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pbatrucker
04-03-2010, 01:31 PM
Chiefs GM Scott Pioli's Seven Draft Day Criteria - Arrowhead Pride (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2010/4/3/1402945/chiefs-gm-scott-pioli-draft-day)

whatwasthat?
04-03-2010, 02:24 PM
3. Pioli will draft players who meet the criteria: a) they have the ability to perform at a high level and b) they play a position of deepest need on the team.
"Do you draft players based upon ability or team need?" To which Pioli responded:

I have always felt that it is a combination of those two things. Some teams do things based purely on need, other teams do it based on what they think is the best player available. I think it is a combination of those two things. You have to take into account who’s the best player available and also what your needs are. I’ll go back to a situation years ago: on our roster we had a certain position that we had a large number of players and we kept passing a player up that we felt was the best player available. We also felt we had a strong number of players at that particular position but there comes a point in time where you have to mesh those two things together and do a combination of best player and needs.



Eric Berry much?

Ryfo18
04-03-2010, 02:31 PM
3. Pioli will draft players who meet the criteria: a) they have the ability to perform at a high level and b) they play a position of deepest need on the team.
"Do you draft players based upon ability or team need?" To which Pioli responded:
I have always felt that it is a combination of those two things. Some teams do things based purely on need, other teams do it based on what they think is the best player available. I think it is a combination of those two things. You have to take into account who’s the best player available and also what your needs are. I’ll go back to a situation years ago: on our roster we had a certain position that we had a large number of players and we kept passing a player up that we felt was the best player available. We also felt we had a strong number of players at that particular position but there comes a point in time where you have to mesh those two things together and do a combination of best player and needs.



Eric Berry much?


Not really....2nd fewest sacks and 2nd most rushing yards given up in the league. Not really the highest need at safety.

Fansincebirth
04-05-2010, 05:00 PM
Not really....2nd fewest sacks and 2nd most rushing yards given up in the league. Not really the highest need at safety.
The reason we had so few sacks is because QB's were getting ride of the ball in 2 to 2.5 seconds. There has to be some coverage if you have any hope to get a sack. QB's seldome get sacked when they get ride of the ball in under 3 seconds. Many of the rushing yards will deminish as our new coaches continue to develope our young defense.

Ryfo18
04-05-2010, 05:04 PM
The reason we had so few sacks is because QB's were getting ride of the ball in 2 to 2.5 seconds. There has to be some coverage if you have any hope to get a sack. QB's seldome get sacked when they get ride of the ball in under 3 seconds. Many of the rushing yards will deminish as our new coaches continue to develope our young defense.

I think you made that up. Sure it's true part of the time, but I don't think our coverage was that horrendous that every play the QB was throwing quick routes. It was one of the better aspects of our team last year (still not good). But I still think it gets way better with a better pass rush.

slimdagreat
04-05-2010, 05:50 PM
Not really....2nd fewest sacks and 2nd most rushing yards given up in the league. Not really the highest need at safety.

Instead of looking at the stats in vacuum, you should look at them objectively.

Teams scored 25 Passing TDs on us last season, and 18 rushing TDs. Plus we were the 3rd most ran against team in the league. Add to that the fact that we were outscored 29-93 in the 1st quarter and 325-262 the other 3 quarters combined.

What that tells me is that teams got up on us passing the ball early, and then ran the clock out late in the game.

You get a safety to go with Carr and Flowers and teams aren't going into the 4th with a 3 TD lead, so they can't run the clock down on us.

Ryfo18
04-06-2010, 01:24 AM
Instead of looking at the stats in vacuum, you should look at them objectively.

Teams scored 25 Passing TDs on us last season, and 18 rushing TDs. Plus we were the 3rd most ran against team in the league. Add to that the fact that we were outscored 29-93 in the 1st quarter and 325-262 the other 3 quarters combined.

What that tells me is that teams got up on us passing the ball early, and then ran the clock out late in the game.

You get a safety to go with Carr and Flowers and teams aren't going into the 4th with a 3 TD lead, so they can't run the clock down on us.

I understand what you are saying. I just think the pass rush is pathetic. That's going to fix the pass D more so than Berry in my opinion.

Connie Jo
04-06-2010, 02:09 AM
You also have factor's contributing such as defenses are becoming stronger, quicker, & tougher...QB's are adjusting to this knowing they have to get rid of the ball quicker than ever. As well, but in contradiction I realize...OL's are also getting stronger, quicker, & tougher...making it more difficult for a defense to rush the QB, make sacks.

I pay no attention at all to last seasons stats putting us at the bottom...last season had too many negative contributing factor's to rely on stats alone as being truth for what was...playbook thrown out, OC fired, new GM, HC & DC, etc..

Obviously it was felt that Pendergast wasn't effective as DC, he was fired after one season...yet most of our notable name defensive players have been retained. That tells me that Pioli & Haley also believe the talent & ability already exists on the Chiefs team, & will emerge with negative factor's eliminated, such as the firing of Pendergast & hiring of Crennel.

Peyton Manning get's sacked, but his long pass game ability still wins games...so do other QB's with notable long pass talent. Long pass play calls appear to me to be making a comeback...appearing more & more in games these days among teams in the NFL. Possibly this is due to stronger defenses ability to stop the rushing game more often than not. We need to stop the long pass play as much as we do the rush & short pass (WCO).

We lost games we shouldn't have, but it wasn't because of the defense alone, not being able to stop the opponents rushing game, nor the inability to sack QB's. We lost as a result of many contributing factor's...including dropped passes by WR's, fumbles, and a playbook being thrown out with the early season firing of Gailey didn't help either. Then Bowe was suspended...on & on, so many factor's to consider last season. Still...we didn't do as bad as our stats & record indicate, we weren't 'that' bad all factor's considered...read below:

"The Chiefs fielded one of the NFL's youngest teams (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/4447/three-of-nine-oldest-teams-in-nfc-west) a year ago. And it showed. While KC did improve from 2008 to 2009 (2-14 in 2008 to 4-12 in 2009), fans were left thinking of what could have been. Six of the Chiefs twelve losses were by seven points or less. Seemingly, the biggest obstacle the Chiefs young core of players had was the inability to perform at a consistent level throughout the entirety of a game, much less a season. Young, talented players need maturation. Maturation takes time. All that young talent was able to keep Kansas City in the game, but wasn't able to close those games out. Growing pains.

DC_Chiefsfan
04-06-2010, 08:05 AM
Blown pass coverage = Vrabel and Hali. Vrabel is good against the run and Hali is a great pass rusher, but neither are very effective in man or zone coverage. This is where our pass coverage fails. With Jarrad Page back there and healthy and Crennel coaching up DuJuan Morgan or safeties won't be too terrible. But they will be good enough to avoid drafting a free safety with our 5th overall pick. We need D lineman and linebackers. Not to mention we'll pick up another CB at some point in the draft and Legget will move to safety adding some quickness and depth along with our 2nd round rookie.

AussieChiefsFan
04-06-2010, 09:18 AM
IMO drafting TJ last year at @3 was a mistake. IMO he isn't a top 10 player. I still stay they should've got Curry. What is one position in need this year? Linebacker!!!!! How strong is the draft class this year for the D-line? VERY!!!!

slimdagreat
04-06-2010, 11:32 AM
I understand what you are saying. I just think the pass rush is pathetic. That's going to fix the pass D more so than Berry in my opinion.

I don't think Dan Williams will help much in the pass rush. I agree with you 10000% that the pass rush outside of Hali is god awful, but if the pieces aren't there in the 1st then I think you have to take the best player available

KristofLaw
04-06-2010, 10:04 PM
IMO drafting TJ last year at @3 was a mistake. IMO he isn't a top 10 player. I still stay they should've got Curry. What is one position in need this year? Linebacker!!!!! How strong is the draft class this year for the D-line? VERY!!!!

Actually, I remain extremely disappointed that we didn't pick up one of the big three linebackers that came out of USC. Taylor Mays is not a reach late in the first or early in the second. Mr Pioli should make this happen this year.

jap1
04-06-2010, 11:09 PM
IMO drafting TJ last year at @3 was a mistake. IMO he isn't a top 10 player. I still stay they should've got Curry. What is one position in need this year? Linebacker!!!!! How strong is the draft class this year for the D-line? VERY!!!!

I disagree that this is a deep draft for DL. Actually, let me correct that, it IS a deep draft for DL at every position except NT. There are only 3 NTs that are expected to make any impact in the league: D. Williams, T. Cody, and C. Thomas.

Xanathol
04-07-2010, 01:59 PM
QB Pressures per Profootballfocus.com:

3-4 DEs
#8 Glenn Dorsey
#24 Tyson Jackson

DT/NT
#12 Ron Edwards

3-4 OLB
#2 Tamba Hali
#13 Mike Vrabel

ILB
#6 Derrick Johnson
#43 Corey Mays


In other words, besides getting another ILB ( which most folks agree is a need for KC ), the pass rush is pretty good, however, it can't get there before the ball is released, ie. the coverage is lacking. To support this, the highest ranked KC safety in coverage rankings on that site is Jarrad Page, at #53.

chief31
04-07-2010, 04:07 PM
QB Pressures per Profootballfocus.com:

3-4 DEs
#8 Glenn Dorsey
#24 Tyson Jackson

DT/NT
#12 Ron Edwards

3-4 OLB
#2 Tamba Hali
#13 Mike Vrabel

ILB
#6 Derrick Johnson
#43 Corey Mays


In other words, besides getting another ILB ( which most folks agree is a need for KC ), the pass rush is pretty good, however, it can't get there before the ball is released, ie. the coverage is lacking. To support this, the highest ranked KC safety in coverage rankings on that site is Jarrad Page, at #53.

This is a group that broke an NFL all-time record for inabilty to sack a QB the previous year.

Is it really that they became pretty good last season (Hard to believe that isn't going to be taken as a joke) or is the "stat" of Pressures misleading?

What is a "QB Pressure"?

If a QB makes a sandwhich, and serves it to his LOT with a nice glass of suntea, then throws the ball just as a defender is "close enough" to get his arms up and touch the QB after the throw, is it a "QB Pressure"?

If the QB leaves the pocket to roll-out to the right, when the play is not designed as a roll-out, do they automatically award a "QB Pressure" to the player on the other side, as if he had "pressured" the QB into leaving the pocket?

I am perfectly willing to grant you that coverage and pass rush go hand-in-hand.

But please, don't suggest that our 31st ranked pass rush (NFL Stats: by Team Category (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=null&archive=false&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=PASSING_SACKED&d-447263-n=1&season=2009&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1)) is...
Pretty good

...Just because alot of their failures were "pretty close" to not being failures.

Ryfo18
04-07-2010, 04:13 PM
chief31, you are absolutely right. The Chiefs have a significant inability to rush the passer, it's that simple. Everyone seems to want to make excuses for our front 7 though.

slimdagreat
04-07-2010, 04:36 PM
The fact is the front 7 and the secondary are to blame. CB is the only position we are absolutely set at on defense, but safety is by far our biggest hole.

Sure there are other positions that may be more important that we have holes at (ILB, DT, OLB) but at least we have other talented players at those positions, our safeties are both horrible.

Not only that, plus aside from Suh and McCoy there are no game changers at DT, and the only real potential starter at ILB is McClain (who's a reach at #5). OLB has a little more depth in this draft but again aside from maybe Kindle (again a reach @ #5) there are no game changers.

The only player that fills a hole on defense, that isn't a reach at #5, and plays our most lacking position, is Eric Berry simple as that.

Ryfo18
04-07-2010, 04:48 PM
The fact is the front 7 and the secondary are to blame. CB is the only position we are absolutely set at on defense, but safety is by far our biggest hole.

Sure there are other positions that may be more important that we have holes at (ILB, DT, OLB) but at least we have other talented players at those positions, our safeties are both horrible.

Not only that, plus aside from Suh and McCoy there are no game changers at DT, and the only real potential starter at ILB is McClain (who's a reach at #5). OLB has a little more depth in this draft but again aside from maybe Kindle (again a reach @ #5) there are no game changers.

The only player that fills a hole on defense, that isn't a reach at #5, and plays our most lacking position, is Eric Berry simple as that.

For a defense that has struggled to get pressure on the QB the last 2 years, Safety is far from our MOST lacking position. Did you know we finished in the top 5 in pass D when we had Jared Allen and a pass rush. That's with Page and Wesley as our safeties. Getting to the QB can solve a lot of problems on defense. The safety is our biggest problem argument is getting ridiculous. It's not.

slimdagreat
04-07-2010, 04:53 PM
QB Pressures per Profootballfocus.com:

3-4 DEs
#8 Glenn Dorsey
#24 Tyson Jackson

DT/NT
#12 Ron Edwards

3-4 OLB
#2 Tamba Hali
#13 Mike Vrabel

ILB
#6 Derrick Johnson
#43 Corey Mays


In other words, besides getting another ILB ( which most folks agree is a need for KC ), the pass rush is pretty good, however, it can't get there before the ball is released, ie. the coverage is lacking. To support this, the highest ranked KC safety in coverage rankings on that site is Jarrad Page, at #53.

This is an EXTREMELY misleading stat and here are the reasons why.

1. There were only 32 3-4 DEs in the entire league last season, so TJ being ranked 24th out of 32 is pretty awful as far as pressures go.

2. Also because of the lack of overall talent at the position, there were only 12 DEs that played in 3-4 defenses and played at least 75% of their teams snaps, and of those 12, Dorsey ranks 8th (which puts him in the bottom 25%) and TJ is dead last.

3. I'll give you that Edwards was decent, but he was feast or famine. 7 games (almost 1/2 the season) he finished with 0 pressures.

4. Hali was great, this is obvious. Vrable was 13th out of 28. Very average if you ask me and out of ILBs that played 75% of their teams snaps, he was 2nd to last.

5. D Johnson was phenomenal considering he only played about a 1/3 of the snaps as most of the top 10. Per snap he'd be #1 in the league in pressures. Corey Mays ranked 43rd out of 53 players that registered a QB pressure, not exactly setting the world on fire either.

slimdagreat
04-07-2010, 04:55 PM
For a defense that has struggled to get pressure on the QB the last 2 years, Safety is far from our MOST lacking position. Did you know we finished in the top 5 in pass D when we had Jared Allen and a pass rush. That's with Page and Wesley as our safeties. Getting to the QB can solve a lot of problems on defense. The safety is our biggest problem argument is getting ridiculous. It's not.

Again, I know there are positions of greater influence that we have holes in, I acknowledged that in my previous.

But FROM A STRICTLY TALENT LEVEL safety is by far our worst position. The talent we have starting at safety wouldn't make 1/2 the NFL practice squads.

Ryfo18
04-07-2010, 05:00 PM
Again, I know there are positions of greater influence that we have holes in, I acknowledged that in my previous.

But FROM A STRICTLY TALENT LEVEL safety is by far our worst position. The talent we have starting at safety wouldn't make 1/2 the NFL practice squads.

That's fair. Mike Brown made it through free agency until the end of June last year before he was signed. McGraw is a special teams guy turned into a starter. Not having Page really hurt last year, b/c I think he is a decent safety. I'm more up for taking a safety in round 2-3, the position is deep this year and you don't hear about a lot of the other guys b/c of they hype that Berry receives, and even Earl Thomas receives to some extent.

slimdagreat
04-07-2010, 05:02 PM
For a defense that has struggled to get pressure on the QB the last 2 years, Safety is far from our MOST lacking position. Did you know we finished in the top 5 in pass D when we had Jared Allen and a pass rush. That's with Page and Wesley as our safeties. Getting to the QB can solve a lot of problems on defense. The safety is our biggest problem argument is getting ridiculous. It's not.

Speaking of misleading stats. Yes its true in 07 we were 7th in passing defense. We were also thrown against 4th fewest in the league that season, in other words only 3 teams had fewer passes thrown against them that year than we did. So naturally we were ranked high in passing yard defense, nobody threw on us. In addition we were 20th in yards per attempt.

Why didn't teams throw on us that year? Because we were 23rd in yards per rush, 22nd in rushing 1st downs allowed, and 28th in rushing yards allowed.

So while stat manipulation can be fun, lets look at the big picture. our pass defense was only good when you ignore the frequency we were thrown on, and the yards we allowed when we were thrown on.

Ryfo18
04-07-2010, 05:22 PM
Speaking of misleading stats. Yes its true in 07 we were 7th in passing defense. We were also thrown against 4th fewest in the league that season, in other words only 3 teams had fewer passes thrown against them that year than we did. So naturally we were ranked high in passing yard defense, nobody threw on us. In addition we were 20th in yards per attempt.

Why didn't teams throw on us that year? Because we were 23rd in yards per rush, 22nd in rushing 1st downs allowed, and 28th in rushing yards allowed.

So while stat manipulation can be fun, lets look at the big picture. our pass defense was only good when you ignore the frequency we were thrown on, and the yards we allowed when we were thrown on.

That's fair, but look at how many rushing yards they gave in up 2007: 2089 yards. In 2008 they gave up 2543 yards and in 2009, 2504 yards. Was our pass D in the top 10 b/c teams were throwing less? No. Last year they still managed to finish 22nd worst in passing. Why? I'll still contend that it's b/c we have no pass rush.

Oh, and this year we had the third most rushing attempts against us and the 7th fewest pass attempts against us. I'll manipulate stats all day with you, as long as it proves my point! :lol:

slimdagreat
04-07-2010, 05:42 PM
I agree that the pass rush needs to be priority #1, I said that in another thread as well.

But, its also fair to say that improving the secondary if there isn't a player than can improve our pass rush should be the way to go. And IMO there aren't that many great pass rushers in this draft worth taking at #5.

I think the best pass rushers are Morgan, Pierre-Paul (Derrick Harvey pt. 2) and Kindle. So unless you want to reach and overpay one of these guys I still say you have to take what's there.

Xanathol
04-07-2010, 05:52 PM
This is an EXTREMELY misleading stat and here are the reasons why.

1. There were only 32 3-4 DEs in the entire league last season, so TJ being ranked 24th out of 32 is pretty awful as far as pressures go.

2. Also because of the lack of overall talent at the position, there were only 12 DEs that played in 3-4 defenses and played at least 75% of their teams snaps, and of those 12, Dorsey ranks 8th (which puts him in the bottom 25%) and TJ is dead last.

3. I'll give you that Edwards was decent, but he was feast or famine. 7 games (almost 1/2 the season) he finished with 0 pressures.

4. Hali was great, this is obvious. Vrable was 13th out of 28. Very average if you ask me and out of ILBs that played 75% of their teams snaps, he was 2nd to last.

5. D Johnson was phenomenal considering he only played about a 1/3 of the snaps as most of the top 10. Per snap he'd be #1 in the league in pressures. Corey Mays ranked 43rd out of 53 players that registered a QB pressure, not exactly setting the world on fire either.

1. Where do you get 32 from? Are you only counting starters? PFF recorded 74 players that played the position during the season, 39 who played 25% of the highest snap total, 17 @ 50%, 12 @ 60%, 7 @ 75%.

2. 12 was @ 60, but anyhow, Dorsey had 16 QB Pressures, 8th among all 3-4 DEs, would tie for 39th among all 4-3 DEs, would tie for 7th amoung all DT/NTs. No matter how you cut it, that's pretty good.

More to the point, however, is that what would be 'extremely misleading' would be using 75% of the snaps as a comparison, considering how many players actually played that many snaps in the league:

4-3 DE: 20
4-3 OLB: 14
3-4 DE: 7
3-4 OLB: 13
DT/NT: 15
ILB: 23
CB: 41
S: 36

With the 75% baseline, you could only field seven 4-3 fronts or three 3-4 fronts. In other words, its silly to use that as a baseline.

As I've admitted before, I am a passing KC fan, but IMO, I think KC really needs safety help ( badly ) and to grab an ILB and an OLB in the draft. The CBs for KC are pretty good, but ya gotta get help elsewhere in coverage. Take away over the top / down the middle plays with safety help, take away some outlet options with a couple of new LBers, and those QB Pressures will start to turn into sacks.