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figcrostic
12-25-2011, 11:34 AM
Under a good line with a good run game Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton would be both good qb's....ELite? No, but good. I personally think Kyle Orton is the better passer I think he makes quicker decisions, he scans the field better, he throws a more accurate deep ball, he spreads the ball better, and just fundamentally throws the better ball. Matt Cassel is a tough SOB and I have always said that, he played tight end and is a better runner and everyone is right Cassel would have knocked that LB over and got that first down. The real questions is what direction do we want to go in. Modern teams that win superbowls have great qb's, Manning brothers (Eli may not be great but he's definetly good) , Rodgers, Brady, Roethlisberger etc. With the rules of protecting the WR's and qb it just seems like you need a great qb to win but doesn't necessarily make it 100%. No matter what I hope we can all agree that we need help on our O-line the Raiders game was appalling. Two blocked FG's that's just embarrassing. Not trying to bum anyone out on Christmas I think we looked so good against GB it just got everyones hopes up lets be honest we are a team that is on the brink of being good we just haven't quite found our identity but I really think next year we will be a playoff team especially when our injured players comeback.

toyotapower
12-25-2011, 11:59 AM
Yesterday was a huge argument for drafting o-line. Two blocked field goals is just ridiculous. Picking someone up in free agency would be great too. I'm not thrilled with our qb situation but its better than our line situation.

azchiefsfan
12-25-2011, 12:13 PM
I am happy with the two QB's we have. I would like to see how Cassel does under a different HC before judging him. He put up HUGE numbers at NE and did pretty well last year. I like Cassel and hope he can come back and stomp Orton for starter. But if Orton turns out to be the better passer, I'm willing to root for him and get behind him for our QB. I am quite cofident with our two QB's we are in good shape there and we should just work on our OL and getting a quality backup QB. Palko has to go.

slc chief
12-25-2011, 01:12 PM
these two quarterbacks are average.and average quarterbacks hardly ever win you championships.most of the time you need an elite quarterback to win a superbowl.look at the last superbowl champions and who they have as qb's
manning colts
brady pats
rodgers g.b
roethlesberger.pit
manning nyg
you need a franchise qb to win on a consitent basis not just a plug in guy that you hope will play descent.

okikcfan
12-25-2011, 01:22 PM
We need a quarterback to bring the franchise back to the way it once was all too long ago, we need a much better Oline and we need to beef up the D. We need to bring Pride back to the AFC West, we need...I need to wake up, I think the coffee is done.....

Coach
12-25-2011, 03:38 PM
As long as we're being honest, let's assess why we lost yesterday. The reason we were even in this spot is because of all the injuries this team has had. The play that setup the field goal was a ball thrown over the top that Eric Berry likely would have been able to make a play on. Without the injuries, this team wins at least 1-2 more games this year. Meaning they would have win the division. But lets face it, if we can't beat a team like the raiders at arrowhead, then we have no business in the playoffs.

nigeriannightmare
12-25-2011, 04:31 PM
Yes, we need a qb. I honestly dont care if it is orton or not, just get cassel out. We can't settle for mediocrity anymore or for the next 3 years we will be looking at 7-9 seasons, especially if the schedule is decent.

Btw, i really appreciate you okikc, that AV pic is the hottest chick i have ever seen. She's perfect

We play the nfc south next yr so that will be tough but we will play he other teans that finish the bottom of their divisions since we will be in last place. So next yrs schedule wont be as tough as this years. U win u play tougher teams u lose u play weaker ones thats the way they do it.

chief31
12-25-2011, 04:40 PM
Under a good line with a good run game Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton would be both good qb's....ELite? No, but good. I personally think Kyle Orton is the better passer I think he makes quicker decisions, he scans the field better, he throws a more accurate deep ball, he spreads the ball better, and just fundamentally throws the better ball. Matt Cassel is a tough SOB and I have always said that, he played tight end and is a better runner and everyone is right Cassel would have knocked that LB over and got that first down. The real questions is what direction do we want to go in. Modern teams that win superbowls have great qb's, Manning brothers (Eli may not be great but he's definetly good) , Rodgers, Brady, Roethlisberger etc. With the rules of protecting the WR's and qb it just seems like you need a great qb to win but doesn't necessarily make it 100%. No matter what I hope we can all agree that we need help on our O-line the Raiders game was appalling. Two blocked FG's that's just embarrassing. Not trying to bum anyone out on Christmas I think we looked so good against GB it just got everyones hopes up lets be honest we are a team that is on the brink of being good we just haven't quite found our identity but I really think next year we will be a playoff team especially when our injured players comeback.

I may be the lone wolf on this, but I think both Cassel, and Orton, have the ability to be elite QBs.

In Matt Cassel's first season on the field, he was right at the brink, and he was awfully close again, in 2010, with an offense that revolves around running, instead of throwing.

And Kyle Orton had elite statistics in 2010, only to see his offense killed by the firing of his HC, then getting benched.

Now, if you put either of them in s***ty circumstances (Cassel 1009 and 2011 - Orton 2005 and 2008) then they aren't going to do well, just like any QB ever....

Only Peyton Manning gets my nod as the exception here. But that took him more than a season to overcome and adapt.

And, as you said, the one missing element to judging any QB we might start in 2012, is what type of offense we will be installing/running.

But I truly think that Orton, or Cassel can be among the league's absolute best, if we put them into a good situation.

Chiefster
12-25-2011, 06:11 PM
I maybe wrong but those blocked Field Goal attempts seemed to me to come against kicks with low trajectory.

Anyway, I think it's difficult to establish an identity among the players when they are constantly having to get used to new coaching personnel and philosophies year in and year out.

okikcfan
12-25-2011, 07:04 PM
As long as we're being honest, let's assess why we lost yesterday. The reason we were even in this spot is because of all the injuries this team has had. The play that setup the field goal was a ball thrown over the top that Eric Berry likely would have been able to make a play on. Without the injuries, this team wins at least 1-2 more games this year. Meaning they would have win the division. But lets face it, if we can't beat a team like the raiders at arrowhead, then we have no business in the playoffs.

Until the GB game I believed the same thing. The fact is, is there is no excuse why we played the way we did. And really, even if we had won, we still had no business in the playoffs. This division sucks!

azchiefsfan,
I am happy with the two QB's we have. I would like to see how Cassel does under a different HC before judging him.
That to me is also part of the problem, (not being mean) I am not happy with the two QB's we have but it's all we have right now. Heck, even when Phillip Rivers (Whom I Hate) is having a bad year he's better than anything we have. We don't need an ok QB, we need, we want, WE DESERVE The BEST!

slc chief,

these two quarterbacks are average.and average quarterbacks hardly ever win you championships.most of the time you need an elite quarterback to win a superbowl.look at the last superbowl champions and who they have as qb's
manning colts
brady pats
rodgers g.b
roethlesberger.pit
manning nyg
you need a franchise qb to win on a consitent basis not just a plug in guy that you hope will play descent.


Yea, What he said!

:chiefs: :chiefs: :chiefs: :chiefs: :chiefs:

chief31
12-25-2011, 07:20 PM
Wouldnt Orton also be in crappy circumstances in 11 according to you with the chiefs?

Yes. But, the advantage of the offense having "gelled" and the removal of the HC, therefor leading to much more aggressive, QB stat-making, offensive play-calling means that Orton's situation was not as big of a hinderance.

Cassel was running the Jamaal Charles offense, without Janaal Charles.

Orton was running a "help the OC save his job" offense.

Still not a good situation, but beneficial to QB statistics.


I dont think either one of them has the chance to be elite. Although he didn't put up great numbers orton did go 10-5 in 2005 his rookie year

Those are horrible numbers.

But yes, he did go 10-5 as a rookie. Just like Matt Cassel went 11-5 as a first time starter.

Advantage Cassel?

figcrostic
12-25-2011, 07:22 PM
I may be the lone wolf on this, but I think both Cassel, and Orton, have the ability to be elite QBs.

In Matt Cassel's first season on the field, he was right at the brink, and he was awfully close again, in 2010, with an offense that revolves around running, instead of throwing.

And Kyle Orton had elite statistics in 2010, only to see his offense killed by the firing of his HC, then getting benched.

Now, if you put either of them in s***ty circumstances (Cassel 1009 and 2011 - Orton 2005 and 2008) then they aren't going to do well, just like any QB ever....

Only Peyton Manning gets my nod as the exception here. But that took him more than a season to overcome and adapt.

And, as you said, the one missing element to judging any QB we might start in 2012, is what type of offense we will be installing/running.

But I truly think that Orton, or Cassel can be among the league's absolute best, if we put them into a good situation.

Given the right situation they can both win games, it seemed like with Haley that we tried to make few mistakes at the qb, run 60% of the time, and take up as much of the clock as we could. Last year our O-line looked so much better with Jamaal Charles this year we have average running backs and we look like crap. If we are going to be successful we need to beef up our line Weigman is too old, Lilja might be too little, Barry Richardson is awful, not sure about Asamoah and I personally think Branden Albert is playing out of position don't get me wrong he's not bad but he's not Willie Roaf and that's what we need. I would like us to work on our O-line that is our biggest issue in my mind bar none if Cassel/Orton still aren't getting it done behind a good O-line then we can draft a guy next year. On defense all we need is Berry back and a huge strong NT preferably Dontari Poe.

chief31
12-25-2011, 07:36 PM
Which of these QB lines would you prefer?


QB #1

63.9%; 2,843 Yards; 18 TDs; 12 INTs; 86.5 QB Rating

60.2%; 3,620 Yards; 23 TDs; 12 INTs; 85.9 QB Rating

60.8%; 3,692 Yards; 28 TDs; 14 INTs; 92.6 QB Rating

Or.........


QB #2

68.9%; 4,806 Yards; 50 TDs; 8 INTs; 117.2 QB Rating

65.7%; 4,398 Yards; 28 TDs; 13 INTs; 96.2 QB Rating

65.9%; 3,900 Yards; 36 TDs; 4 INTs; 111.0 QB Rating

chief31
12-25-2011, 07:40 PM
Given the right situation they can both win games, it seemed like with Haley that we tried to make few mistakes at the qb, run 60% of the time, and take up as much of the clock as we could. Last year our O-line looked so much better with Jamaal Charles this year we have average running backs and we look like crap. If we are going to be successful we need to beef up our line Weigman is too old, Lilja might be too little, Barry Richardson is awful, not sure about Asamoah and I personally think Branden Albert is playing out of position don't get me wrong he's not bad but he's not Willie Roaf and that's what we need. I would like us to work on our O-line that is our biggest issue in my mind bar none if Cassel/Orton still aren't getting it done behind a good O-line then we can draft a guy next year. On defense all we need is Berry back and a huge strong NT

On this, we agree.

But I am of the belief that, if we get quality O-line in place, where needed, and, most importantly, a real engineer of offense at OC, then Matt Cassel, or Kyle Orton can become elite QBs.

okikcfan
12-25-2011, 07:47 PM
Which of these QB lines would you prefer?


QB #1

63.9%; 2,843 Yards; 18 TDs; 12 INTs; 86.5 QB Rating

60.2%; 3,620 Yards; 23 TDs; 12 INTs; 85.9 QB Rating

60.8%; 3,692 Yards; 28 TDs; 14 INTs; 92.6 QB Rating

Or.........


QB #2

68.9%; 4,806 Yards; 50 TDs; 8 INTs; 117.2 QB Rating

65.7%; 4,398 Yards; 28 TDs; 13 INTs; 96.2 QB Rating

65.9%; 3,900 Yards; 36 TDs; 4 INTs; 111.0 QB Rating

:lol: Is this a trick question? Ahhh, # 2?

chief31
12-25-2011, 09:02 PM
:lol: Is this a trick question? Ahhh, # 2?

They are all the same QB.

QB #1, however, is the three seasons when he won The Super Bowl, and QB #2 is three of his bet statistical seasons.

The Patriots won Super Bowls three out of four years. But that was back when Tom Brady was a "boring" QB.

Since then, Tom Brady became an "elite" QB, and has not won in the past six Super Bowls.

okikcfan
12-25-2011, 10:48 PM
NFL record for most consecutive wins in post season: 10 (broke record of Green Bay's Bart Starr).
Most consecutive post season wins (college and professional combined): 12
3 Super Bowl victories
2 Super Bowl MVP awards
Most completions in a Super Bowl (32 in Super Bowl XXXVIII)
Most career Super Bowl completions (100 in four games)
Highest completion percentage in a single game, minimum 20 attempts (26 of 28, 92.9%, against Jacksonville in 2007 AFC Divisional round)

And that would be a dream come true!

okikcfan
12-25-2011, 11:05 PM
They are all the same QB.

QB #1, however, is the three seasons when he won The Super Bowl, and QB #2 is three of his bet statistical seasons.

The Patriots won Super Bowls three out of four years. But that was back when Tom Brady was a "boring" QB.

Since then, Tom Brady became an "elite" QB, and has not won in the past six Super Bowls.



But he has given his team a much better chance at getting there than any of our QB's

chief31
12-26-2011, 12:30 AM
But he has given his team a much better chance at getting there than any of our QB's

And a far worse chance than when he was playing more like our QBs.

The point is that concentrating on your passing attack, over defense and running game, is not the pure success that we seem to think it is.

Tom Brady won three Super Bowls while putting forward some very mediocre statistics.

likewise, ....

59.9%; 3,301 Yards; 17 TDs; 15 INTs; 80.1 QB Rating
62.7%; 2,385 Yards; 17 TDs; 9 INTs; 98.6 QB Rating

Those are the two seasons that found Ben Roethlisberger winning The Super Bowl, and....

65.3%; 3,154 Yards; 32 TDs; 11 INTs; 104.1 QB Rating
66.6%; 4,328 Yards; 26 TDs; 12 INTs; 100.5 QB Rating

These two season, when Big Ben put up the "elite QB" statistics, he has not.

Ben and Brady are the only two QBs in the game, right now, who have won multiple Super Bowls, and they both did it while putting fourth pedestrian passing statistics, and have been unable to do it, while having "elite QB" years.

There is so much more to football than leading the league in passing stats.

chief31
12-26-2011, 12:40 AM
But he has given his team a much better chance at getting there than any of our QB's

There are 21 other starters between the offense, and the defense.

Those guys have a whole lot more to do with the team's success than what Cassel-haters like to admit.

Well, they don't mind admitting it when Kyle Orton can't get a win vs. The Raiders. :lol:

figcrostic
12-26-2011, 12:55 AM
And a far worse chance than when he was playing more like our QBs.

The point is that concentrating on your passing attack, over defense and running game, is not the pure success that we seem to think it is.

Tom Brady won three Super Bowls while putting forward some very mediocre statistics.

likewise, ....

59.9%; 3,301 Yards; 17 TDs; 15 INTs; 80.1 QB Rating
62.7%; 2,385 Yards; 17 TDs; 9 INTs; 98.6 QB Rating

Those are the two seasons that found Ben Roethlisberger winning The Super Bowl, and....

65.3%; 3,154 Yards; 32 TDs; 11 INTs; 104.1 QB Rating
66.6%; 4,328 Yards; 26 TDs; 12 INTs; 100.5 QB Rating

These two season, when Big Ben put up the "elite QB" statistics, he has not.

Ben and Brady are the only two QBs in the game, right now, who have won multiple Super Bowls, and they both did it while putting fourth pedestrian passing statistics, and have been unable to do it, while having "elite QB" years.

There is so much more to football than leading the league in passing stats.

Tom Brady hasn't won a superbowl because of the Vinateri curse. They won 3 with Vinateri, he left went to Indy and they won one as well. The Pats haven't won a superbowl since. :lol:

ctchiefsfan
12-26-2011, 06:57 AM
Good stuff chief31! I'm not much of a "stat watcher" but those numbers seem to suggest what I have always believed....great passers DON'T win SuperBowls.....great defenses and O-Lines DO win SuperBowls.

Witness the Staubach/Bradshaw SuperBowls.

Sometimes it all comes down to the QB and his arm. But the day in day out business of winning 10, 11, 12 or 13 games per year ultimately relies on the defense and the O-Line.

figcrostic
12-26-2011, 11:35 AM
Good stuff chief31! I'm not much of a "stat watcher" but those numbers seem to suggest what I have always believed....great passers DON'T win SuperBowls.....great defenses and O-Lines DO win SuperBowls.

Witness the Staubach/Bradshaw SuperBowls.

Sometimes it all comes down to the QB and his arm. But the day in day out business of winning 10, 11, 12 or 13 games per year ultimately relies on the defense and the O-Line.

Last 5 superbowl winning QB's regular season stats

2010 Aaron Rodgers 65.7% 3,922 yards 28td's 11int
2009 Drew Brees 70.6% 4,388 yards 34td's 11 int
2008 Ben Roethlisberger 59.9% 3,301 yards 17td's 15int
2007 Eli Manning 56.1 3,336 23 20
2006 Peyton Manning 65.0% 4,397 yards 31td's 9int

So basically only 2 out of 5 teams had qb's that put up pedestrian numbers but they also had amazing defenses so I guess pedestrian numbers can win the Superbowl with amazing defenses but it's more then likely elite qb numbers will win it. So we either need to get our defense ridulous and protect our qb well or get the next Peyton Manning.

chief31
12-26-2011, 07:35 PM
Last 5 superbowl winning QB's regular season stats

2010 Aaron Rodgers 65.7% 3,922 yards 28td's 11int
2009 Drew Brees 70.6% 4,388 yards 34td's 11 int
2008 Ben Roethlisberger 59.9% 3,301 yards 17td's 15int
2007 Eli Manning 56.1 3,336 23 20
2006 Peyton Manning 65.0% 4,397 yards 31td's 9int

So basically only 2 out of 5 teams had qb's that put up pedestrian numbers but they also had amazing defenses so I guess pedestrian numbers can win the Superbowl with amazing defenses but it's more then likely elite qb numbers will win it. So we either need to get our defense ridulous and protect our qb well or get the next Peyton Manning.

Sure, a slight edge goes to the passing offenses if you stop at five years.

Try a little bit further back, and the message is far different.

For six straight years prior to that, you get the numbers I already listed for Big Ben and Tom Brady, adding in Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

And, as stated, even of those five you listed, two were not all-pass teams.

I agree that The NFL seems to be working the rules to discourage defense and running offense in favor of passing.

But I think it will take a few more years to determine if it is the new rule, that pass-happy is the answer.

okikcfan
12-26-2011, 08:09 PM
There are 21 other starters between the offense, and the defense.

Those guys have a whole lot more to do with the team's success than what Cassel-haters like to admit.

Well, they don't mind admitting it when Kyle Orton can't get a win vs. The Raiders. :lol:

Ah, I will be the first to admit that our O line is a big part of the problem. There is no argument there. I am not saying that Cassel or Orton should be our long term QB. I just want who I feel is the best one. Not that one is a boat load better than the other. Right now Orton is our QB, like it or not. I'm not looking long term on either of them just for the simple fact that we have no for sure idea who our coach next year will be. If we do not win against Tebow as we should have beat the Faiders, I do not feel Crennel will be our HC, now that's just me. Our team is much better than what they appear. I just have this gut feeling there will be a shakeup.

figcrostic
12-27-2011, 12:12 AM
Sure, a slight edge goes to the passing offenses if you stop at five years.

Try a little bit further back, and the message is far different.

For six straight years prior to that, you get the numbers I already listed for Big Ben and Tom Brady, adding in Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

And, as stated, even of those five you listed, two were not all-pass teams.

I agree that The NFL seems to be working the rules to discourage defense and running offense in favor of passing.

But I think it will take a few more years to determine if it is the new rule, that pass-happy is the answer.



I think your right in that it's not there yet but it will be out of the 4 teams that have a lock on the playoffs 2 have elite qb's and two have elite defenses, but I think it's getting more and more pass friendly.

pojote
12-27-2011, 09:16 AM
But you still need a capable quarterback, quarterbacks that can play tough teams and win. Cassel hasn't proven that because he cant. Look at the past super bowl winners in the last 10 years, all of them had capable quarterbacks that played well in the playoffs as well as in the regular season against the good teams MAYBE with the exception of brad johnson. Some like to brin up ben rothlesburger, how many super bowls did the steelers win before big ben came? With the exception of the super bowl, mainly because pitt pounded the ball against seattle that game, he played absolutely brilliant in the playoffs of 05 not to mention the game winning drive in the super bowl against Arizona in 2009 with 2 minutes left to go.

I dont even want to bring up cassel's stats again, but they have been absolutely atrocious in 09,10 and 11 against good teams. And these arent misinformed stats that dont show the whole truth. They do, he sucks against good teams. Since everyone wants to talk about Cassel's 2010 year, look at San Diego, Raiders, Baltimore, indy the list goes on and on

I agree with you, but Orton can't either. The thing is, how can we get a QB that really can win games by himself. By draft? Not in 2012, I don't see how. By trade? I don't think Brees, Rodgers, Brady are in the market right now.

okikcfan
12-27-2011, 09:40 AM
As we have seen in the past picking a QB in the first round is not always a sure thing. Getting to the play offs is one thing but getting beyond that is a whole other ball game. We need a good QB and neither Matt Cassel or Kyle Orton will be the one's to get us there. Bowe or Carr has not been resigned, Cassel or Orton could be traded, Crennel may or my NOT be our HC next year. The future is uncertain in Chiefs Land and bickering over Cassel and Orton is endless. It's kinda like turning on ESPN and hearing nothing but Tebow all freaking day long. In the long run, what we feel or say here in the ChiefsCrowd means nothing to Hunt or Pioli. Just sayin

chief31
12-27-2011, 12:40 PM
But you still need a capable quarterback, quarterbacks that can play tough teams and win. Cassel hasn't proven that because he cant. Look at the past super bowl winners in the last 10 years, all of them had capable quarterbacks that played well in the playoffs as well as in the regular season against the good teams MAYBE with the exception of brad johnson. Some like to brin up ben rothlesburger, how many super bowls did the steelers win before big ben came? With the exception of the super bowl, mainly because pitt pounded the ball against seattle that game, he played absolutely brilliant in the playoffs of 05 not to mention the game winning drive in the super bowl against Arizona in 2009 with 2 minutes left to go.

I dont even want to bring up cassel's stats again, but they have been absolutely atrocious in 09,10 and 11 against good teams. And these arent misinformed stats that dont show the whole truth. They do, he sucks against good teams. Since everyone wants to talk about Cassel's 2010 year, look at San Diego, Raiders, Baltimore, indy the list goes on and on

Bad football teams do poorly against the best football teams, far more often than not.

The O-line has played poorly against the better defenses, as has the rest of our poor offense, game-planning included, has too.

That is what a good defense does to opposing offense.

And, when you are a rebuilding team, as this one has been since Cassel got here, you improve over time, and learn to beat good teams/defenses.

This was to be the year when our offense would reach the point of being expected to stand up to the better teams, and beome their better, just as it was for our defense.

But, as I have stated, this offense was "The Jamaal Charles show" and the very design of the offense lost it's wheels when JC went down.

(Bad idea to design this offense on the running game, without recognizing that our running game was the result of one individual's talent, as opposed to the team beaing able to run the ball well.)

Seek
12-27-2011, 01:50 PM
realistically, I have never seen Cassel hit a receiver deep down the field without that receiver having to adjust. Orton is a much more accurate thrower than Cassel and that is glaringly obvious to me.

The problem is that Orton is Orton. The interception in the end zone is the type of play that keeps Orton off the list of great qbs. He is highly inconsistent in game performance. One game he is lights out, the next he looks like Cassel.

Realistically, people who want that Elite QB, well everyone is looking for that guy and you will either have to spend a ton, for the HOPES that you find that guy or get lucky finding one in a player like Stanzi.

Given the situation the Chiefs are in, Realistically, they will have to build around what they have and hope that Stanzi is that type of guy, or draft another QB in the future and hope he is that next Tom Brady. I don't see the Chiefs trading away their entire draft and future draft to move up for a Luck or RG3 and HOPE they are that next Elite QB.

AkChief49
12-27-2011, 09:57 PM
The problem is that Orton is Orton. The interception in the end zone is the type of play that keeps Orton off the list of great qbs. He is highly inconsistent in game performance. One game he is lights out, the next he looks like Cassel.


I did not get to see the game-listened on the internet radio-but on the play prior to the interception, did Bowe drop a TD? Or was it an impossible catch? Like I said, I did not get to see the game.

I am not defending Orton. Our entire team is blame though, for the atrocious red zone efficiency. Actually the lack of any RZ efficiency

I'm beating a dead horse:beat_DeadHorse: but that game should never have gone to overtime! Discipline was entirely absent.

Seek
12-28-2011, 11:12 AM
I did not get to see the game-listened on the internet radio-but on the play prior to the interception, did Bowe drop a TD? Or was it an impossible catch? Like I said, I did not get to see the game.

I am not defending Orton. Our entire team is blame though, for the atrocious red zone efficiency. Actually the lack of any RZ efficiency

I'm beating a dead horse:beat_DeadHorse: but that game should never have gone to overtime! Discipline was entirely absent.


It was on the money and should have been caught, but Bowe did have a guy on him which tends to be when he drops balls. Still it happened, and the next pass was just aweful, No Chief Player within 10 yards of the ball. Horrible pass by Orton, which has been his downfall in Denver.

Maybe he is trusting of his receivers when they are not on the same page. He clearly was trying to make something happen that was just not there.

okikcfan
12-29-2011, 10:07 AM
I like Bowe, He is a great receiver and could in time be an elite receiver. But his dropped balls have cost us games. Haley benched Bowe last year and he has improved. I would hate to give up on him right now. Give him one more year under new management and let's see what happens. Multiple threads here have shown everyone is split on Cassel and Orton but both sides agreeing that neither is really great. Orton has done well so far and if he has a big game against Tebow then I'm sure he will have a chance to be a started elsewhere. I have said this before, I don't think Orton would be willing to compete with Cassel in the offseason due to the fact he may not win the starting spot and with that said I think he will be looking for work with another team. Money wise I don't feel Pioli would be willing to keep both.

chief31
12-29-2011, 10:33 AM
But Chief I am not even talking about wins or losses here, i am just talking about cassel's play. Its been terrible in these circumstances the past 3 years

Well, good.

You came to this site with no intention but to trash Matt Cassel. I know that you will not be giving that up. Your mind was made up long ago.

I mean, you show up here , the day we get a big win with a good day at QB, for the first time since Matt got injured.

You didn't show up the previous weeks with a screenname of "My Man Palko" But I have no doubt that you would have, had Palko had a good game.

So, what is it you want from me?

You don't actually want me to explain how I witnessed a complete breakdown of blocking.

No. Since the blocking has been better the past few games, that is proof that it never happened.

You don't want me to explain how I was watching third and longs having run plays called.

No.

2nd and 23, two straight draw plays called?

Frequent o-line penalties putting us in those situations?

dropped passes?

You refuse to hear a word of it, unless it is to explain why the new guy didn't win Sunday.

He**, I doubt you even read this many words of this response that you requested.

Look..... It's real difficult to take you seriously, with that screenname, and having seen how you really feel....


I dont necessarily want Orton to be our franchise guy or even THE guy, I just want that Cassel out of town. And orton can be THAT guy, please oh please let him be THAT guy that gets cassel out

Do you know how foolish that looks? To name yourself after a player who has played one game, and acknowledge that you don't really think much of that guy?

You have one real sentiment here, and that is that Matt Cassel is so horrible that he can not be allowed to remain on the roster.

I disagree.