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SIC J
12-04-2011, 09:05 PM
1 play for 2.5 million. Is that a record? LOL

Any word on his status?

chief31
12-04-2011, 09:31 PM
1 play for 2.5 million. Is that a record? LOL

Any word on his status?

Better check with 2011 Peyton Manning. :lol:

SIC J
12-04-2011, 09:48 PM
Better check with 2011 Peyton Manning. :lol:

He holds the record for highest pay without playing at all. LOL

Vandelay
12-04-2011, 09:56 PM
His injury is 100% because of Todd Haleys stupidity.

He should have started and played the whole game. Instead gets thrown in on a gimmick play.
Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

For pete's sake let Stanzi start next week!

SIC J
12-04-2011, 10:08 PM
His injury is 100% because of Todd Haleys stupidity.

He should have started and played the whole game. Instead gets thrown in on a gimmick play.
Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

For pete's sake let Stanzi start next week!

Seriously? You're blaming that injury on Haley? LOL

Vandelay
12-04-2011, 10:12 PM
Seriously? You're blaming that injury on Haley? LOL
Yep.

TopekaRoy
12-04-2011, 11:04 PM
Yep.
Why do you think Palko would not have been hurt on the same play? And why do you think Orton would not have gotten hurt on that play if he started the game?

Show your work!

Vandelay
12-05-2011, 12:30 AM
Why do you think Palko would not have been hurt on the same play? And why do you think Orton would not have gotten hurt on that play if he started the game?

Show your work!
They never would have tried the play with Palko. Other than the hail mary, they never went downfield with him because he has a noodle arm.

If Orton had just started the game, and the Chiefs had completed some passes downfield already, loosend the defense, opened up the running game. Then the Bears might of had to actually play some coverage instead of sending the house.

SIC J
12-05-2011, 12:52 AM
They never would have tried the play with Palko. Other than the hail mary, they never went downfield with him because he has a noodle arm.

If Orton had just started the game, and the Chiefs had completed some passes downfield already, loosend the defense, opened up the running game. Then the Bears might of had to actually play some coverage instead of sending the house.

I didn't know you could predict the future. What's gonna happen next week? LOL

jap1
12-05-2011, 02:28 AM
They never would have tried the play with Palko. Other than the hail mary, they never went downfield with him because he has a noodle arm.

If Orton had just started the game, and the Chiefs had completed some passes downfield already, loosend the defense, opened up the running game. Then the Bears might of had to actually play some coverage instead of sending the house.

I doubt they wouldnt have tried the play if Orton started. Usually big trick plays like that are part of the game plan the whole week. Usually they see something in the game film of the defense that will make them want to run a reverse or flea flicker. A play like that that has a high risk of something going wrong (fumbled pitch back, sack, etc) needs to be practiced a few times in order for the coach to feel comfortable running it.

Jrudi
12-05-2011, 02:21 PM
His injury is 100% because of Todd Haleys stupidity.

He should have started and played the whole game. Instead gets thrown in on a gimmick play.
Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

For pete's sake let Stanzi start next week!

Well then I think we should just fire Haley for signalling over to the Bear's sideline letting Lovie Smith know that he needed to send that guy on a biltz.

Oh yeah, and for telling Orton to hit his hand on the defenders helmet.

we could have played a much better game, if those two items weren't in Haley's game plan for the week.

The hardest part of having that in the game plan, was that Orton dislocated his finer about 5 times this week simulating the exact same scenario in practice, so it was hard for him to grip the ball come game time in order to actually make the mishap believable... took some hard work, but man they sure did sell it, I actually thought it was just an accident, I think Orton and Haley will be getting some Grammy's next year for the production of that scence.

Damn that Todd Haley...:sSig_youtheman:

Vandelay
12-05-2011, 02:59 PM
I didn't know you could predict the future. What's gonna happen next week? LOL
If Palko plays, he will continue to suck.

chiefnut
12-05-2011, 03:23 PM
well if palko ran that play, he'd be out and orton would be the starting qb

chief31
12-05-2011, 07:14 PM
His injury is 100% because of Todd Haleys stupidity.

He should have started and played the whole game. Instead gets thrown in on a gimmick play.
Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

For pete's sake let Stanzi start next week!

Come on now.... You can't really mean that.

One play and Orton gets injured, and you say it's the HCs fault because he didn't have Orton out there for all the plays?

The fact is that Orton got injured on his first play. Had that been the first play from scrimmage, Palko would have played the rest of the game anyway.

Vandelay
12-05-2011, 07:33 PM
Come on now.... You can't really mean that.

One play and Orton gets injured, and you say it's the HCs fault because he didn't have Orton out there for all the plays?

The fact is that Orton got injured on his first play. Had that been the first play from scrimmage, Palko would have played the rest of the game anyway.
Obviously no one knows if Orton would, or would not have gotten hurt if he started the game.

But to think Palko gives us a better shot to win is stupid. I will stand by that.

Please don't say Palko won that game. It was the defense, and a hail mary.

Chiefster
12-05-2011, 07:35 PM
Obviously no one knows if Orton would, or would not have gotten hurt if he started the game.

But to think Palko gives us a better shot to win is stupid. I will stand by that.

Please don't say Palko won that game. It was the defense, and a hail mary.


More the idiot defender who swatted the ball out of Urlacher's hands than the hail Mary.

SIC J
12-05-2011, 07:41 PM
Obviously no one knows if Orton would, or would not have gotten hurt if he started the game.

But to think Palko gives us a better shot to win is stupid. I will stand by that.

Please don't say Palko won that game. It was the defense, and a hail mary.

Who has said that and what the hell does that have to do with the original topic of the thread? LOL

SIC J
12-05-2011, 07:43 PM
More the idiot defender who swatted the ball out of Urlacher's hands than the hail Mary.

Aren't they taught to swat the ball down? McCluster just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

chief31
12-05-2011, 09:42 PM
Obviously no one knows if Orton would, or would not have gotten hurt if he started the game.

But to think Palko gives us a better shot to win is stupid. I will stand by that.

Please don't say Palko won that game. It was the defense, and a hail mary.

You are going to stand by that, after the game was won with Palko?

So you are insinuating that there was a better than 100% chance that Orton would have won the game?

How did that go when Orton got into the game?

Seems like his chances were a tad bit below 101% of winning.

I mean... Palko has been a very bad QB. But he won, and Orton couldn't play a second down in the game.

It is a proven fact that Palko gave us the better chance to win that game.

Would I start Orton as soon as he is able to play?

Oh yeah.

But you are here trying to blame Haley for putting Orton in the game, instead of putting Orton in the game.

It seemed pretty obvious to me, that The Chiefs taught Orton a specific package of offensive plays, and brought him out when they thought it would be the most beneficial.

But they were not going to be able to call a full game with one set of offensive plays, so they were trying to blend him in.

But come on, Man. You can't be serious about Orton's injury being Haley's fault.

You just can't be.

nigeriannightmare
12-05-2011, 10:22 PM
Aren't they taught to swat the ball down? McCluster just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

Eric mangini showed on sports center that it was a designed play. Breaston was the lone chief jumping and u had 3 chief receivers looking for a tipped ball much like a defender boxing out looking at the glass for a rebound. Quite fascinating.when it was.broken down and the perfect circle that was formed by the chiefs receivers. Granted still a bit if luck thoigh.

SIC J
12-05-2011, 11:13 PM
Eric mangini showed on sports center that it was a designed play. Breaston was the lone chief jumping and u had 3 chief receivers looking for a tipped ball much like a defender boxing out looking at the glass for a rebound. Quite fascinating.when it was.broken down and the perfect circle that was formed by the chiefs receivers. Granted still a bit if luck thoigh.

Yeah I've always known that. You always have a couple players going for the ball and a couple looking for the tip.

Lazeye
12-05-2011, 11:33 PM
This is what I think about the issue. I like Haleys call on this because you have a D now switching to what they learned about Orton (slight panic mode) and then using a trick play...Bravo imo. Orton did look alittle off or slow which is to be expected on your first game back in action and due to this he got hurt. If we did not run the draw play to death then I think we stand a better chance scoring on that play. I would have called a bootleg to get orton into space away from the line for that pass.

Vandelay
12-05-2011, 11:48 PM
You are going to stand by that, after the game was won with Palko?

So you are insinuating that there was a better than 100% chance that Orton would have won the game?

How did that go when Orton got into the game?

Seems like his chances were a tad bit below 101% of winning.

I mean... Palko has been a very bad QB. But he won, and Orton couldn't play a second down in the game.

It is a proven fact that Palko gave us the better chance to win that game.

Would I start Orton as soon as he is able to play?

Oh yeah.

But you are here trying to blame Haley for putting Orton in the game, instead of putting Orton in the game.

It seemed pretty obvious to me, that The Chiefs taught Orton a specific package of offensive plays, and brought him out when they thought it would be the most beneficial.

But they were not going to be able to call a full game with one set of offensive plays, so they were trying to blend him in.

But come on, Man. You can't be serious about Orton's injury being Haley's fault.

You just can't be.If you think the chances of the defense holding the opposition to 3 points, and Palko completing a hail mary every week are 100% then by all means, keep running him out there.

chief31
12-06-2011, 12:41 AM
If you think the chances of the defense holding the opposition to 3 points, and Palko completing a hail mary every week are 100% then by all means, keep running him out there.

I didn't say that. I didn't hint at that.

But good job of trying to take the focus off you, and your idea that Orton's injury is Haley's fault.

:lol:

TopekaRoy
12-06-2011, 04:36 AM
More the idiot defender who swatted the ball out of Urlacher's hands than the hail Mary.That was Chris Conte. He was just doing what he is supposed to do - Swat the ball down. It just back fired.


Aren't they taught to swat the ball down? McCluster just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

Normally you would just swat the ball down because there is no reason to catch it with no time left in the half. Lovie Smith said that the players have the option of catching the ball in that situation and they are to use their best judgment on whether to catch it or swat it away.

In this case intercepting the ball would have been the better option because it eliminates any chance of a receiver getting the tip and Brian would have easily caught it if Conte hadn't swatted it into McCluster's lap. Brian says he was trying to swat it down, too, but I think he is just saying that to take some of the heat off of Conte. He says he's done that 100 times and that is the first time this has happened. Even if he was trying to swat it down, I believe he would have swatted it straight down and McCluster wouldn't have caught it if Conte hadn't come over the top of him.

Hail Marys are a lot like onside kicks. You get as many people around the ball as you can and hope to get a hand on it. Dexter deserves a lot of credit, nor so much for being in the right place, but for being alert and reacting quickly enough to hang on to the ball when it was tipped his way.

Seek
12-06-2011, 01:39 PM
His injury is 100% because of Todd Haleys stupidity.

He should have started and played the whole game. Instead gets thrown in on a gimmick play.
Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

For pete's sake let Stanzi start next week!

Really, 100% Haley. No credit to Bill Muir, for calling the play and also being the Offensive Line coach that failed to teach the team to block that play.

Chiefster
12-06-2011, 03:12 PM
That was Chris Conte. He was just doing what he is supposed to do - Swat the ball down. It just back fired.



Normally you would just swat the ball down because there is no reason to catch it with no time left in the half. Lovie Smith said that the players have the option of catching the ball in that situation and they are to use their best judgment on whether to catch it or swat it away.

In this case intercepting the ball would have been the better option because it eliminates any chance of a receiver getting the tip and Brian would have easily caught it if Conte hadn't swatted it into McCluster's lap. Brian says he was trying to swat it down, too, but I think he is just saying that to take some of the heat off of Conte. He says he's done that 100 times and that is the first time this has happened. Even if he was trying to swat it down, I believe he would have swatted it straight down and McCluster wouldn't have caught it if Conte hadn't come over the top of him.

Hail Marys are a lot like onside kicks. You get as many people around the ball as you can and hope to get a hand on it. Dexter deserves a lot of credit, nor so much for being in the right place, but for being alert and reacting quickly enough to hang on to the ball when it was tipped his way.

Yeah, I get that but when a team mate has a sure INT it's best to just let him have it. Although, I'm sure that's easier said than done.

...And, good point.

TopekaRoy
12-06-2011, 06:23 PM
Yeah, I get that but when a team mate has a sure INT it's best to just let him have it. Although, I'm sure that's easier said than done.
Absolutely. There is a lot of confusion there. Everybody is trying to get a hand on the ball, Bears are trying to knock it down/away and Chiefs are trying to catch it or tip it to a teammate. I'm sure he didn't realize that it would be an easy catch for Brian. He couldn't just stand there and watch and his football instincts took over, But Conte came in for an injured Major Wright and had the most tackles of any defender, so most of the time his aggressiveness was a good thing.

We see this happen all of the time in basketball. A player has an easy defensive rebound and his teammate tips it away from him right to an opponent for an easy dunk. But that's only 2 points out of 100 - not 6 out of 10!

chief31
12-06-2011, 06:39 PM
Brian says he was trying to swat it down, too, but I think he is just saying that to take some of the heat off of Conte. He says he's done that 100 times and that is the first time this has happened. Even if he was trying to swat it down, I believe he would have swatted it straight down and McCluster wouldn't have caught it if Conte hadn't come over the top of him.


I have watched the reply several times, and I can't find any way to suggest that Urlacher had any intentions of catching that ball. And his having said he was trying to knock it down only seals it, for me.

But, as for rather Urlacher would have batted it straight down.... That's like saying Orton would have thrown a TD, had his arm not been hit as he threw.

It's just impossible to say.

For my money, I think the defenders should be trying to bat the ball toward a nearby sideline/back of the endzone.

If there is no boundary nearby, then I would be trying to catch the ball, with no receiver in direct contention for the ball.

I never did like the "knock it down" theory.

____________________________

But what I found the most intriguing about that play is how referees refuse to acknowledge the rules of Pass Interference on such plays.

Why is that rule abandoned on such plays?

I know that it would be "a cheap shot" to actually call it. But then, it is a cheap shot to call it, under any other circumstances, as well.

Baldwin was being blocked from the ball the whole time the pass was in the air. It's blatant PI. Yet, because the rule is so horrible, they refuse to enforce it under specific circumstances.

I don't think they should be awarding an automatic 1st and Goal for it. But I think the fact that they refuse to play by the rules for that situation only emphasizes what a terrible rule it is, for all circumstances.

TopekaRoy
12-06-2011, 07:00 PM
But what I found the most intriguing about that play is how referees refuse to acknowledge the rules of Pass Interference on such plays.

Why is that rule abandoned on such plays?
I don't see how you could call PI on a hail Mary. There are too many people in one spot and they all have a right to catch the ball. If you call it at all you would have to call offsetting penalties and just replay the down and that would just automatically penalize the offense because there is no time left on the clock.

What I want to know is, why wasn't Carr called for pass interference when he pushed Johnny Knox aside way before the ball arrived on his interception? It was well beyond 5 yards past the line of scrimmage and it wasn't just incidental contact going for the ball. If an offensive player pushes off to create space for the catch it's PI every time a ref sees it.

chief31
12-06-2011, 09:24 PM
I don't see how you could call PI on a hail Mary. There are too many people in one spot and they all have a right to catch the ball. If you call it at all you would have to call offsetting penalties and just replay the down and that would just automatically penalize the offense because there is no time left on the clock.

What I want to know is, why wasn't Carr called for pass interference when he pushed Johnny Knox aside way before the ball arrived on his interception? It was well beyond 5 yards past the line of scrimmage and it wasn't just incidental contact going for the ball. If an offensive player pushes off to create space for the catch it's PI every time a ref sees it.

Perhaps because Carr did not push, but just brought his arm into position.

You are just fooling though, right?

Just goofing because you think I wanted PI called on the hail mary?

I didn't want it called.

I just hate how the rules are dropped from the game, just to keep it from being obvious how stupid the rule is.

And, on that play, only Baldwin is being interfered with, and it is not even in the crowd, but upon approach. It's blatant, because the defender knows, just as everybody does, that there will be no PI penalties on those plays.

TopekaRoy
12-07-2011, 03:05 AM
Perhaps because Carr did not push, but just brought his arm into position.

Seriously? Here is a link to the play. NFL Game Center: Kansas City Chiefs at Chicago Bears - 2011 Week 13 (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011120401/2011/REG13/chiefs@bears)
Go to that page and click on "Hanie intercepted" on the right and watch it again. The announcer even says "Look. He'll shove Knox past then go up at the high point for the football."

I saw him push Knox. The announcer saw him push Knox. How can you not see that? He clearly pushes Knox with his left arm before stepping in front of him to catch the ball. That's the very definition of pass interference.

okikcfan
12-07-2011, 01:47 PM
I'm not to sure what the big deal is. Slug fest in the end zone over a Hail Marry. We got it we won, game over. I'm not crying. As far as Orton goes the only ones to blame are the O-Line. No protection.

Seek
12-07-2011, 06:52 PM
I don't see how you could call PI on a hail Mary. There are too many people in one spot and they all have a right to catch the ball. If you call it at all you would have to call offsetting penalties and just replay the down and that would just automatically penalize the offense because there is no time left on the clock.

What I want to know is, why wasn't Carr called for pass interference when he pushed Johnny Knox aside way before the ball arrived on his interception? It was well beyond 5 yards past the line of scrimmage and it wasn't just incidental contact going for the ball. If an offensive player pushes off to create space for the catch it's PI every time a ref sees it.

Because Carr was watching the ball the whole time and had position to make the play. The defender is allowed to make contact when they have position to make the play.

chief31
12-07-2011, 07:17 PM
Seriously? Here is a link to the play. NFL Game Center: Kansas City Chiefs at Chicago Bears - 2011 Week 13 (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011120401/2011/REG13/chiefs@bears)
Go to that page and click on "Hanie intercepted" on the right and watch it again. The announcer even says "Look. He'll shove Knox past then go up at the high point for the football."

I saw him push Knox. The announcer saw him push Knox. How can you not see that? He clearly pushes Knox with his left arm before stepping in front of him to catch the ball. That's the very definition of pass interference.

I'm sorry. I thought, for sure, that you had to be just kidding.

And, I now insist that you must be kidding.

Does his hand brush Knox as Knox goes by?

Yes.

But there is no push off.

Leave the announcers out of it. They prove themselves to be clueless every game.

He touches Knox, but his arm never even slightly extends.

But, if you want to point out an actual mistake by the refs, they called defensive holding on a Chiefs 3rd & 15 against Tillman, on Bowe, giving The Chiefs an automatic 1st Down.

That was a bad call.

That drive was extended by 6:17, 81 yards, and three points.

But Carr's INT was clean.

TopekaRoy
12-07-2011, 08:54 PM
Does his hand brush Knox as Knox goes by?

Yes.

But there is no push off.

Leave the announcers out of it. They prove themselves to be clueless every game.

He touches Knox, but his arm never even slightly extends.
I thought I misread this so I had to read it again. Then I thought I was seeing things so I went back and looked at the video again. At 0:29 into the video, you can see Carr clearly pushing Knox out of the way with his arm more than slightly extended. I paused the video, used <prt scrn> and saved it to my desktop using paint, opened a Photobucket account and uploaded a cropped image just to make it easy for you!

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd376/TopekaRoy/PI.png
If you watch the video you will also notice Knox go flying right after this contact is made.

I'm not criticizing Carr. He made a great play. The thing is, he is so much bigger and stronger than Knox that he didn't even have to push him away. If he just went directly for the ball, he would have got it anyway. He pushed off and got away with it. Good job. Tony Gonzalez used to do that all the time on the other side of the ball, and get away with it.


But, if you want to point out an actual mistake by the refs, they called defensive holding on a Chiefs 3rd & 15 against Tillman, on Bowe, giving The Chiefs an automatic 1st Down.

That was a bad call.
Completely irrelevant. There were lots of bad calls (as there are in most games). I thought we were talking about this particular play.

But Carr's INT was clean.

Not really.

Listen, I'm not blaming the Bears loss on that one play or even saying it contributed to the loss. The pass should have never been thrown in the first place. especially with Knox as the intended target. Everyone knows that the biggest "knock" on Knox (see what I did there? :D) is his inability to fight for contested passes. If a defender is close enough he can wait for Johnny to catch the ball and just rip it out of his hands. All I'm saying is "technically" it was pass interference and it could have been called, but it wasn't.

chief31
12-07-2011, 09:38 PM
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd376/TopekaRoy/PI.png
If you watch the video you will also notice Knox go flying right after this contact is made.

:lol:

Alright.

I am done with this. There is nothing there.

But you have fun watching that shove, over and over again.:lol:

chief31
12-07-2011, 09:49 PM
I don't see how you could call PI on a hail Mary.

I don't see how it could not be called.

The rule is pretty clear about it, and when there is an obvious violation of that rule, how can you opt to ignore it?

On this particular play, Baldwin is being held for several steps. It is illegal, and should not be allowed.

My whole point about it, though, is that the consequences of pass interference are so ridiculous, that The NFL has to close their eyes to their own rule, or risk every other "hail mary" resulting in a 1st & 10 for the offense.

Just like the resulting penalty for the defensive holding against Tillman, where a penalty within five yards results in an automatic first down.

I don't like it because it is so incredibly biased against defense, as there is no automatic fourth down penalty, even for the defensive pass interference, and because it is, as it was from the start, a cheap ploy to get more passing offense. Which, at the time, was to try and compete with the ridiculous high scores in arena football.

TopekaRoy
12-07-2011, 11:39 PM
:lol:

Alright.

I am done with this. There is nothing to support my argument.

But you have fun watching that shove, over and over again.:lol:


I fixed it for you :lol:


I don't see how it could not be called.

The rule is pretty clear about it, and when there is an obvious violation of that rule, how can you opt to ignore it?

On this particular play, Baldwin is being held for several steps. It is illegal, and should not be allowed.
I agree with you here. I missed that in your original post. But if it happened away from the scrum where the ball was being thrown to then he should have been called for holding, or illegal contact in that case. My guess is the refs saw it and let it go because it occurred at the end of the half but it should have been called and followed with one untimed play.

I was only talking about contact in the crowd where everybody is pushing everybody else to try to get the ball. I guess the rule is "modified" just in that situation, like when a QB spikes the ball to stop the clock he is not penalized for intentional grounding even though that is exactly what he is doing.


My whole point about it, though, is that the consequences of pass interference are so ridiculous, that The NFL has to close their eyes to their own rule, or risk every other "hail mary" resulting in a 1st & 10 for the offense.

Just like the resulting penalty for the defensive holding against Tillman, where a penalty within five yards results in an automatic first down.

I don't like it because it is so incredibly biased against defense, as there is no automatic fourth down penalty, even for the defensive pass interference, and because it is, as it was from the start, a cheap ploy to get more passing offense. Which, at the time, was to try and compete with the ridiculous high scores in arena football.
Again we have 100% agreement. In college PI is still a 15 yd penalty and automatic 1st down. I like that better but I can see the argument that you are really penalizing the offense because they could have had 40, 50 yards or more had the infraction not occurred instead of just the 15.

I've been watching football since 1968, so I remember when they played "real" football. Unfortunately your average meathead fan likes lots of scoring and the rules have been changed to favor the offense, as well as changes being made to protect players from unnecessary injury which have had the same effect.

I'm all in favor of avoiding injury but football is supposed to be a hard collision full contact sport and the risk of injury, even with all the rule changes, is always present, as we've seen all too clearly this year.

I still love football and the new rules have in some ways made the game more exciting, although I think hard hits, sacks, and goal line stops can be just as exciting and you have to look no further than last weeks Chiefs - Bears game for evidence of that.

Todays game is not really better or worxe than it was in the '70s. but it is much different.

Chiefster
12-07-2011, 11:52 PM
:lol: I love this thread!

TopekaRoy
12-08-2011, 12:03 AM
:lol: I love this thread!
Are we talking too much about Kyle Orton? :lol:

Blah blah tangent, blah blah sidetracked and such, blah blah one thing leads to another, blah ....

Chiefster
12-08-2011, 12:04 AM
Are we talking too much about Kyle Orton? :lol:

Blah blah tangent, blah blah sidetracked and such, blah blah one thing leads to another, blah ....

That's about it, but then again I'm easily entertained. :lol: