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Bike
11-26-2011, 02:50 AM
In the third year of the Pioli/Haley era, one would think KC would be maybe 3/4 of the way to building a championship team, and getting to the playoffs last year gave me a lot of hope. But now this team is going in the wrong direction.
Many on here will blame injuries. I disagree. Good teams overcome injuries. Good teams draft depth. Both our offensive and defensive lines are horrible. Just flat out bad. There is no excuse for this. None.
I posted 3 years ago that this team needed to build from inside out - build the lines first. I got shot down.
So who is accountable for this mess? Clark? Pioli? Haley?
With over 30 million in cap room, why couldn't we make some strides on getting our lines fixed?
WHY?
Why are we still trying to squeeze 4/3 players into a 3/4 defense?
WHY?
I'm not sure who is making the decisions on this team regarding player personnel, coaches, and philosophy, but whoever it is - is failing. Time to re-evaluate.

Canada
11-26-2011, 09:04 AM
I agree with you for the most part man, but Im not putting injuries on the management and I think this season is an exception to most as far as overcoming injuries. There have been a significant number of season injuries across the league but they have hit the Chiefs especially hard. Take you your starting RB, up and coming starting TE, Starting Safety, Starting QB, Starting DT. There are only so many quality players available to fill those spots. (although spending some of that $33 million would help) I cant however make an excuse for the fact that they arent just losing, but they are getting blown out!! 41-7, 48-3, 31-3 ( Scores of Buf, Det and Mia) Sh!tty teams are killing us. Someone up front needs to get their sh!t together and make something happen or get out of the way for someone who can!!

AussieChiefsFan
11-26-2011, 10:05 AM
I agree with you for the most part man, but Im not putting injuries on the management and I think this season is an exception to most as far as overcoming injuries. There have been a significant number of season injuries across the league but they have hit the Chiefs especially hard. Take you your starting RB, up and coming starting TE, Starting Safety, Starting QB, Starting DT. There are only so many quality players available to fill those spots. (although spending some of that $33 million would help) I cant however make an excuse for the fact that they arent just losing, but they are getting blown out!! 41-7, 48-3, 31-3 ( Scores of Buf, Det and Mia) Sh!tty teams are killing us. Someone up front needs to get their sh!t together and make something happen or get out of the way for someone who can!!
This is spot on!

azchiefsfan
11-26-2011, 10:50 AM
This is spot on!

I agree Bike and Canada. As I have said everytime I write on this subject, I am not ready to ask for Pioli and Haley's heads yet, but there needs to be some public expression of Hunts disapproval at how this train is going down hill with no brakes and there's a hairpin at the bottom and it is on Haley and Pioli to get this thing turned around fast. Not 3 years from now, but like by end of the season tangible improvement kind of thing.

Yoda
11-26-2011, 11:41 AM
A small market team like the Chiefs should be looking at personel who has had great success in the small market. Ala....Green Bay. These two teams have much in common....small market....great "college atmosphere" venue, loyal fans. Reggie Mckenzie is a very strong candidate for the Raiders GM spot. But would fit great for KC.

jb908
11-26-2011, 12:26 PM
Me either. I'm not ready to start over again though. I need at least one more year.

dietsch
11-26-2011, 12:31 PM
I agree with you for the most part man, but Im not putting injuries on the management and I think this season is an exception to most as far as overcoming injuries. There have been a significant number of season injuries across the league but they have hit the Chiefs especially hard. Take you your starting RB, up and coming starting TE, Starting Safety, Starting QB, Starting DT. There are only so many quality players available to fill those spots. (although spending some of that $33 million would help) I cant however make an excuse for the fact that they arent just losing, but they are getting blown out!! 41-7, 48-3, 31-3 ( Scores of Buf, Det and Mia) Sh!tty teams are killing us. Someone up front needs to get their sh!t together and make something happen or get out of the way for someone who can!!


good post, but I think the loss to Denver was most embarrassing...I know we didn't get blown out, but they only completed TWO passes!!!! at some point you have to stop the run, and make some plays on offense, but we just didn't.

Bike
11-26-2011, 02:04 PM
I agree with you for the most part man, but Im not putting injuries on the management and I think this season is an exception to most as far as overcoming injuries. There have been a significant number of season injuries across the league but they have hit the Chiefs especially hard. Take you your starting RB, up and coming starting TE, Starting Safety, Starting QB, Starting DT. There are only so many quality players available to fill those spots. (although spending some of that $33 million would help) I cant however make an excuse for the fact that they arent just losing, but they are getting blown out!! 41-7, 48-3, 31-3 ( Scores of Buf, Det and Mia) Sh!tty teams are killing us. Someone up front needs to get their sh!t together and make something happen or get out of the way for someone who can!!
Good post man. We don't have to go back too far to see how good teams cope with injuries. Last year, Green Bay was devastated with injuries. They lost their starting TE, starting RB, starting RT (sound familiar?), starting SS, both starting ML's, and their starting OLB. And all they did was win the superbowl. Now, I'm not saying that we should be where GB is at this point, but damn, we are getting slaughtered - at home. Something is wrong at One Arrowhead Drive.
Beer.

matthewschiefs
11-26-2011, 02:38 PM
I agree with you for the most part man, but Im not putting injuries on the management and I think this season is an exception to most as far as overcoming injuries. There have been a significant number of season injuries across the league but they have hit the Chiefs especially hard. Take you your starting RB, up and coming starting TE, Starting Safety, Starting QB, Starting DT. There are only so many quality players available to fill those spots. (although spending some of that $33 million would help) I cant however make an excuse for the fact that they arent just losing, but they are getting blown out!! 41-7, 48-3, 31-3 ( Scores of Buf, Det and Mia) Sh!tty teams are killing us. Someone up front needs to get their sh!t together and make something happen or get out of the way for someone who can!!



THIS

That is the main reason I have been saying that Haley needs to go. He's not getting that the talent that we do have to play every week. Miami is not 31-3 better then the Chiefs even with all the injuries. Right now I just want to get through this season and look who we can bring in to coach this team. I just don't think that Haley is doing the job. There is talent on this team. Far better then there was before the new regime got to KC. I just don't think the talent that we have that is healthy is being coached to play there best.

chief31
11-26-2011, 03:02 PM
In the third year of the Pioli/Haley era, one would think KC would be maybe 3/4 of the way to building a championship team, and getting to the playoffs last year gave me a lot of hope. But now this team is going in the wrong direction.
Many on here will blame injuries. I disagree. Good teams overcome injuries. Good teams draft depth. Both our offensive and defensive lines are horrible. Just flat out bad. There is no excuse for this. None.
I posted 3 years ago that this team needed to build from inside out - build the lines first. I got shot down.
So who is accountable for this mess? Clark? Pioli? Haley?
With over 30 million in cap room, why couldn't we make some strides on getting our lines fixed?
WHY?
Why are we still trying to squeeze 4/3 players into a 3/4 defense?
WHY?
I'm not sure who is making the decisions on this team regarding player personnel, coaches, and philosophy, but whoever it is - is failing. Time to re-evaluate.

Let me start by addressing the issue of injuries.

Yes, a good team like The Packers can succeed with less significant player losses.

Their offense revolves around the QB and the passing game. Losing an insignificant RB will hardly decimate the offense.

Let's also keep in mind that that team was pretty well assembled when their minor rebuild started, several seasons before.

Basically, if The Packers' depth should be so tested at the most important position of their most successful aspect, meaning QB, then I assure you the outcome will be quite different.

Our offense revolves around Jammal Charles, and our running game. Losing Charles for the season is much more akin to The Colts losing Manning, then The Packers losing a RB.

And Eric Berry isn't just an unnamed LB. He was a Superstar of our defense, and set to improve.

Take Charles Woodson and Aaron Rodgers away from The Packers, plus some other key starters , then come and make a comparison. But, even then, The Packers are a team who has been far more filled-in as far as depth goes. So, while they will finish last in that scenario, their depth should mean that they would still be competitive.

The Chiefs are in the third season of a major rebuild, and have lost the best players they have on the team.

While I am nowhere near saying that I am impressed with anything, so far. I just don't agree that this team should be much better than they are at this point.

By next season, with another offseason to build, and a return of the most important players, I would agree that depth should be far better.

But not so good as to sustain the kind of losses we have had to this point in 2011.


I posted 3 years ago that this team needed to build from inside out - build the lines first. I got shot down.

Really? You had no support for that idea?

Myself, and about half of the other members of this site have ALWAYS been in favor of building in the trenches first.


With over 30 million in cap room, why couldn't we make some strides on getting our lines fixed?
WHY?


While I agree with this, in principal, I can't pretend like there hasn't been some work done to improve both lines. We have drafted an OG a C, and acquired OG Ryan Lilja.

And the D-line had a third, overall pick used, to accompany a fifth overall pick, and have two other draft picks from 2011.

How successful they have been in improving it, and rather or not the correct positions have been addressed, is arguable.

But there has been some work done.


Why are we still trying to squeeze 4/3 players into a 3/4 defense?
WHY?


Because we still have other holes to fill. We are quite thin at several positions. So filling the team in is going to come ahead of replacing guys who really haven't been too bad.

I basically agree with the specifics. But I disagree that we are ready to start over and try something new, only to expect another three years before bearing any fruit.

texaschief
11-26-2011, 04:15 PM
Pioli should stay. Haley needs to go. In fact, outside of Crennel, the entire coaching staff should be overhauled. Pioli just needs to make sure the coaches he hires and the schemes they want to implement are conducive to the current player's ability. Pioli shouldn't be given the green light for another rebuild if they've decided the current rebuild attempt is a failure. A coaching turnover shouldn't require a rebuild.

josh1971
11-26-2011, 08:30 PM
Pioli should stay. Haley needs to go. In fact, outside of Crennel, the entire coaching staff should be overhauled. Pioli just needs to make sure the coaches he hires and the schemes they want to implement are conducive to the current player's ability. Pioli shouldn't be given the green light for another rebuild if they've decided the current rebuild attempt is a failure. A coaching turnover shouldn't require a rebuild.

A coaching change wouldn't necessarily require a rebuild, but it does screw things up a bit at first, I would think, as a new head coach will bring his guys in for assistants, and start to implement his ideas for Offense/Defense.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to replace Haley, but he has one year left of his contract, and I don't see him going anywhere.

Haley's no Schottenheimer, but then... he's no Frank Ganz either.

Bike
11-26-2011, 11:02 PM
Their offense revolves around the QB and the passing game. Losing an insignificant RB will hardly decimate the offense.

Our offense revolves around Jammal Charles, and our running game.

This may be true, but therein lies the problem. We could have easily selected Aaron Rodgers with the 15th pick - but we didn't. Why can't the Chiefs have the same forsight as the Packers? We knew that Green wasn't getting any younger - why not draft a franchise QB as Green Bay did? But Noooo, we waited until the third round to draft Croyle. With Huard backing him up. This team has a long history of these kinds of blunderous moves.
And although Green Bay has an excellent passing game, they also have a pretty damn good running game. They are a complete team. They did it with sound coaching and excellent draft time decision-making. When we started this new regime, this team could have done the same kinds of things. We just didn't.
Injuries to your starting players, especially as many as GB (and KC) has had, is devastating to any team, no matter the position or philosophy of the team. Having a one dimentional offense as the Chiefs have is a fault in itself. I blame this mess squarely on Pioli. And he needs to get it fixed, and pretty damn quick.

chief31
11-26-2011, 11:34 PM
Pioli should stay. Haley needs to go. In fact, outside of Crennel, the entire coaching staff should be overhauled. Pioli just needs to make sure the coaches he hires and the schemes they want to implement are conducive to the current player's ability. Pioli shouldn't be given the green light for another rebuild if they've decided the current rebuild attempt is a failure. A coaching turnover shouldn't require a rebuild.

So you want a HC who has no say in anything? Have to run what we already have in place?

That eliminates anybody who would get another offer from another team.


This may be true, but therein lies the problem. We could have easily selected Aaron Rodgers with the 15th pick - but we didn't. Why can't the Chiefs have the same forsight as the Packers? We knew that Green wasn't getting any younger - why not draft a franchise QB as Green Bay did? But Noooo, we waited until the third round to draft Croyle. With Huard backing him up. This team has a long history of these kinds of blunderous moves.

Yeah. This is irrelevant to Haley and Pioli.

And there was nothing blunderous about passing on Rodgers, at that time.

In fact, The Packers were widely criticized for that pick.

The way it has worked out is, again, the extreme exception, not the norm.


And although Green Bay has an excellent passing game, they also have a pretty damn good running game. They are a complete team. They did it with sound coaching and excellent draft time decision-making.

They are currently ranked 25th in YPG (23rd in YPA), They ranked 24th in 2010 (25th in YPA), and were 14th (YPG and YPA) in 2009.

I would say they are a passing team, who is not good at running the ball. Which brings us right back to The irrelevance of a RB to that team.


When we started this new regime, this team could have done the same kinds of things. We just didn't.
Injuries to your starting players, especially as many as GB (and KC) has had, is devastating to any team, no matter the position or philosophy of the team. Having a one dimentional offense as the Chiefs have is a fault in itself. I blame this mess squarely on Pioli. And he needs to get it fixed, and pretty damn quick.

Like I said before, The Chiefs losing Jamaal Charles is a much bigger impact than The Packers losing Ryan Grant.

This offense was powered by Charles' unique abilities, as The Packers' offense is powered by Aaron Rodgers' unique abilities.

Should we be so dependant upon a RB? No. RB is an injury-prone position, with a short average career length.

But that is what happens when you have such a unique talent. His absence leaves a hole that is extremely difficult to fill.

Bike
11-26-2011, 11:54 PM
So you want a HC who has no say in anything? Have to run what we already have in place?

That eliminates anybody who would get another offer from another team.



Yeah. This is irrelevant to Haley and Pioli.

And there was nothing blunderous about passing on Rodgers, at that time.

In fact, The Packers were widely criticized for that pick.

The way it has worked out is, again, the extreme exception, not the norm.



They are currently ranked 25th in YPG (23rd in YPA), They ranked 24th in 2010 (25th in YPA), and were 14th (YPG and YPA) in 2009.

I would say they are a passing team, who is not good at running the ball. Which brings us right back to The irrelevance of a RB to that team.



Like I said before, The Chiefs losing Jamaal Charles is a much bigger impact than The Packers losing Ryan Grant.

This offense was powered by Charles' unique abilities, as The Packers' offense is powered by Aaron Rodgers' unique abilities.

Should we be so dependant upon a RB? No. RB is an injury-prone position, with a short average career length.

But that is what happens when you have such a unique talent. His absence leaves a hole that is extremely difficult to fill.
Well, I digress. Building solid offensive and defensive lines is hurting this team much more than losing a RB or a safety. We could have done it, we should have done it, and we didn't do it. This was a blunderous mistake. Almost as blunderous as bringing in a primadonna HC who has absolutely no idea on how to rebuild a NFL franchise. NONE.

hardcorechiefsfan
11-27-2011, 12:09 AM
Well, I digress. Building solid offensive and defensive lines is hurting this team much more than losing a RB or a safety. We could have done it, we should have done it, and we didn't do it. This was a blunderous mistake. Almost as blunderous as bringing in a primadonna HC who has absolutely no idea on how to rebuild a NFL franchise. NONE.
There is alot that the chiefs shoulda, coulda done. And you are on Haley's case? Why do people always think its the Coach's fault when the team is having a sucky season or seasons. If we had 53 guys that knew how to play as a team you would love Haley but instead we have a team of guys who didn't care how bad the team plays just as long as they get their paycheck. Ok, there are a few that I think are great(Bowe is not one of them), but not that many. Understand?

Bike
11-27-2011, 12:20 AM
There is alot that the chiefs shoulda, coulda done. And you are on Haley's case? Why do people always think its the Coach's fault when the team is having a sucky season or seasons. If we had 53 guys that knew how to play as a team you would love Haley but instead we have a team of guys who didn't care how bad the team plays just as long as they get their paycheck. Ok, there are a few that I think are great(Bowe is not one of them), but not that many. Understand?
Nope. Doesn't the HC run the team? Doesn't the HC game plan every week? Doesn't the HC make decisions on player personnel and assistant coaches? What exactly am I missing here?
Maybe I just don't understand.

hardcorechiefsfan
11-27-2011, 12:50 AM
Nope. Doesn't the HC run the team? Doesn't the HC game plan every week? Doesn't the HC make decisions on player personnel and assistant coaches? What exactly am I missing here?
Maybe I just don't understand.
The chiefs have hired people that can perform miracles with other teams(example: Vermiel)
Vermiel took what teams to the superbowl..? It didn't happen with the chiefs. Why...??? The team didn't have the mindset to be superbowl winners. Vermiel had to get out before the chiefs totally distroyed his win-loss record.
Of course he got too chummy with the players to be effective and maybe the superbowl experience clouded his judgement with the players, etc.
You say that the HC does the game plan, deals with assistant coaches, etc. Yes he does. But quite honestly, I doubt there is a HC out there that can change the chiefs into a winning team. The players themselves have to want to change. and become the winning team they can be if they take on the mindset of some of the most consistent NFL teams. If they want to.

Hayvern
11-27-2011, 01:25 AM
I cant however make an excuse for the fact that they arent just losing, but they are getting blown out!! 41-7, 48-3, 31-3 ( Scores of Buf, Det and Mia) Sh!tty teams are killing us. Someone up front needs to get their sh!t together and make something happen or get out of the way for someone who can!!

This exactly the problem, in previous years we have lost a lot of games but we were in those games, meaning a touchdown or two in most cases. This year, we are getting our asses handed to us.

TopekaRoy
11-27-2011, 02:13 AM
And although Green Bay has an excellent passing game, they also have a pretty damn good running game. They are a complete team.

The Packers do not have a pretty good running game (as has already been pointed out). The only reason they have any running game at all is because their passing game is so good that teams are forced to focus on that which softens them up somewhat against the run. Their best running backs, Starks and Grant, are ranked 22nd and 45th in yards per game and they wouldn't even be that good if they were frequently facing teams defenses that focused on stopping the run.

And the Packers are not a complete team. Their defense gives up a lot of yards but they overcome that somewhat by forcing a lot of turnovers. They simply outscore opponents with their passing game.


.

And there was nothing blunderous about passing on Rodgers, at that time.

In fact, The Packers were widely criticized for that pick.
And we passed on Tom Brady, too! If only the Chiefs had a crystal ball that could tell them how good college QBs will be 3 or 4 years after they are drafted. They'd be unstoppable!

TopekaRoy
11-27-2011, 02:37 AM
Well, I digress. Building solid offensive and defensive lines is hurting this team much more than losing a RB or a safety. We could have done it, we should have done it, and we didn't do it.

I'm not excusing the Chiefs for not building good lines but getting a great O-line is one of the hardest things in the NFL to do. You can have 4 great Offensive linemen and one bad one and the line would still suck. Great O-linemen are hard to find in free agency because when a team does get good linemen they tend to hang on to them. And in the draft, a first round pick is just as likely to be a bust as not, and a 5th rounder is just as likely to be very good as not. About the only thing you can do is draft a bunch of O=linemen every year and keep the best ones, but then the team suffers at other positions of need. The Bears have been trying to improve their O-line for years and it's still not too good.

Defensive linemen are a little bit easier to evaluate, but there usually aren't that many good ones coming out of college and most of them are either weak against the run or against the pass. i agree that both lines are vitally important to a team's success, but most teams have a tendency to use early picks on skill position players (QB, WR, RB, defensive backs) thinking they can get good linemen in later rounds and that just further exacerbates the problem. They are right about that but it's so hard to figure out which late round picks will be the good ones.

Lines tend to be only about as good as their weakest links and we have several weak links right now. Hopefully we get lucky in next years draft and can replace some of those links but we will also need some for the young players we have now to continue to develop and get better.

Bike
11-27-2011, 09:47 AM
Too many people on here are willing to just make excuses rather than demand change. I'm tired of excuses. I'm tired of losing. And I'm tired of getting blown out on our home field. For those that blame the players - I blame the execs that brought those players here in the first place. For those that blame the head coach, I blame the person that brought the head coach here in the first place. For those that blame the GM, I blame the person that brought the GM here in the first place. This team will more than likely finish 4-12 or 5-11. I place the blame on Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli.

wolfpack
11-27-2011, 11:50 AM
Hunt and Pioli are to blame. First hunt for being a tightwad,money hungery fool. I`m not saying break the bank but sign good FA`s. We havent been,aka Sabby. It seems year after year we bring up the rear in spending and now with 1st line hurt it shows.
Pioli has had 3 years. Granted not the longest time but we shouldbe better than we are. Makes me wonder if it was all bellycheat and the rest were just tag a longs.

chief31
11-27-2011, 12:10 PM
Too many people on here are willing to just make excuses rather than demand change. I'm tired of excuses. I'm tired of losing. And I'm tired of getting blown out on our home field. For those that blame the players - I blame the execs that brought those players here in the first place. For those that blame the head coach, I blame the person that brought the head coach here in the first place. For those that blame the GM, I blame the person that brought the GM here in the first place. This team will more than likely finish 4-12 or 5-11. I place the blame on Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli.

So now, after we have lost all those vital players for the year, NOW, you are predicting 5-11?

That was what I was expecting before they played a single game this season.

That is what I was expecting before Charles and Berry were injured.

So, for me, they are kind of ahead of schedule, since the injuries should have cost us another game, or two.

Do I blame the staff for it?

Sure, To a degree.

But, for the most part, I am blaming circumstance. We were over-confident after 10-6 from 2010, and we would need to figure out that we still had a lot of work to do.

I figured we would be knocked out of the playoffs by now, and, without the shiny prize to distract us, we could get our focus back, and resume the work on improving our game.

I figured it would take a while before the offense started to mesh with the new OC.

I just don't see anything that I was not prepared to see.

The two blow-outs to start the season were a bit of a shock. But not completely mind-boggling. Several teams started out not looking like they were supposed to, and have kind of pulled it together after bizzare starts.

And, beyond that, we have The Doplhins game.

One game, where both sides of the ball failed. And the offense has continued to perform poorly.

I don't see how that could shock anyone. Jamaal Charles is a truly unique talent, who succeeds where other good players would fail.

Thomas Jones looks like a loser in this offense, yet we all know better. Larry Johnson looked like a talentless hack, and JC came right in and started having big game, after big game.

When you remove that guy from your operations, there is no way to be surprised by some serious struggles.

I am not making excuses. I would have to think highly of Pioli, or Haley, to bother making excuses. And I do not.

I am simply pointing the reasons for it all, as I see it.

ctchiefsfan
11-27-2011, 12:12 PM
I'm as unhappy about this season as anyone. But I simply can't go along with the notion that Pioli and/or Haley need to go because of it.

The combination of the strike and the injuries to some of the best players we have has been devastating. The injuries we had in preseason and the first couple of weeks were bad enough and now we lose Cassel. WHAT A MESS!

IMO Haley should be back next year....but he should be back with the understanding that his job is on the line.

wolfpack
11-27-2011, 12:15 PM
after last years 10-6 year,against sub-500 teams people should have known we wernt ready just yet to play with the big boys.
But playing packers,pats,ect will make you better then playing sub-500 teams. We just dont have the players yet.

TopekaRoy
11-27-2011, 01:10 PM
Too many people on here are willing to just make excuses rather than demand change. I'm tired of excuses. I'm tired of losing. And I'm tired of getting blown out on our home field. For those that blame the players - I blame the execs that brought those players here in the first place. For those that blame the head coach, I blame the person that brought the head coach here in the first place. For those that blame the GM, I blame the person that brought the GM here in the first place. This team will more than likely finish 4-12 or 5-11. I place the blame on Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli.
Don't you blame Lamar Hunt for bringing the team to KC, giving birth to Clark and then getting old and dying, too?

Chiefster
11-27-2011, 01:23 PM
So now, after we have lost all those vital players for the year, NOW, you are predicting 5-11?

That was what I was expecting before they played a single game this season.

That is what I was expecting before Charles and Berry were injured.

So, for me, they are kind of ahead of schedule, since the injuries should have cost us another game, or two.

Do I blame the staff for it?

Sure, To a degree.

But, for the most part, I am blaming circumstance. We were over-confident after 10-6 from 2010, and we would need to figure out that we still had a lot of work to do.

I figured we would be knocked out of the playoffs by now, and, without the shiny prize to distract us, we could get our focus back, and resume the work on improving our game.

I figured it would take a while before the offense started to mesh with the new OC.

I just don't see anything that I was not prepared to see.

The two blow-outs to start the season were a bit of a shock. But not completely mind-boggling. Several teams started out not looking like they were supposed to, and have kind of pulled it together after bizzare starts.

And, beyond that, we have The Doplhins game.

One game, where both sides of the ball failed. And the offense has continued to perform poorly.

I don't see how that could shock anyone. Jamaal Charles is a truly unique talent, who succeeds where other good players would fail.

Thomas Jones looks like a loser in this offense, yet we all know better. Larry Johnson looked like a talentless hack, and JC came right in and started having big game, after big game.

When you remove that guy from your operations, there is no way to be surprised by some serious struggles.

I am not making excuses. I would have to think highly of Pioli, or Haley, to bother making excuses. And I do not.

I am simply pointing the reasons for it all, as I see it.

...This!

We are who we've always been.

KCraised
11-27-2011, 01:59 PM
Pioli should stay. Haley needs to go. In fact, outside of Crennel, the entire coaching staff should be overhauled. Pioli just needs to make sure the coaches he hires and the schemes they want to implement are conducive to the current player's ability. Pioli shouldn't be given the green light for another rebuild if they've decided the current rebuild attempt is a failure. A coaching turnover shouldn't require a rebuild.

Why outside of Crennel? Teams have been hanging some major points up on this defense. Wouldn't he be accountable, just like the other failings of this
Staff? Or are you thinking his defense is tired from all of our offense's inability to sustain a drive and keep them off the field? Just trying to understand why he gets a pass...

azchiefsfan
11-27-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm as unhappy about this season as anyone. But I simply can't go along with the notion that Pioli and/or Haley need to go because of it.

The combination of the strike and the injuries to some of the best players we have has been devastating. The injuries we had in preseason and the first couple of weeks were bad enough and now we lose Cassel. WHAT A MESS!

IMO Haley should be back next year....but he should be back with the understanding that his job is on the line.

And this is more or less what I am saying, with the caveat being we'd better see some improvement this year. I will say, again for the 4th time this week, I am not saying either Pioli or Haley should be fired, but I would like Hunt or someone high up in management say, "While injuries have caused us to lose some key pats of our offense and defense, we believe this team is under performing and expect our GM and head coach will be working diligently to get us back on the winning path." That statement would say that we are unhappy with the team play while acknowledging the injuries and let Pioli/Haley know that there ARE expectations and it's time for excuses to go and real progress to begin.

KCraised
11-27-2011, 02:56 PM
What's interesting is everyone's opinion on exactly where they think the source of the main issues are with this team's progression/direction and they are all over the board. Pretty much every conceivable reason has been said. And the sad thing is they all make sense. I sure as Hell wouldn't wanna be in charge of sorting this mess out this offseason....

KCraised
11-27-2011, 03:07 PM
after last years 10-6 year,against sub-500 teams people should have known we wernt ready just yet to play with the big boys.
But playing packers,pats,ect will make you better then playing sub-500 teams. We just dont have the players yet.
Yeah, this year seemed impossible when they released this years schedule. Maybe it's a good thing to play a lengthly string of playoff contenders to really expose our problems. This season is done so let's put some blatent light on our strengths and weaknesses and address them in the offseason. This might not be a bad thing to happen for good change for next year. Excellent point in playing contenders to make you better. Trying to find some positives from this and you made a good post.
Gonna be a cold one at Arrowhead tonight....I just hope for a win this game. Don't EVEN wanna hear it from all the bandwagon Steelers fans tomorrow...lol

Bike
11-27-2011, 08:34 PM
Don't you blame Lamar Hunt for bringing the team to KC, giving birth to Clark and then getting old and dying, too?
Nope. Don't recall mentioning Lamar. But thanks for the condescending reply just the same.

ctchiefsfan
11-27-2011, 09:35 PM
And this is more or less what I am saying, with the caveat being we'd better see some improvement this year. I will say, again for the 4th time this week, I am not saying either Pioli or Haley should be fired, but I would like Hunt or someone high up in management say, "While injuries have caused us to lose some key pats of our offense and defense, we believe this team is under performing and expect our GM and head coach will be working diligently to get us back on the winning path." That statement would say that we are unhappy with the team play while acknowledging the injuries and let Pioli/Haley know that there ARE expectations and it's time for excuses to go and real progress to begin.

GOOD POST!!!!!

:chiefs::chiefs::chiefs::chiefs:

drstandley31
11-27-2011, 11:58 PM
I think it's the inconsistancy at OC. Good teams have that. we so far don't

Bike
11-28-2011, 12:05 AM
I think it's the inconsistancy at OC. Good teams have that. we so far don't
Why do you think we have this inconsistancy? Could it have anything to do with the head coach?

drstandley31
11-28-2011, 12:09 AM
Yep. guess he can't get along with anybody. Starts there, and I'm about done with it.

Bike
11-28-2011, 12:13 AM
Yep. guess he can't get along with anybody. Starts there, and I'm about done with it.
I'm with ya.

Chiefster
11-28-2011, 12:48 AM
Why do you think we have this inconsistancy? Could it have anything to do with the head coach?

Good point. I have thought that for the last three years. I like Haley but he needs to let the OC do his job and concentrate on being the HC.

drstandley31
11-28-2011, 12:54 AM
He hasn't done much more than Herm, and I hated Herm. I like Haley's passion (which Herm did not have), but he doesn't seem to understand leadership and it shows with the revolving assistant coach door. I think we have some very good players, and we need a really good leader to get this entire organization to the next level.

Bike
11-28-2011, 12:56 AM
He hasn't done much more than Herm, and I hated Herm. I like Haley's passion (which Herm did not have), but he doesn't seem to understand leadership and it shows with the revolving assistant coach door. I think we have some very good players, and we need a really good leader to get this entire organization to the next level.
These are my thoughts also. Unfortunately, good leaders are hard to find.

matthewschiefs
11-28-2011, 01:00 AM
He hasn't done much more than Herm, and I hated Herm. I like Haley's passion (which Herm did not have), but he doesn't seem to understand leadership and it shows with the revolving assistant coach door. I think we have some very good players, and we need a really good leader to get this entire organization to the next level.


To me Haley has tempered his passion to much. Why? I don't no maybe it's the media being after him when he would get in guys faces and chew them out. I think that's why Haley has not been a good coach this year. We have seen way to much of the Herm it's ok face on the sideline and less of the letting guys no when they messed up. This team seems to respond to that type of coaching like Cassel did the time they got into it on the sideline. Haley has become way to much like herm for him to get anther year IMO

drstandley31
11-28-2011, 01:01 AM
Hmmmm, would be nice to see Cower on the sidelines in KC again.

hardcorechiefsfan
11-28-2011, 01:05 AM
Too many people on here are willing to just make excuses rather than demand change. I'm tired of excuses. I'm tired of losing...
Me too, I get tired of friends laughing when I speak of the chiefs winning

... And I'm tired of getting blown out on our home field...
Me too

... For those that blame the players - I blame the execs that brought those players here in the first place. For those that blame the head coach...
Bike, after this game I am starting to agree with you about Haley. Tonight he looked like he didn't care

... I blame the person that brought the head coach here in the first place. For those that blame the GM, I blame the person that brought the GM here in the first place. This team will more than likely finish 4-12 or 5-11. I place the blame on Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli.
Never thought of that idea but then Pioli was brought to help make a diffence since he came from a superbowl team. I don't really see much of a difference.

lovenflrefs1
11-28-2011, 01:07 AM
Hmmmm, would be nice to see Cower on the sidelines in KC again.

The only place you'd see The Chin is probably in Miami, unless they somehow win out.

drstandley31
11-28-2011, 01:25 AM
The only place you'd see The Chin is probably in Miami, unless they somehow win out.
Who knows. He, or some other quality coach may look at the talet this team has (counting the bus full of guys on IR), and decide this is a team they would win with. Not sure Miami is better in that dept than we are.

nigeriannightmare
11-28-2011, 01:26 AM
Yep. guess he can't get along with anybody. Starts there, and I'm about done with it.

My bros and i talked about this on thanksgiving. 3 yrs 3 oc's can we say doesnt get along well with others. This alone is a defining issue on haley as a hc.

TopekaRoy
11-28-2011, 02:40 AM
Don't you blame Lamar Hunt for bringing the team to KC, giving birth to Clark and then getting old and dying, too?

Nope. Don't recall mentioning Lamar. But thanks for the condescending reply just the same.
My reply wasn't meant to sound condescending.. In your previous post you didn't blame injuries and you gave the bad players a pass. You gave Haley a pass for not getting the bad players to play better.


For those that blame the players - I blame the execs that brought those players here in the first place. For those that blame the head coach, I blame the person that brought the head coach here in the first place. For those that blame the GM, I blame the person that brought the GM here in the first place. ... I place the blame on Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli.

So you blame Hunt for hiring Pioli and you blame Pioli for hiring Haley. Yet in another thread, you did blame Haley!

The problem is not the OC (although it is definetly part of the problem) - the problem is the HC. source (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18814&page=4) post #39 So you blame the head coach and then you say you don't blame the head coach; you blame the guy that hired him (Pioli).

You also blame Hunt for hiring Pioli. Do you think he hired a bad GM on purpose or do you think he is just incompetent? If you think he is trying his best, but he is just incompetent, then hiring Pioli is not his fault. Who do you blame for his lack of football acumen? His father (Lamar) taught him football and knew he would inherit the team. If you blame Clark for being the way he is why don't you blame the guy who made him the way he is? Do you think Clark should sell the team to someone who knows more about football since you blame him for the Chiefs not being a good team in spite of devastating injuries, and almost no preseason with a new OC?

tornadospotter
11-28-2011, 03:01 AM
Well the OC position seems to be a problem. Is the problem the OC, or the HC wanting to be the OC?

doobs_05
11-28-2011, 05:34 AM
The only reason why i think a new head coach might work or new staff is because the 49ers were pretty bad last year ....get a new head coach....and then they are 8-2 (or whatever it is).

garciakcfan
11-28-2011, 11:34 AM
Yes!!! Fire them all!! More turnover at the coaching positions would be great!!! If anything this year, our defense has been the bright spot!!! You wanna know why we gave up all those points?? How about our offense looking like garbage week in and week out?? How about the fact that our defense is constantly on the field and being put in horrible field positions... Get real people and watch and understand the game!!!! Do you realize how many times our offense has had drive killing mistakes?? Whether its a flag right after a first down pick up or a TURNOVER!!!!! This season was a wash after week 2!!! I'm just smart enough to realize it.... And they get a pass this year in my mind because of all the important injuries and lack of depth and the lack of legitimate second pass rusher!! It sucks but its the way it is....

70 chiefsfan70
11-28-2011, 11:39 AM
Yes!!! Fire them all!! More turnover at the coaching positions would be great!!! If anything this year, our defense has been the bright spot!!! You wanna know why we gave up all those points?? How about our offense looking like garbage week in and week out?? How about the fact that our defense is constantly on the field and being put in horrible field positions... Get real people and watch and understand the game!!!! Do you realize how many times our offense has had drive killing mistakes?? Whether its a flag right after a first down pick up or a TURNOVER!!!!! This season was a wash after week 2!!! I'm just smart enough to realize it.... And they get a pass this year in my mind because of all the important injuries and lack of depth and the lack of legitimate second pass rusher!! It sucks but its the way it is....


I feel your pain!

Chiefster
11-28-2011, 11:51 AM
Well the OC position seems to be a problem. Is the problem the OC, or the HC wanting to be the OC?

I think the latter, but that's just my opinion.

chief31
11-28-2011, 07:14 PM
He hasn't done much more than Herm, and I hated Herm. I like Haley's passion (which Herm did not have), but he doesn't seem to understand leadership and it shows with the revolving assistant coach door. I think we have some very good players, and we need a really good leader to get this entire organization to the next level.

Herm - From 10-6 to 9-7, to 4-12, to 2-14

Haley - From 2-14 to 4-12, to 10-6, to a disaster of injuries.

It is not remotely similar. Herm took a winner and turned it into a loser, and Haley has taken a loser, and made it into a winner.




To me Haley has tempered his passion to much. Why? I don't no maybe it's the media being after him when he would get in guys faces and chew them out. I think that's why Haley has not been a good coach this year. We have seen way to much of the Herm it's ok face on the sideline and less of the letting guys no when they messed up. This team seems to respond to that type of coaching like Cassel did the time they got into it on the sideline. Haley has become way to much like herm for him to get anther year IMO

He was 4-12 with all that "passion". He cooled it, and went 10-6.

And, like it, or not, our starters who were lost for the season have not come back yet. And there has been nothing available in free agency to try and make up for it either.

Getting tired of hearing it? It will stop when those superstar players are back.

Until then, the situation stays the same. Except that we have lost even more of our most important players.

Bike
11-28-2011, 11:56 PM
My reply wasn't meant to sound condescending.. In your previous post you didn't blame injuries and you gave the bad players a pass. You gave Haley a pass for not getting the bad players to play better.



So you blame Hunt for hiring Pioli and you blame Pioli for hiring Haley. Yet in another thread, you did blame Haley!
So you blame the head coach and then you say you don't blame the head coach; you blame the guy that hired him (Pioli).

You also blame Hunt for hiring Pioli. Do you think he hired a bad GM on purpose or do you think he is just incompetent? If you think he is trying his best, but he is just incompetent, then hiring Pioli is not his fault. Who do you blame for his lack of football acumen? His father (Lamar) taught him football and knew he would inherit the team. If you blame Clark for being the way he is why don't you blame the guy who made him the way he is? Do you think Clark should sell the team to someone who knows more about football since you blame him for the Chiefs not being a good team in spite of devastating injuries, and almost no preseason with a new OC?What are you blabbering about? If it makes it easier for you to understand, I blame the teams management, or lack thereof, for the situation the Chiefs find themselves in. Haley, Pioli, and Hunt. All three of 'em. There.

drstandley31
11-29-2011, 01:29 AM
Yes!!! Fire them all!! More turnover at the coaching positions would be great!!! If anything this year, our defense has been the bright spot!!! You wanna know why we gave up all those points?? How about our offense looking like garbage week in and week out?? How about the fact that our defense is constantly on the field and being put in horrible field positions... Get real people and watch and understand the game!!!! Do you realize how many times our offense has had drive killing mistakes?? Whether its a flag right after a first down pick up or a TURNOVER!!!!! This season was a wash after week 2!!! I'm just smart enough to realize it.... And they get a pass this year in my mind because of all the important injuries and lack of depth and the lack of legitimate second pass rusher!! It sucks but its the way it is....
Well thankfully you're so much smarter than the rest of us. Good thing you're around to keep us in line.