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honda522
01-11-2011, 11:12 PM
Some of you might not agree with me, but I think Charlie Weiss has held the offense back this year. Playcalling this year has not been great. We never ran any reverses, flea flickers, end around or anything creative (well once or twice but...).

Then he goes and pulls this crap of telling everyone he is leaving to go to Florida 2 weeks before the end of the season. Look how the whole offense collapsed after that. Cassel, 4 Ints in 2 games. He was fine for most of the year, but after the announcement he seemed to take a step back.

In the Ravens game, same thing. With a 3 point behind score at half time, the Chiefs came out and their very first formation was 5 wide. Bowe was not even targeted at all. They seemed desperate and forced turnovers. Now not all the blame should go on the coaches, but I think its a HUGE factor.

What is your take on this whole Weiss ordeal?

2010chiefs
01-12-2011, 12:20 AM
I agree. The timing for Weis to do what he did was disrespectful to the team and the organization. How much can someone really try when they know there out of there anyways. Who knows what went on behind the scenes after the announcement. Most of all, Bowe not being targeted or given a chance to make a play was just dumb. I just hope they replace him and Todd doesn't start calling plays. GO CHIEFS!

okikcfan
01-12-2011, 02:21 AM
You know it had to have caused alot of tension between Wies, the players and coaches. Coach has said here before that because of the play calling that something just wasn't right and I fully agree. What the main root of the problem is or was well, we may never know. Sometimes I saw flashes of (Martyball) at some of these games. I for one have lost alot of respect for Wies for the way this was all handled but again as we are seeing now it seems to be within the norm. The Chiefs want Character people so thats pretty automatic McD will not be invited. just sayin....

Hayvern
01-12-2011, 03:52 AM
Something was not right this season that is for sure, and Weiss really screwed up with his announcement. I really believe what he did was intentional.

Daylights
01-12-2011, 03:59 AM
Some of you might not agree with me, but I think Charlie Weiss has held the offense back this year. Playcalling this year has not been great. We never ran any reverses, flea flickers, end around or anything creative (well once or twice but...).

Then he goes and pulls this crap of telling everyone he is leaving to go to Florida 2 weeks before the end of the season. Look how the whole offense collapsed after that. Cassel, 4 Ints in 2 games. He was fine for most of the year, but after the announcement he seemed to take a step back.

In the Ravens game, same thing. With a 3 point behind score at half time, the Chiefs came out and their very first formation was 5 wide. Bowe was not even targeted at all. They seemed desperate and forced turnovers. Now not all the blame should go on the coaches, but I think its a HUGE factor.

What is your take on this whole Weiss ordeal?

I do think his playcalling was very predictable. On the flip side, I think he purposely kept the gameplans simple to make up for Cassel's inherent flaws. The theme of a pro-style offensive attack (what Weis uses) is designed for a mediocre QB with limited ability, i.e. Cassel. It deliberately keeps a QB's potential mistakes in check, hence why Cassel had so few INTs.

Until we get an Aaron Rodgers - type QB that can improvise, I think an ordinary offense would be the best thing for us. We saw what happened the last two weeks when Cassel was taken outside of the comfort zone and forced to make plays, couldn't do it.

brish
01-12-2011, 04:43 AM
I have to disagree Daylights..

I don't think we can say that Cassel can't be that kind of quarterback.. Not yet..
Im afraid it has more to do with the fact that Oakland came up with the blueprint to stymie our offense, and everyone else copied that.

Roll coverage to Bowe and attack at the line of scrimage.

Cassel is still a developing QB, his starter experience is somewhat limited, and his experience with his offensive coordinators even more limited, because they keep changing them!!

I definately think that we should have been able to get more out of the passing game when we needed to, and I had thought Dexter would have been a bigger factor..
He was tearing it up in the offseason, but never really became a weapon in the passing game.

Coach
01-12-2011, 09:31 AM
with the fact that Oakland came up with the blueprint to stymie our offense, and everyone else copied that.

Roll coverage to Bowe and attack at the line of scrimage.

I think you are giving Oakland WAY too much credit here. There was no blueprint to beating this offense IMO. Certainly not that one. We had the #1 rushing attack in football. If the Ravens were swarming Bowe and not bringing the 8th man up into the box, then we should have made them pay by giving them a steady dose of running plays. We were moving the ball just fine in the first half on the ground. Had Jamaal not fumbled in Baltimore territory at the end of the first half, we could have been up at the half.

Instead Charlie Weiss outthought the situation like he did all year. im guessing that he's assuming they will be trying to stop the one thing that worked in the first half(running), so he comes out 5 wide and never looks back. His lack of running the ball in the 2nd half contributed to the loss. But it was not the reason. 5 turnovers were the reason.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 10:31 AM
I think you are giving Oakland WAY too much credit here. There was no blueprint to beating this offense IMO. Certainly not that one. We had the #1 rushing attack in football. If the Ravens were swarming Bowe and not bringing the 8th man up into the box, then we should have made them pay by giving them a steady dose of running plays. We were moving the ball just fine in the first half on the ground. Had Jamaal not fumbled in Baltimore territory at the end of the first half, we could have been up at the half.

Instead Charlie Weiss outthought the situation like he did all year. im guessing that he's assuming they will be trying to stop the one thing that worked in the first half(running), so he comes out 5 wide and never looks back. His lack of running the ball in the 2nd half contributed to the loss. But it was not the reason. 5 turnovers were the reason.

Um, Weis was stripped of his playcalling duties at halftime. That's the reason Charles didn't get his runs.

Weis did a good job this season. He helped make Bowe, Charles, Cassel, and the OL look like superstars for most of the season.

Our biggest offensive weakest line is our 2WR spot. We do not have a NFL-worthy WR across from Dwayne Bowe. We need one, and badly, if we want to win a playoff game against a great defense like the Ravens.

Coach
01-12-2011, 10:36 AM
Um, Weis was stripped of his playcalling duties at halftime. That's the reason Charles didn't get his runs.


Um, no he wasn't. Keep up with the news. I agree the lack of a WR2 was the biggest weakness though.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 11:34 AM
Um, no he wasn't. Keep up with the news. I agree the lack of a WR2 was the biggest weakness though.

Um, just because the Chiefs are now denying it doesn't make it untrue. Don't believe every press release you read. They're covering their butts because it was a disasterous move.

Ryfo18
01-12-2011, 11:37 AM
Um, just because the Chiefs are now denying it doesn't make it untrue. Don't believe every press release you read. They're covering their butts because it was a disasterous move.

The "original source" of this information, Bob Fescoe, has said that he's not sure his source is reliable either...Who knows. For now, it doesn't seem like this really did happen.

Chiefs Source On Fescoe Report: Outright Lies | Arrowhead Addict | A Kansas City Chiefs blog (http://arrowheadaddict.com/2011/01/11/chiefs-source-on-fescoe-report-outright-lies/)

Hayvern
01-12-2011, 11:51 AM
The "original source" of this information, Bob Fescoe, has said that he's not sure his source is reliable either...Who knows. For now, it doesn't seem like this really did happen.

Chiefs Source On Fescoe Report: Outright Lies | Arrowhead Addict | A Kansas City Chiefs blog (http://arrowheadaddict.com/2011/01/11/chiefs-source-on-fescoe-report-outright-lies/)

Its all spin, the Chiefs are going to spin it how they want it spun, even if play calling was removed, they will never admit it and Weiss will certainly be more careful about saying anything about it again.

I said before that I don't know if it is true or not, it probably is not true, but Weiss still has plenty of things to answer for this season.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 11:52 AM
The "original source" of this information, Bob Fescoe, has said that he's not sure his source is reliable either...Who knows. For now, it doesn't seem like this really did happen.

Chiefs Source On Fescoe Report: Outright Lies | Arrowhead Addict | A Kansas City Chiefs blog (http://arrowheadaddict.com/2011/01/11/chiefs-source-on-fescoe-report-outright-lies/)

I know Fescoe's report wasn't based on overly reliable witnesses (people who saw Weis complaining at a pizza parlor). But you've got to admit that there was a radical difference in the playcalling in the 2nd half, and it was certainly more Haley-like than Weis-like (especially ignoring Charles).

Ryfo18
01-12-2011, 11:53 AM
I know Fescoe's report wasn't based on overly reliable witnesses (people who saw Weis complaining at a pizza parlor). But you've got to admit that there was a radical difference in the playcalling in the 2nd half, and it was certainly more Haley-like than Weis-like (especially ignoring Charles).

I will admit that.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 11:56 AM
Its all spin, the Chiefs are going to spin it how they want it spun, even if play calling was removed, they will never admit it and Weiss will certainly be more careful about saying anything about it again.

I said before that I don't know if it is true or not, it probably is not true, but Weiss still has plenty of things to answer for this season.

You know, Weis did do really well this season. Bowe, Charles, and Waters are Pro Bowlers. Cassel posted his best season. We finished 1st in rushing, 12th overall in yards overall, and 14th in points. We finished 2nd in turnovers.

It seems like sour grapes at their worst that people are pretending Weis somehow did a below average job this season.

Coach
01-12-2011, 12:00 PM
My issue this year was not the playbook, but the timing of the plays that were called.

Hayvern
01-12-2011, 12:05 PM
You know, Weis did do really well this season. Bowe, Charles, and Waters are Pro Bowlers. Cassel posted his best season. We finished 1st in rushing, 12th overall in yards overall, and 14th in points. We finished 2nd in turnovers.

It seems like sour grapes at their worst that people are pretending Weis somehow did a below average job this season.

My reference is more about the way he left the team at the end.

4everchiefsfan25
01-12-2011, 12:10 PM
You know, Weis did do really well this season. Bowe, Charles, and Waters are Pro Bowlers. Cassel posted his best season. We finished 1st in rushing, 12th overall in yards overall, and 14th in points. We finished 2nd in turnovers.

It seems like sour grapes at their worst that people are pretending Weis somehow did a below average job this season.
I don't think that Weis did a below average job but I also dont think Weis did an above average job either. I mean last year Charles started half the season we still had Johnson who wasnt doing crap. Last year was Cassel's first year as a starter. Bowe didn't go to Fitzgeralds camp last year. We didn't have McCluster for mismatches against defenses. We didn't have Lilja who is atleast an upgrade from last year. Barry Richardson was better this year than last year. It also was Haley's first year. IMO it is just too hard to judge Weis on how great he did because last year we were just trying to get through the season, and this year we have found a lot of weapons and the players have bought in with Haley's philosophy, so I'm not sure if we can actually grade Weis on his performance for just one year.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 12:12 PM
My reference is more about the way he left the team at the end.

Weis wasn't the one who leaked the announcement. It would have been nice if it weren't leaked at all, but that was bound to happen. Weis clearly either wanted out or was forced out.

I mean, shouldn't the fact that two well-regarded OCs have been fired/left in the past two seasons be setting of warning bells?

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 12:13 PM
My issue this year was not the playbook, but the timing of the plays that were called.

Such as?

4everchiefsfan25
01-12-2011, 12:15 PM
Weis wasn't the one who leaked the announcement. It would have been nice if it weren't leaked at all, but that was bound to happen. Weis clearly either wanted out or was forced out.

I mean, shouldn't the fact that two well-regarded OCs have been fired/left in the past two seasons be setting of warning bells?
I don't think you should beable to put Gailey in there. I mean Gailey was all about the Pistol offense, which is a college offense. I think Haley did right by getting rid of Gailey.

Ryfo18
01-12-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't think you should beable to put Gailey in there. I mean Gailey was all about the Pistol offense, which is a college offense. I think Haley did right by getting rid of Gailey.

That's not true. That was the offense he designed around Tyler Thigpen. We did not run that in the preseason games when he was here, nor does he run that at Buffalo.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 12:19 PM
I don't think that Weis did a below average job but I also dont think Weis did an above average job either. I mean last year Charles started half the season we still had Johnson who wasnt doing crap. Last year was Cassel's first year as a starter. Bowe didn't go to Fitzgeralds camp last year. We didn't have McCluster for mismatches against defenses. We didn't have Lilja who is atleast an upgrade from last year. Barry Richardson was better this year than last year. It also was Haley's first year. IMO it is just too hard to judge Weis on how great he did because last year we were just trying to get through the season, and this year we have found a lot of weapons and the players have bought in with Haley's philosophy, so I'm not sure if we can actually grade Weis on his performance for just one year.

Cassel started 15 games with the Pats in 2008. The decision to play LJ over Charles was the decision of the OC (Haley). McCluster did next to nothing outside of the Chargers game. Lilja and Richardson looked good because of the playcalling, not because they suddenly became bigger and more skilled, and both were exposed against top-5 defenses. And Bowe was finally used as the TO-type possession receiver his is instead of the Wayne/Moss receiver he was forced to be in previous seasons.

Look, I know there's a tendency to pretend that every person who leaves the Chiefs sucked and always sucked, but we can clearly see the improvements Weis (and Crennel, for that matter) made on the offense and defense. We need a similarly strong OC in 2011 and keep Haley away from the play-calling responsibilities.

4everchiefsfan25
01-12-2011, 12:20 PM
That's not true. That was the offense he designed around Tyler Thigpen. We did not run that in the preseason games when he was here, nor does he run that at Buffalo.
Thats true but do you really think the Chiefs have the players to run the spread like Buffalo? If we still had Gailey then we would have no need for Charles because he would just be ignored in the offense.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 12:23 PM
I don't think you should beable to put Gailey in there. I mean Gailey was all about the Pistol offense, which is a college offense. I think Haley did right by getting rid of Gailey.

It was a coup when the Chiefs got Gailey (under Edwards). He was a great OC for the Steelers, and an underrated HC for the Cowboys. And he did terrific given the "talent" he was asked to work with in 2008, only turning to the pistol when he was left with Tyler Thigpen as his QB.

Now, I wouldn't want him as my HC (like Norv Turner, he's far too nice of a guy) but he's great when he sticks to his wheelhouse.

Ryfo18
01-12-2011, 12:24 PM
Thats true but do you really think the Chiefs have the players to run the spread like Buffalo? If we still had Gailey then we would have no need for Charles because he would just be ignored in the offense.

I think Gailey more tailors his offenses to the strengths of the offense. Look at his tenure in Pittsburgh and Miami, both had solid offenses.

Here's a great article about Gailey and how much he gets out of his players: Fantasy Football - Footballguys Fantasy Football - The Chan Gailey Effect (http://www.footballguys.com/10tefertiller_gailey.php)

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 12:27 PM
Thats true but do you really think the Chiefs have the players to run the spread like Buffalo? If we still had Gailey then we would have no need for Charles because he would just be ignored in the offense.

Huh? Buffalo didn't run the spread this season. And Gailey managed to make the likes of Fred Jackson a near 1000-yard rusher. I think he'd have done terrific with Charles this year (indeed, look at Charles's rookie numbers when Gailey was OC - 629 yards from scrimmage - not bad for a rookie).

honda522
01-12-2011, 12:32 PM
Um, Weis was stripped of his playcalling duties at halftime. That's the reason Charles didn't get his runs.

Weis did a good job this season. He helped make Bowe, Charles, Cassel, and the OL look like superstars for most of the season.

Our biggest offensive weakest line is our 2WR spot. We do not have a NFL-worthy WR across from Dwayne Bowe. We need one, and badly, if we want to win a playoff game against a great defense like the Ravens.

That was a rumor.

honda522
01-12-2011, 12:36 PM
Such as?

Well lets see here. We will go back to the playoff game. 4th and 1. Instead of calling a QB sneak or an I-formation, a toss sweep was called. A ridiculous call on 4th and 1.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 12:41 PM
Well lets see here. We will go back to the playoff game. 4th and 1. Instead of calling a QB sneak or an I-formation, a toss sweep was called. A ridiculous call on 4th and 1.

I believe the rumor about Weis being replaced at halftime. You obviously don't. That probably colors both of our perceptions.

And even if you are correct, you're talking about one game out of seventeen. It would be like someone saying Cassel and Bowe must suck because of their stat lines in the Ravens game.

honda522
01-12-2011, 01:19 PM
If it was true, it would have came out by now. Why are you trying to defend someone who gave up?

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 01:30 PM
If it was true, it would have came out by now.

Why on earth do you think that? If anything, the fact that our HC blew the game would be locked down tight.


Why are you trying to defend someone who gave up?

Because his offense gave previously only decent players great seasons? Because our offense vastly improved in every facet? Because we might revert to 2009 offense if Haley calls the plays next season? Because we've lost two great OCs in two years?

Why do you think?

honda522
01-12-2011, 01:39 PM
Why on earth do you think that? If anything, the fact that our HC blew the game would be locked down tight.



Because his offense gave previously only decent players great seasons? Because our offense vastly improved in every facet? Because we might revert to 2009 offense if Haley calls the plays next season? Because we've lost two great OCs in two years?

Why do you think?

Weiss would have said something, he doesn't care about the team anymore. Haley can''t take the blame for this one.

Every time you post here I get dumber. Thats right, dumber. All you ever do is come here and slam everyone who might have sneezed to loudly. Guess what, the facts are there. Look how terribly the team reacted after Weiss said he was leaving, he didn't care, and won't. The fact you fail to see everything lost after Weiss announced he was going to move on just makes me think either your ignorant or a rebel and can't agree with anything anyone else says.

That fact is when people say they are going to quit, their effort and productive goes down. Do you think Weiss wanted to be in the post-season this year? He just wanted it end. Any person who works at any job will tell you that once they give their 2 week notice that they piss time away just to get the hell out of there.

Ryfo18
01-12-2011, 01:43 PM
Weiss would have said something, he doesn't care about the team anymore. Haley can''t take the blame for this one.

Every time you post here I get dumber. Thats right, dumber. All you ever do is come here and slam everyone who might have sneezed to loudly. Guess what, the facts are there. Look how terribly the team reacted after Weiss said he was leaving, he didn't care, and won't. The fact you fail to see everything lost after Weiss announced he was going to move on just makes me think either your ignorant or a rebel and can't agree with anything anyone else says.

That fact is when people say they are going to quit, their effort and productive goes down. Do you think Weiss wanted to be in the post-season this year? He just wanted it end. Any person who works at any job will tell you that once they give their 2 week notice that they piss time away just to get the hell out of there.

For the record, I don't agree with any of this, and you're passing your opinions off as facts.

I can't complain about Weis's playcalling this year. He gave us the best rushing offense in the league and transformed Cassel into a guy that all the sudden went 27TDs/7INTs in the regular season.

In 2004, Weis was hired as the Notre Dame head coach on December 13th. The Patriots still went on to win the Super Bowl. No quitting there...

4everchiefsfan25
01-12-2011, 01:47 PM
Cassel started 15 games with the Pats in 2008. The decision to play LJ over Charles was the decision of the OC (Haley). McCluster did next to nothing outside of the Chargers game. Lilja and Richardson looked good because of the playcalling, not because they suddenly became bigger and more skilled, and both were exposed against top-5 defenses. And Bowe was finally used as the TO-type possession receiver his is instead of the Wayne/Moss receiver he was forced to be in previous seasons.

Look, I know there's a tendency to pretend that every person who leaves the Chiefs sucked and always sucked, but we can clearly see the improvements Weis (and Crennel, for that matter) made on the offense and defense. We need a similarly strong OC in 2011 and keep Haley away from the play-calling responsibilities.
Haley was the HC not the OC when it was decided that LJ was the starter. McCluster doesn't have to do anything in a game to get the respect for the defense. He has so much speed the DC had to game plan to take away from McCluster no matter if he did anything or not. If the DC wouldnt game plan for him then he would do what he did against the 49er's. He is a match up problem for defenses. I didnt say that Lilja and Richardson got bigger and more skilled but they had the same blocking scheme as they did last year. Richardson is getting better because he is still learning and understanding how the offense works. Bowe was used the same was as he was last year. Todd Haley got on his @$$ and made him go to Fitzgeralds camp to learn from the greatest WR in the NFL. Your crazy if you honestly think Weis helped develop Bowe, Thats Haley's doing he is the one that knows how to work with the WR's, Weis is only good at working with QB's. It just seems like your a Todd Haley hater and no matter what anybody says about Weis your not going to want to hear it. It is unfair to judge Weis after one year good or bad.

4everchiefsfan25
01-12-2011, 01:53 PM
For the record, I don't agree with any of this, and you're passing your opinions off as facts.

I can't complain about Weis's playcalling this year. He gave us the best rushing offense in the league and transformed Cassel into a guy that all the sudden went 27TDs/7INTs in the regular season.

In 2004, Weis was hired as the Notre Dame head coach on December 13th. The Patriots still went on to win the Super Bowl. No quitting there...
The difference with the Patriots of 2004 and the Chiefs of 2010 is that the Chiefs are a lot lot younger than the Patriots in 04, also they have one of the greatest QB's in NFL history. So I do think Weis not waiting to say something until after the season did kind of mess with our very young team. Not saying that was the whole reason why we lost but I believe it has a little bit to do with it. Why couldn't he wait for a week to say something? Even if he had to say something, then why didn't he say in his press conference the day after he said he was going, that yes he was leaving and ask just a few questions and then leave it at that because he doesnt want it to be a distraction. He didn't though he just made the story a huge thing because he has a huge ego and he wanted it to be about him.

SIC J
01-12-2011, 01:56 PM
Um, just because the Chiefs are now denying it doesn't make it untrue. Don't believe every press release you read. They're covering their butts because it was a disasterous move.

Couldn't that be said for the initial report in the first place?

Haha! I hate when people say this. You are doing the SAME thing.

Ryfo18
01-12-2011, 01:57 PM
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The difference with the Patriots of 2004 and the Chiefs of 2010 is that the Chiefs are a lot lot younger than the Patriots in 04, also they have one of the greatest QB's in NFL history. So I do think Weis not waiting to say something until after the season did kind of mess with our very young team. Not saying that was the whole reason why we lost but I believe it has a little bit to do with it. Why couldn't he wait for a week to say something? Even if he had to say something, then why didn't he say in his press conference the day after he said he was going, that yes he was leaving and ask just a few questions and then leave it at that because he doesnt want it to be a distraction. He didn't though he just made the story a huge thing because he has a huge ego and he wanted it to be about him.

Because he didn't make the announcment. The University of Floriday did. And the reason they did at the time they did is solely because of recruiting reasons. A recruit that is in between two schools is probably going to choose the one that he knows who the offensive coordinator will be. Imagine how much more likely a highly recruited QB would choose Florida knowing that Weis will be there to work with him.

4everchiefsfan25
01-12-2011, 02:04 PM
Because he didn't make the announcment. The University of Floriday did. And the reason they did at the time they did is solely because of recruiting reasons. A recruit that is in between two schools is probably going to choose the one that he knows who the offensive coordinator will be. Imagine how much more likely a highly recruited QB would choose Florida knowing that Weis will be there to work with him.
The #1 QB in the nation already committed to Florida before Weis accepted the job. Weis could of told Florida look im going to the playoffs and I dont want this to be a distraction for my team can we please wait until I'm out of the playoffs. Signing date for high school players is in Feb. so they would have had plenty of time to find out who the OC was for Florida and make their decision.

Ryfo18
01-12-2011, 02:10 PM
Florida Gators' recruiting faces obstacles, but Charlie Weis will soon be on board (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/gators/florida-gators-recruiting-faces-obstacles-but-charlie-weis-1178961.html)

And the story was leaked. It was well known UF was looking at Weis before either the Chiefs or Gators confirmed it.

4everchiefsfan25
01-12-2011, 02:15 PM
Florida Gators' recruiting faces obstacles, but Charlie Weis will soon be on board (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/gators/florida-gators-recruiting-faces-obstacles-but-charlie-weis-1178961.html)

And the story was leaked. It was well known UF was looking at Weis before either the Chiefs or Gators confirmed it.
Why couldn't Weis wait till after the season to even interview I mean Florida only lost 2 recruits because of the HC change. I mean kids want to go to Florida not just because of the coaching staff. It's because its FLORIDA GATORS. A lot of kids that age just want to go to the most popular college. How are kids really going to know the difference between a good coach and a great coach at 18?

Ryfo18
01-12-2011, 02:16 PM
Why couldn't Weis wait till after the season to even interview I mean Florida only lost 2 recruits because of the HC change. I mean kids want to go to Florida not just because of the coaching staff. It's because its FLORIDA GATORS. A lot of kids that age just want to go to the most popular college. How are kids really going to know the difference between a good coach and a great coach at 18?

They would have filled the position with someone else.

4everchiefsfan25
01-12-2011, 02:23 PM
They would have filled the position with someone else.
I honestly doubt they would pass up the opportunity for Charlie Weis

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 02:57 PM
Weiss would have said something, he doesn't care about the team anymore. Haley can''t take the blame for this one.

He cared enough to coach the playoff game instead of taking off. And he is a professional, you know, and isn't going to badmouth his previous coaching regime.


Every time you post here I get dumber. Thats right, dumber. All you ever do is come here and slam everyone who might have sneezed to loudly. Guess what, the facts are there. Look how terribly the team reacted after Weiss said he was leaving, he didn't care, and won't. The fact you fail to see everything lost after Weiss announced he was going to move on just makes me think either your ignorant or a rebel and can't agree with anything anyone else says.

First, it's Weis, not "Weiss." You look like you don't know what you're talking about when you consistently get it wrong like that.

Second, I didn't slam anyone, much less you.

Third, Weis and Haley weren't getting along. Was he supposed to fight out a contentious 2011 or take the lucrative Florida job? It wasn't going to wait around for him.


That fact is when people say they are going to quit, their effort and productive goes down. Do you think Weiss wanted to be in the post-season this year? He just wanted it end. Any person who works at any job will tell you that once they give their 2 week notice that they piss time away just to get the hell out of there.

*Your* effort and productivity may go down, but you're not a professional apparently.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 03:02 PM
Why couldn't Weis wait till after the season to even interview I mean Florida only lost 2 recruits because of the HC change. I mean kids want to go to Florida not just because of the coaching staff. It's because its FLORIDA GATORS. A lot of kids that age just want to go to the most popular college. How are kids really going to know the difference between a good coach and a great coach at 18?

This was clearly something that had been in the works for a bit. The first report was 12/31, and the story broke that he was hired 1/2. I imagine they targeted him beginning of December and everyone kept a lid on it until 12/31.

As someone said above, football jobs aren't open forever. Florida can't risk not having an OC for six weeks while trying to set up for 2011.

kckidd8870
01-12-2011, 03:08 PM
I agree with you 100%.He has no creativity.Run the ball or short little dump off passes.I say let Haley have control.At least he will have the balls to do something on offense.Open the play book alittle bit.I know we didn't have the best recievers but dam you have to give them a chance.Can't be so predictable.What ever we do it will be alot better than Charlie weis.New England could have won those championships without him.So all I have to say is lets retool are offense alittle bit.Get things we need in free agency and have a hell of a 2011 draft.Let Haley call the offensive playbook.Work hard in training camp again.We will get are self another AFC champion ship and hopefully a deeper run in the playoffs.Love the Chiefs.Great year and thanks for the hard work.I new we wouldnt go to deep into the playoffs.We were short in some areas.Lacking on a few key positions and Charlie Weis.lolI had more faith in are players than I did Charlie.Lets go get them next year.Faithful fan for 40 yrs.Talk to you all around draft time Chiefscrowd.com
It's been a fun ride.Hopefully we can do it again next year but only better.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 03:10 PM
Haley was the HC not the OC when it was decided that LJ was the starter.

Haley was both OC/HC in 2009.


McCluster doesn't have to do anything in a game to get the respect for the defense. He has so much speed the DC had to game plan to take away from McCluster no matter if he did anything or not. If the DC wouldnt game plan for him then he would do what he did against the 49er's. He is a match up problem for defenses.

His speed has to be taken into account, but everyone except SD and SF seemed to contain him fairly easily.


I didnt say that Lilja and Richardson got bigger and more skilled but they had the same blocking scheme as they did last year. Richardson is getting better because he is still learning and understanding how the offense works.

We had a new OL coach and a new OC. Our schemes were not the same, although the philosophy was.


Bowe was used the same was as he was last year. Todd Haley got on his @$$ and made him go to Fitzgeralds camp to learn from the greatest WR in the NFL. Your crazy if you honestly think Weis helped develop Bowe, Thats Haley's doing he is the one that knows how to work with the WR's, Weis is only good at working with QB's.

I didn't say Weis helped develop Bowe. I said he ran plays that worked to Bowe's strengths as opposed to the plays we ran in 2009.

And our improved QB play didn't hurt Bowe's production either. Cassel stopped getting his WRs killed over the middle like he did in 2009.


It just seems like your a Todd Haley hater and no matter what anybody says about Weis your not going to want to hear it. It is unfair to judge Weis after one year good or bad.

No, it isn't. When an offense goes from being near the bottom of the league to being near the top, the OC has done a good job no matter the other factors involved.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 03:16 PM
Couldn't that be said for the initial report in the first place?

Haha! I hate when people say this. You are doing the SAME thing.

True. We have conflicting reports. I believe the one I do because of the radical difference in the playcalling, and because Haley seems to hate giving Charles the ball.

kckidd8870
01-12-2011, 03:49 PM
Your telling me we don't have any wide recievers.I'll just say Kevin curtis and thats all I have to say.We need to still Fitzgerald from the Cardinals some how.Cassel is servicable but not that great of a QB.KC fans you will see that in time.For you people that say Matt had a great year or a pro bowl year.All I got to say is ,it wasnt even close to a pro bowl year and for Charlie don't even get me started on that none play -callin full.We did what we did,With the talent we had .Not much help from good old Charlie.Do some play calling like that at Florida and you won't be around for long.He is an washed up old fart.Get some young coaching talent in here that want's to go for the throat.GO CHIEFS

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 03:52 PM
Your telling me we don't have any wide recievers.I'll just say Kevin curtis and thats all I have to say.

And that's all I need to read.

4everchiefsfan25
01-12-2011, 04:43 PM
Haley was both OC/HC in 2009.

When LJ was the starter in preseason Gailey was still OC

His speed has to be taken into account, but everyone except SD and SF seemed to contain him fairly easily.

Ya they contained him pretty easily because he was sitting on the side lines not suited up because he had a high ankle sprain for i believe 5 weeks, and seemed to still be recovering from it the rest of the season.


We had a new OL coach and a new OC. Our schemes were not the same, although the philosophy was.

We zone blocked last year and we zone blocked this year same scheme.


I didn't say Weis helped develop Bowe. I said he ran plays that worked to Bowe's strengths as opposed to the plays we ran in 2009.

Bowe was still running the same routes that he was last year but he was catching more balls and not jacking around during practice, he actually came to work because Larry Fitzgerald showed him the ropes on how to be the best WR you can be in his WR camp.

And our improved QB play didn't hurt Bowe's production either. Cassel stopped getting his WRs killed over the middle like he did in 2009.

I do agree that Weis helped Cassel with foot work and trying to read the defense but I also credit Cassel for wanting to get better and working his @$$ off to get better. This is his second year to start on HIS OWN TEAM, and as time goes on he will get better IMO.

No, it isn't. When an offense goes from being near the bottom of the league to being near the top, the OC has done a good job no matter the other factors involved.

You cant just give all the credit to the OC because you have to put in consideration all the new players we had on offense the other players having another year to develop and get 1 year under their belts playing with each other. Our offense wasnt as good as it was JUST because Weis was the OC. thats my opinion

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 05:11 PM
When LJ was the starter in preseason Gailey was still OC.

Chan Gailey was fired after the third preseason game. Do you think that depth charts are set for the season at the end of the third preseason game?

No, Haley wanted LJ starting and LJ started. I'm sorry, but that isn't a matter of opinion.


Ya they contained him pretty easily because he was sitting on the side lines not suited up because he had a high ankle sprain for i believe 5 weeks, and seemed to still be recovering from it the rest of the season.

McCluster played in 11 games in the regular season and 1 playoff game this season. That's a good majority of the season.

And his being fragile doesn't help your argument.


We zone blocked last year and we zone blocked this year same scheme.

Wrong. Why the Kansas City Chiefs Will Beat the San Diego Chargers in Week 1 | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/453569-why-the-kansas-city-chiefs-will-beat-the-san-diego-chargers)

We implemented the zone blocking scheme in 2010.


Bowe was still running the same routes that he was last year but he was catching more balls and not jacking around during practice, he actually came to work because Larry Fitzgerald showed him the ropes on how to be the best WR you can be in his WR camp.

Nope. Fitz's camp certainly didn't hurt, especially as it relates to drops and route running, but the playcalling was the biggest difference.

You ever wonder why we had so many drops in 2009? In large part it's because Cassel kept throwing right into traffic. It's also why he had so many interceptions. Weis's offense focused on having Cassel throw to a spot ranther than the receivers themselves. He also emphasized safer routes where his receivers wouldn't get killed. It cut down on INTs and drops, and also general helped Bowe from being double covered all season.


I do agree that Weis helped Cassel with foot work and trying to read the defense but I also credit Cassel for wanting to get better and working his @$$ off to get better. This is his second year to start on HIS OWN TEAM, and as time goes on he will get better IMO.

I credit both Cassel and Bowe very much. They both worked their butts off. But just because they worked hard doesn't mean the OC didn't do anything. No matter how hard an OC works, it won't help if the players are lazy. And it doesn't matter how hard the players work if the OC is dumb. You need both and we had both.


You cant just give all the credit to the OC because you have to put in consideration all the new players we had on offense the other players having another year to develop and get 1 year under their belts playing with each other. Our offense wasnt as good as it was JUST because Weis was the OC.

When did I say it was JUST because Weis was the OC? It was a lot of things. As I stated before, a lot of our vets stepped up. Cassel stepped up. Bowe stepped up. Charles was terrific. Our line did well for most of the season. We gave 110% on effort, and Haley was a large part of that.

But the playcalling was a large part too. You can't pretend otherwise.

chief31
01-12-2011, 06:35 PM
Um, just because the Chiefs are now denying it doesn't make it untrue. Don't believe every press release you read. They're covering their butts because it was a disasterous move.

Really?

If you were to trust one report, over an opposing report, should it be the one from the individuals directly involved, or some guy at a pizza place?

Not that I completely disregard the notion that it happened. But I think it is an incredible reach to just accept that report and run with it.


Weiss would have said something, he doesn't care about the team anymore. Haley can''t take the blame for this one.

Every time you post here I get dumber. Thats right, dumber. All you ever do is come here and slam everyone who might have sneezed to loudly.

How loudly did Weis sneeze? He is defending Weis. How do you come up with the notion that he is slamming everybody?


Guess what, the facts are there. Look how terribly the team reacted after Weiss said he was leaving, he didn't care, and won't.

Nice "facts".

Or, should I say "opninion"?


The fact you fail to see everything lost after Weiss announced he was going to move on ...

This isn't fact either. This is speculation.




That fact is when people say they are going to quit, their effort and productive goes down. Do you think Weiss wanted to be in the post-season this year? He just wanted it end. Any person who works at any job will tell you that once they give their 2 week notice that they piss time away just to get the hell out of there.

I don't. I am not sure I would be able to if I wanted to. I do, however, admit that I may lose focus and interest in the long term success.

But I agree that a lot of people would/do quit, while still working.

Also, if you are of the opinion that Weis was a good OC because of the very obvious results (I am), then I don't know how you look at the past few games and don't suspect Weis did lose focus, based on the results.

matthewschiefs
01-12-2011, 06:38 PM
True. We have conflicting reports. I believe the one I do because of the radical difference in the playcalling, and because Haley seems to hate giving Charles the ball.

I don't think that's the case at all. Haley wanted to keep Charles fresh and lets face it Charles gets nicked up in games alot. Not any long term injuries but I don't no how many times this season we saw and had to hold our breath that Charles was down. He's just trying to make sure that he is there for games going forward.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 06:47 PM
Really?

If you were to trust one report, over an opposing report, should it be the one from the individuals directly involved, or some guy at a pizza place?

Not that I completely disregard the notion that it happened. But I think it is an incredible reach to just accept that report and run with it.

True. As I wrote, I believe it, not just because some guys supposedly overheard Weis, but because of the radical playcalling shift that took place. The first half was very Weis-like. The second very Haley-like. Cassel's playing dumb ("I only know that the QB-coach kept calling in the plays) doesn't exactly help the official story's case either.

I could be wrong. Even if I am and Weis was the play caller, it's ludicrous to say that he was anything but great for us this season.


Also, if you are of the opinion that Weis was a good OC because of the very obvious results (I am), then I don't know how you look at the past few games and don't suspect Weis did lose focus, based on the results.

Simply because Weis didn't decide to leave just in the past two weeks. This had to have been brewing since at least early December, maybe even earlier. There had to be overtures, interviews, salary negotiations, etc. Also, Weis has left before for college (in 2004) and there was obviously no loss of focus for the Pats that season.

We fell apart in the last two weeks because our undersized OL wore down, because we had the post-season wrapped up when we played in Week 17, and because we played real pass rushes when most of our previous opponents didn't have one.

I mean, I don't think the OL stopped blocking because they were depressed about Weis leaving, do you?

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 06:53 PM
I don't think that's the case at all. Haley wanted to keep Charles fresh and lets face it Charles gets nicked up in games alot. Not any long term injuries but I don't no how many times this season we saw and had to hold our breath that Charles was down. He's just trying to make sure that he is there for games going forward.

With all respect, look at 2009. The only reason Charles got on the field was because LJ was suspended. Hell, he still had Charles returning kicks most of the season, which he wouldn't do if he were overly concerned about his health.

Charles was used exactly right this season by Weis. No kick returns. Set up with a ton of Thomas Jones. Home-run threat who touches the ball 15-20 times a game.

matthewschiefs
01-12-2011, 07:00 PM
With all respect, look at 2009. The only reason Charles got on the field was because LJ was suspended. Hell, he still had Charles returning kicks most of the season, which he wouldn't do if he were overly concerned about his health.

Charles was used exactly right this season by Weis. No kick returns. Set up with a ton of Thomas Jones. Home-run threat who touches the ball 15-20 times a game.


Last year I said it and I will say it again. The reason Charles did not start out the year getting a lot of touches is Fumbles. Last year in the preseason Charles fumbled A LOT. Haley made him work out that problem before he trusted him to give him a lot of carries in games that Counted. I would have done the same thing. Charles has gotten better at it and hopefully will keep getting better at that. But there is a reason he was not given the ball a lot at the start of last year. I thought it was a good choice by Haley then and I still do. The LJ thing got Charles the ball more but I do think we would have seen more and more of Charles at the end of last season.

The only issue I have with how our RBS were used this year is that Jones basicly ran just up the middle. The few times that we gave him the ball where he had some space he looked better. I just thought we ran him up the middle to much but that did set up Charles nicely.

chief31
01-12-2011, 07:17 PM
True. As I wrote, I believe it, not just because some guys supposedly overheard Weis, but because of the radical playcalling shift that took place. The first half was very Weis-like. The second very Haley-like. Cassel's playing dumb ("I only know that the QB-coach kept calling in the plays) doesn't exactly help the official story's case either.

I could be wrong. Even if I am and Weis was the play caller, it's ludicrous to say that he was anything but great for us this season.



Simply because Weis didn't decide to leave just in the past two weeks. This had to have been brewing since at least early December, maybe even earlier. There had to be overtures, interviews, salary negotiations, etc. Also, Weis has left before for college (in 2004) and there was obviously no loss of focus for the Pats that season.

We fell apart in the last two weeks because our undersized OL wore down, because we had the post-season wrapped up when we played in Week 17, and because we played real pass rushes when most of our previous opponents didn't have one.

I mean, I don't think the OL stopped blocking because they were depressed about Weis leaving, do you?

I will continue to credit Weis with all plays called against The Ravens. Because there is no reason not to. That play-calling looked just like the play-calling from the previous week, to me.

But, it is extremely realistic to think that Weis' focus was off, due to the situation with his job.

That sort of thing happens to professionals all the time. So the notion that Weis is a professional, and that couldn't happen, is just silly.

Do you really believe that Weis spent none of the time he would have spent thinking about a playoff matchup, thinking about his future with Florida?

Of course it was a distraction.

And I can't agree that it was all o-line.

Those were the same guys all year long. All veterans, who have played full seasons before. If fatigue were the culprit, then conditioning was the problem. (Coaching)

And the elite pass-rush only works for the fourth ranked Raiders. It doesn't work for the 29th ranked Ravens.

And an OC should be able to recognize that, and make adjustments.

I find it impossible to discard the probability that Weis became distracted from his long term goals with The Chiefs and Matt Cassel.

But we definitely agree that Weiss did great job this season.

But you can't possibly say that he did a good job the past two games, can you?

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 07:18 PM
Last year I said it and I will say it again. The reason Charles did not start out the year getting a lot of touches is Fumbles. Last year in the preseason Charles fumbled A LOT. Haley made him work out that problem before he trusted him to give him a lot of carries in games that Counted. I would have done the same thing. Charles has gotten better at it and hopefully will keep getting better at that. But there is a reason he was not given the ball a lot at the start of last year. I thought it was a good choice by Haley then and I still do. The LJ thing got Charles the ball more but I do think we would have seen more and more of Charles at the end of last season.

The only issue I have with how our RBS were used this year is that Jones basicly ran just up the middle. The few times that we gave him the ball where he had some space he looked better. I just thought we ran him up the middle to much but that did set up Charles nicely.

In 2009, Charles only fumbled 1 time during pre-season and only fumbled 4 times during the regular season. He wasn't given the ball enough to fumble much more than that. I think if LJ had stayed out of trouble and stayed healthy, Haley'd be starting him over Charles today.

Likewise, I think Charles didn't get the ball in 2009 because Haley wants to run a big back up the middle if he can't throw the ball. It's just how he runs his offense.

brdempsey69
01-12-2011, 07:32 PM
And the elite pass-rush only works for the fourth ranked Raiders. It doesn't work for the 29th ranked Ravens.



Rankings didn't matter. When both teams got a sizable lead & knew the Chiefs had to pass, they were both able to get fierce pressure on Cassel. With a tougher schedule next year, they may be in that situation a lot more often & this is what concerns me about how they address the O-Line. Not to hijack this thread or anything.

bwilliams
01-12-2011, 07:39 PM
I will continue to credit Weis with all plays called against The Ravens. Because there is no reason not to. That play-calling looked just like the play-calling from the previous week, to me.

Fair enough. We'll never know beyond our best guesses.


But, it is extremely realistic to think that Weis' focus was off, due to the situation with his job.

Why? And even if his focus were off, how does that make the OL start to crumble. Unless Weis's playcalling was responsible for the OL looking good in the first place, and if that's the case, we're in trouble in 2011.


That sort of thing happens to professionals all the time. So the notion that Weis is a professional, and that couldn't happen, is just silly.

Not getting distracted and doing your job well is what *makes* someone "professional." :smile


Do you really believe that Weis spent none of the time he would have spent thinking about a playoff matchup, thinking about his future with Florida?

I do not think that Weis was thinking about the Florida job at all these past couple weeks. At least no more than he was all December.


Of course it was a distraction.

For the players maybe, but I think you think everyone's a lot more thin skinned than they actually are.


And I can't agree that it was all o-line.

I didn't say it was all o-line.


Those were the same guys all year long. All veterans, who have played full seasons before. If fatigue were the culprit, then conditioning was the problem. (Coaching)

And Wiegmann and Lilja have worn down before. And Waters is at the age where he starts wearing down. It's just the unfortunate effect of getting old and/or being undersized.


And the elite pass-rush only works for the fourth ranked Raiders. It doesn't work for the 29th ranked Ravens.

Iin terms of passing defense, the Ravens were 2nd in YPA. They were 4th in opponents' QB rating. They are an extremely good passing defensive unit, especially in the red zone. They didn't get a ton of sacks but they hurried the **** out of opposing QBs.


And an OC should be able to recognize that, and make adjustments.

I find it impossible to discard the probability that Weis became distracted from his long term goals with The Chiefs and Matt Cassel.

That's certainly your opinion. But it's a little ironic to chastise someone for not having evidence to back up an opinion, and then posting this.


But we definitely agree that Weiss did great job this season.

We're going to miss him very much, I think. We need a strong buffer between Haley and the playcalling.


But you can't possibly say that he did a good job the past two games, can you?


I think it's unfair to judge *anyone* (HC, DC, OC, QB, LS, etc.) on a week 17 game when the postseason berth is sown up.

As for the Ravens game, I think a lot of your opinion rests on who you think called the 2nd half plays. I think our team was outmanned and outgunned at almost every position, and that a 10-7 halftime score is a good one. But I don't think either of us want to go through this argument again.

chief31
01-12-2011, 08:38 PM
it is extremely realistic to think that Weis' focus was off, due to the situation with his job.

Why?

Why? For the exact same reason tht one would would be of the opinion that he ws a good OC this season.... The results.

If your O-line can't pass block, then what would a good OC do? Did Weis do that during the last two games?


And even if his focus were off, how does that make the OL start to crumble. Unless Weis's playcalling was responsible for the OL looking good in the first place, and if that's the case, we're in trouble in 2011.



In part, I do. And I think you do too.

Again, if your O-line can't pass protect, then what does a good OC do?

Just get the QB sacked anyway?



Not getting distracted and doing your job well is what *makes* someone "professional."

No. Getting paid to do something is what makes someone a professional.

What you are describing is what makes someone great at what they do.

Weis was far from great the past couple of weeks.

And dismissing The Raiders game is insane. He could have gotten Matt Cassel's career ended.

If you think that Weis was unaware that his offense would be unable to pass protect, then he sucks as an OC. He should know that.

And, if he did know, then he did a terrible job of calling an offense that would be best suited for that.

The problem is that you are attempting to exonerate Weis of the second half, based on a guy in a pizza joint.






Of course it was a distraction.


For the players maybe, but I think you think everyone's a lot more thin skinned than they actually are.

I do not think that Weis was thinking about the Florida job at all these past couple weeks. At least no more than he was all December.

Ok. Charlie Weis is more than human, but still managed to suck for a couple of weeks. It must have been by intent.

Look. I am with you, that Weis did a great job this season. But he is not superhuman.

Anticipation is an emotion that, when present, will have an impact on your thoughts, rather you are a professional, or great at your job, or not.

As far as the month of December, his offense scored 10 points, or less, in four of six games since the start of December.

That only happened in one game, of eleven, prior to that.

No matter who the team played against, if your offense scores less than eleven points in four of six games, you are not doing something right as an OC.


That's certainly your opinion. But it's a little ironic to chastise someone for not having evidence to back up an opinion, and then posting this.

The comparison of the offense from prior to the start of December, to since, is evidence.


And Wiegmann and Lilja have worn down before. And Waters is at the age where he starts wearing down. It's just the unfortunate effect of getting old and/or being undersized.

You should have mentioned that to Charlie before the game with The Ravens. because he clearly did not notice.:D


I think it's unfair to judge *anyone* (HC, DC, OC, QB, LS, etc.) on a week 17 game when the postseason berth is sown up.

Yeah. That would be distracting to one's ability to call an offense that protects your QB, wouldn't it?
:lol: