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nigeriannightmare
09-23-2010, 10:43 AM
I keep reading about how most people have little to no faith that #7 is gonna be the guy here. Granted his performance has been mediocre at best but it's not as if he has had any help. I am too lazy to look it up but am pretty sure the chiefs were at the top of the league in dropped balls last year with D-Bowe having a lot of them. Chambers made no effort to break up that pick on the underthrown ball last week. They run routes short on 3rd and long situations. Is it just me or do our wide receivers have as much to blame as our qb.

Chief Tyler
09-23-2010, 11:34 AM
I keep reading about how most people have little to no faith that #7 is gonna be the guy here. Granted his performance has been mediocre at best but it's not as if he has had any help. I am too lazy to look it up but am pretty sure the chiefs were at the top of the league in dropped balls last year with D-Bowe having a lot of them. Chambers made no effort to break up that pick on the underthrown ball last week. They run routes short on 3rd and long situations. Is it just me or do our wide receivers have as much to blame as our qb.

Cassel is bad. He's so bad that they feel their chances are better with a draw or toss from to Charles than allow Cassel deep routes (which I'd guess to be no more than a 15% success rate on pass plays 15 yds or more). Not to mention, the pass blocking needs to improve. It's not like our receiving corps is awful. Chambers was useful when he came in last season, haven't been able to see much this season. Moeaki has been a solid target, McCluster should be too. According to just about everybody Bowe is playing the best ball he's ever played. He's had a few "drops" this season but Cassel put it in bad spots to begin with. Our receivers aren't elite, but they can't be blamed when Cassel isn't even giving them the opportunity to be successful.

Just look what happened to Arizona's pass offense under this short stint with Leinart.

bwilliams
09-23-2010, 11:34 AM
It's both the WRs and Cassel, plus some fault to the playcalling. Bowe drops a lot of balls (Chambers doesn't though), but Cassel throws the ball right into traffic enough that some of the drops are his fault.

And they run the routes that the OC calls. They aren't making up their own routes out there. Cassel doesn't have the arm or the accuracy for the long ball right now, so Weis is gameplanning around that. And if Weis calls another pitch to the RB on 3rd and 1, we need to fire him. Out of a cannon and into the sun.

yashi
09-23-2010, 11:42 AM
Watch Bowe at the top of the screen.

NFL Videos: Browns defense, INT (http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d81aa6f77/Browns-defense-INT)

That's a touchdown with any catchable ball in that direction. Cassel is playing poorly and doesn't seem to see the deep pass when it's there. No excuses.

nigeriannightmare
09-23-2010, 11:48 AM
It's both the WRs and Cassel, plus some fault to the playcalling. Bowe drops a lot of balls (Chambers doesn't though), but Cassel throws the ball right into traffic enough that some of the drops are his fault.

And they run the routes that the OC calls. They aren't making up their own routes out there. Cassel doesn't have the arm or the accuracy for the long ball right now, so Weis is gameplanning around that. And if Weis calls another pitch to the RB on 3rd and 1, we need to fire him. Out of a cannon and into the sun.

On sunday it was 3rd and 6 and bowe ran a five yard route that's not the oc that's bowe not knowing where the first down marker is.

nigeriannightmare
09-23-2010, 11:55 AM
Last year D-Bowe did lead the league in dropped balls, with Mark Bradley and Bobby Wade in the top 10 as well.

wildcat
09-23-2010, 12:09 PM
Our receivers are good enough. Remember during the Vermeil era when everybody kept saying our receivers weren't good enough? Yet year in and year out we had one of the best passing attacks in the league. I think our receivers could play better, but I don't think they are the biggest problem.

Our receivers will magically get a whole lot better once we have a QB who is running our offense efficiently, whether that is Cassel or somebody else.

Pro_Angler
09-23-2010, 12:10 PM
Ever since we made the trade for Cssell I though Man both players for 2nd rd. pick.. not too bad, pretty darn good in fact.
Thge thing that peeved me off the most was the 60Mill. dollar contract. I would say maybe 22 million for 5 years.
He hasnt earned even half of that money , heck not even a quarter of it. I honestly this year seen very many catchable dropped balls! I really truly believe that Cassell has a learning disability. He has issues with reading defenses and a really bad issue with tunnell vision. I dont thinkl I have ever seen him lok at two recievers down field, it's usually one then dump off. It's like he watches the receiever hoping he gets seperation, maybe he just likes to watch recievers??
Play calling has been a isssue for me especially the two pitch plays on 3rd down, this bothers me.
All in all I don't believe Cassell is a horrible QB I just think he is a back up QB at best right now. Would I like to see him succeed hell ya, but will he? I have little faith at this point.
Our O-line is not the problem he is having 4-5 seconds to get rid of the ball (thats good time). That ball he threw to Chambers never should have been thrown! Chamber should have done more to stop the INT, heck even get a PI penalty or something other then allowing the pick. Bur never the less the ball never should have been thrown.
Hopefully Cassell brings it against 49rs cause I believe they will put points on the board, even though our D has been the backbone of our team thus far.

matthewschiefs
09-23-2010, 12:20 PM
In football it's never one thing that is holding a team back it's a bunch of things. Just like it's not all Berry giveing up Tds on Defense it's not all Cassel on the Offense. It's both Cassel the WR some on the O line on a few plays. It's a bunch of little things that add up to hurt the offense.

wildcat
09-23-2010, 12:23 PM
Our O-line is not the problem he is having 4-5 seconds to get rid of the ball (thats good time).

How good would our line have to be in order for Brodie to have a fighting chance of surviving and NFL season? I'm just saying. Either Matt Cassel is going to start playing better, or prepare to start hearing the chants.

Few people, outside of Vermeil, thought that Trent Green could stay healthy as a full time starter. However, he was Mr. Iron Man during his tenure as the Chief's starter, right up until the infamous concussion. Maybe Brodie just needs to start drinking some milk or something.

Hayvern
09-23-2010, 12:23 PM
Dropped passes have not been the issue this year. So far there have been three total. Of course, compared to the number of passes attempted, that is still a pretty high percentage.

There are a number of factors going on here.

1. Cassel's birddogging. Cassel seems to know before the snap ever comes exactly who is going to throw to. He looks at that receiver all the way down the field to the complete ignoring of any other receivers. He will throw it away, or into traffic before he checks any other receiver.

If he does check another receiver, it is a safety valve dump for short yardage. 1 - 3 yards on average.

Cassel's birddogging has a lot to do with the next issue as well I believe.

2. Receivers for the most part are not getting seperation. I am not sure if they are televising their routes, or just not making the cuts they need to be making, but they are being covered very well. I believe a lot of this is because of Cassel following that receiver down the field.

3. Play calling. Look, let's face it, if you know your quarterback has a tendency to birddog your receivers, then call plays that involve flooding that part of the field. We saw some success for a couple pass plays at Clevelend where they did just that. If you have two or three guys in the vicinity of where Cassel is tending to look, then it will be harder for the defense to cover all of those receivers equally as well. This should allow at least one of them to get open in the amount of time Cassel has to throw.

4. The offensive line is better at giving Cassel more time, but what I have been noticing is a lack of a pocket forming. Everyone comments on a QBs ability to step up in the pocket to buy more time, but frankly we really do not have a pocket formed on most pass plays. The left side of the line forms pretty well, but the right side is getting pushed all over the field. Luckily, these guys are able to hold of the defenders, but there really is no pocket for Cassel to use. Watch the game this week and see if you see what I mean.

Drunker Hillbilly
09-23-2010, 12:26 PM
I think it's a combination of "all of the above". Cassel, WR's and play calling. I would think that as a QB on this team you would have to be concerned with... a) the O line and b) the receivers ability to catch the balls. Having said that, he has to get better and he has proven all though it be on a different team, that he is able to be very productive when given the right tools and protection. I hope he can get it righted soon.

Regardless of "who" is playing WR, they have produced FAR, FAR less than what would on paper appear that they should. Bottom line is they are 2-0 but they better have their heads on a swivel this week because the Niners are going to BRING it and if we are not spot on, this could get ugly early.

SIC J
09-23-2010, 12:28 PM
Its been a lil bit of everything but I think as the season goes on, they will learn to play as a TEAM. The receivers need to get open a lil quicker/catch the ball, Cassell can be a lil more accurate,the line can give Cassell a lil more time, and the play calling needs to be a lil better.

All in all, they're in a new system and I think they will get in the groove of things sooner than later. If by game 4 they haven't, then I'll start to worry.

bwilliams
09-23-2010, 12:30 PM
On sunday it was 3rd and 6 and bowe ran a five yard route that's not the oc that's bowe not knowing where the first down marker is.

What? Do you really think Bowe decides what routes he's going to run? Our entire passing system is designed for the QB to get a ball to a spot, not to the player. If Bowe runs an extra yard because that's the first down line, the ball bounces off the turf.

Bowe ran the route he ran because the play called for it. No more, no less.

Chief Tyler
09-23-2010, 12:56 PM
Its been a lil bit of everything but I think as the season goes on, they will learn to play as a TEAM. The receivers need to get open a lil quicker/catch the ball, Cassell can be a lil more accurate,the line can give Cassell a lil more time, and the play calling needs to be a lil better.

All in all, they're in a new system and I think they will get in the groove of things sooner than later. If by game 4 they haven't, then I'll start to worry.

The sad part is, supposedly Cassel is the most familiar with this offensive scheme yet he's the worst skill position starter.

fairladyZ
09-23-2010, 03:10 PM
If you watch the video of the INT at cleveland and everyone that is saying Bowe was open for a TD keep watching he breaks his route off right toward the safety. What do you want matt to do throw a catch ball in between bowe and the safety and best man gets it? Now Matt didn't even look that way but still it's the little things.

Everything you guys have said is true. Matt does Birddog SOMETIMES not all the times i've seen him look around. But what makes it hard for him is just like somebody said the RIGHT side of the pocket colapses and he can feel it so he has to find a place to step. When your trying to look at 3 different options and about 5 defenders to see where they are as opposed to where you want to place the ball then you can feel a push coming from your right it makes it hard. That is why alot of times people say cassel gets happy feet. He tries to step up in the pocket but it's collapsing in from the right so he jumps back to find a gap to escape from..

He does need to get better or we need to maybe try Asomoah at RG. To get cassel a pocket he can step into.

Watch Manning or Brady or Brees. They all get happy feet except brady who just kind bounces. But they all shuffle their feet. The difference is their pocket is a pocket and not a half U. Cassel is pretty damn accurate when not getting pressure and he's got plenty of arm. I laugh still when everyone says that.

fairladyZ
09-23-2010, 03:13 PM
And actually now watching the INT again Cassel's first look was Pope but the LB dropped right back into him. Then cassel looks to chambers and throws the jump ball.

honda522
09-23-2010, 04:51 PM
I have given this guy support for long enough, there should be improvement. This year, they are catching them and he just isn't throwing them.

I give him to the end of this year before I write him off as a bust. I know he had good targets in NE, but we have some good ones here and he just plain isn't throwing the ball in the sweet spot.

Hey, if we win the SB with Cassel, I could careless if he stays. I can almost bet there will not be success if Cassel can't get the passing game going.

Fastphilly
09-23-2010, 04:52 PM
Being that I watch the game on TV I can't see the whole field, the one play I did see online that showd the entire field was the deep pass to Chambers that was picked..Dwayne was running a seam route on the other side and had him beat by a couple steps and Cassel never looked his way, to top it off the pass to Chambers was badly underthrown. So yes Cassel is the problem when that play is disected.

Hayvern
09-23-2010, 05:08 PM
If you watch the video of the INT at cleveland and everyone that is saying Bowe was open for a TD keep watching he breaks his route off right toward the safety. What do you want matt to do throw a catch ball in between bowe and the safety and best man gets it? Now Matt didn't even look that way but still it's the little things.

Everything you guys have said is true. Matt does Birddog SOMETIMES not all the times i've seen him look around. But what makes it hard for him is just like somebody said the RIGHT side of the pocket colapses and he can feel it so he has to find a place to step. When your trying to look at 3 different options and about 5 defenders to see where they are as opposed to where you want to place the ball then you can feel a push coming from your right it makes it hard. That is why alot of times people say cassel gets happy feet. He tries to step up in the pocket but it's collapsing in from the right so he jumps back to find a gap to escape from..

He does need to get better or we need to maybe try Asomoah at RG. To get cassel a pocket he can step into.

Watch Manning or Brady or Brees. They all get happy feet except brady who just kind bounces. But they all shuffle their feet. The difference is their pocket is a pocket and not a half U. Cassel is pretty damn accurate when not getting pressure and he's got plenty of arm. I laugh still when everyone says that.

Largely you are correct, and maybe on that play, that is not the route Bowe was supposed to run, or maybe it was, in the end, we need a QB that can hit that guy when he IS open and face it, he was open enough to be able to be thrown to on that play.

Of course, that is one particular play that I am sure he, Weis and Haley have all seen. They have seen the very things we are talking about and are trying to correct them.

The play of the O-Line is going to be harder to correct.

matthewschiefs
09-23-2010, 05:17 PM
What? Do you really think Bowe decides what routes he's going to run? Our entire passing system is designed for the QB to get a ball to a spot, not to the player. If Bowe runs an extra yard because that's the first down line, the ball bounces off the turf.

Bowe ran the route he ran because the play called for it. No more, no less.

Most likely Bowe misjudged the distance that he had gone. WRS don't always have time to take a look at where the chains are. I find it hard to think that our coaching staff is not smart enough to have our WRS run for the 1st down. I think it's likely Bowe just misjudged his spot.

melted ice
09-23-2010, 05:55 PM
Most likely Bowe misjudged the distance that he had gone. WRS don't always have time to take a look at where the chains are. I find it hard to think that our coaching staff is not smart enough to have our WRS run for the 1st down. I think it's likely Bowe just misjudged his spot.

Herm's OCs liked to call 3 yd passing plays on 3rd and 5.

bwilliams
09-23-2010, 06:15 PM
Most likely Bowe misjudged the distance that he had gone. WRS don't always have time to take a look at where the chains are. I find it hard to think that our coaching staff is not smart enough to have our WRS run for the 1st down. I think it's likely Bowe just misjudged his spot.

Except that he wan't talking about Bowe running out of bounds a yard short. He was talking about Bowe running a five-yard route when the first down's six yards. Bowe can't decide to run his routes differently because of where the marker is. They've practiced whatever play that was a million times in practice. Cassel is going to throw to the spot Bowe will be, which is five yards.

The route was part of the play called. We know Bowe ran the route correct because he caught the ball. It didn't go over his head or fall at his feet. Whichever play Weis called required Bowe to run a five-yard out. Either the playcall was bad or Bowe wasn't Cassel's primary target. But to blame a WR because he ran the play called is nuts.

fairladyZ
09-23-2010, 06:28 PM
Largely you are correct, and maybe on that play, that is not the route Bowe was supposed to run, or maybe it was, in the end, we need a QB that can hit that guy when he IS open and face it, he was open enough to be able to be thrown to on that play.

Of course, that is one particular play that I am sure he, Weis and Haley have all seen. They have seen the very things we are talking about and are trying to correct them.

The play of the O-Line is going to be harder to correct.


well the issue is on that play Bowe is running about a 25 yard IN. He beats his man by a few steps but that at about 20-25 yrds cuts IN toward the safety.... Cassel knows this as he has to know what the recievers are doing on each play. Bowe is running down the field and never looks back until he makes the cut. If cassel throws to bowe, he doesn't know it's coming and it's an incomplete pass as the ball will just go over him or hit him. Chambers was a go route meaning at about 20-25 yards he looks back for the ball in the air. Which is what he did but he did not make the proper adjustment on the underthrown ball. Bowe never looked back till the cut. Now cassel's first read if you watch is Pope on about a 7 yard sit down. But the LB drops back. In the pre snap read cassel and you can look and see there are 2 deep safeties. On sitting about where BOWE is to cut in and the other on chambers side. When cassel goes to make his first read he sees the LB has stepped back infront of Pope which means the safety behind is sitting in Bowes cut spot so cassel cannot throw the ball to the spot bowe will be cause there is a corner trailing and a safety squating.. The other safety drifts back to play center field and cassel throws the GO hoping chambers can make a play and knowing the deep saftey cannot get over in time. But we know the end result.

SIC J
09-23-2010, 06:32 PM
The sad part is, supposedly Cassel is the most familiar with this offensive scheme yet he's the worst skill position starter.

We all get it, you don't like Cassell and you aren't gonna have anything good to say about him until he, in your eyes, proves otherwise. No need to mention it in every thread.


And the whole Bowe ran the route a yard short argument, my guess is that he ran the right route. I think they just expected him to get the extra yard after the catch. It just didn't work out that way that time. Or maybe the Brown defender just made a better play that particular play.

Pro_Angler
09-23-2010, 06:50 PM
maybe bowes ball was to be delivered at his break? thats why he didnt look till then.. We dont know so why pitch a fir about it?

figcrostic
09-24-2010, 01:19 AM
I keep reading about how most people have little to no faith that #7 is gonna be the guy here. Granted his performance has been mediocre at best but it's not as if he has had any help. I am too lazy to look it up but am pretty sure the chiefs were at the top of the league in dropped balls last year with D-Bowe having a lot of them. Chambers made no effort to break up that pick on the underthrown ball last week. They run routes short on 3rd and long situations. Is it just me or do our wide receivers have as much to blame as our qb.

The only way to figure this out is to look at Bowe's number before Matt Cassell go into KC and after, you will clearly see Bowe's numbers went down. Cassel just isn't a good qb sometimes he looks okay but for the most part he doesn't do a whole lot. Could his WR's do more absolutely but I'm putting it more on Cassel many of the balls he has thrown to his WR's have been poorly placed at and poorly thrown. But since he seems to be here for good I just pray he magically gets better.

stricken721
09-24-2010, 01:21 AM
The only way to figure this out is to look at Bowe's number before Matt Cassell go into KC and after, you will clearly see Bowe's numbers went down. Cassel just isn't a good qb sometimes he looks okay but for the most part he doesn't do a whole lot. Could his WR's do more absolutely but I'm putting it more on Cassel many of the balls he has thrown to his WR's have been poorly placed at and poorly thrown. But since he seems to be here for good I just pray he magically gets better.

Bowe's numbers also went down because he was out for 5 games, 1 for injury and 4 for violating league rules.

Fastphilly
09-24-2010, 01:27 AM
The only way to figure this out is to look at Bowe's number before Matt Cassell go into KC and after, you will clearly see Bowe's numbers went down. Cassel just isn't a good qb sometimes he looks okay but for the most part he doesn't do a whole lot. Could his WR's do more absolutely but I'm putting it more on Cassel many of the balls he has thrown to his WR's have been poorly placed at and poorly thrown. But since he seems to be here for good I just pray he magically gets better.

Those numbers are misconstrued. Tony Gonzalez demanded alot of attention from defences which freed up Bowe against lesser talent and no double teams.

bwilliams
09-24-2010, 01:40 AM
Bowe's numbers also went down because he was out for 5 games, 1 for injury and 4 for violating league rules.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. So if your WR misses 1/3 of the season, he's going to get fewer catches, yards, and TDs? I'd never have guessed.

:D

stricken721
09-24-2010, 01:45 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. So if your WR misses 1/3 of the season, he's going to get fewer catches, yards, and TDs? I'd never have guessed.

:D

They do.. imagine that.

nigeriannightmare
09-24-2010, 09:59 AM
Except that he wan't talking about Bowe running out of bounds a yard short. He was talking about Bowe running a five-yard route when the first down's six yards. Bowe can't decide to run his routes differently because of where the marker is. They've practiced whatever play that was a million times in practice. Cassel is going to throw to the spot Bowe will be, which is five yards.

The route was part of the play called. We know Bowe ran the route correct because he caught the ball. It didn't go over his head or fall at his feet. Whichever play Weis called required Bowe to run a five-yard out. Either the playcall was bad or Bowe wasn't Cassel's primary target. But to blame a WR because he ran the play called is nuts.


You can not be serious, on 3rd and 6 the goal is to get a frist down it was a drive killer because bowe didn't know where he was on the field there is no way in hell coaches say you run a 5 yard route no more no less regardess of where the frist down marker.

BOWE LED THE LEAGUE IN DROPPED BALLS LAST YEAR AND THAT'S A FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK!

nigeriannightmare
09-24-2010, 10:13 AM
Except that he wan't talking about Bowe running out of bounds a yard short. He was talking about Bowe running a five-yard route when the first down's six yards. Bowe can't decide to run his routes differently because of where the marker is. They've practiced whatever play that was a million times in practice. Cassel is going to throw to the spot Bowe will be, which is five yards.

The route was part of the play called. We know Bowe ran the route correct because he caught the ball. It didn't go over his head or fall at his feet. Whichever play Weis called required Bowe to run a five-yard out. Either the playcall was bad or Bowe wasn't Cassel's primary target. But to blame a WR because he ran the play called is nuts.


fyi I had to listen most of the game on the radio as we were driving back from KC after taking my daughther to the Dora Live show at the Midland. Len and Mtich went off on D-Bowe for running a short route. And we can all agree len doesn't sugar coat and tels you how it is.

Listen I am just saying that Cassel, I think has proved he has the toughness to be this league. In New Engand he had Wes Welker and Randy Moss, we do not have that kind of taent.

yashi
09-24-2010, 10:18 AM
fyi I had to listen most of the game on the radio as we were driving back from KC after taking my daughther to the Dora Live show at the Midland. Len and Mtich went off on D-Bowe for running a short route. And we can all agree len doesn't sugar coat and tels you how it is.

Listen I am just saying that Cassel, I think has proved he has the toughness to be this league. In New Engand he had Wes Welker and Randy Moss, we do not have that kind of taent.

Being tough isn't enough to win football games though, unfortunately. You have to be good.

kilobytes
09-24-2010, 10:44 PM
Both. Mainly the QB. Chambers has been reliable. Bowe is covered the best but has had what....3 or 4 receptions!?!? Has he even thrown to anyone else?

Hayvern
09-25-2010, 01:43 AM
Both. Mainly the QB. Chambers has been reliable. Bowe is covered the best but has had what....3 or 4 receptions!?!? Has he even thrown to anyone else?

Yeah, Moeaki, McCluster, a handful of others. No one is leading the pack by all that much, except for maybe Moeacki.

Ryfo18
09-25-2010, 01:48 AM
Cassel's biggest weakness is his inability to throw the ball accurately 15 yards downfield. It's painful to watch him miss these throws to open receivers.

kilobytes
09-25-2010, 01:55 AM
Yeah, Moeaki, McCluster, a handful of others. No one is leading the pack by all that much, except for maybe Moeacki.

I forgot about the TE. But really there isn't much else.