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texaschief
11-14-2011, 07:22 PM
Haley is a failed experiment and it needs to stop asap. How many times do we need to see this team show up COMPLETELY unprepared before people begin to realize it's not ALL on the players? I see so much complaining about Cassel and NOTHING about Haley... it's baffling to me. The guy starts out 0-2 in BLOWOUTS to coaches who use to be with the organization and ultimately goes 0-3. Then, he wins a couple games against 2 of the worst teams in the league and pulls one off against a Raiders team who didn't have a QB and suddenly he's getting a pass!

Losses AT HOME to an 0-7 Miami team and a Denver team with possibly the worst QB in the league who only completed 2 passes is inexcusable. This team is NEVER prepared. It showed in preseason and the first 3 games of the season and has now reared its head again these past 2 weeks.

I saw nothing but excuses for this team for the Miami loss. Almost EVERY team has to play on Monday night!! That's no excuse for getting blown the #uck out by an 0-7 team at home. Guess what, it's about to happen again against a better Pittsburgh team after the monday night game at New England.

What kills me is that now with Cassel having surgery on his hand, there's going to be all this BS defense of Haley that he's lost so many of his starters to injury. It doesn't matter who he's lost. The fact that the Chiefs can't be competitive has nothing to do with losing starters. Yeah, you may lose games because of that, but not being at least competitive and prepared week in and week out lays squarely on the head coach. If you can't figure out that Denver is going to run the ball and do something to prevent it, THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!!

It's painfully obvious that the Chiefs can't circle any one game on their remaining schedule and say, "we have a GOOD chance to win this game." In fact, you probably saw the Chiefs last win 2 weeks ago against San Diego.

Todd Haley is 3 years into his tenure here in Kansas City... he owns this. There's no more passing the buck off onto the previous regime. It's YOUR fault this team isn't prepared to compete. It's YOUR fault the offense isn't performing under your leadership. No magical beard is going to hide the fact that you are NOT a head coach. When your QB is yelling at you on the sideline that, "you don't know what the #uck you're talking about," it's probably not a good sign.

The failure isn't all on Haley. It lies on Pioli that he can't recognize how epically Haley has failed at his job. Again, this isn't about losing... this is about the manner in which this team is losing. There's no excuse for the way this team has performed since preseason and I hope that while getting completely disemboweled over the next 5 weeks, Todd Haley gets exposed for the fraud of a head coach that he truly is.

Go back to coaching golf. I hear Tiger needs some help.

matthewschiefs
11-14-2011, 08:02 PM
I agree as I have been stating the amount of blow out losses 2 of them at home 1 to a winless team is just not getting the job done. And the fact that we didn't stack the box to stop the run yesterday was just AWFUL.

All in all Haley has had to deal with injuries and does deserve a little bit of a break for some of the things that has happened. But he has far passed that little break. We just need to get through this season then look for a proven winner. It's tough to do I no that it's going to be yet anther set back but given what we have seen this year I don't think we can keep going much more. Things just are not working out.

garciakcfan
11-14-2011, 08:59 PM
2 of those players that just happened to get hurt were top 100 players in the league... Not only that but they are PLAYMAKERS and GAME BREAKERS.... Those guys are special.... And thats not easy to replace.. And the 3rd was coming off a great rookie season. So yeah, IMO, those excuses count and when they did happen i knew we were in for a toilet bowl of a season and you gotta be kiddin me if you didn't think the same.... I'm not trying to say that haley is god but you should look at the whole situation... Take into consideration all the turnover on the offensive coaching too....

OPLookn
11-14-2011, 09:42 PM
Yes, a horrible Miami team that won again this weekend. Also a horrible Denver team that now has the same record as us. I didn't hear to much complaining from you when Haley was coaching the Chiefs to division champs. Now that Cassel is on the sidelines in jumps I'm sure those that stood up for Cassel's play will jump in and make sure they yell loudly how our backups suck so horribly and Cassel is the savior and we should have seen that earlier.

If you're gonna give Cassel a pass week in and week out you have to give Haley a pass too. I'm not a big Haley fan right now either but I'm not calling for his head right now. I really wish he'd realize that he needs to have the OC duties handled by someone and not even get a chance to do anything other than what a HC does. Last year when all he had was HC duties he was a lot better at...well everything really. If Haley wants to handle OC duties then fine, be a OC and not a HC.

2010chiefs
11-14-2011, 11:52 PM
Haley is a failed experiment and it needs to stop asap. How many times do we need to see this team show up COMPLETELY unprepared before people begin to realize it's not ALL on the players? I see so much complaining about Cassel and NOTHING about Haley... it's baffling to me. The guy starts out 0-2 in BLOWOUTS to coaches who use to be with the organization and ultimately goes 0-3. Then, he wins a couple games against 2 of the worst teams in the league and pulls one off against a Raiders team who didn't have a QB and suddenly he's getting a pass!

Losses AT HOME to an 0-7 Miami team and a Denver team with possibly the worst QB in the league who only completed 2 passes is inexcusable. This team is NEVER prepared. It showed in preseason and the first 3 games of the season and has now reared its head again these past 2 weeks.

I saw nothing but excuses for this team for the Miami loss. Almost EVERY team has to play on Monday night!! That's no excuse for getting blown the #uck out by an 0-7 team at home. Guess what, it's about to happen again against a better Pittsburgh team after the monday night game at New England.

What kills me is that now with Cassel having surgery on his hand, there's going to be all this BS defense of Haley that he's lost so many of his starters to injury. It doesn't matter who he's lost. The fact that the Chiefs can't be competitive has nothing to do with losing starters. Yeah, you may lose games because of that, but not being at least competitive and prepared week in and week out lays squarely on the head coach. If you can't figure out that Denver is going to run the ball and do something to prevent it, THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!!

It's painfully obvious that the Chiefs can't circle any one game on their remaining schedule and say, "we have a GOOD chance to win this game." In fact, you probably saw the Chiefs last win 2 weeks ago against San Diego.

Todd Haley is 3 years into his tenure here in Kansas City... he owns this. There's no more passing the buck off onto the previous regime. It's YOUR fault this team isn't prepared to compete. It's YOUR fault the offense isn't performing under your leadership. No magical beard is going to hide the fact that you are NOT a head coach. When your QB is yelling at you on the sideline that, "you don't know what the #uck you're talking about," it's probably not a good sign.

The failure isn't all on Haley. It lies on Pioli that he can't recognize how epically Haley has failed at his job. Again, this isn't about losing... this is about the manner in which this team is losing. There's no excuse for the way this team has performed since preseason and I hope that while getting completely disemboweled over the next 5 weeks, Todd Haley gets exposed for the fraud of a head coach that he truly is.

Go back to coaching golf. I hear Tiger needs some help.

^^^^^^^^ABSOLUTLEY AGREE ^^^^^^^^

tornadospotter
11-15-2011, 12:09 AM
We, or I give rookie players 4 seasons to prove up, are you a NFL Player, and are you a Chief! Same should be for the Coaching staff. I not against or for the current Coaching staff. That is what Clark and Scott need to be evaluating.

texaschief
11-15-2011, 03:49 AM
2 of those players that just happened to get hurt were top 100 players in the league... Not only that but they are PLAYMAKERS and GAME BREAKERS.... Those guys are special.... And thats not easy to replace.. And the 3rd was coming off a great rookie season. So yeah, IMO, those excuses count and when they did happen i knew we were in for a toilet bowl of a season and you gotta be kiddin me if you didn't think the same.... I'm not trying to say that haley is god but you should look at the whole situation... Take into consideration all the turnover on the offensive coaching too.... (common theme in the Haley era... wouldn't you say? We had THE EXACT SAME TURNOVER last season... not an excuse.)

Those players undoubtedly can make a difference in a win or loss. However, the team is failing on a total scale. Those 3 players wouldn't have made the difference in any of the losses the Chiefs had this season except for this past Sunday. It takes a team effort to win games in the NFL... not just a couple players. The Chiefs as a whole aren't competitive enough for those 3 players to have been the difference makers... THAT'S the problem. If the Chiefs were at THE VERY LEAST competitive and showed competency during these losses, then yeah, I'd back off Haley a little.

This is catastrophic failure. These are not borderline losses. What makes it look even worse is that the team doesn't look like it has given up. The defense especially looks like they're flying around and trying to make plays. I'm not so much worried about the defense as I am about the absolute failure of the offense and the overall approach by the team each week. Every loss they've taken this year, the team looks like it's taken completely off guard by what they're seeing. The game planning is atrocious and the team looks completely despondent.


Yes, a horrible Miami team that won again this weekend.

(...against a horrible Washington team)

Also a horrible Denver team that now has the same record as us.

(the team isn't horrible... the QB is horrible. read carefully now... and saying that Denver has the same record as the Chiefs as if that helps your argument is comical since I'm saying the Chiefs are a horrible team. Just because Denver has the same record as a team they just beat doesn't make them a good team. lol Also, don't forget they lost their first two RBs as well.)

I didn't hear to much complaining from you when Haley was coaching the Chiefs to division champs.

(Well, again, that's because you weren't reading carefully enough. Ask anyone here and they'll tell you I've been against Haley since he was hired. Last year was fool's gold and looks like you fell for it. It's amazing what a last place schedule will do for ya.)

Now that Cassel is on the sidelines in jumps I'm sure those that stood up for Cassel's play will jump in and make sure they yell loudly how our backups suck so horribly and Cassel is the savior and we should have seen that earlier.

(I doubt that. Cassel was fools gold as well.)

If you're gonna give Cassel a pass week in and week out you have to give Haley a pass too. I'm not a big Haley fan right now either but I'm not calling for his head right now. I really wish he'd realize that he needs to have the OC duties handled by someone and not even get a chance to do anything other than what a HC does. Last year when all he had was HC duties he was a lot better at...well everything really. If Haley wants to handle OC duties then fine, be a OC and not a HC.

(I haven't given a Cassel a pass since his first season. He's nothing but a career backup. He's not the future for the Chiefs and is just another failure by the general manager. However, good point on Haley. It's exactly the same thing that I've been saying since he was hired. In fact, I praised him for bringing in Weiss last year. But in another epic failure on his part, he can't keep good coaches around him to help out on the offensive side. Weiss wanted away from Haley so bad, he left his buddies Pioli and Crennel to go coach with a staff he has no relationship with.

If you think this is the first time I've brought this argument up, go put my name in the database and you'll see all my posts about dear leader. There's a common theme, I promise. Haley's failure as a head coach began immediately after he was hired and blunder after blunder after blunder have gone by with excuse after excuse. He's 3 years in and STILL failing on a massive level. This Chiefs team finally has the talent to expect a competitive team on the field week in and week out no matter WHO is hurt. The Chiefs only have one player missing from their defense. There's no reason why they shouldn't be playing at a top 10 level like they were last season.

The offense under Haley is micromanaged and without direction. There's NO EXCUSE for the play to run through 3 headsets before it gets to the QB. Absolutely pathetic! The position is too big for Haley and he should go back to either position coaching or asst. OC. He's not ready to lead a football team and it's painfully obvious to anyone with any football sense... which is making me start to wonder about Pioli.)

:bananen_smilies046:

lovenflrefs1
11-15-2011, 04:21 AM
I agree with TexasChief in this situation. However, I have not liked Cassel since he signed with the Chiefs, and the same goes for Haley. I don't like the fact that you throw all this money at a former back-up QB that shined because he was playing on a GREAT team; that New England team was a complete team and would have won another Super Bowl if we hadn't of hurt Brady. Ironically enough, we wouldn't even be discussing this issue if that had not of happened.

As it has been proven with other coordinators, you can't just expect them to be able to be a head coach. Look at Gunther Cunningham: great defensive coordinator, whom they give the head coaching job too, which he failed at, and then they let him go, but later hired him again, and yet fired him AGAIN a few years later. If they want the Chiefs to succeed in the future, I suggest demoting Haley back to what he does best: coaching offense only. Pioli is competent enough to go out and find a good head coach, that is actually experienced, and I think that's what they need to do.

Yes, losing top tier players hurts, but you can blame that on the players and the NFL because of the lockout.

texaschief
11-15-2011, 05:13 AM
There should be an obvious direction... even to the average fan, in which direction the team is being directed...

Look at the good/great teams of this past decade. You KNOW what the team philosophy is. You KNOW what direction they are going with their team. You KNOW what the culture is and the leadership is absolute. With the Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, etc, you know that if their team can execute "X, Y, and Z," that they've got a pretty good shot at winning that night. You KNOW who their play makers are and who leads that team.

Does ANYONE know what the Kansas City Chiefs are? We almost established some kind of identity last season with a running game... but that's all shot now for whatever reason. It's not like the Chiefs are void of talent in the backfield with Thomas, Battle, and McClain back there. They can still be a power running team. This team is absolutely void of direction and leadership. PERIOD.

It amazes me that more people don't have the same feeling that I have about this team.

azchiefsfan
11-15-2011, 11:15 AM
Nice attempt to spin the issue OPlkn. No one has given Cassel a pass, because he hasn't needed a pass. He has had some bad games, but they have been few. You and others like you love to blame him because the line collapses and runners run into a brick wall at the line and because receivers drop good passes. Basically, you guys are so blind to the game that you can only focus on the one guy who, despite a terrible team around him, has done some great things, like get us to the playoffs. No one with any objectivity and basic knowledge of football could look at this team and say Cassel was the problem.

Three7s
11-15-2011, 11:52 AM
You say it takes a team effort? Tell that to the Colts. They can't win a game without Peyton Manning.

azchiefsfan
11-15-2011, 11:55 AM
Yeah, Peyton was out there playing linebacker and safety wasn't he? MYOPIC...look it up, because you are a living definition.

OPLookn
11-15-2011, 12:09 PM
Nice attempt to spin the issue OPlkn. No one has given Cassel a pass, because he hasn't needed a pass. He has had some bad games, but they have been few. You and others like you love to blame him because the line collapses and runners run into a brick wall at the line and because receivers drop good passes. Basically, you guys are so blind to the game that you can only focus on the one guy who, despite a terrible team around him, has done some great things, like get us to the playoffs. No one with any objectivity and basic knowledge of football could look at this team and say Cassel was the problem.

No I'm focusing on Cassel because he's the most visible player in the organization and he's on an offense that isn't doing a good job right now. So yeah, I complain about him the most when short of a wild cat or some other gimmick play he touches the ball every single time.

There wasn't a spin to the issue, I told the truth and there's really not a way to spin a fact. If you give Cassel a pass you have to give Haley a pass too. You wanna stand up for Cassel because he's the savior of the team just as soon as we get the other best 10 players in the NFL around him, I get it. On another note love the passive aggressive on how you try to belittle my football IQ as if my opinion means less than yours.

azchiefsfan
11-15-2011, 12:13 PM
No I'm focusing on Cassel because he's the most visible player in the organization and he's on an offense that isn't doing a good job right now. So yeah, I complain about him the most when short of a wild cat or some other gimmick play he touches the ball every single time.

There wasn't a spin to the issue, I told the truth and there's really not a way to spin a fact. If you give Cassel a pass you have to give Haley a pass too. You wanna stand up for Cassel because he's the savior of the team just as soon as we get the other best 10 players in the NFL around him, I get it. On another note love the passive aggressive on how you try to belittle my football IQ as if my opinion means less than yours.

Oh yes, it's your opinion, therefore it is a fact. No spin there either. I will quit with you before I get banned. You, Sir, are a know-nothing "fan".

OPLookn
11-15-2011, 12:17 PM
OPLookn:Also a horrible Denver team that now has the same record as us.

texaschief:(the team isn't horrible... the QB is horrible. read carefully now... and saying that Denver has the same record as the Chiefs as if that helps your argument is comical since I'm saying the Chiefs are a horrible team. Just because Denver has the same record as a team they just beat doesn't make them a good team. lol Also, don't forget they lost their first two RBs as well.)

You say Denver isn't horrible, the Chiefs are horrible but then me saying that Denver and the Chiefs having the same record doesn't mean anything. These three statements can't live in a logical world. If a team is judged by their W/L record one team can't be horrible and the other not.

Otherwise as far as the rest of your statements/conclusions go I'll admit it you're right. Just thought that one little part was humorous since one team isn't horrible the other is but they both have the same record that everyone judges them on.

And you're right, last season may have been fools gold but I was hoping for more fools gold this year. Kinda starting to look like my home value!

:lol:

texaschief
11-15-2011, 03:10 PM
You say Denver isn't horrible, the Chiefs are horrible but then me saying that Denver and the Chiefs having the same record doesn't mean anything. These three statements can't live in a logical world. If a team is judged by their W/L record one team can't be horrible and the other not.

Otherwise as far as the rest of your statements/conclusions go I'll admit it you're right. Just thought that one little part was humorous since one team isn't horrible the other is but they both have the same record that everyone judges them on.

And you're right, last season may have been fools gold but I was hoping for more fools gold this year. Kinda starting to look like my home value!

:lol:

Just because Denver isn't a good team, doesn't automatically make them "horrible." The QB is the worst in the NFL BY FAR. But, their defense played lights out this past week and has the talent to do some great things in the future. All in all, I'd say their below average, but not "horrible" as a whole. The Chiefs ARE a horrible team as a whole. Their records are passing ships in my opinion.

If you can take a step back and look at each facet of the game, look at the teams they beat, and situations their opponents were in during those wins, you'll see a distinct difference between the Denver Broncos and the Kansas City Chiefs. I will be absolutely flabbergasted if the Chiefs don't end in last place in the division this season.

There needs to be a focus on individual aspects of each game if you're going to critique. You (when I say "you," I'm not singling any particular chiefs crowd member out) need to be able to evaluate each facet, player, and coach individually. What happened during each play and during each game that each individual could control? What decisions did they make during the play/game that positively or negatively impacted the game? What was their performance given each situation? There's a breakdown that needs to occur during each play, series, and game if you're going to correctly evaluate a player, unit, or coach.

In my opinion, the best time to evaluate is when a team is winning. What is happening right and how is each player performing under these relatively easy situations?

After watching Matt Cassel in a winning situation in New England and again last year, he just hasn't done enough to warrant being "the guy" in Kansas City for the foreseeable future. He lost me as even a patient "wait and see what happens" supporter last season during a winning season against a last place schedule. For my money, Matt Cassel isn't a franchise leading QB. He's just not. He's a good backup to have, but nothing more. He's Elvis Grbac... not Rich Gannon. Even when he's given time, he's too inconsistent and doesn't give the team the best chance to win in the long-term.

Until the Chiefs find an answer at the QB position, their hopes to make a deep run in the playoffs remain slim... whether the rest of the roster is healthy or not. To consistently make the playoffs in the NFL, you need a top 10 QB. It's pretty easy to name 10 QBs better than Matt Cassel. In no particular order:

1. Rogers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. Ryan
5. Stafford
6. Flacco
7. Roethlisberger
8. Manning
9. Manning
10. Shaub
11. Rivers
12. Newton
13. Romo
14. Vick
15. Freeman
16. Bradford
17. Dalton

You can't honestly say you would take Matt Cassel over any of these QBs... and that's the problem. Not included on this list are rookies like Locker, Mallett, Gabbert, Kaepernick, Stanzi or incoming QBs like Luck, Barkley, Jones, Griffin, or Tannehill.

Add these names and look at this list as if you had a choice of any QB to build your team around for the next 5-10 years.

1. Rogers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. Ryan
5. Stafford
6. Flacco
7. Roethlisberger
8. Manning
9. Manning
10. Shaub
11. Rivers
12. Newton
13. Romo
14. Vick
15. Freeman
16. Bradford
17. Dalton
18. Locker
19. Mallett
20. Gabbert
21. Kaepernick
22. Stanzi
23. Luck
24. Barkley
25. Jones
26. Griffin
27. Tannehill

Now, tell me who on this list would you pick Matt Cassel over?

Stanzi? Tannehill? Romo? Griffin? Even if you picked Cassel over that many guys, he's still in the bottom 8 QBs in the league and your goal is to find a top 10 guy. This, to me, is the BIGGEST issue with Matt Cassel at QB. It's not his limited upside or the talent (or lack thereof) around him, it's the fact that he's NOT a top 10 QB that you can rely on to get you to the playoffs year in and year out. PERIOD.

The same goes for Todd Haley. He did a real good job of losing me as a neutral observer even before he coached his first game. The positives that he has brought to the team don't come close to balancing out the negatives and he has had ample opportunity over 3 seasons. Being a head coach in the NFL isn't easy and I'm not going to act like I know what it takes day in and day out. I can appreciate the work he has put into the job, but it doesn't take someone with a doctorate in NFL management to understand and recognize that he hasn't been a successful head coach and that his team preparation overall is lacking in a BIG way EVERY SINGLE WEEK... even in wins.

I remain completely unimpressed with the new regime since they took over 3 offseasons ago. I loved the last draft class but HATED the first and was perfectly neutral on the second. There wasn't one player I liked in the '09 draft. I hated the Arenas and Moeaki picks (Arenas because there were more pressing issues than nickel CB and Moeaki for the same reason AND his injury laden past). In '12 I would LOVE to see a QB, NT, and ILB taken along with some OL help in free agency... not to mention a new head coach.

If you stuck around and read this entire thing, thank you for your time. I'm done wasting your time now. lol

texaschief
11-15-2011, 03:15 PM
You say it takes a team effort? Tell that to the Colts. They can't win a game without Peyton Manning.

There's an exception to every rule.

azchiefsfan
11-15-2011, 03:33 PM
I'd take Matt Cassel over these guys:

4. Ryan
5. Stafford
6. Flacco
7. Roethlisberger
8. Manning
9. Manning
10. Shaub
11. Rivers
12. Newton
13. Romo
14. Vick
15. Freeman
16. Bradford
17. Dalton

OPLookn
11-15-2011, 03:38 PM
Just because Denver isn't a good team, doesn't automatically make them "horrible." The QB is the worst in the NFL BY FAR. But, their defense played lights out this past week and has the talent to do some great things in the future. All in all, I'd say their below average, but not "horrible" as a whole. The Chiefs ARE a horrible team as a whole. Their records are passing ships in my opinion.

If you can take a step back and look at each facet of the game, look at the teams they beat, and situations their opponents were in during those wins, you'll see a distinct difference between the Denver Broncos and the Kansas City Chiefs. I will be absolutely flabbergasted if the Chiefs don't end in last place in the division this season.

There needs to be a focus on individual aspects of each game if you're going to critique. You (when I say "you," I'm not singling any particular chiefs crowd member out) need to be able to evaluate each facet, player, and coach individually. What happened during each play and during each game that each individual could control? What decisions did they make during the play/game that positively or negatively impacted the game? What was their performance given each situation? There's a breakdown that needs to occur during each play, series, and game if you're going to correctly evaluate a player, unit, or coach.

In my opinion, the best time to evaluate is when a team is winning. What is happening right and how is each player performing under these relatively easy situations?

After watching Matt Cassel in a winning situation in New England and again last year, he just hasn't done enough to warrant being "the guy" in Kansas City for the foreseeable future. He lost me as even a patient "wait and see what happens" supporter last season during a winning season against a last place schedule. For my money, Matt Cassel isn't a franchise leading QB. He's just not. He's a good backup to have, but nothing more. He's Elvis Grbac... not Rich Gannon. Even when he's given time, he's too inconsistent and doesn't give the team the best chance to win in the long-term.

Until the Chiefs find an answer at the QB position, their hopes to make a deep run in the playoffs remain slim... whether the rest of the roster is healthy or not. To consistently make the playoffs in the NFL, you need a top 10 QB. It's pretty easy to name 10 QBs better than Matt Cassel. In no particular order:

1. Rogers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. Ryan
5. Stafford
6. Flacco
7. Roethlisberger
8. Manning
9. Manning
10. Shaub
11. Rivers
12. Newton
13. Romo
14. Vick
15. Freeman
16. Bradford
17. Dalton

You can't honestly say you would take Matt Cassel over any of these QBs... and that's the problem. Not included on this list are rookies like Locker, Mallett, Gabbert, Kaepernick, Stanzi or incoming QBs like Luck, Barkley, Jones, Griffin, or Tannehill.

Add these names and look at this list as if you had a choice of any QB to build your team around for the next 5-10 years.

1. Rogers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. Ryan
5. Stafford
6. Flacco
7. Roethlisberger
8. Manning
9. Manning
10. Shaub
11. Rivers
12. Newton
13. Romo
14. Vick
15. Freeman
16. Bradford
17. Dalton
18. Locker
19. Mallett
20. Gabbert
21. Kaepernick
22. Stanzi
23. Luck
24. Barkley
25. Jones
26. Griffin
27. Tannehill

Now, tell me who on this list would you pick Matt Cassel over?

Stanzi? Tannehill? Romo? Griffin? Even if you picked Cassel over that many guys, he's still in the bottom 8 QBs in the league and your goal is to find a top 10 guy. This, to me, is the BIGGEST issue with Matt Cassel at QB. It's not his limited upside or the talent (or lack thereof) around him, it's the fact that he's NOT a top 10 QB that you can rely on to get you to the playoffs year in and year out. PERIOD.

The same goes for Todd Haley. He did a real good job of losing me as a neutral observer even before he coached his first game. The positives that he has brought to the team don't come close to balancing out the negatives and he has had ample opportunity over 3 seasons. Being a head coach in the NFL isn't easy and I'm not going to act like I know what it takes day in and day out. I can appreciate the work he has put into the job, but it doesn't take someone with a doctorate in NFL management to understand and recognize that he hasn't been a successful head coach and that his team preparation overall is lacking in a BIG way EVERY SINGLE WEEK... even in wins.

I remain completely unimpressed with the new regime since they took over 3 offseasons ago. I loved the last draft class but HATED the first and was perfectly neutral on the second. There wasn't one player I liked in the '09 draft. I hated the Arenas and Moeaki picks (Arenas because there were more pressing issues than nickel CB and Moeaki for the same reason AND his injury laden past). In '12 I would LOVE to see a QB, NT, and ILB taken along with some OL help in free agency... not to mention a new head coach.

If you stuck around and read this entire thing, thank you for your time. I'm done wasting your time now. lol

Read the whole thing and it seemed like a very well thought out and written post. I have to waver on a few of the QB's once you throw in this years draft but your point overall still remains extremely valid.

To me Arenas wasn't a bad pick, he hasn't excelled but he hasn't caused a lot of pain. The Moeaki pick again, didn't hate it, didn't love it. To me if we get 3 or 4 more seasons out of Moeaki it was a good pick. Especially since most NFL players only play 3 years.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 2012 one of the years that teams have to spend in the high 90% range of their caps? If so we have a lot of room to bring people in.

As for Haley I haven't seen him blowing up on guys the way he did the first year. Yeah he got after Cassel the one game but nothing remotely close to his first year. He seems very resigned to the point of it almost being like he knows he's done after this year. I don't like the thought of blowing things up again but if it needs to happen to be great instead of mediocre then so be it.

texaschief
11-15-2011, 03:41 PM
I'd take Matt Cassel over these guys:

4. Ryan
5. Stafford
6. Flacco
7. Roethlisberger
8. Manning
9. Manning
10. Shaub
11. Rivers
12. Newton
13. Romo
14. Vick
15. Freeman
16. Bradford
17. Dalton

If this is true, this post should be an indictment on your credibility on any further discussions you weigh in on. Your bias is obviously clouding your judgement or haven't truly watched any other team/QB outside of those playing for the Chiefs.

To judge yourself fairly, find a neutral observer. Someone who isn't a fan of either team and ask whether they would have Cassel or ANY of those QBs you mentioned, head to head. See what your results come back like.

texaschief
11-15-2011, 03:46 PM
Read the whole thing and it seemed like a very well thought out and written post. I have to waver on a few of the QB's once you throw in this years draft but your point overall still remains extremely valid.

To me Arenas wasn't a bad pick, he hasn't excelled but he hasn't caused a lot of pain. The Moeaki pick again, didn't hate it, didn't love it. To me if we get 3 or 4 more seasons out of Moeaki it was a good pick. Especially since most NFL players only play 3 years.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 2012 one of the years that teams have to spend in the high 90% range of their caps? If so we have a lot of room to bring people in.

As for Haley I haven't seen him blowing up on guys the way he did the first year. Yeah he got after Cassel the one game but nothing remotely close to his first year. He seems very resigned to the point of it almost being like he knows he's done after this year. I don't like the thought of blowing things up again but if it needs to happen to be great instead of mediocre then so be it.

The Arenas and Moeaki picks aren't poor picks because of who the athlete is. They are poor picks because of the value they bring to the team at that particular pick. If Arenas had been taken in the 4th round or later, I would have loved the pick. Same with Moeaki if he had been taken later. I just believe there were much more valuable players available to the Chiefs when they decided to select their nickel CB. I would've liked to see some OL help before a NCB.
I don't believe things need to be blown up. I think Pioli should be given at least 7 more seasons before completely blowing things up again. Todd Haley can go NOW.

OPLookn
11-15-2011, 04:54 PM
The Arenas and Moeaki picks aren't poor picks because of who the athlete is. They are poor picks because of the value they bring to the team at that particular pick. If Arenas had been taken in the 4th round or later, I would have loved the pick. Same with Moeaki if he had been taken later. I just believe there were much more valuable players available to the Chiefs when they decided to select their nickel CB. I would've liked to see some OL help before a NCB.
I don't believe things need to be blown up. I think Pioli should be given at least 7 more seasons before completely blowing things up again. Todd Haley can go NOW.

I'm not ready to get rid of Pioli yet. I think he needs to realize that the Cassel/Haley experiment is over and move on.

Got a scenario based on where you had us picking in the draft. What do you think of doing what needs to be done to get Kalil (left OT) from USC and putting Albert in at the RT. Then this year we put Hudson in at C to give us Gaither, Lilja, Hudson, Asamoah, Albert. This'll give them some time to gel and then next year when Kalil comes in we have Kalil, Lilja, Hudson, Asamoah and Albert for our line. Moeaki is back and we have Bowe, Baldwin and Breaston for our receivers. Charles is back with Battle to back him up and McClain to step in when both are tired. QB...that's where I find myself failing to answer the question. Do we keep Cassel, throw Stanzi in? That's the only part that I question.

Defensive side, Berry is back, Siler is back, and we can draft a few more D-Line guys for depth.

My main question is which is the most important? QB, NT or LOT?

matthewschiefs
11-15-2011, 05:06 PM
No I'm focusing on Cassel because he's the most visible player in the organization and he's on an offense that isn't doing a good job right now. So yeah, I complain about him the most when short of a wild cat or some other gimmick play he touches the ball every single time.

There wasn't a spin to the issue, I told the truth and there's really not a way to spin a fact. If you give Cassel a pass you have to give Haley a pass too. You wanna stand up for Cassel because he's the savior of the team just as soon as we get the other best 10 players in the NFL around him, I get it. On another note love the passive aggressive on how you try to belittle my football IQ as if my opinion means less than yours.


With the way this team has looked I think we need to put more of the heat on Haley then any one player. This team should not have been blown out at home to the WINLESS at the time Dolphins. DO you really think the Dolphins are 31-3 better then the Chiefs? Do you really think that a 3rd string player from Denver is good enough to run all over our Defense? Or that Tim Tebow is?

The Job of the head coach is to have his team ready to play make adjustments as the game goes along and put his players in a spot where they will have the best chance to win. Buffalo they clearly were not ready to play. Detroit the same Miami the same. Theres really no shame in losing one At the chargers in a hard fault game. That one can slide. Miami Team was clearly not ready to play. Denver the team let a 3rd string guy run all over us when they CLEARLY could not throw the football. That's something that while it does fall some on the players it's also falls on the coaching staff for not being able adjustments to stop them. Can I say that Cassel is doing his job no I can't But I also can't say that Haley is doing his job to allow Cassel to play at his best. Would I mind seeing Palko in there if he plays well when Cassel is healthy No. But IMO Haley should get more heat then any player on this team. If the Head coach is not doing his job witch right now I don't think he is it's hard for the players to be at there best.

texaschief
11-15-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm not ready to get rid of Pioli yet. I think he needs to realize that the Cassel/Haley experiment is over and move on.

Got a scenario based on where you had us picking in the draft. What do you think of doing what needs to be done to get Kalil (left OT) from USC and putting Albert in at the RT. Then this year we put Hudson in at C to give us Gaither, Lilja, Hudson, Asamoah, Albert. This'll give them some time to gel and then next year when Kalil comes in we have Kalil, Lilja, Hudson, Asamoah and Albert for our line. Moeaki is back and we have Bowe, Baldwin and Breaston for our receivers. Charles is back with Battle to back him up and McClain to step in when both are tired. QB...that's where I find myself failing to answer the question. Do we keep Cassel, throw Stanzi in? That's the only part that I question.

Defensive side, Berry is back, Siler is back, and we can draft a few more D-Line guys for depth.

My main question is which is the most important? QB, NT or LOT?

The problem with going after Kalil is that he's probably going to be taken by the Rams. Assuming my predictions end up exactly how I said (small chance lol), you're going to have to trade ahead of them to grab him. Which means, you're going to have to hope Cleveland doesn't want one of the top 3 QBs because I've got Indy taking Luck, Sea taking Barkley, and Cleveland ready to take Jones. IF they don't want Jones, the deal could be done. But if they have to fall behind Washington, who also has their eye on a new QB, the deal probably can't be done. Jonathan Martin of Stanford would probably be the next best LT in the draft but I'm not sure he's an obvious upgrade over Albert with 4 years of NFL experience.

The obvious answer would then be the RT Reiff out of Iowa where Pioli's buddy and future head coach candidate Kirk Ferentz now coaches. But, that's assuming you want to spend a high first round pick on a RT. I think the better bet would be to find one in free agency.

BUT!!!! Let's take your scenario and run with it. Let's say the Chiefs see a chance to land Kalil in the draft. If they decide they want to go all out and land him no matter what the cost, then a commitment to O-line is needed. If the idea is to have a new LT next season NO MATTER WHAT, then yes. I'd move Branden Albert to RT immediately. Because you would basically be starting over with your O-line, I'd leave Palko in at QB for the rest of the season. Albert, your best OLineman, would once again be protecting your QB's blind side because Palko is a left-handed QB. This takes the pressure off Gaither on the left side.

But, if you take this approach, you won't be able to draft a new franchise QB because you have spent the pick on a LT. But now, with a left-handed QB, spending a top 3 pick on a left tackle is a little redundant because all that talent won't be protecting the blind-side anymore and you've put Albert in an unfamiliar position with the same responsibilities. To me, it's the chicken or the egg. Personally, I'm not one that thinks Albert is a below average LT. I think he's a top 10 LT, actually. This whole "move Albert to OG/RT" B.S. is just that... B.S.

I think the best utilization of a top 5/6 pick would be to draft one of the top 3 QBs if they're available. Otherwise, trade down and address other needs like your O-line, NT, or ILB. Personally, I've been screaming for a NT since Pioli was hired and he hasn't done much to address the position. Alameda Ta'amu from Washington is the only NT in the draft worth taking in the first round... and he's a late first rounder at that. So, I'd try and see if I could trade up from my second round position to get him instead of trading all the way down from the 6th spot.

I would like a scenario in which we traded down to the 12th or 13th pick to get Birfect and then used the compensation we got for #6 to trade back into the first to pick up Ta'amu. Then, pick up a RT in the late 2nd or 3rd if you can't get one in free agency first.

In this scenario, you commit to Stanzi after he starts against the Jets and see where the 6'4, 230lb QB can take you. You've shored up your LB corp, you've upgraded your Dline, and begun a total youth movement on your Oline that will be together for a long while to come with Albert, Asomoah, Hudson, Lilja, and FA/3 rd. Add to that Charles, Moeaki, and Berry coming back from injury and you've got a decent team to put around your rookie QB... not to mention any other free agents that may be signed.

That's my initial thoughts on the '12 season. Things will probably change drastically by the time we get to the draft next April... but I doubt it. lol

Canada
11-15-2011, 05:54 PM
I agree Tex. U could blame losses on injuries, but we have not even been in games. Blowouts are getting ridiculous. Something needs to change!!

Three7s
11-15-2011, 06:42 PM
I'd take Matt Cassel over these guys:

4. Ryan
5. Stafford
6. Flacco
7. Roethlisberger
8. Manning
9. Manning
10. Shaub
11. Rivers
12. Newton
13. Romo
14. Vick
15. Freeman
16. Bradford
17. Dalton
Then you're blind.

Also, the Colts have a pretty similar roster this year as they did last year. So, what's the problem there?

azchiefsfan
11-15-2011, 06:50 PM
If this is true, this post should be an indictment on your credibility on any further discussions you weigh in on. Your bias is obviously clouding your judgement or haven't truly watched any other team/QB outside of those playing for the Chiefs.

To judge yourself fairly, find a neutral observer. Someone who isn't a fan of either team and ask whether they would have Cassel or ANY of those QBs you mentioned, head to head. See what your results come back like.

When we were fairly healthy last year, even though we were a run-first offense, Cassel was rated higher than all but 4 of those guys on that list. Your judgement sucks and needs questioned. The facts certainly don't support your uninformed opinion.

azchiefsfan
11-15-2011, 06:52 PM
You could put any one of those guys on this team and they wouldn't do any better, maybe Rodgers and Brady, but otherwise no.

azchiefsfan
11-15-2011, 07:38 PM
I went and checked, Cassel was rated higher than all but 5 of those guys on my list.

chief31
11-15-2011, 08:02 PM
Go back to coaching golf. I hear Tiger needs some help.

While I am not Haley's biggest supporter, and do place a whole lot of the blame for the four horrible outings this team has managed this season, Haley has done so much more with this team than Herm ever did, and I really am not too terribly dissapointed in the season, at this point.

I expected little, and am getting it. Actually gotten more than I expected, so far.


No I'm focusing on Cassel because he's the most visible player in the organization and he's on an offense that isn't doing a good job right now. So yeah, I complain about him the most when short of a wild cat or some other gimmick play he touches the ball every single time.

There wasn't a spin to the issue, I told the truth and there's really not a way to spin a fact. If you give Cassel a pass you have to give Haley a pass too. You wanna stand up for Cassel because he's the savior of the team just as soon as we get the other best 10 players in the NFL around him, I get it. On another note love the passive aggressive on how you try to belittle my football IQ as if my opinion means less than yours.

Well, you have singled yourself out as being hypocritical, haven't you?

I mean "If you give Cassel a pass you have to give Haley a pass too." yet you offer a pass for Haley, and not for Cassel.

And it isn't that Cassel needs to have the ten best players around him, nor that he is"the savior".

It's that he needs better than the absolute garbage that he has had to deal with of late.

And I know that you have seen how terrible the players around him have been. Dropping countless third down passes, penalties forcing 2nd and 20, only to see two running plays called from there, and pass protection that would make The Chicago Bears' O-line feel like starting their lobbying for The HoF.

I hope Palko does better. I have liked what I have seen of him during the past two preseasons. But I don't see how he can do any better, unless the rest of the offense does so.

You focus on the QB because he is the most visible player on the offense.... Unfortunately, that has a tendency to leave you blind to the offense, just like ff fans.

And, when you acknowledge that, your opinion really is less valuable than someone who specifically looks at the whole offense.

That's not to be insulting. It's just a reality that, if you focus on the QB, thus paying less attention to the other eleven guys on the field, you have to understand that your opinion is jaded.

Hayvern
11-15-2011, 09:03 PM
While I am not Haley's biggest supporter, and do place a whole lot of the blame for the four horrible outings this team has managed this season, Haley has done so much more with this team than Herm ever did, and I really am not too terribly dissapointed in the season, at this point.

I expected little, and am getting it. Actually gotten more than I expected, so far.



Well, you have singled yourself out as being hypocritical, haven't you?

I mean "If you give Cassel a pass you have to give Haley a pass too." yet you offer a pass for Haley, and not for Cassel.

And it isn't that Cassel needs to have the ten best players around him, nor that he is"the savior".

It's that he needs better than the absolute garbage that he has had to deal with of late.

And I know that you have seen how terrible the players around him have been. Dropping countless third down passes, penalties forcing 2nd and 20, only to see two running plays called from there, and pass protection that would make The Chicago Bears' O-line feel like starting their lobbying for The HoF.

I hope Palko does better. I have liked what I have seen of him during the past two preseasons. But I don't see how he can do any better, unless the rest of the offense does so.

You focus on the QB because he is the most visible player on the offense.... Unfortunately, that has a tendency to leave you blind to the offense, just like ff fans.

And, when you acknowledge that, your opinion really is less valuable than someone who specifically looks at the whole offense.

That's not to be insulting. It's just a reality that, if you focus on the QB, thus paying less attention to the other eleven guys on the field, you have to understand that your opinion is jaded.

HEre's the thing about coaching for this team. They have too many indians trying to call plays. Cassel is confused half the time, delay of game penalties, time-outs and other issues. The early part of this year we saw a lot of issues with the coaching staff getting plays in from the sidelines.

This is not meant to give Cassel a pass, far from it, a better quarterback could be trusted to call his own plays in those situations, I bet Rodgers does and certainly we know that both Manning brothers do. But because Cassel is not that good, he is not allowed to make those calls.

Right now, there is not one part of this team beyond reproach for this horrible season, but if I had to pick one side of the ball, then offense is clearly struggling the most, and a large part of that is coming from the playcalling that is happening.

I have never really been a huge Haley supporter, I tolerated him last season because he was winning, but he made plenty of dumb decisions. This year, I think most of the failure on offense falls squarely on his shoulders, the problems they are having with getting calls in from the sidelines is clearly something he should have worked out as the ultimate leader on this team.

matthewschiefs
11-15-2011, 09:26 PM
HEre's the thing about coaching for this team. They have too many indians trying to call plays. Cassel is confused half the time, delay of game penalties, time-outs and other issues. The early part of this year we saw a lot of issues with the coaching staff getting plays in from the sidelines.

This is not meant to give Cassel a pass, far from it, a better quarterback could be trusted to call his own plays in those situations, I bet Rodgers does and certainly we know that both Manning brothers do. But because Cassel is not that good, he is not allowed to make those calls.

Right now, there is not one part of this team beyond reproach for this horrible season, but if I had to pick one side of the ball, then offense is clearly struggling the most, and a large part of that is coming from the playcalling that is happening.

I have never really been a huge Haley supporter, I tolerated him last season because he was winning, but he made plenty of dumb decisions. This year, I think most of the failure on offense falls squarely on his shoulders, the problems they are having with getting calls in from the sidelines is clearly something he should have worked out as the ultimate leader on this team.

I agree. The offense is not being put in a spot to do well. Matt Cassel has taken a lot of blame for that and he should get some. He's a part of it. But if the coaching doesn't get better then Palko and Stanzi will both struggle as well.

Haley I questioned when we brought him in. Because he had never been a head coach. In 09 I gave him a pass because NO ONE was going to win with that team. Last year I got high on him because he was a winner. But Coaching is a what have you done for me lately business and lately Haleys not done his job.

2010chiefs
11-15-2011, 10:47 PM
I'd take Matt Cassel over these guys:

4. Ryan
5. Stafford
6. Flacco
7. Roethlisberger
8. Manning
9. Manning
10. Shaub
11. Rivers
12. Newton
13. Romo
14. Vick
15. Freeman
16. Bradford
17. Dalton


YOUR CRAZY! NO WAY!

tornadospotter
11-15-2011, 11:02 PM
HEre's the thing about coaching for this team. They have too many indians trying to call plays. Cassel is confused half the time, delay of game penalties, time-outs and other issues. The early part of this year we saw a lot of issues with the coaching staff getting plays in from the sidelines.

This is not meant to give Cassel a pass, far from it, a better quarterback could be trusted to call his own plays in those situations, I bet Rodgers does and certainly we know that both Manning brothers do. But because Cassel is not that good, he is not allowed to make those calls.

Right now, there is not one part of this team beyond reproach for this horrible season, but if I had to pick one side of the ball, then offense is clearly struggling the most, and a large part of that is coming from the playcalling that is happening.

I have never really been a huge Haley supporter, I tolerated him last season because he was winning, but he made plenty of dumb decisions. This year, I think most of the failure on offense falls squarely on his shoulders, the problems they are having with getting calls in from the sidelines is clearly something he should have worked out as the ultimate leader on this team.
Hammer meet nail. That is an issue that is a problem. Problem that should have been fixed by now.

OPLookn
11-15-2011, 11:26 PM
Well, you have singled yourself out as being hypocritical, haven't you?

I mean "If you give Cassel a pass you have to give Haley a pass too." yet you offer a pass for Haley, and not for Cassel.

And it isn't that Cassel needs to have the ten best players around him, nor that he is"the savior".

It's that he needs better than the absolute garbage that he has had to deal with of late.

And I know that you have seen how terrible the players around him have been. Dropping countless third down passes, penalties forcing 2nd and 20, only to see two running plays called from there, and pass protection that would make The Chicago Bears' O-line feel like starting their lobbying for The HoF.

I hope Palko does better. I have liked what I have seen of him during the past two preseasons. But I don't see how he can do any better, unless the rest of the offense does so.

You focus on the QB because he is the most visible player on the offense.... Unfortunately, that has a tendency to leave you blind to the offense, just like ff fans.

And, when you acknowledge that, your opinion really is less valuable than someone who specifically looks at the whole offense.

That's not to be insulting. It's just a reality that, if you focus on the QB, thus paying less attention to the other eleven guys on the field, you have to understand that your opinion is jaded.



I'm not ready to get rid of Pioli yet. I think he needs to realize that the Cassel/Haley experiment is over and move on.

Where exactly am I giving one a pass but not the other again? So no, really haven't singled myself out for being hypocritical. When you try to call someone out, try reading the rest of the thread or perhaps asking if I wanted Haley gone or not before calling me a hypocrite.

As for looking at the rest of the offense I have and that's why I suggest in this very same thread changes that I thought might be a decent idea. Not to mention that you're seriously going to call Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin and Battle absolute garbage?? Wow, if you don't want them I'll sure take them on my team but that's probably just my "jaded" and "less valuable" opinion showing through there isn't it?

I focus on the QB because as I said and it's the truth he handles the ball the most and in my opinion which IS just as good as yours Cassel isn't the answer.

Ryfo18
11-15-2011, 11:28 PM
I'd take Matt Cassel over these guys:

4. Ryan
5. Stafford
6. Flacco
7. Roethlisberger
8. Manning
9. Manning
10. Shaub
11. Rivers
12. Newton
13. Romo
14. Vick
15. Freeman
16. Bradford
17. Dalton

Are you serious? I can't say I'd rather have any of those quarterbacks over Cassel. You can't be serious.

reded
11-15-2011, 11:47 PM
Are you serious? I can't say I'd rather have any of those quarterbacks over Cassel. You can't be serious.

Are YOU serious? You've got 3 SuperBowl winning QB's on that list and 3 more that have been a lot closer than Cassel will most likely ever get. Sorry folks but I'm gonna take a Roethlisberger and 2 Mannings over a Matt Cassel any day of the week and twice on Sunday when it counts!

OPLookn
11-15-2011, 11:47 PM
Are you serious? I can't say I'd rather have any of those quarterbacks over Cassel. You can't be serious.

Romo I'm on the fence on. Newton I think is more of a flash in the pan and once people figure out what he's about he's done. Rivers I think he's on the decline and the team he's on is getting older so if he stays it'll only get worse. Past that I have to agree I'd rather have any on that list over Cassel.

OPLookn
11-15-2011, 11:50 PM
Are YOU serious? You've got 3 SuperBowl winning QB's on that list and 3 more that have been a lot closer than Cassel will most likely ever get. Sorry folks but I'm gonna take a Roethlisberger and 2 Mannings over a Matt Cassel any day of the week and twice on Sunday when it counts!

I may have it wrong but I think Ryfo wasn't agreeing with azchiefsfan but agreeing with with your statement...well maybe not with specifics though. ;)

Ryfo18
11-15-2011, 11:52 PM
Are you serious? I can't say I'd rather have any of those quarterbacks over Cassel. You can't be serious.


Are YOU serious? You've got 3 SuperBowl winning QB's on that list and 3 more that have been a lot closer than Cassel will most likely ever get. Sorry folks but I'm gonna take a Roethlisberger and 2 Mannings over a Matt Cassel any day of the week and twice on Sunday when it counts!


Romo I'm on the fence on. Newton I think is more of a flash in the pan and once people figure out what he's about he's done. Rivers I think he's on the decline and the team he's on is getting older so if he stays it'll only get worse. Past that I have to agree I'd rather have any on that list over Cassel.

I'm sorry, in my original post I meant: "I WOULD TAKE ANY OF THOSE QUARTERBACKS OVER CASSEL."

I love what Newton is doing. I think he is going to be a great player for years to come.

reded
11-15-2011, 11:53 PM
That sums it up a bit better. Sorry about the confusion but I had to bite on the bait you threw me!

OPLookn
11-15-2011, 11:54 PM
I'm sorry, in my original post I meant: "I WOULD TAKE ANY OF THOSE QUARTERBACKS OVER CASSEL."

I love what Newton is doing. I think he is going to be a great player for years to come.

It'll be interesting to see what he does. Regardless he's shown he was great in college and there's a lot of time left for him to show what he can do in the NFL. If I'm wrong it won't be the first time!

:lol: :bananen_smilies046:

reded
11-15-2011, 11:57 PM
It'll be interesting to see what he does. Regardless he's shown he was great in college and there's a lot of time left for him to show what he can do in the NFL. If I'm wrong it won't be the first time!

:lol: :bananen_smilies046:

I think once Newton gets settled into a role within a good system he could be a very good QB. Unfortunately no one has a crystal ball in this sport, time will tell if he meets expectations.

texaschief
11-16-2011, 01:08 AM
When we were fairly healthy last year, even though we were a run-first offense, Cassel was rated higher than all but 4 of those guys on that list. (against a last place schedule) Your judgement sucks and needs questioned. The facts certainly don't support your uninformed opinion.

As for the rest of your little gem, I'll let the following comments speak for themselves...


YOUR CRAZY! NO WAY!


I'm sorry, in my original post I meant: "I WOULD TAKE ANY OF THOSE QUARTERBACKS OVER CASSEL."

I love what Newton is doing. I think he is going to be a great player for years to come.


Are YOU serious? You've got 3 SuperBowl winning QB's on that list and 3 more that have been a lot closer than Cassel will most likely ever get. Sorry folks but I'm gonna take a Roethlisberger and 2 Mannings over a Matt Cassel any day of the week and twice on Sunday when it counts!


Romo I'm on the fence on. Newton I think is more of a flash in the pan and once people figure out what he's about he's done. Rivers I think he's on the decline and the team he's on is getting older so if he stays it'll only get worse. Past that I have to agree I'd rather have any on that list over Cassel.

There are a few things you can call me... "uninformed" isn't one of them. Nice try though.

jap1
11-16-2011, 04:34 AM
For the most part I agree with a lot of what Tex has been saying. A few things I dont agree with, though.

First, I am not quite ready yet to hang Haley from the gallows. Granted a lot of that is due to what he has done in the PAST with this team. I like that his priorities as head coach are discipline and conditioning. As someone who has played or coached football for 20 years, those are the two most important things in football. If you have a disciplined and well conditioned team, then you SHOULD have a team that is always competitive (they wont give up big plays and will still be fresh in the 2nd half when it really matters).

The obvious problem is that we have not been disciplined this year. Conditioning is tough to gauge as a fan watching the game, although we do not have very many conditioning related injuries (sprains/strains). I wonder how hard the lack of preseason affected his coaching strategy. Also, I think he has reverted back to his 1st year as coach, where he was doing the offensive planning AND head coaching. Last year he was able to focus on the big picture and I thought that he was great (he made a below average team outperform itself regularly).

Does that mean he needs to be fired. I am not sure honestly. I like Haley because of what he has done, but he is not doing it this year.

In regards to drafting a QB, I disagree with that notion. I do not think our OL is above average. I am not sure if we need a LT or if we just need other upgrades, but I feel like our OL could do better. At the least, we may need a new OL coach. I dont think a rookie QB will be able to do much better without upgrading the OL. Thats why I would like to see us get some linemen in the first round. If Cassel isnt the guy, then next year will be his last. After all, I dont think a rookie QB would take us to the superbowl next year, even if it is Luck.

On defense, I agree that our biggest weakness is ILB. Maybe a healthy Siler is that answer, but I dont know. Other than DJ and Hali, I am severely disappointed in our LB corps.

Thats my rant ... a lot of flip-flopping and avoiding decisions ... I should be a politician!

chief31
11-16-2011, 06:45 PM
HEre's the thing about coaching for this team. They have too many indians trying to call plays. Cassel is confused half the time, delay of game penalties, time-outs and other issues. The early part of this year we saw a lot of issues with the coaching staff getting plays in from the sidelines.

This is not meant to give Cassel a pass, far from it, a better quarterback could be trusted to call his own plays in those situations, I bet Rodgers does and certainly we know that both Manning brothers do. But because Cassel is not that good, he is not allowed to make those calls.

Right now, there is not one part of this team beyond reproach for this horrible season, but if I had to pick one side of the ball, then offense is clearly struggling the most, and a large part of that is coming from the playcalling that is happening.

I have never really been a huge Haley supporter, I tolerated him last season because he was winning, but he made plenty of dumb decisions. This year, I think most of the failure on offense falls squarely on his shoulders, the problems they are having with getting calls in from the sidelines is clearly something he should have worked out as the ultimate leader on this team.

I think Cassel has been pretty close to just taking the reigns, without approval. But I think Haley would bench him, if he were to do so.

And the QBs who are allowed to call their own plays have generally proven themselves already, have a coach who is not horribly controlling with the play-calling, and/or just flat-out do it, without permission, and either succeed, or find the bench.

Clearly, at this point, he is not as good as the most elite QBs in The NFL, as you pointed out, with Rodgers, and the Mannings.

But that does not mean that he is not a good QB.


Where exactly am I giving one a pass but not the other again? So no, really haven't singled myself out for being hypocritical. When you try to call someone out, try reading the rest of the thread or perhaps asking if I wanted Haley gone or not before calling me a hypocrite.

Got me there.

There were 350+ unread posts when I logged on lastnight, so I definitely did some skimming.

My apologies.


As for looking at the rest of the offense I have and that's why I suggest in this very same thread changes that I thought might be a decent idea. Not to mention that you're seriously going to call Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin and Battle absolute garbage?? Wow, if you don't want them I'll sure take them on my team but that's probably just my "jaded" and "less valuable" opinion showing through there isn't it?



I mean, these individual players are not horrible. But Baldwin and Bowe have been dropping more passes than they have been catching, which means that they have been garbage for those two games.

And Battle, and Breaston are suffering from the same problem that has been plaguing Cassel, a horrible offense.

The blocking has been the most obvious offender. But I think the design, and the play-calling (Coaching, in general) has been the primary problem.

The offense has been horrible. Not necessarily every last individual player.


I focus on the QB because as I said and it's the truth he handles the ball the most and in my opinion which IS just as good as yours Cassel isn't the answer.

You are ware that there is football that gets played by the players who don't have the ball, right?

In fact, the vast majority of the players will not handle the ball on a given play.

Like I said, you admit that you focus on the QB (Using the ball as a reason to do so) but even focusing on the ball means that you are overlooking the vast majority of what is happening.

How do you not see that you are forming your opinion, with less of the needed input, than those who are not focusing on the ball?

I hate to sound like I am attacking you. But I just don't see how you can think that all opinions are equal, regardless of the amount of data that is put into them.

I mean, in the end, all of our opinions are of the same value, that being none. :D

But an opinion based on 20% of the available information is not equal to an opinion based on 80% of the available information.

It just isn't the same.