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View Full Version : My Take on the Chiefs Win Today (If anyone cares)



Ryfo18
12-18-2011, 08:23 PM
1.) I've been a big fan of Romeo, and this defense all year. Put behind a competent QB that can actually keep the offense moving, the Chiefs defense is probably the most underrated in the league (right there with the Broncos that continue to win "because of Tebow").

2.) If the Broncos do win the AFC West, this plays well into the hands of the Chiefs. Why?

The Raiders have no draft picks and are stuck with Carson Palmer, which was a backfire waiting to happen from the beginning. Raiders fans tried to be oblivious of Carson's past and all of the sudden think he's a quarterback capable of leading a team to the playoffs. He is not. And they have about nothing for draft picks in the next year. The Raiders willl continue to be a sub .500 team for the next years coming.

On the other hand, the Tebow situation is interesting. Broncos fans, they love him. John Elway, on the other hand, is not a big fan. Does this pin the fans vs. management though, into the Broncos not drafting a competent quarterback? Who knows...I don't know if Elway has the stones to go against the fan base ... what I do know though is that Tebow could set that organization back a lot. He's essentially the Vince Young of today. Benefits from a great defense, doesn't do much for himself offensively, and is certainly not the solution for the Broncos.

3.) The Chiefs are an elite quarterback away from contending. And this point is key, because we, as a fanbase deserve better. We haven't gotten it to this point, and it's been 42 years since this team has been able to bring us a Super Bowl. But let's realize what is in front of us ...

A defense that can shut down and hold the best offense in the league to 14 points.

A defense that can keep the Steelers within range of being beat, and provided a competent quarterback, could have won that game.

A defense that shut the Patriots down for the first half, until the Patriots got the better of them in the 2nd half. Had the Chiefs had an offense that could have put up 30+ points (against a bad defense), that could have been another win.


What am I getting at? We saw what Orton could do for us today...What could an elite quarterback do on this team, given that we have perhaps the most underrated defense in the league?

Resign Carr, for one thing...The Chiefs corners have shut down the best wide receivers all year. Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown, Wes Welker, Jordy Nelson, Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress...what have they done? Bring back Berry next year, and wow, we have something to really brag about.

Cassel, or Orton, can lead this team deep into the playoffs. Can they win a Super Bowl? Maybe, but I doubt it. But now is the time with an early draft pick, and a deep QB draft, to draft the QB of the future. If we keep going as we are, we won't be picking in the top 15 in the near future.

I'm rambling at this point, but will stick to what I've said all year. Put a legit offense with this defense against any team, and you have a Super Bowl contender...The ONLY thing missing from the offense? An elite quarterback.

azchiefsfan
12-18-2011, 08:24 PM
If the Chargers lose tonight and we win our last two games, we win the AFC West. So I wouldn't put the Chiefs memorabilia in the closet yet.

matthewschiefs
12-18-2011, 08:27 PM
I agree with most of what you say. I do think that we need to see Orton more then 1 game before we start to talk about how far he can take us. Today he was pretty good. He was not the thing that was stopping us from putting points on the board. I will have to see more from him before I decided if I think he can take us to a super bowl or not

Ryfo18
12-18-2011, 08:27 PM
If the Chargers lose tonight and we win our last two games, we win the AFC West. So I wouldn't put the Chiefs memorabilia in the closet yet.

Still need Denver to lose their next two though (one would be against the Chiefs). They're sitting at 8-6. ON win makes them essentially the division champs.

70 chiefsfan70
12-18-2011, 08:58 PM
1.) I've been a big fan of Romeo, and this defense all year. Put behind a competent QB that can actually keep the offense moving, the Chiefs defense is probably the most underrated in the league (right there with the Broncos that continue to win "because of Tebow").

2.) If the Broncos do win the AFC West, this plays well into the hands of the Chiefs. Why?

The Raiders have no draft picks and are stuck with Carson Palmer, which was a backfire waiting to happen from the beginning. Raiders fans tried to be oblivious of Carson's past and all of the sudden think he's a quarterback capable of leading a team to the playoffs. He is not. And they have about nothing for draft picks in the next year. The Raiders willl continue to be a sub .500 team for the next years coming.

On the other hand, the Tebow situation is interesting. Broncos fans, they love him. John Elway, on the other hand, is not a big fan. Does this pin the fans vs. management though, into the Broncos not drafting a competent quarterback? Who knows...I don't know if Elway has the stones to go against the fan base ... what I do know though is that Tebow could set that organization back a lot. He's essentially the Vince Young of today. Benefits from a great defense, doesn't do much for himself offensively, and is certainly not the solution for the Broncos.

3.) The Chiefs are an elite quarterback away from contending. And this point is key, because we, as a fanbase deserve better. We haven't gotten it to this point, and it's been 42 years since this team has been able to bring us a Super Bowl. But let's realize what is in front of us ...

A defense that can shut down and hold the best offense in the league to 14 points.

A defense that can keep the Steelers within range of being beat, and provided a competent quarterback, could have won that game.

A defense that shut the Patriots down for the first half, until the Patriots got the better of them in the 2nd half. Had the Chiefs had an offense that could have put up 30+ points (against a bad defense), that could have been another win.


What am I getting at? We saw what Orton could do for us today...What could an elite quarterback do on this team, given that we have perhaps the most underrated defense in the league?

Resign Carr, for one thing...The Chiefs corners have shut down the best wide receivers all year. Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown, Wes Welker, Jordy Nelson, Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress...what have they done? Bring back Berry next year, and wow, we have something to really brag about.

Cassel, or Orton, can lead this team deep into the playoffs. Can they win a Super Bowl? Maybe, but I doubt it. But now is the time with an early draft pick, and a deep QB draft, to draft the QB of the future. If we keep going as we are, we won't be picking in the top 15 in the near future.

I'm rambling at this point, but will stick to what I've said all year. Put a legit offense with this defense against any team, and you have a Super Bowl contender...The ONLY thing missing from the offense? An elite quarterback.

I think you are correct, this team needs a new leader, Cassel is not getting it done.

TopekaRoy
12-18-2011, 09:09 PM
Good post, Ryfo, but I have to disagree with you on one thing.


3.) The Chiefs are an elite quarterback away from contending.

I disagree with you here and for precisely the same reasons that you say we need an elite QB! If we learned anything from todays game it is that with this defense and just a proficient QB we can beat any team in the NFL. I know it's only one game and "on any given Sunday ..." but we beat the best team in the NFL without our superstar running back, without Eric Berry and without a really good offensive line. Get those guys back and upgrade the O-line at 1 or 2 spots and we are a Super Bowl contender with Orton or even Cassel. Although i think Orton handles defensive pressure better than Cassel does, we saw last year that even Cassel can be decent with a good run game to help him out.

An elite QB would be great, but if we get our injured starters back and upgrade a few positions in "the trenches" we can definitely win without one.

Ryfo18
12-18-2011, 09:12 PM
Good post, Ryfo, but I have to disagree with you on one thing.


I disagree with you here and for precisely the same reasons that you say we need an elite QB! If we learned anything from todays game it is that with this defense and just a proficient QB we can beat any team in the NFL. I know it's only one game and "on any given Sunday ..." but we beat the best team in the NFL without our superstar running back, without Eric Berry and without a really good offensive line. Get those guys back and upgrade the O-line at 1 or 2 spots and we are a Super Bowl contender with Orton or even Cassel. Although i think Orton handles defensive pressure better than Cassel does, we saw last year that even Cassel can be decent with a good run game to help him out.

An elite QB would be great, but if we get our injured starters and upgrade a few positions in "the trenches" we can definitely win without one.

I absolutely hear what you are saying...But if I were asked, what is the one position you want a stud at? I would say quarterback...Get us a Brady, Rodgers, Brees, etc...Man this team would be fun.

matthewschiefs
12-18-2011, 09:17 PM
I absolutely hear what you are saying...But if I were asked, what is the one position you want a stud at? I would say quarterback...Get us a Brady, Rodgers, Brees, etc...Man this team would be fun.

What if Orton could become that stud? It's possible. I know that he hasn't been GREAT where hes been but if Orton could become anther Trent Green I think that would be fun as well. And this time we would have a defense to go along with it. I would just say it's not time to shut the door on Orton going forward.

N TX Dave
12-18-2011, 09:26 PM
What if Orton could become that stud? It's possible. I know that he hasn't been GREAT where hes been but if Orton could become anther Trent Green I think that would be fun as well. And this time we would have a defense to go along with it. I would just say it's not time to shut the door on Orton going forward.

Amen to that, but you don't want to hand him the keys to the sprots car based on one game let him do it two more games and then give him the keys.

matthewschiefs
12-18-2011, 09:28 PM
Amen to that, but you don't want to hand him the keys to the sprots car based on one game let him do it two more games and then give him the keys.

I agree. 1 game is not enough to give him the keys but it's also not enough to close the door on him is all I am saying.

chief31
12-18-2011, 09:30 PM
I absolutely hear what you are saying...But if I were asked, what is the one position you want a stud at? I would say quarterback...Get us a Brady, Rodgers, Brees, etc...Man this team would be fun.

My problem with that whole mentality is that all of those guys can be made to look like they are not elite QBs, if the rest of the offense is failing.

Not that I disagree with the philosphy. Just the notion that an elite QB has to be a guy who can do everything, regardless of the surrounding talent.

How did Rodgers look today, without all the receivers open everywhere, and with lesser pass-blocking?

Give him the poor play-calling that The Chiefs have had for the past several seasons, along with that, and keep it that way for two years, and then listen to all his former fans start calling for a new QB.

I look at a guy like Todd Collins, who, in limited play looked great with The Chiefs, and Vermiel's offense. And then, with Al Saunders' offense, in Washington, continued to show a whole lot of promise.

But, when Saunders left and the offense fell apart, he looked bad. And when he played for The Bears, who have yet to figure out how to build a QB-friendly offense, he looked horrible.

I think we have two QBs on our roster who are capable of being elite QBs, if we get a solid consistency from the rest of the offense, especially the play-calling and offensive design.

And, if we build a dominant offense around either of those guys, then the sky's the limit.

N TX Dave
12-18-2011, 09:31 PM
I agree. 1 game is not enough to give him the keys but it's also not enough to close the door on him is all I am saying.

That is exactly why I said amen.

GoHardorGoHome
12-18-2011, 09:32 PM
Good post, Ryfo, but I have to disagree with you on one thing.


I disagree with you here and for precisely the same reasons that you say we need an elite QB! If we learned anything from todays game it is that with this defense and just a proficient QB we can beat any team in the NFL. I know it's only one game and "on any given Sunday ..." but we beat the best team in the NFL without our superstar running back, without Eric Berry and without a really good offensive line. Get those guys back and upgrade the O-line at 1 or 2 spots and we are a Super Bowl contender with Orton or even Cassel. Although i think Orton handles defensive pressure better than Cassel does, we saw last year that even Cassel can be decent with a good run game to help him out.

An elite QB would be great, but if we get our injured starters back and upgrade a few positions in "the trenches" we can definitely win without one.

I think Orton proved the point by being more successful, more 1st downs, no turnovers, more pass yards than we've had all year in a game. And yes, he's only been here 2 weeks. Cassel is done. We still need to draft another QB and build the line on both sidrs. It will be interesting to see where we finish.

ctchiefsfan
12-18-2011, 11:26 PM
If the Chargers lose tonight and we win our last two games, we win the AFC West. So I wouldn't put the Chiefs memorabilia in the closet yet.

We'd also need Denver to lose to Buffalo next week.

And we'd need San Diego to not win out.

There is a very real possibility that the entire division could wind up 8-8.

And I have had far too much beer to try to figure out that kind of messy tie-breaker scenario.

pojote
12-19-2011, 07:32 AM
tie-breaker scenario.

Easy, if everyone gets 8-8, Chiefs are Div. Champions, because better div. record.

ctchiefsfan
12-19-2011, 07:37 AM
Amazing we are still in the hunt after this rough a season.:chiefs:

dbolan
12-19-2011, 07:55 AM
Well..From that game...It appears to me that the O-LINE is not the weakest link in our offense.

Orton, should be the answer at QB.

OPLookn
12-19-2011, 12:25 PM
We'd also need Denver to lose to Buffalo next week.

And we'd need San Diego to not win out.

There is a very real possibility that the entire division could wind up 8-8.

And I have had far too much beer to try to figure out that kind of messy tie-breaker scenario.

Unfortunately I see San Diego winning out. They looked like world beaters last night. Granted Baltimore is a different team on the road. Regardless they put a beat down on them and put them into a losing record when on the road. Now they've got the Lions and Raiders at home.

If the Lions don't beat San Diego I could see Denver winning this weekend to get them to 9-7 at the end of the season. They split head to head and if we beat them they have the same divisional record. After that I think it goes to how they did against the same teams they played. Denver wins in that match up if they both win this week. While I don't want to see either one of them win the division I think my hatred of Rivers burns more brightly than against Denver. Can't believe I'm saying that but I watched Rivers post game interview and GAH! I'm going to stab him with a spork!

matthewschiefs
12-19-2011, 01:28 PM
Unfortunately I see San Diego winning out. They looked like world beaters last night. Granted Baltimore is a different team on the road. Regardless they put a beat down on them and put them into a losing record when on the road. Now they've got the Lions and Raiders at home.

If the Lions don't beat San Diego I could see Denver winning this weekend to get them to 9-7 at the end of the season. They split head to head and if we beat them they have the same divisional record. After that I think it goes to how they did against the same teams they played. Denver wins in that match up if they both win this week. While I don't want to see either one of them win the division I think my hatred of Rivers burns more brightly than against Denver. Can't believe I'm saying that but I watched Rivers post game interview and GAH! I'm going to stab him with a spork!

Yeah I think the Chargers are going to win out to. I hope I'm wrong and someone does what the Bengals did for us last season and I hope it's this week I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO CHEER FOR THE FAIDERS.

texaschief
12-19-2011, 05:02 PM
1.) I've been a big fan of Romeo, and this defense all year. Put behind a competent QB that can actually keep the offense moving, the Chiefs defense is probably the most underrated in the league (right there with the Broncos that continue to win "because of Tebow").

2.) If the Broncos do win the AFC West, this plays well into the hands of the Chiefs. Why?

The Raiders have no draft picks and are stuck with Carson Palmer, which was a backfire waiting to happen from the beginning. Raiders fans tried to be oblivious of Carson's past and all of the sudden think he's a quarterback capable of leading a team to the playoffs. He is not. And they have about nothing for draft picks in the next year. The Raiders willl continue to be a sub .500 team for the next years coming.

On the other hand, the Tebow situation is interesting. Broncos fans, they love him. John Elway, on the other hand, is not a big fan. Does this pin the fans vs. management though, into the Broncos not drafting a competent quarterback? Who knows...I don't know if Elway has the stones to go against the fan base ... what I do know though is that Tebow could set that organization back a lot. He's essentially the Vince Young of today. Benefits from a great defense, doesn't do much for himself offensively, and is certainly not the solution for the Broncos.

3.) The Chiefs are an elite quarterback away from contending. And this point is key, because we, as a fanbase deserve better. We haven't gotten it to this point, and it's been 42 years since this team has been able to bring us a Super Bowl. But let's realize what is in front of us ...

A defense that can shut down and hold the best offense in the league to 14 points.

A defense that can keep the Steelers within range of being beat, and provided a competent quarterback, could have won that game.

A defense that shut the Patriots down for the first half, until the Patriots got the better of them in the 2nd half. Had the Chiefs had an offense that could have put up 30+ points (against a bad defense), that could have been another win.


What am I getting at? We saw what Orton could do for us today...What could an elite quarterback do on this team, given that we have perhaps the most underrated defense in the league?

Resign Carr, for one thing...The Chiefs corners have shut down the best wide receivers all year. Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown, Wes Welker, Jordy Nelson, Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress...what have they done? Bring back Berry next year, and wow, we have something to really brag about.

Cassel, or Orton, can lead this team deep into the playoffs. Can they win a Super Bowl? Maybe, but I doubt it. But now is the time with an early draft pick, and a deep QB draft, to draft the QB of the future. If we keep going as we are, we won't be picking in the top 15 in the near future.

I'm rambling at this point, but will stick to what I've said all year. Put a legit offense with this defense against any team, and you have a Super Bowl contender...The ONLY thing missing from the offense? An elite quarterback.

I've kinda been thinking about the "just an elite QB away" thing as well. While I don't necessarily think the Chiefs are in dire NEED of a Tom Brady or some kind of truly elite QB, but the Chiefs may be in position to upgrade their QB position if Pioli has the stones to pull off a trade for Peyton Manning assuming the Colts take Andrew Luck #1 overall.

I've been thinking about this Manning to the Chiefs scenario for a couple weeks now and think it COULD be a good move for this franchise. Pioli and Crennel have seen up close and personal what Peyton Manning can do and how his offense works. The Chiefs will presumably be looking for a new OC and could kill two birds with one stone by bringing in Peyton Manning because he is basically the OC for the Colts on the field.

Manning still has ton left in the tank and could be worth giving up a first or second round pick if the Chiefs believe their window is opening... which, I believe it is. You don't get to posses a young, talented roster like the one the Chiefs boast for very long. Give Peyton a running game like the one the Chiefs had in 2010 and WRs like Bowe, Baldwin, and Breaston as well as a viable TE option in Moeaki and this Chiefs offense could go from inept to elite with one personnel move.

This Chiefs defense is legit and is playing without elite LBs or even a viable NT option... plus, they're young, talented, and improving. The skill level on this team is on the way up and opportunities to land an elite QB like Peyton Manning don't come along very often.

My offer to Indy would be a 2012 2nd, 5th and 2013 3rd. My next offer would be a 2011 first. If negotiations went any higher than that, I probably wouldn't do it. But if we could get Peyton for our first round pick this year, I'd pull the trigger.

Through free agency, I'd do everything I could to identify the future of my Oline. I know that Albert, Asamoah, and Hudson are guys I can build on. Now, how can we upgrade?

Carl Nicks, a 27y/o guard from New Orleans is slated to be a free agent, but he'll probably get resigned.

Ben Grubbs, OG in Baltimore is 28.

Nick Hardwick, C in San Diego will be 30.

These are the names I'd key on to upgrade the OLine. If you're able to get Manning for the first package I mentioned, I'd spend the first round pick upgrading at OT. Not sure you'll be able to upgrade over Albert, who has 4 years of NFL experience at the position with a 10-15 pick, but you could absolutely upgrade at the RT position.

If you HAVE to give up your first round pick for Manning, spend your second round pick on a RT. There's no doubt you could find a bonafide RT in the second round. Your Oline could be Albert, Hudson, Hardwick, Asomoah, draft pick.

But if you make a move like this, you absolutely need to invest some picks and money into your Oline to give Charles running lanes and Manning time to pick the defense apart.

One other name in free agency that could be interesting if we do in fact trade for Manning... WR Reggie Wayne... for obvious reasons but he could also teach the young receivers the offense and basically be another coach on the field.

If I were Pioli and knowing what kind of talent we have on this team and being that he doesn't have a clear cut answer at the QB position and still needs to hire a new OC, I'd take a LOOOONNG look at this move. Like I said, this isn't some team in a rebuild mode... the Chiefs are primed to start winning in 2012 and this team could be an ideal fit for Manning to finish his career.

ctchiefsfan
12-20-2011, 03:18 AM
Not sure how I feel about all this Manning talk. But you're certainly suggesting we offer an awful lot for a guy that we're not even certain will be able to play next year.

You're talking a VERY BIG GAMBLE.

Chiefster
12-20-2011, 02:18 PM
Manning isn't going anywhere, and to suggest anything different would be to live a pipe dream. IMHO

texaschief
12-20-2011, 06:23 PM
Manning isn't going anywhere, and to suggest anything different would be to live a pipe dream. IMHO

I think you're wrong. You saw what the Manning family is capable of when the Chargers took Eli #1 overall. If Manning isn't the future in Indy, the Colts would be foolish to sit on an asset like Manning without converting him into draft picks or other young NFL talent.

Chiefster
12-20-2011, 06:28 PM
I think you're wrong. You saw what the Manning family is capable of when the Chargers took Eli #1 overall. If Manning isn't the future in Indy, the Colts would be foolish to sit on an asset like Manning without converting him into draft picks or other young NFL talent.

I don't know; he comes with a pretty steep price tag. I don't know if anyone else around the league will want to pay for him.

N TX Dave
12-20-2011, 11:16 PM
I think you're wrong. You saw what the Manning family is capable of when the Chargers took Eli #1 overall. If Manning isn't the future in Indy, the Colts would be foolish to sit on an asset like Manning without converting him into draft picks or other young NFL talent.

But there is a difference between a rookie coming into the league and a 35 to be 36 at start of season coming off a year layoff and what could be the end of his career injury even if he is cleared to play one wrong hit and his playing days are over. I know one hit and every player's career could be over but someone 36 that has had 3 neck surgeries in 6 months is a lot closer than most. I DO NOT want the Chiefs to give up 2 1st and a 2nd round pick for him the Colts could be using the picks after Manning is retired or worse disabled.

texaschief
12-21-2011, 04:24 AM
I don't know; he comes with a pretty steep price tag. I don't know if anyone else around the league will want to pay for him.

His contract won't allow for the Colts to be in a position to ask for a ton in return. He will bring back a decent bounty, but it won't be anything over the top that will set this Chiefs franchise back over the long-run.


But there is a difference between a rookie coming into the league and a 35 to be 36 at start of season coming off a year layoff and what could be the end of his career injury even if he is cleared to play one wrong hit and his playing days are over. I know one hit and every player's career could be over but someone 36 that has had 3 neck surgeries in 6 months is a lot closer than most. I DO NOT want the Chiefs to give up 2 1st and a 2nd round pick for him the Colts could be using the picks after Manning is retired or worse disabled.

There's no way the Colts could ask for 2 first round picks and a 2nd... for the exact reasons you just mentioned and the fact that he just signed a pretty large contract that the Chiefs would have to take over. If the Colts DO in fact, trade Manning, the Chiefs are one of only a hand full of teams who have the cap space and the need for a QB... in fact, off the top of my head, I can't think of a better fit for a player like Manning than the Chiefs. Again, we have the cap space, the resources, and an uncertain OC situation along with questions at the QB position... put that along with a team who's ready to win in 2012 and a front office who knows all too well what Peyton Manning is capable of and you can see how Manning is a possible fit in Arrowhead.

It's not like this franchise hasn't been the home of the last years of an elite QB before...

Jrudi
12-21-2011, 01:19 PM
1.) I've been a big fan of Romeo, and this defense all year. Put behind a competent QB that can actually keep the offense moving, the Chiefs defense is probably the most underrated in the league (right there with the Broncos that continue to win "because of Tebow").

2.) If the Broncos do win the AFC West, this plays well into the hands of the Chiefs. Why?

The Raiders have no draft picks and are stuck with Carson Palmer, which was a backfire waiting to happen from the beginning. Raiders fans tried to be oblivious of Carson's past and all of the sudden think he's a quarterback capable of leading a team to the playoffs. He is not. And they have about nothing for draft picks in the next year. The Raiders willl continue to be a sub .500 team for the next years coming.

On the other hand, the Tebow situation is interesting. Broncos fans, they love him. John Elway, on the other hand, is not a big fan. Does this pin the fans vs. management though, into the Broncos not drafting a competent quarterback? Who knows...I don't know if Elway has the stones to go against the fan base ... what I do know though is that Tebow could set that organization back a lot. He's essentially the Vince Young of today. Benefits from a great defense, doesn't do much for himself offensively, and is certainly not the solution for the Broncos.

3.) The Chiefs are an elite quarterback away from contending. And this point is key, because we, as a fanbase deserve better. We haven't gotten it to this point, and it's been 42 years since this team has been able to bring us a Super Bowl. But let's realize what is in front of us ...

A defense that can shut down and hold the best offense in the league to 14 points.

A defense that can keep the Steelers within range of being beat, and provided a competent quarterback, could have won that game.

A defense that shut the Patriots down for the first half, until the Patriots got the better of them in the 2nd half. Had the Chiefs had an offense that could have put up 30+ points (against a bad defense), that could have been another win.


What am I getting at? We saw what Orton could do for us today...What could an elite quarterback do on this team, given that we have perhaps the most underrated defense in the league?

Resign Carr, for one thing...The Chiefs corners have shut down the best wide receivers all year. Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown, Wes Welker, Jordy Nelson, Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress...what have they done? Bring back Berry next year, and wow, we have something to really brag about.

Cassel, or Orton, can lead this team deep into the playoffs. Can they win a Super Bowl? Maybe, but I doubt it. But now is the time with an early draft pick, and a deep QB draft, to draft the QB of the future. If we keep going as we are, we won't be picking in the top 15 in the near future.

I'm rambling at this point, but will stick to what I've said all year. Put a legit offense with this defense against any team, and you have a Super Bowl contender...The ONLY thing missing from the offense? An elite quarterback.


I haven't read the rest of this thread yet, but after I read the opening post, I once again would like to say "Great Mind's think alike" haha

I've mentioned before that it seems we are usually on the same page when it comes to our thoughts about needs on this team.

I 100% Agree with this post! I hear people saying "Man we're set with Cassel, Orton, & Stanzi" 1.) Cassel proven that he is not an elite QB (Hell the guy didn't even start in College! I've been a defender of him for a long time, but since his injury I defend him no more) 2.) Although Orton looked good against GB, he showed he is better than Cassel, but I still don't believe he is considered an Elite QB, and don't think he is the answer long term for this team. & 3.) People ranting and raving that Stanzi is our QBOTF...C'Mon Man! I think if they thought there was any hope of that happening, we would have seen him on the field when Palko was sucking it up.

I'm not saying we need to get rid of Stanzi. My thoughts are that we need to #1 look to re-structure Cassel's deal, and Tag Orton with a 2nd or 3rd Round Tender or #2 Re-sign Orton to a 2 year deal, and trade Cassel. I think keep Stanzi on no matter what as our 3rd stringer, but we need to gain compensation from either Orton or Cassel, and look to draft a QB in round 1.

Anyone thought of the idea that we package our 1st, a late rounder, and Cassel to move up? Not saying we have the firepower to get Luck, but maybe Barkley or Griffin. (Ya never know...)

Jrudi
12-21-2011, 01:41 PM
Good post, Ryfo, but I have to disagree with you on one thing.


I disagree with you here and for precisely the same reasons that you say we need an elite QB! If we learned anything from todays game it is that with this defense and just a proficient QB we can beat any team in the NFL. I know it's only one game and "on any given Sunday ..." but we beat the best team in the NFL without our superstar running back, without Eric Berry and without a really good offensive line. Get those guys back and upgrade the O-line at 1 or 2 spots and we are a Super Bowl contender with Orton or even Cassel. Although i think Orton handles defensive pressure better than Cassel does, we saw last year that even Cassel can be decent with a good run game to help him out.

An elite QB would be great, but if we get our injured starters back and upgrade a few positions in "the trenches" we can definitely win without one.

I would actually have to disagree with you on this.

We need a team that can pick up the other side of the ball. Too many times this year the Defense has bailed the offense out, so what happens when the defense has a bad day? we get blown out by the Bills, Lions, and Dolphins.

Just saying, we need an offense that has the ability to put points on the board as well, and even Sunday we only scored 19. We need an offense that has the ability to win a shootout in case the D is having a down game.

Our D has played great at times this year, and I feel is under-rated, but just like our Defense has helped keep us in games, we need an Offense that can help out our defense as well, and an Elite QB would definitely help that cause.

Also, Since 2004 here are the QB's that won the Super Bowl: Rogers, Brees, Big Ben, Eli, Peyton, & Brady (All Elite QB's)
And even the loosers had the likes of Warner, McNabb, Brady, Peyton, Big Ben, Hasselbeck (who was considered Elite at the Time).

The one exception: Rex Grossman (who could probably be arguably the worst QB to ever reach a SB.) So 1 out of 14 teams since 2004 to reach the SB had a "mediocre" QB....Odds don't look very good. I'll roll the dice with a potential elite...

Jrudi
12-21-2011, 01:48 PM
My problem with that whole mentality is that all of those guys can be made to look like they are not elite QBs, if the rest of the offense is failing.

Not that I disagree with the philosphy. Just the notion that an elite QB has to be a guy who can do everything, regardless of the surrounding talent.

How did Rodgers look today, without all the receivers open everywhere, and with lesser pass-blocking?

Give him the poor play-calling that The Chiefs have had for the past several seasons, along with that, and keep it that way for two years, and then listen to all his former fans start calling for a new QB.

I look at a guy like Todd Collins, who, in limited play looked great with The Chiefs, and Vermiel's offense. And then, with Al Saunders' offense, in Washington, continued to show a whole lot of promise.

But, when Saunders left and the offense fell apart, he looked bad. And when he played for The Bears, who have yet to figure out how to build a QB-friendly offense, he looked horrible.

I think we have two QBs on our roster who are capable of being elite QBs, if we get a solid consistency from the rest of the offense, especially the play-calling and offensive design.

And, if we build a dominant offense around either of those guys, then the sky's the limit.


Sorry I know I just posted 3 times in a row, but I kept going to the next post and finding myself wanting to respond to it haha!

You've got to be kidding me! Look at the Colts! Proof that and Elite QB can elevate a teams performance!

And Brady has been great this year with a Defense that is close to the bottom of the league in most categories!

I'm not saying that one the 1st rounders this year will be of that caliber, but you have to think it's worth a shot to find out...

ctchiefsfan
12-21-2011, 01:53 PM
Anyone thought of the idea that we package our 1st, a late rounder, and Cassel to move up? Not saying we have the firepower to get Luck, but maybe Barkley or Griffin. (Ya never know...)

It's been my opinion (and still is) that our first need is to strengthen our O-line and our second is more depth on our D.

That said, depending on how Orton plays the next two weeks I would have no problems with the deal you suggest so long as the QB we put with our first rounder was either Cassel or Orton--depending on how Orton plays the next two weeks.

As much as I believe that the offensive line and the D win games, having a young star QB on the team would certainly be a thrill.

TopekaRoy
12-21-2011, 02:43 PM
I absolutely hear what you are saying...But if I were asked, what is the one position you want a stud at? I would say quarterback...Get us a Brady, Rodgers, Brees, etc...Man this team would be fun.


I would actually have to disagree with you on this.

We need a team that can pick up the other side of the ball. Too many times this year the Defense has bailed the offense out, so what happens when the defense has a bad day? we get blown out by the Bills, Lions, and Dolphins.

Just saying, we need an offense that has the ability to put points on the board as well, and even Sunday we only scored 19. We need an offense that has the ability to win a shootout in case the D is having a down game.

Our D has played great at times this year, and I feel is under-rated, but just like our Defense has helped keep us in games, we need an Offense that can help out our defense as well, and an Elite QB would definitely help that cause.

Also, Since 2004 here are the QB's that won the Super Bowl: Rogers, Brees, Big Ben, Eli, Peyton, & Brady (All Elite QB's)
And even the loosers had the likes of Warner, McNabb, Brady, Peyton, Big Ben, Hasselbeck (who was considered Elite at the Time).

The one exception: Rex Grossman (who could probably be arguably the worst QB to ever reach a SB.) So 1 out of 14 teams since 2004 to reach the SB had a "mediocre" QB....Odds don't look very good. I'll roll the dice with a potential elite...
I understand your position Jrudi and I think Ryfo sums up the feelings of most fans of most teams nicely. I'm not opposed to getting a stud QB and I don't think anybody would be disappointed if we got one. I just don't see the QB position as being as much of a need as you do. I don't want to see us giving up draft picks to move up and get one of the top QBs, when the O-line is not equipped to protect him and he may have to develop on the bench for a year or two. Picking a QB may be one of the biggest gambles in the draft. I've seen too many 1st round picks struggle or become busts and too many later round picks eventually develop into good QBs

I think both Orton and Cassel are better than people are giving them credit for (although will probably never be considered "elite" in this type of offense) and I've seen even average QBs shine behind great O-lines when they have "all day" to throw the ball.

People are always pointing out the elite QBs that have made it to the super Bowl in recent years, but when was the last time a team with a defense as good as ours could be next year made it to the Super Bowl? I would have to say that was in 2005 when the Bears made it with ...

wait for it ....

Rex Grossman! :D

Jrudi
12-21-2011, 03:31 PM
I understand your position Jrudi and I think Ryfo sums up the feelings of most fans of most teams nicely. I'm not opposed to getting a stud QB and I don't think anybody would be disappointed if we got one. I just don't see the QB position as being as much of a need as you do. I don't want to see us giving up draft picks to move up and get one of the top QBs, when the O-line is not equipped to protect him and he may have to develop on the bench for a year or two. Picking a QB may be one of the biggest gambles in the draft. I've seen too many 1st round picks struggle or become busts and too many later round picks eventually develop into good QBs

I think both Orton and Cassel are better than people are giving them credit for (although will probably never be considered "elite" in this type of offense) and I've seen even average QBs shine behind great O-lines when they have "all day" to throw the ball.

People are always pointing out the elite QBs that have made it to the super Bowl in recent years, but when was the last time a team with a defense as good as ours could be next year made it to the Super Bowl? I would have to say that was in 2005 when the Bears made it with ...

wait for it ....

Rex Grossman! :D


I see your point about a good defense taking a team to the SB such as the 2005 bears, But as I also posted recent history has shown us that the chance that this combination takes us to a Super Bowl is pretty unlikely (I mentioned of the last 14 teams to make the Super Bowl, only 1, a la Rex Grossman, was not considered Elite at the time they made it.)

So that's basically saying that without an arguably elite QB (Taking into consideration all the SB's since 2004) only 7% of the time a non elite QB was playing in the Super Bowl, and a 0% of those (ONE) mediore QB's won it!) (You have to look at RECENT history due to rule changes, it has morphed the league into a QB friendly league)

As for the O-line. I've mentioned this recently as well. Our O-line is not as bad as it is made out to be. Albert is better than People give him credit for, Asamoah and Hudson are young talents that have proven to be good players, showing that our Main issues going forward lie with and older and undersized Lilja, and a guy in Richardson who just isn't that good.

That being said, I don't find the need to use a 1st round pick on a RT, or a LG if we have an opportunity to grab a potential franchise QB. I have mentioned on other threads that I think this will be our most active off season in FA than we have seen, due to recent comments from Pioli. I suggested the idea that we go after a good young FA prospect to fill our RT or LG spots, and fill the other one throught the draft.

I like the idea of targeting Ben Grubbs (OG with Baltimore) he is still fairly young (27) and is one of the top FA OG's this offseason. If we can do that we could look to add a RT prospect like Andrew Datko from Florida state in Round 2 or a Guy like Branden Mosley from Auburn in round 3. With Mims and Maneri on our roster as well, you would have to think we could find a solid RT with 4 to choose from.

Those moves right there would solidify our line for years to come, and we can then continue to develop players along the way.

Ryfo and I have mentioned this before as well. Go look at the teams who have recently drafted a top LT in the recent years (in the top 5-10) and their records since, vs the teams who have drafted QB's in the top 5-10 in recent years.

Needless to say, those teams like the Seahawks, Redskins, Browns and Dolphins still haven't had success without a QB.

The teams that have drafted OT's in the first round in recent years that are having success, had answers at the QB Position.

TopekaRoy
12-21-2011, 03:57 PM
I see your point about a good defense taking a team to the SB such as the 2005 bears, But as I also posted recent history has shown us that the chance that this combination takes us to a Super Bowl is pretty unlikely (I mentioned of the last 14 teams to make the Super Bowl, only 1, a la Rex Grossman, was not considered Elite at the time they made it.)

So that's basically saying that without an arguably elite QB (Taking into consideration all the SB's since 2004) only 7% of the time a non elite QB was playing in the Super Bowl, and a 0% of those (ONE) mediore QB's won it!) (You have to look at RECENT history due to rule changes, it has morphed the league into a QB friendly league)

As for the O-line. I've mentioned this recently as well. Our O-line is not as bad as it is made out to be. Albert is better than People give him credit for, Asamoah and Hudson are young talents that have proven to be good players, showing that our Main issues going forward lie with and older and undersized Lilja, and a guy in Richardson who just isn't that good.

That being said, I don't find the need to use a 1st round pick on a RT, or a LG if we have an opportunity to grab a potential franchise QB. I have mentioned on other threads that I think this will be our most active off season in FA than we have seen, due to recent comments from Pioli. I suggested the idea that we go after a good young FA prospect to fill our RT or LG spots, and fill the other one throught the draft.

I like the idea of targeting Ben Grubbs (OG with Baltimore) he is still fairly young (27) and is one of the top FA OG's this offseason. If we can do that we could look to add a RT prospect like Andrew Datko from Florida state in Round 2 or a Guy like Branden Mosley from Auburn in round 3. With Mims and Maneri on our roster as well, you would have to think we could find a solid RT with 4 to choose from.

Those moves right there would solidify our line for years to come, and we can then continue to develop players along the way.

Ryfo and I have mentioned this before as well. Go look at the teams who have recently drafted a top LT in the recent years (in the top 5-10) and their records since, vs the teams who have drafted QB's in the top 5-10 in recent years.

Needless to say, those teams like the Seahawks, Redskins, Browns and Dolphins still haven't had success without a QB.

The teams that have drafted OT's in the first round in recent years that are having success, had answers at the QB Position.
I think we agree here a lot more than we disagree. I also think Pioli will be very active in FA next year especially with the extra salary cap money we will be able to carry over from this year. I also agree that our O-line is not that bad, but it definitely is not as good as we need it to be either.

I would like nothing more than to fix the O-line and get a great QB as well. And you make a good point about drafting offensive linemen as well. It's just about as big a crap shoot as getting a franchise QB is. You can definitely get good O-linemen in later rounds. You just never know which ones are going to be good until they have played a little in the NFL. Free agency might be the safer way to go here as long as we can get some players who are young enough that they will be around for a while.

We are certainly in a good position to dramatically improve next year and I don't think we are that far away from being a contender.

I can't wait to see what we do.

Jrudi
12-21-2011, 04:07 PM
I think we agree here a lot more than we disagree. I also think Pioli will be very active in FA next year especially with the extra salary cap money we will be able to carry over from this year. I also agree that our O-line is not that bad, but it definitely is not as good as we need it to be either.

I would like nothing more than to fix the O-line and get a great QB as well. And you make a good point about drafting offensive linemen as well. It's just about as big a crap shoot as getting a franchise QB is. You can definitely get good O-linemen in later rounds. You just never know which ones are going to be good until they have played a little in the NFL. Free agency might be the safer way to go here as long as we can get some players who are young enough that they will be around for a while.

We are certainly in a good position to dramatically improve next year and I don't think we are that far away from being a contender.

I can't wait to see what we do.

Hey I agree!!! woo hoo haha

Nice debate we had going there. And yes I think we both agree that we are excited for the situation we are in right now.

With the QB's we have on our roster right now, and the scenarios that could happen to help us improve our team (weather its re-signing, trading, gaining compensation, or drafting) I think we are in a good situation with the QB position.

This is the first year I can remember in recent years where I looked over our roster and didn't see a GLARING need that needed to find an impact starter right away. (Of course the positions we had mentioned would be first on the list, but if we don't get all of them filled I feel we could still compete)

We can definitely always improve everywhere, but I do feel that with our young talented group, that we are just a couple of additions away from elevating ourselves as one of the AFC's elite (& possibly NFL's)

boiler01
12-21-2011, 04:17 PM
Getting an elite QB is overrated, because you can't just go grab one. A good OC/QB coach and good supporting cast on the other hand can turn an average QB close to elite. Look at the Dolts.

This is not a deep QB draft as xperts claimed it to be. Other than Luck there is no one special. Maybe some Vince Youngs or Joe Flaccos. Is Flacco better than Cassel or Orton? I don't think so.

jap1
12-21-2011, 04:30 PM
Hey I agree!!! woo hoo haha

Nice debate we had going there. And yes I think we both agree that we are excited for the situation we are in right now.

With the QB's we have on our roster right now, and the scenarios that could happen to help us improve our team (weather its re-signing, trading, gaining compensation, or drafting) I think we are in a good situation with the QB position.

This is the first year I can remember in recent years where I looked over our roster and didn't see a GLARING need that needed to find an impact starter right away. (Of course the positions we had mentioned would be first on the list, but if we don't get all of them filled I feel we could still compete)

We can definitely always improve everywhere, but I do feel that with our young talented group, that we are just a couple of additions away from elevating ourselves as one of the AFC's elite (& possibly NFL's)

I think a lot of us here agree with this general idea: "A high quality QB is nice, but only if we upgrade the line also."

I (like some here) think the OL is in worse condition than QB, but I will also concede that the positions that we need the MOST help with on the OL can be easily acquired through FA or the 2nd round.

That having been said, I am not sure if the QBs will be there when we draft. We will likely be around 10-14, depending on if we win any of the rest of our games. If we make it to the playoffs, then we will be drafting much later than that. I am starting to think the only way we get a QB is if a bunch of people end up passing on QBs, which is possible, or we lose the next two games (hopefully not).

Arizona is probably going to go OL to protect the two decent QBs they already have.

Tennessee has Jake Locker for when Hasselbeck finally is done with being injured.

Miami is doing well with Matt Moore, and may look to upgrade their OL to open holes for Bush and keep Moore healthy. Then again new coaches usually equal new QBs.

Seattle will probably finish with an equal or better record than us, and they MAY want a QB.

Indy may draft Luck ... or may not?

Jax MAY go for a QB, or may decide to stick with Gabbert for a year and fill their 20 other needs.

Washington does need a QB, but not desperately (Grossman has flashes of being manageable).

I cant think of anyone else in the bottom half of the draft who would even consider getting a QB. So 3 teams that PROBABLY want a QB and one that MAYBE wants a QB.

ctchiefsfan
12-21-2011, 04:33 PM
Hey I agree!!! woo hoo haha

Nice debate we had going there. And yes I think we both agree that we are excited for the situation we are in right now.

With the QB's we have on our roster right now, and the scenarios that could happen to help us improve our team (weather its re-signing, trading, gaining compensation, or drafting) I think we are in a good situation with the QB position.

This is the first year I can remember in recent years where I looked over our roster and didn't see a GLARING need that needed to find an impact starter right away. (Of course the positions we had mentioned would be first on the list, but if we don't get all of them filled I feel we could still compete)

We can definitely always improve everywhere, but I do feel that with our young talented group, that we are just a couple of additions away from elevating ourselves as one of the AFC's elite (& possibly NFL's)

Have to agree with you. Really kind of unusual and encouraging to be so optimistic at the tail end of what has been a generally unhappy season.

TopekaRoy
12-21-2011, 04:33 PM
Hey I agree!!! woo hoo haha

Woo hoo!
:bounce016:
:dt:


Getting an elite QB is overrated
And Boiler01 is on my side, so there!
http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/444-sticking-out-tongue.jpg

okikcfan
12-21-2011, 04:42 PM
After Gonzo, Allen and Waters I always have that uneasy feeling going into the off season.....

Jrudi
12-21-2011, 04:43 PM
Getting an elite QB is overrated, because you can't just go grab one. A good OC/QB coach and good supporting cast on the other hand can turn an average QB close to elite. Look at the Dolts.

This is not a deep QB draft as xperts claimed it to be. Other than Luck there is no one special. Maybe some Vince Youngs or Joe Flaccos. Is Flacco better than Cassel or Orton? I don't think so.

First off, even though I hate Phillip Rivers, the dude is an elite QB (and hands down the best player on the Chargers team, even in his down year this year) that is not a product of his coaching, I actually think the coaching hampers his abilities.

I would take Rivers over our options any day (and think we would be damn good if we had him). I love to hate Rivers, but would love it even more, if the Chargers hated him because he was a Chief!

Then for the comment on the Experts not know what they are talking about regarding this years depth at QB??? Are you nuts, those guys get paid for a living to scout those guys, they've got much more information than we do, and I would trust the opinion of a paid professional over a dude on a forum that anyone can join.

And actually.... Cassel's total QBR with the Chiefs has been 79.8 Ortons career average is 77.15

Flacco's career average is 85.8

so if you look at the #'s then Flacco could be considered better than both Cassel and Orton.

N TX Dave
12-21-2011, 06:07 PM
I would actually have to disagree with you on this.

We need a team that can pick up the other side of the ball. Too many times this year the Defense has bailed the offense out, so what happens when the defense has a bad day? we get blown out by the Bills, Lions, and Dolphins.

Just saying, we need an offense that has the ability to put points on the board as well, and even Sunday we only scored 19. We need an offense that has the ability to win a shootout in case the D is having a down game.

Our D has played great at times this year, and I feel is under-rated, but just like our Defense has helped keep us in games, we need an Offense that can help out our defense as well, and an Elite QB would definitely help that cause.

Also, Since 2004 here are the QB's that won the Super Bowl: Rogers, Brees, Big Ben, Eli, Peyton, & Brady (All Elite QB's)
And even the loosers had the likes of Warner, McNabb, Brady, Peyton, Big Ben, Hasselbeck (who was considered Elite at the Time).

The one exception: Rex Grossman (who could probably be arguably the worst QB to ever reach a SB.) So 1 out of 14 teams since 2004 to reach the SB had a "mediocre" QB....Odds don't look very good. I'll roll the dice with a potential elite...

I agree with you but I will turn it around how many elite QB's are out there? Ten - twelve and there are 32 teams out there so 20 teams are not going to have an elite QB should they just fold up camp until they can get the elite QB? It is fine to say draft one of the hot college QB and you will have an elite QB. Well look at the first round QB drafts that have been busts.


Jerry Tagge (1972)
Rich Campbell (1981)
Todd Blackledge (1982)
Kelly Stouffer (1987)
Andre Ware (1990)
David Klinger (1992)
Heath Shuler (1994)
Tim Couch (1999)
Akili Smith (1999)
Cade McNown (1999)
Vince Young (2006) is potentially a bust
Art Schlichter (1982)
Jeff George (1990)
Andre Ware (1990)
Dan McGwire (1991)
Todd Marinovich (1991)
Tommy Maddox (1992)
Rick Mirer (1993)
Jim Druckenmiller (1997)
Ryan Leaf (1998)
Tim Couch (1999)
Cade McNown (1999)
Joey Harrington (2002)
J.P. Losman (2004)
Vince Young (2006) is potentially a bust
Matt Leinart (2006) is potentially a bust
JaMarcus Russell (2007) is potentially a bust
David Klinger (1992)
Tim Couch (1999)
David Carr (2002)
Joey Harrington (2002)

TopekaRoy
12-21-2011, 06:39 PM
I agree with you but I will turn it around how many elite QB's are out there? Ten - twelve and there are 32 teams out there so 20 teams are not going to have an elite QB should they just fold up camp until they can get the elite QB? It is fine to say draft one of the hot college QB and you will have an elite QB. Well look at the first round QB drafts that have been busts.

Jerry Tagge (1972)
Rich Campbell (1981)
Todd Blackledge (1982)
Kelly Stouffer (1987)
Andre Ware (1990)
David Klinger (1992)
Heath Shuler (1994)
Tim Couch (1999)
Akili Smith (1999)
Cade McNown (1999)
Vince Young (2006) is potentially a bust
Art Schlichter (1982)
Jeff George (1990)
Andre Ware (1990)
Dan McGwire (1991)
Todd Marinovich (1991)
Tommy Maddox (1992)
Rick Mirer (1993)
Jim Druckenmiller (1997)
Ryan Leaf (1998)
Tim Couch (1999)
Cade McNown (1999)
Joey Harrington (2002)
J.P. Losman (2004)
Vince Young (2006) is potentially a bust
Matt Leinart (2006) is potentially a bust
JaMarcus Russell (2007) is potentially a bust
David Klinger (1992)
Tim Couch (1999)
David Carr (2002)
Joey Harrington (2002)

I agree with you pretty much, but to be fair you did repeat a bunch of names on that list (in bold). Here it is again in chronological order:


Jerry Tagge (1972)
Rich Campbell (1981)
Todd Blackledge (1982)
Art Schlichter (1982)
Kelly Stouffer (1987)
Jeff George (1990)
Andre Ware (1990)
Dan McGwire (1991)
Todd Marinovich (1991)
David Klinger (1992)
Tommy Maddox (1992)
Rick Mirer (1993)
Heath Shuler (1994)
Jim Druckenmiller (1997)
Ryan Leaf (1998)
Tim Couch (1999)
Akili Smith (1999)
Cade McNown (1999)
Joey Harrington (2002)
David Carr (2002)
J.P. Losman (2004)
Matt Leinart (2006) is potentially a bust
Vince Young (2006) is potentially a bust
JaMarcus Russell (2007) is potentially a bust

It's still a pretty long list.

Ryfo18
12-21-2011, 06:59 PM
JaMarcus Russell (2007) is potentially a bust

Potentially?

:raisux:

N TX Dave
12-21-2011, 07:36 PM
Potentially?

:raisux:

Not my list grabbed off the internet so I did not take liberty that was my thought also Potentially I though he was.

texaschief
12-21-2011, 11:04 PM
Jrudi... you just made me throw up a little in my mouth when you said Rivers was an "elite" QB. That statement is so far off base, I feel it is pointless to even try and argue.

I'm just going to leave it with a simple...

... no he's not.

TopekaRoy
12-21-2011, 11:25 PM
Jrudi... you just made me throw up a little in my mouth when you said Rivers was an "elite" QB. That statement is so far off base, I feel it is pointless to even try and argue.

I'm just going to leave it with a simple...

... no he's not.
http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/thriller/25.gif

Jrudi
12-22-2011, 10:12 AM
I agree with you but I will turn it around how many elite QB's are out there? Ten - twelve and there are 32 teams out there so 20 teams are not going to have an elite QB should they just fold up camp until they can get the elite QB? It is fine to say draft one of the hot college QB and you will have an elite QB. Well look at the first round QB drafts that have been busts.
Jerry Tagge (1972)
Rich Campbell (1981)
Todd Blackledge (1982)
Kelly Stouffer (1987)
Andre Ware (1990)
David Klinger (1992)
Heath Shuler (1994)
Tim Couch (1999)
Akili Smith (1999)
Cade McNown (1999)
Vince Young (2006) is potentially a bust
Art Schlichter (1982)
Jeff George (1990)
Andre Ware (1990)
Dan McGwire (1991)
Todd Marinovich (1991)
Tommy Maddox (1992)
Rick Mirer (1993)
Jim Druckenmiller (1997)
Ryan Leaf (1998)
Tim Couch (1999)
Cade McNown (1999)
Joey Harrington (2002)
J.P. Losman (2004)
Vince Young (2006) is potentially a bust
Matt Leinart (2006) is potentially a bust
JaMarcus Russell (2007) is potentially a bust
David Klinger (1992)
Tim Couch (1999)
David Carr (2002)
Joey Harrington (2002)


So you listed 24 QB's within a 39 year perior???

I'm not going to waiste my time going back and seeing a total of how many 1st round QB's had a successful career, but my guess is that Odd's are better that you find a decent QB in round 1 vs the one's who became labeled as busts.

The point is that here is about 3 tiers of QB's: Elite, Above Average, Average. Let's look at those QB's and their teams this year: (Note: I did not include rookie QB's)

Elite:
Brady (11-3)
Brees (11-3)
Mannaing (Of Course Hurt this year but last 5 years averaged 10-12 wins a season)
Big Ben (10-4)
Aaron Rogers (13-1)

Above Average:
Stafford (9-5)
Matt Ryan (9-5)
Schaub (10-4) (he did most of the work to get here)
Flacco (10-4)
Eli (7-7)
Rivers (7-7)
Romo (8-6)
Vick (6-8) (that whole team was a mess)

Average (to below):
Tarvaris Jackson/Whitehurst (7-7)
Cassel/Orton (6-8) (I will say Cassel played above average last year, and our record showed it, but only 1 out of 3 seasons isn't promising)
Chad Henne/Matt More (5-9)
Freeman (4-10)
Grossman/Beck (5-9)
Caleb Hanee (since the loss of Cutler: 0-4)
Painter/Orlovski (1-13)
Colt McCoy (4-10)
Fitzpatrick (5-9)

Trends and History show that if you have an above average to an elite QB, you typically have a better chance of notching the top records in the league and making it to the playoffs, year in and year out. If you have an average to below average QB, the likelyhood drops that you will consistently field a winning record and compete in the playoffs.

And if you look at that list: The Elite's: 3 were 1st round QB's, which could be 4 because Brees was the #32 overall pick in 01'. Only Brady was a late round pick. The Above Avg: 7 of the 8 were 1st round QB's and the Avg to Belows: only 2 of the 14 were 1st round QB's (which like I say there's always an exception, I think that Freeman is better than his record this year is showing)

Yes there is always the exception like a Trent Dilfer, but when you look at the %'s and recent history it says the the talent you have at the QB positions greatly affects a teams success.

I'm also not saying that every QB in this draft will make it to "elite" status, and that there aren't busts in the 1st round, but once again, if you look at the numbers (even in the league right now) the %'s will more than likely show you, that 1st round QB's have the best chance to become above average QB's.

All I am saying is look at the #'s, I know there are a million ways to build a team, and that you can find diamonds in the rough like Tom Brady, but History has shown that you can't bank on Stanzi becoming a Hall of Famer. If he does, hooray for us! But we need to try to control what we can right now, and stop thinking we can turn a 7th round draft pick into a Tom Brady (because that's only happened how many times before?)

This team is built.... We've got a great D, We've got extremely talented skill players, just imagine the situation a young talented QB would be in, if he landed on this roster. We are only a few positions away from really being competitive year in and year our, and although OG and RT are on that list, I think the more impact-full position is QB...

Jrudi
12-22-2011, 10:15 AM
Jrudi... you just made me throw up a little in my mouth when you said Rivers was an "elite" QB. That statement is so far off base, I feel it is pointless to even try and argue.

I'm just going to leave it with a simple...

... no he's not.


Listen, I hate river's just as much as any Chiefs fan, I think he's a total Jacka**, but sadly we have to admit that he is a pretty darn good QB. Look at what he did last year (stats) with absolutely no help (no Vjax, Gate's was out most of the year, and Mathews wasn't providing any run game)

I hate him, but man he can sling it, and if he had never been a charger, and was a Chief from the start, I think you might have a different opinion of him.

OPLookn
12-22-2011, 10:35 AM
So you listed 24 QB's within a 39 year perior???

I'm not going to waiste my time going back and seeing a total of how many 1st round QB's had a successful career, but my guess is that Odd's are better that you find a decent QB in round 1 vs the one's who became labeled as busts.

The point is that here is about 3 tiers of QB's: Elite, Above Average, Average. Let's look at those QB's and their teams this year: (Note: I did not include rookie QB's)

Elite:
Brady (11-3)
Brees (11-3)
Mannaing (Of Course Hurt this year but last 5 years averaged 10-12 wins a season)
Big Ben (10-4)
Aaron Rogers (13-1)

Above Average:
Stafford (9-5)
Matt Ryan (9-5)
Schaub (10-4) (he did most of the work to get here)
Flacco (10-4)
Eli (7-7)
Rivers (7-7)
Romo (8-6)
Vick (6-8) (that whole team was a mess)

Average (to below):
Tarvaris Jackson/Whitehurst (7-7)
Cassel/Orton (6-8) (I will say Cassel played above average last year, and our record showed it, but only 1 out of 3 seasons isn't promising)
Chad Henne/Matt More (5-9)
Freeman (4-10)
Grossman/Beck (5-9)
Caleb Hanee (since the loss of Cutler: 0-4)
Painter/Orlovski (1-13)
Colt McCoy (4-10)
Fitzpatrick (5-9)

Trends and History show that if you have an above average to an elite QB, you typically have a better chance of notching the top records in the league and making it to the playoffs, year in and year out. If you have an average to below average QB, the likelyhood drops that you will consistently field a winning record and compete in the playoffs.

And if you look at that list: The Elite's: 3 were 1st round QB's, which could be 4 because Brees was the #32 overall pick in 01'. Only Brady was a late round pick. The Above Avg: 7 of the 8 were 1st round QB's and the Avg to Belows: only 2 of the 14 were 1st round QB's (which like I say there's always an exception, I think that Freeman is better than his record this year is showing)

Yes there is always the exception like a Trent Dilfer, but when you look at the %'s and recent history it says the the talent you have at the QB positions greatly affects a teams success.

I'm also not saying that every QB in this draft will make it to "elite" status, and that there aren't busts in the 1st round, but once again, if you look at the numbers (even in the league right now) the %'s will more than likely show you, that 1st round QB's have the best chance to become above average QB's.

All I am saying is look at the #'s, I know there are a million ways to build a team, and that you can find diamonds in the rough like Tom Brady, but History has shown that you can't bank on Stanzi becoming a Hall of Famer. If he does, hooray for us! But we need to try to control what we can right now, and stop thinking we can turn a 7th round draft pick into a Tom Brady (because that's only happened how many times before?)

This team is built.... We've got a great D, We've got extremely talented skill players, just imagine the situation a young talented QB would be in, if he landed on this roster. We are only a few positions away from really being competitive year in and year our, and although OG and RT are on that list, I think the more impact-full position is QB...

Thank you! I got to that list and just couldn't get over the realization that this was 29 people over a 40 year period. Yeah there's going to be a bust or two every year in the first round it happens. But that's 25+ people that weren't busts and I'm sure some of them were QB's. The draft is deep in QB's this year, especially considering that we're talking about 4 of the top 10 guys drafted this year could potentially be QB's. Then you have another 4 or 5 that could be second or third rounders.

Jrudi
12-22-2011, 12:53 PM
Thank you! I got to that list and just couldn't get over the realization that this was 29 people over a 40 year period. Yeah there's going to be a bust or two every year in the first round it happens. But that's 25+ people that weren't busts and I'm sure some of them were QB's. The draft is deep in QB's this year, especially considering that we're talking about 4 of the top 10 guys drafted this year could potentially be QB's. Then you have another 4 or 5 that could be second or third rounders.

No, Thank You!

Exactly what I'm talking about! I'm not saying that there is no possibility of having a 1st round bust (You have them at every position, you just hear about the Quarterbacks because they are the face of their teams)

What I am saying is that the number's and history say that we have a better chance of having an early draft pick turn into a successful QB, than we do of banking on the idea of a 5th-7th rounder to turn into gold (Not saying it can't happen!! There is always guys like Brady and Warner, it just more unlikely to happen) just saying If that is what our plan of actions are to solve our QB issues.... we've got some things to worry about.

boiler01
12-22-2011, 12:58 PM
First off, even though I hate Phillip Rivers, the dude is an elite QB (and hands down the best player on the Chargers team, even in his down year this year) that is not a product of his coaching, I actually think the coaching hampers his abilities.

Dude you sound like a Rivers homer. The guy has ridden one of the most talented teams for many years, and he did not achieve ANYTHING. They would have won multiple superbows with an elite QB. As to coach hampering, are you kidding me, Norv Turner is certainly not a good head coach, but no doubt he's one of the best NFL OC/QB coaches ever in the game. The only reason he got hired was because AJ Smith wanted Rivers to succeed at any cost to cover his ***.



Then for the comment on the Experts not know what they are talking about regarding this years depth at QB??? Are you nuts, those guys get paid for a living to scout those guys, they've got much more information than we do, and I would trust the opinion of a paid professional over a dude on a forum that anyone can join.


Paid professionals certainly are better than the fans on assessment of most players. But when it comes to QBs, all bets are off, and many of those xperts are dumb in the first place, so professional or not, they make lots of dumb mistakes, over and again. Go look at QB draft history. If you don't understand drafting QB is vastly different from drafting other players, then I don't know what to tell you.



Cassel's total QBR with the Chiefs has been 79.8 Ortons career average is 77.15. Flacco's career average is 85.8. so if you look at the #'s then Flacco could be considered better than both Cassel and Orton.

Those tiny differences don't mean much. With the Ravens defense and running game and 4 years in the system, I highly doubt Cassel or Orton could not do better.

chief31
12-22-2011, 01:01 PM
Elite:
Brady (11-3) Late round pick, who was slightly above average when the team was really good.
Brees (11-3) 2nd round pick, dropped from that team, and picked up by another.
Mannaing (Of Course Hurt this year but last 5 years averaged 10-12 wins a season)
Big Ben (10-4) Up and down. The Steelers are great because of the defense. He has helped get the team over the hump. But I would not list him as an elite QB.
Aaron Rogers (13-1)

Above Average:
Stafford (9-5)
Matt Ryan (9-5)
Schaub (10-4) (he did most of the work to get here)
Flacco (10-4)
Eli (7-7)
Rivers (7-7) I would actually put this guy in in place of Big Ben.
Romo (8-6)
Vick (6-8) (that whole team was a mess)

Average (to below):
Tarvaris Jackson/Whitehurst (7-7)
Cassel/Orton (6-8) (I will say Cassel played above average last year, and our record showed it, but only 1 out of 3 seasons isn't promising) 2 Out of his four seasons. And a pretty bad situation for him here, for the most part.
Chad Henne/Matt More (5-9)
Freeman (4-10)
Grossman/Beck (5-9)
Caleb Hanee (since the loss of Cutler: 0-4)
Painter/Orlovski (1-13)
Colt McCoy (4-10)
Fitzpatrick (5-9)

Trends and History show that if you have an above average to an elite QB, you typically have a better chance of notching the top records in the league and making it to the playoffs, year in and year out. If you have an average to below average QB, the likelyhood drops that you will consistently field a winning record and compete in the playoffs.

And if you look at that list: The Elite's: 3 were 1st round QB's, which could be 4 because Brees was the #32 overall pick in 01'. Only Brady was a late round pick. The Above Avg: 7 of the 8 were 1st round QB's and the Avg to Belows: only 2 of the 14 were 1st round QB's (which like I say there's always an exception, I think that Freeman is better than his record this year is showing)

Yes there is always the exception like a Trent Dilfer, but when you look at the %'s and recent history it says the the talent you have at the QB positions greatly affects a teams success.

I'm also not saying that every QB in this draft will make it to "elite" status, and that there aren't busts in the 1st round, but once again, if you look at the numbers (even in the league right now) the %'s will more than likely show you, that 1st round QB's have the best chance to become above average QB's.

All I am saying is look at the #'s, I know there are a million ways to build a team, and that you can find diamonds in the rough like Tom Brady, but History has shown that you can't bank on Stanzi becoming a Hall of Famer. If he does, hooray for us! But we need to try to control what we can right now, and stop thinking we can turn a 7th round draft pick into a Tom Brady (because that's only happened how many times before?)

This team is built.... We've got a great D, We've got extremely talented skill players, just imagine the situation a young talented QB would be in, if he landed on this roster. We are only a few positions away from really being competitive year in and year our, and although OG and RT are on that list, I think the more impact-full position is QB...

I have had this discussion a few times.

And, if you look at the best ever, as far as championships, then you have an average (ish) Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, and both are overshadowed by late round picks, in Montana, and Brady.

The primary reason first round picks have more, overall, success, is because they are given more than enough chances to become good.

Look at Alex Smith.

And with Cassel, he has had three and a half seasons, with great success through tow of them, and has been in an unfavorable situation for three of those seasons.

If this were a true rookie, having been as successful as Cassel, in under four seasons, anybody would be a fool to throw him away.

He has been pretty close to the elites for two seasons.

I think the fact that Cassel is not our own draftee really changes perspective for many.

This season, Cassel was the guy who had to take the reigns for a team that had a whole of changes to be adjusted to, and Palko and Orton are getting to run with the team, after they have worked together for most of the year.

Not to mention the change in play-calling.

We may deal Cassel this offseason.

And I think that would be a bad idea.

He has played for this team during all the garbage, and now might not be allowed to play for us, once we have gotten the offense in better shape.

boiler01
12-22-2011, 02:13 PM
Uhh. Why are people trying to prove that a 1st round QB has better chances to be elite than late rounders? Nobody denies that FACT...

The thing people enjoy ignoring is that drafting QB, in any round, is no sure thing. Lots of highly touted prospects do not pan out. It's not just one bust a year, many first round QBs fail in NFL. Go google, go wiki, whatever. It is not a given that your new dream QB will do any better than the current ones. If you are not desperate in QB and not in the position to take one such as Luck, you pass. It's that simple.

ctchiefsfan
12-22-2011, 02:32 PM
I'm not sure I go along with your thesis entirely. Certainly 1st round QB picks are risky. But then QB risks are worth taking if you have a generally good team.

If Orton looks good the next 2 weeks, I would be OK with using a draft pick to package with Cassel to move up in the draft and get a QB.

We still need o-line help and some depth on defense, but I think we could achieve those needs in the 2cond and 3rd round and through free agency.

We currently have 2 decent to good QBs on the roster and I suspect we can't/won't keep both of them. Neither one is going to want to be a backup. So since we will pretty much have to lose one of them, I'd be OK with packaging one of them with a draft pick to get a truly hot prospect QB.

That said, I'd be OK with looking mostly for o-line and some depth on defense.

boiler01
12-22-2011, 03:03 PM
QB risks are worth taking if you have a generally good team.

Totally agree. The thing is, is Chiefs a good team (other than the QB position)? How many people believed that before the Packers game? How many now? It's rather interesting that one game can make such a dramatic impact.

Jrudi
12-22-2011, 03:10 PM
Uhh. Why are people trying to prove that a 1st round QB has better chances to be elite than late rounders? Nobody denies that FACT...

The thing people enjoy ignoring is that drafting QB, in any round, is no sure thing. Lots of highly touted prospects do not pan out. It's not just one bust a year, many first round QBs fail in NFL. Go google, go wiki, whatever. It is not a given that your new dream QB will do any better than the current ones. If you are not desperate in QB and not in the position to take one such as Luck, you pass. It's that simple.

There is never a sure thing with any draft pick at any position, it's that simple. (people arguing about QB's or LOT's are easier to find in later rounds are just full of it, it's a crap shoot.) My point was stating that there are players that make it regardless of what pick they are, hell there are undrafted players that become hall of famers'. But there are reasons that a player is picked in the 1st round, they are viewed (At the time) as elite talent comparable to what is available at that year, and I guarantee that if you could find a success rate by round, the 1st round would have the most success out of any round at ALL of the positions.

If you went up to Pioli and asked him hey this year I'm going to give you a choice; the NFL decided they want to let you choose to get 4 extra draft choices, but all four have to be in the same round, you can have a total of 5 1st round selections, or 5 7th round selections. My bet is that Pioli would take the 7th rounders because he's banking on finding a Brady again....Seriously it's a no brainier.

PEOPLE DON'T HEAR ABOUT 2ND-7TH ROUND PICKS THAT DON'T WORK OUT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT 1ST ROUND PICKS!!!!

With that said, I have mentioned that we are in a good situation with Cassel, and Orton, and the possibilities that they bring as far as how we could move them, restructure contracts, or whatever. I agree with those that say it is extremely likely BOTH are not on the roster next year, so my opinion is, if we are in the POSITION to take a talented QB in rounds 1-2 I think it is a big enough need on this team to take a chance on one.

Ryfo18
12-22-2011, 03:14 PM
Totally agree. The thing is, is Chiefs a good team (other than the QB position)? How many people believed that before the Packers game? How many now? It's rather interesting that one game can make such a dramatic impact.

I have liked the defense all year...And can hardly pin the blowout games on them (turnovers, no offense, etc.). Given a competent offense, this team can compete. Last week just further confirmed my assumptions.

Jrudi
12-22-2011, 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?p=248377#post248377)
QB risks are worth taking if you have a generally good team.


Love this Quote.

I truly believe that the success of a young player is highly dependent on the situation he is placed in and the talent around him, no matter what position they are playing.

The Chiefs have a good foundation built for a young talented player to have success.

TopekaRoy
12-22-2011, 09:07 PM
I'd be OK with packaging one of them with a draft pick to get a truly hot prospect QB.

That sounds like a good idea, but if a team is in a position to draft a Luck or a Griffin, why would they give that up for Cassel or Orton and an extra pick? If they need a QB wouldn't they just draft the "superstar" qb.

To move up and snag one of those QBs I think we would have to deal with a team that doesn't want or need a QB and that means we would either have to give them several picks or someone like Charles or Hali, which I wouldn't be willing to do.

Ans now that Barclay is off the table our chances of having a great QB fall to us has gotten even lower, especially if we win our next two games.

ctchiefsfan
12-22-2011, 10:54 PM
That sounds like a good idea, but if a team is in a position to draft a Luck or a Griffin, why would they give that up for Cassel or Orton and an extra pick? If they need a QB wouldn't they just draft the "superstar" qb.

To move up and snag one of those QBs I think we would have to deal with a team that doesn't want or need a QB and that means we would either have to give them several picks or someone like Charles or Hali, which I wouldn't be willing to do.

Ans now that Barclay is off the table our chances of having a great QB fall to us has gotten even lower, especially if we win our next two games.

Good points Topeka. As for giving up Hali or Charles....NFW!

ctchiefsfan
12-22-2011, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by ctchiefsfan http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?p=248377#post248377)
QB risks are worth taking if you have a generally good team.


Love this Quote.

I truly believe that the success of a young player is highly dependent on the situation he is placed in and the talent around him, no matter what position they are playing.

The Chiefs have a good foundation built for a young talented player to have success.


Thanks!!! And yeah, I certainly think we have an environment that will allow any truly talented athlete to excel. We're real close to where we want to be.