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figcrostic
01-08-2012, 10:21 PM
That Teboner and the Donkeys just spanked the Steelers in OT right after we spanked them and held them to 3 points despite us losing our number 1 WR before the second half (and all the other injuries on our team).

:chiefs:

nigeriannightmare
01-08-2012, 11:07 PM
That Teboner and the Donkeys just spanked the Steelers in OT right after we spanked them and held them to 3 points despite us losing our number 1 WR before the second half (and all the other injuries on our team).

:chiefs:

And the afc west advances which i like everybody saying how weak the division was.

matthewschiefs
01-08-2012, 11:32 PM
Tebow was pretty good today. I am starting to hope the the donkeys do trade him

Eydugstr
01-09-2012, 12:26 AM
The steelers now understand what it feels like to fall in the first round of the playoffs.

Tebow made the throws...but only when he needed to. Most of the time he was throwing too high or too low, and he held onto the ball way too long. It was good enough against the Steelers, but I don't see this lasting too long against the Patriots or Ravens.

figcrostic
01-09-2012, 12:53 AM
The sad thing is Tebow has one thing that no Chiefs QB has had since Joe Montana......... A PLAYOFF WIN!!!!!!

Chiefster
01-09-2012, 02:47 AM
The steelers now understand what it feels like to fall in the first round of the playoffs.

Tebow made the throws...but only when he needed to. Most of the time he was throwing too high or too low, and he held onto the ball way too long. It was good enough against the Steelers, but I don't see this lasting too long against the Patriots or Ravens.

Agreed, I don't believe Denver will get past the Patriots.

Chiefster
01-09-2012, 03:00 AM
I dont know, I may have to retract my last statement. I did some stat research on NFL.com, realizing that the game is played on the grid iron and not on paper BUT the Steelers are ranked first in the NFL in pass defense. The Patriots are ranked 31 in the NFL in pass defense. Seeing how Denver just beat the Steelers with the pass this may well be a closer game then initially believed.

NFL Stats: by Team Category (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&season=2011&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go)

Miller
01-09-2012, 04:04 AM
The sad thing is Tebow has one thing that no Chiefs QB has had since Joe Montana......... A PLAYOFF WIN!!!!!!
Well........that is a kick in the gut

wolfpack
01-09-2012, 09:07 AM
with the steelers cb`s looking as bad as they did it probably just made carrs $ go up alittle.
another reason why, unless its a out of the ballpark amount,we should resign carr

#58ChiefsFan
01-09-2012, 10:42 AM
I was pretty disappointed in the gameplan Dick LeBeau came up with. Romeo gave them the template and they came in with a poor scheme.

The Donks will have to score in the 30's to beat New England, we'll see if they can do that.

I'm still not sold on him but you have to give the kid props for leading that win.

figcrostic
01-09-2012, 11:39 AM
Well........that is a kick in the gut

Yup that's about what I felt when I first realized it, even more depressing if they win another game. I could have dealt with the Faiders and Palmer or even Rivers but Tebow! Maybe Chief31 is right maybe the QB really isn't that important.

dbolan
01-09-2012, 01:38 PM
I dont know, I may have to retract my last statement. I did some stat research on NFL.com, realizing that the game is played on the grid iron and not on paper BUT the Steelers are ranked first in the NFL in pass defense. The Patriots are ranked 31 in the NFL in pass defense. Seeing how Denver just beat the Steelers with the pass this may well be a closer game then initially believed.

NFL Stats: by Team Category (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&season=2011&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go)

What he said...

Jrudi
01-09-2012, 02:01 PM
I was thinking about this before the Donks actually won that game...

But I looked at the AFC Wild Card teams, and we could have totally beat either team (Steelers or Bengals)

Crap if we would have had Orton against Pitt in the regular season we could have beat them. And I just am not that Sold on the Bengals, they are a decent team, but they aren't elite. (Similar to the Chiefs, their arrow is pointing up)

Then another trip to Foxborogh as a re-match of Monday night football (which again could have been a decent game with our improvement at the QB position)

Just pondering what could have been....

AkChief49
01-09-2012, 02:04 PM
Not completely sold yet. The Steelers were without their #1 tackler in Ryan Clark. Pouncey was out and later Keisel and Hampton went down.
worst of all it woulda, shoulda, coulda been us. A blocked field goal, anyone but Palko playing in our Steeler game, this team needs to get the persona of taking care of business early and often! We did not win the West, we let it slip through our fingers!!

Seek
01-09-2012, 02:24 PM
The sad thing is Tebow has one thing that no Chiefs QB has had since Joe Montana......... A PLAYOFF WIN!!!!!!

I would like to point out that Tebows offensive numbers were well below Ortons. The only change was Denvers defense dramatically changed mostly because they were not on the field as much due to the offense running out the Clock and giving them decent field position.

While Tebow may have a play off win, It was still on the backs of their defense and Incredible disguised holding of their offensive line specifically Zane Beadles. That guy blatanly holds every single play.

Seek
01-09-2012, 02:28 PM
I was pretty disappointed in the gameplan Dick LeBeau came up with. Romeo gave them the template and they came in with a poor scheme.

The Donks will have to score in the 30's to beat New England, we'll see if they can do that.

I'm still not sold on him but you have to give the kid props for leading that win.

Uh, the Steelers tried to use the Template, the difference is that Ike Taylor is not Carr or Flowers. He was beat constantly all day in man coverage. If he was not beat by a completed pass he was flagged for holding becuase he was beat in coverage.

The Steelers tried to play man to man like the Chiefs did, and I bet you the Donkies worked on Man to Man routes all week knowing that was coming.

We better sign Carr!

70 chiefsfan70
01-09-2012, 03:43 PM
The Donkies won because of Tebowe's ability to get the team to believe in themselves (leadership) and not because he is a good qb. He puts up numbers just good enough to win, but the biggest thing is he gets the best out of every player, defense and offense. Every player respects him.

This is whats wrong with Cassel..........He has the talent and abilty to have good numbers but lacks (the leadership) getting other players motivated, player have lost respect and don't play their best and don't believe in him. we saw this more and more every game this year in which he started. Just look at how Orton has made the same OL and RB's play better, the WR's get open and the Offense looks a heck of a lot more organized. I also think Haley and his sorry play calling had a big hand in this as well.

But bottom line is the difference in a winning team is attitude and thats only found behind a good leader either in way of a special player or coaching. Thats why football is 60% mental 40% physical.


ps.....I'm not a Cassel Hater nor do I think that Orton is the answer to the QB problem. This team is desperate for a leader and I think it will take a new face to get it done.

I don't want a Tebowe style QB on our team I just want a Tebowe style additude on this team.

honda522
01-09-2012, 04:26 PM
Fluke!

Tebow didn't win. The Broncos won. He just managed a game well enough and wr stepped up and actually caught the ball.

This Steelers didn't play like the Steelers do.

Seek
01-09-2012, 05:39 PM
The Donkies won because of Tebowe's ability to get the team to believe in themselves (leadership) and not because he is a good qb. He puts up numbers just good enough to win, but the biggest thing is he gets the best out of every player, defense and offense. Every player respects him.

This is whats wrong with Cassel..........He has the talent and abilty to have good numbers but lacks (the leadership) getting other players motivated, player have lost respect and don't play their best and don't believe in him. we saw this more and more every game this year in which he started. Just look at how Orton has made the same OL and RB's play better, the WR's get open and the Offense looks a heck of a lot more organized. I also think Haley and his sorry play calling had a big hand in this as well.

But bottom line is the difference in a winning team is attitude and thats only found behind a good leader either in way of a special player or coaching. Thats why football is 60% mental 40% physical.


ps.....I'm not a Cassel Hater nor do I think that Orton is the answer to the QB problem. This team is desperate for a leader and I think it will take a new face to get it done.

I don't want a Tebowe style QB on our team I just want a Tebowe style additude on this team.

I see things differently. It is not the QB, it is the HC John Fox who took the teams Strengths and that Is a good defense with tons of 1st round talent on the line and linebackers, a good offensive line with two good running backs with one having a 25% chance of throwing the ball for a completion.

He game planned using the teams strengths, and limiting their liability of QB from throwing the balland simplified the team. With Orton, at the helm, they didn't have the running back feature they have with Tebow, but also gave them a passing weapon so that game plan unfortunately was a losing one.

You can credit Tebow all you want, but he is the single reason they lost the last three games prior to Sunday.

70 chiefsfan70
01-09-2012, 05:54 PM
I see things differently. It is not the QB, it is the HC John Fox who took the teams Strengths and that Is a good defense with tons of 1st round talent on the line and linebackers, a good offensive line with two good running backs with one having a 25% chance of throwing the ball for a completion.

He game planned using the teams strengths, and limiting their liability of QB from throwing the balland simplified the team. With Orton, at the helm, they didn't have the running back feature they have with Tebow, but also gave them a passing weapon so that game plan unfortunately was a losing one.

You can credit Tebow all you want, but he is the single reason they lost the last three games prior to Sunday.


Say what you will, John fox was the headcoach when they lost three out of their first four games, it is then that Tebowe took over and energized the team in to a completely different mode. Like him or not, Tebowe is the difference, he is a leader,(and not a good qb) the rest of the team is not at all playing the same, everyone stepped up. Sure John Fox deserves some credit, he started Tebowe and changed the way they used to play the game.

I don't like him as a QB, but I like what he has done to motivate his team, Can you imagine what a chiefs team would look like with a leader????? We have far more talent then the donkies.

Hayvern
01-09-2012, 05:59 PM
Tebow is an enigma for a lot of people. I hear he is not a great QB and certainly his numbers do not point to the best, but he makes plays when it is important and keeps his team in a position to win.

I think next year we are going to know more about Tebow and whether he has what it takes. Right now, the Broncos are flying high on their wins and they should, they got into the playoffs after all. Who knows, it is certainly possible they make it to the Super Bowl.

jap1
01-09-2012, 06:44 PM
I would like to point out that Tebows offensive numbers were well below Ortons. The only change was Denvers defense dramatically changed mostly because they were not on the field as much due to the offense running out the Clock and giving them decent field position.

While Tebow may have a play off win, It was still on the backs of their defense and Incredible disguised holding of their offensive line specifically Zane Beadles. That guy blatanly holds every single play.

Another advantage they have because of Tebow is his strength and ability. He is extremely valuable in the redzone (which is where Orton has always had problems). The fact that Tebow can power it in on a QB draw, gives the defense one extra thing to game plan over. Usually, a defense can cover one thing really well, or multiple things ok. Same thing on 3rd and short or 3rd and medium.

chief31
01-09-2012, 07:16 PM
Say what you will, John fox was the headcoach when they lost three out of their first four games, it is then that Tebowe took over and energized the team in to a completely different mode. Like him or not, Tebowe is the difference, he is a leader,(and not a good qb) the rest of the team is not at all playing the same, everyone stepped up. Sure John Fox deserves some credit, he started Tebowe and changed the way they used to play the game.

I don't like him as a QB, but I like what he has done to motivate his team, Can you imagine what a chiefs team would look like with a leader????? We have far more talent then the donkies.

I have no doubt that most of the players on that team are fully aware that they are winning in spite of Tebow.

But he has made a lot of big plays, when they mattered the most.

matthewschiefs
01-09-2012, 07:53 PM
I have no doubt that most of the players on that team are fully aware that they are winning in spite of Tebow.

But he has made a lot of big plays, when they mattered the most.



Yes he has. What I saw yesterday those long throws were RIGHT ON the WRs hands. He made the plays and the THROWS that won them that game. Tebow didn't do anything to get any hate yesterday IMO

okikcfan
01-09-2012, 08:10 PM
Yes he has. What I saw yesterday those long throws were RIGHT ON the WRs hands. He made the plays and the THROWS that won them that game. Tebow didn't do anything to get any hate yesterday IMO

Sadly, I agree...:sAng_scream:

nigeriannightmare
01-09-2012, 11:57 PM
I have no doubt that most of the players on that team are fully aware that they are winning in spite of Tebow.

But he has made a lot of big plays, when they mattered the most.



Fairly certain he has the second highest qbr in the fourth quarter behind aaron rogers. He plays well when it natters most.

70 chiefsfan70
01-10-2012, 08:58 AM
I have no doubt that most of the players on that team are fully aware that they are winning in spite of Tebow.

But he has made a lot of big plays, when they mattered the most.


Tebowe does appear to handle the qb job better on every game he plays. Next year we the chiefs will have to go through them to get to the playoffs no doubt, and it will not be an easy task. John Fox is a smart coach and I'm sure they will draft to fit Tebowes style.

Seek
01-10-2012, 10:17 AM
Say what you will, John fox was the headcoach when they lost three out of their first four games, it is then that Tebowe took over and energized the team in to a completely different mode. Like him or not, Tebowe is the difference, he is a leader,(and not a good qb) the rest of the team is not at all playing the same, everyone stepped up. Sure John Fox deserves some credit, he started Tebowe and changed the way they used to play the game.

I don't like him as a QB, but I like what he has done to motivate his team, Can you imagine what a chiefs team would look like with a leader????? We have far more talent then the donkies.

So what we have here is a strongly biased opinion of a people, and saying the Chiefs have no leaders, when they clearly do. Matt Cassel is a very good leader. He held camps in the off season so the team can work. He lets rookies live with him until they can get they can adapt to the NFL life. He single handedly energized this team numerous times last year, even more specifically right after he had his appendix out.

McClain is also another huge leader.

Have you seen Derrick Johnson recently. Not only is he directing players on the field on where they should be, He is right and making plays.

Eric Berry was another leader until he got hurt.

Supposedly Thomas Jones is a leader, but I just do see it.

Fact of the matter you have fallen into the Media biased love for Tebow. Did you know two rookie QB's too their team to the playoffs last week. The Texans won their first ever Play off game. The Bugals lead by a Rookie QB made a rare trip to the play offs. Do you hear anything about them.

Yes Tebow made a great throw to end the game but how about the 3 before that got the fans in Denver Booing him. Let also give Credit to Thomas for making the play Agaist Ike Taylor like he did all game long.

kcvet
01-10-2012, 10:23 AM
I wonder if the Steelers even looked at the tape from our game last week.

Seek
01-10-2012, 01:34 PM
I wonder if the Steelers even looked at the tape from our game last week.

Yes they did, and they tried to mirror it. Their corners are not as good as ours and it burned them.

70 chiefsfan70
01-11-2012, 12:40 AM
So what we have here is a strongly biased opinion of a people, and saying the Chiefs have no leaders, when they clearly do. Matt Cassel is a very good leader. He held camps in the off season so the team can work. He lets rookies live with him until they can get they can adapt to the NFL life. He single handedly energized this team numerous times last year, even more specifically right after he had his appendix out.

McClain is also another huge leader.

Have you seen Derrick Johnson recently. Not only is he directing players on the field on where they should be, He is right and making plays.

Eric Berry was another leader until he got hurt.

Supposedly Thomas Jones is a leader, but I just do see it.

Fact of the matter you have fallen into the Media biased love for Tebow. Did you know two rookie QB's too their team to the playoffs last week. The Texans won their first ever Play off game. The Bugals lead by a Rookie QB made a rare trip to the play offs. Do you hear anything about them.

Yes Tebow made a great throw to end the game but how about the 3 before that got the fans in Denver Booing him. Let also give Credit to Thomas for making the play Agaist Ike Taylor like he did all game long.


WOW! you need to have another beer dude, Any one who can say the chiefs offense have lots of good leaders has definately not been watching the miserable blowout losses I have been watching. This offense is lost,they have lots of talent, but its not being put to use. Orton kinda did that whan he came in,but still do not think he is the answer. I have NOT seen any one step up in the chiefs offense and take this team upon themselves get more out of each and every player. Thats what real true leaders do and Cassel has not been that guy.



Now with the Defense its been different, we have seen several guys do this, DJ, Hali, Carr, Flowers and more..........

And if you had read my other post in this very same thread you would know I'm not on the(Tebowe is a great QB bandwagon)....So find someone else to feed your media bias bull to..

Seek
01-11-2012, 03:22 PM
WOW! you need to have another beer dude, Any one who can say the chiefs offense have lots of good leaders has definately not been watching the miserable blowout losses I have been watching. This offense is lost,they have lots of talent, but its not being put to use. Orton kinda did that whan he came in,but still do not think he is the answer. I have NOT seen any one step up in the chiefs offense and take this team upon themselves get more out of each and every player. Thats what real true leaders do and Cassel has not been that guy.



Now with the Defense its been different, we have seen several guys do this, DJ, Hali, Carr, Flowers and more..........

And if you had read my other post in this very same thread you would know I'm not on the(Tebowe is a great QB bandwagon)....So find someone else to feed your media bias bull to..


Yes, I watch the games. I go to them live. Fact of the matter if you really don't think this offense has leaders. It is because you are already negatively biases and have closed your mind to even bother looking at them positively.

Why on earth would Cassel be on the side lines after IR and help Orton if he was not a team leader.

After watching Orton against Greenbay, I was clearly on the Anti Cassel Wagon, but to say he is not a leader is complete farse. The guy came out after having his appendix removed and emotionally brough the Chiefs to life.

Fact of the matter, Cassel thrived under Weis as the OC, and was openly arguing with Haley because there was conflicts that obviously was Haley.

There are leaders on this offense. You just have to be open minded to look past your owned biased opinions to see it.

Now, I am curious to see Cassel without Haley to see if we get the Cassel that won in New England and last year.

McClain has also ran the whole length of the field after getting a hard earned first down run against the Packers. Did you see that on TV or was it missed because it was McClain and not Tebow.

Even Bowe energized this team this year with the first home win. He made an incredible run with tons of determination for a TD. I know Arrowhead saw it and thrived off it.

70 chiefsfan70
01-12-2012, 12:13 AM
Yes, I watch the games. I go to them live. Fact of the matter if you really don't think this offense has leaders. It is because you are already negatively biases and have closed your mind to even bother looking at them positively.

Why on earth would Cassel be on the side lines after IR and help Orton if he was not a team leader.

After watching Orton against Greenbay, I was clearly on the Anti Cassel Wagon, but to say he is not a leader is complete farse. The guy came out after having his appendix removed and emotionally brough the Chiefs to life.

Fact of the matter, Cassel thrived under Weis as the OC, and was openly arguing with Haley because there was conflicts that obviously was Haley.

There are leaders on this offense. You just have to be open minded to look past your owned biased opinions to see it.

Now, I am curious to see Cassel without Haley to see if we get the Cassel that won in New England and last year.

McClain has also ran the whole length of the field after getting a hard earned first down run against the Packers. Did you see that on TV or was it missed because it was McClain and not Tebow.

Even Bowe energized this team this year with the first home win. He made an incredible run with tons of determination for a TD. I know Arrowhead saw it and thrived off it.


Leaders do more than just energize the moment and leaders don't loose one embarrasing lost after the other at home no less. Leaders don't give up, and we all know this offense gave up on several of those losses. This offense had more 3 and outs than any team I have ever followed.

If thats the kind of leadership you like to see than have at it. I have higher expectations out of the leaders on my team.

I stick with my comment, this offense is desperate for a leader to step up.

okikcfan
01-12-2012, 09:42 AM
Leaders do more than just energize the moment and leaders don't loose one embarrasing lost after the other at home no less. Leaders don't give up, and we all know this offense gave up on several of those losses. This offense had more 3 and outs than any team I have ever followed.

If thats the kind of leadership you like to see than have at it. I have higher expectations out of the leaders on my team.

I stick with my comment, this offense is desperate for a leader to step up.

I agree with Seek, We do have leaders, I believe the Core of the problems was Todd Haley. Haley got fired, Romeo stepped in and the offense stepped up. They played better under Romeo then Haley, that's a fact..

Seek
01-12-2012, 10:13 AM
Leaders do more than just energize the moment and leaders don't loose one embarrasing lost after the other at home no less. Leaders don't give up, and we all know this offense gave up on several of those losses. This offense had more 3 and outs than any team I have ever followed.

If thats the kind of leadership you like to see than have at it. I have higher expectations out of the leaders on my team.

I stick with my comment, this offense is desperate for a leader to step up.

You mean like Tebow did for three games straight. The Shine On Tebow will wear off. Fans were already booing him in the play off game because of his poor throws.

He can be a drama queen for the cameras but eventually his performance will grow stale and the Energy you think he is bringing will also go stale and people will then realize that there are 10 other people on the field making plays and not just the center piece.

As I said, the credit should go to the Coaches and other players, for getting the best use of all the players despite the lack of a QB they have in Tebow.

I don't beleive the offense gave up. I believe they were handcuffed by injuries and a cancer of a coach, who fired Chan Gailey for having to open of an offense, and then ran off Weis for not calling his plays. And both times the offense failed under Haley's direction. You can say injuries happen but NO team goes 7-9 with 4 KEY starters going down, and then having the back up to one of those starters sit half the games due to nagging injuries.

Those home losses were tied to the defense just as the offense unless you are considereing the Palko starts..

The Chiefs offensive line is half an offensive line. Our running backs are sub Par. I don't care what type of leader you think you can put out there, but they wont succeed under the conditions the Chiefs had this year.

Again, you are looking only at the result and not the cause and are clearly too closed minded to even look at the positives or negatives that MAKE A TEAM...

chief31
01-13-2012, 01:55 PM
Leaders do more than just energize the moment and leaders don't loose one embarrasing lost after the other at home no less. Leaders don't give up, and we all know this offense gave up on several of those losses. This offense had more 3 and outs than any team I have ever followed.

If thats the kind of leadership you like to see than have at it. I have higher expectations out of the leaders on my team.

I stick with my comment, this offense is desperate for a leader to step up.

That doersn't sound like our defense to you?

So, if we have no leaders on offense because of those factors, then we have no leaders on defense, for the exact same reasons, right?

AkChief49
01-13-2012, 05:02 PM
That doersn't sound like our defense to you?

So, if we have no leaders on offense because of those factors, then we have no leaders on defense, for the exact same reasons, right?
Quid Pro Quo:D

70 chiefsfan70
01-13-2012, 11:13 PM
That doersn't sound like our defense to you?

So, if we have no leaders on offense because of those factors, then we have no leaders on defense, for the exact same reasons, right?

The difference is that our defense got it together and the leaders stepped forward and picked this team up and played some real football, something the offense did not. The offense is still looking for that reason to believe in themselves and it may just take a new OC to get it done or maybe a new face at qb. I do think Cassel took some of the heat that was Haleys fault. But bottom line is, the OL was and still is searching.

chief31
01-14-2012, 11:39 AM
The difference is that our defense got it together and the leaders stepped forward and picked this team up and played some real football, ...

While the offenseive "leaders" got send to the hospital for the year?


something the offense did not. The offense is still looking for that reason to believe in themselves and it may just take a new OC to get it done or maybe a new face at qb. I do think Cassel took some of the heat that was Haleys fault. But bottom line is, the OL was and still is searching.

They may even be searching for leadership. I don't know. I am not on that offense, and those are the people who have some idea of ho much leadership they have.

I think you are envisioning a lack of leadership, because of the results. Whereas, put the greatest of leaders in a consistently terrible situation, and the results will be poor.

Leadership is not the same as team success.

70 chiefsfan70
01-14-2012, 05:34 PM
While the offenseive "leaders" got send to the hospital for the year?



They may even be searching for leadership. I don't know. I am not on that offense, and those are the people who have some idea of ho much leadership they have.

I think you are envisioning a lack of leadership, because of the results. Whereas, put the greatest of leaders in a consistently terrible situation, and the results will be poor.

Leadership is not the same as team success.


Agreed!

Leadership is a quality effort, the ability to motivate those around you.


You are correct, the leaders of last year did sit out. Thats when someone else has to pick up the slack and no one in the offense did that. Moeaki and Charles in the red zone would have been the difference.

I think it should have been Cassel (until he got hurt) and Bowe, I think both failed their team this year.

I think my point is proven by Orton. We had the same OL, RB's and WR's and everyone seemed to be playing better. I also think Haley being gone helped improve the motivation of the team. I am not much of an Orton fan and don't think he is the answer, but just imagine what a real elite QB would do here.

chief31
01-15-2012, 09:42 AM
Agreed!

Leadership is a quality effort, the ability to motivate those around you.


You are correct, the leaders of last year did sit out. Thats when someone else has to pick up the slack and no one in the offense did that. Moeaki and Charles in the red zone would have been the difference.

I think it should have been Cassel (until he got hurt) and Bowe, I think both failed their team this year.

I think my point is proven by Orton. We had the same OL, RB's and WR's and everyone seemed to be playing better. I also think Haley being gone helped improve the motivation of the team. I am not much of an Orton fan and don't think he is the answer, but just imagine what a real elite QB would do here.

So, we didn't have enough back-up leaders?

Again, determining who, if anyone, was showing real leadership, has to be done from the inside. There is no way to put any credibility to such a statement without inside information.

You seem to be just set on affiliating leadership to quick success.

The best leadership is leading the team through the tough times. Because nobody wants that job, and there is no glory to be had.


Everybody wants to be the leader when things are going great.