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Sn@keIze
09-21-2011, 04:23 AM
I saw this posted on a FB group. I want you all to read this. This sold me on why we should draft AL if we can:

The last time the Cheifs won a Super Bowl, they were QB'd by a first round draft choice (Len Dawson)

Last year, there were 12 teams in the playoffs. 10 of them had 1st round draft choices starting for them at QB

Last season, the Chiefs were 7-1 VS teams that did NOT have a 1st round draft choice starting at QB. They were 3-6 VS teams that did have a 1st round draft choice at QB. Of those 3 wins, one was against the rookie Sam Brad (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1247151876)ford, one was against the bust Alex Smith (http://www.facebook.com/DantheMan2011), and one was agianst Philip Rivers at home on Monday night in a downpour.

In their last 4 playoff games, the Chiefs have lost to Joe Flacco, Peyton Manning, Peyton Manning again, and John Elway. all first round draft choices.

In fact, in the ENTIRE playoff history of the team since the merger, the ONLY Playoff win the team has VS. a QB drafted in the first round was against the Raiders and Todd Marinovich.

Last season, the Green Bay Packers won the superbowl AFTER they lost their starting RB and starting TE to season ending injuries early in the season. They also lost signifigant players at other positions to injury and were near the top if not at the top of players missing games due to injury. They had 1st round draft pick, Aaron Rodgers at QB.

The Colts are all healthy except for Peyton Manning.....anyone seen the colts this year yet? The pretty much suck without him.

Since the Merger, there have been 19 QB's drafted 1st overall. Here they are in order:
1970 Terry Bradshaw
1971 Jim Plunkett
1975 Steve Bartkowski
1983 John Elway
1987 Vinny Testeverde
1989 Troy Aikman
1990 Jeff George (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000637057785)
1993 Drew Bledsoe
1998 Peyton Manning
1999 Tim Couch (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000170093973)
2001 Micael Vick
2002 David Carr
2003 Carson Palmer
2004 Eli Manning
2005 Alex Smith (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001406852487)
2007 JaMarcus Russel
2009 Matt Stafford
2010 Sam Bradford
2011 Cam Newton

Lot's of star power there....and these are just the guys who went no.1 overall.

Matt Cassel went 11-5 for New England in 2008. In the 11 games they won that year, these were the QB's they defeated:
Damon Huard.
Brett Favre with the Jets throwing 25 pics
J.T O'Sullivan starting for the 49ers.
Jay Cutler during the horrible season that got Mike Shanahan fired
Marc Bulger of the Rams on a bad Rams team.
Trent Edwards of the horrible Buffalo Bills TWICE!
Chad Pennington of the Dolphins...after 2 shoulder surgeries.
Seneca Wallace....starting for the Seahawks because Hasselbeck was injured weeks before.
JaMarcus Russel and the Raiders....and
Curt Warner....during a blizzard where Warner couldn't throw and the Cardinals couldn't run either.

If EVER there was a gravy train to a 67 Million Dollar contract, this was it....taking all those weapons on New England, and having to win 11 games VS that? The 1991 Dave Krieg Cheifs would have won all 11 of those EASY. By the way of their 5 Losses, one was to old Brett Favre, another to Peyton Manning, another to Ben Roethlisberger and another to Phillip Rivers.

Matt Cassel completes less than 60% of his passes. Matt Cassel was last in the NFL in yards per attempt. The Chiefs are limted because they CAN'T throw down field. The Chiefs were 1st in the NFL in rushing last year. They only scored 13 rushing TD's. The Colts were 29th in the NFL in rushing last year. They also only scored 29 rushing TD's. 11 of Matt Cassels 27 TD's were under 10 yards. This suggests that they either couldn't run it in, or they let Matt throw it in to prop up his numbers.

Since 1989 we have used Steve Pelluer, Steve Deberg, Dave Krieg, Joe Montana, Steve Bono, Elvis Grbac, Trent Green(who was good in Vermiels system for sure), Damon Huard, Brody Croyle, Tyler Thigpen and Matt Cassel as our starting QB's

...I could go on and on.....but crunch on these for a while and think about why it might not be a bad idea to want that no.1 pick.

doobs_05
09-21-2011, 06:02 AM
I don't want the chiefs to be so pathetic that they get the number 1 pick but if we fall to that spot this season we better take andrew luck

okikcfan
09-21-2011, 08:58 AM
Wow, very nice read and very interesting....

jmlamerson
09-21-2011, 12:02 PM
I saw this posted on a FB group. I want you all to read this.

Good read. I think you're a little hard on Cassel, who is a smart, efficient game manager, and whose fault this season really isn't. The season is all on the GM for failing to find (or even ditching) real depth and even some starters, and on the HC for not having this team ready to play. The players themselves, even the crappy ones, are clearly giving their all.

azchiefsfan
09-21-2011, 12:09 PM
Put any QB in their prime with this current team and we would still be 0-2. But I am going to quit explaining how Cassel is still, even with this sad sack team, one of the better QB's THIS YEAR. Well, I gotta go, I'm not going to jump on the band wagon and I am not going to get ran over by it either. Blame the QB, always the first actions of band wagoners when things aren't going well. Pathetic!

SIC J
09-21-2011, 12:10 PM
I would like someone to put just as much effort into the 1st round draft pick busts so we can compare the numbers. Just a thought.

SIC J
09-21-2011, 12:12 PM
Put any QB in their prime with this current team and we would still be 0-2. But I am going to quit explaining how Cassel is still, even with this sad sack team, one of the better QB's THIS YEAR. Well, I gotta go, I'm not going to jump on the band wagon and I am not going to get ran over by it either. Blame the QB, always the first actions of band wagoners when things aren't going well. Pathetic!

Even when he did well last year these people were complaining. They are simply just not fond of Cassel. So no matter what he does, until he wins the Chiefs a Super Bowl, they will continue to complain.

azchiefsfan
09-21-2011, 12:14 PM
I would like someone to put just as much effort into the 1st round draft pick busts so we can compare the numbers. Just a thought.

I did last week. There is a 66.67% bust ratio for QB's taken in the first round. I posted the names, years and teams. Sorry, but when someone like Vince Young is cut after failing to win 50% of his games in 3 years, he is a bust-despite the hype. But even if you were to add the VY type QB's in the nuetral and not as busts, it's still 60% complete failures.

azchiefsfan
09-21-2011, 12:18 PM
Pennington #18 2000-Bust
Vick #1 2001-Bust for Atlanta/Good after prison
Carr #1 2002-Bust
Harrington # 2002-Bust
Ramsey #32 2002-Bust
Palmer #1 2003-Bust(one good season)
Leftwich #7 2003-Bust
Boller #19 2003-Bust
Grossman #22 2003-Bust for Bears/Potential with DC
Manning #1 2004-Winner
Rivers #4 2004-Winner
Roethlisberger #11 2004-Winner
Lossman #22 2004-Bust
Smith #1 2005-Bust
Rodgers #24 2005-Winner
Campbell #25 2005-Bust
Young #3 2006-Bust
Leinhart #10 2006-Bust
Cutler #11 2006-Jury's still out
Russell #1 2007-Bust
Quinn #22 2007-Bust
Ryan #3 2008-Winner
Flacco #18 2008-Winner
Stafford #1 2009-Jury's still out
Sanchez #5 2009-Winner/Jury's still out
Freeman #17 2009-Winner/Jury's still out
Bradford #1 2010-Jury's still out
Tebow #25 2010-Bust

jmlamerson
09-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Pennington #18 2000-Bust
Vick #1 2001-Bust for Atlanta/Good after prison
Carr #1 2002-Bust
Harrington # 2002-Bust
Ramsey #32 2002-Bust
Palmer #1 2003-Bust(one good season)
Leftwich #7 2003-Bust
Boller #19 2003-Bust
Grossman #22 2003-Bust for Bears/Potential with DC
Manning #1 2004-Winner
Rivers #4 2004-Winner
Roethlisberger #11 2004-Winner
Lossman #22 2004-Bust
Smith #1 2005-Bust
Rodgers #24 2005-Winner
Campbell #25 2005-Bust
Young #3 2006-Bust
Leinhart #10 2006-Bust
Cutler #11 2006-Jury's still out
Russell #1 2007-Bust
Quinn #22 2007-Bust
Ryan #3 2008-Winner
Flacco #18 2008-Winner
Stafford #1 2009-Jury's still out
Sanchez #5 2009-Winner/Jury's still out
Freeman #17 2009-Winner/Jury's still out
Bradford #1 2010-Jury's still out
Tebow #25 2010-Bust

Again, your list sucks. For the reasons everyone pointed out to you before.

azchiefsfan
09-21-2011, 12:25 PM
Again, your list sucks. For the reasons everyone pointed out to you before.


Oh really? So going to the playoffs like Palmer makes them good, right? But yet you Cassel band wagoners don't give Cassel the same benefit of the doubt when he's putting up good numbers with a bad team. lamerson ideed.

azchiefsfan
09-21-2011, 12:26 PM
Also it was the three loudmouth Cassel haters not "everyone". So really, know nothing band wagoners really don't phase me.

jmlamerson
09-21-2011, 01:27 PM
Oh really? So going to the playoffs like Palmer makes them good, right? But yet you Cassel band wagoners don't give Cassel the same benefit of the doubt when he's putting up good numbers with a bad team. lamerson ideed.

Cassel hasn't remotely put up Palmer's numbers. And since when are we talking about Cassel (who I support, by the way)?

Pennington and Vick took the teams that drafted them to their conference championship. Grossman took his to the SB. We've already explained to you why you're wrong about most of the others.

AkChief49
09-21-2011, 01:30 PM
Answer me this. IF, and I say IF we have the choice for 1st pick......do/would any of you pass on Andrew Luck?

azchiefsfan
09-21-2011, 01:46 PM
Cassel hasn't remotely put up Palmer's numbers. And since when are we talking about Cassel (who I support, by the way)?

Pennington and Vick took the teams that drafted them to their conference championship. Grossman took his to the SB. We've already explained to you why you're wrong about most of the others.

Hmm, cut by the teams that drafted them. Yup that makes them allstars. Which makes what you 3 are saying a bunch of crap. Those guys had massive talent at pretty much every position and couldn't get to the top. Grossman is, as I said, still not a winner or a bust. Here we are with a young team with a lot of holes and our QB is performing pretty well with the lack of help and you 3 want to dump him and not allow the team to mature and grow and let Cassel become the player he can be. You 3 are whiners of the worst sort. You don't know what you're talking about and all you can think of is cut the only guy performing near a professional level. If the team did what you guys want, we'd get someone like Luck who would get beat to death because of the bad team around him and you would be screaming for a new QB again in 2 years. You three are know-nothings.

jmlamerson
09-21-2011, 02:10 PM
Hmm, cut by the teams that drafted them. Yup that makes them allstars. Which makes what you 3 are saying a bunch of crap. Those guys had massive talent at pretty much every position and couldn't get to the top. Grossman is, as I said, still not a winner or a bust. Here we are with a young team with a lot of holes and our QB is performing pretty well with the lack of help and you 3 want to dump him and not allow the team to mature and grow and let Cassel become the player he can be. You 3 are whiners of the worst sort. You don't know what you're talking about and all you can think of is cut the only guy performing near a professional level. If the team did what you guys want, we'd get someone like Luck who would get beat to death because of the bad team around him and you would be screaming for a new QB again in 2 years. You three are know-nothings.

Just because someone is cut by the team that drafted them after several years, that doesn't make them a bust. I understand your issue now - you don't know what words mean.

And again, why are you whining about Cassel? I like Cassel and think he can be a winner if he has a good team around him. I just don't think he's a QB who will ever take us to the super bowl. Luck could be. He has physical and mental talents that very few QBs ever have had.

SIC J
09-21-2011, 02:35 PM
Just because someone is cut by the team that drafted them after several years, that doesn't make them a bust. I understand your issue now - you don't know what words mean.

And again, why are you whining about Cassel? I like Cassel and think he can be a winner if he has a good team around him. I just don't think he's a QB who will ever take us to the super bowl. Luck could be. He has physical and mental talents that very few QBs ever have had.

Luck has never played a day in the NFL so that is pure speculation.

Jrudi
09-21-2011, 02:47 PM
Aside from the draft let's look at this:

2010 Playoff Teams:

AFC
Pittsburgh- Rothlesberger (SB Looser)
New England- Brady
Colts- Manning
Jets- Sanchez
Ravens- Flacco
Chiefs- Cassel

NFC
Bears- Cutler
Packers- Rogers (SB Winner)
Saints- Brees
Seahawks- Hasselbeck
Philly- Vick
Falcons- Ryan

exceptions/explanations:
Hasselbeck (a decent QB, was a "Franchise QB", is towards the end of his career, and their division was weak, first team ever to get into the playoffs with a loosing record)
Cutler (a team, like the chiefs that also benefited from a weak schedule, and a good defensive play, landing them a 1st round bye)
Sanchez (Can be considered a "Franchise QB" although there are arguments about how talented he is, he is viewed at the Jets Franchise QB)

Cassel is one of 2 (Cutler) that could be argued as a non-franchise QB's.

Lets look at a handful of recent Super Bowls:

Super Bowl XLV:
Packers- Rogers
Steelers- Rothlesberger

Super Bowl XLIV:
Saints- Brees
Colts- Manning

Super Bowl XLIII:
Steelers- Rothelsberger
Cardinals- Warner

Super Bowl XLII:
New York Giants- (Eli) Manning
New England Patriots- Brady

Super Bowl XLI:
Colts- Manning
Bears- Grossman

Super Bowl XL:
Steelers- Rothlesberger
Seahawks- Hasselbeck

Super Bowl XXXIX:
Patriots- Brady
Eagles- McNabb

There is only 1 QB in the last 7 years that has made the SB, and was not considered at the time as a Franchise QB (Grossman)

After looking at this and all of the successful teams around the league today... There is 1 common thing to take into consideration. 1- A Franchise QB, that can play to an elite level status (Not every single game with no flaws, but has the potential to be elite, and is not questioned to possibly bring in a replacement) (other factors play into getting there, but the QB is the one common denominator)

I'll be the first to defend Cassel. I think he CAN BE a great game manager, what made him a Pro-Bowl QB last year (minimizing turnovers, and managing the game clock) he has yet to show in two games this season. I think he has the potential to get the Chiefs to a Super Bowl (with the right talent around him, and the cards falling the right way, minimizing turnovers, and penalties) (Hell Jake Delhome and Rex Grossman have been to Super Bowls)

With that said... There are a number of ways to bring in a "Franchise QB" but the most likely to maintain that Franchise QB is through the draft. When Warner went to Arizona he was considered past his prime, and resurrected his career, this is very seldom that this happens. Brees went in Free agency to New Orleans and has done wonders, but again you don't see if every day. I'm not saying there aren't a high % of 1st round busts, because there are.

What I am saying is even with Cassel, as I hear all of this talk about Luck, he is being explained as the best QB Prospect coming out of College since JOHN ELWAY! Not the #1 prospect for this draft alone.....The #1 Prospect coming out in the last 15 YEARS! That's Better than what Peyton Manning was projected coming out!

I would love to see Cassel Succeed, but in the Words of Pioli and Haley "we want to bring competition to every position group we have, because competition breeds success." The one position group that the backup does not challenge the starter is the QB.

Chances like this don't come around often, If we get the opportunity to take a chance on him, I think we should. Let him and Cassel COMPETE, and if Luck is not ready to start in his first year, he can learn behind Cassel until he is ready. The price tags have changed, we honestly will have nothing to loose, and a ton to gain.

jmlamerson
09-21-2011, 02:48 PM
Luck has never played a day in the NFL so that is pure speculation.

Of course it is speculation. That is why I used the word "could." We are all guessing what will happen in the future based on past and present indicators. Cassel could suddenly become Tom Brady or suddenly become Ryan Leaf. Luck could be Peyton Manning or JaMarcus Russell. The question is what is *likely* to happen. And it is very, very likely that Luck will be a stud QB. It is very, very likely that Cassel will remain game but average.

You may hope things end up diferently, but they probably won't.

Hayvern
09-21-2011, 04:35 PM
I also have to throw in the offensive line to this equation.

People hammer on Cassel yet they seem to think the offensive line has nothing to do with this. In every game where there is a clear leader on the team, a strong talented player can be ruined by the lacking of the players around them.

In baseball for instance, a very talented pitcher who is backed by a piss poor team will have his confidence shaken and likely end up injured as he tries to overpower all the hitters to keep them from getting hits.

In football, a young quarterback that takes on the leadership role of the team is likely to have issues if that team around him sucks.

I saw someone mention that the jury was still out on Sam Bradford, I think the kid is incredible, his presence on the field instantly made St Louis a better team. His presence alone cannot win games though, as he needs to have other guys around him.

I am absolutely opposed to picking up Andrew Luck in the first round and throwing him to the wolves if it means that he is going to be flattened every play by 300 pound defensive lineman. It will make him worthless in a couple of years and we will still be talking about needing a quarterback.

jmlamerson
09-21-2011, 05:42 PM
I also have to throw in the offensive line to this equation.

People hammer on Cassel yet they seem to think the offensive line has nothing to do with this. In every game where there is a clear leader on the team, a strong talented player can be ruined by the lacking of the players around them.

In baseball for instance, a very talented pitcher who is backed by a piss poor team will have his confidence shaken and likely end up injured as he tries to overpower all the hitters to keep them from getting hits.

In football, a young quarterback that takes on the leadership role of the team is likely to have issues if that team around him sucks.

I saw someone mention that the jury was still out on Sam Bradford, I think the kid is incredible, his presence on the field instantly made St Louis a better team. His presence alone cannot win games though, as he needs to have other guys around him.

I am absolutely opposed to picking up Andrew Luck in the first round and throwing him to the wolves if it means that he is going to be flattened every play by 300 pound defensive lineman. It will make him worthless in a couple of years and we will still be talking about needing a quarterback.

If your front office is dumb enough to draft a franchise QB and not protect him, then your front office is too dumb for the team to ever be a contender.

OPLookn
09-21-2011, 06:41 PM
I also have to throw in the offensive line to this equation.

People hammer on Cassel yet they seem to think the offensive line has nothing to do with this. In every game where there is a clear leader on the team, a strong talented player can be ruined by the lacking of the players around them.

In baseball for instance, a very talented pitcher who is backed by a piss poor team will have his confidence shaken and likely end up injured as he tries to overpower all the hitters to keep them from getting hits.

In football, a young quarterback that takes on the leadership role of the team is likely to have issues if that team around him sucks.

I saw someone mention that the jury was still out on Sam Bradford, I think the kid is incredible, his presence on the field instantly made St Louis a better team. His presence alone cannot win games though, as he needs to have other guys around him.

I am absolutely opposed to picking up Andrew Luck in the first round and throwing him to the wolves if it means that he is going to be flattened every play by 300 pound defensive lineman. It will make him worthless in a couple of years and we will still be talking about needing a quarterback.

I'm absolutely opposed to NOT picking Luck if we can get him. Sit him on the bench and let him learn for a year or two. Quietly gather a few stud lineman and if Cassel is killing it we have a QB to trade away for a bazillion draft picks. If not, guess what we have a stud QB chomping at the bit to play. Either way it's a good problem to have and if Luck is there when we pick we'd be flat stupid to not take him.

2010chiefs
09-21-2011, 11:05 PM
When Cassel does have time in the pocket to throw he still SUCKS. Get him out of there and start Stanzi.

drstandley31
09-22-2011, 01:12 AM
I would take Luck in a second if we had the chance. But let's remember, with a good team around him, Cassel won 11 game in New England before we got him. That wasn't "luck". He needs help. But, I'd still take AD in a second. Hell, if for no other reason, Denver CAN'T get him!

Hayvern
09-22-2011, 01:22 AM
If your front office is dumb enough to draft a franchise QB and not protect him, then your front office is too dumb for the team to ever be a contender.

Well there you go, I guess our front office is just that dumb. Cassel was presented as a franchise QB if I am not mistaken.

jmlamerson
09-22-2011, 02:24 AM
Well there you go, I guess our front office is just that dumb. Cassel was presented as a franchise QB if I am not mistaken.

You noticed that too, huh? I am completely amazed at our lack of attention to our OT position. And letting Waters go was criminal. We could have a pretty amazing interior line of Waters/Asamoah/Albert, with Hudson off the bench. We would just need an average set of tackles to back them up. It's just our owner/GM being cheap.

okikcfan
09-22-2011, 02:52 AM
The question is who for sure is behind everything that is going on at Arrowhead? Is it Piolo? Is it Haley? Who cut the players we wanted to keep or should have kept, like waters. Inside the NFL claim Pioli and Haley have been bumping heads since last season. was it Haley that ran weiss off after the very first year? Who has control of this football team? Thats the real question

okikcfan
09-22-2011, 02:58 AM
It was said that Mc D came to KC for the OC job but was not welcome by Haley so McD moved on.....

Chiefster
09-22-2011, 07:09 AM
It was said that Mc D came to KC for the OC job but was not welcome by Haley so McD moved on.....

Sounds about right; Haley hasn't gotten along with any decent OC since he's been here which has, really, been my only knock on him to this point. The fact that he was ticked off at him for the shellacking he laid on us in the last game had everything to do with it I'm sure.

DMN
09-22-2011, 01:43 PM
Kiper Jr. just said on sportscenter that KC would be the best fit for Luck. McShay said the dolphins....

Hayvern
09-22-2011, 04:50 PM
Sounds about right; Haley hasn't gotten along with any decent OC since he's been here which has, really, been my only knock on him to this point. The fact that he was ticked off at him for the shellacking he laid on us in the last game had everything to do with it I'm sure.

I am sure this is a product of Haley wanting the offense run his way. Being a former Offensive Coordinator himself, I am sure he has an idea of the kind of offense he wants to run and is looking for an OC to run that exact system.

The problem is that nobody else is Todd Haley, communication does not seem to be Haley's strong point and I am sure that an OC who comes in wants to win games and has his own ideas on how to do that.

Haley is not OC anymore, he is the head coach and he needs to fill that roll. If he is getting involved directly in the play calling and relieving the OC because he does not like the plays called, then he needs to step out, he is not a good enough coach to be both HC and OC. I don't think he is good enough at the moment to even be HC.

Sn@keIze
09-23-2011, 04:27 AM
Kiper Jr. just said on sportscenter that KC would be the best fit for Luck. McShay said the dolphins....
There was a time i was hard on Cassel.

It's time we move on from Cassell - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14723)

There was a time when I thought Cassel proved himself.

A Cassell Hating thread!!!!! - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16145)

One thing hasn't changed since the day he was hired. I FN HATE TODD HALEY.
Head on a stick - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11687)

And now I find that he may be the culprit in Weiss leaving (whos system made Cassel be successful). Anyway he has no business being a HC. He is offensive minded only.

Now getting back to the thread subject a lil. Drafting 1st round QBs just isn't the Chiefs way, so we need a breath of fresh air and to try something like that IMO [if we can].

OPLookn
09-24-2011, 02:30 PM
Now getting back to the thread subject a lil. Drafting 1st round QBs just isn't the Chiefs way, so we need a breath of fresh air and to try something like that IMO [if we can].

Then again while everyone wanted Berry safeties weren't supposed to be drafted that high. I have a feeling we'll draft what we need and if Pioli and company think it's Luck then it'll be Luck. Honestly though unless we trade up to get him we won't be there. We'll have a few other teams that have worse records than us...or here's to hoping.