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figcrostic
12-24-2011, 08:02 PM
Our team just played worse and the Raiders played better.

Matt cassel #'s in 28-0 win over raiders: 161 yards, 0 tds, 2 inceptions, 0 sacks

Kyle Orton's #'s in overtime loss to raiders: 300 yards, 1 td, 2 interception, 0 sacks.

Kyle Orton played better in his second game then Matt did in his third season with the Chiefs. As you can see Kyle Orton maybe better but he is just a bandage we need a lot of help our O-line got destroyed, we got beat by their speedy WR, and two FG's blocked WTF!!!!!!

Oh and Merry Christmas!!!!

:chiefs:

#58ChiefsFan
12-24-2011, 08:13 PM
I miss Berry.

We give up the huge play and can't make one. Do we even have a play of 50+ yards? I can't remember one. In the Cassel/Orton debate need to remember there was a coaching change.

chief31
12-24-2011, 08:13 PM
Our team just played worse and the Raiders played better.

Matt cassel #'s in 28-0 win over raiders: 161 yards, 0 tds, 2 inceptions, 0 sacks

Kyle Orton's #'s in overtime loss to raiders: 300 yards, 1 td, 2 interception, 0 sacks.

Kyle Orton played better in his second game then Matt did in his third season with the Chiefs. As you can see Kyle Orton maybe better but he is just a bandage we need a lot of help our O-line got destroyed, we got beat by their speedy WR, and two FG's blocked WTF!!!!!!

Oh and Merry Christmas!!!!

:chiefs:

A win trumps stats.

Albeit, Cassel played poorly in that game. But winning with bad stats is better than losing, with great stats.

I still like Kye Orton.

But this "he's better because he passed for more yards" mentality is ridiculous.

He did still throw two INTs in scoring range, and we lost in OT.

I like how Orton moves the ball. It is a big plus from how Cassel had been doing.

But there are some advantages that Orton had, with the rest of the offense having been playing together all season, and Haley's hand out of the offense.

The best that The Chiefs can do for our 2012 QB situation would be to bring Orton back, and see if he is capable of winning a QB competition against Matt Cassel.

okikcfan
12-24-2011, 08:48 PM
I want to see what happens next week. This could very well change everything as far as Orton, Cassel AND Crennel. Hunt and Pioli can not be happy after the show we gave last week.

OxDeadface
12-24-2011, 08:52 PM
But there are some advantages that Orton had, with the rest of the offense having been playing together all season, and Haley's hand out of the offense.

The best that The Chiefs can do for our 2012 QB situation would be to bring Orton back, and see if he is capable of winning a QB competition against Matt Cassel.

I'd like to see that. I may be in the minority, but I'm not ready to give up on Cassel just yet. I'd really like to see what he can do when he's not racing the play clock every down just to get the play from the sidelines. I think judging his numbers against Orton's, or any other QB, is kind of pointless until they're working under the same people.

figcrostic
12-24-2011, 08:57 PM
A win trumps stats.

Albeit, Cassel played poorly in that game. But winning with bad stats is better than losing, with great stats.

I still like Kye Orton.

But this "he's better because he passed for more yards" mentality is ridiculous.

He did still throw two INTs in scoring range, and we lost in OT.

I like how Orton moves the ball. It is a big plus from how Cassel had been doing.

But there are some advantages that Orton had, with the rest of the offense having been playing together all season, and Haley's hand out of the offense.

The best that The Chiefs can do for our 2012 QB situation would be to bring Orton back, and see if he is capable of winning a QB competition against Matt Cassel.

Cassel didn't win the game and you know it quit trying to be a contrarian like you always do. Face the facts sir Kendrick Lewis and Brandon Flowers both had pick sixes, we had 6 interceptions that game 3 from Boller and 3 from Palmer, Javier Arenas rerturned a kick off for a td as well, Cassel had one decent drive at the end of the game that didn't mean anything beacause we were up by 3 td's and Mcclain ran it in. Heres the play by play:Kansas City Chiefs vs. Oakland Raiders - Play By Play - October 23, 2011 - ESPN (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=311023013) . I don't understand why you argue about something you know is BS.

TopekaRoy
12-24-2011, 09:05 PM
I'd like to see that. I may be in the minority, but I'm not ready to give up on Cassel just yet. I'd really like to see what he can do when he's not racing the play clock every down just to get the play from the sidelines. I think judging his numbers against Orton's, or any other QB, is kind of pointless until they're working under the same people.
I would love to see Cassel and Orton compete for the starting job next year, but I don't see any way that we keep them both. I wonder, though if there is a way we could keep both of them until after the 3rd preseason game and then trade the lesser player. That would mean signing Orton as a free agent and losing the compensatory draft pick knowing that we might be trading him right away and hoping we can get something of value in return for a player who couldn't beat out Cassel for the starting job. Maybe he would agree to sign a one year deal with the understanding that if he won the job over Cassel, we would immediately renegotiate his contract for a 4 or 5 year deal.

It's really tricky I know. You don't want to keep the wrong guy, but you can't keep both of them long term.

:(

ctchiefsfan
12-24-2011, 09:08 PM
Facts gentlemen......

Neither Cassel nor Orton is a great QB.

Edge to Cassel as a "manager".

Edge to Orton as a passer.

Neither one of them is much better than a warm bucket of spit.

Chiefster
12-24-2011, 09:08 PM
I would love to see Cassel and Orton compete for the starting job next year, but I don't see any way that we keep them both. I wonder, though if there is a way we could keep both of them until after the 3rd preseason game and then trade the lesser player. That would mean signing Orton as a free agent and losing the compensatory draft pick knowing that we might be trading him right away and hoping we can get something of value in return for a player who couldn't beat out Cassel for the starting job. Maybe he would agree to sign a one year deal with the understanding that if he won the job over Cassel, we would immediately renegotiate his contract for a 4 or 5 year deal.

It's really tricky I know. You don't want to keep the wrong guy, but you can't keep both of them long term.

:(

...This!

Rep!

figcrostic
12-24-2011, 09:13 PM
Facts gentlemen......

Neither Cassel nor Orton is a great QB.

Edge to Cassel as a "manager".

Edge to Orton as a passer.

Neither one of them is much better than a warm bucket of spit.

They aren't that bad. If Tom Brady is a 99, I'd rate Orton as a 76 and Cassel as a 70 which is still a passing score but neither of them are going to make an okay team a great team.

fairladyZ
12-24-2011, 09:15 PM
i remember when everyone was *****ing about cassel and said croyle would beat him out in camp.. Then video was released of cassel destroying croyle in camp. Then people said cassel could never march this team down the field and put the team on his shoulders to win it... Then he did it in multiple games last season and took this team to a division title and playoffs.

Now after the horrendous first part of the season and haley obviously having his fingers in the playcalling and offense of this team he goes down and they make a change at coach and everything runs smoother and people still want to ***** about how cassel sucks. I would still take cassel ANY DAY of the week under center than orton. I will bet anyone here if orton does comeback cassel beats him out without a problem for the starting spot. I still have games recorded from last season and watch them all the time of cassel picking defenses apart and throwing the team on his shoulders. Guess i'm just not one of the fairweather fans.

Also funny when people are in love with bowe after he turned it on last year than he drops a TD today and everyone is on his case again that he's not a #1 receiver. Funny how people forget what these players do for them and for this team. kind of sad really

Hayvern
12-24-2011, 09:23 PM
i remember when everyone was *****ing about cassel and said croyle would beat him out in camp.. Then video was released of cassel destroying croyle in camp. Then people said cassel could never march this team down the field and put the team on his shoulders to win it... Then he did it in multiple games last season and took this team to a division title and playoffs.

Now after the horrendous first part of the season and haley obviously having his fingers in the playcalling and offense of this team he goes down and they make a change at coach and everything runs smoother and people still want to ***** about how cassel sucks. I would still take cassel ANY DAY of the week under center than orton. I will bet anyone here if orton does comeback cassel beats him out without a problem for the starting spot. I still have games recorded from last season and watch them all the time of cassel picking defenses apart and throwing the team on his shoulders. Guess i'm just not one of the fairweather fans.

Also funny when people are in love with bowe after he turned it on last year than he drops a TD today and everyone is on his case again that he's not a #1 receiver. Funny how people forget what these players do for them and for this team. kind of sad really

The problem with generalizations, like the one you are making is that not EVERYONE matches, even though you say they do.

Bowe has been lead turd on the **** parade for a while now, Cassel made second string of that parade this year as well. Haley has been on the list for ever since he was hired.

okikcfan
12-24-2011, 09:46 PM
i remember when everyone was *****ing about cassel and said croyle would beat him out in camp.. Then video was released of cassel destroying croyle in camp. Then people said cassel could never march this team down the field and put the team on his shoulders to win it... Then he did it in multiple games last season and took this team to a division title and playoffs.

Now after the horrendous first part of the season and haley obviously having his fingers in the playcalling and offense of this team he goes down and they make a change at coach and everything runs smoother and people still want to ***** about how cassel sucks. I would still take cassel ANY DAY of the week under center than orton. I will bet anyone here if orton does comeback cassel beats him out without a problem for the starting spot. I still have games recorded from last season and watch them all the time of cassel picking defenses apart and throwing the team on his shoulders. Guess i'm just not one of the fairweather fans.

Also funny when people are in love with bowe after he turned it on last year than he drops a TD today and everyone is on his case again that he's not a #1 receiver. Funny how people forget what these players do for them and for this team. kind of sad really

Well, are we a tad bit upset my Fair weathered Friend? I have never been a BIG Fan of Cassel and will admit it. Plays Great one game and plays like S**T the next. Cassel can be good but in the long run I (myself) do not feel he can take us all the way to the Superbowl. I'm not 100% sold on Orton either. But we ALL want someone who CAN do that someday. We all have hopes and dreams that that one guy who steps in will lead up to the promised land. EVERYBODY makes mistakes, drops a ball here and there and gets burned in the back field. Yes, some of us are pissed and start pointing fingers because that's our freaking right. Tebow and Rivers BOTH got spanked and it was in the palm of our hands and we blew it. GAME OVER HONEY! Next week means nothing. So with that said I really don't give a rats A** who out QB is next year as long as they do a much better job than what was done this year. Have a safe and Very Merry Christmas and as I have said for the last what, 42 years, maybe next year.

chief31
12-24-2011, 09:47 PM
Cassel didn't win the game and you know it quit trying to be a contrarian like you always do. Face the facts sir Kendrick Lewis and Brandon Flowers both had pick sixes, we had 6 interceptions that game 3 from Boller and 3 from Palmer, Javier Arenas rerturned a kick off for a td as well, Cassel had one decent drive at the end of the game that didn't mean anything beacause we were up by 3 td's and Mcclain ran it in. Heres the play by play:Kansas City Chiefs vs. Oakland Raiders - Play By Play - October 23, 2011 - ESPN (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=311023013) . I don't understand why you argue about something you know is BS.

Matt Cassel won against The Raiders this season, in Oakland.

That is not an opinion, which needs you to offer up some spin.

It's a fact. Period.

The stats are irrelevant.

Matt Cassel won.

Again..... You are accusing me of trying to argue, when there is nothing to argue.

It is facts, not opinion.

If you want to live in a world where the facts are arguable, have fun.

But the rest of live in reality, and facts are undeniable.

But what is truly amazing is how you try to deny the outright fact, and insist that I "Face the facts"?!?!?!?

Click your own link.

The fact is that Matt Cassel beat The Raiders.

Your personal opinion of the statistics can not change it, no matter how upset you get about it.

figcrostic
12-24-2011, 09:47 PM
I would love to see Cassel and Orton compete for the starting job next year, but I don't see any way that we keep them both. I wonder, though if there is a way we could keep both of them until after the 3rd preseason game and then trade the lesser player. That would mean signing Orton as a free agent and losing the compensatory draft pick knowing that we might be trading him right away and hoping we can get something of value in return for a player who couldn't beat out Cassel for the starting job. Maybe he would agree to sign a one year deal with the understanding that if he won the job over Cassel, we would immediately renegotiate his contract for a 4 or 5 year deal.

It's really tricky I know. You don't want to keep the wrong guy, but you can't keep both of them long term.

:(

Not gonna happen, there are actually quite a few teams that would love to have Orton as their starter and since Barkley is staying for another year it makes him even more valuable. If we want to sign Orton then we should do it, I personally think he is better then Matt Cassel. Given the situation of many teams we should trade Matt Cassel I'm guessing we'd get around a 2nd round pick for him. If we can get a high caliber qb with our first round pick then great if not we should pick up a monster offensive lineman or nose tackle.

chief addict
12-24-2011, 09:56 PM
You guys are crazy if you think Cassel is better than Orton. Cassel hasn't got any passing game going all season long and Orton just waltzes in here and puts in impressive numbers. Cassel is a better game manager? Yeah he can manage handing the ball off to Jamal Charles 30 times a game.

figcrostic
12-24-2011, 09:57 PM
Matt Cassel threw 2 interceptions and only 160 yards against The Raiders this season, in Oakland.

That is not an opinion, which needs you to offer up some spin.

It's a fact. Period.

The stats are irrelevant.

The Chiefs won despite Matt Cassel.

Again..... You are accusing me of trying to argue, when there is nothing to argue.

It is facts, not opinion.

If you want to live in a world where the facts are arguable, have fun.

But the rest of live in reality, and facts are undeniable.

But what is truly amazing is how you try to deny the outright fact, and insist that I "Face the facts"?!?!?!?

Click your own link.

The fact is that Matt Cassel did nothing and the CHIEFS defense still beat The Raiders.

Your personal opinion of the statistics can not change it, no matter how upset you get about it.

Fixed

Not upset at all I just realize I'm arguing with a troll. :troll31:

Chiefster
12-24-2011, 09:59 PM
:lol: I love this thread.

I don't know if Orton is better than Cassel, however, I don't believe him to be worse either which is why I would like to see him compete for the starting job.

chief31
12-24-2011, 10:10 PM
Fixed

Not upset at all I just realize I'm arguing with a troll. :troll31:
You were arguing with fact.

It's a guaranteed loss when you choose that.

But you can still keep it respectful.

okikcfan
12-24-2011, 10:12 PM
Not defending Orton but in two games he put up 299 and 300 yards. Cassels best out of 9 games was 261 I believe. Please forgive me FairladyZZZZZZ, I have spoken against thou Cassel. I should be punished ; }

Chiefster
12-24-2011, 10:13 PM
Fixed

Not upset at all I just realize I'm arguing with a troll. :troll31:

I see nothing trollish in anything chief31 has said.

figcrostic
12-24-2011, 10:25 PM
I see nothing trollish in anything chief31 has said.

Saying that Cassel won the game vs the raiders is a troll statement. Did the Chiefs beat the Raiders? Yes. Did Cassel play in that game? Yes. If Tyler Palko would have played in that game would the Chiefs have won? Very likely considering our defense held them to 0 points and our defense scored 2 td's, had 6 interceptions, and our special teams also scored a td. Cassel threw 160 yards and 2 interceptions that's hardly winning a game.

Chiefster
12-24-2011, 10:33 PM
Saying that Cassel won the game vs the raiders is a troll statement. Did the Chiefs beat the Raiders? Yes. Did Cassel play in that game? Yes. If Tyler Palko would have played in that game would the Chiefs have won? Very likely considering our defense held them to 0 points and our defense scored 2 td's, had 6 interceptions, and our special teams also scored a td. Cassel threw 160 yards and 2 interceptions that's hardly winning a game.

On this you and I will have to agree to disagree.

For me there is, also, a good amount of merit in your point of view. The difference, as I see it, is that no one (chief31 included) is calling you a troll for expressing it. chief31 has expressed a point of view that he is entitled to; you don't have to like it or agree with it, but it is not trolling to simply have a difference of opinion.

chief31
12-24-2011, 11:12 PM
thank you for being honest. Yes those 2 throws hurt us but you can always say "but it hit bowe in the hands and he should of caught it in the previous play." But no excuses, he threw that interception which was huge inside our 20.

I really think Orton if he actually had time in our offense could be a very productive qb. I like your comment, I still think orton suits us better.

Thanks.

I agree with all but the final assesment.

Seeing as how I am unsure of what kind of offense we will be running in 2012, it is pretty tough to say that either is better suited for it. But, if we are running a run-first/depend on defense kind of offense, I am sticking with Matt Cassel. And if we are running an air-it-out/spread type of offense, then I am undecided.

I have seen both work with the prior style, and Cassel has been far better at it.

And I have seen both run the latter, with Orton having shown more, in my opinion, but with far less W/L success. (Cassel - Patriots)

Overall, I lean toward Matt Cassel. But I am probably the biggest real Orton fan on this site.

I think everybody else who is heavily in Orton's corner right now are not doing it because they really think that Orton is a good QB, but that he is not Matt Cassel.

And Matt Cassel is getting a bad rap from fans, for the exact same reason that Orton got a bad rap from Bears fans.

Each was asked to lead a running offense, and each did well at that.

But neither put up pretty numbers, to please the fans, as that is not what a QB does with that style of offense does. Basically, the job of that offense's QB is to run plays that favor the running attack.

If we do decide to go with a spread-style offense, and Orton is the guy we choose, I expect he will do the job very well, and will even have plenty of success in the redzone.

But, until we know what we are doing on defense, and with the QBs we have at our disposal, nothing is going to change on my end.

chief31
12-24-2011, 11:20 PM
I remember that Raider game at oakland, we need to ask ourselves what did cassel contribute in that win against KYLE BOLLER?

The simple answer, nothing much. Not nearly as much as orton did this past game

A qb that comes in throws for 300 yards and puts his team in position to win the game is a hell of an achievement for someone who has been working with our offense for 2 weeks

What did Matt Cassel do in that game?

Enough to win 28-0.

As I said above, he didn't play well. But, which QB(s) lost that game?

It was not Matt Cassel. Matt Cassel won the game, by not playing as poorly as the opponents' QBs.

As for beating good teams/defenses, look at what has happened in the majority of opportunities he has had.

Just like today, Matt Cassel has been plagued by suspect play-calling, huge dropped passes, and poor pass-protection.

The offense has been growing since 2009.

And, in 2010, they grew enough to beat lesser teams pretty consistently.

This season, the growth was stunted by the loss of the player that this offense was designed around, in JC.

And so, there were some major problems with how the offense functioned.

chief31
12-24-2011, 11:28 PM
Well i think some of the bad rap from our fans is because pioli has paid him the money to be our franchise guy for a long time. And when you do that you expect good results, we havn't gotten that from cassel this year. The results have actually been bad. Orton was never thrown a ton of money and told "you are our franchise guy" Cassel was.

I also think if succop doesnt have 2 kicks blocked BY THE SAME GUY, lol I have never heard of that by the way, it was by the same guy, but if he makes that kick this conversation wouldn't happen. Most of us would be excited over orton being our qb with a chance to win the division. But we could say if we did this or if we did that we could probably extend this thread 30 pages atleast.

Well, I will still take a denver loss and oakland win next week, I can somewhat handle the raiders going to the playoffs, just not denver

Cassel was doing great when the offense was complete.

The problem was the design. It was designed, based on a great rushing attack. Complete with passing plays that are designed to open rushing lanes, as opposed to having an offense designed to get yardage through the passing game.

Now, with Todd Haley gone, and the season having been considered over, all bets are off, and we are tinkering with a whole different philosophy on offense.

We ran the ball fewer times than we passed today. And in a game that was within a TD from start, to finish.

If we were still committed to the run-first offense, then we would not have passed the ball so frequently.

A QB is going to get more yards, if his number is being called more often, and with plays designed for a passing offense.

chief31
12-24-2011, 11:34 PM
But it really wasn't cassel that won the game or even contributed. We played against Kyle boller, Kyle boller! . Boller and palmer combined for 6 interceptions that game, you or i could of put on the jersey and played qb that game and we still would of won easy.

Matt Cassel did win that game. It is a fact.

Had you, or I been playing QB that day, The Chiefs would have gotten destroyed.

Odds are, The Raiders would play extremely conservative, and just won by yours, or my inept play. Just like The Chiefs wound up doing to them.

But Neither of us was playing that day. So, instead of getting destroyed, The Chiefs, with Matt Cassel at QB stomped The Raiders.

Did he play poorly that day? Yes. But he still won.

It's fact that you can not change, under any circumstances currently known to man.

OMGLadyGaga
12-24-2011, 11:39 PM
The Cassel defending is getting a bit ridiculous. Hopefully we can get rid of that guy and even though I'm not saying Orton is the quarterback of the future, hopefully he has made everyone realize what a real qb looks like and the Cassel project can be brought to an end.

FWIW I like Cassel, I've always been a supporter and to be honest if we keep him I will keep supporting him but only because he is a Chief and if he does well that that means we do well. But lets face it, I don't like our chances with him.Hopefully if he gets another chance he can prove me wrong.

figcrostic
12-24-2011, 11:41 PM
Thanks.

I agree with all but the final assesment.

Seeing as how I am unsure of what kind of offense we will be running in 2012, it is pretty tough to say that either is better suited for it. But, if we are running a run-first/depend on defense kind of offense, I am sticking with Matt Cassel. And if we are running an air-it-out/spread type of offense, then I am undecided.

I have seen both work with the prior style, and Cassel has been far better at it.

And I have seen both run the latter, with Orton having shown more, in my opinion, but with far less W/L success. (Cassel - Patriots)

Overall, I lean toward Matt Cassel. But I am probably the biggest real Orton fan on this site.

I think everybody else who is heavily in Orton's corner right now are not doing it because they really think that Orton is a good QB, but that he is not Matt Cassel.

And Matt Cassel is getting a bad rap from fans, for the exact same reason that Orton got a bad rap from Bears fans.

Each was asked to lead a running offense, and each did well at that.

But neither put up pretty numbers, to please the fans, as that is not what a QB does with that style of offense does. Basically, the job of that offense's QB is to run plays that favor the running attack.

If we do decide to go with a spread-style offense, and Orton is the guy we choose, I expect he will do the job very well, and will even have plenty of success in the redzone.

But, until we know what we are doing on defense, and with the QBs we have at our disposal, nothing is going to change on my end.

WOW!! You are one delusional little boy!

chief31
12-24-2011, 11:49 PM
And, for the record, Matt Cassel led the offense down the field for two rushing TDs in that game against The Raiders. And one of the two INTs was a half-ending hail mary attempt with :03 left, and the ball at our own 45 yard line.

He played poorly. But he not as bad as it is made out.

chief31
12-25-2011, 12:15 AM
Chief this is the problem I have with cassel. Let's compare 2010 and 2011, with or without charles it isnt really that different, his play against .500 teams or better.

Last year against .500 teams or better his rating in 2010 was 64. 64!

His rating against teams with less than .500 rating is 99.4!!!!


Now let's look at this season which has been a tougher schedule.

Teams with .500 or below record this year, his rating is 95!!! Similar to last year

Teams with .500 or better his rating is 49.

Do you see my problem and why i think he is a mediocre qb at best? His playing numbers the past 2 seasons are identical when you break them down. I mean his stats against better teams arent a tad lower or a little bit lower it is a HUGE drop off. 64 last year and 49 this year? Both atrocious numbers

2010 Chiefs, Yards per rushing attempt.... 4.7
2011 Chiefs, Yards per rushing attempt.... 3.9

If your offense is based on the running game, then t a full yard per attempt is a drastic turn to the offense.

Without Charles is an enormous difference.

But, as for beating the better teams.....

I already mentioned that you take it one step at a time. You start out by learning to win against most teams, then you improve to be able to beat the really good teams.

This season, that learning curve was decimated by having a running offense without a successful running game.

The whole offense got thrown into a tailspin.

And the plays that are designed to open up running lanes just aren't all that effective for use in a passing offense.

Look, you are not going to change your mind. You are far too happy blaming Matt Cassel for everything.

He**, if I even type too many words into a reply, you won't even read it.:lol:

But, if you don't get how an offense that is designed for the running game is counter-productive to a QBs statistics, then we really can't make any progress in meeting up in the middle anywhere.

There are countless Cassel-haters on this site. And none will ever come off of that, short of Matt Cassel putting up big numbers.

And they will make countless excuses for why Kyle Orton lost to The Raiders, and even more excuses as to why Matt Cassel beat them.

nigeriannightmare
12-25-2011, 12:52 AM
WOW!! You are one delusional little boy!

Do u even know what the word means.....because chief 31 and chiefster are from that, the cassel haters r delusional.

By the way everyone keeps talking money orton got paid 2.6 million to play 6 games if which he started 3 .

chief31
12-25-2011, 12:58 AM
My point is his play from 2010 when yo ubreak it down isnt that much different from 2011, he still is awful against 500 or better teams whether our average rushing numbers were 4.7 or 3.9.

64 rating in 2010

49 rating in 2011.

And I dont see why that would change in the future

No?

You can't possibly fathom how a running offense would get better results from their QB if their running game was more effective?

Really?

You don't see that?

And you also can't see how a QB might grow with an offense from season to season?

2011 set the learning curve back, because the running offense was no longer capable of running the ball effectively.

And, should we change to a pass-first offense, you don't think that a QB who played well in his only season as a pass-first QB might be able to do well again in that role?

Let me see where you stand.......

When we traded for Matt Cassel, how did you feel about it?

GarH
12-25-2011, 01:42 AM
I agree that what most Chiefs fans like about Orton is he is not Cassel. I just don't see Orton as any better than Cassel.

josh1971
12-25-2011, 01:59 AM
I miss Berry.

We give up the huge play and can't make one. Do we even have a play of 50+ yards? I can't remember one. In the Cassel/Orton debate need to remember there was a coaching change.

Bowe's longest TD catch of the season is 52 yds.

ctchiefsfan
12-25-2011, 02:20 AM
I felt like when the game was put on orton's shoulders he shined, he did exactly what he was supposed to.

What kind of drugs are you smoking? 13 points is a FAIL by the offense. And a fail by the offense is a fail by the QB.

But....BTW....Thanks for getting rid of your signature line.

ctchiefsfan
12-25-2011, 02:28 AM
I just don't see Orton as any better than Cassel.

And that right there is the problem. You're exactly right.

kcchiefsfan18
12-25-2011, 02:31 AM
I just don't see Orton as any better than Cassel.

Couldn't agree more.

fairladyZ
12-25-2011, 02:37 AM
all i know is matt cassel has done well by me. Does he have his flaws? of course. He does get happy feet and sometimes he does hold onto the ball to long.
His advantages over orton lets list then
Younger, Bigger, Stronger, more mobile, faster, better accuracy, stronger arm, WAY better deep ball, more emotion, better leader, more respect in the locker room, better footwork, more chemistry with the team, can adapt better and faster, better thrower on the run. You don't have to agree with me i just think it's funny and kind of sad when people continue to talk trash on him after last year when he did what everyone said he couldn't
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TopekaRoy
12-25-2011, 04:16 AM
all i know is matt cassel has done well by me. Does he have his flaws? of course. He does get happy feet and sometimes he does hold onto the ball to long.
His advantages over orton lets list then
Younger, Bigger, Stronger, more mobile, faster, better accuracy, stronger arm, WAY better deep ball, more emotion, better leader, more respect in the locker room, better footwork, more chemistry with the team, can adapt better and faster, better thrower on the run. You don't have to agree with me i just think it's funny and kind of sad when people continue to talk trash on him after last year when he did what everyone said he couldn't
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Actually Cassel (born may 17, 1982) is 6 months older than Orton (born November 14, 1982) so you might want to replace "younger" with "more mature" LOL. And they are both 6' 4" tall, but Cassel is 5 pounds heavier, so you could technically say "bigger" or "fatter." Maybe that extra 5 pounds is solid muscle? Do you know what each player bench presses?

I won't argue with the rest of you list because those are all subjective opinions. I think Orton is a more accurate thrower, and as far as better footwork goes, I would give the edge to Kyle as well because he doesn't get "happy feet" under pressure in the pocket like Cassel does and you already admitted that Orton makes quicker decisions and gets rid of the ball faster so I wouldn't give Cassel as big of an edge as you would, but Like I said, there is a lot of subjectivity in it.

To me the bottom line is this year Orton has done a better job of moving the ball than Cassel has. Now how much of that can be attributed to the coaching change, different/better play calling. or improved play from the offensive line, and how much is due directly to the change in QB is impossible to say.

What I can say is that 2 games is way too small a sample size to make a decision on Orton, but he has looked pretty good so far.

kcchiefsfan1983
12-25-2011, 04:36 AM
Matt Cassel won against The Raiders this season, in Oakland.

That is not an opinion, which needs you to offer up some spin.

It's a fact. Period.

The stats are irrelevant.

Matt Cassel won.

Again..... You are accusing me of trying to argue, when there is nothing to argue.

It is facts, not opinion.

If you want to live in a world where the facts are arguable, have fun.

But the rest of live in reality, and facts are undeniable.

But what is truly amazing is how you try to deny the outright fact, and insist that I "Face the facts"?!?!?!?

Click your own link.

The fact is that Matt Cassel beat The Raiders.

Your personal opinion of the statistics can not change it, no matter how upset you get about it.

Your logic is COMPLETELY laughable, insulting...I could go on and on. We get it. You are in love with Cassel...a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE quarterback.

First off....Orton put us in a position to win the game...so saying that Cassel won and Orton didn't....you are so far off.

We just needed to make one of (2) blocked field goals. We had many opportunities. Bowe missed a pass in the end zone that was right in his bread basket. I could go on and on.

But I will make this simple. If Chiefs go with Cassel next year, I will not even watch that #%$%. Because he is so boring...I would rather watch paint dry. He flat out sucks.

If it is Orton or ANYBODy BUT CASSEL....then I will watch. Otherwise I will just cheer on my fantasy players. But, CASSEL HAS TO GO. HE HAS TO GO...LISTEn closely...for the franchise sake...CASSEL MUST NOT TAKE ANOtheR SNAP IN KC.

jap1
12-25-2011, 06:46 AM
First off....Orton put us in a position to win the game...so saying that Cassel won and Orton didn't....you are so far off.


You also have to take into account that if it were not for his earlier mistakes, he may not have needed the last minute drives.

If not for the two picks we MAY have had two more FGs (or maybe 2 more blocked FGs). Whether or not someone drops a pass on the prior play doesn't give you the excuse to throw it straight into the db's hands, or throw it behind a WR and right into the defender's hands. Or if he dives head first when running for the first down on 3rd down, it might have changed the outcome.

Point is, a lot of mistakes were made by many players, Orton included. He had a good game and kept us in it despite his mistakes.

Eydugstr
12-25-2011, 09:52 AM
Our team just played worse and the Raiders played better.

As you can see Kyle Orton maybe better but he is just a bandage we need a lot of help our O-line got destroyed, we got beat by their speedy WR, and two FG's blocked WTF!!!!!!

+1. This game sucked on many levels. The refs got flag happy, and we started acting just as bad as the raiders. But the raiders won, made the plays they needed to. If we hadn't gotten caught up in the Raiders' penalty BS, it would have been a different story. But we did.

Orton and Bowe kept us in it, but we shouldn't have been in that position. As far as Orton being better than Cassel, I am still torn. Numbers-wise Orton is the winner, but Orton didn't have the handicap of working under Haley; Cassel did and they argued constantly.

I say this off-season, fix the O-line, give something decent for Orton, Cassel and Stanzi to compete behind. It will also help our running backs, too.

:chiefs:

azchiefsfan
12-25-2011, 10:43 AM
A win trumps stats.

Albeit, Cassel played poorly in that game. But winning with bad stats is better than losing, with great stats.

I still like Kye Orton.

But this "he's better because he passed for more yards" mentality is ridiculous.

He did still throw two INTs in scoring range, and we lost in OT.

I like how Orton moves the ball. It is a big plus from how Cassel had been doing.

But there are some advantages that Orton had, with the rest of the offense having been playing together all season, and Haley's hand out of the offense.

The best that The Chiefs can do for our 2012 QB situation would be to bring Orton back, and see if he is capable of winning a QB competition against Matt Cassel.

And play-calling is the key. Cassel has been forced to play with 1 hand tied behind his back from his first game here.

fairladyZ
12-25-2011, 01:26 PM
the proof is obvious. He takes over for brady in NE and he crushes, and marches the ball down the field and everyone knows they didn't have a running game, hell he went 11-5, the same team the next year brady only went 10-6. The first year here cassel didn't play very well, haley was calling the plays, everyone wanted to run him out of town.

Second year pioli's boy weiss comes in, now i'm sure pioli told todd that it was charlie's offense. Cassel lit it up and went to the probowl and was 1 of the best qb's in the whole league.

Thrid year, charlie up and quits for "family" reasons. Now is HC at kansas, ya i'm going to go ahead and stat the obvious that this was a rift in power between haley, weiss, and pioli and weiss just bowed out rather than deal with it. Now haley is forced to hire an OC by pioli so he chooses Muir who he can control and keep his hand in the cookie jar.. Once again the play calling is ran thru haley who has free will to change it and cassel is hand cuffed.

Has orton played bad? no not at all, i'm not happy about the picks and not getting that first down (even though i think he had it we should have challenged it) i just don't believe he is better than cassel, i think he is 1 step below cassel and really that only step below being cassel is far more mobile, faster, and i think he has better relationship with bowe, and the other players.

I guess i'm just not on the bandwagon after 2 games of thinking orton was our savior, i was SCREAMING for him to be put in as soon as he stepped foot in KC i didn't care how many plays he knew cause palko was ****ing terrible and i knew that from pre-season LAST year.

nigeriannightmare
12-25-2011, 02:54 PM
Of course blame it on the playcalling. Cassel supporters keep coming up with excuses, it is getting old

I wont blame it on playcalling ill blame it on orton not having the stones to lower his shoulder. He does that we dont give the raiders the ball with a shortfield that led to the fieldgoal that put them up a td. Theres no excuse for that u just got paid 2.5 million dor 6 games.

chief31
12-25-2011, 03:13 PM
Your logic is COMPLETELY laughable, insulting...I could go on and on. We get it. You are in love with Cassel...a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE quarterback.

How is this supposed to work?

You attempt to humiliate me with accusations of being gay, and I, out of fear for being exposed just ignore reality and jump over to your "Hate, regardless of logic" mentality?

Has that technique ever worked.... for anything?

I don't remember it working in any instance I have ever seen.


First off....Orton put us in a position to win the game...so saying that Cassel won and Orton didn't....you are so far off.

We just needed to make one of (2) blocked field goals. We had many opportunities. Bowe missed a pass in the end zone that was right in his bread basket. I could go on and on.

Agreed. 100%.

But, just know that is exactly the kind of "excuse making" that you will not tolerate for Matt Cassel.


But I will make this simple. If Chiefs go with Cassel next year, I will not even watch that #%$%. Because he is so boring...I would rather watch paint dry. He flat out sucks.

And this is where it is at.....

"Nevermind that he wins. they are boring wins,"

You just want statistics. I want to win. Even if it means winning without the "exciting" QB stats.


If it is Orton or ANYBODy BUT CASSEL....then I will watch. Otherwise I will just cheer on my fantasy players. But, CASSEL HAS TO GO. HE HAS TO GO...LISTEn closely...for the franchise sake...CASSEL MUST NOT TAKE ANOtheR SNAP IN KC.

Don't watch.

This is the QB who helped this team go from 2-14, to division winner, in just two seasons.

But you prefer to lose than win "boring"?

Perhaps you would be interested in The Chargers.

I think they are more fitting for your needs.

chief31
12-25-2011, 03:48 PM
It is late and I will answer your post with all of your points tomorrow. As far as how did i feel about cassel when we traded, I cant honestly tell you. I watched a lot of his games in New England and I have always viewed him as a very and i mean VERY conservative qb that is never going to put up a ton of yards or win games for you but tries to make smart throws. That was my impression of him in NE. That is my impression of him now. Did I think it was a bad move we traded for him? No. Did i think it was a bad idea to sign him to a lengthy contract and give him tons of money? Yes, because in my eyes he is not a franchise quarterback. And when you give a guy that much money over 6 or 7 years or whatever it was, you are making a pretty hefty investment.

So, what I hear there is that you had your mind made up about Matt Cassel after his first season, and that he was never going to put up a lot of Yards (3693, 8th most in The NFL) and who would never win games (11-5, 6th most in The NFL)?

A rookie, who finished with the 6th most wins in The NFL, could never win games for ya.

A rookie, who finished 8th in The NFL in passing yards would never be able to pass for a lot of yards?

He had finished 10th in QB Rating, 10th in TDs, 11th in Yards per passing attempt, 11th in completion precentage, And, among QBs with at least 2,000 Yards, he finished with the 9th fewest INTs.

As a first time starter, and a guy who did not get to play in college, his first ever season as a starter had him in the top eleven of every major passing statistic....

And that he could never do what he had already done?

__________________________________________________

Now, honestly, I didn't think too highly of him either. I just thought he was a guy put into an amazing position, where anybody could succeed.

But I have come to the conclusion that is ridiculous.

Even Tom Brady only went 9-7 the following season. So clearly you have to play pretty darn well to win, even with a great team.

I think that a lot of us had a less favorable opinion of him, than what he had earned, but that most refused to admit that they were wrong, even when he led a run-based offense to the heights he reached in his second year with this team.

I think that many Chiefs fans were still hating what he was doing in 2010, and that they just could not wait for some bad things to happen to him.

Pride overrides logic.

And the ugly start of 2011, and loss of the running game, were just what the doctor ordered.

chief31
12-25-2011, 04:23 PM
Leading a passing offense.....


Compl. % - Yards - TDs - INTs - QB Rating - Team W/L

2008 Matt Cassel -
53.4 - 3693 - 21 - 11 - 89.4 - 11-5
2009 Kyle Orton -
62.1 - 3802 - 21 - 12 - 86.8 - 8-8
2010 Kyle Orton -
58.8 - 3653 - 20 - 9 - 87.5 - 4-12

Leading a run-first offense .....

2009 Matt Cassel -
55 - 2924 - 16 - 16 - 69.9 - 4-12
2010 Matt Cassel -
58.2 - 3116 - 27 - 7 - 93 - 10-6

2005 Kyle Orton -
51.6 - 1869 - 9 - 13 - 59.7 - 11-5
2008 Kyle Orton -
58.5 - 2872 - 18 - 12 - 79.6 - 9-7

RED = Lowest number, per offense-type.
BLUE = Highest number, per offense-type.
GREEN = Tied for highest number, per offense-type.

ctchiefsfan
12-25-2011, 06:08 PM
Waht do you mean what am i smoking? When the game was on the line and running was not an option, it was on orton's shoulders. He made the throws and went down and tied the game. He then with 30 seconds left made HUGE throws and got us in fg range to win the game, only to have it blocked.

And he and the offense only put up 13 points. FAIL!

And he tossed the INT during OT. FAIL!

2 touchdowns in 2 games. FAIL!

As I have said before I don't know if it is on him, the O-line, the receivers, the running backs or JC being out.....but Kyle Orton proved NOTHING yesterday......except maybe that he is pretty much in the same league as Cassel. But we already knew that.

A decent QB but nothing more.

Orton was great yesterday.....for a few minutes....the rest of the time he was nothing more than competent. Just like Cassel.

Neither one of them is worth a warm bucket of spit.

Next year come the draft we are going to have to choose between trying to trade to get a hot QB prospect or improving our O-Line. With a better O-line either Orton or Cassel will look good. But neither is a game changer.

If you can drag your nose out of Orton's jock strap, you'll realize that he is pretty much the same as Cassel. The difference between them is measured in millimeters.

KCraised
12-26-2011, 05:00 PM
And he and the offense only put up 13 points. FAIL!

And he tossed the INT during OT. FAIL!

2 touchdowns in 2 games. FAIL!

As I have said before I don't know if it is on him, the O-line, the receivers, the running backs or JC being out.....but Kyle Orton proved NOTHING yesterday......except maybe that he is pretty much in the same league as Cassel. But we already knew that.

A decent QB but nothing more.

Orton was great yesterday.....for a few minutes....the rest of the time he was nothing more than competent. Just like Cassel.

Neither one of them is worth a warm bucket of spit.

Next year come the draft we are going to have to choose between trying to trade to get a hot QB prospect or improving our O-Line. With a better O-line either Orton or Cassel will look good. But neither is a game changer.

If you can drag your nose out of Orton's jock strap, you'll realize that he is pretty much the same as Cassel. The difference between them is measured in millimeters.

Ok. If both qbs were standing there healthy and you are the HC and had to start one, which would you put in and why?

chief31
12-26-2011, 07:17 PM
Ok. If both qbs were standing there healthy and you are the HC and had to start one, which would you put in and why?

For the next game, or season?

For the next game, I would want to allow Orton his chance to make his statement against The Broncos. But I would probably have to go with Cassel, to allow him a chance to respond to the success Orton has had in moving the offense in his two starts.

Next season?

I would have them battle it out in front of my own eyes during training camp and preseason before making a decision.

Should I, for some unknown reason, not have that luxury, I would have to give Matt Cassel the opportunity to show that he can do more than Orton has, and I would feel right about leaving a short leash on him.

KCraised
12-26-2011, 09:19 PM
Interesting. Actually, quite good. I think my question is just more of a hypothetical about, say, the beginning of a new season. With the team we have. I basically was addressing the comments I read saying they are both the same qb, basically. So, in hypothetics, what would be the determining factor in going with the final choice. I like how Orton throws downfield better so thats an example of why I would tap Orton's shoulder...what do you think a quality is of Cassel that Orton lacks?

okikcfan
12-26-2011, 10:26 PM
To be honest I like Orton a little better, he moves the ball downfield more so far, but as it has been stated by others, it would be hard to judge Cassel under new management. I for one feel that maybe, just maybe Cassel has been held back, I think we just need to cut the leash and let'em go. Now that Haley is gone I see him as one of the past problems. So I am kinda split. Let'em go in the offseason and may the best one win. Now word is that the Jets may cut Sanchez in the off season, Comments?

chief31
12-26-2011, 10:33 PM
Interesting. Actually, quite good. I think my question is just more of a hypothetical about, say, the beginning of a new season. With the team we have. I basically was addressing the comments I read saying they are both the same qb, basically. So, in hypothetics, what would be the determining factor in going with the final choice. I like how Orton throws downfield better so thats an example of why I would tap Orton's shoulder...what do you think a quality is of Cassel that Orton lacks?

Humility.

Not that Orton lacks it. Just that Cassel has shown more of it.

That, and the ability to win, in situations where he shouldn't.

Dealt a bad hand, Matt Cassel has made something from nothing quite a bit.

Where most Chiefs fans seem to look at 4-5 and say he sucks, I look at 4-5 and realize that this offense was "The Jamaal Charles Show" without Jamaal Charles, and going 4-5 under those circumstances is impressive.

As for, which guy I choose, right now, to start a season, I am still with Matt Cassel.

Rather I am running a run-heavy offense, of a pass-first offense, I have seen Matt Cassel both win, and put up pretty numbers.

Kyle Orton was a winner in Chicago, where they ran a run-first offense, but looked far more like a liability to the team, than a contributor. Though he did pretty well when he got his second shot at it. (2008)

That, and the rest of this team is far more familiar with Matt, having played here with him for the past two and a half seasons.

tornadospotter
12-26-2011, 11:23 PM
My problem with Matt Cassel has been his passes! Knocked down passes at the line of scrimmage, I would like to see a break down of that for comparison of the two. maybe I am wrong, and I am a lot, but Matt has not really impressed me. I just go back to what I have always said about Matt. He does not throw a receiver friendly pass, it is not always where it should be,for a WR to make it a catch. Talk all you want about this is the NFL, and the WR are paid to catch the ball, Matt has had plenty of time to make a play and to put the ball in the hands of his receivers. In a nut shell, Matt has looked scare and played that way to my thinking. So as this season is one game away from ending. I want to see if Kyle wants to be a Chief! What I liked from the GB game, was Kyle looked comfortable, and played with confidence. That is what we need.

tornadospotter
12-26-2011, 11:36 PM
Humility.

Not that Orton lacks it. Just that Cassel has shown more of it.

That, and the ability to win, in situations where he shouldn't.

Dealt a bad hand, Matt Cassel has made something from nothing quite a bit.

Where most Chiefs fans seem to look at 4-5 and say he sucks, I look at 4-5 and realize that this offense was "The Jamaal Charles Show" without Jamaal Charles, and going 4-5 under those circumstances is impressive.

As for, which guy I choose, right now, to start a season, I am still with Matt Cassel.

Rather I am running a run-heavy offense, of a pass-first offense, I have seen Matt Cassel both win, and put up pretty numbers.

Kyle Orton was a winner in Chicago, where they ran a run-first offense, but looked far more like a liability to the team, than a contributor. Though he did pretty well when he got his second shot at it. (2008)

That, and the rest of this team is far more familiar with Matt, having played here with him for the past two and a half seasons.
I guess Chief31, that you and I see Matt Cassel differently. That is good, we need different perspectives on issues, and players. The neat thing about it all is, we can agree to be of different opinions, but always agree to being fans of the Chief's!

2010chiefs
12-27-2011, 02:21 AM
When Cassel was QB we blamed the o-line for his awful performance. We blamed injuries for all the losses.

Orton comes in and does what we thought was not possible because of the o-line and throws two 300 yard games. We beat the packers despite all of the injuries.

Now imagine Orton with all of our weapons. Charles, Moeaki, and Berry. A dynamic passing game to compliment our rushing attack. I'll take ORTON!

Ryfo18
12-27-2011, 02:31 AM
If Cassel can't become better in the pocket and with his reads, he'll never take his game to the next level. Cassel's poor pocket awareness causes several things:

1.) He tucks and tries to run the instant he feels pressure.
2.) People think our O-line sucks because of this, when in reality they don't.
3.) Sacks, because when you combine the inability to quickly progress through reads with an inability to move around in the pocket, coverage sacks arise.

Regarding point 3, I've seen several Cassel games where it would "appear" that no wide receivers are getting open. I have rarely seen this issue with Orton in at quarterback.

Orton has played 2 games and not been sacked once. All things else (arm strength, accuracy, scrambling, etc.), Cassel and Orton are pretty much equal in my opinion.

When I watch the two of them play, it definitely sticks out that Orton is much better in the pocket, and as a result is also why I think he's better at progressing through his reads.

Cassel needs to get better in these areas if he's going to take his game to the next level.

KCraised
12-27-2011, 05:03 AM
I guess Chief31, that you and I see Matt Cassel differently. That is good, we need different perspectives on issues, and players. The neat thing about it all is, we can agree to be of different opinions, but always agree to being fans of the Chief's!

Post of the day.....no matter what, always a Chiefs fan.

This is pretty productive, from a fan point of view. Jist round table the pros and cons and talk about it civilly. Good thread:)

KCraised
12-27-2011, 05:07 AM
If Cassel can't become better in the pocket and with his reads, he'll never take his game to the next level. Cassel's poor pocket awareness causes several things:

1.) He tucks and tries to run the instant he feels pressure.
2.) People think our O-line sucks because of this, when in reality they don't.
3.) Sacks, because when you combine the inability to quickly progress through reads with an inability to move around in the pocket, coverage sacks arise.

Regarding point 3, I've seen several Cassel games where it would "appear" that no wide receivers are getting open. I have rarely seen this issue with Orton in at quarterback.

Orton has played 2 games and not been sacked once. All things else (arm strength, accuracy, scrambling, etc.), Cassel and Orton are pretty much equal in my opinion.

When I watch the two of them play, it definitely sticks out that Orton is much better in the pocket, and as a result is also why I think he's better at progressing through his reads.

Cassel needs to get better in these areas if he's going to take his game to the next level.

Yet another productive post. Keep it up, guys!

chief31
12-27-2011, 10:29 AM
When Cassel was QB we blamed the o-line for his awful performance. We blamed injuries for all the losses.

Orton comes in and does what we thought was not possible because of the o-line and throws two 300 yard games. We beat the packers despite all of the injuries.

Now imagine Orton with all of our weapons. Charles, Moeaki, and Berry. A dynamic passing game to compliment our rushing attack. I'll take ORTON!

WHo thought that 300 yards passing was not possible?

And the thing that made beating The Packers seem impossible was that it looked impossible to slow down that offense.

Orton helped in doing that, by moving the ball. But it was the other side of the ball that did the "impossible".

Orton has done exactly what I would expect him to do.

With a coaching change made, and more coaching positions in jeopardy, our OC is trying to prove that he can make something happen with the offense.

It's desparation, air-it-out time, and Orton is the statistical benficiary.

And, as with any O-line group, if you shuffle the personnel to start the season, it will be the second half of the season before you start seeing the unit come together and start playing to their potential, as a group.

And yet, there is this insane exaggeration as if Orton has put up 70 points in his two games, but the reailty is that we have not reached 20 in either.

Here's is what I see....

Those who hated Matt Cassel when he was 10-6, with 27 TDs/7INTs are now just desparate to get rid of him before he gets the chance to make them look foolish again.

"HURRY! HURRY! HURRY! And get him out, so I will not be humiliated by more Chiefs success with him at QB."

I watched as so many people became non-existent on these boards, because Cassel was winning, and looking good, proving them wrong.

But, with every loss, those people would return for the week to scream and shout about how terrible Matt Cassel is.

Every single opportunity to show that they were right about it, they are as loud as any member ever gets here.

Lighting up the board with their desparate cries to get him out before he could do it to them again.

And then, when he went on a four game winning streak....

Silence.

I know that this is not everybody. So no need to make your case to me. If you do not fit the description of poasting like mad when he is not doing well, and dissolving when he does, then you were not the target of that message.

KCraised
12-27-2011, 02:09 PM
WHo thought that 300 yards passing was not possible?

And the thing that made beating The Packers seem impossible was that it looked impossible to slow down that offense.

Orton helped in doing that, by moving the ball. But it was the other side of the ball that did the "impossible".

Orton has done exactly what I would expect him to do.

With a coaching change made, and more coaching positions in jeopardy, our OC is trying to prove that he can make something happen with the offense.

It's desparation, air-it-out time, and Orton is the statistical benficiary.

And, as with any O-line group, if you shuffle the personnel to start the season, it will be the second half of the season before you start seeing the unit come together and start playing to their potential, as a group.

And yet, there is this insane exaggeration as if Orton has put up 70 points in his two games, but the reailty is that we have not reached 20 in either.

Here's is what I see....

Those who hated Matt Cassel when he was 10-6, with 27 TDs/7INTs are now just desparate to get rid of him before he gets the chance to make them look foolish again.

"HURRY! HURRY! HURRY! And get him out, so I will not be humiliated by more Chiefs success with him at QB."

I watched as so many people became non-existent on these boards, because Cassel was winning, and looking good, proving them wrong.

But, with every loss, those people would return for the week to scream and shout about how terrible Matt Cassel is.

Every single opportunity to show that they were right about it, they are as loud as any member ever gets here.

Lighting up the board with their desparate cries to get him out before he could do it to them again.

And then, when he went on a four game winning streak....

Silence.

I know that this is not everybody. So no need to make your case to me. If you do not fit the description of poasting like mad when he is not doing well, and dissolving when he does, then you were not the target of that message.
Came on here to see some more pros and cons on both qbs and here comes the Cassel hater bashing. Dude, you seriously need to take your blinders off and quit being so sensitive about your boy Cassel. Cassel is not the 2nd coming Of Joe Montana. He is 17-21 as a starter for the Chiefs. Find all the statistics to support your theory that he would be 38-0 IF (fill in blank) but he is a decent qb, thats it. If he was in instead of Palko in the Steelers game, we win. The guy has some skills but not worthy of the pedistal you put him on. You have him enshrined. And as far as trying to rush in Orton so that we get cassel ousted and wont risk being embarrassed when Cassel returns to get 50 passing tds next year, is utterly laughable. You need to find a conspiracy theory website to subscribe to. Hey, I was wrong about Palko. He SUCKED. See how easy that was? And im still alive! I would gladly admit being wrong about Cassel if it meant we could WIN a damned playoff game. I want to watch a winner for a change.
The Superbowl is a tall order for any team. I would like to get deep in the playoffs, at minimum. I don't care if Ray Charles is in there throwing the ball, as long as he can LEAD A TEAM. Keep both around for next season and let them fight it out for the job. Maybe Cassel WOULD perform better post Haley. He has had 38 games, Orton has had 2. I woulld like to see what happens in Denver this weekend to have another game under his belt to see if he posts some positive numbers. I dont think anyone slammed Cassel in the 1st 2 games. I was sitting in Gates Bbq and saw on my phone that we got him and Vrabel for a second rounder. I was HAPPY. So, i personally know I gave him alot of admiration in the beginning. Hopefully you will keep the blinders off and let people have an opinion and quit calling people out for not caring for Cassel. Orton was picked uo as a emergency backup. Cassel was picked up as qbotf. Who has the spotlight and pressure on them more? Who would be dissected with the loftiest of expections and approached with incredible scrutiny? We know who.
And you know? I gave you your respect a couple posts up for having a good post. And it, as always, was a huge pro cassel post. You need to start giving some respect to others who dont see it your way. It makes you look foolish.

figcrostic
12-27-2011, 03:37 PM
Came on here to see some more pros and cons on both qbs and here comes the Cassel hater bashing. Dude, you seriously need to take your blinders off and quit being so sensitive about your boy Cassel. Cassel is not the 2nd coming Of Joe Montana. He is 17-21 as a starter for the Chiefs. Find all the statistics to support your theory that he would be 38-0 IF (fill in blank) but he is a decent qb, thats it. If he was in instead of Palko in the Steelers game, we win. The guy has some skills but not worthy of the pedistal you put him on. You have him enshrined. And as far as trying to rush in Orton so that we get cassel ousted and wont risk being embarrassed when Cassel returns to get 50 passing tds next year, is utterly laughable. You need to find a conspiracy theory website to subscribe to. Hey, I was wrong about Palko. He SUCKED. See how easy that was? And im still alive! I would gladly admit being wrong about Cassel if it meant we could WIN a damned playoff game. I want to watch a winner for a change.
The Superbowl is a tall order for any team. I would like to get deep in the playoffs, at minimum. I don't care if Ray Charles is in there throwing the ball, as long as he can LEAD A TEAM. Keep both around for next season and let them fight it out for the job. Maybe Cassel WOULD perform better post Haley. He has had 38 games, Orton has had 2. I woulld like to see what happens in Denver this weekend to have another game under his belt to see if he posts some positive numbers. I dont think anyone slammed Cassel in the 1st 2 games. I was sitting in Gates Bbq and saw on my phone that we got him and Vrabel for a second rounder. I was HAPPY. So, i personally know I gave him alot of admiration in the beginning. Hopefully you will keep the blinders off and let people have an opinion and quit calling people out for not caring for Cassel. Orton was picked uo as a emergency backup. Cassel was picked up as qbotf. Who has the spotlight and pressure on them more? Who would be dissected with the loftiest of expections and approached with incredible scrutiny? We know who.
And you know? I gave you your respect a couple posts up for having a good post. And it, as always, was a huge pro cassel post. You need to start giving some respect to others who dont see it your way. It makes you look foolish.

Great post aside from eating at Gates.
Oklahoma Joes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gates

KCraised
12-27-2011, 04:36 PM
Porkys owns EVERYONE:-)

Hayvern
12-27-2011, 04:38 PM
He sucked this year.

#58ChiefsFan
12-27-2011, 07:14 PM
Chief 31 that is the problem I have with your posts. You always say "Well cassel didnt have the right playcalling, or if cassel just had .1 seconds more to throw, or if cassel had his dominate running game." Just stop with the excuses, you know its bad when we get a qb cut from denver who has played 2 games and now more people on this site are demanding we keep him to atleast battle with cassel, a qb who has played 38 games for us for the starting job. You need to hold cassel responsible, just about every post I have read from you is some type of excuse. He was paid that much and signed for a long amount of time to be OUR franchise guy. Just admit he sucked this year, that is all i want. We dont have to break down statistics over the last 3 years to show that he really isnt a capable qb, in fact let's not even talk abou tit. I just want you to admit he sucked this year.

The problem is no one on this board knows how much not having Haley in the mix has helped or even hindered Orton. There has been a major change in the game planning and calling with the departure of Haley.

I don't know how much that affects Orton postive or negative, hell Kyle may be capable of more than what we have seen these past two games. I don't think Matt should be outright cut, but both Orton and Cassel have earned the right to go into the offseason with the chance of being the starter next season.

chief31
12-27-2011, 07:23 PM
Came on here to see some more pros and cons on both qbs and here comes the Cassel hater bashing. Dude, you seriously need to take your blinders off and quit being so sensitive about your boy Cassel. Cassel is not the 2nd coming Of Joe Montana. He is 17-21 as a starter for the Chiefs. Find all the statistics to support your theory that he would be 38-0 IF (fill in blank) but he is a decent qb, thats it. If he was in instead of Palko in the Steelers game, we win. The guy has some skills but not worthy of the pedistal you put him on. You have him enshrined. And as far as trying to rush in Orton so that we get cassel ousted and wont risk being embarrassed when Cassel returns to get 50 passing tds next year, is utterly laughable. You need to find a conspiracy theory website to subscribe to. Hey, I was wrong about Palko. He SUCKED. See how easy that was? And im still alive! I would gladly admit being wrong about Cassel if it meant we could WIN a damned playoff game. I want to watch a winner for a change.
The Superbowl is a tall order for any team. I would like to get deep in the playoffs, at minimum. I don't care if Ray Charles is in there throwing the ball, as long as he can LEAD A TEAM. Keep both around for next season and let them fight it out for the job. Maybe Cassel WOULD perform better post Haley. He has had 38 games, Orton has had 2. I woulld like to see what happens in Denver this weekend to have another game under his belt to see if he posts some positive numbers. I dont think anyone slammed Cassel in the 1st 2 games. I was sitting in Gates Bbq and saw on my phone that we got him and Vrabel for a second rounder. I was HAPPY. So, i personally know I gave him alot of admiration in the beginning. Hopefully you will keep the blinders off and let people have an opinion and quit calling people out for not caring for Cassel. Orton was picked uo as a emergency backup. Cassel was picked up as qbotf. Who has the spotlight and pressure on them more? Who would be dissected with the loftiest of expections and approached with incredible scrutiny? We know who.
And you know? I gave you your respect a couple posts up for having a good post. And it, as always, was a huge pro cassel post. You need to start giving some respect to others who dont see it your way. It makes you look foolish.

Get over it.

There really are people who are too proud to admit a mistake, and who disappear when their opinions are looking bad, and are opportunistic in when they choose to have something to say.

If you are not one of those people, then you have no reason to defend yourself.

And, it is ridiculous to make completely fabricated claims on my behalf.

I have never made any insinuation that Cassel is "the second coming of (anybody)". I have zero theories about how Cassel would be 38-0, under any circumstances.




And you know? I gave you your respect a couple posts up for having a good post. And it, as always, was a huge pro cassel post. You need to start giving some respect to others who dont see it your way. It makes you look foolish.

Look, if you want some positive reinforcement, you needn't fish for compliments.

I respect a lot of what you have said around here.

In order for you to understand how to tell, if I respond to you, in discussing The Chiefs, then I have shown a certain amount of respect in doing so.

I may well disagree. But I do so with respect.


The Superbowl is a tall order for any team. I would like to get deep in the playoffs, at minimum. I don't care if Ray Charles is in there throwing the ball, as long as he can LEAD A TEAM. Keep both around for next season and let them fight it out for the job. Maybe Cassel WOULD perform better post Haley.

Now.... Since you did actually add some discussion points.....

I agree.

Where we seem to differ here is on rather, or not, Matt Cassel has shown the ability to be a great Q for this team.


I dont think anyone slammed Cassel in the 1st 2 games.

He was trashed long before he even put on a Chiefs uniform.

And, if you don't think that he was criticized, from start to finish, you must not pay any attention to the world.

Any time a QB replaces another, there is constant comparisons. And, in those comparisons, will be complaints.

I am sure this statement was an exageration.


Hopefully you will keep the blinders off and let people have an opinion and quit calling people out for not caring for Cassel.

I don't have any blinders on.

I am incapable of denying anybody of an opinion.

And I did not call anybody out for not caring about Matt Cassel.

I call people out for placing their pride above the good of The Chiefs.:D


Orton was picked uo as a emergency backup. Cassel was picked up as qbotf. Who has the spotlight and pressure on them more? Who would be dissected with the loftiest of expections and approached with incredible scrutiny? We know who.

Fair enough.

But the fact remains that my opinion of how well Matt Cassel has done, with the circumstances he has had to deal with might differ from others.

And, I will share my opinion on the matter.

And you will likely to continue to play the game of trying to suggest that my position is not where I place it, but where you place it.

Unfortunately, this will not convince me to think that Matt Cassel is any kind of immortal, or whatever nonsense you want to project for me.

My opinion is that Matt Cassel has been far more successful than what he gets from most Chiefs fans.

Don't like it?

Feel free to disagree and make any explanation/discussion you like. But arguing against an opinion that is not mine, isn't going to work.

Also, if you want respect, then maintain yours. Throwing fits like this are not respectful.

Chiefster
12-27-2011, 07:31 PM
I love...Oh, you know! :D

chief31
12-27-2011, 07:38 PM
Chief 31 that is the problem I have with your posts. You always say "Well cassel didnt have the right playcalling, or if cassel just had .1 seconds more to throw, or if cassel had his dominate running game."

I have never said any of that.

None.




Just stop with the excuses, you know its bad when we get a qb cut from denver who has played 2 games and now more people on this site are demanding we keep him to atleast battle with cassel, a qb who has played 38 games for us for the starting job.

I am wanting to keep him to battle for the starting QB job.

My issue is with those demanding "Matt Cassel must go!"

That's the guy who led a 2-14 team to the playoffs in his second year here, and recovered from the train wreck that was the start of this season, to run off four straight wins.

To suggest that we are better without him, when we just watched what Palko did, and we know that Stanzi didn't get one snap, even with how Palko was doing, is insane.

Funny thing....

We have "Cassel is the greatest", "Cassel is the worst" and then we have the wide, grey, middle ground.

I am in the middle.

But, when you are far enough toward either of the ends, then you want to act like I am at the other end.




You need to hold cassel responsible, just about every post I have read from you is some type of excuse. He was paid that much and signed for a long amount of time to be OUR franchise guy. Just admit he sucked this year, that is all i want. We dont have to break down statistics over the last 3 years to show that he really isnt a capable qb, in fact let's not even talk abou tit. I just want you to admit he sucked this year.

I have already stated that Cassel had some bad games.

The fact is, he had some good games too.

But it is 100% impossible for me to "admit" that Cassel sucked this year. Because I do not believe it.

I believe that he had some bad games, and that he did well for the circumstances he was put in.

Any QB asked to lead the #1 running game, in an offense designed for the running game, who finds that the running game is not good, but will continue to be the focus of the offense..... Will look bad.

But to win four of nine games under those circumstances is better than I would expect from a good QB.

Ryfo18
12-27-2011, 08:18 PM
Great post aside from eating at Gates.
Oklahoma Joes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gates

This might be your best post ever.

KCraised
12-27-2011, 09:24 PM
WHo thought that 300 yards passing was not possible?

And the thing that made beating The Packers seem impossible was that it looked impossible to slow down that offense.

Orton helped in doing that, by moving the ball. But it was the other side of the ball that did the "impossible".

Orton has done exactly what I would expect him to do.

With a coaching change made, and more coaching positions in jeopardy, our OC is trying to prove that he can make something happen with the offense.

It's desparation, air-it-out time, and Orton is the statistical benficiary.

And, as with any O-line group, if you shuffle the personnel to start the season, it will be the second half of the season before you start seeing the unit come together and start playing to their potential, as a group.

And yet, there is this insane exaggeration as if Orton has put up 70 points in his two games, but the reailty is that we have not reached 20 in either.

Here's is what I see....

Those who hated Matt Cassel when he was 10-6, with 27 TDs/7INTs are now just desparate to get rid of him before he gets the chance to make them look foolish again.

"HURRY! HURRY! HURRY! And get him out, so I will not be humiliated by more Chiefs success with him at QB."

I watched as so many people became non-existent on these boards, because Cassel was winning, and looking good, proving them wrong.

But, with every loss, those people would return for the week to scream and shout about how terrible Matt Cassel is.

Every single opportunity to show that they were right about it, they are as loud as any member ever gets here.

Lighting up the board with their desparate cries to get him out before he could do it to them again.

And then, when he went on a four game winning streak....

Silence.

I know that this is not everybody. So no need to make your case to me. If you do not fit the description of poasting like mad when he is not doing well, and dissolving when he does, then you were not the target of that message.

Throwing fits, huh? How does this post above read? The pot calling the kettle, I tell ya. Thats a defensive rant if ive ever saw it. If you look at the posts i made in this thread, which you replied to one of them actually with a calm non sarcastic demeanor, i have used the word "productive". Saying this is a negative for Cassel or this is a positive for Cassel can be "productive". And don't act like you've never thrashed an anti cassel statement of mine. You just are probably going through the pains of your guy might not be Mr. Right. I understand your sensitivity to it.
Also, when people give out predictions of scores and pregame opinions, I never really ever see your screename. Is it because its much easier to just thrash people after the fact and and not take a risk of guessing wrong? I was wondering about that...

chief31
12-27-2011, 09:53 PM
Throwing fits, huh? How does this post above read? The pot calling the kettle, I tell ya. Thats a defensive rant if ive ever saw it. If you look at the posts i made in this thread, which you replied to one of them actually with a calm non sarcastic demeanor, i have used the word "productive". Saying this is a negative for Cassel or this is a positive for Cassel can be "productive". And don't act like you've never thrashed an anti cassel statement of mine. You just are probably going through the pains of your guy might not be Mr. Right. I understand your sensitivity to it.
Also, when people give out predictions of scores and pregame opinions, I never really ever see your screename. Is it because its much easier to just thrash people after the fact and and not take a risk of guessing wrong? I was wondering about that...

Seriously... Take a breath.

The path of getting yourself all worked up doesn't go anywhere.

And can you go ahead and stop the attempts to say that I am somehow in love with a player, because I maybe think he is better than what you do?

I appreciate it.

Now...

Why are you pointing out a positive that you have made toward Matt Cassel?

Has somebody accused you of never saying anything positive? I don't get where you are coming from with that.

And while I think it is a bad idea, I have been fully aware that Matt Cassel may not be here next season for awhile now.

As for predictions, I make plenty of them.

If you have missed them, perhaps it is because you are relatively new here, and maybe using selective memory?

Now look... I have made sure not to be too harsh in responding, so how about if you offer up the same kind of respect, Ok?

Canada
12-27-2011, 09:57 PM
I see someone else has filled my spot as resident Sh!t disturber!!:D

chief31
12-27-2011, 10:04 PM
I see someone else has filled my spot as resident Sh!t disturber!!:D

You have left a pretty big void. :lol:

KCraised
12-27-2011, 10:18 PM
Ha! Ill take that title, even though I would rather not;-)
I just noticed you have a high post count and I really don't see any threads started by you. It's obvious you have something to say...lol
No, my whole point was a couple posts up. They aren't hidden. i tried to change the direction of the against/for extremes for one qb or another. Both qbs have strengths and weaknesses so list them up and come to a conclusion. Thought it was really cool but then I saw your lashing out at the Pro Orton/anti cassel thing again and said man, just when it seemed like there was some productive structure to the hot topic, instead of all the bashing from one side or the other, here it comes again.
So, take it how you want to. Read the posts above and you'll see the angle I was going for and the intent was good. I think you and coach have about the highest post counts on this forum. So i know my place, in that respect. There's no shame in supporting Cassel at ALL but for the love of God, 2 positives and THEN a negative...lol

chief31
12-27-2011, 10:31 PM
Ha! Ill take that title, even though I would rather not;-)
I just noticed you have a high post count and I really don't see any threads started by you. It's obvious you have something to say...lol
No, my whole point was a couple posts up. They aren't hidden. i tried to change the direction of the against/for extremes for one qb or another. Both qbs have strengths and weaknesses so list them up and come to a conclusion. Thought it was really cool but then I saw your lashing out at the Pro Orton/anti cassel thing again and said man, just when it seemed like there was some productive structure to the hot topic, instead of all the bashing from one side or the other, here it comes again.
So, take it how you want to. Read the posts above and you'll see the angle I was going for and the intent was good. I think you and coach have about the highest post counts on this forum. So i know my place, in that respect. There's no shame in supporting Cassel at ALL but for the love of God, 2 positives and THEN a negative...lol

Thank you.

It is usually impossible to get these kind of situations to cool down.

As for the "2positives, and then a negative", did you notice that my comment toward "Cassel-haters" was made in a response to someone else, and specifically removed those who are not guilty of the accusations, from blame?

I was speaking generally, of how I have watched people, since the day Matt was traded for, who refused to give him any chance to make his case.

You want to have an all-positive discussion?

Sounds good.

But not everybody has to play that way, nor will they.

But, you could always try to start a thread to that effect, and hope that it is respected as intended.

I will participate, should you choose that, or even if you choose to try and continue it here. But I will also participate in other conversation.

KCraised
12-27-2011, 10:40 PM
Thank you.

It is usually impossible to get these kind of situations to cool down.

As for the "2positives, and then a negative", did you notice that my comment toward "Cassel-haters" was made in a response to someone else, and specifically removed those who are not guilty of the accusations, from blame?

I was speaking generally, of how I have watched people, since the day Matt was traded for, who refused to give him any chance to make his case.

You want to have an all-positive discussion?

Sounds good.

But not everybody has to play that way, nor will they.

But, you could always try to start a thread to that effect, and hope that it is respected as intended.

I will participate, should you choose that, or even if you choose to try and continue it here. But I will also participate in other conversation.



I was just thinking the same thing about a thread. I shall do that. Too many random blowups on threads here and there and im guilty as well of having a nasty retort.
Lets all play nice and get a fresh start

ctchiefsfan
12-27-2011, 11:14 PM
Lets all play nice and get a fresh start

Halle-friggn-lulya!!!!

All this ship has been started by one brand new to the board single-player homer. And he has gotten us all snapping at each other like rabid dogs.

He has no interest in a reasoned discussion. Single player homer. Nothing more.

Appears on the board for the first time after the player whose jock he sniffs is picked up by our Chiefs and within a few weeks this whole board is a one topic discussion and one big fight.

We've been sounding like a bunch of Raiders fans. Me included! The little weasle sucked me in too.

:troll31: Just ignore him.

Canada
12-27-2011, 11:46 PM
Ha! Ill take that title, even though I would rather not;-)
You have a long way to go to take that job!! :bananen_smilies046:

KCraised
12-27-2011, 11:55 PM
You have a long way to go to take that job!! :bananen_smilies046:

I can't even imagine what it would take....but I would rather leave it imagining....lol

Chiefster
12-27-2011, 11:57 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

TopekaRoy
12-28-2011, 04:19 AM
Halle-friggn-lulya!!!!

All this ship has been started by one brand new to the board single-player homer. And he has gotten us all snapping at each other like rabid dogs.

He has no interest in a reasoned discussion. Single player homer. Nothing more.

Appears on the board for the first time after the player whose jock he sniffs is picked up by our Chiefs and within a few weeks this whole board is a one topic discussion and one big fight.

We've been sounding like a bunch of Raiders fans. Me included! The little weasle sucked me in too.

:troll31: Just ignore him.I think you are being a little too hard on MMO. He's a big fan of Kyle's and he is passionate about it. All he is done is come on here and express the same opinion (and backed it up with the same arguments) over and over and over again. For the most part, he has been pretty respectful toward others while strenuously (and sometimes stubbornly) sticking to his guns.

You can't blame him for how you and others react to what he says. You will notice that I haven't engaged him in a lot of debate. If I have an opinion or perspective that hasn't been expressed already 100 times, I will jump in, make my case and jump back out.

This is a public forum and people have a right to say what they want. We, in turn, have a right to respond however we want, but we are solely responsible for the way in which we react.