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View Full Version : The end all, be all Cassel/orton debate thread....



KCraised
12-27-2011, 10:56 PM
There are alot of little flare ups on this forums about the cassel haters and Orton haters. Both players have strengths and weaknesses. Lets hear peoples voices about a pro and con about both players. Let's see where it goes and let's respect the other and keep it civil! Bottom line, we are all Chiefs fans or we wouldn't hopefully be on this forum.....God help us.

Cassel pro: think he scrambles better than Orton
Cassel con: seems to panic under the first sign of pressure

Orton pro: Better downfield accuracy
Orton con: His inexperience with this Organization, compared to Cassel

Just getting the ball rolling. Lets see what happens and where it goes....

chief31
12-27-2011, 11:25 PM
My biggest pro for Cassel has to be the ability to get more out a situation than I would expect.

When Tom Brady went down in New England, the result was so different from what I expected. What I expected was something a whole lot closer to what The Colts have seen, without Peyton Manning this season.

And, when he came here, I gave him no chance to win ten games (even on an easy schedule) in his second year.

Then, this season, I fully expected a letdown from 2010, even before the player losses from injury. And yet, He did win four games in a row.

As for Kyle Orton......

He is the ultimate underdog in some ways.

The Bears thought he was such a horrible passer, that they could not trust him to throw the ball past ten yards.

And, though he led The Bears to the playoffs, with an 11-5 division title, they switched him out for their lone playoff game, and promptly lost at home.

Then, to go to Denver and have put up some very impressive passing statistics, only to get benched late in the year, and have the same thing happen the following season....

I think he has done his job, everywhere he has gone, and not been given an opportunity to be any team's long-term QB.

He and Matt have this one same character builder, that both have been shoved to the back of the bus a whole lot in their times in football.

I have seen both men do some extremely impressive things, in limited opportunity.

I would like to see either/both men have the chance to lead this team in 2012. I think this team is pretty close to being a serious contender. And it should be a good opportunity for whoever gets the nod.

KCraised
12-27-2011, 11:33 PM
Thanks for the great post, Chief31.
Very good points

matthewschiefs
12-27-2011, 11:46 PM
I live in bear country so I got to see Orton when he was on the Bears. He wasn't bad. But the Bears offense is not going to scare anyone. They are a team that is always led by there defense. Orton was decent while with the bears. He was decent with the donkeys. I recall a butt whipin he put on us a year ago. I never heard any talk of him being a problem in the locker room when he was on the bears. And According to Mich Holtus on kcchiefs.com he is well liked in our locker room. I think he could be a good leader for this team.

Matt Cassel has one thing that I have yet to see from orton. A fire in him. We have seen him all fired up after he gets a first down. I like that in him. I think that Cassel is a guy that needs a coach on his butt for him to play his best. We saw it last year. Haley would get on Cassel about something and that's when Cassel played better. We saw it in a game this year. When they got into it on the sideline Cassel went out and threw 3td passes. I think Cassel needs that. I hope that we get a OC or a QB coach that is going to do that if we are going to stick with Cassel.

I am fine with either Orton or cassel at Qb as long as we get them some O line help I think that either one could be a solid leader and a solid qb. You don't have to have a Great elite QB to win it all if you have a great running game like we could with Charles, Battle, Mccluster and a good to great defense. I think we could win a superbowl with either as long as we fill in the other remaining holes on this team.

jap1
12-28-2011, 12:11 AM
Cassel

Pros:

1. More mobility, "guts" and "fight" (he seems to always fight for an extra yard or two when he runs)
2. More leadership (he initiated the team workouts this summer, invited Baldwin to live with him until he got his own place)
3. Better timing with our WRs, and more accurate on short routes (most likely a result of familiarity)
4. Fire and motivation - he seems to get the O excited when he starts making big plays.
5. Very conservative with passes.

Cons:
1. Happy feet
2. Seems to hold onto the ball too long (although without watching game tape it is difficult to say whether people are actually open)

Orton

Pros:
1. Better deep ball
2. better pocket presence
3. Gets rid of the ball instead of taking a sack

Cons:
1. Not very mobile outside the pocket
2. Never seemed like a well respected team leader (could be because he has never been considered the long term answer)
3. Poor timing with our WRs (could be a result of inexperience on our team)

Overall, I think they are probably pretty equal. I agree with other posted that if either one will be fine IF we fill in the OL and other holes.

That having been said, I am AGAINST a QB competition. Pick one and stick with him. Having a clear #1 means the #1 QB will get closer to 60% of the snaps. If you have a competition, that means the two guys are going to be splitting reps probably 40% each, with the 3rd stringer (Stanzi) getting 20%, if not less.

A competition means the chemistry between QB and WR wont be as strong. Also, the person chosen as the number one would probably be constantly looking over his/her shoulder. People need motivation, but I dont think fear is a good motivator.

I cant remember the last team that had a QB competition in the offseason that ended up going to the playoffs. The offense wont have time to gel if you dont make a decision early and stick to it.

However the front office decides, I might grumble and complain a little bit, but in the end I will still be screaming for the Chiefs to win. I just hope if we ditch one of the other, we can get something for him, either through trade or compensatory picks.

Orton has been in too many QB competitions and probably would be annoyed to have to do it again.

tornadospotter
12-28-2011, 12:31 AM
I guess I must disagree with what I have read so far. I also think we need a true QB competition thru a full off season and training camp. I will be honest, I have not seen anything from Cassel that really inspires me to believe in him. Being a leader means also getting it done on the field of play. The thing that stands out the most to me, is the knocked down passes at the line of scrimmage, the passes thrown in a hard to catch for the reciever, the sense of that he plays scared or rushed to force a play, not make a play. Maybe it is the change at head coach, i do not know. But I say lets have two NFL experience QB compete for the starting position and go from there.

KCraised
12-28-2011, 12:35 AM
I live in bear country so I got to see Orton when he was on the Bears. He wasn't bad. But the Bears offense is not going to scare anyone. They are a team that is always led by there defense. Orton was decent while with the bears. He was decent with the donkeys. I recall a butt whipin he put on us a year ago. I never heard any talk of him being a problem in the locker room when he was on the bears. And According to Mich Holtus on kcchiefs.com he is well liked in our locker room. I think he could be a good leader for this team.

Matt Cassel has one thing that I have yet to see from orton. A fire in him. We have seen him all fired up after he gets a first down. I like that in him. I think that Cassel is a guy that needs a coach on his butt for him to play his best. We saw it last year. Haley would get on Cassel about something and that's when Cassel played better. We saw it in a game this year. When they got into it on the sideline Cassel went out and threw 3td passes. I think Cassel needs that. I hope that we get a OC or a QB coach that is going to do that if we are going to stick with Cassel.

I am fine with either Orton or cassel at Qb as long as we get them some O line help I think that either one could be a solid leader and a solid qb. You don't have to have a Great elite QB to win it all if you have a great running game like we could with Charles, Battle, Mccluster and a good to great defense. I think we could win a superbowl with either as long as we fill in the other remaining holes on this team.
I'm starting to agree with the mindset of having just an efficient QB. Like I said, Cassel would've been the difference in winning that Pittsburgh game so I definitely have confidence in his ability to run an offense effectively. When the defense is good, it sure allows a buffer for a mistake or 2 on offense. I'm seeing people point out his fire. I like emotion in the positive times and Cassel doing the 1st down signal gets us all into it. Orton has a calm demeanor. Don't know which I prefer on that.

KCraised
12-28-2011, 12:38 AM
I guess I must disagree with what I have read so far. I also think we need a true QB competition thru a full off season and training camp. I will be honest, I have not seen anything from Cassel that really inspires me to believe in him. Being a leader means also getting it done on the field of play. The thing that stands out the most to me, is the knocked down passes at the line of scrimmage, the passes thrown in a hard to catch for the reciever, the sense of that he plays scared or rushed to force a play, not make a play. Maybe it is the change at head coach, i do not know. But I say lets have two NFL experience QB compete for the starting position and go from there.
I lean for the competition. But everybody has some damned good points and angles on things!

Bike
12-28-2011, 12:55 AM
It is obvious to me that Orton is the better skilled player at qb than Cassel. And if Orton is considered "average" at this position, whats that make Cassel? Below average? I got a feeling that Pioli will find a way to cut ties with Cassel this off season.

KCraised
12-28-2011, 01:13 AM
It is obvious to me that Orton is the better skilled player at qb than Cassel. And if Orton is considered "average" at this position, whats that make Cassel? Below average? I got a feeling that Pioli will find a way to cut ties with Cassel this off season.

What are some of the things that set both qbs apart, in your opinion? Good and bad?

Bike
12-28-2011, 01:24 AM
What are some of the things that set both qbs apart, in your opinion? Good and bad?
Orton can see the field better - he spreads the ball out, he looks off recievers, and is more accurate. Just a better skilled player. Cassel has a lot of heart and plays balls out - but that doesn't really improve his skillset IMO. I like Cassel for the above reasons - he is a determined player. But determination will only get you so far in the NFL.

tornadospotter
12-28-2011, 01:33 AM
What are some of the things that set both qbs apart, in your opinion? Good and bad?
It is hard for me to say, I watched the GB game, but had to work and did not see the raider game. I can say that I liked how Kyle led the offense, in the GB game, for his first start as a Chief, and being new to the team, HC fired, so new HC interim in charge, he simply preformed. His passes where on target and things worked. Sunday will tell me more, I will get to watch this game. It may be just the fact of the change in the HC, I do not know. But I think we need to find out, bring them both into a open competition for the job, and draft a QB this coming draft, then all four qb's can win or loss the job.

KCraised
12-28-2011, 01:36 AM
Orton can see the field better - he spreads the ball out, he looks off recievers, and is more accurate. Just a better skilled player. Cassel has a lot of heart and plays balls out - but that doesn't really improve his skillset IMO. I like Cassel for the above reasons - he is a determined player. But determination will only get you so far in the NFL.

Great follow up, Bike

N TX Dave
12-28-2011, 01:47 AM
From my limited observation of Orton it seems to me that he can get 1st downs a lot more constantly than Cassel. What % of 3 and outs did Orton have compared to Cassel with basically the same team? When it is 3rd and 8 Orton throws it 9 yards where Cassell dumps it off 4 yards and hopes the receiver can pick up the other 4 yards. At least that is my opinion.

2010chiefs
12-28-2011, 02:00 AM
From my limited observation of Orton it seems to me that he can get 1st downs a lot more constantly than Cassel. What % of 3 and outs did Orton have compared to Cassel with basically the same team? When it is 3rd and 8 Orton throws it 9 yards where Cassell dumps it off 4 yards and hopes the receiver can pick up the other 4 yards. At least that is my opinion.


What he said^^^ and

Cassel needs a ton of time to make a play or gets sacked.

Orton scans the field and makes quick decisions.

Cassel cannot lead you down the field when we're down.

Orton proved he can do that when he got us in field goal range on Saturday with less 1 min remaining.

jap1
12-28-2011, 04:10 AM
I know this isnt supposed to be too much of an argument against each other, but I wanted to bring up a few points. Granted these are my opinions, and feel free to disagree.

First, I disagree with the comments that Cassel was playing with the same team as Orton has been. While the players have been the same, the playcalling has seemed much different the last two weeks. Also, the players have seemed more motivated as well.

I dont mean to sound like I love Cassel, but I really do think they are very equal. Either one of them is better at some things than the other. I think with good coaching, both of them could have a very high ceiling.

KCraised
12-28-2011, 04:36 AM
I know this isnt supposed to be too much of an argument against each other, but I wanted to bring up a few points. Granted these are my opinions, and feel free to disagree.

First, I disagree with the comments that Cassel was playing with the same team as Orton has been. While the players have been the same, the playcalling has seemed much different the last two weeks. Also, the players have seemed more motivated as well.

I dont mean to sound like I love Cassel, but I really do think they are very equal. Either one of them is better at some things than the other. I think with good coaching, both of them could have a very high ceiling.

Its still good input, regardless. Your statements are vrery valid. There are alot of different members that have posted and every single one has alot of substance to them. A good civil thread where every opinion is as important as the other. It does seem to favor Orton at this point, but I have to admit that the Cassel situation without Haley does seem interesting. It would help put the question to rest about would he have performed better under another HC.

Eydugstr
12-28-2011, 09:07 AM
I know this isnt supposed to be too much of an argument against each other, but I wanted to bring up a few points. Granted these are my opinions, and feel free to disagree.

First, I disagree with the comments that Cassel was playing with the same team as Orton has been. While the players have been the same, the playcalling has seemed much different the last two weeks. Also, the players have seemed more motivated as well.

I dont mean to sound like I love Cassel, but I really do think they are very equal. Either one of them is better at some things than the other. I think with good coaching, both of them could have a very high ceiling.


Its still good input, regardless. Your statements are vrery valid. There are alot of different members that have posted and every single one has alot of substance to them. A good civil thread where every opinion is as important as the other. It does seem to favor Orton at this point, but I have to admit that the Cassel situation without Haley does seem interesting. It would help put the question to rest about would he have performed better under another HC.

These are valid points. Would really like to see what either QB could do behind a better O-line and a stable HC (Cassel always had to contend with Haley, as did the many oc's that have come through KC). Orton is a better pure passer, Cassel's better in the red zone.

If it were up to me, if we couldn't snag a top notch qb in the first round, I'd sign both for next season just to keep some depth at QB, as well as some competition. Let Stanzi learn behind those two. And figure out a way to keep Jim Zorn as qb coach for another season.

:chiefs:

pojote
12-28-2011, 09:18 AM
Cassel: under contract

Orton: free agent

azchiefsfan
12-28-2011, 11:07 AM
This is why we have camps and tryouts. I like Cassel and know he can throw very well and doesn't get the turnover-itis very often. He can help a team win and generally will do what it takes to win. He is not, however, a field general. He will follow orders and make the play happen as called. So he needs a good OC to call plays. That ain't a bad thing, it's just his style. So when the calls are good and the rest of the team is on the same page, they can roll like a well-oiled machine. When the calls are bad or the receivers aren't in sync, it goes horribly wrong. I think of Cassel like a surgeon. He can do amazing things, but it has to be by the book. Orton wants to chuck that rock as far down the field as the receivers can get. He uses the plays as a general guidline where to look, but seems to always be looking down field to make something happen and can launch the ball like a V2 rocket. Where Cassel is analytical and calculated almost to a fault, Orton is a gun-slinger. He is unafraid to launch one and let the receivers fight for it. Sometimes that means 300+ yards and 4 td's and sometimes 100 yards and 4 int's. This tendency means that you have to have crazy-skilled receivers and an OL that allows these long plays to develop because he ain't mobile. So really, the big question for our teams management is do you want to build the team around a Favre-esque airballer or do we build the team for a machine-precision short game attack. We are built for the latter, but with Bowe and Breaston, it wouldn't be hard to transition to the former.

pojote
12-28-2011, 11:27 AM
This is why we have camps and tryouts. I like Cassel and know he can throw very well and doesn't get the turnover-itis very often. He can help a team win and generally will do what it takes to win. He is not, however, a field general. He will follow orders and make the play happen as called. So he needs a good OC to call plays. That ain't a bad thing, it's just his style. So when the calls are good and the rest of the team is on the same page, they can roll like a well-oiled machine. When the calls are bad or the receivers aren't in sync, it goes horribly wrong. I think of Cassel like a surgeon. He can do amazing things, but it has to be by the book. Orton wants to chuck that rock as far down the field as the receivers can get. He uses the plays as a general guidline where to look, but seems to always be looking down field to make something happen and can launch the ball like a V2 rocket. Where Cassel is analytical and calculated almost to a fault, Orton is a gun-slinger. He is unafraid to launch one and let the receivers fight for it. Sometimes that means 300+ yards and 4 td's and sometimes 100 yards and 4 int's. This tendency means that you have to have crazy-skilled receivers and an OL that allows these long plays to develop because he ain't mobile. So really, the big question for our teams management is do you want to build the team around a Favre-esque airballer or do we build the team for a machine-precision short game attack. We are built for the latter, but with Bowe and Breaston, it wouldn't be hard to transition to the former.

Best analysis to this subject!!!
:thumbup1:

70 chiefsfan70
12-28-2011, 01:04 PM
This is why we have camps and tryouts. I like Cassel and know he can throw very well and doesn't get the turnover-itis very often. He can help a team win and generally will do what it takes to win. He is not, however, a field general. He will follow orders and make the play happen as called. So he needs a good OC to call plays. That ain't a bad thing, it's just his style. So when the calls are good and the rest of the team is on the same page, they can roll like a well-oiled machine. When the calls are bad or the receivers aren't in sync, it goes horribly wrong. I think of Cassel like a surgeon. He can do amazing things, but it has to be by the book. Orton wants to chuck that rock as far down the field as the receivers can get. He uses the plays as a general guidline where to look, but seems to always be looking down field to make something happen and can launch the ball like a V2 rocket. Where Cassel is analytical and calculated almost to a fault, Orton is a gun-slinger. He is unafraid to launch one and let the receivers fight for it. Sometimes that means 300+ yards and 4 td's and sometimes 100 yards and 4 int's. This tendency means that you have to have crazy-skilled receivers and an OL that allows these long plays to develop because he ain't mobile. So really, the big question for our teams management is do you want to build the team around a Favre-esque airballer or do we build the team for a machine-precision short game attack. We are built for the latter, but with Bowe and Breaston, it wouldn't be hard to transition to the former.


Well said.

I like the idea of signing Orton and letting him compete with Cassel, along with a first or second round draft pick.

Obviously Orton is not signed and may not sign. Even if he does sign I don't see him being TQBOTF.

Orton seems to be the better QB for the Chiefs because he is a deep threat and would also help the run game. And as everyone has seen he makes the OL look much better.

If we do draft a QBOTF we would be in a good position to trade Cassel or Orton (if we sign him) for what ever need we still have come preseason.

Jrudi
12-28-2011, 01:38 PM
I've been torn on this topic as well....

At first I wanted to target RG3 in the Draft...but now Barkely is returning to USC, which will more than likely not allow us to be in a position to draft a QB worthy of a 1st round pick.

Orton's Pros:
- Gunslinger mentality. isn't affraid to wing it, but can get you into trouble, and equate to turnovers.

- Has nothing to loose.. the guy has never had an organization back him, so he literally has nothing to loose. But sometimes the guys with nothing to loose, never replicate the production they did when they were trying to prove something.

Cons:
- Just not a leader... I haven't seen enough from this guy to show me that he possesses that "it" factor that I think QB's need to have.
- Journeyman... Not familiar with the KC system, or locker room. Has never been looked at as a franchise guy, so has had to move around.

To tell you the truth, all that I have listed about Orton, could be considered Con's.

So I looked at Cassel:

Pros:
- Dude is a leader... As mentioned before, and this was the main reason I liked the guy. He is fiery, and even if he is out, he is involved in the game. Even though we haven't seen him carry the load on many 4th QTR drives, there is no doubt in my mind that he could get this team motivated to pull out a win when it mattered.

- Familiarity with WR's, The System, and "The Chiefs Way". Familiarity and Consistency go a long way in the NFL, and I think this is beneficial that he knows his way around the system and the locker room.

Cons:
- Happy Feet... Not sure what happened here, last year he avoided sacks by moving up in the pocket, and throwing balls away instead of taking a sack. Minimized turnovers, and just wasn't afraid to get rid of the ball when he felt pressure. Not so much this year, and I think Haley had some sort of affect on this area of his game (fear maybe??).

- Take's too much time... This year it seems he had fallen back into taking to much time to make his decisions. Multiple times I would see him start to throw, stop, turn to another receiver, and then panic and take a sack. Last year, he had a quicker release, and it drastically improved his turnover ratio's and sack ratio's.

The Question:
- I look at what he did in New England, and what he did last year (With Wiess). I hear the talk about Haley being the Micro-manager, and how the play calling system this year was just completely a mess. With that information it made me wonder if Haley didn't have a negative affect on Cassel's play, I get the idea that Haley was breathing down his neck at all times, and not giving him clear to the point game plans, not giving him the proper materials to prepare with, and I think to myself, I wonder what he could do without him??? After seeing how our offense has moved the ball without him there (regardless of the fact that it was Orton under center) I hear the positive feedback from Muir about how much smoother things are going and I think to myself, I might want to see him get another chance next year with an OC similar to Weiss, and see if he can re-produce the 2010 seasons play again. Draft a QB in rounds 2-3 to succeed him if he doesn't replicate it. But I', thinking one more shot.

So my proposal (even after I wanted to Draft a QB in round 1)

I would like to see what Cassel can do with a new HC, and a good OC. I think he can lead this team with the proper pieces in place above him and a clear mission statement given to him. I also think it will be harder to trade Cassel (due to his contract, and not being able to trade players for picks) So I look to slap a 2nd or 3rd round tender on Orton in hopes that he signs elsewhere, and we gain compensation. With the compensation we gain from Orton, I think we draft a QB in rounds 2-3 (Lets say Tannehill) for the future and allow Stanzi and the draft choice to compete for the spot to succeed Cassel if he does not work out.

If Stanzi still doesn't seem like he is going to work out byt he beginning of next season, we cut ties after training camp, and sign a veteran to backup Cassel in case of injury, and allow the draft choice to learn.

Thoughts??

KCraised
12-28-2011, 03:25 PM
Man, this is some of the best in depth analysis i've seen on this debate. Alot of great information and food for thought. Some football saavy people on here, for sure

TopekaRoy
12-28-2011, 04:13 PM
Man, this is some of the best in depth analysis i've seen on this debate. Alot of great information and food for thought. Some football saavy people on here, for sure
Agreed. Excellent thread.


I've been torn on this topic as well....

Great post and I just wnat to comment on a small part of it. ...


So I looked at Cassel:
...
Cons:
- Happy Feet... Not sure what happened here, last year he avoided sacks by moving up in the pocket, and throwing balls away instead of taking a sack. Minimized turnovers, and just wasn't afraid to get rid of the ball when he felt pressure. Not so much this year, and I think Haley had some sort of affect on this area of his game (fear maybe??).

- Take's too much time... This year it seems he had fallen back into taking to much time to make his decisions. Multiple times I would see him start to throw, stop, turn to another receiver, and then panic and take a sack. Last year, he had a quicker release, and it drastically improved his turnover ratio's and sack ratio's.


I wonder how much of an effect losing Jamaal Charles has had in this regard. Last year, Cassel knew that if the pass wasn't there, he could just throw the ball away and count on Charles to routinely get 6 or 7 yards on the next play leaving a short 3rd down conversion. Without that strong running game I think Matt felt like he had to make a play and was under more pressure to complete a pass. He tried to wait longer for a receiver to get open and when it didn't happen fast enough he would take a sack or try to tuck the ball and run.

So why isn't this happening with Orton? Many are saying the play calling is different, but I think there is another reason. Kyle makes faster reads and gets the ball out to receivers more quickly. His high completion rate has forced the defense to respect the pass and as a result the Chiefs have been running the ball better - for 139 yds vs Green bay and 135 yds vs. Oakland.

Where Cassel relied on the run game to soften up pass coverage, Orton has been using the passing game to soften up run coverage.

Conclusion? With a more limited run game, this year, Orton is the better QB for this team right now, but with Charles back, Cassel may return to his 2010 form and be just as effective in next year's offense as Orton would be.

Maybe.

Just thinking out loud ...

on virtual paper ...

okikcfan
12-28-2011, 04:36 PM
Wow, Great thread gentlemen! Very well done!

okikcfan
12-28-2011, 04:54 PM
Bad news folks, Jackie Battle is apparently in a walking boot, according to interim head coach Romeo Crennel, per the bleacher report.

Jrudi
12-28-2011, 05:03 PM
Agree with the idea of the run game having an effect on Cassel's play as well.

The way I saw it after Cassel got injured was that our biggest need on this team was talent at the QB position. I wanted to draft a qb in round 1, and look to improve the O-line in rounds 2-5 and through FA.

Since then, Barkely has returned to school and I retracted my idea, because I didn't feel we would be in a position to take a QB worthy of a 1st round pick, that would be better than Cassel would be in the same situation.

So with the situation that we are now in, I like the idea of giving Cassel 1 more year (which I think he only has 1-2 years left on his contract) to work with Zorn (the way he wants to work with him, no Haley) a good OC, and a better running game.

I think it would be more beneficial to this team as it is right now, to offer him that chance, and improve the O-line, and depth at other positions.

I think that consistency will be good for this team, and if we were to reach for a QB like Landry Jones, it will set us back another couple of years, and cause us to re-focus on competing in 2-3 years rather than next year (which Cassel should allow us to do).

AkChief49
12-28-2011, 07:00 PM
Orton can see the field better - he spreads the ball out, he looks off recievers, and is more accurate. Just a better skilled player. Cassel has a lot of heart and plays balls out - but that doesn't really improve his skillset IMO. I like Cassel for the above reasons - he is a determined player. But determination will only get you so far in the NFL.

This about says it for me. I think Orton's receiver progression is better also. I've always liked Cassel's fire. With a good line he would be a pro bowler again.



This is why we have camps and tryouts. I like Cassel and know he can throw very well and doesn't get the turnover-itis very often. He can help a team win and generally will do what it takes to win. He is not, however, a field general. He will follow orders and make the play happen as called. So he needs a good OC to call plays. That ain't a bad thing, it's just his style. So when the calls are good and the rest of the team is on the same page, they can roll like a well-oiled machine. When the calls are bad or the receivers aren't in sync, it goes horribly wrong. I think of Cassel like a surgeon. He can do amazing things, but it has to be by the book. Orton wants to chuck that rock as far down the field as the receivers can get. He uses the plays as a general guidline where to look, but seems to always be looking down field to make something happen and can launch the ball like a V2 rocket. Where Cassel is analytical and calculated almost to a fault, Orton is a gun-slinger. He is unafraid to launch one and let the receivers fight for it. Sometimes that means 300+ yards and 4 td's and sometimes 100 yards and 4 int's. This tendency means that you have to have crazy-skilled receivers and an OL that allows these long plays to develop because he ain't mobile. So really, the big question for our teams management is do you want to build the team around a Favre-esque airballer or do we build the team for a machine-precision short game attack. We are built for the latter, but with Bowe and Breaston, it wouldn't be hard to transition to the former.


Nice analysis azchief, the one point in bold to me is one of his cons. The QB should be able to see the field and call audibles accordingly. Maybe Cassel has been on a short leash with Haley and has not been able to. (I do not get to see a lot of the games living up here so maybe I'm full of it)But the ability (and freedom) to read the D and adjust on the fly is what separates the Brady's and the Mannings, Brees from the rest.

The last time we were in the big show, it was with a field General.

jap1
12-28-2011, 07:15 PM
This is why we have camps and tryouts. I like Cassel and know he can throw very well and doesn't get the turnover-itis very often. He can help a team win and generally will do what it takes to win. He is not, however, a field general. He will follow orders and make the play happen as called. So he needs a good OC to call plays. That ain't a bad thing, it's just his style. So when the calls are good and the rest of the team is on the same page, they can roll like a well-oiled machine. When the calls are bad or the receivers aren't in sync, it goes horribly wrong. I think of Cassel like a surgeon. He can do amazing things, but it has to be by the book. Orton wants to chuck that rock as far down the field as the receivers can get. He uses the plays as a general guidline where to look, but seems to always be looking down field to make something happen and can launch the ball like a V2 rocket. Where Cassel is analytical and calculated almost to a fault, Orton is a gun-slinger. He is unafraid to launch one and let the receivers fight for it. Sometimes that means 300+ yards and 4 td's and sometimes 100 yards and 4 int's. This tendency means that you have to have crazy-skilled receivers and an OL that allows these long plays to develop because he ain't mobile. So really, the big question for our teams management is do you want to build the team around a Favre-esque airballer or do we build the team for a machine-precision short game attack. We are built for the latter, but with Bowe and Breaston, it wouldn't be hard to transition to the former.

Great post and analysis. Only one complaint, I take offense to the surgeon analysis ... as a surgeon, I have yet to see the inside of a body look anything like they do in the books!!! If they looked like they did in the books, then I wouldnt need to operate on them!!! j/k

I get what you are trying to say though, just giving you a hard time.

I am glad to see that I am not the only one who is on the fence and feels like we could go either way.

jap1
12-28-2011, 07:18 PM
One other point I would like to bring up. Even if one of the QBs did somehow fall to us in the 1st round, I am a little torn on whether or not to take one. I think we are very close to competing next year. When was the last time a rookie QB took a team to the Superbowl? I think we have a better chance with an average/above average QB (Orton or Cassel) than with a rookie who will take a couple years to get their bearings on the game speed in the NFL.

azchiefsfan
12-28-2011, 07:30 PM
I was trying to be fair and I am hoping his decision-making and ability to open up his game can improve without Haley's leash around his neck. I think he can, but for 3 years all we've seen is a system QB. He is good, don't get me wrong, but he is going to have to be more than that to get us where we want to go. It's time for Air Cassel.:lol:

2010chiefs
12-28-2011, 09:12 PM
It seems everyones believes Cassel deserves another chance due to Hailey's departure. With different play calling, and Hailey out of the mix he might do better. I agree he deserves a chance with different play calling, however I also want to see Romeo or whoever our coach is next year pull him out of the game if it's the same Cassel we seen this year.

How bad must he be before you replace him with Orton?

N TX Dave
12-29-2011, 03:12 AM
It seems everyones believes Cassel deserves another chance due to Hailey's departure. With different play calling, and Hailey out of the mix he might do better. I agree he deserves a chance with different play calling, however I also want to see Romeo or whoever our coach is next year pull him out of the game if it's the same Cassel we seen this year.

How bad must he be before you replace him with Orton?

That is assuming we keep Orton he is a free agent after the year.

KCraised
12-29-2011, 04:35 AM
That is assuming we keep Orton he is a free agent after the year.

I would say Orton's future with the Chiefs depends on how well he plays in Denver. Need to see redzone improvement. And seeings how this game is a revenge game for him, you are going to see him put up some numbers. Just my guess...

chief31
12-29-2011, 12:09 PM
I would say Orton's future with the Chiefs depends on how well he plays in Denver. Need to see redzone improvement. And seeings how this game is a revenge game for him, you are going to see him put up some numbers. Just my guess...

I think the biggest factor for an possble QB in KC is primarily dependent upon Pioli's deciision for our next HC.

But yeah, Orton playing well for another game would be big.

okikcfan
12-29-2011, 01:27 PM
I would say Orton's future with the Chiefs depends on how well he plays in Denver. Need to see redzone improvement. And seeings how this game is a revenge game for him, you are going to see him put up some numbers. Just my guess...

Lets hope so, but if he does do well that will open up his employment op"s. I don't think he will be here next year.:chiefs:

TopekaRoy
12-29-2011, 07:21 PM
That is assuming we keep Orton he is a free agent after the year.
He is a restricted free agent, so if another team wants him they have to be the highest bidder and give up a high draft pick.

Her's the thing, though. In most cases that draft pick would be enough to keep other teams from signing a player. It's too costly. But if Orton doesn't want to stay in KC it's very possible that he would take less money to guarantee that he can start elsewhere.

on the other hand, I think Kyle is just ****y enough that he would sincerely believe he can beat out Cassel for the starting job if he stayed. (See how I got around the swear filter, there? :D) especially if he has a good game in Denver. His team mates are playing hard for him, the coaches seem to like him and he is a good fit for this offense.

Cassel shouldn't lose his job as the starter because of injury, but I don't see any reason why he can't compete for it.

If the Chiefs sign Orton, does that mean the Cassel's days in KC are numbered? Not necessarily. We saw this year, how important a good veteran back-up QB is to this team. Either guy would make an excellent back-up. It may not be what they want and it's not likely to happen, but I think it would be worth the money to the Chiefs to keep them both. We could continue to develop Stanzi without having to sell out the team for an "elite" QB and without the fear that a QB injury would devastate the team.

I don't see it happening. It might not be the best situation for Cassel, or Orton, but it would be great for the Chiefs.

#58ChiefsFan
12-29-2011, 07:38 PM
I want a ****y quarterback like you described.

Though it's not entirely Ortons fault we haven't been able to finish drives I almost believe if we had a high red zone efficiency with him he could have Wally Pipped Cassel.

70 chiefsfan70
12-29-2011, 10:39 PM
He is a restricted free agent, so if another team wants him they have to be the highest bidder and give up a high draft pick.

Her's the thing, though. In most cases that draft pick would be enough to keep other teams from signing a player. It's too costly. But if Orton doesn't want to stay in KC it's very possible that he would take less money to guarantee that he can start elsewhere.

on the other hand, I think Kyle is just ****y enough that he would sincerely believe he can beat out Cassel for the starting job if he stayed. (See how I got around the swear filter, there? :D) especially if he has a good game in Denver. His team mates are playing hard for him, the coaches seem to like him and he is a good fit for this offense.

Cassel shouldn't lose his job as the starter because of injury, but I don't see any reason why he can't compete for it.

If the Chiefs sign Orton, does that mean the Cassel's days in KC are numbered? Not necessarily. We saw this year, how important a good veteran back-up QB is to this team. Either guy would make an excellent back-up. It may not be what they want and it's not likely to happen, but I think it would be worth the money to the Chiefs to keep them both. We could continue to develop Stanzi without having to sell out the team for an "elite" QB and without the fear that a QB injury would devastate the team.

I don't see it happening. It might not be the best situation for Cassel, or Orton, but it would be great for the Chiefs.


I agree with you, I'd like to see the Chiefs sign Orton and let him, Cassel, Stanzi, and a new draft pick compete for the starting job. If the new pick or Stanzi do well, I'd then trade either Orton or Cassel for a second? possible third 2013 pick.


ps...I really believe Orton is better for the chiefs team, as he clearly makes the OL look better and I'm sure a healthy JC would make them look even better. Even the Wrs suddenly seem to be running their routes better.
I like competition.

nigeriannightmare
12-30-2011, 10:20 AM
Just please no matt cassel. Please god. Chief 31 i beg of you, you are a pioli supporter, he must know this! Call him up and demand cassel be cut! For the love of god! I cant take any more flat passes! I cant take any more 2 yd completions! AGGGHGHGGH

Nope we are gonna make his wife director of pro personel and hire anyone that is tied to the cassel family tree. Then when hes retired as a chief hell become the coach/gm.

So the then i guess u dont like bill walsh and joe montana who won 4 superbowls. They made a living on short passes.

Jrudi
12-30-2011, 11:31 AM
I agree with you, I'd like to see the Chiefs sign Orton and let him, Cassel, Stanzi, and a new draft pick compete for the starting job. If the new pick or Stanzi do well, I'd then trade either Orton or Cassel for a second? possible third 2013 pick.


ps...I really believe Orton is better for the chiefs team, as he clearly makes the OL look better and I'm sure a healthy JC would make them look even better. Even the Wrs suddenly seem to be running their routes better.
I like competition.

The only thing I don't like about this is that I would really like to see us make some sort of decision before the draft instead of taking all 4 qbs to camp (assuming we draft another QB)

I would rather see us gain the compensation (Draft Picks) for THIS YEARS draft rather than waiting until training camp and grabbing next year's picks.

I would think the VALUE of each player would be higher prior to this years draft or we could receive better compensation for each player because if we wait until training camp, most teams have already addressed their needs as far as their starters go, And we would basically be saying " hey, we took these guys to camp, and the other QB we are keeping is better than this guy, so we're putting him on the trade block" Not a very desirable sales pitch if you ask me.

I think if we look to move one prior to the draft, they could be worth anywhere from a 2nd-3rd, if we wait until training camp, I think it moves it back to a 3rd-4th.

KCraised
12-30-2011, 01:40 PM
Interesting article on Arrowhead Pride about Cassel vs. orton. If you haven't read it, check it out.

TopekaRoy
12-30-2011, 01:45 PM
Interesting article on Arrowhead Pride about Cassel vs. orton. If you haven't read it, check it out.
How 'bout posting a link? :D

TopekaRoy
12-30-2011, 01:54 PM
I would think the VALUE of each player would be higher prior to this years draft or we could receive better compensation for each player because if we wait until training camp, most teams have already addressed their needs as far as their starters go, And we would basically be saying " hey, we took these guys to camp, and the other QB we are keeping is better than this guy, so we're putting him on the trade block" Not a very desirable sales pitch if you ask me.

I think if we look to move one prior to the draft, they could be worth anywhere from a 2nd-3rd, if we wait until training camp, I think it moves it back to a 3rd-4th.
You make a very good point, but isn't it also possible that some teams will have greater need for a QB at the conclusion of training camp? Maybe a starter gets hurt or a backup on another team looks really bad. Then that team becomes more desperate to pick up a QB and Orton or Cassel could become more valuable.

I think it is worth the risk of losing some value to make sure we keep the right guy. Orton hasn't had enough time to show what he can do with this team, and neither QB has had a chance to work with whoever the new coaching staff will be.

It's all about doing what's best for the team and there are advantages and disadvantages whichever way they go. A new HC might not want any of our current QBs, but I would like to see them get a chance to work with the new staff.

Jrudi
12-30-2011, 02:12 PM
You make a very good point, but isn't it also possible that some teams will have greater need for a QB at the conclusion of training camp? Maybe a starter gets hurt or a backup on another team looks really bad. Then that team becomes more desperate to pick up a QB and Orton or Cassel could become more valuable.

I think it is worth the risk of losing some value to make sure we keep the right guy. Orton hasn't had enough time to show what he can do with this team, and neither QB has had a chance to work with whoever the new coaching staff will be.

It's all about doing what's best for the team and there are advantages and disadvantages whichever way they go. A new HC might not want any of our current QBs, but I would like to see them get a chance to work with the new staff.

With this scenario, your banking on a "possibility" so it might not happen. Like you said it's a risk that might not pay off, or might pay off better.

I don't know, there's lots of scenario's that can take place, I just think that whoever the new HC is, they need to come in and decide fairly quickly what they are going to do about the QB position, there has never been a team that I have seen do well with a QB competition.

Just like Romeo came in right away and said "we're going with Orton if he's healthy" It allows the team to prepare and know who their leader is going to be on Sundays.

The QB position garners the most need for stability and reps throughout practice, and splitting reps, or playing with someone looking over you shoulder could have a negative effect on our team.

TopekaRoy
12-30-2011, 02:26 PM
With this scenario, your banking on a "possibility" so it might not happen. Like you said it's a risk that might not pay off, or might pay off better.

I don't know, there's lots of scenario's that can take place, I just think that whoever the new HC is, they need to come in and decide fairly quickly what they are going to do about the QB position, there has never been a team that I have seen do well with a QB competition.

Just like Romeo came in right away and said "we're going with Orton if he's healthy" It allows the team to prepare and know who their leader is going to be on Sundays.

The QB position garners the most need for stability and reps throughout practice, and splitting reps, or playing with someone looking over you shoulder could have a negative effect on our team.
Yeah, there's a lot of uncertainty surrounding the team right now and I'm sure every move will be 2nd guessed ad nauseum.

I completely agree with you that having a QB controversy can hurt a team during the regular season, but I think competition at the position can be a very good thing during training camp. And I don't think that having a very good back-up is the same thing as a QB controversy as long as a firm decision is made on who the starter is before the regular season begins, and the coach sticks with that decision unless the starter plays badly.

It will be a very interesting off season, to say the least.

okikcfan
12-30-2011, 02:59 PM
A few weeks ago I was on 610 Sports with Danny Parkins and he asked me which quarterback I thought the Kansas City Chiefs should bring back next year -- Matt Cassel or Kyle Orton. My answer was both of them. Why not stack the most important position in sports with as much talent as possible?

As it turns out, an Orton vs. Cassel training camp battle is indeed possible next year. Michael Lombardi of NFL.com reports that the Chiefs "will make an effort to sign [Orton] this offseason" and have him compete with Cassel next year.



Chiefs interim coach Romeo Crennel certainly sounded open to the possibility when asked a couple weeks ago about Orton's chances of sticking with the Chiefs beyond this season.

The question is whether Orton wants to return to KC. Reasons not to come back would be A.) more money elsewhere and/or B.) better opportunity elsewhere.

The Chiefs have the capability, as far as the salary cap is concerned, to throw a competitive offer at him. And it'll be interesting to see what kind of offers Orton has this offseason, and whether beating out Cassel in KC may be his best shot at a starting job.

So this tells us that this Week 17 game has a lot of importance. Orton will only play in three games for the Chiefs this year so every game on which you can evaluate him is an important one.

KCraised
12-30-2011, 03:04 PM
How 'bout posting a link? :D

Thought everybody knew the site;-P

An Exhaustively Dorky Comparison Of Kyle Orton And Matt*Cassel - Arrowhead Pride (http://mobile.arrowheadpride.com/2011/12/29/2669419/an-exhaustively-dorky-comparison-of-orton-and-cassel)

KCraised
12-30-2011, 03:05 PM
Yeah, saw they want to bring Orton back in 12'

okikcfan
12-30-2011, 03:32 PM
A few weeks ago I was on 610 Sports with Danny Parkins and he asked me which quarterback I thought the Kansas City Chiefs should bring back next year -- Matt Cassel or Kyle Orton. My answer was both of them. Why not stack the most important position in sports with as much talent as possible?

As it turns out, an Orton vs. Cassel training camp battle is indeed possible next year. Michael Lombardi of NFL.com reports that the Chiefs "will make an effort to sign [Orton] this offseason" and have him compete with Cassel next year.



Chiefs interim coach Romeo Crennel certainly sounded open to the possibility when asked a couple weeks ago about Orton's chances of sticking with the Chiefs beyond this season.

The question is whether Orton wants to return to KC. Reasons not to come back would be A.) more money elsewhere and/or B.) better opportunity elsewhere.

The Chiefs have the capability, as far as the salary cap is concerned, to throw a competitive offer at him. And it'll be interesting to see what kind of offers Orton has this offseason, and whether beating out Cassel in KC may be his best shot at a starting job.

So this tells us that this Week 17 game has a lot of importance. Orton will only play in three games for the Chiefs this year so every game on which you can evaluate him is an important one.

ooop's my bad wrong one I guess.

TopekaRoy
12-30-2011, 03:36 PM
Thought everybody knew the site;-P

An Exhaustively Dorky Comparison Of Kyle Orton And Matt*Cassel - Arrowhead Pride (http://mobile.arrowheadpride.com/2011/12/29/2669419/an-exhaustively-dorky-comparison-of-orton-and-cassel)
Yeah, but I'm too lazy to type in the url and look for the article (if it;s not on the first page.)

Thanks :D

KCraised
12-30-2011, 03:49 PM
I know t feeling...lol

Notta problem:)

jap1
12-30-2011, 07:44 PM
With Barkley coming back to school, and possibly RG3, then whichever QB we currently have becomes much more valuable to teams like the Redskins, Seattle, Miami, Cleveland and Jax.