Lets talk about the O-line

[Seek]

Yes, I know the Chiefs offense was the top ranked rushing team, and yes Cassel has hardly been sacked. However, I find it very odd that the Chiefs can rarely get short yardage when it is needed. So much that the Chiefs have started to throw more on 3 and 2 than they do on 3rd and 6.

I have seen Brian Waters get his butt kicked two weeks in a row. I mean horribly kicked. Our Right Tackels no longer can block anyone, and Brandon Albert is getting beat often.

The offensive line is to inconsitent and I tend to think that the only reason they have not been completely exposed is due to the running style of Charles and the play calling by Weis.

While I see people arleady claiming to draft a WR, and OLB , safety or a new corner. This o-line is not sound, and is old in two positions. We had better be looking at up upgrades next year.

[brdempsey69]

I agree with you Seek 100%. LT should be the 1st priority in 2011 draft & they can move Albert to LG or RT where he will fare much better than he has at LT. Clearly, passing on Russell Okung in the 2010 draft was a huge mistake & it's starting to backfire on the Chiefs, just like I suspected it would. Perhaps in the 2011 draft they may get another chance at drafting a real LT ( Sherrod from Mississippi State or Barksdale from LSU ) and if they do, they had damn well better take him this time.

[Seek]

I am not sure about Okung VS. Berry, but and I like McCluster and Arenas, but I think there should have been more attention.

I think John Asamoah (sp?) did well filling in for Waters, but I do think they need to address a couple of positions in early round picks at least for grooming or depth.

There is push up the middle in short yard situations. Turning the ball over on downs starting on the 1 was insane. We can't get enough push to gain one yard. That is sad. That stands out to me more than rushing for 178 yards a game, or lack of sacks.

I wonder how Good Cassel could really be no worrying about who will hit him, and giving the receiver time to get open. There was on play last week, that the O-line gave him all day and he hit Bowe against Champ on a very good throw.

[figcrostic]

Yes, I know the Chiefs offense was the top ranked rushing team, and yes Cassel has hardly been sacked. However, I find it very odd that the Chiefs can rarely get short yardage when it is needed. So much that the Chiefs have started to throw more on 3 and 2 than they do on 3rd and 6.

I have seen Brian Waters get his butt kicked two weeks in a row. I mean horribly kicked. Our Right Tackels no longer can block anyone, and Brandon Albert is getting beat often.

The offensive line is to inconsitent and I tend to think that the only reason they have not been completely exposed is due to the running style of Charles and the play calling by Weis.

While I see people arleady claiming to draft a WR, and OLB , safety or a new corner. This o-line is not sound, and is old in two positions. We had better be looking at up upgrades next year.

Can I get an AMEN on that!!

YouTube - Coming to America funny part

[honda522]

Too me, it looked like a lack of effort in the first quarter...It looked line no one on the team wanted to be there.

[matthewschiefs]

Too me, it looked like a lack of effort in the first quarter...It looked line no one on the team wanted to be there.

THIS

You don't let Tim Tebow go untouched into the endzone if you are giveing 100% effort. This weeks game we didn't show up and no one would have made a diffrance if we had drafted anyone eles.

[brdempsey69]

I am not sure about Okung VS. Berry......

I'm sure.

[matthewschiefs]

I'm sure.

I don't think we can ever be sure. We will never know how Okung would have fit with this team. We will only know how Berry will fit with this team.

Berry has done nothing to make his being drafted 5th a bad pick. YES he has made mistakes but EVERY NFL rookie will. Okung has made some and he would have for us as well. It's far to early to no who will have the better carrer. And who was the better pick.

[brdempsey69]

I don't think we can ever be sure. We will never know how Okung would have fit with this team. We will only know how Berry will fit with this team.

Berry has done nothing to make his being drafted 5th a bad pick. YES he has made mistakes but EVERY NFL rookie will. Okung has made some and he would have for us as well. It's far to early to no who will have the better carrer. And who was the better pick.

Okung would have fit in just fine, just like Willie Roaf did when he was brought in 2002, even though the Chiefs had 1999 #1 pick John Tait playing LT ( and he was a better LT than Albert, BTW ). I've watched Okung and when he's been healthy, he's been a real stud. He handled Julius Peppers like a champ and he did not make mistakes.

Berry has done nothing to justify being drafted at #5 overall. He's made no impact in the Chiefs pass defense & has been a pigeon for WR's and TE's that are skilled route runners. Just look what Jabar Gaffney did to him on Denvers 3rd TD of the game. He beat Berry by 5 miles. Sorry, but to say that Berry's done nothing to make him a bad pick at #5 overall just isn't true.

The Chiefs would have been better off to resign Page & draft Okung.

[Three7s]

Guys, we don't need a freaking LT. What we DO need is a center and another guard. Maybe a RT if B-Rich doesn't improve any.

[brdempsey69]

Guys, we don't need a freaking LT. What we DO need is a center and another guard. Maybe a RT if B-Rich doesn't improve any.

Yes, they do need a LT. Albert was Guard in college and the better DE's beat him resoundingly. Just look what the Jags Aaron Kampman & the Colts Dwight Freeney did against Albert. They beat him silly and were getting constant pressure on Cassel. Albert would be better served at either LG or RT. If you're willing to stick with Albert as the LT, then you can forget about any post-season success ( assuming the Chiefs ever make it there ) as those are the type of DE's that he would have to face.

[Ryfo18]

Guys, we don't need a freaking LT. What we DO need is a center and another guard. Maybe a RT if B-Rich doesn't improve any.

I tend to agree with this. Albert continues to improve at the position, and it seems like Pioli would agree with this statement. I remember last year when Brian Waters was raving about how good Albert was playing. A lot of the sacks given up by the O-line are just wide receivers not getting open. I think we should look to improve there first and it will make everyone look better. I have been encouraged by what I've seen from Bowe, but everyone after that is nobody to brag home to mom about.

I don't think Julius Peppers is the best gauge for dominating Defensive Ends. He has 2 sacks this year through 9 games. Those sacks came against Jeff Backus (arguably one of the worst LT's in the league) and David Diehl of the Giants (also pretty bad).

[brdempsey69]

I tend to agree with this. Albert continues to improve at the position, and it seems like Pioli would agree with this statement. I remember last year when Brian Waters was raving about how good Albert was playing. A lot of the sacks given up by the O-line are just wide receivers not getting open. I think we should look to improve there first and it will make everyone look better. I have been encouraged by what I've seen from Bowe, but everyone after that is nobody to brag home to mom about.

I don't think Julius Peppers is the best gauge for dominating Defensive Ends. He has 2 sacks this year through 9 games. Those sacks came against Jeff Backus (arguably one of the worst LT's in the league) and David Diehl of the Giants (also pretty bad).

No, Albert is not improving at the LT position -- he's been there for 3 years and is as good as he is going to get at that position & it isn't good enough. And I don't care if Pioli thinks he's improving or what Brian Waters says. Waters has been singing the same song for the last 4 years about nothing being wrong with the O-Line, when anybody who's watched them can clearly see otherwise. Could it be that Waters was afraid of losing his roster spot if the Chiefs had drafted Russell Okung? Quite frankly, Waters is washed up and I'm looking forward to his departure.

And regarding Peppers, he is one of the better pass rushers in the game, even if he does have only 2 sacks, he still has put a lot of pressure on opposing QB's & I'll bet he'd whip Albert.

[Ryfo18]

No, Albert is not improving at the LT position -- he's been there for 3 years and is as good as he is going to get at that position & it isn't good enough. And I don't care if Pioli thinks he's improving or what Brian Waters says. Waters has been singing the same song for the last 4 years about nothing being wrong with the O-Line, when anybody who's watched them can clearly see otherwise. Could it be that Waters was afraid of losing his roster spot if the Chiefs had drafted Russell Okung? Quite frankly, Waters is washed up and I'm looking forward to his departure.

And regarding Peppers, he is one of the better pass rushers in the game, even if he does have only 2 sacks, he still has put a lot of pressure on opposing QB's & I'll bet he'd whip Albert.

Your arguments are based on hypotheticals and assume that Peppers has been playing at the same elite level he always has. The Bears are 29th in the league in sacks, so it's not like he's taking double teams and freeing up other guys to sack the quarterback either.

The fact of the matter is you cited two guys in Kampman and Freeney who are among the the best defenesive ends in the league. Albert gave up 1 sack total between these guys. If you look at the majority of the sacks given up by the Chiefs this year they've come from coverage and Cassel having to hold onto the ball too long. Two sacks through 9 games, that's better than a whole lot of teams can say of their LT position. Your boy Okung has allowed that in 3 games. But I guess since he shut down the almighty Julius Peppers he's the best LT ever.

[CapitalT]

I was probably the first to complain about our first OL draft pick going in the 3rd round. However, considering how good our draft was, I wouldn't change a thing.

Lilja and Wiegmann have worked out better than I thought but we still need help up front. Wiegmann is 37 and Waters is 33. O'Callaghan is a bit of a weak link.

We'll learn a lot about the talent we have in the upcoming weeks. I'm sure there will be some surprises.

[brdempsey69]

Your arguments are based on hypotheticals and assume that Peppers has been playing at the same elite level he always has. The Bears are 29th in the league in sacks, so it's not like he's taking double teams and freeing up other guys to sack the quarterback either.

The fact of the matter is you cited two guys in Kampman and Freeney who are among the the best defenesive ends in the league. Albert gave up 1 sack total between these guys. If you look at the majority of the sacks given up by the Chiefs this year they've come from coverage and Cassel having to hold onto the ball too long. Two sacks through 9 games, that's better than a whole lot of teams can say of their LT position. Your boy Okung has allowed that in 3 games. But I guess since he shut down the almighty Julius Peppers he's the best LT ever.

Okung has not given up any sacks. Where are you getting your info from? There was one close one against the Rams, but it was ruled an incomplete pass. I never said Okung was the best LT ever -- don't be putting words in my mouth and ripping things out of context, it just makes you look stupid -- I said he was better than Albert and the Chiefs should have drafted him. Albert gave up a lot pressures to Kampman and Freeney which would have been sacks had Cassel not thrown the ball away. He's been a beneficiary of a soft schedule and more often than not playing against teams that don't have stellar pass rushers coming at him. 2 sacks given up against mostly the nosebleeds of the NFL --BIG DEAL !!.

[Ryfo18]

STATS Hosted Solution (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=23981&team=26)

[Three7s]

I guess an LT isn't good enough for our team unless he never gives up a sack in his whole career!

I'm sorry for that kind of statement, but bashing a guy for giving up a sack or two against some pretty good DEs and LBs is kind of silly.

[matthewschiefs]

Okung would have fit in just fine, just like Willie Roaf did when he was brought in 2002, even though the Chiefs had 1999 #1 pick John Tait playing LT ( and he was a better LT than Albert, BTW ). I've watched Okung and when he's been healthy, he's been a real stud. He handled Julius Peppers like a champ and he did not make mistakes.

Berry has done nothing to justify being drafted at #5 overall. He's made no impact in the Chiefs pass defense & has been a pigeon for WR's and TE's that are skilled route runners. Just look what Jabar Gaffney did to him on Denvers 3rd TD of the game. He beat Berry by 5 miles. Sorry, but to say that Berry's done nothing to make him a bad pick at #5 overall just isn't true.

The Chiefs would have been better off to resign Page & draft Okung.

First off you THINK Okung would have fit in fine. We DON'T And WILL NEVER really no

Your saying Berry was a bad pick after 9 games? Not even one year to get adjusted to the NFL. In his 1st year Peyton Manning threw 28 picks to 26 tds. Under your judgment he was a bad pick for the colts. Go tell that to a colts fan. Hell in his first couple of games Ryan leaf looked like an impact QB so that means that was a good pick for the Chargers right? It's far to early to tell weather or not Berry was a good pick. It takes TIME for players to devolpe. It's rare that a ROOKIE comes in and makes an impact right away.

I was before the draft right with you saying that we should have picked on the lines. I didn't think that a safety would help this team much. I think Berry has made an impact. We are not seeing our defensive backfield miss tackles they should make a much as we did a season ago. Berry has been blamed for a lot but he was not the only one on those plays that failed. Berry has been fine given time he can be great. But you HAVE TO give him time to devolpe into an NFL player.

[Ryfo18]

Branden Albert - 2 False Start, 2 Holding, 2 Sacks
Jake Long - 2 False Start, 2 Holding, 2 Sacks
Ryan Clady - 1 False Start, 1 Holding, 4.5 Sacks
Joe Thomas - 2 False Start, 2 Holding, 2 Sacks
D'Brickashaw Ferguson - 2 False Start, 2 Holding, 2 Sacks
Michael Roos - 0 Penalties, 4 sacks
Trent Williams - 1 False Start, 3 Holding, 5.50 sacks (7 Games)
Russell Okung - 0 Penalties, 2 Sacks (3 Games)

You can sit here and argue with me all day that Albert sucks, I'm not going to believe it. I wish I could find stats on quarterback pressures but had no luck. But in 2 big categories that matter (penalties and sacks) he's up there with the best LT's in the league. Not to mention he blocks for the top rushing team in the league as well.

Just b/c our LT gets beat by All-Pro guys like Aaron Kampman or Dwight Freeney doesn't mean it's time to get a new LT. Did he suck last year? Absolutely. Is he showing tremendous improvement? Absolutely.

[Ryfo18]

Found another intersting tidbit, the Chiefs lead the league with 19 10+ yard runs when running to the left side. Now I realize this has a lot to do with Jamaal Charles, but if you look to the right side of the line there have only been 11 10+ yard runs.

NFL Stats: by Team Category (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE _LINE&archive=false&d-447263-o=2&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_LEFT_10PLUS_YDS_EACH&d-447263-n=1)

[brdempsey69]

First off you THINK Okung would have fit in fine. We DON'T And WILL NEVER really no

Your saying Berry was a bad pick after 9 games? Not even one year to get adjusted to the NFL. In his 1st year Peyton Manning threw 28 picks to 26 tds. Under your judgment he was a bad pick for the colts. Go tell that to a colts fan. Hell in his first couple of games Ryan leaf looked like an impact QB so that means that was a good pick for the Chargers right? It's far to early to tell weather or not Berry was a good pick. It takes TIME for players to devolpe. It's rare that a ROOKIE comes in and makes an impact right away.

I was before the draft right with you saying that we should have picked on the lines. I didn't think that a safety would help this team much. I think Berry has made an impact. We are not seeing our defensive backfield miss tackles they should make a much as we did a season ago. Berry has been blamed for a lot but he was not the only one on those plays that failed. Berry has been fine given time he can be great. But you HAVE TO give him time to devolpe into an NFL player.

I don't think it, I know Okung would have fit in. Why? Because he's a football player & a damn good one at his position -- and that's all it takes. Besides, OT's drafted in the top 15 have the lowest bust rate of any position. Please explain how he would not have fit in. You can't. Plain and simple. He would have fit in just like any other O-Line they've brought in, be it Albert or Asamoah or Lilja, etc. Do you suppose people were saying Willie Roaf wasn't a good fit when the Chiefs brought him in in 2002? If they were, he made them look like idiots.

Berry's made an impact? LOL. Apparently you don't remember another Safety the Chiefs drafted out of Tennessee by the name of Dale Carter in 1992. Carter's coverage skills were good enough that they moved him to CB. He had 7 INT's and 2 punt returns for TD's. Sure he made rookie mistakes, but, unlike Berry, he went full speed on every play whereas Berry often looks lazy. Rare that a rookie makes an impact? Pure rubbish. It happens every year. Look no further than Dexter McCluster. The Eric Berry worshipers were stating over and over about what a huge impact he was going to make and that he was the ultimate difference maker, but he's not even been remotely close to being as good as I hoped he would be and there is no comparison between him and Dale Carter.


STATS Hosted Solution (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=23981&team=26)

That stat listing is totally bogus. Okung has not given up any sacks. Go watch all of Seattle's games that he has played in. I'm subscriber to NFL Game Rewind & I've watched the games & can tell you for a fact, that there was one play against the Rams that was ruled an incomplete pass and that was closest that Okung came to giving up a sack.

As for run stats that you put in your later post, I never said run blocking was a problem for Albert -- it's pass blocking against the better DE's in the league. I also never said that "Albert sucked", that was you that said that. I've said that he's OK to a point, but the Chiefs need better, if they want to get to the post season and advance.



Just b/c our LT gets beat by All-Pro guys like Aaron Kampman or Dwight Freeney doesn't mean it's time to get a new LT. Did he suck last year? Absolutely. Is he showing tremendous improvement? Absolutely.

Yes it does. It means the Chiefs need someone better at the position. or else they aren't going anywhere in the post season & probably not getting there to start with. Showed improvement? At what? Making a loud beer fart in a whirlwind? It certainly hasn't been pass-blocking against the leagues better DE's. But hey, if you want Albert as your LT, you got him, and if you and Pioli think he's improving & that the Chiefs are going places with him, well I'm sure that the Oakland Raiders and their fans are winking their eye at the both of you and saying to themselves "Keep thinking that way" :D.

[Ryfo18]

I don't think it, I know Okung would have fit in. Why? Because he's a football player & a damn good one at his position -- and that's all it takes. Besides, OT's drafted in the top 15 have the lowest bust rate of any position. Please explain how he would not have fit in. You can't. Plain and simple. He would have fit in just like any other O-Line they've brought in, be it Albert or Asamoah or Lilja, etc. Do you suppose people were saying Willie Roaf wasn't a good fit when the Chiefs brought him in in 2002? If they were, he made them look like idiots.

Berry's made an impact? LOL. Apparently you don't remember another Safety the Chiefs drafted out of Tennessee by the name of Dale Carter in 1992. Carter's coverage skills were good enough that they moved him to CB. He had 7 INT's and 2 punt returns for TD's. Sure he made rookie mistakes, but, unlike Berry, he went full speed on every play whereas Berry often looks lazy. Rare that a rookie makes an impact? Pure rubbish. It happens every year. Look no further than Dexter McCluster. The Eric Berry worshipers were stating over and over about what a huge impact he was going to make and that he was the ultimate difference maker, but he's not even been remotely close to being as good as I hoped he would be and there is no comparison between him and Dale Carter.



That stat listing is totally bogus. Okung has not given up any sacks. Go watch all of Seattle's games that he has played in. I'm subscriber to NFL Game Rewind & I've watched the games & can tell you for a fact, that there was one play against the Rams that was ruled an incomplete pass and that was closest that Okung came to giving up a sack.

As for run stats that you put in your later post, I never said run blocking was a problem for Albert -- it's pass blocking against the better DE's in the league. I also never said that "Albert sucked", that was you that said that. I've said that he's OK to a point, but the Chiefs need better, if they want to get to the post season and advance.



Yes it does. It means the Chiefs need someone better at the position. or else they aren't going anywhere in the post season & probably not getting there to start with. Showed improvement? At what? Making a loud beer fart in a whirlwind? It certainly hasn't been pass-blocking against the leagues better DE's. But hey, if you want Albert as your LT, you got him, and if you and Pioli think he's improving & that the Chiefs are going places with him, well I'm sure that the Oakland Raiders and their fans are winking their eye at the both of you and saying to themselves "Keep thinking that way" :D.

I would love to go back and watch Seattle's games. I'll see if I can get the quick hits on Sunday ticket from that game.

As far as the source, I'm not going to question it. Stats LLC is the biggest provider of data. If you go to their about page you'll see their the brains behind the stats that ESPN, NFL, NBA, Fox Sports, etc...

Here's a typical job posting for a data collector, they don't hire schlubs off the street (I only know this b/c I've been interested in a job before with them):


STATS is seeking applicants with pro or college football playing experience for an opening to assist with football video analysis during the fall. This is a year-round position, and excellent working knowledge of other sports is critical. Other duties include data entry and stat-checking.

I found another random posting of a guy claiming Okung had given up 2 sacks: FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Cover-2: Revisiting the Rookies (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/cover-3/2010/cover-2-revisiting-rookies) (look for Hunter)

I know you can't believe everything you read on the internet, but it's all I have to go off of unless I can find the game.

[matthewschiefs]

I don't think it, I know Okung would have fit in. Why? Because he's a football player & a damn good one at his position -- and that's all it takes. Besides, OT's drafted in the top 15 have the lowest bust rate of any position. Please explain how he would not have fit in. You can't. Plain and simple. He would have fit in just like any other O-Line they've brought in, be it Albert or Asamoah or Lilja, etc. Do you suppose people were saying Willie Roaf wasn't a good fit when the Chiefs brought him in in 2002? If they were, he made them look like idiots.

Berry's made an impact? LOL. Apparently you don't remember another Safety the Chiefs drafted out of Tennessee by the name of Dale Carter in 1992. Carter's coverage skills were good enough that they moved him to CB. He had 7 INT's and 2 punt returns for TD's. Sure he made rookie mistakes, but, unlike Berry, he went full speed on every play whereas Berry often looks lazy. Rare that a rookie makes an impact? Pure rubbish. It happens every year. Look no further than Dexter McCluster. The Eric Berry worshipers were stating over and over about what a huge impact he was going to make and that he was the ultimate difference maker, but he's not even been remotely close to being as good as I hoped he would be and there is no comparison between him and Dale Carter.




Just because a guy has a lot of talent does not mean he would have fit what Haley weis and the Chiefs have planned on offense. You can have a lot of talent and not be a good team if it does not fit. See the Dallas Cowboys. See the Vikings. They have a lot more talent then there records would say. In anther sport talent alone The Miami heat would win just about every game they last i saw were only 5-4 . We WILL NEVER no how Okung would have fit in KC. That is FACT. You can think it would have worked but We don't no.

I do remember Dale Carter. Yes Rookies can make an Impact right away like he did. But There are some darn good football players that don't. Again Peyton manning. Look at his first year. You would have got rid of him if you were in charge of the Colts. I think it worked out well for the colts even though his rookie year was lackluster. How about Brett Farve. As a rookie he was not even good enough to see the field on game day. I think Falcon fans would rethink that trade in a heartbeat knowing what we know now. The Dale Carters are more the exception then the Rule.

Do you remember what our secoundary looked like a year ago. Mike Brown missing tackles allowing guys to run right in the endzone coasting us points and wins. And he was a Vet. Sure Berry has made mistakes but hes better then Brown did for us. And he is only at the start of his carrer. It might not have been the best pick for this team I will grant you that but we CAN NOT say that it was a bad pick.

[Ryfo18]

From the St. Louis game, go look at LB David Vobora's sack (Okung fails to recognize the zone blitz)...and you already pointed out the play where James Hall beats him with a spin move. That was overturned and ruled incomplete. Says he gave up 2 sacks, in 3 games. Not sure what the 3rd game he played in was outside Chicago and St. Louis.

[brdempsey69]

Just because a guy has a lot of talent does not mean he would have fit what Haley weis and the Chiefs have planned on offense. You can have a lot of talent and not be a good team if it does not fit. See the Dallas Cowboys. See the Vikings. They have a lot more talent then there records would say. In anther sport talent alone The Miami heat would win just about every game they last i saw were only 5-4 . We WILL NEVER no how Okung would have fit in KC. That is FACT. You can think it would have worked but We don't no.

I do remember Dale Carter. Yes Rookies can make an Impact right away like he did. But There are some darn good football players that don't. Again Peyton manning. Look at his first year. You would have got rid of him if you were in charge of the Colts. I think it worked out well for the colts even though his rookie year was lackluster. How about Brett Farve. As a rookie he was not even good enough to see the field on game day. I think Falcon fans would rethink that trade in a heartbeat knowing what we know now. The Dale Carters are more the exception then the Rule.

Do you remember what our secoundary looked like a year ago. Mike Brown missing tackles allowing guys to run right in the endzone coasting us points and wins. And he was a Vet. Sure Berry has made mistakes but hes better then Brown did for us. And he is only at the start of his carrer. It might not have been the best pick for this team I will grant you that but we CAN NOT say that it was a bad pick.

You gotta be kidding. With the O-Line that the Chiefs have now, if an O-Lineman can hold his d!ck in his hand, he can fit in with the Chiefs. O-Line coach Bill Muir wanted the Chiefs to draft Okung at #5.

Chiefs Coach Wanted Russell Okung | KC Chiefs Blog (http://www.kcchiefsblog.com/draft/chiefs-coach-wanted-russell-okung)

Tell me, why would Muir want the Chiefs to draft Okung if Muir didn't think that Okung could fit in. Okung is a solid citizen, hard worker, inhumanly strong and would have been more than happy to have been drafted by KC and would have done whatever the coaches asked of him -- and he could play for any team in the NFL, as he's already demonstrated when he's been on the field. THAT'S HOW I KNOW THAT HE WOULD HAVE FIT IN JUST FINE !! Barring injuries, of course, but that holds true for any player. It's not "we" who don't know how Okung would've fit in -- it's YOU who doesn't know because that's a silly whim that you have put into your own mind.

As for Berry, he looks like a Mike Brown clone to me, thus far, and I've seen many rookie Safeties through the years play a hell of a lot better than Berry has thus far. I can say it was a bad pick -- he was drafted too high, way overpaid, the Safety position provides minimal positional value, and it didn't address the big elephant in the room -- the O-Line -- bad decision and bad choice. I never said anything about getting rid of Berry. Do you not think that I'm fully aware that they couldn't get rid of him at this point even if they wanted to due to the contract that they signed him to and that they are stuck with him for the time being for better or worse? You're statement implying that I would get rid of him when you suggested that I'd get rid of Manning is not only way off-base, but not even remotely in the ballpark.

I will say this: Berry can be likened to that shiny sports car that everybody wants, but once they get it, they realize it was mistake because they can't pay the taxes on it, they can't haul anything in it, and it gets poor mileage and come to the realization that they'd have been better served with the Mack Truck instead ( O-Lineman ).



From the St. Louis game, go look at LB David Vobora's sack (Okung fails to recognize the zone blitz)...and you already pointed out the play where James Hall beats him with a spin move. That was overturned and ruled incomplete. Says he gave up 2 sacks, in 3 games. Not sure what the 3rd game he played in was outside Chicago and St. Louis.

I saw the sack by Vobora & it was because he came clean off of the edge & another defender in front of Okung started forward and then dropped back. Albert or any other OT more than likely would have given up the sack on that play as well ( assuming you want to charge the OT with giving up the sack on that play seeing that the defender did not go head on with the OT ). It wasn't because Vobora went head to head with Okung & beat him.

[pbatrucker]

I know for a fact Okung has missed playing time on two seperate occasioms this year. This has to make you wonder about his durability.

Looking ahead to next years draft. Yhere will not be an NFL quality LT available when we draft. We should be able to ger a good RT in the 2nd rd however.
I expect us to go WR, OLB or CB in the 1st rd.

ALPERT IS PLAYING AT A PRO BOWL LEVEL. STATS PROVE IT.

[matthewschiefs]

You gotta be kidding. With the O-Line that the Chiefs have now, if an O-Lineman can hold his d!ck in his hand, he can fit in with the Chiefs. O-Line coach Bill Muir wanted the Chiefs to draft Okung at #5.

Chiefs Coach Wanted Russell Okung | KC Chiefs Blog (http://www.kcchiefsblog.com/draft/chiefs-coach-wanted-russell-okung)

Tell me, why would Muir want the Chiefs to draft Okung if Muir didn't think that Okung could fit in. Okung is a solid citizen, hard worker, inhumanly strong and would have been more than happy to have been drafted by KC and would have done whatever the coaches asked of him -- and he could play for any team in the NFL, as he's already demonstrated when he's been on the field. THAT'S HOW I KNOW THAT HE WOULD HAVE FIT IN JUST FINE !! Barring injuries, of course, but that holds true for any player. It's not "we" who don't know how Okung would've fit in -- it's YOU who doesn't know because that's a silly whim that you have put into your own mind.

As for Berry, he looks like a Mike Brown clone to me, thus far, and I've seen many rookie Safeties through the years play a hell of a lot better than Berry has thus far. I can say it was a bad pick -- he was drafted too high, way overpaid, the Safety position provides minimal positional value, and it didn't address the big elephant in the room -- the O-Line -- bad decision and bad choice. I never said anything about getting rid of Berry. Do you not think that I'm fully aware that they couldn't get rid of him at this point even if they wanted to due to the contract that they signed him to and that they are stuck with him for the time being for better or worse? You're statement implying that I would get rid of him when you suggested that I'd get rid of Manning is not only way off-base, but not even remotely in the ballpark.

I will say this: Berry can be likened to that shiny sports car that everybody wants, but once they get it, they realize it was mistake because they can't pay the taxes on it, they can't haul anything in it, and it gets poor mileage and come to the realization that they'd have been better served with the Mack Truck instead ( O-Lineman ).




I saw the sack by Vobora & it was because he came clean off of the edge & another defender in front of Okung started forward and then dropped back. Albert or any other OT more than likely would have given up the sack on that play as well ( assuming you want to charge the OT with giving up the sack on that play seeing that the defender did not go head on with the OT ). It wasn't because Vobora went head to head with Okung & beat him.

So because someone wanted to draft a guy that makes it a good pick now? I am sure that the faiders WANTED to draft Jamarcus Russle. GREAT PICK. Pretty sure back in 98 there were coaches on the Colts that WANTED to draft Ryan Leaf. HORRIBLE pick of Peyton Manning. Remember how Houston was going to regret passing on Reggie Bush for years. Mario Williams anther horrible pick. One coach wanted him we didn't take him Pretty sure that means more people WANTED to draft Berry. Every coach on EVERY team wants there team to draft someone in there spot. They want a new guy to try to coach and think it will help there team. Bill Muir is no diffrent.

I would agree that safety was not the best pick for this team. I said it time and time again before the draft. But I won't pretend to know better then a guy in Pioli who has something called superbowl rings.


I find it funny that you make excuse for Okung when he makes a mistake and gives up a sack but when Brandon Carr gets smoked by a WR and Berry also makes a mistake the blame gos on Berry. Okung has made rookie mistakes just like Berry. IT HAPPENS. Okung would have made mistakes here. Just like Berry has. That fact won't change.

[brdempsey69]

So because someone wanted to draft a guy that makes it a good pick now? I am sure that the faiders WANTED to draft Jamarcus Russle. GREAT PICK. Pretty sure back in 98 there were coaches on the Colts that WANTED to draft Ryan Leaf. HORRIBLE pick of Peyton Manning. Remember how Houston was going to regret passing on Reggie Bush for years. Mario Williams anther horrible pick. One coach wanted him we didn't take him Pretty sure that means more people WANTED to draft Berry. Every coach on EVERY team wants there team to draft someone in there spot. They want a new guy to try to coach and think it will help there team. Bill Muir is no diffrent.

I would agree that safety was not the best pick for this team. I said it time and time again before the draft. But I won't pretend to know better then a guy in Pioli who has something called superbowl rings.


I find it funny that you make excuse for Okung when he makes a mistake and gives up a sack but when Brandon Carr gets smoked by a WR and Berry also makes a mistake the blame gos on Berry. Okung has made rookie mistakes just like Berry. IT HAPPENS. Okung would have made mistakes here. Just like Berry has. That fact won't change.

I did not say that Okung did not mistake, nor was I making an excuse for him. I was simply stating what happened on that play. He guessed wrong, but there's a good chance that any OT would have guessed wrong on that play with the same result. You are ripping things out of context. The draft pick examples you are giving are not good ones at all and not even close to the same scenario regarding the Chiefs 2010 draft. Not even in the ballpark

Pioli wasn't the reason that NE won 3 Super Bowls. It's Belicheck who was the major catalyst. Pioli was just along for the ride & didn't do anything sifnificant, except maybe carry his lunch to work everyday in a Donald Duck lunchbox.

[Ryfo18]

I saw the sack by Vobora & it was because he came clean off of the edge & another defender in front of Okung started forward and then dropped back. Albert or any other OT more than likely would have given up the sack on that play as well ( assuming you want to charge the OT with giving up the sack on that play seeing that the defender did not go head on with the OT ). It wasn't because Vobora went head to head with Okung & beat him.

You seem to make every excuse in the world for Okung, but when it comes to Albert (or Berry), they can't have that same courtesy.

It's a zone blitz, Okung has to react to the blitzing linebacker as soon as the defender drops back. I can't say whether or not Albert would pick this up, but I'm going to assume for now that at least once this year he's faced a similar situation and reacted fine.

[brdempsey69]

I know for a fact Okung has missed playing time on two seperate occasioms this year. This has to make you wonder about his durability.

Looking ahead to next years draft. Yhere will not be an NFL quality LT available when we draft. We should be able to ger a good RT in the 2nd rd however.
I expect us to go WR, OLB or CB in the 1st rd.

ALPERT IS PLAYING AT A PRO BOWL LEVEL. STATS PROVE IT.

The injuries to Okung were because his own teammates needlessly roll-blocked into his ankles from his blindside. A lesser man probably would have had his ankles broken both times. Has nothing to do with his durability.\

Stats prove that Albert is playing at a Pro Bowl level? That's a crock of BS. What I've seen watching the games is that he's OK to a point, but not Pro Bowl caliber.

S

[Ryfo18]

One more comment: If "Albert or any other OT more than likely would have given up the sack on that play as well", then I have to wonder why teams don't just zone blitz every play? Then when the line figures it out, start sending the defensive end instead and he'll have a clear path to the QB b/c the tackle will pick up the LB. That's a silly assumption to say that nobody can defend that play.

[brdempsey69]

You seem to make every excuse in the world for Okung, but when it comes to Albert (or Berry), they can't have that same courtesy.

It's a zone blitz, Okung has to react to the blitzing linebacker as soon as the defender drops back. I can't say whether or not Albert would pick this up, but I'm going to assume for now that at least once this year he's faced a similar situation and reacted fine.

Nope, not making excuses, simply just stating what happened on the play. He guessed wrong and it gave Varoba had a clean shot at the QB. Truth is he didn't beat Okung head to head, unlike the way Kampman and freeney did repeatedly to Albert. When he's played, Okung has performed well enough that nobody needs to make excuses for him. Wish the same could be said for Berry and Albert ( but I'm not the one trying to make excuses for them, now am I ? ).

[Ryfo18]

Nope, not making excuses, simply just stating what happened on the play. He guessed wrong and it gave Varoba had a clean shot at the QB. Truth is he didn't beat Okung head to head, unlike the way Kampman and freeney did repeatedly to Albert. When he's played, Okung has performed well enough that nobody needs to make excuses for him. Wish the same could be said for Berry and Albert ( but I'm not the one trying to make excuses for them, now am I ? ).

Like the play that James Hall abused him on...

I'm not trying to say Albert is or will ever be a better LT than Okung. It's hard to qualify who is a better left tackle. Simply pointing out that I think your view that Albert "has not improved at all" and has "peaked" in his 3rd season is extremely flawed. The guy just turned 26 years old. I also think it's flawed that your view that because Okung had a good game against Julius Peppers (who is having a miserable season since he got his payday) that he's not going to get beat by the best DE's in the game. Jared Allen didn't do much in the Vikings game against Lions LT David Diehl despite the Lions throwing the ball 43 times...Should we crown Jeff Backus?

[brdempsey69]

Like the play that James Hall abused him on...

I'm not trying to say Albert is or will ever be a better LT than Okung. It's hard to qualify who is a better left tackle. Simply pointing out that I think your view that Albert "has not improved at all" and has "peaked" in his 3rd season is extremely flawed.

You are right Hall did beat Okung on that play with an inside move. If I were to list those type of occurrences that happened to Albert it would be quite a long list. If Okung plays and gets his head handed to him in any of the upcoming games, I'll be the first to let you know.

I stand by what I said that Albert has "peaked" as you put it. I really believe that is the case. You can call it flawed if you wish, but the results that I've seen on the field the last 3 years tell me differently.

[Ryfo18]

Yes, they do need a LT. Albert was Guard in college and the better DE's beat him resoundingly. Just look what the Jags Aaron Kampman & the Colts Dwight Freeney did against Albert. They beat him silly and were getting constant pressure on Cassel. Albert would be better served at either LG or RT. If you're willing to stick with Albert as the LT, then you can forget about any post-season success ( assuming the Chiefs ever make it there ) as those are the type of DE's that he would have to face.

The Saints had not trouble winning a Super Bowl last year with a backup LT.

Anyways, I concede. Good healthy argument...Thanks! Go Chiefs!

[matthewschiefs]

I did not say that Okung did not mistake, nor was I making an excuse for him. I was simply stating what happened on that play. He guessed wrong, but there's a good chance that any OT would have guessed wrong on that play with the same result. You are ripping things out of context. The draft pick examples you are giving are not good ones at all and not even close to the same scenario regarding the Chiefs 2010 draft. Not even in the ballpark

Pioli wasn't the reason that NE won 3 Super Bowls. It's Belicheck who was the major catalyst. Pioli was just along for the ride & didn't do anything sifnificant, except maybe carry his lunch to work everyday in a Donald Duck lunchbox.

So you talk how Berry is "a clone of mike Brown" YOUR WORDS but when Okung gets beat you say well every nfl O lineman would have given up a sack on that play. Well EVERY safety will make mistakes.
You say Berry was a bad pick AFTER 9 games. I point out That Manning was not so great his rookie year how is that not a fair compareison? Because it doesn't support your arguement. All it says is that NFL Players don't make an impact or play at there best a year ago meaning that again after 9 NFL games it's far to early to say that Berry was a bad pick. I went 16 games with my manning comparisson giveing him even more games. If berry is a bad pick after 9 games under your logic that he has not made a huge impact then so was the pick of Peyton Manning. The fact is your judeging a pick after 9 NFL games. I am useing that same logic with some hall of fame plays how is that not a fair comparrison? Manning became a Hall of fame player. Berry COULD do the same he might not we don't no now. We just have to wait and see. IF and yes that's a big if Berry does become that hall of fame player is it a bad pick then?

If Pioli did not have much to do then why is it that EVERYONE you here from in the NFL has so much respect for him? I never said that he did it by himself but he was a part of it.

[brdempsey69]

The Saints had not trouble winning a Super Bowl last year with a backup LT.

Anyways, I concede. Good healthy argument...Thanks! Go Chiefs!

True, about the Saints Bushrod, the backup OT that you speak of. He's now a starter for them and pretty good one.

I hope that you and matthewschiefs turn out to be right, and Albert and Berry turn out to be Pro Bowler -- I'd really dig that. But they have to go out and do it on the field first.

[matthewschiefs]

True, about the Saints Bushrod, the backup OT that you speak of. He's now a starter for them and pretty good one.

I hope that you and matthewschiefs turn out to be right, and Albert and Berry turn out to be Pro Bowler -- I'd really dig that. But they have to go out and do it on the field first.

I hope we are right to. Berry can turn out to be a great player he can turn out to be a bust. I just think we as fans owe it to our team to let it play out on the field and let things happen. But hopefully next year this is something we all look back on and laugh at because of how well we are playing on the field.

[brdempsey69]

So you talk how Berry is "a clone of mike Brown" YOUR WORDS but when Okung gets beat you say well every nfl O lineman would have given up a sack on that play. Well EVERY safety will make mistakes.
You say Berry was a bad pick AFTER 9 games. I point out That Manning was not so great his rookie year how is that not a fair compareison? Because it doesn't support your arguement. All it says is that NFL Players don't make an impact or play at there best a year ago meaning that again after 9 NFL games it's far to early to say that Berry was a bad pick. I went 16 games with my manning comparisson giveing him even more games. If berry is a bad pick after 9 games under your logic that he has not made a huge impact then so was the pick of Peyton Manning. The fact is your judeging a pick after 9 NFL games. I am useing that same logic with some hall of fame plays how is that not a fair comparrison? Manning became a Hall of fame player. Berry COULD do the same he might not we don't no now. We just have to wait and see. IF and yes that's a big if Berry does become that hall of fame player is it a bad pick then?

If Pioli did not have much to do then why is it that EVERYONE you here from in the NFL has so much respect for him? I never said that he did it by himself but he was a part of it.

You are comparing apples to oranges when you speak of Berry and Manning. If they played the same position, that would be one thing. But as I've said before I've seen many rookie Safeties play better than he has thus far. There are those out there that are labeling Berry to be a major disappointment thus far & let's not kid ourselves -- he has been. He's been nowhere close to being as good as I had hoped for in pass coverage.

As for Okung, what happened on that sack, yes that could have happened to any OT if they had guessed wrong. Go look at the play and you can clearly see that.

[matthewschiefs]

You are comparing apples to oranges when you speak of Berry and Manning. If they played the same position, that would be one thing. But as I've said before I've seen many rookie Safeties play better than he has thus far. There are those out there that are labeling Berry to be a major disappointment thus far & let's not kid ourselves -- he has been. He's been nowhere close to being as good as I had hoped for in pass coverage.

As for Okung, what happened on that sack, yes that could have happened to any OT if they had guessed wrong. Go look at the play and you can clearly see that.

I am not trying to compare postions what I am saying is that even a great player like Peyton Manning turned out to be will sometimes struggle his rookie season. There have been QBS that have had better rookie years then Manning to and Manning would be the clear choice over them now. Judgeing a player in there rookie season is not the way to go. Berry has done nothing to make him a bad pick to date. He has done nothing to make his pick look great. Time will tell if he was a good pick or not.

I can say the same thing about some of Berrys mistakes as you do Okungs. First game for example. Eric Berry is not the first person that Gates has made look like a fool he won't be the last. And safety could have given that TD up to Gates. Berry gave up the TD woulda coulda shoulda it happens alot in the NFL.

[brdempsey69]

I am not trying to compare postions what I am saying is that even a great player like Peyton Manning turned out to be will sometimes struggle his rookie season. There have been QBS that have had better rookie years then Manning to and Manning would be the clear choice over them now. Judgeing a player in there rookie season is not the way to go. Berry has done nothing to make him a bad pick to date. He has done nothing to make his pick look great. Time will tell if he was a good pick or not.


On the contrary, I can and will judge Berry on his rookie season & hereforth -- because he proclaimed himself the best player in the draft and brags about being the highest paid safety in NFL history on his own website. Plus, the fact that myself and others that suggested we'd prefer a LT prior to the 2010 draft received all kinds of flames from the Eric Berry worshipers on various websites ( not this one ). As I said before, I'd love for him to become a Pro Bowler and it could happen. But by the same token, he could become a major bust & what we've seen thus far indicates the latter. We will see in upcoming seasons.

If you chose not to judge him by his rookie season or upcoming seasons hereforth, that's your discretion.

[matthewschiefs]

On the contrary, I can and will judge Berry on his rookie season & hereforth -- because he proclaimed himself the best player in the draft and brags about being the highest paid safety in NFL history on his own website. Plus, the fact that myself and others that suggested we'd prefer a LT prior to the 2010 draft received all kinds of flames from the Eric Berry worshipers on various websites ( not this one ). As I said before, I'd love for him to become a Pro Bowler and it could happen. But by the same token, he could become a major bust & what we've seen thus far indicates the latter. We will see in upcoming seasons.

If you chose not to judge him by his rookie season or upcoming seasons hereforth, that's your discretion.


Bad choice of words there by me. I ment you can't judge a pick in there first year. There have been MANY players that have had bad rookie years and ended up being really good. Some 1st overall picks even. Why I used Manning as an example. They have later shown that it was the right move to take them. Berry can do the same. I don't think Berry has been anything close to being a bust. Is he what a lot of people thought he would be no. But I think there expectations were a little higher then they should have been for him. Our defense has for the most part (the last game is not included in that) has been much better then a year ago. I think that Berry is a part of that.

I again was not one screaming that we needed Eric Berry. I have no problem with saying that he was not the best pick for this team. Because I stated in many threads that I felt we needed pass rush and o line help more then safety. That being said we drafted Berry I will now give him time to prove me wrong and to prove that he was indeed the best pick for this team. Will it Happen I don't no. I hope so. But We just have to wait and see.

[brdempsey69]

Bad choice of words there by me. I ment you can't judge a pick in there first year. There have been MANY players that have had bad rookie years and ended up being really good. Some 1st overall picks even. Why I used Manning as an example. They have later shown that it was the right move to take them. Berry can do the same. I don't think Berry has been anything close to being a bust. Is he what a lot of people thought he would be no. But I think there expectations were a little higher then they should have been for him. Our defense has for the most part (the last game is not included in that) has been much better then a year ago. I think that Berry is a part of that.

I again was not one screaming that we needed Eric Berry. I have no problem with saying that he was not the best pick for this team. Because I stated in many threads that I felt we needed pass rush and o line help more then safety. That being said we drafted Berry I will now give him time to prove me wrong and to prove that he was indeed the best pick for this team. Will it Happen I don't no. I hope so. But We just have to wait and see.

Agreed. everything you said was correct there. My problem is I've had a bad feeling about Eric Berry being selected all along that I haven't been able to shake off ( I even have one of his jerseys ) and it gets even worse seeing what's been happening on the field. I can't explain it other than a gut feeling.

[matthewschiefs]

Agreed. everything you said was correct there. My problem is I've had a bad feeling about Eric Berry being selected all along that I haven't been able to shake off ( I even have one of his jerseys ) and it gets even worse seeing what's been happening on the field. I can't explain it other than a gut feeling.


I get those gut feelings as well alls you can do is hope Berry makes that gut feeling go away in the years to come.

[brdempsey69]

I get those gut feelings as well alls you can do is hope Berry makes that gut feeling go away in the years to come.

Let's go back on topic with O-Line and forget about Albert, Okung, etc. What about Center? 1st round too high? Maybe 2nd round ( Tim Grunhard was a great 2nd round pick in 1990 )?

I'd like some opinions on this because it is a big-time need for the O-Line.

[rodu]

Let's go back on topic with O-Line and forget about Albert, Okung, etc. What about Center? 1st round too high? Maybe 2nd round ( Tim Grunhard was a great 2nd round pick in 1990 )?

I'd like some opinions on this because it is a big-time need for the O-Line.

2nd or 3rd round for center, I'm hoping for OLB with out first

[figcrostic]

Let's go back on topic with O-Line and forget about Albert, Okung, etc. What about Center? 1st round too high? Maybe 2nd round ( Tim Grunhard was a great 2nd round pick in 1990 )?

I'd like some opinions on this because it is a big-time need for the O-Line.

Yeah Weigman is getting old, how about Kris O'Dowd?

[brdempsey69]

2nd or 3rd round for center, I'm hoping for OLB with out first

Preferably an OLB that can rush the passer opposite Hali. Of course maybe Studebaker or Cameron Sheffield can step up to be that guy, but either way the Chiefs need a better pass rush. Any secondary without a pass-rush is going to get exposed. They can draft DB's in the 1st round till they're blue in the face, but without a pass rush, it won't matter -- case in point: 1984 -1988 when they has Lewis-Ross-Burruss-Cherry and those guys suffered without a pass rush. I'd say 2nd round is probably right for a Center.

figcrostic, I'll have to do some research on O'Dowd or maybe you can provide a link. Weisnewski from Penn State seems to be the most talked about Center candidate.

[figcrostic]

Preferably an OLB that can rush the passer opposite Hali. Of course maybe Studebaker or Cameron Sheffield can step up to be that guy, but either way the Chiefs need a better pass rush. Any secondary without a pass-rush is going to get exposed. They can draft DB's in the 1st round till they're blue in the face, but without a pass rush, it won't matter -- case in point: 1984 -1988 when they has Lewis-Ross-Burruss-Cherry and those guys suffered without a pass rush. I'd say 2nd round is probably right for a Center.

figcrostic, I'll have to do some research on O'Dowd or maybe you can provide a link. Weisnewski from Penn State seems to be the most talked about Center candidate.

Player Bio: Kristofer O'Dowd - University of Southern California Official Athletic Site (http://www.usctrojans.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/odowd_kristofer00.html)

hard to get any video since he's a center

[brdempsey69]

Player Bio: Kristofer O'Dowd - University of Southern California Official Athletic Site (http://www.usctrojans.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/odowd_kristofer00.html)

hard to get any video since he's a center

Thanks. I just thought of something. I wonder who's going to get the start at RT this Sunday. Richardson got pulled in favor of O'Cal after Richardson missed his assignment on the sack/fumble that was returned for a TD. I couldn't help but cringe at that scenario & hoped it would never happen, but it did. Richardson was doing OK to a point until last Sunday as a pass-blocker & seemed to be an up and coming player, but they pulled him off the field after that play.