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Subversion
10-20-2009, 12:14 AM
I am more than excited for this years draft for the Chiefs. I know we need OL help but luckily for us this years draft has a lot of prospected OL to go in the 2nd-3rd round. It would be hard for me to see an OL drafted in the first round and pass up Berry and Mays.

Berry and Mays are two once in a decade type safeties with comparisons to Reed, Polamalu, Dawkins...and you see what they did for their defenses. I think either one of them (prefer Berry) would give us that playmaker on defense to build around for the next 10 years. Especially while we get the personnel to fill our 3-4.

I'm also loving Jerry Hughes to give us that 3-4 linebacker. He plays a lot like James Harrison, compact build with an insane bull rush. There are probably 4 more 3-4 outside linebackers that could really put of defense over the top. (IF we have one of those elite safeties of course)

AND this years Wide Receiving group is one of the deepest we will ever see. We should without a doubt be able to grab one of them in the draft that will give us a solid #2 to compliment Bowe and keep Wade as our slot along with Bradley. Golden Tate is who I would like to see in red.

OL...we have to use one of our 2nd round picks on one. No question. And it's really nice that we have 2 second rounders.

What do you guys think, I really believe we need that playmaker on defense and I hesitate to take another Dlineman even though there are some monster DT's that could anchor our 3-4.

Vandelay
10-20-2009, 12:18 AM
First 4 picks, O-line.

McLovin
10-20-2009, 12:32 AM
Todd quit coming on here trying to drum up support, just draft the damn o-line. Sheesh.

honda522
10-20-2009, 12:34 AM
I want and offensive line 4 games ago NOW!

Since we talking about Safteys, I like that guy from Texas, don't ask his name cause I don't know. We could pick him up in the second round with the pick from the ATL TG trade.

Subversion
10-20-2009, 01:01 AM
If we load up on offensive line this offseason where does that get us. We could get 5 pro bowl players on offensive line and still lack in so many areas. That would just be a quick fix to one problem on the team. We don't have Priest Holmes, Tony G who were absolute offensive monsters. We have Bowe and Cassel (whom I think will be a lot like Trent Green, not a bad thing). We don't have a legit #1 running back, even in a backfield by committee. Our Linebackers are sub-par for a 3-4 system. We have 0 pass rushers to be honest. (Unless Haley gets over his grudge against D. Johnson) Tyson Jackson was brought in to anchor the Defensive End spot in the run game, not projected a high amount of sacks over his career. A 4-6 sack year for him will be what he was drafted for. We NEED some pass rushers at our linebacker spots. Tambi Hali is going to fit well as a run stopper, but he's no ball hawk or end rusher. I'm really hoping we copy the Steelers defense while we can in this draft. Stud Safety (Berry) pass rushing linebacker (Hughes). And immediately we have a defense that can impact every game.

Oline, we draft one with our 2nd round picks and use one of our later picks on another.

honda522
10-20-2009, 01:09 AM
Ok, so why are we losing now? We are keeping the opposing teams score low, but then we can't score any points ourselves.

Just another way we are getting screwed.

Subversion
10-20-2009, 01:20 AM
We're losing now basically just because we just entered a new era this offseason. Switching to a 3-4 with 3 other teams in the offseason didn't make things easy on us either. Offensively, our oline sucks, nobody can argue that, BUT outside of Bowe, Wade, and Cassel we really don't have weapons to utilize. LJ just doesn't seem like the same runner he used to be, and Jamal Charles, love the kid, but he can't hang onto the ball, if he gets that under control he will be our home run threat since he is a speedster and can catch. And to be honest, I think we will se more moves on defense than offense for a while, just because certain players don't fit the 3-4 mold. And why we have been losing, it seems that 1 big play. Which is due to no pass rush, we can't expect our secondary to not give up big plays when the opposing qb can do whatever he wants. Dorsey and Jackson are getting in the backfield more than anyone else, which is a good thing for them...but not for the team. They show promise to be the BIG 3-4 Dends that we need for the system. 3-4 really only starts working when we get those outside linebackers leading the team in sacks. I.E. Ware, Merriman, Harrison, Porter, Suggs. Our Dline is going to be in place for yeras to come, (not sure about DT with losing Tank though, possible indications that Pioli wants one of those 2 big DT's in this years draft)

kilobytes
10-20-2009, 01:25 AM
If we have 5 pro bowl o line men = almost all problems solved. LJ has still got it, Cassel will be more composed, WR are fine, defense is fine, Special teams is great except punt returner. Charles is doing fine returning kicks and thats where I always wanted him cept the fumble.

Subversion
10-20-2009, 01:32 AM
Our Defense was 29th overall entering Sundays game... I really don't consider that to be fine by any means. LJ is not the same runner, WR, we have 2 that will fit the teams needs. Wade and Bowe. Bradley is a home run type WR with his speed but isn't a #2 by any standard...and has a history of injuries. We need to get that #2. Special Teams, I would love to see a great return man but it's not a pressing need.

5 pro bowl oline men= A #10-15 ranked offense with a bottom 10 defense. No thanks

Again I'm not ignoring Oline at all, but it woudln't make us a playoff team.

jap1
10-20-2009, 01:34 AM
I somewhat disagree with you Subversion. I think with a little improvement in OL, we could turn the team around. A really good OL can make an average RB look great, and a good RB (like I think LJ is) look amazing. A good OL makes a QB look like a genious when he can sit back and pick apart a defense.

On the other hand, I do agree that we are missing that dominating OLB pass rusher that seems to be the foundation of a 3-4 defense. So many holes, it is hard to know where to start.

In all honesty, we can only hope to get 4 starters out of the draft if we are really lucky. It is rare for anyone after the 3rd round to make much of an impact, let alone become a starter.

josh1971
10-20-2009, 01:40 AM
If we have 5 pro bowl o line men = almost all problems solved. LJ has still got it, Cassel will be more composed, WR are fine, defense is fine, Special teams is great except punt returner. Charles is doing fine returning kicks and thats where I always wanted him cept the fumble.


First of all, this fumble-itis thing with Charles is overblown. He's fumbled twice and lost one of them.

Five pro-bowl O-linemen equals another Dick Vermeil-era offense, and without a good defense on the other side of the ball, it would be the same story as then. Score tons of points, rack up tons of yards, and... give up tons of points and yards.

I think we do need some new, stallion O-linemen, but we do need to shore up some more spots on the D as well.

jb

Subversion
10-20-2009, 01:42 AM
I'm one of those defense wins games type of people, obviously Pioli is as well coming from NE. I just don't want to have my heart broke again with an amazing offense and a terrible defense like we had 3 years in a row. Those are the flash teams that get you in the playoffs but nothing more. We took a conversative route last year with Tyson Jackson since he's all but a sure thing with what we are asking of him. It's time to get a few "WOW" factors other than Bowe.

An easy comparison, if you WEREN'T a Chiefs fan, whose Jersey would you want to wear other than Bowe's or possibly Cassel. (I know it's a petty question but what other playmakers do we have?) We're slowly laying the foundation to add those guys to, I just want to see more people ready for some flare on the team and not pass these guys up. (this years draft his kind of deep in oline after the 1st round)...keep that in mind.

Subversion
10-20-2009, 01:44 AM
I agree with the Charles fumblitis being overblown, he's a small scat back though, they are the first type of backs that need to prove they can hold onto the ball or they fall out of favor quickly. I would like to see us use him like the Cowboys use Felix Jones.

kilobytes
10-20-2009, 01:47 AM
First of all, this fumble-itis thing with Charles is overblown. He's fumbled twice and lost one of them.

Five pro-bowl O-linemen equals another Dick Vermeil-era offense, and without a good defense on the other side of the ball, it would be the same story as then. Score tons of points, rack up tons of yards, and... give up tons of points and yards.

I think we do need some new, stallion O-linemen, but we do need to shore up some more spots on the D as well.

jb
I never brought the fumble crap up. I just said he fumbled once on a kick return. BTW he fumbled on a kick return and LOST it. Im not talking of his Running game.
Our defense I think is much better than the Vermeil era. Our D is out there far too much. When it isn't they give up very few points like the Raiders and Redskins games. Plus these guys are only going to get better like Dorsey, Flowers, Hali, Jackson, Carr etc. We just need safties after this year. We can put DJ on the outside or something. I think our D is in better shape than our offense.

If the O line is fixed it will make everything better.

Subversion
10-20-2009, 01:58 AM
DJ is out of favor with Pioli and Haley. He isn't getting playing time as it is.

My ideal draft for next year (I know its early) Is...
1st. Eric Berry S Tenn.
2nd. Jason Fox OT Miami
2nd. Jerry Hughes OLG TCU (look him up)
3. Eric Olsen C/OG/OT (he can play them all, mostly a C or G type player though) ND
4.Micah Johnson MLB, Kentucky or a WR here (so many studs this year...Golden Tate!!!)
5. Vladimir Ducasse, OG/OT, UMass
5. Anybody
6. Anybody

jap1
10-20-2009, 02:28 AM
DJ is out of favor with Pioli and Haley. He isn't getting playing time as it is.

My ideal draft for next year (I know its early) Is...
1st. Eric Berry S Tenn.
2nd. Jason Fox OT Miami
2nd. Jerry Hughes OLG TCU (look him up)
3. Eric Olsen C/OG/OT (he can play them all, mostly a C or G type player though) ND
4.Micah Johnson MLB, Kentucky or a WR here (so many studs this year...Golden Tate!!!)
5. Vladimir Ducasse, OG/OT, UMass
5. Anybody
6. Anybody

I dont know most of those players, because I dont watch college ball much. I couldnt complain too much with that draft (looking at the positions), if we pick up another good OL in FA AND Waters stays with the team.

cam4mav
10-20-2009, 05:00 AM
Since we talking about Safteys, I like that guy from Texas, don't ask his name cause I don't know. We could pick him up in the second round with the pick from the ATL TG trade.
Name is Earl Thomas, he's a RS Soph
Doubt he's coming out though, probably next year, hopefully for Texas fans he will stay for his RS Sr year.
He is money, only 5-10 but has the best reaction time and ball hawking skills I've seen from a Texas DB ever, that includes guys like Aaron Ross, Michael Grififn, Michael Huff, Nathan Vasher and Quentin Jamer.


oh and pray to god the chiefs don't draft any Texas O-lineman this year, they are soft and not that good, despite good measureables

brish
10-20-2009, 07:33 AM
Tambi Hali is going to fit well as a run stopper, but he's no ball hawk or end rusher.

Ehh what??!

You got that all backwards man, he is a pass rusher, and a work in progress in coverage and run stopping.

I appreciate your trying to make your point, but try sticking with the facts.
Fact is that Hali was praised by NY and Dallas as a really good pass rusher.
Fact is that he has been chipped by Backs and TE's every game, and if you watch closely you can see how many penalties opponents should have been called for when they are trying to stop him.

You do make a good point about the safety though, I also think we need a really good one at that position.
Berry and Mays are very intriguing prospects indeed.

However there is the matter of protecting our QB of the future, and a big investment..

honda522
10-20-2009, 12:08 PM
Our Defense was 29th overall entering Sundays game... I really don't consider that to be fine by any means. LJ is not the same runner, WR, we have 2 that will fit the teams needs. Wade and Bowe. Bradley is a home run type WR with his speed but isn't a #2 by any standard...and has a history of injuries. We need to get that #2. Special Teams, I would love to see a great return man but it's not a pressing need.

5 pro bowl oline men= A #10-15 ranked offense with a bottom 10 defense. No thanks

Again I'm not ignoring Oline at all, but it woudln't make us a playoff team.


You do realize that having a great offense is key to having a great defense.

You keep the offense on the field, that is less the defense has to do. Which bring me to my next point. How can you exepect a teams defense to be on the field for 10 mins straight?

Better ol means less 3 and outs and less time for the defense to be on the field.

hometeam
10-20-2009, 12:15 PM
Subversion, the only reason our D is ranked that low, is cause they are on the field 3/4 of the game, becuase our OLINE cant keep the O on the field and go 3 and out.

yashi
10-20-2009, 12:20 PM
Subversion, the only reason our D is ranked that low, is cause they are on the field 3/4 of the game, becuase our OLINE cant keep the O on the field and go 3 and out.

That is not all that true... we are right at the bottom of the league in both yards allowed per rush attempt and yards allowed per pass attempt, so it's not just because the other teams are getting to run a lot of plays.

There are signs of good things to come, but our defense is still terrible right now.

chief31
10-20-2009, 01:00 PM
Our Defense was 29th overall entering Sundays game... I really don't consider that to be fine by any means. LJ is not the same runner,

If the offense is able to even just move the chains a few more times, and keep the other team's offense off the field, just a bit, then you take away one or two possessions from the opponent.

That instantly improves the defensive ranking.


5 pro bowl oline men= A #10-15 ranked offense with a bottom 10 defense. No thanks

Again I'm not ignoring Oline at all, but it woudln't make us a playoff team.

How, exactly, does a good o-line make the defense worse?

Better players makes the team worse? Really? No thanks? Really?

I'm not one to say "top four picks on o-line", but it has been a big problem with this team since Roaf retired.

And aquiring a top-flight LOT should be priority one. This gives us back one of the top OG prospects (Brandon Albert) and allows this offense to help it's defense, by giving the opponent fewer opportunities to score.

The type of team that you seem to be wanting tends to only works when you can run the ball. How is that o-line doing in run-blocking?

Not that I trust Haley can get a running game going with five HOF blockers. But that is a different issue.

I don't mind a defensive team. Not in the least. But you have to be able to move the ball when you have it. And that requires blockers.

You can take Wayne Bowe, Matt Cassel and Larry Johnson, as long as you give me a strong o-line. I'll just use that o-line to create my own QB, RB and WRs.

LJ is a shining example of what happens when you have a top-notch skill position player without blockers. Nothing.

Subversion
10-20-2009, 04:43 PM
If the offense is able to even just move the chains a few more times, and keep the other team's offense off the field, just a bit, then you take away one or two possessions from the opponent.

That instantly improves the defensive ranking.

How does that instantly improve a defense that has been exposed by two teams 2 minute drill. That alone should show you where we are lacking when a RESTED defense gets lit up. (Although I'm not a fan of Pendergast as DC) Our defense is rancid, and will be unless we bring people in to fit the scheme. It's not easy to go from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and expect all of our old Chief favorite players to fit in and produce.


How, exactly, does a good o-line make the defense worse?

Better players makes the team worse? Really? No thanks? Really?

If you're going to try to debate with me, at least don't make things up I've never said. Our defense is already in the bottom 10 in the league...how is that going to improve..just because we have an offense that can produce?...Why does that sound so familiar? Oh yeah...Dick Vermeil??? Playoff tease again....not for me.



LJ is a shining example of what happens when you have a top-notch skill position player without blockers. Nothing.

LJ a top notch skill position player?...I think those days are done for him...we heavily abused him for 2 seasons. Nobody can expect a back to carry that many times with the defensive players in the league now.

And Tamba Hali...he was drafted as a 4-3 D-end to concentrate on run blocking. Bringing in the new 3-4 scheme we had NO other options but to move him. DO I hope he turns into a legitimate pass rusher...well of course BUT the facts are he lacks in speed AND is terrible in coverage...He's a hustle player, so I'm hoping they find a place for him...either way he's going to get his chances to prove himself since we don't have a lot of options right now.

Name other 3-4 Defenses in the league that DON'T have a top notch pass OLB, a run stopper in the middle (Vrabel will do while he plays) and someone that can drop back?

Signed:
We need the right personnel!

kilobytes
10-20-2009, 06:03 PM
LJ has still got it if the O line could at least make even a small hole. I have never seen a strong and fast RB hit holes with authority like LJ has. LJ still has speed its just he can never get to it because the O line. He is not quick like charles but he is fast. Not break away speed though. Priest Holmes never impressed me like LJ has. Looking back on videos im still impressed by LJ. I don't think LJ has lost it hardly at all. He's a big guy with great durability. I think we can squeeze maybe 2 more years out of him. Hes not a typical HB.

Coach
10-20-2009, 10:27 PM
Purely based on principle, I will not get too involved in this thread until much later in the season. I will say that I would prefer the Chiefs to address the OL through free-agency with proven lineman. Spend some money.

I'd rather see the 2010 draft picks used on impact offensive players and defensive players. WR, NT, S, CB, LB are all needs.

chief31
10-22-2009, 06:55 AM
How does that instantly improve a defense that has been exposed by two teams 2 minute drill. That alone should show you where we are lacking when a RESTED defense gets lit up. (Although I'm not a fan of Pendergast as DC) Our defense is rancid, and will be unless we bring people in to fit the scheme. It's not easy to go from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and expect all of our old Chief favorite players to fit in and produce.



If you're going to try to debate with me, at least don't make things up I've never said. Our defense is already in the bottom 10 in the league...how is that going to improve..just because we have an offense that can produce?...Why does that sound so familiar? Oh yeah...Dick Vermeil??? Playoff tease again....not for me.



LJ a top notch skill position player?...I think those days are done for him...we heavily abused him for 2 seasons. Nobody can expect a back to carry that many times with the defensive players in the league now.

And Tamba Hali...he was drafted as a 4-3 D-end to concentrate on run blocking. Bringing in the new 3-4 scheme we had NO other options but to move him. DO I hope he turns into a legitimate pass rusher...well of course BUT the facts are he lacks in speed AND is terrible in coverage...He's a hustle player, so I'm hoping they find a place for him...either way he's going to get his chances to prove himself since we don't have a lot of options right now.

Name other 3-4 Defenses in the league that DON'T have a top notch pass OLB, a run stopper in the middle (Vrabel will do while he plays) and someone that can drop back?

Signed:
We need the right personnel!


Purely based on principle, I will not get too involved in this thread until much later in the season. I will say that I would prefer the Chiefs to address the OL through free-agency with proven lineman. Spend some money.

I'd rather see the 2010 draft picks used on impact offensive players and defensive players. WR, NT, S, CB, LB are all needs.

Proven?

The only proven o-linemen that become available in free agency are proven to be mediocre, or poor. There is generally one OG that becomes available, to the highest bidder, whos is proven to be any good.

However, if this offseason becomes an exception to that trend, then I'm all for it.

fairladyZ
10-22-2009, 02:30 PM
I think our defense is BETTER than it has been but still not top notch. I think our D is exposed by the inept offense for sure. I don't know the exact stats but i think when our D is fresh like the start of the game and start at half we've only been scored at the beginning by one team i think?

Now do i think we are a top ten defense? no but with a offense giving the D more rest i think we are a middle of the pack defense. I definetly think we need to get a NT and another Safety that can cause havoc in the middle of the field. And i think we need to put DJ in the center with mays, anyone else see him knock the redskins guard square on his *** when he came in on a blitz? I would also like DJ on the outside where vrabel is and mix up which side the rush is coming from with Hali. I think DJ and hali's speed on the edge and their strength would suprise some people.

i think a couple moves on D and a couple moves on the O line this team is a deep playoff team. we are getting there, just couple more pieces to the puzzle

70 chiefsfan70
10-23-2009, 11:40 AM
With the donks and the bolts getting better,in order to stay competitive,we do not have enough draft picks to fill all our needs without either ol, wr, olb,or safety from free agency

honda522
10-23-2009, 12:20 PM
The past few years we only have drafted defense. The defense is stable enough, we now need to work on our offense.

OPLookn
10-23-2009, 03:28 PM
It comes down to a simple fact, if we draft defense again our o-line and offense short of spending a ton of money in the offseason will continue to suck.

Putting points up on the board is what puts butts in the seat. Because people will always come out to see if we can outscore the other team...look at 05 and 06. While I want this team to be good you can't blindly continue to say fix the d, fix the d while ignoring the o. If they ignore the o to long no one will come to the games because no matter how good the defense is three field goals is still more than a pick 6.

They have to address the o this draft and then use one or two mid to late picks for the d and then acquire a few proven d players from FA in the off season. Just my two cents, I'll take my change now please.

chief31
10-25-2009, 09:20 PM
How does that instantly improve a defense that has been exposed by two teams 2 minute drill. That alone should show you where we are lacking when a RESTED defense gets lit up. (Although I'm not a fan of Pendergast as DC) Our defense is rancid, and will be unless we bring people in to fit the scheme. It's not easy to go from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and expect all of our old Chief favorite players to fit in and produce.



If you're going to try to debate with me, at least don't make things up I've never said. Our defense is already in the bottom 10 in the league...how is that going to improve..just because we have an offense that can produce?...Why does that sound so familiar? Oh yeah...Dick Vermeil??? Playoff tease again....not for me.

Prior to today's game...

Offense YPG - KC (30th)
Defense - KC (29th)

I'm sorry. It's pretty obvious that which of those is the problem?

I'll just continue below...

LJ a top notch skill position player?...I think those days are done for him...we heavily abused him for 2 seasons. Nobody can expect a back to carry that many times with the defensive players in the league now.

He's just fine. But poor quality of blockers and an offensive system that just does not get rushing yards could be a problem.

And Tamba Hali...he was drafted as a 4-3 D-end to concentrate on run blocking. Bringing in the new 3-4 scheme we had NO other options but to move him. DO I hope he turns into a legitimate pass rusher...well of course BUT the facts are he lacks in speed AND is terrible in coverage...He's a hustle player, so I'm hoping they find a place for him...either way he's going to get his chances to prove himself since we don't have a lot of options right now.

This must have been directed to someone else, because I am not on any Hali bandwagon right now.

Although, we do already have the OLB that you are looking for. You can find him being punished with benchtime, of late.

Name other 3-4 Defenses in the league that DON'T have a top notch pass OLB, a run stopper in the middle (Vrabel will do while he plays) and someone that can drop back?

Pssst. Vrabel is an OLB. :D

Signed:
We need the right personnel!

...Anyway, this is how a good o-line improves your defense...

Let's say your offense is having a hard time moving the ball...We'll just put your offensive TOP (Time Of Posession) at 28:00. (30:00 would be exactly half of the game, and exactly average)

What that means is that your defense is on the field for 32:00 per game.

This is likely to make for a pretty bad team.

Now, we replace that o-line with better players...

Now, you are able to convert on 3rd down more often, meaning that your offense gets more plays to run. Let's say they are good enough to to go from bad (28:00 TOP) to good. (32:00TOP)

What this does is lowers the number of plays, and amount of time on the field that your defense is expected to do their jobs. Now, they are only on the field for 28:00 instead of the previous 32:00.

If the defense is the same, except for that factor, which defense is likey to do better, over the course of the season?

Please consider that the defense that plays with a poor offense has four more minutes per game (16 games) for a total of 64 minutes more. With that 64 minutes, do you think that they might give up a little more yardage, even some points, perhaps?

Now... the same can be done in reverse. A defense that gets off the field quickly gives their offense more opportunites.

But to sit and act like you don't understand how an improved offense helps their defense out is just silly.

One more thing...

I didn't make up anything that you didn't say.


5 pro bowl oline men= A #10-15 ranked offense with a bottom 10 defense.

You actually posted that. Somehow coming to the conclusion that having great o-linemen "=" a bottom 10 defense.

Either own what you post or admit an error. But don't act like I fabricated it.

kilobytes
10-28-2009, 06:50 PM
...Anyway, this is how a good o-line improves your defense...

Let's say your offense is having a hard time moving the ball...We'll just put your offensive TOP (Time Of Posession) at 28:00. (30:00 would be exactly half of the game, and exactly average)

What that means is that your defense is on the field for 32:00 per game.

This is likely to make for a pretty bad team.

Now, we replace that o-line with better players...

Now, you are able to convert on 3rd down more often, meaning that your offense gets more plays to run. Let's say they are good enough to to go from bad (28:00 TOP) to good. (32:00TOP)

What this does is lowers the number of plays, and amount of time on the field that your defense is expected to do their jobs. Now, they are only on the field for 28:00 instead of the previous 32:00.

If the defense is the same, except for that factor, which defense is likey to do better, over the course of the season?

Please consider that the defense that plays with a poor offense has four more minutes per game (16 games) for a total of 64 minutes more. With that 64 minutes, do you think that they might give up a little more yardage, even some points, perhaps?

Now... the same can be done in reverse. A defense that gets off the field quickly gives their offense more opportunites.

But to sit and act like you don't understand how an improved offense helps their defense out is just silly.

One more thing...

I didn't make up anything that you didn't say.



You actually posted that. Somehow coming to the conclusion that having great o-linemen "=" a bottom 10 defense.

Either own what you post or admit an error. But don't act like I fabricated it.
Like my sig? Once the O line problem is somehow solved it will make everything better. Some things will need tweaking though.