PDA

View Full Version : Look for a QB or O-line?



ctchiefsfan
01-03-2012, 03:12 PM
In another thread the following statement was made.....


I hear what you're saying, but still believe that the O-line needs to be addressed first. I think that the best QB in the world behind a mediocre front line will, himself, look mediocre or worse. However, even a QB with marginal talent can be successful behind a good O-line.

And that really focussed my mind on the whole issue Cassel vs Orton and what kind of QB we need to run our offense.

We saw last year that Cassel can make a perfectly acceptable QB in a run oriented offense. I think we also saw that when we get into a game where the opponent's defense shuts down our running game Cassel does not seem to be the kind of gunslinger that goes out and saves your butt.

In the GB game Orton appeared more comfortable than Cassel would be in a situation where the QB was expected to be the primary means of moving the ball.

In the Raider game when it came time for that last minute drive to try to break the tie Orton again appeared to be more comfortable in a situation where the game was riding on his arm.

Call it the "game manager" vs the "gunslinger".....

And this provoked a question in my mind.....assuming we will continue to be a run oriented team on offense, and that we'll make some serious effort in the off season to upgrade our O-Line, would we be better served by a "game manager" at QB or by a "gunslinger"?

Like to hear your alls thoughts on the philosophy of what kind of QB will be better to have behind center next year and why?

marloweopatchiefs
01-03-2012, 03:21 PM
a gunslinger. It gets old watching cassel panic when the game is on the line.

70 chiefsfan70
01-03-2012, 03:42 PM
I wrote this in the other forumn.............



I agree, headcoach first, O Line needs help, but so does QB. Oline will be easier to fix then QB.

Its very iffy that Orton will sign and even less likely the Chiefs would give him the money he will want. I'm thinking his value has gone up since there seems to be a high demand for QB's this year and less good quality high expectoncy qbs in the draft. (I hope he does sign, competition is good)

Cassel makes the OL look even worse and it seems he has lost the players respect. Maybe that will change now that Haley is no longer calling the plays. We do know however that he can start and win games if we have a good run game.

Sadly we don't know what Stanzi can do, guess Haley could not find a time when it seemed right to start him..............This really hurts because now its unknown what he is capable of. It would be nice to know if hes able to take the # 2 or 3 spot. It sucks finding out the hard way...............

I take it Palko has officially used up his welcome in any nfl game again. Just my guess.


added: I also think it will be much easier to get a starting RT or C/G in the FA. Therefore I think we should do some fancy trading and get the best availible QB sometime in the first two rounds.

matthewschiefs
01-03-2012, 03:50 PM
O line

Bring back Orton I don't think that it would be to hard. Orton might not have set the world on fire but you have to rember that he only had 3 games in as the starter. The offense looked ok just couldn't get it done in the redzone. Charles Moaki will help that. But I have said this before and I will say it again if we don't get O line help it won't matter whos playing QB. Not many qbs do to well when they are having to run for there lifes.

Bike
01-03-2012, 04:23 PM
Build the lines first.

Chiefster
01-03-2012, 04:40 PM
I wrote this in the other forumn.............



I agree, headcoach first, O Line needs help, but so does QB. Oline will be easier to fix then QB.

Its very iffy that Orton will sign and even less likely the Chiefs would give him the money he will want. I'm thinking his value has gone up since there seems to be a high demand for QB's this year and less good quality high expectoncy qbs in the draft. (I hope he does sign, competition is good)

Cassel makes the OL look even worse and it seems he has lost the players respect. Maybe that will change now that Haley is no longer calling the plays. We do know however that he can start and win games if we have a good run game.

Sadly we don't know what Stanzi can do, guess Haley could not find a time when it seemed right to start him..............This really hurts because now its unknown what he is capable of. It would be nice to know if hes able to take the # 2 or 3 spot. It sucks finding out the hard way...............

I take it Palko has officially used up his welcome in any nfl game again. Just my guess.


added: I also think it will be much easier to get a starting RT or C/G in the FA. Therefore I think we should do some fancy trading and get the best availible QB sometime in the first two rounds.

The quote stated in the thread starter was in response to the reply you posted here. I agree that we cannot leave the QB position, as it stands currently, unaddressed. I believe we can do this by retaining Orton and letting him compete with Cassel for the job. The problem will be contracts regarding both players. IMO.

OPLookn
01-03-2012, 04:43 PM
Get Orton to sign (we have a ton of cap room) and then draft O-line in the first. While I'd like to draft a flashy QB there will be another available somewhere down the line. Barkley is coming out next year, Washington's QB Price looked like a stud against Baylor in it's bowl game and Price is only a sophomore. I'm not against getting a new shiny QB but I'd prefer to see our O-line be built since we've neglected it for so long.

Chiefster
01-03-2012, 04:45 PM
Get Orton to sign (we have a ton of cap room) and then draft O-line in the first. While I'd like to draft a flashy QB there will be another available somewhere down the line. Barkley is coming out next year, Washington's QB Price looked like a stud against Baylor in it's bowl game and Price is only a sophomore. I'm not against getting a new shiny QB but I'd prefer to see our O-line be built since we've neglected it for so long.

Rep! :smile

okikcfan
01-03-2012, 04:50 PM
O line

Bring back Orton I don't think that it would be to hard. Orton might not have set the world on fire but you have to rember that he only had 3 games in as the starter. The offense looked ok just couldn't get it done in the redzone. Charles Moaki will help that. But I have said this before and I will say it again if we don't get O line help it won't matter whos playing QB. Not many qbs do to well when they are having to run for there lifes.

I don't think it will be all that easy either. Orton wants to be a starter. His games here were not that impressive but he did well. I think he will be offered a job elsewhere as a starter. IMO

Chiefster
01-03-2012, 04:52 PM
O line

Bring back Orton I don't think that it would be to hard. Orton might not have set the world on fire but you have to rember that he only had 3 games in as the starter. The offense looked ok just couldn't get it done in the redzone. Charles Moaki will help that. But I have said this before and I will say it again if we don't get O line help it won't matter whos playing QB. Not many qbs do to well when they are having to run for there lifes.


I don't think it will be all that easy either. Orton wants to be a starter. His games here were not that impressive but he did well. I think he will be offered a job elsewhere as a starter. IMO

Two very good points. Rep!

okikcfan
01-03-2012, 04:58 PM
If we build up our Oline first, whom ever we have at QB should do better. But, will they, Orton or Cassel, be good enough to get us past the play off's and into the Superbowl? That my friends is the .50 cent question....

Hayvern
01-03-2012, 05:03 PM
We can say all the nice things we want about Cassel, but here is the bottom line.

A QBs job is to read defenses and throw the ball to open receivers. Any monkey at the QB position can hand the ball off to a running back, but when the game is on the line, the QB has to be able to make something happen.

Now, Cassel is tough, no one can deny that, and that is one of the main things I like about him. At the same time, I have seen too many times where he is paniced or just overlooks wide open receivers. He is not making his reads well and is not able to get the ball out there.

At this point, I do not think any of the QBs we have on this team are the answer. If anything is being proven in the modern football age is that quality quarterbacks are more important than ever before.

We need a quality player at that position. I don't think we have that guy anymore.

matthewschiefs
01-03-2012, 05:08 PM
I don't think it will be all that easy either. Orton wants to be a starter. His games here were not that impressive but he did well. I think he will be offered a job elsewhere as a starter. IMO

I don't think that Orton is one that would be offered the starters job that easy. I think he will get what we would offer a chance to earn that job. Orton just doesn't have a track record that would say he's the starter to me yet. But we will just have to wait and see

OPLookn
01-03-2012, 05:10 PM
I'm pretty sure we do get comp'd if Orton leaves but thought I'd make sure. If he does leave what kind of guesstimate do we get for him?

Hayvern
01-03-2012, 05:11 PM
I don't think that Orton is one that would be offered the starters job that easy. I think he will get what we would offer a chance to earn that job. Orton just doesn't have a track record that would say he's the starter to me yet. But we will just have to wait and see

If not, then why would we want him? There are teams that need QBs though, Miami for one. He will get on with a team somewhere. I am not sure I would be too disappointed to see him go as long as there was something big in the works in KC.

Hayvern
01-03-2012, 05:12 PM
I'm pretty sure we do get comp'd if Orton leaves but thought I'd make sure. If he does leave what kind of guesstimate do we get for him?

He is an unrestricted free agent, so no, we do not get anything for him unless we franchise him, and he is not good enough for that.

matthewschiefs
01-03-2012, 05:15 PM
If not, then why would we want him? There are teams that need QBs though, Miami for one. He will get on with a team somewhere. I am not sure I would be too disappointed to see him go as long as there was something big in the works in KC.

We could probley offer him more to work with then he has had anywhere eles. Chicago has never really been know for there offense. Denver he did pretty well there but just was not a good team around him. Orton showed that he can move the ball with this team just couldn't punch it in the endzone once we got to the redzone. That to me is a good sign. Give him our full offense he could be really good. That's why I would like to see him back. He moved the ball well without Charles, Moaki. I would like to see him in the FULL CHIEFS offense. I think he could do very well.

OPLookn
01-03-2012, 05:25 PM
He is an unrestricted free agent, so no, we do not get anything for him unless we franchise him, and he is not good enough for that.

You made me question which is never good.... I went out and did a little reading. Granted this isn't the end all be all but here's what I found.

"One argument for placing a claim regardless is that it could improve the Bears' standing in the complicated formula for awarding compensatory draft picks for departed free agents, presuming Orton signs elsewhere in the offseason."

Bears: Claim Kyle Orton or wait it out? - NFL Nation Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/48834/bears-claim-kyle-orton-or-wait-it-out)

So my questions is still there, what kind of compensation do we get?

okikcfan
01-03-2012, 05:34 PM
Our hands are kinda tied at this point. If Orton leaves, Stanzi will have to do really well to beat Cassel as the starter. So what do we do? Draft another? Have two rookies behind Cassel? This whole QB issue is a complete cluster puck. They will not Trade Cassel just yet unless Paoli has some big deal in the works.

ctchiefsfan
01-03-2012, 06:16 PM
If we build up our Oline first, whom ever we have at QB should do better. But, will they, Orton or Cassel, be good enough to get us past the play off's and into the Superbowl? That my friends is the .50 cent question....

Thanks to everybody for the replies so far. All interesting points.

I'm sort of assuming that we are going to make a serious push to improve our O-line in the draft this year.

And I am sort of assuming that our philosophy on offense is going to continue to be a "run first" team.

And I think that either Cassel or Orton can get us to the playoffs in that offensive philosophy. If nothing else because the AFC West is a weak division.

Does everybody agree on that?

Second if you do agree that is what we are likely to do, then the big question becomes.....

Which "type" of QB--"game manager" or "gunslinger" is best for us as we look to win the AFC West in 2012 and hopefully get our first playoff win in far too long.

I've been a Cassel backer, but I'm starting to wonder if either Cassel or Orton might not be able to manage a game well where the offense was primarily the run but that *maybe* we would be better off keeping Orton so that when we run into a game where the run gets stuffed, we still have a QB whose nature is to want to go out there and be a gunslinger.

That is what Orton WANTS to be.

I don't get the impression that is what Cassel really wants to be.

What do y'all think?

okikcfan
01-03-2012, 07:00 PM
As I said, I think who ever we have will do better at QB if we can improve the offense. That is the key issue for me. Then beef up the Defense, add another power pass rusher to pair with Hali. Who knows at this point what is going on with Bowe and Carr. Cassel is not a gunslinger. The Bronco's and Raiders are to me worse off at QB then we are and San Diego keeping Norv and AJ I expect to see major roster changes there. So San Diego will be our biggest threat next year to win the west. We have to be solid at QB to compete an IF Cassel is our QB in 2012 we need to give him time to throw the ball cause we all know he like to hang on to it for awhile. Plus we have no idea if JC will come back at 100%, which I'm sure we all hope he does, but just for games sake we will need to throw in an extra RB for good measure.

jap1
01-03-2012, 08:40 PM
One thing I would like to bring up is whether Cassel really is ONLY a game manager. I know that has been his role with us, but I wonder if that was more because we had an offensive coordinator/head coach that was stubborn, or if it is because it is all that he can do.

I am not a big New England fan, but they usually dont have an awesome running game. When he took over for Brady, was it in a "game manager" role or as a "gunslinger?" Does anybody know? If he was a gunslinger, then can you really say he doesn't have the capability to do that/be that again?

I know personally, I would like to see us beef up the OL before we do anything about the QB positions. Whether that happens in FA or the draft, I really dont care ... as long as it happens.

okikcfan
01-03-2012, 09:34 PM
One thing I would like to bring up is whether Cassel really is ONLY a game manager. I know that has been his role with us, but I wonder if that was more because we had an offensive coordinator/head coach that was stubborn, or if it is because it is all that he can do.

I am not a big New England fan, but they usually dont have an awesome running game. When he took over for Brady, was it in a "game manager" role or as a "gunslinger?" Does anybody know? If he was a gunslinger, then can you really say he doesn't have the capability to do that/be that again?

I know personally, I would like to see us beef up the OL before we do anything about the QB positions. Whether that happens in FA or the draft, I really dont care ... as long as it happens.

This is a point, and a good point that has come up before, was Haley holding Cassel back? Is he really capable of doing more than what we have seen? It appears Muir is leaving so with this we will need to bring in a solid OC, one that can bring more balance and stability to our offense after FA and the draft. I feel Orton will be gone and Cassel will be the man for at least one more year. But hey, that's just my feelings.

GarH
01-03-2012, 09:49 PM
So we can go with happy feet or a QB that's good between the 20 yard lines but can't do the job in the Red Zone. I'll go with happy feet. I want to see the Chiefs score more than one TD per game. Take an OL in the first and a QB in the second and hope whatever QB we get or Stanzi can be ready in a year.

okikcfan
01-03-2012, 09:52 PM
Stanzi can be ready in a year.

This would be nice...

2010chiefs
01-03-2012, 11:54 PM
Tired of Cassel playing not to lose instead of playing to win mentality. I rather go with Orton in case the run gets stuffed. Running games alone do not win Super Bowls and a QB like Cassel does not win Super Bowls.

Bike
01-04-2012, 12:11 AM
Tired of Cassel playing not to lose instead of playing to win mentality. I rather go with Orton in case the run gets stuffed. Running games alone do not win Super Bowls and a QB like Cassel does not win Super Bowls.
With all due respect to Cassel, he was handcuffed by Haley big time. This whole team was. Orton is still the better talent though.

okikcfan
01-04-2012, 12:35 AM
Tired of Cassel playing not to lose instead of playing to win mentality. I rather go with Orton in case the run gets stuffed. Running games alone do not win Super Bowls and a QB like Cassel does not win Super Bowls.

So I am asking if Orton goes what do you do?

N TX Dave
01-04-2012, 12:45 AM
One thing I would like to bring up is whether Cassel really is ONLY a game manager. I know that has been his role with us, but I wonder if that was more because we had an offensive coordinator/head coach that was stubborn, or if it is because it is all that he can do.

I am not a big New England fan, but they usually dont have an awesome running game. When he took over for Brady, was it in a "game manager" role or as a "gunslinger?" Does anybody know? If he was a gunslinger, then can you really say he doesn't have the capability to do that/be that again?

I know personally, I would like to see us beef up the OL before we do anything about the QB positions. Whether that happens in FA or the draft, I really dont care ... as long as it happens.

Well his year in NE was 516 attempts, 327 comp, 63.4% for 3693 yards and 7.2 yd/att 21 td 11 int rating of 89 so was he being held back?

Brady prior year was 578 att, 398 comp, 68.9% for 4806 yards and 8.3 yd/att 50 td 8 int rating of 117.

Brady next year was 565 att, 371 comp, 65.7% for 4398 yards and 7.8 yd/att 28 td 13 int rating of 96.

So he had less attempts and less completions and lower percentage of completions less TD and lower rating than Brady had the year before and after with the basically same team/coaches. Now we know not many QB's are as good as Brady you make your mind up.

Bike
01-04-2012, 12:57 AM
So I am asking if Orton goes what do you do?.
We pay him to stay and cut ties with Cassel. It'l take some stones for Pioli to admit he made TWO serious blunders in his short stint here so far.

toyotapower
01-04-2012, 02:26 AM
Listening to people close to the situation there's a good chance peyton manning is let go by the colts. He has a clause in his contract that the colts can opt out by march of this year. Whether he wants to play or not for another team is an entirely different question. My guess would be that if he is released he is going to want to prove he still has it, and I bet he does.

N TX Dave
01-04-2012, 02:36 AM
Listening to people close to the situation there's a good chance peyton manning is let go by the colts. He has a clause in his contract that the colts can opt out by march of this year. Whether he wants to play or not for another team is an entirely different question. My guess would be that if he is released he is going to want to prove he still has it, and I bet he does.

He probably still has it but the big question is will his body let him or more importantly how many hits can his body take before he has to quit?

texaschief
01-04-2012, 03:04 AM
I'm all for building the O-line... just not with our first pick. Where the Chiefs are sitting in the draft (11 or 12), we're not going to be in position to draft an elite Jake Long type left tackle. We already have 3 young O-linemen in Albert, Hudson, and Asomoah which to build upon. Lilja will probably be back next season but it would be wise to draft his replacement in the 3rd or 4th round.

At pick #11/12 however, the Chiefs will either be settling for a LT comparable to Branden Albert with less NFL experience or drastically overpaying for a RT. The Chiefs have other needs to address instead of panicking and spending a high-value pick on a position where you can find a good player in the 2nd round.

I haven't formed a complete opinion about what position the Chiefs should spend their first round pick to upgrade, but I can say without a doubt that it should NOT be on the O-line unless the top LT falls in our lap. This is a shallow pool for OTs this year and overspending for a non-elite OT could have dire consequences for the future of the Chiefs O-line.

Hayvern
01-04-2012, 03:33 AM
You made me question which is never good.... I went out and did a little reading. Granted this isn't the end all be all but here's what I found.

"One argument for placing a claim regardless is that it could improve the Bears' standing in the complicated formula for awarding compensatory draft picks for departed free agents, presuming Orton signs elsewhere in the offseason."

Bears: Claim Kyle Orton or wait it out? - NFL Nation Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/48834/bears-claim-kyle-orton-or-wait-it-out)

So my questions is still there, what kind of compensation do we get?

You are right, but it looks like what happens is based on what happened the year before and a formula.

So according to NFL.com news: NFL distributes compensatory draft picks to 23 clubs (http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d81ef2e1e/article/nfl-distributes-compensatory-draft-picks-to-23-clubs)

it looks like the formula is based on Salary, playing time and post season honors. His salary is pretty high, but his playing time and post season honors are crap.

Last year we got a 6th round pick for losing who ever it is we lost, I don't remember losing anyone of any consequence, the article mentions Wade Smith, I don't even remember that guy.

Considering that, maybe we could get as high as a third rounder for him if he leaves, it also depends on who we actually sign in free agency though. If we do not sign anyone, then we could go higher.

dbolan
01-04-2012, 10:26 AM
Everyone wallows about the O-Line and I hear that every single year. granted, there has been some need there from time to time just as with any other position but for pete's sake...

I just looked at the Chiefs TEAM stats from last year..

Kansas City Chiefs Stats at NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/teams/statistics?season=2010&team=KC&seasonType)=

And we out "averaged" all of our opponents in nearly every area, or tied them with the exception of PASSING yards. With that being a FACT how does the O-LINE always seem to be the quarrel for need??

When Charles went down that facked the passing game. More d players could play pass. When Cassell went down, that gave the defenses a free pass to do whatever they wanted. Then when Bowe went out of the game at Denver, what happened?

While I am not a huge fan of Bowe, it did prove that the recievers we have are lower tier. They could not step-up. Same with our RB's when Charles went down. Same with our QB's when Cassell went down.

From my perspective, Pioli/Hunt need to come off of that satchel full of money and start getting skilled players that can make a difference if someone gets put out.