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View Full Version : Pioli takes responsiblity for lack of depth



marloweopatchiefs
12-13-2011, 05:28 PM
Scott Pioli -- Blame me for Kansas City Chiefs' lack of depth - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7349484/scott-pioli-blame-kansas-city-chiefs-lack-depth)

Chiefster
12-13-2011, 05:30 PM
No problem; I do blame him. :lol:

marloweopatchiefs
12-13-2011, 05:31 PM
Also states that clark expects results quickly. So pioli knows his next choice needs to be the right one or it's his head.

nicfre2011
12-13-2011, 05:45 PM
IMO, Scott Pioli forced Todd Haley to fall on his sword and in keeping with the analogy, with his "acceptance of blame for the lack of depth" he is falling on what is essentially a sliver for Clark Hunt.

I firmly believe (and have mentioned this before), I believe that the big draw that Clark Hunt initially had to Scott Pioli and the "Patriot Way" was the perceived ability to make "diamonds out of coal" to get the most impact from player personnel talent with the least hit on the bottom line.

Of course Pioli has signed Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, Jamaal Charles, and most recently Brandon Flowers to long term contracts, but the fact remains we are currently right around $30 million under the cap right now. Keep in mind that this year and next year (IIRC) there is no team-by-team salary minimum, just the league-wide spending must hit certain minimum thresholds. But the owners that want to pocket the allowed "savings" are banking on the big market teams to spend more in player salaries to balance the overall league spending out.

Again, IIRC, Clark wanted to get public funding for the stadium rennovations but IIRC, that failed. As a businessman, he wants to recoup the money he had to spend on the stadium.

Pioli got caught with the injuries this year...and tried to make up for the lack of depth with for example, the Jake O'Connell/Anthony Becht flavor of the week game over and over.

It is fairly apparent to me that Hunt is taking advantage of the lack of a salary "floor" and I don't get an overwhelming feeling that next year is going to be any different.

#58ChiefsFan
12-13-2011, 06:02 PM
Oddly that doesn't make me feel any better, sounds just like Haley did. Heres an idea Scott, we all know your to blame so shut up and fix the damn thing.

AkChief49
12-13-2011, 06:05 PM
Oddly that doesn't make me feel any better, sounds just like Haley did. Heres an idea Scott, we all know your to blame so shut up and fix the damn thing.
Yeah, what #58 said!!!

matthewschiefs
12-13-2011, 06:14 PM
He should be blamed and I think most are blameing him

kcvet
12-13-2011, 07:00 PM
I wanna watch the vid but it says "sorry!not authorized"

guess you have to create an account????

wolfpack
12-13-2011, 07:04 PM
pioli is part to blame. like all problems there is a "root","cancer" at the heart. his name is tight-wad,cheap-*** clark hunt. pioli may say it starts and stops with him but it dosent. it not just last year but has been building for years. it just caught up with him this year.

chief31
12-13-2011, 07:28 PM
I don't see firing the other guy as taking responsibility.

If you take But I think the fact that Pioli is expressing concern about his position with the team is ridiculous.

As with any personal relationship, gone bad, with little inside information, I have to give 50% of the blame for his and Todd Haley's "falling out" to Pioli.

And, as stated above, Hunt is at the root of it all. (Not that I think this team was is bad shape)

Not that spending on FAs is some sort of cure-all, but it is one of the biggest tools in the GMs arsenal.

But again, I was not upset with 5-8. It seemed completely appropriate, considering the situation.

Hayvern
12-13-2011, 10:31 PM
Well, if you are not going to address the offensive line then you better have a steady supply of running backs and quarterbacks to throw into the game.

Seems pretty academic to me, maybe I should pick up the phone?

Really though, if I had one question for Pioli it would be:

"Do you really think you have the 5 guys on the offensive line that you need to win football games?" I would just like an honest answer to that question.

matthewschiefs
12-13-2011, 10:36 PM
I don't see firing the other guy as taking responsibility.

The other guy was fired for not coaching the talent that is on this team. Say what you will about the injuries but this team is way more talented then 31-3 Dolphins or 48-3 Lions.


But Yes If all the rumors about the lack of a relationship are true then 50% of that blame has to go on Pioli. I think 50% of the blame for this whole mess can go on him.

Ryfo18
12-13-2011, 10:41 PM
Well when you are in charge of the personnel decisions, yes, that would be your fault.

chief31
12-13-2011, 11:37 PM
The other guy was fired for not coaching the talent that is on this team. Say what you will about the injuries but this team is way more talented then 31-3 Dolphins or 48-3 Lions.


But Yes If all the rumors about the lack of a relationship are true then 50% of that blame has to go on Pioli. I think 50% of the blame for this whole mess can go on him.

The talent that is on this team is out for the year.

And no, in case you have not been paying attention to this team, they are not better than anybody without Charles.

matthewschiefs
12-14-2011, 12:06 AM
The talent that is on this team is out for the year.

And no, in case you have not been paying attention to this team, they are not better than anybody without Charles.



They might not be better but are they 28 points worse then the Dolphins? Are they 45 points worse then the Lions. Are they 34 points Worse then the Bills? Pioli failed to get depth on this team. He is to blame for that. And at this point all we can hope is that Clark Hunt is making him pay for that in some way. But Haley was not coaching this team to play at there best. He was fired for that.

TopekaRoy
12-14-2011, 07:15 AM
Good for him. Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery.

He knows the lack of depth was his fault, but does he know how to fix it?

nicfre2011
12-14-2011, 11:26 AM
Good for him. Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery.

He knows the lack of depth was his fault, but does he know how to fix it?

Sign more Patriot retreads!! LOL

Jrudi
12-14-2011, 11:48 AM
I think with this talk you could really see us make a push next year to bring in FA's that could have a big impact. (I think Pioli's job is depending on us winning next year)

Also...I just wanted to point out that the core talent on this team was brought in by Herm. I'm not saying Pioli hasn't brought in any decent players (Moeaki, Houston, Succop etc.) But he has had his fair share of whoopsies (Jackson, Alex Magee, Donald Washington, Quentin Lawrence, Colin Brown etc.)

Core Players brought in by Herm: Bowe, Hali, Dorsey, Albert, Flowers, Carr, Charles, Richardson

Not to mention DJ being drafted by the Vermile era.

Pioli is reaping the rewards of previous coaches not being given enough time to implement their plans.

Just saying that with the 2009 Draft being horrible, the 2010 being fairly decent, and this last one the jury is still out (Houston is looking good, Baldwin can't be graded cus we can't get him the Ball, Hudson has stepped in and done well, Powe isn't cracking the active roster, and Brown is just depth) I think he needs to make a big impact this off-season in both the draft and Free Agency.

nicfre2011
12-14-2011, 12:05 PM
I think with this talk you could really see us make a push next year to bring in FA's that could have a big impact. (I think Pioli's job is depending on us winning next year)

Also...I just wanted to point out that the core talent on this team was brought in by Herm. I'm not saying Pioli hasn't brought in any decent players (Moeaki, Houston, Succop etc.) But he has had his fair share of whoopsies (Jackson, Alex Magee, Donald Washington, Quentin Lawrence, Colin Brown etc.)

Core Players brought in by Herm: Bowe, Hali, Dorsey, Albert, Flowers, Carr, Charles, Richardson

Not to mention DJ being drafted by the Vermile era.

Pioli is reaping the rewards of previous coaches not being given enough time to implement their plans.

Just saying that with the 2009 Draft being horrible, the 2010 being fairly decent, and this last one the jury is still out (Houston is looking good, Baldwin can't be graded cus we can't get him the Ball, Hudson has stepped in and done well, Powe isn't cracking the active roster, and Brown is just depth) I think he needs to make a big impact this off-season in both the draft and Free Agency.

Very good post.

OPLookn
12-14-2011, 12:33 PM
I think with this talk you could really see us make a push next year to bring in FA's that could have a big impact. (I think Pioli's job is depending on us winning next year)

Also...I just wanted to point out that the core talent on this team was brought in by Herm. I'm not saying Pioli hasn't brought in any decent players (Moeaki, Houston, Succop etc.) But he has had his fair share of whoopsies (Jackson, Alex Magee, Donald Washington, Quentin Lawrence, Colin Brown etc.)

Core Players brought in by Herm: Bowe, Hali, Dorsey, Albert, Flowers, Carr, Charles, Richardson

Not to mention DJ being drafted by the Vermile era.

Pioli is reaping the rewards of previous coaches not being given enough time to implement their plans.

Just saying that with the 2009 Draft being horrible, the 2010 being fairly decent, and this last one the jury is still out (Houston is looking good, Baldwin can't be graded cus we can't get him the Ball, Hudson has stepped in and done well, Powe isn't cracking the active roster, and Brown is just depth) I think he needs to make a big impact this off-season in both the draft and Free Agency.

I'll only agree in principle. Herm's guys have had the necessary time to grow and show what they've got. Pioli's 2010 and 2011 drafts have done extremely well with all 2010 players currently playing or having major roles. The 2011 draft still is out but Baldwin and Houston are starting and Hudson has played rotationally and will start when Weigmann retires if he doesn't replace him this next year.

As someone said 50% of the people drafted in the 4th round or later aren't playing in the NFL after 3 years. Jalil Brown has been playing special teams and I don't really see him moving (drafted for depth), Stanzi (drafted for backup or future QB and needs time), Miller (LB) and Powe (NT) were drafted for development/backups and Shane Bannon didn't make the team.

Everyone but one player in the 2010 and 2011 drafts are still with the team and playing a role or in the wings to play a role. To me that says that Pioli came in and we didn't have all of our starters let alone depth. Herm got us going, no doubt about that but Herm started from scratch (excluding DJ). So Pioli after 3 years shouldn't be expected to have a stud starting team with backups that can step in and be the new cog in the machine. In another 2 years if I'm still saying that I'm wondering if Pioli is the guy.

Overall Pioli has been doing a good job but didn't have a lot of time when he got here to make major decisions. We saw that in his hiring of Haley and his 2009 draft (hindsight is 20/20 of course). Pioli now has sufficient time to hire the "right" coach and prepare for the draft still. If he screws up this time then yeah, it's on him. Past that I'll agree if someone says I'm drinking the koolaid because I think he's been doing just fine.

70 chiefsfan70
12-14-2011, 12:51 PM
I think with this talk you could really see us make a push next year to bring in FA's that could have a big impact. (I think Pioli's job is depending on us winning next year)

Also...I just wanted to point out that the core talent on this team was brought in by Herm. I'm not saying Pioli hasn't brought in any decent players (Moeaki, Houston, Succop etc.) But he has had his fair share of whoopsies (Jackson, Alex Magee, Donald Washington, Quentin Lawrence, Colin Brown etc.)

Core Players brought in by Herm: Bowe, Hali, Dorsey, Albert, Flowers, Carr, Charles, Richardson

Not to mention DJ being drafted by the Vermile era.

Pioli is reaping the rewards of previous coaches not being given enough time to implement their plans.

Just saying that with the 2009 Draft being horrible, the 2010 being fairly decent, and this last one the jury is still out (Houston is looking good, Baldwin can't be graded cus we can't get him the Ball, Hudson has stepped in and done well, Powe isn't cracking the active roster, and Brown is just depth) I think he needs to make a big impact this off-season in both the draft and Free Agency.


Very well said, except as mentioned by others, OL and DL can't be expected to step in and start, unless they are top 5 picks and even then it usually takes a couple of seasons to really see them excell.

But overall...............BRILLIANT!

TopekaRoy
12-14-2011, 02:31 PM
I think with this talk you could really see us make a push next year to bring in FA's that could have a big impact.
...

I like your way of thinking, a lot. If you are going to publicly take responsibility for "lack of depth," then you are admitting that what you have done in the past didn't work. That means you are committing yourself to doing something different from this point forward and with the one-time-only ability to add last year's unused cap space to next years spending limit, we will be in a position to throw more money at FA's than any other team in the NFL.

Pioli still needs to use his head. He shouldn't go after FAs at positions we don't need or over spend just to get middle of the pack FAs or players who are near the end of their careers, but nobody will be "out of reach" because we can't afford him or getting him will put us over the cap.

This is all coming together quite nicely. Now we just need the right coaches and the sky's the limit.

chief31
12-14-2011, 07:00 PM
But he has had his fair share of whoopsies (Jackson, Alex Magee, Donald Washington, Quentin Lawrence, Colin Brown etc.)



Tyson Jackson has been very good in 2011.

Jrudi
12-14-2011, 07:36 PM
I'll only agree in principle. Herm's guys have had the necessary time to grow and show what they've got. Pioli's 2010 and 2011 drafts have done extremely well with all 2010 players currently playing or having major roles. The 2011 draft still is out but Baldwin and Houston are starting and Hudson has played rotationally and will start when Weigmann retires if he doesn't replace him this next year.

As someone said 50% of the people drafted in the 4th round or later aren't playing in the NFL after 3 years. Jalil Brown has been playing special teams and I don't really see him moving (drafted for depth), Stanzi (drafted for backup or future QB and needs time), Miller (LB) and Powe (NT) were drafted for development/backups and Shane Bannon didn't make the team.

Everyone but one player in the 2010 and 2011 drafts are still with the team and playing a role or in the wings to play a role. To me that says that Pioli came in and we didn't have all of our starters let alone depth. Herm got us going, no doubt about that but Herm started from scratch (excluding DJ). So Pioli after 3 years shouldn't be expected to have a stud starting team with backups that can step in and be the new cog in the machine. In another 2 years if I'm still saying that I'm wondering if Pioli is the guy.

Overall Pioli has been doing a good job but didn't have a lot of time when he got here to make major decisions. We saw that in his hiring of Haley and his 2009 draft (hindsight is 20/20 of course). Pioli now has sufficient time to hire the "right" coach and prepare for the draft still. If he screws up this time then yeah, it's on him. Past that I'll agree if someone says I'm drinking the koolaid because I think he's been doing just fine.

By no means do I want to imply that ALL of pioli's personnel moves are mistakes.

I think he is doing a great job in certain aspects of building this team, and admit that this team (when healthy) has the most talent at certain positions since back when Vermile was here.

My posts was to state the idea that, with his acknowledgement of lack of depth, and him taking responsibility, I think this off-season we will see more action than we ever have since pioli has been here. I think he will be more pressed to find players in both the draft and free agency who will be able to make an impact immediately.

It actually excites me, because with our core group of talent on both sides of the ball, I think adding a few (not a lot) impact FA's can really propel us into becoming a playoff contender.


Tyson Jackson has been very good in 2011.

I am usually a defender of Jackson, I was merely stating that for the #3 overall pick we should be getting more out of him.

I like him, and want him to remain a Chief, Do I think we could use an upgrade at his position? Yeah but I think he could be an important part on this team situationally.

dbolan
12-15-2011, 08:57 AM
Pioli takes the blame yet he fired Haley. He is sounding more and more like a career Politician to me.

okikcfan
12-15-2011, 09:16 AM
The whole thing with getting a new HC is the Shock n ahh on who they keep and who they cut. I went threw the roof on the Gonzo and Allen deals.

KCraised
12-15-2011, 09:54 AM
I don't see firing the other guy as taking responsibility.

If you take But I think the fact that Pioli is expressing concern about his position with the team is ridiculous.

As with any personal relationship, gone bad, with little inside information, I have to give 50% of the blame for his and Todd Haley's "falling out" to Pioli.

And, as stated above, Hunt is at the root of it all. (Not that I think this team was is bad shape)

Not that spending on FAs is some sort of cure-all, but it is one of the biggest tools in the GMs arsenal.

But again, I was not upset with 5-8. It seemed completely appropriate, considering the situation.
Lack of free agency aquisitions is one of Pioli's biggest shortcomings. He seems so hell bent on doing it the hard way and proving he can make chicken salad out of chickens***. Purchase some superstar quality free agents and mix them with your developing players and maybe with some mentoring and being on the field with proven talent, everyone feeds off of that and they all play at a higher level. This is not a new idea.
And as much as Haley has douchebag tendencies, i would say working for secretive Pioli is probably not much of a ray of sunshine, himself...

OPLookn
12-15-2011, 12:11 PM
By no means do I want to imply that ALL of pioli's personnel moves are mistakes.

I think he is doing a great job in certain aspects of building this team, and admit that this team (when healthy) has the most talent at certain positions since back when Vermile was here.

My posts was to state the idea that, with his acknowledgement of lack of depth, and him taking responsibility, I think this off-season we will see more action than we ever have since pioli has been here. I think he will be more pressed to find players in both the draft and free agency who will be able to make an impact immediately.

It actually excites me, because with our core group of talent on both sides of the ball, I think adding a few (not a lot) impact FA's can really propel us into becoming a playoff contender.


And now I understand what you were saying. I have to agree, I think his acknowledgment signals some free agency acquisitions. But you have to wonder if this wasn't his game plan all along, firing Haley probably wasn't part of his plan though.

In 2009 Pioli came here knowing the stable was depleted. He saw what came after the 2010 season but knew that we would need at least one more year to serious playoff contenders. So he stock piles money to bring in good free agents in 2012 and be able to throw the amount of money that'll be necessary at them. With another good draft and the players he's already picked continuing to develop I think he's got a game plan. At least that's my hope because I'd hate to see another GM brought in, that blows up the HC who then wants a new QB and a new system, etc.



I am usually a defender of Jackson, I was merely stating that for the #3 overall pick we should be getting more out of him.

I like him, and want him to remain a Chief, Do I think we could use an upgrade at his position? Yeah but I think he could be an important part on this team situationally.

We will never, ever, get the production out of Jackson to justify the #3 pick...ever. If Jackson is doing his job he shouldn't really be seen and that never justify's a #3 pick since everyone in the top 10 should be very visible in the organization.

nicfre2011
12-15-2011, 04:32 PM
And now I understand what you were saying. I have to agree, I think his acknowledgment signals some free agency acquisitions. But you have to wonder if this wasn't his game plan all along, firing Haley probably wasn't part of his plan though.

In 2009 Pioli came here knowing the stable was depleted. He saw what came after the 2010 season but knew that we would need at least one more year to serious playoff contenders. So he stock piles money to bring in good free agents in 2012 and be able to throw the amount of money that'll be necessary at them. With another good draft and the players he's already picked continuing to develop I think he's got a game plan. At least that's my hope because I'd hate to see another GM brought in, that blows up the HC who then wants a new QB and a new system, etc.



We will never, ever, get the production out of Jackson to justify the #3 pick...ever. If Jackson is doing his job he shouldn't really be seen and that never justify's a #3 pick since everyone in the top 10 should be very visible in the organization.

IMO, it is essentially like drafting a center #3 overall. And at #3 overall, you would expect to have a damn good center too. LOL

OPLookn
12-15-2011, 04:50 PM
IMO, it is essentially like drafting a center #3 overall. And at #3 overall, you would expect to have a damn good center too. LOL

I'd agree, but when that person isn't visible there's not much you can do. Peoples problem with Jackson is that they don't see him getting sacks or terrorizing the opposing QB so they think he's not doing a good job. But as we both know there's a reason that Houston has 4 sacks in the past two games. Granted Houston is an amazing player and I won't take some of that away from him. But if Tyson isn't doing the job Houston is easily double teamed.

I'd equate being picked at #3 overall and being expected to do an amazing job with someone being paid 63 million dollars over 6 years. You expect that person to do an amazing job.

nicfre2011
12-15-2011, 05:25 PM
I'd agree, but when that person isn't visible there's not much you can do. Peoples problem with Jackson is that they don't see him getting sacks or terrorizing the opposing QB so they think he's not doing a good job. But as we both know there's a reason that Houston has 4 sacks in the past two games. Granted Houston is an amazing player and I won't take some of that away from him. But if Tyson isn't doing the job Houston is easily double teamed.

I'd equate being picked at #3 overall and being expected to do an amazing job with someone being paid 63 million dollars over 6 years. You expect that person to do an amazing job.

I agree. But I guess what I am talking about is the financial committment for a position that while important, there are other more critical positions for a complete transition from a 4-3 to 3-4. 3-4 DEs are important, but like your analogy, a good center is going to help open up lanes for that star runningback. Bottom line, and this is strictly IMO, Jackson's position was not a value for the financial committment. Now, it is what it is, and he has played better than before.

TopekaRoy
12-15-2011, 06:54 PM
Bottom line, and this is strictly IMO, Jackson's position was not a value for the financial committment. Now, it is what it is, and he has played better than before.
This is what I don't understand. I keep hearing people say (and I'm not singling you out. I'm talking about people in general) that Jackson is ok, but he was picked way too high. I don't see how that is in any way his fault. He was picked too high, but he is doing a good job (even if it isn't spectacular). Like you said, "It is what it is." I hate that phrase. Everything is what it is, but in this case it fits. We can't change where he was picked, but we got a starting DE out of it who is improving and needs to continue to get better. There are so many other positions of greater need on this team to be worrying about Tyson Jackson.