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pbatrucker
10-27-2009, 06:52 AM
A comparison of Curry and Jackson.
Total tackes: solo: asst: sacks: fumbles:
Jackson:
5 3 2 0 0

Curry:
37 33 4 2 2

I hope Jackson gets better. Gilberry is more productive at this point.

chief31
10-27-2009, 07:43 AM
Playing 3-4 DE is so much different, statistically, from other defensive positions.

The Pittsburgh Steelers have long been recognized as the most effective 3-4 defense in The NFL. So they would be the perfect team to look at, to find out how a 3-4 DE performs, statistically.

Brett Keisel has been a starter at DE for The Steelers for awhile now.


2009 (7 games, 7 starts)


Total tackles - 26
Sacks - 1
Forced Fumbles - 1


2008 (10 games, 10 starts)


Total tackles - 41
Sacks - 1
Forced Fumbles - 0


2007 (16 games, 16 starts)


Total tackles - 39
Sacks - 2
Forced Fumbles - 0

On the other side they have had Aaron Smith.


2009 (5 games, 5 starts)


Total tackles - 9
Sacks - 2
Forced Fumbles - 0


2008 (16 games, 16 starts)


Total tackles - 60
Sacks - 5.5
Forced Fumbles - 0


2007 (11 games, 11 starts)


Total tackles - 21
Sacks - 2.5
Forced Fumbles - 0

Ever heard of either of those guys? Good 3-4 DEs don't get their name mentioned all too often.

So comparing Jackson to these numbers would be far more telling for the position he plays. Eventhough these two guys could easily be considered the best 3-4 DEs in the league.

Now I agree that Jackson has been underperforming. But not to the degree that some would like to think.

I'll also agree that Curry has exceeded expectations.

But Jackson has not been completely horrible. And this is 1/3 of the way through his first season.

While I despise the pick, where we did select him, I hold no ill will toward Jackson for that, and hope that he will become a mainstay on this defense for years to come.

garciakcfan
10-27-2009, 10:04 AM
comparing a lb to a 3-4 de not fair and you cant compare the two..... i did see jackson get his *** blown off the ball a few times last week... but he's there to take on the double teams and run defense... not only that d-line is one of the hardest positions to make the transition from college to pros

yashi
10-27-2009, 10:17 AM
I don't ever cast judgement DL players their first year, just like I didn't with Dorsey and now he's playing pretty well even though he's out of position.

Jackson has been completely horrible to this point though. He has only 5 tackles, and he is a starter on a defense that is usually on the field most of the game. I don't really recall the last time I saw him in the backfield on a play. The Steelers DEs have sacks, which tells me they're at least getting into the backfield. Jackson is relatively invisible out there on defense.

But again, although he has played bad up to this point I still think he will be a pretty good player in the long run. Curry will probably be a pro bowler for years to come though, which is unfortunate because we'll probably be bringing him up a lot in the coming years if our defense doesn't improve drastically.

Of course I wish we had Curry. I think with the money top 5 picks get, those players need to be superstars.

garciakcfan
10-27-2009, 10:22 AM
I don't ever cast judgement DL players their first year, just like I didn't with Dorsey and now he's playing pretty well even though he's out of position.

Jackson has been completely horrible to this point though. He has only 5 tackles, and he is a starter on a defense that is usually on the field most of the game. I don't really recall the last time I saw him in the backfield on a play. The Steelers DEs have sacks, which tells me they're at least getting into the backfield. Jackson is relatively invisible out there on defense.

But again, although he has played bad up to this point I still think he will be a pretty good player in the long run. Curry will probably be a pro bowler for years to come though, which is unfortunate because we'll probably be bringing him up a lot in the coming years if our defense doesn't improve drastically.

Of course I wish we had Curry. I think with the money top 5 picks get, those players need to be superstars.

agreed but mario williams didnt really do too much his 1st year either and hes more of a pass rusher

Subversion
10-27-2009, 11:58 AM
Playing 3-4 DE is so much different, statistically, from other defensive positions.

The Pittsburgh Steelers have long been recognized as the most effective 3-4 defense in The NFL. So they would be the perfect team to look at, to find out how a 3-4 DE performs, statistically.

Brett Keisel has been a starter at DE for The Steelers for awhile now.


2009 (7 games, 7 starts)


Total tackles - 26
Sacks - 1
Forced Fumbles - 1


2008 (10 games, 10 starts)


Total tackles - 41
Sacks - 1
Forced Fumbles - 0


2007 (16 games, 16 starts)


Total tackles - 39
Sacks - 2
Forced Fumbles - 0

On the other side they have had Aaron Smith.


2009 (5 games, 5 starts)


Total tackles - 9
Sacks - 2
Forced Fumbles - 0


2008 (16 games, 16 starts)


Total tackles - 60
Sacks - 5.5
Forced Fumbles - 0


2007 (11 games, 11 starts)


Total tackles - 21
Sacks - 2.5
Forced Fumbles - 0

Ever heard of either of those guys? Good 3-4 DEs don't get their name mentioned all too often.

So comparing Jackson to these numbers would be far more telling for the position he plays. Eventhough these two guys could easily be considered the best 3-4 DEs in the league.

Now I agree that Jackson has been underperforming. But not to the degree that some would like to think.

I'll also agree that Curry has exceeded expectations.

But Jackson has not been completely horrible. And this is 1/3 of the way through his first season.

While I despise the pick, where we did select him, I hold no ill will toward Jackson for that, and hope that he will become a mainstay on this defense for years to come.

Agreed. Great example using the Steelers and giving an idea of what the 3-4 is. I just want to add 1 thing. Smith and Keisel are considered some of the best 3-4 DE yet you don't hear of them because they don't get those "sexy" sack numbers. Check out Pittsburghs linebacking core over the years. Joey Porter, James Harrison, Lamar Woodley, and now Lawrence Timmons. These guys get the glory since the D-line of Hampton, Keisel, and Smith occupy the line so the Linebackers can make the plays.

Tyson Jackson will work out and the same goes with Glen Dorsey. If we get a legit NT somewhere down the road almost any linebacker with a pass rush will shine. Pioli loves to build the line with a big DE...I.E. Richard Seymour. While I agree Curry would have been the better value for the pick, I'm sure we will get a stud linebacker that will make you forget all about him and will be thankful that we have such a BIG D-line.

yashi
10-27-2009, 12:06 PM
Agreed. Great example using the Steelers and giving an idea of what the 3-4 is. I just want to add 1 thing. Smith and Keisel are considered some of the best 3-4 DE yet you don't hear of them because they don't get those "sexy" sack numbers. Check out Pittsburghs linebacking core over the years. Joey Porter, James Harrison, Lamar Woodley, and now Lawrence Timmons. These guys get the glory since the D-line of Hampton, Keisel, and Smith occupy the line so the Linebackers can make the plays.

Tyson Jackson will work out and the same goes with Glen Dorsey. If we get a legit NT somewhere down the road almost any linebacker with a pass rush will shine. Pioli loves to build the line with a big DE...I.E. Richard Seymour. While I agree Curry would have been the better value for the pick, I'm sure we will get a stud linebacker that will make you forget all about him and will be thankful that we have such a BIG D-line.

While I agree that if our front 3 is good then our linebackers will look a lot better, we do need to get better pass rushers in here. Hali is pretty good, but Vrabel looks incredible slow coming off the edge and doesn't seem to have any explosion. If he is around longer than this season I think he'll need to be moved inside in favor of someone we bring in during the offseason.

I'm not a fan of Terrance Cody, but I think if he's there for us to take in the 2nd round then we have to jump all over it. That would take our NT from 315 to a cool 365 and add some serious beef on the line. I'd rather have Wilfork if an opportunity comes up for us to get him at a reasonable price.

Seek
10-27-2009, 12:33 PM
While I agree that if our front 3 is good then our linebackers will look a lot better, we do need to get better pass rushers in here. Hali is pretty good, but Vrabel looks incredible slow coming off the edge and doesn't seem to have any explosion. If he is around longer than this season I think he'll need to be moved inside in favor of someone we bring in during the offseason.

I'm not a fan of Terrance Cody, but I think if he's there for us to take in the 2nd round then we have to jump all over it. That would take our NT from 315 to a cool 365 and add some serious beef on the line. I'd rather have Wilfork if an opportunity comes up for us to get him at a reasonable price.

If we don't address the offensive line with both the first or second pick, and take another D lineman instead... My head will explode.

We are not getting beat up the middle for runs. It is on the oustide. Don't need a NT to fix that.

honda522
10-27-2009, 12:37 PM
Not to burst your bubble, but LB is different than DE. ;)

Bike
10-27-2009, 02:56 PM
We need at least 3 offensive linemen and 2 safties. Stat.

Coach
10-27-2009, 05:21 PM
We need at least 3 offensive linemen and 2 safties. Stat.

Can we also add a CB(Carr got abused this weekend), WR(our best WR can't catch the ball), and now a RB(LJ has left the building) to that list?

Chiefster
10-27-2009, 05:24 PM
I thought this was going to be another marijuana thread. :D

Bike
10-27-2009, 05:27 PM
Can we also add a CB(Carr got abused this weekend), WR(our best WR can't catch the ball), and now a RB(LJ has left the building) to that list?
Absolutely. But if I was to prioritize, I'd go OL, safety, wr, nt, rb, cb.
Sheez, we basically need a new team. Its looking like 3 years at least to the playoffs...

Chiefster
10-27-2009, 05:30 PM
Absolutely. But if I was to prioritize, I'd go OL, safety, wr, nt, rb, cb.
Sheez, we basically need a new team. Its looking like 3 years at least to the playoffs...

...If not more.

kilobytes
10-27-2009, 05:40 PM
Playing 3-4 DE is so much different, statistically, from other defensive positions.

The Pittsburgh Steelers have long been recognized as the most effective 3-4 defense in The NFL. So they would be the perfect team to look at, to find out how a 3-4 DE performs, statistically.

Brett Keisel has been a starter at DE for The Steelers for awhile now.


2009 (7 games, 7 starts)


Total tackles - 26
Sacks - 1
Forced Fumbles - 1


2008 (10 games, 10 starts)


Total tackles - 41
Sacks - 1
Forced Fumbles - 0


2007 (16 games, 16 starts)


Total tackles - 39
Sacks - 2
Forced Fumbles - 0

On the other side they have had Aaron Smith.


2009 (5 games, 5 starts)


Total tackles - 9
Sacks - 2
Forced Fumbles - 0


2008 (16 games, 16 starts)


Total tackles - 60
Sacks - 5.5
Forced Fumbles - 0


2007 (11 games, 11 starts)


Total tackles - 21
Sacks - 2.5
Forced Fumbles - 0

Ever heard of either of those guys? Good 3-4 DEs don't get their name mentioned all too often.

So comparing Jackson to these numbers would be far more telling for the position he plays. Eventhough these two guys could easily be considered the best 3-4 DEs in the league.

Now I agree that Jackson has been underperforming. But not to the degree that some would like to think.

I'll also agree that Curry has exceeded expectations.

But Jackson has not been completely horrible. And this is 1/3 of the way through his first season.

While I despise the pick, where we did select him, I hold no ill will toward Jackson for that, and hope that he will become a mainstay on this defense for years to come.
True

Canada
10-27-2009, 09:31 PM
I thought this was going to be another marijuana thread. :Dpssst....over here:D

Ryfo18
10-27-2009, 11:28 PM
Just checking out Seymour's first year numbers:

13 games, 10 starts

Solo: 25
Assist: 20
SK: 3
FF: 0

Jackson is quite a bit off the pace for 45 tackles. Granted, Seymour had a better core around him (Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinest). Like any pick, it will likely take a few years before we can get a good evaluation on him.

tornadospotter
10-27-2009, 11:35 PM
pssst....over here:D











:SmokinBanana:

Where did all the smileys go? Coach! what did you do to them.

Chiefster
10-28-2009, 12:37 AM
pssst....over here:D


:SmokinBanana:

Where did all the smileys go? Coach! what did you do to them.

:lol:

pbatrucker
10-28-2009, 02:00 AM
Playing 3-4 DE is so much different, statistically, from other defensive positions.

The Pittsburgh Steelers have long been recognized as the most effective 3-4 defense in The NFL. So they would be the perfect team to look at, to find out how a 3-4 DE performs, statistically.

Brett Keisel has been a starter at DE for The Steelers for awhile now.


2009 (7 games, 7 starts)


Total tackles - 26
Sacks - 1
Forced Fumbles - 1


2008 (10 games, 10 starts)


Total tackles - 41
Sacks - 1
Forced Fumbles - 0


2007 (16 games, 16 starts)


Total tackles - 39
Sacks - 2
Forced Fumbles - 0

On the other side they have had Aaron Smith.


2009 (5 games, 5 starts)


Total tackles - 9
Sacks - 2
Forced Fumbles - 0


2008 (16 games, 16 starts)


Total tackles - 60
Sacks - 5.5
Forced Fumbles - 0


2007 (11 games, 11 starts)


Total tackles - 21
Sacks - 2.5
Forced Fumbles - 0

Ever heard of either of those guys? Good 3-4 DEs don't get their name mentioned all too often.

So comparing Jackson to these numbers would be far more telling for the position he plays. Eventhough these two guys could easily be considered the best 3-4 DEs in the league.

Now I agree that Jackson has been underperforming. But not to the degree that some would like to think.

I'll also agree that Curry has exceeded expectations.

But Jackson has not been completely horrible. And this is 1/3 of the way through his first season.

While I despise the pick, where we did select him, I hold no ill will toward Jackson for that, and hope that he will become a mainstay on this defense for years to come.
I wasn't asking for a lecture on a subject that I know quite well. I was simply pointing out that one is performing and the other is not. Now I don't have the stats to see how many times Jackson has had the play come his way, but 3 solo tackles and 2 asst. are not good.

Chiefster
10-28-2009, 02:07 AM
I wasn't asking for a lecture on a subject that I know quite well. I was simply pointing out that one is performing and the other is not. Now I don't have the stats to see how many times Jackson has had the play come his way, but 3 solo tackles and 2 asst. are not good.

I'll betcha that chief31 could supply those stats for ya. :D

bigpoppachief
10-28-2009, 11:16 AM
Well if we cut LJ that will free money up so give Vilfork what ever he wants :D

pbatrucker
10-28-2009, 11:44 AM
:yahoo:
Well if we cut LJ that will free money up so give Vilfork what ever he wants :D
:yahoo: Sounds good!!!

chief31
11-02-2009, 05:05 AM
I don't ever cast judgement DL players their first year, just like I didn't with Dorsey and now he's playing pretty well even though he's out of position.

Jackson has been completely horrible to this point though. He has only 5 tackles, and he is a starter on a defense that is usually on the field most of the game. I don't really recall the last time I saw him in the backfield on a play. The Steelers DEs have sacks, which tells me they're at least getting into the backfield. Jackson is relatively invisible out there on defense.

But again, although he has played bad up to this point I still think he will be a pretty good player in the long run. Curry will probably be a pro bowler for years to come though, which is unfortunate because we'll probably be bringing him up a lot in the coming years if our defense doesn't improve drastically.

Of course I wish we had Curry. I think with the money top 5 picks get, those players need to be superstars.

The Steelers' DEs get sacks?

Let me see...

In the 32 (Smith) and 33 (Keisel) games, over the past three seasons, that I looked up stats for them...

Keisel, in 33 games, had a total of 4 sacks. Approximately one sack per 8 games.

While Smith, in 32 games, had 10. Approximately one sack per 3 games.

If you average between the two (14 sacks in 65 games) then it comes out to around one sack per five games, from long term starters in the best 3-4 in the league.

At one sack per five games, man is Jackson ever horrible, having played six games without a sack.

Errrr, wait. Kiesel only gets one about every 8 games. So, is Keisel garbage?

Again, I'm cerainly not saying that Jackson is doing fine. Just that stats mean nearly nothing at the position.




I wasn't asking for a lecture on a subject that I know quite well. I was simply pointing out that one is performing and the other is not. Now I don't have the stats to see how many times Jackson has had the play come his way, but 3 solo tackles and 2 asst. are not good.

You were directly comparing the stats of a 3-4 DE to those of a LB. So, by my calculations, you were asking for a lecture. :D

But seriously, I agree that Jackson is under-performing. But that stats just aren't the way to measure a 3-4 DE.

"Making the plays" is not what is generally expected from a 3-4 DE.

hometeam
11-02-2009, 09:38 AM
While I am not disputing any of what is being said, it brings a point to mind.

How DO you measure a 3-4 DE statwise? rushing defense total? total rushing on his side of the field?

Isawa_mo
11-02-2009, 10:11 AM
While I doubt there is a 100% stat you can look at. I imagine looking at who the leading tacklers on a team are helps determine how effective the three up front are. That is, if your team's leading tacklers/sackers are LB, then its safe to assume the front three are doing some things right. If its safties, then they are probably not, because it means the OL is getting to the LB level and making blocks.