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View Full Version : Cassel always had better WR's then Orton



figcrostic
12-22-2011, 01:54 PM
Some people say Cassel has better numbers so he's the better QB, I think Orton has never had the talent Cassel has. Lets look at their WR's over the years

Cassel
2008: Wes Welker (still one of the best wr's in the league), Randy Moss(the year prior he had 1500 yards and 23 td's, Jabar Gaffney (ok wr)
2009: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers, Quinten Lawrence very comparable to Orton's cast of 2009 except Bowe is more talented then Lloyd
2010: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers (about the same as royal), Terrance Copper (better the Mckinnley). 2010 I think the slight edge goes to KC again especially considering we had Moeaki and Charles.

Orton
2008: Devin Hester, Brandon Lloyd (I know people think Brandon Lloyd is amazing but look at his career prior to Orton and after he was mediocore)
2009: Eddie Royal (Royal had one good year but hasn't done anything since), Brandon Lloyd, Kenny McKinley (don't even know who this is)
2010: Same cast as 2009 but Orton turned Brandon Lloyd into a pro-bowler with 1500 yards and 11 td's previously he had never had over 755 yards in a season.

Listen I'm not saying Orton is the best, but I have always thought he was slightly better then Cassel even when he was a donkey. Now he may prove me wrong but from what I've seen over the last couple years I see a good qb that was put in a bad situation this could very well be Rich Gannon. Look at Rich Gannon's career he was never thought of as a good player he went from team to team until the Faiders picked him up and believed in him. Orton has never had anyone believe in him and I think depending on how the next couple games go he could and should be our starter. If he sucks I will be right along with the other haters but until then I like what I see.

dbolan
12-22-2011, 01:56 PM
His Chicago rec corp was...Well...Sad. LOL

SIC J
12-22-2011, 02:06 PM
Two different style QBs. Cassel is a game manager. Orton is a slinger. The problem I've always had with Orton is he gets trigger happy and starts making mistakes. Then once he makes a mistake, he gets frustrated and continues to make more mistakes.

boiler01
12-22-2011, 02:56 PM
Two different style QBs. Cassel is a game manager. Orton is a slinger. The problem I've always had with Orton is he gets trigger happy and starts making mistakes. Then once he makes a mistake, he gets frustrated and continues to make more mistakes.

What you said is exactly opposite to what most people know. If you have followed and watched Orton for long, most times he has played conservatively, either aksed to, or in worry of job security. He got a bit aggressive last year because there was no running game nor defense. I hope he can go back as a slinger, he can, and he has to if he wants to become a franchise QB.

The notion that he is error prone is ridiculous and it is nothing but a very unfair label made out by some donkeys. When you have not much supporting cast and you have to throw the ball like crazy you are doomed to make mistakes. That being said, let's have a look at the career stats for the upper level QBs other than the big 3 (stats as of today from ESPN):

#Pass #Int #Pass/Int
M Ryan 1961 46 42.6
J Flacco 1915 45 42.6
P Rivers 2958 75 39.4
M Schaub 2279 58 39.3
M Cassel 1767 45 39.3
K Orton 2139 55 38.9
T Romo 2553 71 36.0
A Smith 1903 58 32.8
Big Ben 3273 100 32.7
C Palmer 3476 113 30.8
M Staford 1041 35 29.7
J Freeman 1232 42 29.3
J Cutler 2521 86 29.3
M Sanchez 1323 46 28.8

boiler01
12-22-2011, 03:27 PM
If you look at the last 2 years Oront's #pass per #int is actually much better,

2009: 541 passes, 12 ints, 45.1 pass/int
2010: 498 passes, 9 ints, 55.3 pass/int

I highly suspect that is among the league's bests. So no, nobody with a sane mind can say Orton is turnover prone.

boiler01
12-22-2011, 03:42 PM
Big 4's pass int ratio in 2010:

Brady: 492 4 123.0 (outrageous it is)
Rogers: 475 11 43.2
Brees: 658 22 29.9
Manning: 571 15 38.1

I'm not saying Orton is anywhere as good as those guys, just to prove that he is not a turnover machine as some donkey fans claimed.

Clutch or not, 55 passes an INT should win many games on many teams.

SIC J
12-22-2011, 04:37 PM
Actually I had that thought about him BEFORE he went to the Broncos.

SIC J
12-22-2011, 04:39 PM
Now instead of looking at his overall stats, pay attention to what I said, and look at his game logs. You will understand what I was talking about.

boiler01
12-22-2011, 05:16 PM
I followed pretty much every game of Orton. Other than his rookie year, he never turned over ball much as some people claimed. FACT is that Orton is not any more turnover prone than any good QBs out there. Period. Sure you can always pick some games to support your points, but you can do so to any QB or any player.

You can say Orton is not clutch, journeyman, whatever, but to claim he's (more) error prone (than any other good QBs) is ridiculous and totally bogus.

matthewschiefs
12-22-2011, 09:51 PM
Man it doesnt matter what you say or show them because most of the people on this forum are "pro cassel." I honestly have no idea why

I don't think that there is a large number of pro Cassel people left. Some are just not not willing to put most of the blame on Cassel for why the offense has struggled but that doesn't mean that they are pro Cassel. Myself I am for anyone that can come in and do the job and do it well. If Cassel can fine if Orton can fine.

chief31
12-22-2011, 10:07 PM
Man it doesnt matter what you say or show them because most of the people on this forum are "pro cassel." I honestly have no idea why

A.) That is not true. Not even close.

B.) Just like Orton, Cassel had a rough start to the season, because of a bad situation.

Chiefster
12-22-2011, 10:09 PM
Man it doesnt matter what you say or show them because most of the people on this forum are "pro cassel." I honestly have no idea why



A.) That is not true. Not even close.

B.) Just like Orton, Cassel had a rough start to the season, because of a bad situation.



This!

I have stated on numerous occasions that I would like to see Orton compete with Cassel for the starting job.

chief31
12-22-2011, 10:48 PM
Cassel
2008: Wes Welker (still one of the best wr's in the league), Randy Moss(the year prior he had 1500 yards and 23 td's, Jabar Gaffney (ok wr)
2009: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers, Quinten Lawrence very comparable to Orton's cast of 2009 except Bowe is more talented then Lloyd
2010: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers (about the same as royal), Terrance Copper (better the Mckinnley). 2010 I think the slight edge goes to KC again especially considering we had Moeaki and Charles.

Orton
2008: Devin Hester, Brandon Lloyd (I know people think Brandon Lloyd is amazing but look at his career prior to Orton and after he was mediocore)
2009: Eddie Royal (Royal had one good year but hasn't done anything since), Brandon Lloyd, Kenny McKinley (don't even know who this is)
2010: Same cast as 2009 but Orton turned Brandon Lloyd into a pro-bowler with 1500 yards and 11 td's previously he had never had over 755 yards in a season.



2008, granted.
2009, no.
2010, no.

Lloyd - 9 Games; 42 Catches; 554 Yards, 4 TDs
Bowe - 9 Games; 46 Catches; 566 Yards, 0 TDs

And that is with a new offense, a sophmore QB (Most games) and the worst offense in The NFL.

Brandon Lloyd is pretty good. As strong as any case for Orton making Lloyd good, the reverse case, of Lloyd making Orton good is just as strong. And a pretty strong case for Lloyd, against Bowe, could be made too.

How did Orton look before he teamed up with Lloyd?

Who made who?

Chris Chambers, 2009 - 36 Catches, 608 Yards; 4 TDs ... 2010- 22 Catches; 213 Yards; 1 TD.

Eddie Royal, 2009 - 37 Catches; 345 Yards; 0 TDs ... 2010 - 59 Catches, 627 Yards, 3 TDs

And you forgot 2009/10 Jabar Gaffney playing for The Broncos....

2009 - 54 Catches; 732 Yards; 2 TDs ... 2010 - 65 Catches; 875 Yards; 2 TDs

That is a pretty big omission.

And, just to show what kind of talent Gaffney is, he has 58 Catches; 842 Yards; and 4 TDs this season, with The Redskins.

I think that, if you place Gaffney up against Chambers for 2009, and 2010, and then put Royal against Quentin Lawrence, and Terrance Copper, you will probably be forced to come the conclusion that Orton had the better WRs in both of those years.

2010chiefs
12-22-2011, 11:30 PM
Like he said PRO Cassel! I'm Pro Chiefs that's why I say Cassel stinks. Orton should start if he wins the next two games. Cassel has had plenty of chances this year and it made me sick to watch him almost every game this year. Same team and Orton lit it up.

chief31
12-22-2011, 11:36 PM
Like he said PRO Cassel! I'm Pro Chiefs that's why I say Cassel stinks. Orton should start if he wins the next two games. Cassel has had plenty of chances this year and it made me sick to watch him almost every game this year. Same team and Orton lit it up.

I am just about Matt Cassel's only defender, and that does not mean that I think he is better than Orton.

Very tough call for me.

As for being pro-Chiefs, while so openly anti-Chief (Cassel) no need to try and rationalize that to me.

I have seen Chiefs players who, I have thought were holding the team back.

Matt Cassel is not of them.

And, while Orton had a good game against a great team, he did not "light it up".

TopekaRoy
12-23-2011, 12:59 AM
I am just about Matt Cassel's only defender, and that does not mean that I think he is better than Orton.

Very tough call for me.

As for being pro-Chiefs, while so openly anti-Chief (Cassel) no need to try and rationalize that to me.

I have seen Chiefs players who, I have thought were holding the team back.

Matt Cassel is not of them.

And, while Orton had a good game against a great team, he did not "light it up".I would also say "lit it up" is a bit of a stretch, but he did play very well.

And just for the record, I defended Cassel right up until he got injured and I posted elsewhere a comparison, that Orton and Cassel are very much the same QB. But there were a few things about Sunday's game that really impressed me.

1) It looked like Orton is much better with Play action passes. He did a good job of disguising the play by "selling" the hand off until the very last instant giving him that extra 1/2 second or so to make the pass before the defense could react. In this way he was able to complete 23 of 31 passes (74%) for a passer rating of 104.1 which is pretty hard to do without a TD pass or a completion of over 39 yards.

2) He was very quick to pick up the blitz and get the ball out to the open man, which is part of the reason why his completion percentage was so high, and a big part of why he was never sacked. I give full credit to the oline for often picking up the extra rusher and giving Orton extra time to throw as well. But it seems like whenever Cassel was blitzed, he would panic and dump the ball off at the line of scrimmage for no gain, or throw the ball away.

3) And I don't remember when I have ever seen this before. Orton completed a pass to every eligible receiver on the team that played in the game. 23 completions scattered around to 10 different players. How do you defend against that?

If Cassel was healthy could he have done all that? maybe, but I'm not so sure. And Orton did all this in his first game with this offense. Let's suppose with more practice his timing with the receivers gets better. Suppose with Charles running the ball, the passing game gets better. Suppose we improve the offensive line next year, and suppose Baldwin, who hasn't even played a full season yet, improves like Bowe eventually did. How high is Orton's ceiling under those circumstances?

Wouldn't you like to find out?

figcrostic
12-23-2011, 01:16 AM
What about Jamaal Charles? What RB did Orton have for the defense to get the focus off of the passing game?

Don't forget about Moeaki :bananen_smilies046:

figcrostic
12-23-2011, 01:17 AM
2008, granted.
2009, no.
2010, no.

Lloyd - 9 Games; 42 Catches; 554 Yards, 4 TDs
Bowe - 9 Games; 46 Catches; 566 Yards, 0 TDs

And that is with a new offense, a sophmore QB (Most games) and the worst offense in The NFL.

Brandon Lloyd is pretty good. As strong as any case for Orton making Lloyd good, the reverse case, of Lloyd making Orton good is just as strong. And a pretty strong case for Lloyd, against Bowe, could be made too.

How did Orton look before he teamed up with Lloyd?

Who made who?

Chris Chambers, 2009 - 36 Catches, 608 Yards; 4 TDs ... 2010- 22 Catches; 213 Yards; 1 TD.

Eddie Royal, 2009 - 37 Catches; 345 Yards; 0 TDs ... 2010 - 59 Catches, 627 Yards, 3 TDs

And you forgot 2009/10 Jabar Gaffney playing for The Broncos....

2009 - 54 Catches; 732 Yards; 2 TDs ... 2010 - 65 Catches; 875 Yards; 2 TDs

That is a pretty big omission.

And, just to show what kind of talent Gaffney is, he has 58 Catches; 842 Yards; and 4 TDs this season, with The Redskins.

I think that, if you place Gaffney up against Chambers for 2009, and 2010, and then put Royal against Quentin Lawrence, and Terrance Copper, you will probably be forced to come the conclusion that Orton had the better WRs in both of those years.



I'm starting to think you just enjoy to argue, I seem to remember us both liking Cassel for what he is but agreeing he was around average and thinking Orton was a little better. No?

AkChief49
12-23-2011, 01:34 AM
I would also say "lit it up" is a bit of a stretch, but he did play very well.

And just for the record, I defended Cassel right up until he got injured and I posted elsewhere a comparison, that Orton and Cassel are very much the same QB. But there were a few things about Sunday's game that really impressed me.

1) It looked like Orton is much better with Play action passes. He did a good job of disguising the play by "selling" the hand off until the very last instant giving him that extra 1/2 second or so to make the pass before the defense could react. In this way he was able to complete 23 of 31 passes (74%) for a passer rating of 104.1 which is pretty hard to do without a TD pass or a completion of over 39 yards.

2) He was very quick to pick up the blitz and get the ball out to the open man, which is part of the reason why his completion percentage was so high, and a big part of why he was never sacked. I give full credit to the oline for often picking up the extra rusher and giving Orton extra time to throw as well. But it seems like whenever Cassel was blitzed, he would panick and dump the ball off at the line of scrimmage for no gain, or throw the ball away.

3) And I don't remember when I have ever seen this before. Orton completed a pass to every eligible receiver on the team that played in the game. 23 completions scattered around to 10 different players. How do you defend against that?

If Cassel was healthy could he have done all that? maybe, but I'm not so sure. And Orton did all this in his first game with this offense. Let's suppose with more practice his timing with the receivers gets better. Suppose with Charles running the ball, the passing game gets better. Suppose we improve the offensive line next year, and suppose Baldwin, who hasn;t even played a full season yet, improves like Bowe eventually did. How high is Orton's ceiling under those circumstances?

Wouldn't you like to find out?
I just got through watching the game again and had this same thought. I also watched our pre-season game with GB again, Cassel does a nice job at the play action but I have to agree Orton looked better at selling it.

The SD game at Arrowhead-Cassel looked poised in the pocket, had time etc. is it the blocking? Because Orton looked very poised in the pocket.

Was it that Orton went against one of the worst pass defenses? The Patriots are as bad or worse against the pass........ oh wait, Palko- never mind.

Hanging on to the ball as long as we did(36+ min.) had a whole bunch to do with it. Sustained drives.
I'm glad Orton is here. More competition. I think Chiefster said it: Let 'em battle it out, old school.

ctchiefsfan
12-23-2011, 02:00 AM
Man it doesnt matter what you say or show them because most of the people on this forum are "pro cassel." I honestly have no idea why

You are such a dipstick.

There are no die-hard Cassel people here. There are only Chiefs fans.

The only thing anyone has said about Orton is "Let's see what he does against Oakland and Denver."

If he plays against those two teams like he did against Green Bay the only thing you will hear around here is "Matt Who?"

But you don't toss a QB that led you to the playoffs and made the pro bowl because some new guy has 1 good game.

TopekaRoy
12-23-2011, 02:07 AM
Majority of starters on d for GB didnt play in that game
What are you talking about? The Chiefs game? I just checked their depth chart and the only starter that didn't play was Charles Woodson.

1 player out of 11 does not a majority make.

AkChief49
12-23-2011, 02:12 AM
What are you talking about? The Chiefs game? I just checked their depth chart and the only starter that didn't play was Charles Woodson.

1 player out of 11 does not a majority make.
He has to be talking about the Pre-season game.-Yep!

TopekaRoy
12-23-2011, 02:28 AM
You need to look at the Defensive box score again


Kansas City Chiefs vs. Green Bay Packers - Box Score - September 01, 2011 - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=310901009)
I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about a real game. You never mentioned preseason and AKChiefs49 talked about both games in the post you quoted so I was confused.

doobs_05
12-23-2011, 02:32 AM
Cassel is a back up at best......look at his college numbers



http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/9/95/95c16de9_trollface.png

nigeriannightmare
12-23-2011, 09:10 AM
What about Jamaal Charles? What RB did Orton have for the defense to get the focus off of the passing game?

Ur right the bears have never been known to run the ball pretty sure a certain thomas jones was there 1000 yard rusher till he was sold out. And cedric benson, and now matt forte.

nigeriannightmare
12-23-2011, 09:14 AM
Some people say Cassel has better numbers so he's the better QB, I think Orton has never had the talent Cassel has. Lets look at their WR's over the years

Cassel
2008: Wes Welker (still one of the best wr's in the league), Randy Moss(the year prior he had 1500 yards and 23 td's, Jabar Gaffney (ok wr)
2009: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers, Quinten Lawrence very comparable to Orton's cast of 2009 except Bowe is more talented then Lloyd
2010: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers (about the same as royal), Terrance Copper (better the Mckinnley). 2010 I think the slight edge goes to KC again especially considering we had Moeaki and Charles.

Orton
2008: Devin Hester, Brandon Lloyd (I know people think Brandon Lloyd is amazing but look at his career prior to Orton and after he was mediocore)
2009: Eddie Royal (Royal had one good year but hasn't done anything since), Brandon Lloyd, Kenny McKinley (don't even know who this is)
2010: Same cast as 2009 but Orton turned Brandon Lloyd into a pro-bowler with 1500 yards and 11 td's previously he had never had over 755 yards in a season.

Listen I'm not saying Orton is the best, but I have always thought he was slightly better then Cassel even when he was a donkey. Now he may prove me wrong but from what I've seen over the last couple years I see a good qb that was put in a bad situation this could very well be Rich Gannon. Look at Rich Gannon's career he was never thought of as a good player he went from team to team until the Faiders picked him up and believed in him. Orton has never had anyone believe in him and I think depending on how the next couple games go he could and should be our starter. If he sucks I will be right along with the other haters but until then I like what I see.

U honestly think bowe, copper, an over the hill chambers are the same as lloyd, royal, and jabar gafney.....that is not a fair comparison at all.

azchiefsfan
12-23-2011, 11:32 AM
From what I have seen of Orton and after 3 seasons of Cassel, I would break it down thusly:
Healthy and strong OL: Cassel
Beat up and weak OL: Orton
Judgement and decision-making: Cassel
Ball control: Cassel
Shoot-out game: Orton

I think with a stronger and healthy offense, I want Cassel back there not giving up the ball and directing the juggernaut. For a battered and faltering offense, I want Orton just chucking the ball like a caveman to make something happen. If our offense gets back to last years form, I want Cassel as he is a laser artist with a good crew around him. If we are still struggling and need a spark and someone to take chance to get us going, it looks like Orton might be the guy.

azchiefsfan
12-23-2011, 12:09 PM
p.s. I mean who would I want in each circumstance.

OPLookn
12-23-2011, 12:10 PM
2008, granted.
2009, no.
2010, no.

Lloyd - 9 Games; 42 Catches; 554 Yards, 4 TDs
Bowe - 9 Games; 46 Catches; 566 Yards, 0 TDs

And that is with a new offense, a sophmore QB (Most games) and the worst offense in The NFL.

Brandon Lloyd is pretty good. As strong as any case for Orton making Lloyd good, the reverse case, of Lloyd making Orton good is just as strong. And a pretty strong case for Lloyd, against Bowe, could be made too.

How did Orton look before he teamed up with Lloyd?

Who made who?

Chris Chambers, 2009 - 36 Catches, 608 Yards; 4 TDs ... 2010- 22 Catches; 213 Yards; 1 TD.

Eddie Royal, 2009 - 37 Catches; 345 Yards; 0 TDs ... 2010 - 59 Catches, 627 Yards, 3 TDs

And you forgot 2009/10 Jabar Gaffney playing for The Broncos....

2009 - 54 Catches; 732 Yards; 2 TDs ... 2010 - 65 Catches; 875 Yards; 2 TDs

That is a pretty big omission.

And, just to show what kind of talent Gaffney is, he has 58 Catches; 842 Yards; and 4 TDs this season, with The Redskins.

I think that, if you place Gaffney up against Chambers for 2009, and 2010, and then put Royal against Quentin Lawrence, and Terrance Copper, you will probably be forced to come the conclusion that Orton had the better WRs in both of those years.



Where did you get the stats for the highlighted red part? If you're talking about 2009 Lloyd only played in 2 games. In 2010 both Bowe and Lloyd played in all 16 games.

But overall I agree with you, I'd say Orton had the edge or they'd be about equal at best. The other thing to look at though is the line. Denver didn't really start addressing the O-line until 2010 and finished it off in 2011. My guess is that Orton was running for his life just like Cassel was in 2009. In 2010 Denver's line was starting to gel but still had some holes. As for the Chiefs our rushing attack kept people off Cassel. So I'd have to give Orton the edge in having a worse situation in 2010.

Either way, I'm not saying one is better than the other. All I know is that the NFL is a what have you done for me lately league and Orton just beat the reigning SB champs that look to repeat this year. I also like the fact that Orton gets the ball, makes his reads and gets rid of the ball faster. Which is why I lean towards Orton but that's like asking which of the two ugly gals over in the corner is the most pretty.

:lol:

OPLookn
12-23-2011, 12:41 PM
Oh my bad I thought whoever it was above was comparing Orton's game against the packers to cassel's preseason game against the pack

You've got to be out of your mind trying to compare a preseason game against a regular season game. I don't care that they both played this year. That's like saying hey compare these two completely different teams in 2009 and 2010 and see how the different QB's were against them.

:whipping1:

okikcfan
12-23-2011, 04:19 PM
From what I have seen of Orton and after 3 seasons of Cassel, I would break it down thusly:
Healthy and strong OL: Cassel
Beat up and weak OL: Orton
Judgement and decision-making: Cassel
Ball control: Cassel
Shoot-out game: Orton

I think with a stronger and healthy offense, I want Cassel back there not giving up the ball and directing the juggernaut. For a battered and faltering offense, I want Orton just chucking the ball like a caveman to make something happen. If our offense gets back to last years form, I want Cassel as he is a laser artist with a good crew around him. If we are still struggling and need a spark and someone to take chance to get us going, it looks like Orton might be the guy.

He's played one game. I think he should be given the chance and see how he does these next 2 games before kicking him to the curb....

nigeriannightmare
12-23-2011, 04:23 PM
Haha yeah, cedric benson really worked out well for the bears huh?

Orton was a rookie when he had thomas jones and it was forte's first year in the league

Rolls eyes

Ortons rookie yr was arguably his best at 10 wins and 5 losses. U r about as shortsided as anyone i have ever read.
Yeah cedtic benson sucks ur right.

TopekaRoy
12-23-2011, 04:25 PM
Haha yeah, cedric benson really worked out well for the bears huh?

Orton was a rookie when he had thomas jones and it was forte's first year in the league

Rolls eyes
The Bears made a mistake getting rid of Cedric. He had a terrible attitude and wasn't liked by his team mates, but he was productive.

2005 (Orton played 15 games) Benson rushed for 272 yds, Jones for 1335 yds; 1607 yds combined

2008 (Orton played 15 games) Forte rushed for 1238 yds

So in the 2 years that Kyle was the starter he had plenty of run support.

SIC J
12-23-2011, 04:39 PM
When will you hold cassel responsible for his play? When we have our 2005 esque offensive line? When we get Tony G back? When we have a 3 pro bowl WR set?

Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton HAVE THE SAME TEAM NOW

Is it really? According to recent reports, the Chiefs offense ran more smoothly without Haley on the sidelines.

Let's not forget the Cassel has had 4 DIFFERENT OC's in the last 3 years. You don't think that makes a difference? LOL

Three7s
12-23-2011, 05:14 PM
Is it really? According to recent reports, the Chiefs offense ran more smoothly without Haley on the sidelines.

Let's not forget the Cassel has had 4 DIFFERENT OC's in the last 3 years. You don't think that makes a difference? LOL
It hasn't for Brady.

ctchiefsfan
12-23-2011, 05:18 PM
It hasn't for Brady.

And Cassel is no Brady. Nobody is denying that.

Three7s
12-23-2011, 05:24 PM
And Cassel is no Brady. Nobody is denying that.
And that's my point. I want a franchise QB that can be considered elite, no more of these mediocre retreads from other teams.

nigeriannightmare
12-23-2011, 05:27 PM
I never said he sucks at all, I did make a comment about his time in Chicago. How did Cedric Benson do in chicago? You want to say "Well kyle orton had thomas jones" Ok, but that was also in his ROOKIE SEASON.

You talk about thinking "outside the box" yet you are one of the pro pioli and pro cassel supporters on here. Demanding no change just complacent with mediocrity. Comparing Cassel to Orton now that they are on the same team is unfair to orton because he has only been here for i dont know, 3 weeks versus 2.5 years with cassel. You cant compare two quarterbacks on completely different teams. I just think Cassel with Jamaal Charles, moaeki, and bowe had more weapons than orton did with Lloyd and....? in denver

And im not saying orton sucks either but cassel is not as terrible as u make him out to be its obvious now that haley was not capable of getting the job. Last yr mat cassels had superior numbers to kyle orton period.

azchiefsfan
12-23-2011, 05:29 PM
I don't think that statement can be directed at my post. I wrote in certain instances Orton would do better, more than likely. I hope he tries out for us next year.

ctchiefsfan
12-23-2011, 05:30 PM
And that's my point. I want a franchise QB that can be considered elite, no more of these mediocre retreads from other teams.

I'd love to see us with one of the top QBs in the NFL. I think everyone here would.

For now though, we have to make do with what we have.

nigeriannightmare
12-23-2011, 05:33 PM
I never said he sucks at all, I did make a comment about his time in Chicago. How did Cedric Benson do in chicago? You want to say "Well kyle orton had thomas jones" Ok, but that was also in his ROOKIE SEASON.

You talk about thinking "outside the box" yet you are one of the pro pioli and pro cassel supporters on here. Demanding no change just complacent with mediocrity. Comparing Cassel to Orton now that they are on the same team is unfair to orton because he has only been here for i dont know, 3 weeks versus 2.5 years with cassel. You cant compare two quarterbacks on completely different teams. I just think Cassel with Jamaal Charles, moaeki, and bowe had more weapons than orton did with Lloyd and....? in denver

Im not anti orton either. Lets keep them both for a yr then trade whomever isnt starting after next yr.

nigeriannightmare
12-23-2011, 06:28 PM
Healthy and strong Oline: Cassel

Beat up line: Orton

What?

Cassel is a game manager from the standpoint he doesnt move the ball, he has to rely on the running game or the defense to win the game. Only 4 times this year has he had games more than 200 yards. That is absolutely horrible

He threw 27 tds last yr same "easy" schedule for orton who threw 20 and the passing game was all they had. They r more even than u think.

chief31
12-23-2011, 09:43 PM
I'm starting to think you just enjoy to argue, I seem to remember us both liking Cassel for what he is but agreeing he was around average and thinking Orton was a little better. No?

I think Cassel and Orton are a close comparison.

But how does that translate to my pointing out that you overlooked one of Orton's biggest targets, while making a case that Cassel had better receivers?

I wasn't expecting any argument out of you.

Did Jabar Gaffney play for The Broncos in 2009, and 2010, or not?

What's to argue?

chief31
12-23-2011, 09:53 PM
One of the best RB in the league for that matter. Any other qb SHOULD look a lot better with a rb like Chris Johnson, Adrian Peterson, Jamaal Charles etc... Right Chief 31?

Yes and moeaki, cheers fig

Well, let's look at the QBs who do the best, and see, shall we?

Brady, Patriots - 20th in Rushing.
Rodgers, Packers - 25th in Rushing.
Brees, Saints - 8th in Rushing.
E. Manning, Giants - 32nd in Rushing.

Hmm. Doesn't look all that great from that angle.

Let's see how the passing is for the teams with the RBs you mentioned...

Johnson, Tennesee - 13th in Passing.
Peterson, Minnesota - 28th in Passing.

Well, darn, that doesn't favor your argument either.

You don't think that teams who rely heavily on their running games might pass a little less often, do you?

Just for kicks, what do ya say we see how the #1 Rushing team in The NFL ranks in passing?

Well..... What do you know?

The Denver Broncos lead The NFL in rushing, and yet they rank 31st in Passing.

Hmmmmm.

What was your point, again?

chief31
12-23-2011, 09:55 PM
Where did you get the stats for the highlighted red part? If you're talking about 2009 Lloyd only played in 2 games. In 2010 both Bowe and Lloyd played in all 16 games.



That is the past nine games, since Lloyd left Denver.

It was in response to the notion that Lloyd is not that good, and that Orton made him look good.

chief31
12-23-2011, 10:00 PM
Yes all of the pressure was on orton. He had lloyd and who else? What running game did he have to divert the attention from the passing game?



Eddie Royal, 2009 - 37 Catches; 345 Yards; 0 TDs ... 2010 - 59 Catches, 627 Yards, 3 TDs

And you forgot 2009/10 Jabar Gaffney playing for The Broncos....

2009 - 54 Catches; 732 Yards; 2 TDs ... 2010 - 65 Catches; 875 Yards; 2 TDs

That is a pretty big omission.

And, just to show what kind of talent Gaffney is, he has 58 Catches; 842 Yards; and 4 TDs this season, with The Redskins.

Not like this information was readily available, right in this exact thread, or anything....:D

chief31
12-23-2011, 10:06 PM
Cassel had an elite RB that can run and catch out of the backfield that almost beat Jim Brown's YPC record. He also had Dwayne bowe who i think statistically was the best WR in the NFL last year, if not the best he was surely up there as well as moaeki

Mm. Hmm.

And Matt Cassel led his team (previously 4-12, following 2-14) to 10-6.

Orton led his team (Previously 8-8, following 8-8) to 3-7.

But I bet there are plenty of "excuses" for that, right?

chief31
12-23-2011, 10:14 PM
What about Jamaal Charles? What RB did Orton have for the defense to get the focus off of the passing game?


One of the best RB in the league for that matter. Any other qb SHOULD look a lot better with a rb like Chris Johnson, Adrian Peterson, Jamaal Charles etc... Right Chief 31?

Yes and moeaki, cheers fig

The topic is.....

"Cassel always had better WR's then Orton"

So let's try to forget about Charles and Moekai for the discussion of who had better WRs.

chief31
12-23-2011, 10:18 PM
And now we can compare my friend because they are on the same team

If you had looked at my previous posts I dont care if orton is our long term answer, I just want cassel out of there. And cassel "led" his team? Really? First in rushing in the league isnt "leading?" But 24th in passing yards per game or whatever it was is? Interesting

He sure did a good job "leading" us this year to 4-5 with 28th in passing YPG and 24th in rating and 10th in int's that included a blow out loss 31-3 to a 0-7 miami team

4-5, with zero statistics is better than 1-3, with the greatest set of statistics ever compiled.

But no. Don't you dare back off of Orton now, Mr. MY Man Orton.

:lol:

chief31
12-23-2011, 10:34 PM
I am high on orton because if he can get these last 2 games or atleast play well and show some signs of life on offense he could be the guy that gets cassel OUT. Which is perfectly fine with me. So yes, I am VERY pro orton, i hope he is here in 12 and i think so does Romeo.

I truly believe that you could not care less if Orton is here in 2012, so long as Cassel is not.

Your only goal is to get rid of the guy QB who led this team to the playoffs, for the first time in four years, isn't it?

The same guy who won four games in a row with a team that was decimated with injuries?

This team is better off without that guy?

:lol: :lol:

chief31
12-23-2011, 10:37 PM
HAha getting politically correct on me i see?

Politically correct?

How's that?

It just seems to be plain old correct, from ....






....any imaginable angle.

You are trying to make a case for Cassel having better WRs by saying that he had better RB and TE.

It's like saying that bananas are better than strawberries because you really like the taste of oranges better than strawberries.

TopekaRoy
12-23-2011, 10:46 PM
Politically correct?
Hey! NO POLITICS in this thread!

:lol: Just kidding.


It's like saying that bananas are better than strawberries because you really like the taste of oranges better than strawberries.
I do. How did you know? :D

TopekaRoy
12-23-2011, 10:51 PM
Roy has come in here and tried to ease tension. I think he has done this
Not really. I just can't resist being a smart a$$!

Chiefster
12-24-2011, 01:08 AM
Not really. I just can't resist being a smart a$$!

You have done well my young padawan! :D