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figcrostic
10-02-2011, 10:19 PM
Cassel and the defense won that game for us, Steve Breaston was great pick up, our line still sucks, and we aren't hopeless.

jmlamerson
10-02-2011, 10:35 PM
Cassel and the defense won that game for us, Steve Breaston was great pick up, our line still sucks, and we aren't hopeless.

Cassel showed today why he's was a good pickup. He is going to win the battle of wills with Haley and his abysmal playcalling. And we're better off for it.

Chiefster
10-03-2011, 03:04 AM
Cassel showed today why he's was a good pickup. He is going to win the battle of wills with Haley and his abysmal playcalling. And we're better off for it.

I wish I could have been a fly buzzing around that particular conversation.

azchiefsfan
10-03-2011, 05:10 AM
Says the guy who all week was calling for us to get rid of Cassel and will be calling for us to get rid of Cassel after our next loss. PREDICTABLE! It's called fair weather fan and also, bandwagoner. When you respond, please know, I won't see it.:lol:

jmlamerson
10-03-2011, 10:37 AM
Says the guy who all week was calling for us to get rid of Cassel and will be calling for us to get rid of Cassel after our next loss. PREDICTABLE! It's called fair weather fan and also, bandwagoner. When you respond, please know, I won't see it.

Guy, you shouldn't lie on a message board. My posts are available out there for anyone to see. I never called for us to "get rid of Cassel" or "to get rid of Cassel after our next loss."

Post a quote of mine, or get the **** out.

Ryfo18
10-03-2011, 12:31 PM
Says the guy who all week was calling for us to get rid of Cassel and will be calling for us to get rid of Cassel after our next loss. PREDICTABLE! It's called fair weather fan and also, bandwagoner. When you respond, please know, I won't see it.:lol:

A bandwagoner is someone who jumps on board only when the team is doing well. Just because someone thinks something negative about someone or something on the team, does not make them a bandwagoner.

On the other hand, there are also many homers on this board, those that are ignorant to the fact that the team is nowhere as good as you think they are, and that every player is awesome.

Whether you can be negative about your team or not make no difference, in the end we are all Chiefs' fans.

azchiefsfan
10-03-2011, 01:22 PM
I kinda think you are confusing two different things. I was not, per the OP, speaking of the Chiefs, but rather speaking of player "bandwagoners". Which, by the way, is demonstrated here. First it was "Cassel can't do anything. He sucks. Anyone else could do better." Now it's "Cassel was a good pick up."

honda522
10-03-2011, 02:17 PM
How many times have I defended Cassel on this board?

Three7s
10-03-2011, 03:55 PM
He did better today, but it was against an 0-4 team with one of the worst secondaries in the league. Let's see if he can keep it up.

kcvet
10-03-2011, 04:14 PM
im still not a Cassel fan but ill give him this. walking over there in front of the fans and TV audience and flaming Haleys' a*s took a lotta guts. Haley deserved it

but ill tell ya what. if Cassel ever wins us a playoff game he's got my vote.

Eydugstr
10-03-2011, 06:02 PM
He did better today, but it was against an 0-3 team with one of the worst secondaries in the league. Let's see if he can keep it up.

Corrected! NOW they're 0-4. :chiefs:

TopekaRoy
10-03-2011, 07:35 PM
How many times have I defended Cassel on this board?
7? (since game one, but I may have missed a couple.):smile

jmlamerson
10-03-2011, 11:54 PM
Cassel finally had a solid game this year! Future hall of famer! ahhhhh

People who see these things in blacks and whites are impossible to take seriously. Cassel has good games and bad ones. He's a decent QB who is smart and efficient enought to win games with the proper support, but he does not have the athleticism or accuracy to win games only on his arm. He isn't our savior, but neither is he our devil.

What's wrong with you people that he either gets blind support or blind hatred? There are average players in the NFL, you know. And there's no shame in being an average player in the NFL.

KCraised
10-04-2011, 12:24 AM
A bandwagoner is someone who jumps on board only when the team is doing well. Just because someone thinks something negative about someone or something on the team, does not make them a bandwagoner.

On the other hand, there are also many homers on this board, those that are ignorant to the fact that the team is nowhere as good as you think they are, and that every player is awesome.

Whether you can be negative about your team or not make no difference, in the end we are all Chiefs' fans.

My vote for post of the week....lol

KCraised
10-04-2011, 12:29 AM
People who see these things in blacks and whites are impossible to take seriously. Cassel has good games and bad ones. He's a decent QB who is smart and efficient enought to win games with the proper support, but he does not have the athleticism or accuracy to win games only on his arm. He isn't our savior, but neither is he our devil.

What's wrong with you people that he either gets blind support or blind hatred? There are average players in the NFL, you know. And there's no shame in being an average player in the NFL.

I think thats the thing....he is not terrible and he is not great. That says "decent". I got reamed for using that word. Same danged thing. No shame for being average? Average players get cut. Plus, he is your leader. Who wants an average leader? A savior sounds good to me;-D

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 12:35 AM
I think thats the thing....he is not terrible and he is not great. That says "decent". I got reamed for using that word. Same danged thing. No shame for being average? Average players get cut. Plus, he is your leader. Who wants an average leader? A savior sounds good to me;-D

Cassel is a good-to-great leader with average physical talent. Average players don't get cut. No team has good players at every position. Average QBs like Brad Johnson (who I think Cassel is the closest to in terms of talent) and Trent Dilfer won super bowls.

doobs_05
10-04-2011, 01:23 AM
Cassel is a good-to-great leader with average physical talent. Average players don't get cut. No team has good players at every position. Average QBs like Brad Johnson (who I think Cassel is the closest to in terms of talent) and Trent Dilfer won super bowls.

With the best defense at the the time

doobs_05
10-04-2011, 01:27 AM
My vote for post of the week....lol


I Agree

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 09:55 AM
With the best defense at the the time

With one of the top-5 defenses of all time. Which is a luxury the Chiefs will almost certainly never have.

Still, if Cassel has Brad Johnson-style career, even minus the SB, he was well worth the 2nd rounder we paid for him.

KCraised
10-04-2011, 10:11 AM
Cassel is a good-to-great leader with average physical talent. Average players don't get cut. No team has good players at every position. Average QBs like Brad Johnson (who I think Cassel is the closest to in terms of talent) and Trent Dilfer won super bowls.
Yeah, Dilfer won with an amazing defense that year, right? But there are also alot of Rodgers/Manning/Brady/Elway/Favre/Brees types that get there alot more often than the 2 enigmas that you referenced. I'll play the percentages on this one.
Everyone always gets uptight and pissed off when you quote his salary. I quote it because they paid him elite money. He signed the contract saying im worth elite money....well, because i think im elite. When you sign that massive contract, you are in the crosshairs all the time. Its justified. You better produce only big numbers or else. He knows this. Thats the price you pay for getting paid like the best. The microscope is used at much higher magnification.
And average qbs get benched or cut.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 10:56 AM
Yeah, Dilfer won with an amazing defense that year, right? But there are also alot of Rodgers/Manning/Brady/Elway/Favre/Brees types that get there alot more often than the 2 enigmas that you referenced. I'll play the percentages on this one.
Everyone always gets uptight and pissed off when you quote his salary. I quote it because they paid him elite money. He signed the contract saying im worth elite money....well, because i think im elite. When you sign that massive contract, you are in the crosshairs all the time. Its justified. You better produce only big numbers or else. He knows this. Thats the price you pay for getting paid like the best. The microscope is used at much higher magnification.
And average qbs get benched or cut.

Guys like Cassel, Orton, Campbell, Fitzpatrick, Kolb, Grossman, Sanchez, McCoy, Romo, and Smith are current average QBs who have found a starting niche in the NFL. They will not be benched or cut.

And people who complain about the size of Cassel's contract are the worst kinds of people. I don't care how much money he makes. No one short of Clark Hunt should care how much money Cassel makes. How much money Cassel makes has absolutely no bearing on how the team does. You should, as a fan, only care how the team does.

OPLookn
10-04-2011, 11:45 AM
People who see these things in blacks and whites are impossible to take seriously. Cassel has good games and bad ones. He's a decent QB who is smart and efficient enought to win games with the proper support, but he does not have the athleticism or accuracy to win games only on his arm. He isn't our savior, but neither is he our devil.

What's wrong with you people that he either gets blind support or blind hatred? There are average players in the NFL, you know. And there's no shame in being an average player in the NFL.

How many "average" players get paid 11 mil a year? That's why I have a problem with Cassel as Chief and I have gone back and forth before. He's going to be 30, when his contract is up he'll be 32 and I'd be shocked if he's a Farve type that stays good into his late 30's. Paying him that type of money was a monster mistake but I get it and move on from that.

Unfortunately I didn't get to watch the game but he seemed to do ok against a team that's not 0-4. Sorry guys, getting engaged seemed like a much better idea. ;)

I really am curious though. Are the same people that defending Cassel being quiet about the O-line too after some have blasted them earlier? No I'm not pointing at anyone but I know there are those out there that defend Cassel but throw the O-line under the bus. Then when Cassel has a good game and leads them to a W they give Cassel all the credit and none to the O-Line.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 11:52 AM
How many "average" players get paid 11 mil a year? That's why I have a problem with Cassel as Chief and I have gone back and forth before. He's going to be 30, when his contract is up he'll be 32 and I'd be shocked if he's a Farve type that stays good into his late 30's. Paying him that type of money was a monster mistake but I get it and move on from that.

Unfortunately I didn't get to watch the game but he seemed to do ok against a team that's not 0-4. Sorry guys, getting engaged seemed like a much better idea. ;)

I really am curious though. Are the same people that defending Cassel being quiet about the O-line too after some have blasted them earlier? No I'm not pointing at anyone but I know there are those out there that defend Cassel but throw the O-line under the bus. Then when Cassel has a good game and leads them to a W they give Cassel all the credit and none to the O-Line.

Who gives a **** how much Cassel is paid? You're not paying it. We're so far under the cap that it doesn't affect the roster. Who cares?

Our OL sucks. Our DL sucks. We need better OTs and a real NT for the seventh year in a row. Every game we've won since 2009 has been in spite of our overall OL and DL (though I like some individual players), not because of them.

KCraised
10-04-2011, 12:05 PM
Guys like Cassel, Orton, Campbell, Fitzpatrick, Kolb, Grossman, Sanchez, McCoy, Romo, and Smith are current average QBs who have found a starting niche in the NFL. They will not be benched or cut.

And people who complain about the size of Cassel's contract are the worst kinds of people. I don't care how much money he makes. No one short of Clark Hunt should care how much money Cassel makes. How much money Cassel makes has absolutely no bearing on how the team does. You should, as a fan, only care how the team does.
Ouch, we are the worst kind of people, OPLookn. That's pretty harsh, i would say. Hopefully behind serial killers and pedophiles;-)
Well, ill put my list of qbs up against yours anyday

chief31
10-04-2011, 12:31 PM
People who see these things in blacks and whites are impossible to take seriously. Cassel has good games and bad ones. He's a decent QB who is smart and efficient enought to win games with the proper support, but he does not have the athleticism or accuracy to win games only on his arm. He isn't our savior, but neither is he our devil.

What's wrong with you people that he either gets blind support or blind hatred? There are average players in the NFL, you know. And there's no shame in being an average player in the NFL.

For me, that stance is just as black and white as any great/horrible stance.

"It is written in stone that this QB has this ability."

I have watched, over and over again, as QBs who are labelled as one ability, or another, proves everybody wrong.

Orton had no arm at all, couldn't even get the ball thirty yards downfield with a tow truck.

Rich Gannon was a career backup.

Ryan Leaf was the greatest player ever.

Drew Brees was too short to see downfield.

While so many try to label Cassel as not having the cannon of guys like Vick, or Rodgers, Brees doesn't have that rocket launcher either. He makes up for it with timing and a great knowledge of the game.

Cassel has shown a lot of that same type of ability, with the restriction of ultra-conservative play-calling, poor pass-protection, and a variety of other things supressing the passing game.

The only significant sample of Cassel working within a solid passing offense was in New England, in '08. Where he did pretty well for a guy who hadn't started since highschool.

So, basically, Cassel MIGHT never do this, or that. But he has shown an ability to do just about anything, depending upon the quality of the team (coaching included) around him.

I find it to be an awfully strong opinion to put any label on him, with the situations he has been in.

I find myself taking a defensive stand on the subject of Cassel, not because I am convinced of his greatness, but because I am absolutely not convinced of any label for him.

And those who are planting themselves firmly on a Cassel stance are almost entirely negative. (Present company excluded)

If there were any opinions of how Cassel is an MVP, I would find myself arguing against.

But the only people saying that Cassel is an MVP are the haters, and it is done with shere sarcasm.

I don't think he is great. I don't think he is terrible. And I don't think he is average.

But, to this point, with his situation considered, I think he has been above average.

KCraised
10-04-2011, 12:35 PM
Interesting statistic....if you take that list of qbs you listed off, they come out with a combined Win/Loss record this year of exactly 20-20. Youre right, thats about as average as you can get...lol

OPLookn
10-04-2011, 12:51 PM
Who gives a **** how much Cassel is paid? You're not paying it. We're so far under the cap that it doesn't affect the roster. Who cares?

Our OL sucks. Our DL sucks. We need better OTs and a real NT for the seventh year in a row. Every game we've won since 2009 has been in spite of our overall OL and DL (though I like some individual players), not because of them.

Well when you list off so many needs what would one need to go out and get that? Oh yeah...money!! We're under the cap but unless you can get those great players you always seem to be listing off or complaining about for far under 30 mil a year I personally give a **** about what Cassel is paid. Talk about short sighted.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 01:03 PM
For me, that stance is just as black and white as any great/horrible stance.

"It is written in stone that this QB has this ability."

I have watched, over and over again, as QBs who are labelled as one ability, or another, proves everybody wrong.

Orton had no arm at all, couldn't even get the ball thirty yards downfield with a tow truck.

Rich Gannon was a career backup.

Ryan Leaf was the greatest player ever.

Drew Brees was too short to see downfield.

While so many try to label Cassel as not having the cannon of guys like Vick, or Rodgers, Brees doesn't have that rocket launcher either. He makes up for it with timing and a great knowledge of the game.

Cassel has shown a lot of that same type of ability, with the restriction of ultra-conservative play-calling, poor pass-protection, and a variety of other things supressing the passing game.

The only significant sample of Cassel working within a solid passing offense was in New England, in '08. Where he did pretty well for a guy who hadn't started since highschool.

So, basically, Cassel MIGHT never do this, or that. But he has shown an ability to do just about anything, depending upon the quality of the team (coaching included) around him.

I find it to be an awfully strong opinion to put any label on him, with the situations he has been in.

I find myself taking a defensive stand on the subject of Cassel, not because I am convinced of his greatness, but because I am absolutely not convinced of any label for him.

And those who are planting themselves firmly on a Cassel stance are almost entirely negative. (Present company excluded)

If there were any opinions of how Cassel is an MVP, I would find myself arguing against.

But the only people saying that Cassel is an MVP are the haters, and it is done with shere sarcasm.

I don't think he is great. I don't think he is terrible. And I don't think he is average.

But, to this point, with his situation considered, I think he has been above average.

First, NE wasn't a "solid passing offense." It was one of the greatest passing offenses of all time.

Opinions of Cassel's ability should not be put on hold until he has a good-to-great supporting cast and coach. Very, very few QBs in the NFL will ever have those advantages. Hell, very few players will. If you want to wait until they retire to judge a player, that's your business. But most people want to discuss the team and its players now.

Orton does have below-average arm strength. Kind of like Weis/Cassel, McDaniels was able to work around that. Look at the statistical difference between Orton's last year and this one. He's clearly regressing.

My opinion of Cassel isn't based upon what he might do in the future. My opinion of Cassel is based around what he's already done. He's a career 83.0 QBR, 59% completion rate, 24-21 overall record, 0-1 playoff record, and 6.6 YPA. He might turn into Drew Brees, he might go the way of Ryan Leaf. Or he might stay at Brad Johnson-levels of averageness. The smart money is on the third.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 01:05 PM
Ouch, we are the worst kind of people, OPLookn. That's pretty harsh, i would say. Hopefully behind serial killers and pedophiles;-)
Well, ill put my list of qbs up against yours anyday

People who complain about sports contracts almost always turn out to be pedophiles and serial killers.

What list of QBs?

okikcfan
10-04-2011, 01:08 PM
We need to spend that 33 mil to get what we need but we never spend it and we never fully get what we need. We have our list of hopefuls and Well, they have there's. After watching the Colts game last night, I am worried about next weekend.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 01:10 PM
Well when you list off so many needs what would one need to go out and get that? Oh yeah...money!! We're under the cap but unless you can get those great players you always seem to be listing off or complaining about for far under 30 mil a year I personally give a **** about what Cassel is paid. Talk about short sighted.

We have plenty of money. Our owner is pinching pennies. We're $30M under the cap. If we were paying Cassel $1M a year, we'd be sitting at $40M under the cap. Hell, we cut guys who should have been Chiefs-lifers (like Waters) to save money.

If our owner wanted to field a better team with better players on the lines, he could have. Easily. But he didn't. Hell, we're paying out less than $70M in salaries (actual money, not cap) this year (Kansas-City-Chiefs Salaries | Kansas-City-Chiefs Player Salaries | 2011 Kansas-City-Chiefs Salary (http://www.sportscity.com/NFL/Kansas-City-Chiefs-Salaries)).

Neither Cassel nor any other Chief has anything to do with it.

C Louie
10-04-2011, 01:22 PM
A bandwagoner is someone who jumps on board only when the team is doing well. Just because someone thinks something negative about someone or something on the team, does not make them a bandwagoner.

On the other hand, there are also many homers on this board, those that are ignorant to the fact that the team is nowhere as good as you think they are, and that every player is awesome.

Whether you can be negative about your team or not make no difference, in the end we are all Chiefs' fans.
I agree 100%. :D

KCraised
10-04-2011, 01:23 PM
People who complain about sports contracts almost always turn out to be pedophiles and serial killers.

What list of QBs?

Man, my life is getting ready to take an ugly turn soon....guess thats what happens to the worst kind of people:-/
My list of qbs...brees, manning, etc? Meaning, in theory, you can grind it out with your average qbs all you want. I'm going to keep your list saved and we will see in week 16, what qbs lead thier respectuve teams to just the playoffs this year.

KCraised
10-04-2011, 01:28 PM
And btw, its just for fun. I'm on this site for a reason. Alot of debating subjects. Provokes some thought, if people keep an open mind. I like what the other side has to say. Otherwise, i would just leave;)

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 01:57 PM
Man, my life is getting ready to take an ugly turn soon....guess thats what happens to the worst kind of people:-/
My list of qbs...brees, manning, etc? Meaning, in theory, you can grind it out with your average qbs all you want. I'm going to keep your list saved and we will see in week 16, what qbs lead thier respectuve teams to just the playoffs this year.

Huh? I know guys like Brady and Rogers are better than average QBs. I know that teams are likely to do better with a great QB than an average QB. I know, and posted a dozen times, that Cassel is average. If I could swap him for Rogers or Brady I would.

I also know that having an average QB is something that about a third of NFL teams have to go through. By definition. We got Cassel for a 2nd rounder. We've gotten a good return on our investment. It doesn't mean we shouldn't upgrade if given the chance, but it doesn't mean that he's the cause of this team's problems either.

What, exactly, are you disagreeing with here?

KCraised
10-04-2011, 02:25 PM
Huh? I know guys like Brady and Rogers are better than average QBs. I know that teams are likely to do better with a great QB than an average QB. I know, and posted a dozen times, that Cassel is average. If I could swap him for Rogers or Brady I would.

I also know that having an average QB is something that about a third of NFL teams have to go through. By definition. We got Cassel for a 2nd rounder. We've gotten a good return on our investment. It doesn't mean we shouldn't upgrade if given the chance, but it doesn't mean that he's the cause of this team's problems either.

What, exactly, are you disagreeing with here?
Well, im saying im not content with an average qb. And, as much as we want playoff games, I want a Superbowl. I'm saying why grind it out with Cassel? You admit he is an average qb. I totally agree. Its has sounded like you're content with that. I'm not. But now you say if we have a chance to upgrade, we should do that. Alittle confused now but i will say I agree with your last reply 100%. We are officially completely on the same page with your last post.

TopekaRoy
10-04-2011, 02:38 PM
We need to spend that 33 mil to get what we need but we never spend it and we never fully get what we need.


We have plenty of money. Our owner is pinching pennies. We're $30M under the cap.
...

Hell, we're paying out less than $70M in salaries (actual money, not cap) this year (Kansas-City-Chiefs Salaries | Kansas-City-Chiefs Player Salaries | 2011 Kansas-City-Chiefs Salary (http://www.sportscity.com/NFL/Kansas-City-Chiefs-Salaries)).

That link is out of date. Click on it and see how mauch Hali and Flowers are making. You may have trouble finding them because they aren't even listed! According to Kansas City Chiefs 2011 Team Management | Tradition Sports Online (http://forums.traditionsportsonline.com/threads/kansas-city-chiefs-2011-team-management.62356/) The Chiefs total salary is $107,390,000 and the Cap space is $12,610,000. I posted that info a week ago, but you two obviously didn't bother to read it because you are still quoting inaccurate figures.

You can look it up here: (click on the little blue box with the arrow in it next to my name.)

I've been hearing that the Chiefs have between 30 and 35 million in cap space since the preseason started. That was before we signed Tamba Hali for $12 million per year and before we signed Brandon Flowers to $10 million per year....

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 02:50 PM
Well, im saying im not content with an average qb. And, as much as we want playoff games, I want a Superbowl. I'm saying why grind it out with Cassel? You admit he is an average qb. I totally agree. Its has sounded like you're content with that. I'm not. But now you say if we have a chance to upgrade, we should do that. Alittle confused now but i will say I agree with your last reply 100%. We are officially completely on the same page with your last post.

I would love to upgrade Cassel - if possible. All of the teams I referenced earlier with average QBs would love to upgrade their QB situation. The problem is that it's really, really hard to find a superstar QB. Cassel is a perfectly fine stand-in until we do.

If we pass on a superstar QB to retain Cassel, the problem is with the GM, not with Cassel. Who has done about as well as a reasonable person could have expected given the tools (both coaching and otherwise) he's been working with.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 02:53 PM
That link is out of date. Click on it and see how mauch Hali and Flowers are making. You may have trouble finding them because they aren't even listed! According to Kansas City Chiefs 2011 Team Management | Tradition Sports Online (http://forums.traditionsportsonline.com/threads/kansas-city-chiefs-2011-team-management.62356/) The Chiefs total salary is $107,390,000 and the Cap space is $12,610,000. I posted that info a week ago, but you two obviously didn't bother to read it because you are still quoting inaccurate figures.

You can look it up here: (click on the little blue box with the arrow in it next to my name.)

I did read it. Your link is wrong and with the wrong numbers. Just because some guy posted it on the internet doesn't make it automatically correct (and yes, irony, blah blah blah).

TopekaRoy
10-04-2011, 03:06 PM
I did read it. Your link is wrong and with the wrong numbers. Just because some guy posted it on the internet doesn't make it automatically correct (and yes, irony, blah blah blah).

So your link is correct even though it doesn't include Hali's ($12 million) and Flowers' ($10 million salaries)? How can that be? How do you know your numbers (sportscity's numbers) are more accurate than mine?

It even says at the bottom of the page you linked to:
Some players may not be listed
Translation: "Even we ourselves are not sure if these numbers are accurate."

I can see at least 2 players who aren't listed.

chief31
10-04-2011, 03:10 PM
First, NE wasn't a "solid passing offense." It was one of the greatest passing offenses of all time.

Opinions of Cassel's ability should not be put on hold until he has a good-to-great supporting cast and coach. Very, very few QBs in the NFL will ever have those advantages. Hell, very few players will. If you want to wait until they retire to judge a player, that's your business. But most people want to discuss the team and its players now.

Orton does have below-average arm strength. Kind of like Weis/Cassel, McDaniels was able to work around that. Look at the statistical difference between Orton's last year and this one. He's clearly regressing.

My opinion of Cassel isn't based upon what he might do in the future. My opinion of Cassel is based around what he's already done. He's a career 83.0 QBR, 59% completion rate, 24-21 overall record, 0-1 playoff record, and 6.6 YPA. He might turn into Drew Brees, he might go the way of Ryan Leaf. Or he might stay at Brad Johnson-levels of averageness. The smart money is on the third.

I didn't say you should put your opinion on hold.

I said I find it difficult to pin him down as anything, seeing as how I have seen him do what he is not supposed be able to do.

As for Those Patriots, you can all them "The greatest of all time", but how do you not consider the loss of Brady as making it far, far less than that?

How many championships have The Chicago Bulls won without Micheal Jordan?

It's arguable that it was the best ever. But not when you subtract Tom Brady. Then it is rather questionable. And, rather or not anySchmoe could have done what Cassel did is extremely opinion-driven.

Cassel was not just a career backup, but he had even spent his entire collegiate career as a backup. One could easily say that he was more inexperienced than a rookie.

Alright, let's look at the three year average of the greats....

Tom Brady - 86.6; 85.7; 85.9
Payton Manning - 71.2; 90.7; 94.7
Drew Brees - 76.9; 67.5; 104.8


Matt Cassel - 89.4; 69.9, 93.0

You don't think this looks appropriate for a three year starter?

I mean, Brady started right out with a Super Bowl team, and his average is right on par with Cassel's first three, and that includes Cassel playing for this team two years.

You can always point to guys like Rivers and Rodgers, who instantly hit the numbers. But I think it is fair to list those guys as exceptional.

But, three of the best of the best QBs in The NFL right now, had average numbers through their firsth thgree seasons.

In fact, it would probably be fair to say that "average" is pretty good for a guy in his first three seasons, no?

______________________________________

Hey. Keep your opinion if you want.

I just think you are leaving yourself open to being made a fool of, should Cassel continue to improve.

But then, that is the best way to be fooled, is by Chiefs doing better than you thought they could.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 03:13 PM
So your link is correct even though it doesn't include Hali's ($12 million) and Flowers' ($10 million salaries)? How can that be? How do you know your numbers (sportscity's numbers) are more accurate than mine?

It even says at the bottom of the page you linked to:
Translation: "Even we ourselves are not sure if these numbers are accurate."

I can see at least 2 players who aren't listed.

Go to the spotrac site referenced in the link. It actually takes you through every contract, although not in as readable of a form: Kansas City Chiefs Player Contracts, Salaries, & Transactions (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/).

You remember that I said actual salaries were below $70M, and specifically said that wasn't the salary cap number, right? Our salary cap number still gives us $30M to spend, and the random message board post you linked to is incredibly off.

And remember, a cap number just isn't the total amount of the contract divided by a number. Things like bonuses are prorated (or sometimes not).

TopekaRoy
10-04-2011, 03:20 PM
. Hell, we're paying out less than $70M in salaries (actual money, not cap) this year (Kansas-City-Chiefs Salaries | Kansas-City-Chiefs Player Salaries | 2011 Kansas-City-Chiefs Salary (http://www.sportscity.com/NFL/Kansas-City-Chiefs-Salaries)).

That link is from SportCity.com The say the source of their numbers is
Source: Spotrac.com (http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/)

Spotrac currently lists Flowers salary at $555,000,000 which is no longer accurate and is not included at all in the total you quote. Hali's Salary isn't even listed there. So not only is your source wrong, your source's source is also wrong!:lol:

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 03:23 PM
I didn't say you should put your opinion on hold.

I said I find it difficult to pin him down as anything, seeing as how I have seen him do what he is not supposed be able to do.

As for Those Patriots, you can all them "The greatest of all time", but how do you not consider the loss of Brady as making it far, far less than that?

How many championships have The Chicago Bulls won without Micheal Jordan?

It's arguable that it was the best ever. But not when you subtract Tom Brady. Then it is rather questionable. And, rather or not anySchmoe could have done what Cassel did is extremely opinion-driven.

Cassel was not just a career backup, but he had even spent his entire collegiate career as a backup. One could easily say that he was more inexperienced than a rookie.

Alright, let's look at the three year average of the greats....

Tom Brady - 86.6; 85.7; 85.9
Payton Manning - 71.2; 90.7; 94.7
Drew Brees - 76.9; 67.5; 104.8


Matt Cassel - 89.4; 69.9, 93.0

You don't think this looks appropriate for a three year starter?

I mean, Brady started right out with a Super Bowl team, and his average is right on par with Cassel's first three, and that includes Cassel playing for this team two years.

You can always point to guys like Rivers and Rodgers, who instantly hit the numbers. But I think it is fair to list those guys as exceptional.

But, three of the best of the best QBs in The NFL right now, had average numbers through their firsth thgree seasons.

In fact, it would probably be fair to say that "average" is pretty good for a guy in his first three seasons, no?

______________________________________

Hey. Keep your opinion if you want.

I just think you are leaving yourself open to being made a fool of, should Cassel continue to improve.

But then, that is the best way to be fooled, is by Chiefs doing better than you thought they could.

Huh? Yes, losing Brady and putting in Cassel severely hindered the record-setting passing offense of the Patriots. How does this help your argument?

If Cassel improves to be a top-10 NFL QB, I'll look foolish. If he doesn't, you will. Sound fair?

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 03:26 PM
That link is from SportCity.com The say the source of their numbers is

Spotrac currently lists Flowers salary at $555,000,000 which is no longer accurate and is not included at all in the total you quote. Hali's Salary isn't even listed there. So not only is your source wrong, your source's source is also wrong.

Huh? Flowers is making $555,000 this season. He was *extended* with the $55M contract, which kicks in next season.

You don't know what you're talking about. Stop pretending you do.

TopekaRoy
10-04-2011, 03:26 PM
Go to the spotrac site referenced in the link. It actually takes you through every contract, although not in as readable of a form: Kansas City Chiefs Player Contracts, Salaries, & Transactions (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/).


Alright. that is a different link then the one I just posted and appears to be more up to date. I'll have to look it over more closely.

OPLookn
10-04-2011, 03:27 PM
We have plenty of money. Our owner is pinching pennies. We're $30M under the cap. If we were paying Cassel $1M a year, we'd be sitting at $40M under the cap. Hell, we cut guys who should have been Chiefs-lifers (like Waters) to save money.

If our owner wanted to field a better team with better players on the lines, he could have. Easily. But he didn't. Hell, we're paying out less than $70M in salaries (actual money, not cap) this year (Kansas-City-Chiefs Salaries | Kansas-City-Chiefs Player Salaries | 2011 Kansas-City-Chiefs Salary (http://www.sportscity.com/NFL/Kansas-City-Chiefs-Salaries)).

Neither Cassel nor any other Chief has anything to do with it.

If you wanna start throwing out links here's another one showing all the teams and their cap space. http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/16/updated-cap-space-for-all-32-teams/. Guess who's got the most cap space, we do with almost 33 million in free space. Guess who's got less cap space? The Minnesota Vikings and we beat them on Sunday. If you can't figure out that cap space and the ability of a team to win games doesn't matter by now nothing will.

Having cap space and overpaying a player isn't comparing apples to apples. Comparing an average QB pay to an elite QB pay is. If you want to grab on to any excuse other than that we're over paying for a QB that's average that's cool. Fact is we're over paying for an average QB and that'll make our team less likely to go out and get a better one or try to draft one that could be better.

Not to mention that a few posts ago you posted a thought about Cassel not being a top 10 QB. Which would make me think you want a top 10 QB. You know what makes that more likely to happen? Not paying someone that's not in the top 10 a top 10 salary.

chief31
10-04-2011, 03:28 PM
Huh? Yes, losing Brady and putting in Cassel severely hindered the record-setting passing offense of the Patriots. How does this help your argument?

If Cassel improves to be a top-10 NFL QB, I'll look foolish. If he doesn't, you will. Sound fair?



How's that?

I never said he was a top ten QB.

Anyway.... The well-seasoned expert Tom Brady was removed from that Pats offense....

So how about Cassel didn't play on the greatest passing offense of all time?

If Matt Cassel was the QB for the greatest passing offense of all time, then clearly saying he is average would be ridiculous.

okikcfan
10-04-2011, 03:39 PM
That link is out of date. Click on it and see how mauch Hali and Flowers are making. You may have trouble finding them because they aren't even listed! According to Kansas City Chiefs 2011 Team Management | Tradition Sports Online (http://forums.traditionsportsonline.com/threads/kansas-city-chiefs-2011-team-management.62356/) The Chiefs total salary is $107,390,000 and the Cap space is $12,610,000. I posted that info a week ago, but you two obviously didn't bother to read it because you are still quoting inaccurate figures.

You can look it up here: (click on the little blue box with the arrow in it next to my name.)


I'm so so sorry, Can you ever find it in your heart to forgive me? :whipping1:

TopekaRoy
10-04-2011, 03:46 PM
If you wanna start throwing out links here's another one showing all the teams and their cap space. http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/16/updated-cap-space-for-all-32-teams/.

That link list's the Chiefs salary at $93 1/2 million and it was written August 16. Spotrac lists the total salary at $62 million and there's no date. Why is it so hard to find a current accurate number? I know it's inexact with incentives and bonuses but that information should be easy enough to obtain.

It's very frustrating.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 03:48 PM
How's that?

I never said he was a top ten QB.

Anyway.... The well-seasoned expert Tom Brady was removed from that Pats offense....

So how about Cassel didn't play on the greatest passing offense of all time?

If Matt Cassel was the QB for the greatest passing offense of all time, then clearly saying he is average would be ridiculous.

The 2007 Pats was the greatest passing offense of all time. The only real difference between the 2007 Pats and the 2008 Pats was the QB. We see how Cassel does with WRs, OL, RB, and coach of the greatest passing offense of all time. The answer is "solid."

If you're trying to say that Cassel transformed the greatest passing offense of all time into merely a solid passing offense, well, again, I'm not sure that helps your argument either.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 04:07 PM
That link list's the Chiefs salary at $93 1/2 million and it was written August 16. Spotrac lists the total salary at $62 million and there's no date. Why is it so hard to find a current accurate number? I know it's inexact with incentives and bonuses but that information should be easy enough to obtain.

It's very frustrating.

Yeah, they haven't updated it with a final number, or the rookie numbers. Which is why I said $70M to be safe.

But it's a very accurate picture of just how little we're spending.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 04:19 PM
If you wanna start throwing out links here's another one showing all the teams and their cap space. http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/08/16/updated-cap-space-for-all-32-teams/. Guess who's got the most cap space, we do with almost 33 million in free space. Guess who's got less cap space? The Minnesota Vikings and we beat them on Sunday. If you can't figure out that cap space and the ability of a team to win games doesn't matter by now nothing will.

Having cap space and overpaying a player isn't comparing apples to apples. Comparing an average QB pay to an elite QB pay is. If you want to grab on to any excuse other than that we're over paying for a QB that's average that's cool. Fact is we're over paying for an average QB and that'll make our team less likely to go out and get a better one or try to draft one that could be better.

Not to mention that a few posts ago you posted a thought about Cassel not being a top 10 QB. Which would make me think you want a top 10 QB. You know what makes that more likely to happen? Not paying someone that's not in the top 10 a top 10 salary.

FYI, that number is from August 16. It's about two months out of date and includes dead cap space.

We're only going to get a top-10 QB if we draft one. And the rookies have a cap now, you know. We can fit any rookie QB, even taken 1st overall, in our massive cap space. I can barely muster the energy to say it again, it doesn't matter how much Cassel makes. We're clearly hoarding our pennies.

Teams like the Vikings that waste their cap on bad (re: overpriced and old) free agents are worse than those like us who hoard cap space. But teams that win championships fall in the middle of those two extremes. They certainly don't leave the RT spot to be manned by the likes of Barry Richardson or the FS spot by Sabby Piscatelli.

chief31
10-04-2011, 05:33 PM
The 2007 Pats was the greatest passing offense of all time. The only real difference between the 2007 Pats and the 2008 Pats was the QB. We see how Cassel does with WRs, OL, RB, and coach of the greatest passing offense of all time. The answer is "solid."

If you're trying to say that Cassel transformed the greatest passing offense of all time into merely a solid passing offense, well, again, I'm not sure that helps your argument either.

Nope. Cassel never played on the greatest offense of all time.

Pretty simple English there.

There really is no argument here.

Great how you decided to focus on something so trivial.

Anyway, as I said.....

You are entitled to your opinion.

But, I think you are selling Cassel's accomplishments short, since several of those who are considered to be the best of the best (Brady, Manning, Brees) had very similar careers through their first three seasons, to what Cassel has had.

That's pretty much the reason I have not been able to label Cassel, is because, to this point, his career is quite similar to those mens'.

Those guys grew into the fantastic passers that they are today, from a similar position to where Cassel is in his, today.

But if you prefer to just carry on about how Matt Cassel QBd the greatest offense of all time, I'm afraid you are all alone in that room.

OPLookn
10-04-2011, 05:34 PM
FYI, that number is from August 16. It's about two months out of date and includes dead cap space.

We're only going to get a top-10 QB if we draft one. And the rookies have a cap now, you know. We can fit any rookie QB, even taken 1st overall, in our massive cap space. I can barely muster the energy to say it again, it doesn't matter how much Cassel makes. We're clearly hoarding our pennies.

Teams like the Vikings that waste their cap on bad (re: overpriced and old) free agents are worse than those like us who hoard cap space. But teams that win championships fall in the middle of those two extremes. They certainly don't leave the RT spot to be manned by the likes of Barry Richardson or the FS spot by Sabby Piscatelli.

If you can find a better and more accurate one that's cool, doesn't really matter. I can barely muster the energy to keep beating my head against a wall when going back and forth with you but I'll try. Cassel is overpaid or he's a top 10 QB because that's how he's paid. Not to mention you just said above that the Vikings are old and overpriced which is why they were so close to the cap limit. So either Cassel is overpaid or he's an elite QB there's really no way out of that because it's an either or situation. You've said he's an average QB so the other is that he's over paid.

To upgrade everything you want it'll take money. I really would be curious what it is and agree that it's hard to find an accurate web site that's up to day. Regardless, I'd love to have an QB drafted that isn't named Stanzi. I do think Stanzi was a good pickup and would challenge a backup for that role. Hope I'm wrong and he's a starting QB in the future.

Whatever the case may be it's been an interesting going back and forth with you and I'll be curious to see Cassel's development during the rest of his contract and what we do in the role of QB.

:bananen_smilies046:

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 05:45 PM
Nope. Cassel never played on the greatest offense of all time.

Pretty simple English there.

There really is no argument here.

Great how you decided to focus on something so trivial.

Anyway, as I said.....

You are entitled to your opinion.

But, I think you are selling Cassel's accomplishments short, since several of those who are considered to be the best of the best (Brady, Manning, Brees) had very similar careers through their first three seasons, to what Cassel has had.

That's pretty much the reason I have not been able to label Cassel, is because, to this point, his career is quite similar to those mens'.

Those guys grew into the fantastic passers that they are today, from a similar position to where Cassel is in his, today.

But if you prefer to just carry on about how Matt Cassel QBd the greatest offense of all time, I'm afraid you are all alone in that room.

Did I really have to say Cassel was the QB for [what had been the previous year] the best passing offense of all time? Really? You couldn't pick that up from the context? Or are you just disagreeing to be disagreeable?

You seem to want to avoid committing here to saying Cassel will ever be a top QB. I can't blame you, because you'd look like an overly optimistic homer who was missing obvious dangerous signs if it doesn't happen. You seem to want to be able to say a couple years down the road, should Cassel flame out :"No, I never supported Cassel, I just thought we should wait and see."

But live a little. Grow some guts. Make a prediction one way or the other.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 05:48 PM
If you can find a better and more accurate one that's cool, doesn't really matter. I can barely muster the energy to keep beating my head against a wall when going back and forth with you but I'll try. Cassel is overpaid or he's a top 10 QB because that's how he's paid. Not to mention you just said above that the Vikings are old and overpriced which is why they were so close to the cap limit. So either Cassel is overpaid or he's an elite QB there's really no way out of that because it's an either or situation. You've said he's an average QB so the other is that he's over paid.

To upgrade everything you want it'll take money. I really would be curious what it is and agree that it's hard to find an accurate web site that's up to day. Regardless, I'd love to have an QB drafted that isn't named Stanzi. I do think Stanzi was a good pickup and would challenge a backup for that role. Hope I'm wrong and he's a starting QB in the future.

Whatever the case may be it's been an interesting going back and forth with you and I'll be curious to see Cassel's development during the rest of his contract and what we do in the role of QB.



Cassel is an average QB who is overpaid. It does not affect this team's performance at all how much he is overpaid. As I showed you, we have massive amounts of cap room and could absorb another three Cassels without hitting our cap limit.

Are people really not getting this?

OPLookn
10-04-2011, 05:52 PM
Cassel is an average QB who is overpaid. It does not affect this team's performance at all how much he is overpaid. As I showed you, we have massive amounts of cap room and could absorb another three Cassels without hitting our cap limit.

Are people really not getting this?

I get it, I just think you didn't understand what I was saying. I don't mean that as an insult, shot at you or whatever way. I just think our wires got crossed. To me cap space says absolutely nothing about how good or bad a team is. Look at Philly, they went out and broke the bank for their team, look at where they are at. Why not save 30 mil and have the exact same record.

I was merely trying to understand why the cap space mattered at all. Would you rather us be like the Vikings and spend every last penny and be 0-4? Just trying to figure out what this obsession is with us not hitting the cap space? Who out there has been worth the money that we missed out on that would have made a singular difference in the beat downs that were the first two games or swung the Chargers loss?

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 06:14 PM
I get it, I just think you didn't understand what I was saying. I don't mean that as an insult, shot at you or whatever way. I just think our wires got crossed. To me cap space says absolutely nothing about how good or bad a team is. Look at Philly, they went out and broke the bank for their team, look at where they are at. Why not save 30 mil and have the exact same record.

I was merely trying to understand why the cap space mattered at all. Would you rather us be like the Vikings and spend every last penny and be 0-4? Just trying to figure out what this obsession is with us not hitting the cap space? Who out there has been worth the money that we missed out on that would have made a singular difference in the beat downs that were the first two games or swung the Chargers loss?

A team that spends a ton of money is not guarenteed a super bowl berth, or even a decent record.

However, a team that is spending $10M-$20M less than any other team in the NFL is going to win nothing. The depth will not be there when someone key gets injured. Championship teams aren't built on the cheap. Ours is. We let go useful guys like Waters and Smith over money issues. We refused to sign or draft legit NT or RT, even though the FAs were out there.

Guys we could have gone (and I'm not including guys who re-signed with their own teams): Aubreyo Franklin, Manny Lawson, Dawan Landry, Daniel Manning, Stephen Tulloch, Paul Pozlunsky, or pretty much any OT with a pulse. Not to mention re-signing Waters, Edwards, and Smith. Not all of these guys, obviously. But just a better RT and SS could have won us the Chargers game. A couple better LBs (replace Belcher and grrom Houston) and a NT could have been the difference in the first two.

A team's entire chance of competing should not end when their safety, tight end, and running back go down. It's crazy that those three spots are critical to any team's success or failure.

chief31
10-04-2011, 06:17 PM
Did I really have to say Cassel was the QB for [what had been the previous year] the best passing offense of all time? Really? You couldn't pick that up from the context? Or are you just disagreeing to be disagreeable?

Context?

No Sir!

You are a man of pure factual wording, are you not?

You lost your marbles last time I took your words for their obvious context.

Still...... No surprise that you chose to double-down on that nonsense.


You seem to want to avoid committing here to saying Cassel will ever be a top QB. I can't blame you, because you'd look like an overly optimistic homer who was missing obvious dangerous signs if it doesn't happen. You seem to want to be able to say a couple years down the road, should Cassel flame out :"No, I never supported Cassel, I just thought we should wait and see."

But live a little. Grow some guts. Make a prediction one way or the other.

Oh no! A challenge to my "guts"?

What ever shall I do?

There was no argument here. You just refuse to see your exaggerations for anything less than fact.

I think you are a very smart guy, who is too prideful to acknowledge your own mistakes.

I mean, you went so far as to call Tom Brady (A late sixth round pick) a blue chip prospect, just to try and save yourself from having to admit to the slightest error.

Can you believe that?!?!?!

I know you would enjoy a laugh at anybody else trying to label a late sixth round pick as a blue chip prospect.:lol:

But, just out of shere morbid pleasure.....

What record did Tom Brady get that "greatest passing offense of all time" to the year after Cassel managed 11-5?

I bet it was a whole lot better than the pedestrian Cassel did, wasn't it?

Don't you dare say it was 10-6 though. :lol:

And, any prediction I would have for Cassel's future would be less of a statement about Matt Cassel, than about the team/staff around him.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 06:22 PM
Context?

No Sir!

You are a man of pure factual wording, are you not?

You lost your marbles last time I took your words for their obvious context.

Still...... No surprise that you chose to double-down on that nonsense.



Oh no! A challenge to my "guts"?

What ever shall I do?

There was no argument here. You just refuse to see your exaggerations for anything less than fact.

I think you are a very smart guy, who is too prideful to acknowledge your own mistakes.

I mean, you went so far as to call Tom Brady (A late sixth round pick) a blue chip prospect, just to try and save yourself from having to admit to the slightest error.

Can you believe that?!?!?!

I know you would enjoy a laugh at anybody else trying to label a late sixth round pick as a blue chip prospect.:lol:

But, just out of shere morbid pleasure.....

What record did Tom Brady get that "greatest passing offense of all time" to the year after Cassel managed 11-5?

I bet it was a whole lot better than the pedestrian Cassel did, wasn't it?

Don't you dare say it was 10-6 though. :lol:

And, any prediction I would have for Cassel's future would be less of a statement about Matt Cassel, than about the team/staff around him.

You keep responding to me buddy, not me to you. You obviously care more about my opinion than I'll ever care about yours.

And you have no guts. That's good to know.

chief31
10-04-2011, 06:40 PM
You keep responding to me buddy, not me to you. You obviously care more about my opinion than I'll ever care about yours.

And you have no guts. That's good to know.

:lol:

I'll leave you alone so as to avoid another temper tantrum.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 07:30 PM
:lol:

I'll leave you alone so as to avoid another temper tantrum.

Bye. I'll miss your tremendous cowardice. I'll revisit in a couple years when you say that Cassel was never good and you never supported him.

chief31
10-04-2011, 07:50 PM
You keep responding to me buddy, not me to you.

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight............. .......

But yeah...

Tom Brady: 10-6 after Matt Cassel took the same team to 11-5.

Not bad for a late sixth round blue chip prospect though.
:lol:

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 08:04 PM
Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight............. .......

But yeah...

Tom Brady: 10-6 after Matt Cassel took the same team to 11-5.

Not bad for a late sixth round blue chip prospect though.
:lol:

While your responding to my old posts is in a way flattering, you really have to get over your need for my company.

Yes, Brady did poorly after coming back from season-ending surgey. You think this helps your point somehow? And Tom Brady would have gone 1st overall if people had realized how good he was. He was a blue chip prospect (seriously, do yourself a favor and look the word up) that no one realized was that great.

chief31
10-04-2011, 08:34 PM
You keep responding to me buddy, not me to you.

I hear ya man. It's crazy how you keep not responding to me.

:lol:




Yes, Brady did poorly after coming back from season-ending surgey. You think this helps your point somehow? And Tom Brady would have gone 1st overall if people had realized how good he was. He was a blue chip prospect (seriously, do yourself a favor and look the word up) that no one realized was that great.

How good he was?

He wasn't.

He didn't break past an average QB Rating until his fourth year as a starter.

He was an effective game manager. But as he grew into a gun-slinger, they quit winning Super Bowls.

He was, at best, a slightly above average QB when they were winning Super Bowls.

Myself, I prefer the three-time Super Bowl champ to the "blue chip" gun-slinger.

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 08:58 PM
I hear ya man. It's crazy how you keep not responding to me.

:lol:



How good he was?

He wasn't.

He didn't break past an average QB Rating until his fourth year as a starter.

He was an effective game manager. But as he grew into a gun-slinger, they quit winning Super Bowls.

He was, at best, a slightly above average QB when they were winning Super Bowls.

Myself, I prefer the three-time Super Bowl champ to the "blue chip" gun-slinger.



Again, I'm flattered that you keep responding to my old posts. Especially because you were out of here before I threw a tantrum. Am I the only one who will respond to you or something? I promise you, it's just out of fact checking, not as a sign that you have anytrhing to say.

And your inability to understand the term "blue-chip prospect" is passing sad and entering ridiculous.

chief31
10-04-2011, 09:04 PM
You keep responding to me buddy, not me to you.

You just can't stop not responding to me.:lol:


Again, I'm flattered that you keep responding to my old posts. Especially because you were out of here before I threw a tantrum. Am I the only one who will respond to you or something? I promise you, it's just out of fact checking, not as a sign that you have anytrhing to say.

And your inability to understand the term "blue-chip prospect" is passing sad and entering ridiculous.

I understand.

A blue chip prospect is a player rated as the best in the nation.....

And then not drafted until the end of the sixth round!

:lol:


Especially because you were out of here before I threw a tantrum.

I was either mistaken, or.....

I lied.

Either way, it won't be the last time.:D

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 09:17 PM
You just can't stop not responding to me.:lol:



I understand.

A blue chip prospect is a player rated as the best in the nation.....

And then not drafted until the end of the sixth round!

:lol:



I was either mistaken, or.....

I lied.

Either way, it won't be the last time.:D



You, a liar who doesn't know what he's talking about? Get out.

And a blue-chip prospect is one who can't miss. Like Brady, though no one knew it in 2001. But, hey, whatever wrong definition brings you happiness.

I'm putting the clock at two years until you pretend you never liked Cassel at all. That sound right?

chief31
10-04-2011, 09:20 PM
You keep responding to me buddy, not me to you.

It seems unstoppable, your ability to not respond to me!

:lol:


You, a liar who doesn't know what he's talking about? Get out.

And a blue-chip prospect is one who can't miss. Like Brady, though no one knew it in 2001. But, hey, whatever wrong definition brings you happiness.

I'm putting the clock at two years until you pretend you never liked Cassel at all. That sound right?

So, blue chip has nothing to do with a player's rating?

i like you, but you're crazy. - YouTube

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 09:34 PM
It seems unstoppable, your ability to not respond to me!

:lol:



So, blue chip has nothing to do with a player's rating?

i like you, but you're crazy. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvOHbxBAEN8)

Sure, a player is ranked "can't-miss. " In Brady's case they were wrong. What's going over you head here?

And you're still responding to my initial post. Flattering, but get a life.

chief31
10-04-2011, 09:40 PM
You keep responding to me buddy, not me to you.

PLEASE RESPOND! I can't handle you not responding to me!

:lol:


Sure, a player is ranked "can't-miss. " In Brady's case they were wrong. What's going over you head here?

And you're still responding to my initial post. Flattering, but get a life.

So, wait a minute....

You don't like me?

But I NEED you to like me!!!!

So, since Brady wasn't rated as a blue chip, he was a blue chip anyway?

It is a rating.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

jmlamerson
10-04-2011, 10:46 PM
PLEASE RESPOND! I can't handle you not responding to me!

:lol:



So, wait a minute....

You don't like me?

But I NEED you to like me!!!!

So, since Brady wasn't rated as a blue chip, he was a blue chip anyway?

It is a rating.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

It *is* a rating. That can be either pre-draft or post-draft. What's going over your head here?

And I feel the need to take your conversation here to its end. If I don't talk to you, who will?

TopekaRoy
10-05-2011, 12:04 AM
It *is* a rating. That can be either pre-draft or post-draft. What's going over your head here?

And I feel the need to take your conversation here to its end. If I don't talk to you, who will?
Maybe I can help you guys out here. You seem to be having trouble with the term "prospect." A blue chip prospect is a player who is expected to be one of the best and to be picked in the first round. Brady was never a blue chip prospect because he was never rated that highly when he was a prospect.

Over the years he has become a blue chip player which shows that scouts were wrong about his potential and should have rated him as a blue chip prospect but they didn't.

So quit calling him a blue chip prospect. He is not a prospect now and wasn't "blue chip" when he was a prospect.

He is, however, absolutely a blue chip player now.

chief31
10-05-2011, 09:58 AM
You keep responding to me buddy, not me to you.

Are you sure about this?

It is seeming like maybe you were full of it. But we all know that that couldn't be the case.

So why does it seem like you are responding to me?


It *is* a rating. That can be either pre-draft or post-draft. What's going over your head here?

And I feel the need to take your conversation here to its end. If I don't talk to you, who will?


It's like a Ben Stiller movie, where he just keeps telling more and more lies to try and cover an initial, extremely innocent, fib, or mistake.

First you tried to claim Tom Brady as a blue chip prospect, because he disproves your exaggerative claims of not being able to win a Super Bowl without one.

Then, because he was drafted in the late sixth round, thus disproving any claim that he was a blue chip, you try to bend the term's meaning by suggesting that a blue chip prospect can be rated low, knowing that "blue chip" is a high rating, not a low one?

Then, to take it even further, you again try to change the meaning of the term to suggest that a long-time NFL starter can somehow become a blue chip prospect?

And next you will be telling us how you grew up "milking" cats to feed the kittens.


:lol: :yahoo:

You know, we all watch that kind of movie and think "there's no way somebody keeps inventing new, ridiculous lies like that, it just couldn't really happen".

And yet.... here you are.

jmlamerson
10-05-2011, 10:31 AM
Are you sure about this?

It is seeming like maybe you were full of it. But we all know that that couldn't be the case.

So why does it seem like you are responding to me?




It's like a Ben Stiller movie, where he just keeps telling more and more lies to try and cover an initial, extremely innocent, fib, or mistake.

First you tried to claim Tom Brady as a blue chip prospect, because he disproves your exaggerative claims of not being able to win a Super Bowl without one.

Then, because he was drafted in the late sixth round, thus disproving any claim that he was a blue chip, you try to bend the term's meaning by suggesting that a blue chip prospect can be rated low, knowing that "blue chip" is a high rating, not a low one?

Then, to take it even further, you again try to change the meaning of the term to suggest that a long-time NFL starter can somehow become a blue chip prospect?

And next you will be telling us how you grew up "milking" cats to feed the kittens.


:lol: :yahoo:

You know, we all watch that kind of movie and think "there's no way somebody keeps inventing new, ridiculous lies like that, it just couldn't really happen".

And yet.... here you are.

Uh huh. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself here.

A quick question, when you created "chief31" as your name here, was 31 your age? If so, wouldn't you be close to about 40 now? If so, does the thought that you're wasting your life starting semantic-driven arguments on message boards ever depressing to you?

jmlamerson
10-05-2011, 10:35 AM
Maybe I can help you guys out here. You seem to be having trouble with the term "prospect." A blue chip prospect is a player who is expected to be one of the best and to be picked in the first round. Brady was never a blue chip prospect because he was never rated that highly when he was a prospect.

Over the years he has become a blue chip player which shows that scouts were wrong about his potential and should have rated him as a blue chip prospect but they didn't.

So quit calling him a blue chip prospect. He is not a prospect now and wasn't "blue chip" when he was a prospect.

He is, however, absolutely a blue chip player now.

Whatever term will make everyone happy, I am happy to use. There's an old lawyer saying, "When you have the facts, pound the facts. When you have the law you pound the law. When you have neither, you pound the table."

Whining about the semantics of what "blue-chip" and "high-powered offense mean" is chief31 pounding the table. The only bright spot is that he'll be calling Cassel the worst player we ever had in a couple years if he doesn't work out.

chief31
10-05-2011, 10:49 AM
Uh huh. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself here.

A quick question, when you created "chief31" as your name here, was 31 your age? If so, wouldn't you be close to about 40 now? If so, does the thought that you're wasting your life starting semantic-driven arguments on message boards ever depressing to you?

Awww.. You don't want to throw another lie on the fire?

NAH! You are ready to make uneducated assumptions now!

WOOT!!!

http://bp1.blogger.com/_n5kIY6r8apg/R1E626b7VvI/AAAAAAAAAPI/_okOu_bSvuw/s1600-R/priest2.bmp


Do you have some rule against thinking before blurting out whatever comes to your mind?

However, since you seem so interested iin me personally now....

At any age, I enjoy a little internet fun. You don't?

You put yourself through the agony of these discussions for someone else's benefit?

What a humanitarian!!!!

Seriously.... Do you not realize how silly it is to try and make fun of someone for debating online, when you are playing the exact same game?

Depressed?

Not me.:D

azchiefsfan
10-05-2011, 11:08 AM
Watch out 31, he'll go all hood on you any moment. You know with the asses and the capping and all. (: It's rather like wrestling with a pig. After a while you figure out they enjoy it.

jmlamerson
10-05-2011, 11:19 AM
Awww.. You don't want to throw another lie on the fire?

NAH! You are ready to make uneducated assumptions now!

WOOT!!!

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2011/10/3.jpg


Do you have some rule against thinking before blurting out whatever comes to your mind?

However, since you seem so interested iin me personally now....

At any age, I enjoy a little internet fun. You don't?

You put yourself through the agony of these discussions for someone else's benefit?

What a humanitarian!!!!

Seriously.... Do you not realize how silly it is to try and make fun of someone for debating online, when you are playing the exact same game?

Depressed?

Not me.:D

I'm not making fun of you for debating online. I love debating online.

I'm making fun of you because you're an internet troll. Which is below pederasts and serial killers on life's hierarchy.

jmlamerson
10-05-2011, 11:25 AM
Watch out 31, he'll go all hood on you any moment. You know with the asses and the capping and all. (: It's rather like wrestling with a pig. After a while you figure out they enjoy it.

It says that a man may be judged by the company he keeps . . .

TopekaRoy
10-05-2011, 11:31 AM
Whatever term will make everyone happy, I am happy to use. There's an old lawyer saying, "When you have the facts, pound the facts. When you have the law you pound the law. When you have neither, you pound the table."

Whining about the semantics of what "blue-chip" and "high-powered offense mean" is chief31 pounding the table. The only bright spot is that he'll be calling Cassel the worst player we ever had in a couple years if he doesn't work out.
I agree, it's a silly argument. But it doesn't help your agument to use the incorrect term. There is a difference between blue chip prospect and blue chip player. When you use the wrong words it just gives your opponent one more thing to jump on you about, and takes the focus of your core thesis, which in your case is hard enough to defend. :smile

chief31
10-05-2011, 11:40 AM
I'm not making fun of you for debating online. I love debating online.

I'm making fun of you because you're an internet troll. Which is below pederasts and serial killers on life's hierarchy.

If you can't handle a little back and fourth, then go cry quietly somewhere.

But follow the rules and avoid the temptation to let your inner child get you an infraction.

It's just playful banter. Don't take it so hard. It is suppoesd to be fun, and if it isn't, then why keep doing it?

Have some self-control.

Ryfo18
10-05-2011, 11:44 AM
I'm not making fun of you for debating online. I love debating online.

I'm making fun of you because you're an internet troll. Which is below pederasts and serial killers on life's hierarchy.


If you can't handle a little back and fourth, then go cry quietly somewhere.

But follow the rules and avoid the temptation to let your inner child get you an infraction.

It's just playful banter. Don't take it so hard. It is suppoesd to be fun, and if it isn't, then why keep doing it?

Have some self-control.

:efpge: :beat_DeadHorse:

OPLookn
10-05-2011, 11:56 AM
:efpge: :beat_DeadHorse:

It's like watching my brothers argue, neither one of them wants to back down and possibly admit the other might have some sort of merit in both of their discussions and both want the last word.

I've had my back and forths with Chief though and in the end we've come to realize that some points we agree on, some we agree to disagree and some just will never ever be brought up again.

:lol::bananen_smilies046:

jmlamerson
10-05-2011, 12:22 PM
If you can't handle a little back and fourth, then go cry quietly somewhere.

But follow the rules and avoid the temptation to let your inner child get you an infraction.

It's just playful banter. Don't take it so hard. It is suppoesd to be fun, and if it isn't, then why keep doing it?

Have some self-control.

I'm not the one threatening infractions because I lost an argument. Pathetic.

chief31
10-05-2011, 12:26 PM
Watch out 31, he'll go all hood on you any moment. You know with the asses and the capping and all. (: It's rather like wrestling with a pig. After a while you figure out they enjoy it.

I have seen the worst of JML. (So far)

But I still think he loves me. :lol:


It's like watching my brothers argue, neither one of them wants to back down and possibly admit the other might have some sort of merit in both of their discussions and both want the last word.

I've had my back and forths with Chief though and in the end we've come to realize that some points we agree on, some we agree to disagree and some just will never ever be brought up again.

:lol::bananen_smilies046:

It's all fun. Some of the remarks sting sometimes. But it is easy enough to get over without taking it hard.

I have been into it with most of the people here, at one point, or another.

Some hold grudges, while some deal with it more lightly.

And JML is one of my favorite posters here. I agree with him on almost every major topic there is.

We end up getting into these long, drawn-out, slap-fests because disagreeing with even the smallest thing gets him fired up.

I makes mistakes all the time. It is part of life, as nobody is perfect, and I am not even close.

But, if you show me where I made an error, I am happy to admit it.

JML becomes defensive when a minor flaw in some statement is pointed out. And immediately ups the ante.

Knowing that Tom Brady was not, in any way, a Blue Chip prospect, means that he can raise the bet all day, but, eventually, that small flaw will be exposed.

Hard to pass up an all-in bet, when I know that my hand is a winner.

:D

jmlamerson
10-05-2011, 12:28 PM
I have seen the worst of JML. (So far)

But I still think he loves me. :lol:



It's all fun. Some of the remarks sting sometimes. But it is easy enough to get over without taking it hard.

I have been into it with most of the people here, at one point, or another.

Some hold grudges, while some deal with it more lightly.

And JML is one of my favorite posters here. I agree with him on almost every major topic there is.

We end up getting into these long, drawn-out, slap-fests because disagreeing with even the smallest thing gets him fired up.

I makes mistakes all the time. It is part of life, as nobody is perfect, and I am not even close.

But, if you show me where I made an error, I am happy to admit it.

JML becomes defensive when a minor flaw in some statement is pointed out. And immediately ups the ante.

Knowing that Tom Brady was not, in any way, a Blue Chip prospect, means that he can raise the bet all day, but, eventually, that small flaw will be exposed.

Hard to pass up an all-in bet, when I know that my hand is a winner.

:D

It's because you're a troll. You'd have been kicked off this board a long time ago for trolling if you weren't friends with the guy who created it.

chief31
10-05-2011, 12:32 PM
I'm not the one threatening infractions because I lost an argument. Pathetic.

Now, now.

You know you broke the rules, and I have skipped my MOD duties, to allow you to get over it, and move on.

But, I don't think you convinced anybody that Tom Brady was a blue chip prospect. And you certainly continue to respond to me, despite claiming that you don't.

Are you certain I lost an argument? Because it doesn't feel much like it.

jmlamerson
10-05-2011, 12:34 PM
Now, now.

You know you broke the rules, and I have skipped my MOD duties, to allow you to get over it, and move on.

But, I don't think you convinced anybody that Tom Brady was a blue chip prospect. And you certainly continue to respond to me, despite claiming that you don't.

Are you certain I lost an argument? Because it doesn't feel much like it.

What rules did I break exactly? You hide behing your mod power to insult other posters and hide the fact you lose arguments. You'll probably lock the thread soon as soon as you can be sure you'll get the last word. Again, pathetic.

chief31
10-05-2011, 12:34 PM
It's because you're a troll. You'd have been kicked off this board a long time ago for trolling if you weren't friends with the guy who created it.

Awwww. Really?

You can't just get over it?

jmlamerson
10-05-2011, 12:35 PM
Awwww. Really?

You can't just get over it?

I don't like internet trolls. I think you are a very sad, very pathetic guy who thinks he's smart and tries to get over the disappointments in his real life by arguing on the internet. Am I wrong?

chief31
10-05-2011, 12:35 PM
What rules did I break exactly? You hide behing your mod power to insult other posters and hide the fact you lose arguments. You'll probably lock the thread soon as soon as you can be sure you'll get the last word. Again, pathetic.

Come on now...

One more chance to take a breath and calm down.....

chief31
10-05-2011, 12:38 PM
You'll probably lock the thread soon

That's not a bad idea....

Chiefster
10-05-2011, 02:44 PM
:lol: I love this thread!

tornadospotter
10-05-2011, 10:43 PM
I am not going to go thru this whole thread to read every post in this thread, to find the problem! I know what the problem is! Stop the ****ing arguing that leads to attacks of persons that are members! Name calling! Calling a Mod a Troll! Debate issues if you want, but when it gets to a point! When it gets to a point of heated debate, take some time and cool down. There is no need to take different opinions to the level of name calling. Stop taking debates on subjects personal! End your debate when it gets to that level, stop posting in that thread, move on and see that time tells the truth. It will always be correct. We can all think we are right, and in our minds we are, until not. I for one chose to believe we will never lose a game until it is played and we do! I believe every Chief player will be great, many fail, some do become and move on, or become after moving on. While I do criticize at times, certain players, I am always a fan of them, while they are Chiefs.