Positional value

[bigpoppachief]

Honestly I am kind of tired about hearing about postional value. I just want someone that can come in and play. I feel that we do not need Okung because Albert CAN plat LT maybe he is not the best LT but at least give him another year now that we got some other help on the o line. Everyone says they dont want to spend that much on a safety and I am not all for Eric Berry because I really like Myron Rolle and think we can get him as a value pick in later rounds but I just am kinda tired about hearing how something is positional value I don't care if we took a safety with the number one overall pick as long as that player came in and made the team better. Hell if there was a kicker who could make 70 yard FG against the wind blowing 50 miles in thier face I would take them at number one. I just want someone that can help us win !

[matthewschiefs]

I tend to agree if theres a guy out there who you think can help and thats your biggest need why not go for it. The reason I have not been all for Berry is that safety is not the biggest need on this team. We have bigger needs and I would like to see us work on those first. The only thing i will say is that its probley a waste pick to draft a kicker number 1 overall. Thats the one exception but overall i would agree.

[KCINNYC]

The only player that makes sense at number 5 is Eric Berry. Everyone else that fills a need i.e. Dan Williams, Bulaga etc. will be available so I have to say, with a deep draft, the BEST thing to do is trade down for more picks.

[Bike]

Honestly I am kind of tired about hearing about postional value. I just want someone that can come in and play. I feel that we do not need Okung because Albert CAN plat LT maybe he is not the best LT but at least give him another year now that we got some other help on the o line. Everyone says they dont want to spend that much on a safety and I am not all for Eric Berry because I really like Myron Rolle and think we can get him as a value pick in later rounds but I just am kinda tired about hearing how something is positional value I don't care if we took a safety with the number one overall pick as long as that player came in and made the team better. Hell if there was a kicker who could make 70 yard FG against the wind blowing 50 miles in thier face I would take them at number one. I just want someone that can help us win !This is a pretty deep draft for safeties. I love Myron Rolle. If he can dedicate himself to just playing football, he will be a playmaker for years to come for some lucky team - hopefully us...

[kcmostwanted]

I'm crossing my fingers and praying that we get a trade worked out with:

Cleveland
Buffalo
or one of the teams from pick 6-13

[honda522]

Why would think Albert is going to be a great LT?

He was drafted as a guard and I think he better well play at the dam guard spot. LT takes alot of skill, why do you think its hard to find a great one?

[DC_Chiefsfan]

Why would think Albert is going to be a great LT?

He was drafted as a guard and I think he better well play at the dam guard spot. LT takes alot of skill, why do you think its hard to find a great one?


Albert was drafted as a LT. The idea from the beginning is that he would play LT in the pros. The only reason he played LG at Virginia is that another guy, by the name of Eugene Monroe, was playing LT. Albert is the right size for a LT (compare his measurables to any LT), and still hasn't had a full year of the "system" under his belt. With Weis in the building, I believe Albert will really develop and be a great LT this year. He's slimmed down (and still a big LT), he's big, he's strong. He is ideal for a zone blocking scheme.

With that said, drafting a LT with the fifth overall would be unwise in my opinion. I want to see a playmaker. Either a safety, wr or pass rusher.

[Bike]

Albert was drafted as a LT. The idea from the beginning is that he would play LT in the pros. The only reason he played LG at Virginia is that another guy, by the name of Eugene Monroe, was playing LT. Albert is the right size for a LT (compare his measurables to any LT), and still hasn't had a full year of the "system" under his belt. With Weis in the building, I believe Albert will really develop and be a great LT this year. He's slimmed down (and still a big LT), he's big, he's strong. He is ideal for a zone blocking scheme.

With that said, drafting a LT with the fifth overall would be unwise in my opinion. I want to see a playmaker. Either a safety, wr or pass rusher.
If we drafted Berry at 5, He would be making 10 mil more than the current highest paid safety in the league. Doesn't make economical sense to a rebuilding team to me. Build the lines first.

[bwilliams]

If we drafted Berry at 5, He would be making 10 mil more than the current highest paid safety in the league. Doesn't make economical sense to a rebuilding team to me. Build the lines first.

Even if economics weren't important, it wouldn't make sense as a pick. It doesn't matter how good your DBs are if your front seven stinks. You won't get pass pressure, and teams will gash you on the ground. Your defense will get tired out playing 40 minutes a game, every game.

[bigpoppachief]

Why would think Albert is going to be a great LT?

He was drafted as a guard and I think he better well play at the dam guard spot. LT takes alot of skill, why do you think its hard to find a great one?

Thats the keyword right there a GREAT LET IS HARD TO FIND. Albert may not be the best LT but he is not horrible either who is to say that we draft a LT and he will be great ? I would rather take the chance to get a difference maker and let Albert have at least one more year under these new coaches to see what he can do. I just think that when we have so many needs and we have addressed the oline why unless Okung falls to us which i would take Okung over Berry in an instant. Honestly though what I hope most of all is we can trade down. I just dont like Bulaga much I would rather have trent williams

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

Even if economics weren't important, it wouldn't make sense as a pick. It doesn't matter how good your DBs are if your front seven stinks. You won't get pass pressure, and teams will gash you on the ground. Your defense will get tired out playing 40 minutes a game, every game.

Your theory is predicated on the assumption that drafting a DB at #5 precludes you from improving your front 7.

There are other picks, picks where we can improve both our defensive line and linebackers.

Terrence Cody, Cam Thomas, Jerry Hughes, Brandon Spikes. That's four guys off the top of my head who should be around in round 2 or 3 and could be a major upgrade over our current roster.

[chief31]

Your theory is predicated on the assumption that drafting a DB at #5 precludes you from improving your front 7.

There are other picks, picks where we can improve both our defensive line and linebackers.

Terrence Cody, Cam Thomas, Jerry Hughes, Brandon Spikes. That's four guys off the top of my head who should be around in round 2 or 3 and could be a major upgrade over our current roster.

The later you address a position, the more likely you are to have made no improvement to it.

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

That means nothing. Absolutely nothing. There are going to be 21 positions on either offense or defense that we don't address until the second round, regardless of who we take.

The SMART move, therefore, is to take the player who best fills these requirements:

talent
fit into scheme
position of need
on-field production
character
NFL-readiness
likelihood of success/failure
and, yes, positional value.

However, if the player is even in the discussion at this level, he doesn't lack one of these areas significantly enough to rule him out.

sure, safety isn't a position of value that regards a top-five pick. Does his talent, character, dedication, production, and intelligence override his positional value?

Dunno. I'm not the GM.

[lucky_lefty]

If we drafted Berry at 5, He would be making 10 mil more than the current highest paid safety in the league. Doesn't make economical sense to a rebuilding team to me. Build the lines first.

I never understood this logic here...Whoever you draft is going to be one of the higher paid if not the highest paid player at their respective position. Build your line through FA or through later round picks. Not that many picked high in the 1st round that have panned out that I can think of.

[Bike]

I never understood this logic here...Whoever you draft is going to be one of the higher paid if not the highest paid player at their respective position. Build your line through FA or through later round picks. Not that many picked high in the 1st round that have panned out that I can think of.
Watch the draft - you'll see. Pioli will build the lines first. Our 1st pick will either be an offensive lineman (Okung, Williams) or a defensive lineman (Williams).:mancard:

[lucky_lefty]

Watch the draft - you'll see. Pioli will build the lines first. Our 1st pick will either be an offensive lineman (Okung, Williams) or a defensive lineman (Williams).:mancard:

Don't get it twisted, I totally know what you mean, I just don't agree with the logic. I mean if you have so much need at various positions, why reach when the BPA has been in the top 3 as far talent in the draft. If we could trade down, that would be best. Williams is probably the best T in the draft. Buluga & Okung have been getting trashed by the non-E!SPN media lately. And also, alot of people are starting to sour on D. Williams considering he only he's really been subpar considering all the hype...
Draft week Inconvenient Truths: Season for lying - NFL - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AsE3BXhnkB78lvIGBhIdxbJDubYF?slug=cr-inconvenienttruths041910)

5. Okung isn’t a franchise left tackle
Teams like Oklahoma State’s Russell Okung, but he’s not a nasty mauler with great upper body strength. And he’s not consistent. When teams describe him in relation to other offensive tackles, he always comes in a clear notch below the Cleveland Browns’ Joe Thomas(notes), and some think he won’t even be a left tackle in the NFL. Not exactly what you want to hear if you’re drafting in the top five and want a Pro Bowl anchor on the left side.

Said one personnel man, “Okung is the consummate pro and a good soul, but ultimately that guy would be nice around 15 through 19. When you’re talking about the single digits [with Okung], people are concerned about that.”

6. Williams is actually the most highly skilled tackle available
Like Okung, Trent Williams of Oklahoma is not overly nasty, either. But he is extremely athletic, and teams think he could sustain that even if he got into the 320-pound range. He’s got great balance, great feet, good arm length and has at times punished defenders with his hands. Essentially, he’s got a maximum amount of tools and ability to work with to become a true franchise left tackle.

Said an NFC source: “If you’re just looking at skill, and take away all the other stuff, he’s far beyond Okung. [Williams] has much more skill and athleticism. He’s definitely a left tackle and he could also play right.”

[Bike]

Don't get it twisted, I totally know what you mean, I just don't agree with the logic. I mean if you have so much need at various positions, why reach when the BPA has been in the top 3 as far talent in the draft. If we could trade down, that would be best. Williams is probably the best T in the draft. Buluga & Okung have been getting trashed by the non-E!SPN media lately.
I hope this first pick goes to fixing this 30th ranked defense. I'd be happy with Dan Williams or Eric Berry or anybody really that can help this D stop the run and get to the QB...

[Chieffaninfl]

I want McClain!

[matthewschiefs]

I hope this first pick goes to fixing this 30th ranked defense. I'd be happy with Dan Williams or Eric Berry or anybody really that can help this D stop the run and get to the QB...

This is the biggest need for this team at this time IMO. we have made some moves on the o line to give us some time to look at the D more first. I hope we get help on defense mostly getting to the QB the whole d will look better if we can do that.

[Bike]

I want McClain!
Me too! But not at 5...

[Seek]

Your theory is predicated on the assumption that drafting a DB at #5 precludes you from improving your front 7.

There are other picks, picks where we can improve both our defensive line and linebackers.

Terrence Cody, Cam Thomas, Jerry Hughes, Brandon Spikes. That's four guys off the top of my head who should be around in round 2 or 3 and could be a major upgrade over our current roster.

Your Theory is assuming that these players who could fill a hole later in the draft, will become instant impact players who for some reason were magiclly skipped over and should have been drafted higher than they should. While that sounds nice, historically this is a sure fail tactic for the Chiefs. We have only draft two players worth keeping in the second round that I can recall (Tim Grunhardt and Brandon Flowers).

This theory is also under the assumption we have 4 second round picks to fill a need at OT, DT, IL and OLB.

You can not find me a top tier saftey in this league that does not have a good front Seven. Teams are built from the Line back not from the Back forward. Troy P, does make the Pittsburgh defense a whole lot better and could be an exception to that theory, but he wasn't even drafted in the top 10.

That is where the trade value originates The good players are closer to the line, and are the higher valued players because they are hard to find.

That is more fact than theory.

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

Your Theory is assuming that these players who could fill a hole later in the draft, will become instant impact players who for some reason were magiclly skipped over and should have been drafted higher than they should. While that sounds nice, historically this is a sure fail tactic for the Chiefs. We have only draft two players worth keeping in the second round that I can recall (Tim Grunhardt and Brandon Flowers).

This theory is also under the assumption we have 4 second round picks to fill a need at OT, DT, IL and OLB.

You can not find me a top tier saftey in this league that does not have a good front Seven. Teams are built from the Line back not from the Back forward. Troy P, does make the Pittsburgh defense a whole lot better and could be an exception to that theory, but he wasn't even drafted in the top 10.

That is where the trade value originates The good players are closer to the line, and are the higher valued players because they are hard to find.

That is more fact than theory.

The draft doesn't end at round 2. Third round picks can still be major contributors. In fact, you listed four positions, yet we only have three picks in the first two rounds, so we can't take all of those anyway.

Of course, according to you, any player taken after the 2nd is just dead weight, right? no way you can build your lines with those picks.

How about players drafted in the third round? Like Will Shields? I believe he falls under the "close to the line" category.

How about the fourth round? Like Jared Allen? Does defensive end count towards the front seven?

how about these other 2009 probowlers, all linemen or linebackers:

lance briggs - third round
james harrison - undrafted
chris snee - 2nd round
andre gurode - 2nd round
kris jenkins - 2nd round
jay ratliff - 7th round
brian waters - undrafted
michael roos - 2nd round

"teams are built from the line back"

the last two years, we've picked two defensive linemen in the top 5, and an offensive tackle in the top 15.

two years prior, we spent our first rounder on a defensive end, who now plays linebacker.

Another top 15 pick was spent on Derrick johnson.

Starting to get it? We have SPENT draft picks on the trenches, on the front seven.

The top positional value is quarterback, but that would be a stupid pick. You can't limit your vision based on position (obviously not punter or kicker).

[chief31]

The draft doesn't end at round 2. Third round picks can still be major contributors. In fact, you listed four positions, yet we only have three picks in the first two rounds, so we can't take all of those anyway.

Of course, according to you, any player taken after the 2nd is just dead weight, right? no way you can build your lines with those picks.

How about players drafted in the third round? Like Will Shields? I believe he falls under the "close to the line" category.

How about the fourth round? Like Jared Allen? Does defensive end count towards the front seven?

how about these other 2009 probowlers, all linemen or linebackers:

lance briggs - third round
james harrison - undrafted
chris snee - 2nd round
andre gurode - 2nd round
kris jenkins - 2nd round
jay ratliff - 7th round
brian waters - undrafted
michael roos - 2nd round

"teams are built from the line back"

the last two years, we've picked two defensive linemen in the top 5, and an offensive tackle in the top 15.

two years prior, we spent our first rounder on a defensive end, who now plays linebacker.

Another top 15 pick was spent on Derrick johnson.

Starting to get it? We have SPENT draft picks on the trenches, on the front seven.

The top positional value is quarterback, but that would be a stupid pick. You can't limit your vision based on position (obviously not punter or kicker).

Showing the exceptions to the rule only proves the rule.

You aren't trying to say that players picked in later rounds are more successful than those drafted at the front. I know. But you do seem to be belittling the concept.

NFL teams place a different value to certain positions. Kicker and Punter are the obviuos ones. But OG, C, and S are devalued to different degrees. And most teams have lower values for certain other positions as well.

Positions such as Pass Rusher (OLB/DE), OT, DT and QB are among the league's highest valued positions.

Unless you are willing to make a case for a Punter being drafted #1 overall, then you agree with the ideal of having positional values. Perhaps to a lesser extent, but still on board with the program.

As for which positions have had players drafted high in recent years...

You can't use that as an excuse for devaluing your team's greatest needs.

That concept wil only hurt your team.

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

My point was that you can find excellent contributors at the highest valued positions in rounds 2 and beyond. The first round doesn't have exclusive rights to pro-bowl linemen and linebackers.

Also, Berry isn't just a talented safety. he's an excellent character guy, a leader on the field, a leader off the field, a position of need, and a position that the team has very little money invested in. You have to spread the attention around. while berry might not be our pick, to completely write him off as undraftable at #5 is just silly. You would rather have a lesser player at another position, simply because of the position?

Between Ed Reed and Kyle Orton, I'll take Ed reed.

Between Matt Birk and Tank Williams, Birk.

[chief31]

My point was that you can find excellent contributors at the highest valued positions in rounds 2 and beyond. The first round doesn't have exclusive rights to pro-bowl linemen and linebackers.

Also, Berry isn't just a talented safety. he's an excellent character guy, a leader on the field, a leader off the field, a position of need, and a position that the team has very little money invested in. You have to spread the attention around. while berry might not be our pick, to completely write him off as undraftable at #5 is just silly. You would rather have a lesser player at another position, simply because of the position?

Between Ed Reed and Kyle Orton, I'll take Ed reed.

Between Matt Birk and Tank Williams, Birk.

I certainly don't want to "write off" Berry.
I am not heavily against drafting him.

But, between Ed Reed and Jake Long, I'll take Jake Long.

[Seek]

The draft doesn't end at round 2. Third round picks can still be major contributors. In fact, you listed four positions, yet we only have three picks in the first two rounds, so we can't take all of those anyway.

Of course, according to you, any player taken after the 2nd is just dead weight, right? no way you can build your lines with those picks.

How about players drafted in the third round? Like Will Shields? I believe he falls under the "close to the line" category.

How about the fourth round? Like Jared Allen? Does defensive end count towards the front seven?

how about these other 2009 probowlers, all linemen or linebackers:

lance briggs - third round
james harrison - undrafted
chris snee - 2nd round
andre gurode - 2nd round
kris jenkins - 2nd round
jay ratliff - 7th round
brian waters - undrafted
michael roos - 2nd round

"teams are built from the line back"

the last two years, we've picked two defensive linemen in the top 5, and an offensive tackle in the top 15.

two years prior, we spent our first rounder on a defensive end, who now plays linebacker.

Another top 15 pick was spent on Derrick johnson.

Starting to get it? We have SPENT draft picks on the trenches, on the front seven.

The top positional value is quarterback, but that would be a stupid pick. You can't limit your vision based on position (obviously not punter or kicker).

I get it, you are still missing the point. You are simply proving that there is talent that can succeed at other draft picks. I know that.

The point being made is that Chiefs have a lot of big holes, as I stated at least four. We don't have enough high draft picks to fill those holes. So we will have to rely on later rounds to fill those holes. Based on your theory, the Cheifs would have to hit on all their draft picks, and then drafting the safety a stud safety at #5 is the right pick. I am skeptical we nail all those draft picks. It is less likely that we find these four starters in the 3rd or fourth rounds.

That is where the positional value comes in... A serviceable safety Like Jared Page, can more easily be found in the 7th round, that a starting LT. It does happen every once in a while, but not often.

You can throw out there all the picks the Chiefs drafted before, and that is a moot argument. It was a different GM, HC an different structure. Those drafts are obviously why were are in the current state we are in.

Teams that draft safeties in the top 10 picks, historically continue have losing records. because they were bad enough to be in the top 10 and had other issues to fix but chose to take the safety first without fixing the trenches.

There is two many holes on this team that needs fixing. Safety is one of them, but it will be fixed in a later round as you proved, there is talent later in the draft.

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

I get it, you are still missing the point. You are simply proving that there is talent that can succeed at other draft picks. I know that.

The point being made is that Chiefs have a lot of big holes, as I stated at least four. We don't have enough high draft picks to fill those holes. So we will have to rely on later rounds to fill those holes. Based on your theory, the Cheifs would have to hit on all their draft picks, and then drafting the safety a stud safety at #5 is the right pick. I am skeptical we nail all those draft picks. It is less likely that we find these four starters in the 3rd or fourth rounds.

That is where the positional value comes in... A serviceable safety Like Jared Page, can more easily be found in the 7th round, that a starting LT. It does happen every once in a while, but not often.

You can throw out there all the picks the Chiefs drafted before, and that is a moot argument. It was a different GM, HC an different structure. Those drafts are obviously why were are in the current state we are in.

Teams that draft safeties in the top 10 picks, historically continue have losing records. because they were bad enough to be in the top 10 and had other issues to fix but chose to take the safety first without fixing the trenches.

There is two many holes on this team that needs fixing. Safety is one of them, but it will be fixed in a later round as you proved, there is talent later in the draft.

You're right about finding a servicable safety later. It's easier than finding a left tackle. However, I would argue that our current left tackle is every bit as good as any we would draft. Therefore, we're really drafting a RIGHT tackle. You can find a right tackle in later rounds.

Look, if an elite tackle were available, no way I take Berry over him. But I just don't think that the prospects on the offensive line are elite, unless you are looking at Iupati or Pouncey, and I think we both feel #5 is too high for a guard or center.

if Okung fell to us, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

I don't necessarily WANT berry, I just think it may be the best choice.

We're going to reach at #5, either for a guy whose position dictates a reach (berry) or whose character does (williams, davis) or whose talent does (bulaga). No matter what, we won't get good draft value out of the pick.

(by draft value, I mean their value as potential players. obviously, any one of them could be a hall of famer, and then retroactively they would have excellent value regardless of where they were selected).

[Seek]

You're right about finding a servicable safety later. It's easier than finding a left tackle. However, I would argue that our current left tackle is every bit as good as any we would draft. Therefore, we're really drafting a RIGHT tackle. You can find a right tackle in later rounds.

Look, if an elite tackle were available, no way I take Berry over him. But I just don't think that the prospects on the offensive line are elite, unless you are looking at Iupati or Pouncey, and I think we both feel #5 is too high for a guard or center.

if Okung fell to us, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

I don't necessarily WANT berry, I just think it may be the best choice.

We're going to reach at #5, either for a guy whose position dictates a reach (berry) or whose character does (williams, davis) or whose talent does (bulaga). No matter what, we won't get good draft value out of the pick.

(by draft value, I mean their value as potential players. obviously, any one of them could be a hall of famer, and then retroactively they would have excellent value regardless of where they were selected).

I don't think we are okay at LT. There is hundreds of excuses to why, but he was the most penalized LT in the NFL last year and gave up 9 sacks.

That means he is getting beat, frequently. While I have not given up on him, I have as a LT. Move him to RT and if that fails try him at Guard. The Chiefs under Herman Edwards reached on getting a LT cheap in the draft.

Right now people say Trent Williams and Okung are a coing flip. Bulaga is supposedly a decent option at LT, but his biggest down grade is the length of his arms and experience. One of those three will be there. We COULD solidify our LT and RT by drafting a new LT and moving Albert to Rt. For the record, I would prefer not reaching on Bulaga.

[SAPHOJUNKIE]

I am totally with you on Albert. I don't think we are "set" at left tackle. The only reason I am not 100% in favor of drafting a new left tackle is that I am underwhelmed by the prospects in this draft.

Outside of Okung, the 1st round talent at tackle is either hampered by a low ceiling (Brown, Bulaga) or character concerns (Williams, Davis).

I mean, is there a single person who wouldn't prefer to trade down?

[Fansincebirth]

LOL your both wrong. Wow

Just going to keep it simple. S is the biggest need on team. Take Berry. If you get the chance to trade down. Trade down. Take Earl Thomas.

Everyone wants to blame the pass rush. Watch a game and see how often the ball is thrown in less than 2 seconds. Doesnt matter how good your rush is if the QB has someone open and throws the ball in less than 2 seconds. A safety like Berry lets you play alot more man coverage which alows LB to give better run support, put pressure on QB, and gives the DLine that extra second to sack the QB. Thats is what Polumau and Bob Sanders bring to their defences and make them look so good. btw Polumlu was drafted 16th over all so would it be ok with you if we traded down with SF and took Thomas at 13th or would that be too early.

[Bike]

LOL your both wrong. Wow

Just going to keep it simple. S is the biggest need on team.
LOL you're wrong. Safety is NOT the biggest need on this team. A need, yes, but a nose tackle to anchor this 3-4 is by far the biggest need this team has.

[Seek]

LOL your both wrong. Wow

Just going to keep it simple. S is the biggest need on team. Take Berry. If you get the chance to trade down. Trade down. Take Earl Thomas.

Everyone wants to blame the pass rush. Watch a game and see how often the ball is thrown in less than 2 seconds. Doesnt matter how good your rush is if the QB has someone open and throws the ball in less than 2 seconds. A safety like Berry lets you play alot more man coverage which alows LB to give better run support, put pressure on QB, and gives the DLine that extra second to sack the QB. Thats is what Polumau and Bob Sanders bring to their defences and make them look so good. btw Polumlu was drafted 16th over all so would it be ok with you if we traded down with SF and took Thomas at 13th or would that be too early.

So a safety singled handedly would have stopped Cleveland from gashing us for over 300 rushing yards and allowing a no name RB beat Jim Browns single game record.

There is a lot of needs, including a safety. But as stated, the hole at saftety can easily be fixed in the 2nd or 3rd round. The Chiefs do not need to pass on more important positions becuase there is supposedly another Hall of Famer yet to set foot on the NFL field.

[buffman316]

With a good Safety we would have won that Dallas game too!

[Seek]

With a good Safety we would have won that Dallas game too!

Or a good D line, or a good, ILB, and a good LT.