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marloweopatchiefs
11-23-2011, 05:10 PM
seen on espn

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 05:13 PM
Great. Now the Chiefs have a QB who doesn't want to play for them, preventing him from going where he would be happy.

Now he will either sit out or reluctantly take the money and nobody will be happy.

marloweopatchiefs
11-23-2011, 05:13 PM
Kansas City Chiefs claim Kyle Orton on waivers, source says - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7274326/kansas-city-chiefs-claim-kyle-orton-waivers-source-says)

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 05:15 PM
AAAAGH!

Why didn't you just add the link to the other thread you just started?

SIC J
11-23-2011, 05:17 PM
Is there any truth to Orton saying he didn't want to play for anyone but the Bears? Or maybe the Chiefs picked him up as trade bait to the Bears?

marloweopatchiefs
11-23-2011, 05:20 PM
@ topeka he will play he has no choice

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 05:20 PM
Is there any truth to Orton saying he didn't want to play for anyone but the Bears? Or maybe the Chiefs picked him up as trade bait to the Bears?
Yes, there is. I don't know if he will play for the Chiefs or not, but $2.6 million is a pretty big incentive.

The Bears just signed Josh McCown, after the Chiefs screwed them out of Orton. :(

nicfre2011
11-23-2011, 05:21 PM
Is there any truth to Orton saying he didn't want to play for anyone but the Bears? Or maybe the Chiefs picked him up as trade bait to the Bears?

I don't think there can be any trades beyond the deadline. I am really surprised by the Chiefs claiming him. I really thought they would go with Palko the rest of the way. I give Pioli and Haley props for apparently trying to win this year. Now some moves to get a legitimate safety and some other help previously could have certainly helped.

azchiefsfan
11-23-2011, 05:22 PM
I think we need another 3 or 4 Orton threads.

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 05:22 PM
@ topeka he will play he has no choice
He can sit out and give up the remainder of his salary. $2.6 million is a lot of money, but he will be a free agent in 6 games so he might be willing to make that sacrifice.

SIC J
11-23-2011, 05:24 PM
Yes, there is. I don't know if he will play for the Chiefs or not, but $2.6 million is a pretty big incentive.

The Bears just signed Josh McCown, after the Chiefs screwed them out of Orton. :(

Can you post the link or source?

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 05:28 PM
Can you post the link or source?
I already did, but there are, like, 5 threads on the same topic, now and I can't remember which thread I posted it in!

I'll see if I can find it.

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 05:30 PM
Okay, I just searched my previous posts. Here's the link:
Jay glazer hears kc could make a claim for orton - Page 3 - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?p=243533#post243533)

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 05:36 PM
If anyone comes across a link for a Kyle Orton or Haley/Pioli press conference, please post it as soon as possible.

SIC J
11-23-2011, 05:39 PM
Well we will see what happens.

Jrudi
11-23-2011, 05:45 PM
Pioli and Haley must be thinking they still have a shot to win this division or I don't see why they would have done this....

To be honest, that is the only reason for doing this... There is no sense in bringing him in and on our books for a shot season, so hopefully they are seeing more than what I have been. I was actually looking forward to seeing what Plako and Stanzi could do with some opportunity.

SIC J
11-23-2011, 05:53 PM
Pioli and Haley must be thinking they still have a shot to win this division or I don't see why they would have done this....

To be honest, that is the only reason for doing this... There is no sense in bringing him in and on our books for a shot season, so hopefully they are seeing more than what I have been. I was actually looking forward to seeing what Plako and Stanzi could do with some opportunity.

If Stanzi isn't the QB, I'd rather see Orton.

Three7s
11-23-2011, 06:03 PM
Pioli and Haley must be thinking they still have a shot to win this division or I don't see why they would have done this....

To be honest, that is the only reason for doing this... There is no sense in bringing him in and on our books for a shot season, so hopefully they are seeing more than what I have been. I was actually looking forward to seeing what Plako and Stanzi could do with some opportunity.
There is no chance of winning the division. Orton will not start against the Steelers, unless you want him to look like Palmer did against us. Taking that into account, the Chiefs will be 4-7 and out of it. All Orton will do is make the Chiefs slightly more competitive game to game. He's still no better than Cassel so it won't add up to wins.

Jrudi
11-23-2011, 06:13 PM
There is no chance of winning the division. Orton will not start against the Steelers, unless you want him to look like Palmer did against us. Taking that into account, the Chiefs will be 4-7 and out of it. All Orton will do is make the Chiefs slightly more competitive game to game. He's still no better than Cassel so it won't add up to wins.

That is why I am confused as to why they did this.. Technically there actually is a chance for us to win the division (do I think we will..No, but there is still a possibility of it happening)

I just don't see any other reason to do this, rather than if they have the idea that they feel we can still compete for a division title in our weak division.

If they were doing it to add experienced depth at the QB position, we could have waited until he cleared waivers and not be on the hook for his salary, or got someone else of the FA market.

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 06:19 PM
If they were doing it to add experienced depth at the QB position, we could have waited until he cleared waivers and not be on the hook for his salary, or got someone else of the FA market.
Except that we couldn't have waited because Dallas and Chicago also put in claims for him. The Cowboys, who are battling the Bears for a wildcard spot just wanted to keep him out of Chicago.

spiman
11-23-2011, 06:21 PM
:wtfdude: Maybe all this for leverage with the Bears? Just a thought..

SIC J
11-23-2011, 06:22 PM
There is no chance of winning the division. Orton will not start against the Steelers, unless you want him to look like Palmer did against us. Taking that into account, the Chiefs will be 4-7 and out of it. All Orton will do is make the Chiefs slightly more competitive game to game. He's still no better than Cassel so it won't add up to wins.

Really? LOL

Raiders play the Bears. I see the Bears winning. Chargers play the Broncos. I see the Chargers winning. So if the Chiefs lose, that still puts them only 2 games out. They still play the Raiders and the Broncos.

All their schedules are pretty much equally the same. At this point, I see 7-9 could possibly win the division.

toyotapower
11-23-2011, 06:24 PM
Orton is obviously a better passer than matt cassell. I love cassell, I really do, but orton makes throws that matt just can't make.

spiman
11-23-2011, 06:31 PM
Really? LOL

Raiders play the Bears. I see the Bears winning. Chargers play the Broncos. I see the Chargers winning. So if the Chiefs lose, that still puts them only 2 games out. They still play the Raiders and the Broncos.

All their schedules are pretty much equally the same. At this point, I see 7-9 could possibly win the division.
Look at last game KC vs Den Orton vs Tbow Div title on the line...:bananen_smilies046:

azchiefsfan
11-23-2011, 06:34 PM
Great, a contest to be the biggest the biggest turd on the manure pile!

Three7s
11-23-2011, 06:34 PM
Really? LOL

Raiders play the Bears. I see the Bears winning. Chargers play the Broncos. I see the Chargers winning. So if the Chiefs lose, that still puts them only 2 games out. They still play the Raiders and the Broncos.

All their schedules are pretty much equally the same. At this point, I see 7-9 could possibly win the division.
Cutler is out for the year.

Canada
11-23-2011, 06:36 PM
Cutler is out for the year.
Who cares...Bears win in spite of Cutler. I hate that guy. They will still run the ball well and play good defense!! :bananen_smilies046:

kcvet
11-23-2011, 06:37 PM
have to admit I didn't think Haley wanted him

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 06:38 PM
:wtfdude: Maybe all this for leverage with the Bears? Just a thought..
What leverage? The Bears can't trade for him becuse the trade deadline has passed and after the Chiefs pay Orton 2 1/2 million he's a free agent and by then the Bears will have Cutler back and won't want Kyle.

The Chiefs can't trade him now when he has value to the Bears and won't have first dibs on him in FA so they can't trade him in the future either.

#58ChiefsFan
11-23-2011, 06:45 PM
In an honest assessment of us winning the division we would pretty much need a win on Sunday against the Steelers. Palko would have to be the one to lead that, and IF he can beat the Steelers why do we need Kyle?

azchiefsfan
11-23-2011, 06:50 PM
I am actually a bit excited to see what he can do. I can't understand getting him if there isn't some sort of long term thinking. $2.5 mil for 6 games? It doesn't seem like a good plan unless he suddenly takes us 5-0.

TopekaRoy
11-23-2011, 07:02 PM
In an honest assessment of us winning the division we would pretty much need a win on Sunday against the Steelers. Palko would have to be the one to lead that, and IF he can beat the Steelers why do we need Kyle?

Actually I wouldn't be surprised to see Kyle play this week, especially if Palko struggles, just like the Raiders did with Palmer. (I hate doing anything like the Raiders!) We're not going to pay him that kind of money to ride the bench as insurance.

I think he will actually make the Chiefs less competitive for 2 games (if that's even possible) but more competitive after that when he has worked with the offense for a few weeks. He should know our offense pretty well already since he sees it twice a year. I don't know if he will make us competitive enough to actually win, but we should be better.

hometeam
11-23-2011, 07:25 PM
fact of the matter is, it wont hurt us to claim him, we will get a compensation pick for him if he does not resign. = win/win

kcvet
11-23-2011, 07:27 PM
the donks are saying we got sloppy seconds

ctchiefsfan
11-23-2011, 07:32 PM
It would now seem certain that some of the 4 QBs on our roster at the moment will be gone next year.

So who goes?

Stanzi? Palko? Cassel? Orton?

A Orton vs. Cassel QB controversy next year might be interesting.

Of course, Orton supposedly did not want to come to KC, but I think that would change quickly if he thought he was going to be able to actually compete with Cassel for the starting slot.

How's this for a scenario.....

Orton plays reasonably well this season. We resign him with a promise that he starts 2012 on equal footing with Cassel. Then we deal Stanzi and Palko (if we can get anything for him) for draft picks or to move up in the draft......

Just a thought......

okikcfan
11-23-2011, 07:52 PM
It could be if palko gets hurt is Stanzi ready? Maybe not yet, so now we have Orton, just thinkin....I think we are better off now with Orton than with out.

#58ChiefsFan
11-23-2011, 07:54 PM
I agree somewhere hidden in Haleys rhetoric that he is not completely comfortable with his back up qb situation.

I know the Chiefs say they scan the waiver wire all the time but given they very rarely, if ever, have made a short term decision I'm still lost on what this really means.

I think they want to groom Stanzi for someday down the road, I still am not convinced Cassel can be THE guy no matter how much I wish he could be.

We were in a postion to really evaluate our younger qb's and make a decision on where we stood at seasons end about drafting a true QBOTF.

If we truely are doing this to make the post season I think they are relying on the rest of the division to give us some help along the way.

Made things interesting as said before though.

Go Chiefs? :chiefs:

Hayvern
11-23-2011, 09:30 PM
Honestly, while Orton may not be the QB of the future, I actually think he is an upgrade over Cassel.

josh1971
11-23-2011, 09:34 PM
Did he actually agree to come play for us now?

Hayvern
11-23-2011, 09:37 PM
I have not read anything that says he won't, I guess he retires if he does not want to play with us eh?

kcvet
11-23-2011, 09:37 PM
Honestly, while Orton may not be the QB of the future, I actually think he is an upgrade over Cassel.

like to see them two go at it in camp next year.

ctchiefsfan
11-23-2011, 10:17 PM
It could be if palko gets hurt is Stanzi ready? Maybe not yet, so now we have Orton, just thinkin....I think we are better off now with Orton than with out.

Good points.....

I still wish kinda wish we had left Orton alone and spent the rest of the season seeing what Palko and Stanzi could do.

That said.....If we are bringing Orton in to pressure Cassel next year, I am good with that. If we brought Orton in to try to save this season.....then that was just plain stupid. We'd have been better off spending the $2.5 Mil buying beer for Chiefs fans.

I've supported Haley, Pioli, Cassel.....but this move on Orton is starting to make me think we have a team and management in complete disarray with no clue where they want to go or how to get there.

But I will hold my fire on that notion until I see what we do with Orton. If he is a strategic move trying to improve our QB spot long term, then I am good with that. If he is an attempt to save this season then somebody in management needs to stop smoking crack.

All in all, I am NOT feeling good about this move.

CHIEFS_FN_ROCK
11-23-2011, 10:39 PM
:bananen_smilies046:
Honestly, while Orton may not be the QB of the future, I actually think he is an upgrade over Cassel.

Eydugstr
11-23-2011, 11:21 PM
Cassel, Palko, Stanzi, Orton...Don't care who you throw in behind center...Until changes are made to offensive line, keep the stretchers, nose salt & medical tractor closeby.

Goofy front office move. Orton will play well, but enough to make a 4-6 team 10-6? Don't see that one happening.

josh1971
11-24-2011, 12:15 AM
Cassel, Palko, Stanzi, Orton...Don't care who you throw in behind center...Until changes are made to offensive line, keep the stretchers, nose salt & medical tractor close by.

T H I S


Goofy front office move. Orton will play well, but enough to make a 4-6 team 10-6? Don't see that one happening.

I wouldn't call it goofy as long as Orton was brought in to get a serious run at being the starter, even when Cassell gets healthy. I like Orton's arm better than Matt's, and with our receiving corps, that could do some great things.

chief31
11-24-2011, 12:30 AM
I see nothing to lose from this pickup.

I was kind of surprised that Orton wanted to go to Chicago. They treated him pretty poorly. But I guess he was looking for a familiar team, and maybe just liked the actual city of Chicago.

And the pass protection there is at least as bad as in KC.

okikcfan
11-24-2011, 12:32 AM
Well I for one am suprised that Pioli and Haley made this move. But I am glad they did, to me it shows they are not ready to give up yet. I like that. Remember folks, this is NFL Football, who knows what will happen On Any Given Sunday! Go Chiefs!!!!

matthewschiefs
11-24-2011, 01:22 AM
I like it. He's won games as a starter. I hope to see him in there next week. Don't think it would be great to see him this week.

AussieChiefsFan
11-24-2011, 02:38 AM
Interesting move. I didn't expect this to happen even though people said it might.

Chiefster
11-24-2011, 03:04 AM
Wow! Just wow!






...That is all.

okikcfan
11-24-2011, 08:37 AM
Just watched ESPN bright and early this Turkey morning and they said that there was no truth to the report that Orton would be a no show. He wants to play and compete, he wants to show that he still has it.

Vandelay
11-24-2011, 12:35 PM
I think we gotta play Orton this week against the Steelers. The odds of him winning are not good, but I think he gives us a better shot than Palko

kcvet
11-24-2011, 12:58 PM
I think we gotta play Orton this week against the Steelers. The odds of him winning are not good, but I think he gives us a better shot than Palko

that's what they did with Palmer. put him in to soon and we ate him alive

Vandelay
11-24-2011, 01:16 PM
that's what they did with Palmer. put him in to soon and we ate him alive
The difference here is Palmer hadn't even been with a team since last season ended.
I know Orton won't be fully ready, but I think our chances are better with him than Palko.

I think we would have a better shot with Stanzi than Palko.

Miller
11-24-2011, 03:09 PM
The difference here is Palmer hadn't even been with a team since last season ended.
I know Orton won't be fully ready, but I think our chances are better with him than Palko.

I think we would have a better shot with Stanzi than Palko.
Agreed. Palko is and always will be a jorneyman that shines in the backup role. I for one would love to see Stanzi out there just to see what we have. The draft is coming up and we need to see what this guy is made of.

TopekaRoy
11-24-2011, 03:13 PM
Cutler is out for the year.
No he isn't. He should be out for for about 6 wees which would mean he could be back in week 16 (Packers) or 17 (Vikings). He will definitely be healthy for the playoffs.


I was kind of surprised that Orton wanted to go to Chicago. They treated him pretty poorly.How was he treated poorly? Because he was traded for a much better QB? That's not poor treatment.. It's good business. In fact, they treated him quite well. They even gave him the starting job over Rex Grossman (who led them to the Superbowl) because he doesn't give games away like Rex.


But I guess he was looking for a familiar team, and maybe just liked the actual city of Chicago.Exactly. A lot of his old teammates are still there, he played for Lovie Smith and he left on very good terms. The fans there still love him. And Chicago is a great City (but so is KC,)


And the pass protection there is at least as bad as in KC.
Not anymore it's not. The biggest reason for the Bears 5 game winning streak (besides running the ball more) is the improved play of the offensive line.


Just watched ESPN bright and early this Turkey morning and they said that there was no truth to the report that Orton would be a no show. He wants to play and compete, he wants to show that he still has it.

I figured his saying he wouldn't play for any team but Chicago was just posturing because he wanted to go there and they were so far down the list in waiver priority, Besides, He is a free agent at the end of the year and he is going to want to showcase his abilities so he can make more money.

chief31
11-24-2011, 11:02 PM
that's what they did with Palmer. put him in to soon and we ate him alive

How were things going in that game up to that point?


How was he treated poorly? Because he was traded for a much better QB? That's not poor treatment.. It's good business. In fact, they treated him quite well. They even gave him the starting job over Rex Grossman (who led them to the Superbowl) because he doesn't give games away like Rex.

Gave him the starting job over Rex Grossman?

Would that be before, or after, they pulled Orton for the playoffs, after he led them there?

And Bears fans were generally spiteful toward Orton for having no ability to throw the football.

And then to trade him for A LESSER QB? Even going so far as to throw a bounty of draft picks in, just to "even the deal"?

And when did The Bears ever bother to create an offense that was fair to any QB?

Then, let's consider what happens when Cutler comes back... Just a repeat of 2005-06, where they cast him to the side for, what all Bears fans already know is, "The better QB".




Exactly. A lot of his old teammates are still there, he played for Lovie Smith and he left on very good terms. The fans there still love him. And Chicago is a great City (but so is KC,)

Bears fans love him? You should spread that word to more Bears fans. I live in Illinois, and Bears fans think he is a mediocre QB, at best, and are thrilled to be rid of him.



Not anymore it's not. The biggest reason for the Bears 5 game winning streak (besides running the ball more) is the improved play of the offensive line.

Even The Chiefs' pass protection managed a couple of good games. But, until The Bears can stop leaving extra players back as additional blockers, then their o-line is still bad in pass protection.

I like The Bears. And I hope they get their offense put together. I will even add that they were not as unfair to Orton as Denver was.

But he was treated as Matt Cassel is here, then dealt for a "better QB". So much better, that the draft picks they added to the deal should have been enough to get Culter, making Orton almost a "throw this in to".

Chiefster
11-25-2011, 12:00 AM
KO Highlights.mp4 - YouTube

:D

TopekaRoy
11-25-2011, 02:05 AM
Gave him the starting job over Rex Grossman?

Would that be before, or after, they pulled Orton for the playoffs, after he led them there?
Orton was only staring because Grossman was hurt. Most people believed that Rex had the skills to be a franchise QB and a starter shouldn't lose his job to injury. Orton eventually proved that he was the better QB and earned the start. Grossman has better physical skills but is too eratic and makes bad decisions.


And Bears fans were generally spiteful toward Orton for having no ability to throw the football.
The average fan thought that he couldn't throw the long ball, that is true. That turned out to be more the result of Ron Turner's offense and the Receivers he had to throw to. He showed in Denver that he can put up passing yards. But most fans that I know still appreciated the fact that he was a good game manager who wouldn't make costly mistakes and give the ball game away.

And then to trade him for A LESSER QB? Even going so far as to throw a bounty of draft picks in, just to "even the deal"?

Is it your opinion that Cutler is a lesser QB than Orton? Because that's not my opinion nor the opinion of most Bear fans and media analysts. If you mean that Orton was perceived as the better QB at the time, then why did the Bears have to add a first and third round pick to get Cutler? That doesn't make sense.

And when did The Bears ever bother to create an offense that was fair to any QB?

LOL! I agree with you there, but that is more the result of Jerry Angelo's lack of competence than lack of effort. They just suck at evaluating talent.


Bears fans love him? You should spread that word to more Bears fans. I live in Illinois, and Bears fans think he is a mediocre QB, at best, and are thrilled to be rid of him.

I don't know what part of Illinois you live in or what Bear fans you talk to, but my recollection is that Bear fans were split about 50/50 on the trade. A lot of Bears fans pointed to the fact that Orton actually had a better winning percentage than Cutler at the time and Believed that Cutler's success was the result of Denver's offensive scheme and that he would struggle with the Bears offense (and they were right about that at first.)

Here is what "Bear fans" were saying when they found out Orton was available (both good and bad.).
source (http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/chicago-bears-forum/18294-broncos-release-kyle-orton.html)

"I'm thinking we may call him."

"I think he could be great in Houston managing that offense..."

"Of all the half-assed QBs that the Bears have had in the last 10 years, Kyle was by far my favorite. "

"The Bears should obviously pick him up if available, but I prefer giving Caleb Hanie a chance to start while using Orton as the back-up. "

"They want a vet backup, Orton instantly becomes the best option."

"I don't mind having Orton as a back up. I'm hoping that Hanie plays well enough that it won't even make a difference. But, if Hanie plays bad enough to lose the spot, then Orton can't be any worse.

It's a win win for us...or is it a lose lose?... "

"All-in-all, not a bad pickup. He was well respected in the locker room during his time here. He's a smart QB who doesn't gamble alot & is fairly durable. Hanie is the man now, but KO is not a bad backup to have given the current situation.:

"Not a bad pick up at all, if all goes through. I have no problem relying on our ST, Def, and a game manager in either Hanie or Orton to not produce, but maintain."

"Not a fan of this idea. I get that they want a vet QB to back up Hanie, but when they said that I thought they were looking for a GOOD vet QB. "

"This makes me happy. My dog's name is Kyle. He also likes booze. Coincidence? I think not"

"Kyle Orton will lead the Bears to the promised land.

Y'all laughed at me.

Y'all laughed at me. (joking) "

"who else could that have gotten that's better than Orton?

They were looking at JT O'sullivan and Josh McCown yesterday... Orton's better than those guys "

"I don't know. I'm just not a fan of Orton. "

"Orton can win games, as he has shown in the past, when he doesn't turn the ball over much.

I agree with most people that hanie should get a shot over orton, but it's good insurance just in case Hanie blows or gets injured ."

"I'm not saying he would necessarily be good as the backup, I'm just fairly certain that he wants to play here & wants to remain here after the season is over. And considering his relationships with the coaching staff & some of the players it's not that far of a stretch. 1 things for certain, he's better than Enderle,"


As you can see, nobody is saying he is a great QB, but Bear fans overwhelming like him and wanted him back in Chicago.


Even The Chiefs' pass protection managed a couple of good games. But, until The Bears can stop leaving extra players back as additional blockers, then their o-line is still bad in pass protection.

The difference is that the Bears have the talent to use max protection and still put points on the board. The Bears have scored an average of 26.8 ppg (6th) this year while the Chiefs have averaged 14.4 ppg (29th). I never said that the Bears O-line was playing well. I just said they were playing better. In fact well enough to score almost twice as many points per game as the Chiefs.


I like The Bears. And I hope they get their offense put together. I will even add that they were not as unfair to Orton as Denver was.
I wholeheartedly agree.

But he was treated as Matt Cassel is here, then dealt for a "better QB". So much better, that the draft picks they added to the deal should have been enough to get Culter, making Orton almost a "throw this in to".[/quote]
Cutler was a pro-bowl QB that year and his perceived value was very high. They traded their first and third round picks to Denver but got back a 5th round pick, which they used to select johnny Knox, so it's not like they gave away the farm to get Cutler. In fact, I think they came out pretty well. :D

OPLookn
11-25-2011, 12:26 PM
I agree somewhere hidden in Haleys rhetoric that he is not completely comfortable with his back up qb situation.

I know the Chiefs say they scan the waiver wire all the time but given they very rarely, if ever, have made a short term decision I'm still lost on what this really means.

I think they want to groom Stanzi for someday down the road, I still am not convinced Cassel can be THE guy no matter how much I wish he could be.

We were in a postion to really evaluate our younger qb's and make a decision on where we stood at seasons end about drafting a true QBOTF.

If we truely are doing this to make the post season I think they are relying on the rest of the division to give us some help along the way.

Made things interesting as said before though.

Go Chiefs? :chiefs:

My thought is that we're still grooming Stanzi and don't want to throw him into the fire to see what we got. Grooming him will take (on average) two more seasons. I wanted to see what he had against Denver and maybe part of the Raiders game but I'd much rather have him put in when he's ready not because we need him or want to see what we have. Orton will challenge for the starting job. After this season when Cassel comes back Palko is gone and we've got a legitimate backup regardless of who's starting with Stanzi getting another 2 years to learn the offense and then take over.

If Palko doesn't get the boot to me that signals that we can't or won't sign Orton to a long term contract, we're taking the compensation picks and also wanted to keep him off the Bears roster. Here's a curious thought though. Say that Orton does sit out and we say ok fine, we'll cut you after the Bears game. Do you think Pioli went out and got Orton specifically to keep him from playing against us? It was said earlier that Dallas put in a bid just to keep him away from the Bears...why not us when still having an outside chance at winning the division?

chief31
11-25-2011, 01:35 PM
Is it your opinion that Cutler is a lesser QB than Orton? Because that's not my opinion nor the opinion of most Bear fans and media analysts. If you mean that Orton was perceived as the better QB at the time, then why did the Bears have to add a first and third round pick to get Cutler? That doesn't make sense.

Yes. I think Orton is the better QB. Or at least, he has been since the trade.




Here is what "Bear fans" were saying when they found out Orton was available (both good and bad.).
source (http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/chicago-bears-forum/18294-broncos-release-kyle-orton.html)


As you can see, nobody is saying he is a great QB, but Bear fans overwhelming like him and wanted him back in Chicago.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?! Are you sure? Let's look again....


"I'm thinking we may call him."

I don't see anything there.


"I think he could be great in Houston managing that offense..."

"Go to some other team and be a game manager"? You highlighted "Could be great" and used this statment to show how well-liked Orton is among Bears fans?!?!?!





"Of all the half-assed QBs that the Bears have had in the last 10 years, Kyle was by far my favorite. "

With friends like this guy, who needs enemies?




"The Bears should obviously pick him up if available, but I prefer giving Caleb Hanie a chance to start while using Orton as the back-up. "

So, third string, behind Hanie and Cutler? This is some kind of compliment?



"They want a vet backup, Orton instantly becomes the best option."

"I don't mind having Orton as a back up. I'm hoping that Hanie plays well enough that it won't even make a difference. But, if Hanie plays bad enough to lose the spot, then Orton can't be any worse.

It's a win win for us...or is it a lose lose?... "

"All-in-all, not a bad pickup. He was well respected in the locker room during his time here. He's a smart QB who doesn't gamble alot & is fairly durable. Hanie is the man now, but KO is not a bad backup to have given the current situation.:

All of those comments are degrading Orton and calling him their thrid-stringer.



"Not a bad pick up at all, if all goes through. I have no problem relying on our ST, Def, and a game manager in either Hanie or Orton to not produce, but maintain."


Again, suggesting that "we can win in spite of him" is not a compliment.




"Not a fan of this idea. I get that they want a vet QB to back up Hanie, but when they said that I thought they were looking for a GOOD vet QB. "


Surely this is not supposed to be a compliment...



"This makes me happy. My dog's name is Kyle. He also likes booze. Coincidence? I think not"

"Kyle Orton will lead the Bears to the promised land.

Y'all laughed at me.

Y'all laughed at me. (joking) "

(joking)




"who else could that have gotten that's better than Orton?

They were looking at JT O'sullivan and Josh McCown yesterday... Orton's better than those guys "


Is this a compliment?



"I don't know. I'm just not a fan of Orton. "


.........


"Orton can win games, as he has shown in the past, when he doesn't turn the ball over much.

I agree with most people that hanie should get a shot over orton, but it's good insurance just in case Hanie blows or gets injured ."

More third stringer statements.



"I'm not saying he would necessarily be good as the backup, I'm just fairly certain that he wants to play here & wants to remain here after the season is over. And considering his relationships with the coaching staff & some of the players it's not that far of a stretch. 1 things for certain, he's better than Enderle,"

I just don't see where any of this is supposed to counter my claim that Bears fans have a low opinion of the guy.

I am calling a penalty on you for this. ILLEGAL SMOKESCREEN. Fifteen yards! :D



The difference is that the Bears have the talent to use max protection and still put points on the board. The Bears have scored an average of 26.8 ppg (6th) this year while the Chiefs have averaged 14.4 ppg (29th). I never said that the Bears O-line was playing well. I just said they were playing better. In fact well enough to score almost twice as many points per game as the Chiefs. quote]

A.) When your defense gets off the field quickly, and puts you in great field position, not to mention the ST help from Hester, it makes for more points.

B.) Being forced to use those max-protect plays means your o-line is poor in pass protection.



Cutler was a pro-bowl QB that year and his perceived value was very high. They traded their first and third round picks to Denver but got back a 5th round pick, which they used to select johnny Knox, so it's not like they gave away the farm to get Cutler. In fact, I think they came out pretty well. :D

Wow. That doesn't sound too bad.

A 1st and a third? That means that Culter is only a first and third more valuable than Orton.

But, if we were to include the other first round pick, in 2010, that The Bears gave in the deal, suddenly, it's two first's and a third.

And only to watch Orton out-perform Cutler for the next two years

___________________________________________

I think you are a very balanced fan, a rarity.

But I think you are confusing your thoughts about the situation, with the average Bears fans' thoughts.

Jrudi
11-25-2011, 02:21 PM
I was baffled at this move as well when I first heard about it, but after talking with my brother about it, I didn't realize that Orton will be a "Restricted Free Agent" after this season.

So then it made me kind of undertand the move, I mean of course Haley and Pioli still hold hope of winning this division, even if the cards are stacked against us (Haley's job may depend on it, and they wouldn't send the message to their team that they have given up, or they could loose them), we actually needed to add a QB since Matt was out for the season (because we only had 2 on the roster) and Orton was the best available.

But the biggest thing that made me look at this move differently was the restricted free agent label that he will carry this off season. If he signs with anyone else next year, we will get compensation for it (probably nothing more than a 3rd round pick, but if you think about it, we landed Kenrick Lewis in the 5th, Moeaki and Asamoah in the 3rd) It will be a nice easy way to grab another draft pick to use, or use as fire power to move up in the draft.

After thinking about it, I think it was strategically a fairly smart Idea. Do I think he will save our season? No, but it will be nice to get a draft pick if he leaves, or if not, have him as an experienced QB on our roster.

TopekaRoy
11-25-2011, 06:05 PM
This is fun. I don't know if anyone else in this forum cares, but I am enjoying this debate.:bananen_smilies046:


Yes. I think Orton is the better QB. Or at least, he has been since the trade.
I don't know how you can say Orton has outperformed Cutler since the trade. The Bears have gone 25-16 in games he's started. he's 17-7 over the last 2 years. Orton has gone 12-22 since the trade.

In 2007-8 Cutler was 15-17 with Denver and Orton was 11-8 with the Bears.

Yes, I know that Hester is a god and the Bears have had a much better defense than the Broncos, but Cutler did better than Orton with both teams. Cutler's career QBR is 84.5 and Orton's is 79.4. I'm not saying Orton is a bad QB, but anyway you look at it Cutler is better.


WHAT?!?!?!?!?! Are you sure? Let's look again....

Bears fans have a lot of confidence in Hanie based pretty much on just his performance in the 2nd half of the NFC championship game, last year. That's a very small sample size. What I read in the majority of those comments is "We don't know how good Hanie will be. If he fails we at least know that Orton can get the job done." My main point was that most people were in favor of getting him back.


A.) When your defense gets off the field quickly, and puts you in great field position, not to mention the ST help from Hester, it makes for more points.

B.) Being forced to use those max-protect plays means your o-line is poor in pass protection.

I like winning games and if max protection is what it takes to win games, I'm OK with that. Keep in mind that the Bears are without 3 of their offensive linemen Their best lineman, Gabe Carimi, has been out most of the season. Chris Spencer who should be a center was playing for him and now he's hurt. And now they lost Chris Williams and Edwin Williams is filling in for him. Yet they are still putting up points while allowing only 5 sacks in the last 5 games. How many Chiefs starting offensive lineman are out with injuries, hmmm?

The defense is performing well in large part because the offense is allowing them to rest and converting 3rd downs. With the Chiefs run heavy, ball control offense, that's supposed to be how it is for them, but it hasn't worked out that way.


A 1st and a third? That means that Culter is only a first and third more valuable than Orton.

But, if we were to include the other first round pick, in 2010, that The Bears gave in the deal, suddenly, it's two first's and a third.
Yeah, I forgot about that one but how has all those picks worked out for the donkeys? No Cutler and now no Orton either. Well at least they got Knowshon Moreno. :D


And only to watch Orton out-perform Cutler for the next two years
Were can I get some of what you are smoking?
___________________________________________


I think you are a very balanced fan, a rarity.

But I think you are confusing your thoughts about the situation, with the average Bears fans' thoughts.
I don't know. I think Orton's a decent QB and should have at least been starting over Tebow.

But Cutler is better.:D

azchiefsfan
11-25-2011, 06:15 PM
I am having trouble finding it, but I seem to recall Orton had something like 5 wins and 13 losses at Denver. So I would think that Cutler is better, but a lot of variables determine a QB's winning percentages. I think Orton is a mid-level QB who won't win a lot of games on his own, but can give a team a chance to win. Either way, for better or worse, he will be our starting QB. I hope he does well, because I want us to win. Everyone knew that Miami had the first dib and us second and Miami is jazzed with Moore, so Denver knew we would get him. I hope Orton has more in the tank than Denver thinks, because they didn't care that their division rival got him. That could be a very bad decision on their part, or it may be they know something we don't. So all I know is I hope he catches fire and we shock a lot of good teams the last 5 games of the season.

chief31
11-25-2011, 08:32 PM
This is fun. I don't know if anyone else in this forum cares, but I am enjoying this debate.:bananen_smilies046:

Same here. :D


I don't know how you can say Orton has outperformed Cutler since the trade.

More passing yards, higher QB Rating, and a better TD/INT ratio in both, 2009, and 2010.


The Bears have gone 25-16 in games he's started. he's 17-7 over the last 2 years. Orton has gone 12-22 since the trade.

In 2007-8 Cutler was 15-17 with Denver and Orton was 11-8 with the Bears.

Yes, I know that Hester is a god and the Bears have had a much better defense than the Broncos, but Cutler did better than Orton with both teams. Cutler's career QBR is 84.5 and Orton's is 79.4. I'm not saying Orton is a bad QB, but anyway you look at it Cutler is better.

Good team with average QBs win more than poor rebuilding teams with above average QBs.

How does that translate? The Bears were winning, even when they were treating Orton like he can't throw.

And Orton was playing far better than Cutler, but The Broncos had nothing to go with the amazing passing attack, so the team lost games, whereas The Bears won, because their defense and ST play was good enough to make up for mediocre QB play from Cutler.

Bottom line here? Teams win. Players perform. And Orton out-performed Cutler, by a pretty wide margin.


Bears fans have a lot of confidence in Hanie based pretty much on just his performance in the 2nd half of the NFC championship game, last year. That's a very small sample size. What I read in the majority of those comments is "We don't know how good Hanie will be. If he fails we at least know that Orton can get the job done." My main point was that most people were in favor of getting him back.

But the point was that Bears fans have a low opinion of him. And thinking that he should be their third-stringer is exactly what I was talking about.


I like winning games and if max protection is what it takes to win games, I'm OK with that. Keep in mind that the Bears are without 3 of their offensive linemen Their best lineman, Gabe Carimi, has been out most of the season. Chris Spencer who should be a center was playing for him and now he's hurt. And now they lost Chris Williams and Edwin Williams is filling in for him. Yet they are still putting up points while allowing only 5 sacks in the last 5 games. How many Chiefs starting offensive lineman are out with injuries, hmmm?

This changes nothing. The o-line is still not playing well. They are having to re-design the offense to make up for terrible pass protection.

Rather or not that has been working, does not change that their pass blocking is bad.

Injuries?

Doesn't change that they do not have good pass-blocking.




The defense is performing well in large part because the offense is allowing them to rest and converting 3rd downs.

Oh stop that. You are a Bears fan. You know good and well that that defense performs, with, or without any help from their offense.

Again, look back at how they did when they were treating Orton like a talentless hack.




With the Chiefs run heavy, ball control offense, that's supposed to be how it is for them, but it hasn't worked out that way.

Yeah, I forgot about that one but how has all those picks worked out for the donkeys? No Cutler and now no Orton either. Well at least they got Knowshon Moreno. :D

Again, this has nothing to do with the topic of The Bears treating Orton like a bad QB.

They thought he was so terrible that they had to give two first round picks, and a third, to even the deal for Cutler.



Were can I get some of what you are smoking?

Well, I usually get mine from Ryfo. :lol:


I don't know. I think Orton's a decent QB and should have at least been starting over Tebow.

But Cutler is better.:D

Cutler has more physical ability. But Orton has done more, with less. Other than when The Bears were stacking the deck against him.

We can just agree to disagree on who's better. As I said, I think most of Orton's success was a result of McDaniels' offense than anything else.

But my point was that The Bears mistreated Orton. And they did.

TopekaRoy
11-25-2011, 10:40 PM
More passing yards, higher QB Rating, and a better TD/INT ratio in both, 2009, and 2010.
Of course Orton had more passing yards. The Broncs defense was giving up 40 ppg (hyperbole) and they were always trying to catch up/keep up. Orton also had a better running attack, better o-line and better receivers than the Bears had. I think the main reason Cutler threw so many interceptions was because he had a crappy O-line and receivers who couldn't run the right routes and fight for the ball. Now that he has been in the same system for 2 years in a row his stats are much better. In fact his INT rate has dropped every year as a Bear from 26 to 16 to a projected 11 this year. Cutler is getting better, Orton is getting benched and cut. QBR, IMO, is the least important stat as far as evaluating QBs goes. That's why I mentioned that Cutler had a better career QBR than Orton, last, almost as an afterthought.


Good team with average QBs win more than poor rebuilding teams with above average QBs.

How does that translate? The Bears were winning, even when they were treating Orton like he can't throw.

And Orton was playing far better than Cutler, but The Broncos had nothing to go with the amazing passing attack, so the team lost games, whereas The Bears won, because their defense and ST play was good enough to make up for mediocre QB play from Cutler.

I don't think you are giving Cutler enough credit for the Bears success and you think I am assigning to much blame to Orton for the Broncos lack of success. On this we will just have to agree to disagree.


But the point was that Bears fans have a low opinion of him. And thinking that he should be their third-stringer is exactly what I was talking about.

Yeah, I guess I exaggerated when I said that Bears fans still love Orton. It would have been more accurate to say that Bears fans would love to have him back in Chicago, given the current situation.


This changes nothing. The o-line is still not playing well. They are having to re-design the offense to make up for terrible pass protection. Rather or not that has been working, does not change that their pass blocking is bad.

On this we agree that the Bears O-line is still not very good I think it's getting better and is better than the Chiefs o-line, though.


Oh stop that. You are a Bears fan. You know good and well that that defense performs, with, or without any help from their offense.

Again, look back at how they did when they were treating Orton like a talentless hack.

Yeah, they went 7-9 and 9-7 and missed the playoffs twice after going to the Superbowl the year before with "good Rex/Bad Rex" at QB.


Again, this has nothing to do with the topic of The Bears treating Orton like a bad QB.

They thought he was so terrible that they had to give two first round picks, and a third, to even the deal for Cutler and a 5th.

But my point was that The Bears mistreated Orton. And they did.

Well then tell me this: If Orton was so badly treated by the Bears, why did he tell the 29 teams that had waiver priority to not bother claiming him because he wouldn't show up at camp? Why was he so eager to go back to a team that mistreated him so and play in front of fans that never respected him when the only reason he asked the Broncos to release him in the first place (according to reliable news sources) was because Cutler was hurt and he saw that as an opportunity to play for the Bears?


Well, I usually get mine from Ryfo. :lol:

hehheh. I can't smoke that stuff anyway. it makes me dizzy!


Cutler has more physical ability. But Orton has done more, with less. Other than when The Bears were stacking the deck against him.

We can just agree to disagree on who's better. As I said, I think most of Orton's success was a result of McDaniels' offense than anything else.

I think we pretty much agree on how good Orton is and that's pretty good. I just think Cutler is a little better and you think hes a little worse. Maybe my love for the Bears is clouding my judgment and maybe your dislike for the Broncos or Cutler's personality is clouding yours. I really am excited to have Orton in KC. I think he can really help the team.

As far as how he compares to Cutler goes, let's see how they both do over the next 3 years or so.

Chiefster
11-26-2011, 12:09 AM
This is fun. I don't know if anyone else in this forum cares, but I am enjoying this debate.:bananen_smilies046:...

Wait! A debate here, on Chiefs Crowd????

Surely you jest?! :D