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okikcfan
01-18-2012, 08:22 PM
AUTHOR: Patrick Allen of the Arrowhead Addict. Please read it is rather interesting and as many know I am not a big Cassel Fan but who knows...



Is Matt Cassel a franchise QB?
Ask ten Chiefs fans what they think about Matt Cassel and you will probably get ten different answers. There are sure to be some who think he will still continue to improve and, if given the time, will become good enough to lead a well rounded Chiefs team to a championship. Others will say that weíve seen enough to know that Cassel is average at best and will never lead the Chiefs to a playoff victory, let alone the Super Bowl.
Those in the group that believe Cassel isnít good enough often point to the likes of Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers as evidence that to win it all, a team needs a stud QB. A difference maker.
Those in the group that believe that Cassel is good enough, might find a dog in that franchise QB fight in San Francisco QB Alex Smith.
To be fair, Alex Smith was drafted to be a franchise QB. He was taken first in the 2005 draft. His career, until this season, has been a major disappointment. Still, he was drafted and developed by the 49ers, where Matt Cassel was a 7th round pick drafted by the Patriots.
Other than where they were taken, however, Cassel and Smith are somewhat similar in their age and performance. To date, Smith has played in 70 NFL games. Cassel has played in 69. Casselís career completion percentage is 59%; Smithís is 58. Casselís average completion is 6.62 and Smithís is 6.40. Casselís tossed 76 TDís and 45 picks and Smithís tossed 68 TDís and 58 picks. Cassel enjoys a career QB rating of 82.5 while Smithís is 76.4. Cassel is 29 years old, Smith is 27.
Until this season, Smith was thought to be a bust. But the arrival of a new coach in San Francisco seemed to turn things around for him. Heís having a career year. His numbers arenít jaw dropping but they are certainly efficient. In the regular season, Smith completed 61.3% of his passes for 3,144 for an average of over seven yards per completion. He threw 17 TDís vs. five interceptions and had a QB rating of 90.7.
In last weekís divisional playoff game vs. the New Orleans Saints, Smith completed 57% of his passes for 299 yards, three TDís and no interceptions. He finished with a QB rating of 103.2 and anyone who watched that game can tell you that, in the 4th quarter, Smith outdueled Drew Brees to help his team win the game.
In fact, Smithís 2011 regular season is very similar to Matt Casselís 2010 season. Cassel completed 58% of his passes in 2010 for 3,116 yards and a 6.92 yards per completion average. He tossed 27 TDís vs. 7 picks and finished with a QB rating of 93.0.
Both Smith and Cassel benefited from strong running games and weak divisions. Both got some help from strong defense, Smith more so than Cassel.
This weekend, Alex Smith and the 49ers will play for a chance to go to the Super Bowl.
Should this give us hope for Matt Cassel? After all, I think most Chiefs fans would agree that next yearís KC defense should be stronger than ever, and perhaps even dominate. The return of Jamaal Charles and Tony Moeaki should help get the offense back on track. There will be a new draft class as well as (hopefully) a new crop of free agents. I would go so far as to say that Matt Casselís 2012 receiving options will be better than what Alex Smith is working with in 2011.
Is Alex Smith proof that the doubter might need to reevaluate Matt Cassel? If Alex Smith keeps winning, does that mean that Matt Cassel can follow in his footsteps?
Cassel and Smith are different QBís. There are also things that a QB does that might not necessarily show up on the stat sheet. Still, Smithís success has to give Chiefs fans at least a little bit of hope.
And since it looks like Matt Cassel will be the starter in KC in 2012, a little bit of hope might not be a bad thing.

azchiefsfan
01-18-2012, 09:40 PM
I think it's a fair comparison, but I'd place Cassel higher because of his ability to not to turn the ball over. Also, Smith is a competent QB who does well in a good team and will match the offenses ability. Cassel also does best with a complementing team around him, but he will make a good team better, while Smith will simply match the team around him. Cassel is not an elite QB, but he is a good QB and will rarely be the reason a team loses. I am comfortable with Matt Cassel as our starting and QBOTF. Now, if we could get a great QB that will single-handily grab the offense and carry them to victory, I wouldn't be opposed to make the change. But I really like Matt Cassel.

matthewschiefs
01-18-2012, 10:20 PM
I don't know the answer to that yet. Matt Cassel has put up some good numbers and looked like he could be a Franchise Qb at times. And looked like he can't lead an NFL offense at other times. A lot have gone into that. All the changes that have been made going into just about every season. Losing a number of the talent around him due to injuries this past season. I have not lost faith in Cassel yet. I have not gained much faith in him since the day he arrived. I just don't no about him. I just want him to have someone to make him fight for the job in training camp this year. I think that would be good for the team

AkChief49
01-18-2012, 10:58 PM
AUTHOR: Patrick Allen of the Arrowhead Addict. Please read it is rather interesting and as many know I am not a big Cassel Fan but who knows...



Is Matt Cassel a franchise QB?
Ask ten Chiefs fans what they think about Matt Cassel and you will probably get ten different answers. There are sure to be some who think he will still continue to improve and, if given the time, will become good enough to lead a well rounded Chiefs team to a championship. Others will say that we’ve seen enough to know that Cassel is average at best and will never lead the Chiefs to a playoff victory, let alone the Super Bowl.
Those in the group that believe Cassel isn’t good enough often point to the likes of Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers as evidence that to win it all, a team needs a stud QB. A difference maker.
Those in the group that believe that Cassel is good enough, might find a dog in that franchise QB fight in San Francisco QB Alex Smith.
To be fair, Alex Smith was drafted to be a franchise QB. He was taken first in the 2005 draft. His career, until this season, has been a major disappointment. Still, he was drafted and developed by the 49ers, where Matt Cassel was a 7th round pick drafted by the Patriots.
Other than where they were taken, however, Cassel and Smith are somewhat similar in their age and performance. To date, Smith has played in 70 NFL games. Cassel has played in 69. Cassel’s career completion percentage is 59%; Smith’s is 58. Cassel’s average completion is 6.62 and Smith’s is 6.40. Cassel’s tossed 76 TD’s and 45 picks and Smith’s tossed 68 TD’s and 58 picks. Cassel enjoys a career QB rating of 82.5 while Smith’s is 76.4. Cassel is 29 years old, Smith is 27.
Until this season, Smith was thought to be a bust. But the arrival of a new coach in San Francisco seemed to turn things around for him. He’s having a career year. His numbers aren’t jaw dropping but they are certainly efficient. In the regular season, Smith completed 61.3% of his passes for 3,144 for an average of over seven yards per completion. He threw 17 TD’s vs. five interceptions and had a QB rating of 90.7.
In last week’s divisional playoff game vs. the New Orleans Saints, Smith completed 57% of his passes for 299 yards, three TD’s and no interceptions. He finished with a QB rating of 103.2 and anyone who watched that game can tell you that, in the 4th quarter, Smith outdueled Drew Brees to help his team win the game.
In fact, Smith’s 2011 regular season is very similar to Matt Cassel’s 2010 season. Cassel completed 58% of his passes in 2010 for 3,116 yards and a 6.92 yards per completion average. He tossed 27 TD’s vs. 7 picks and finished with a QB rating of 93.0.
Both Smith and Cassel benefited from strong running games and weak divisions. Both got some help from strong defense, Smith more so than Cassel.
This weekend, Alex Smith and the 49ers will play for a chance to go to the Super Bowl.
Should this give us hope for Matt Cassel? After all, I think most Chiefs fans would agree that next year’s KC defense should be stronger than ever, and perhaps even dominate. The return of Jamaal Charles and Tony Moeaki should help get the offense back on track. There will be a new draft class as well as (hopefully) a new crop of free agents. I would go so far as to say that Matt Cassel’s 2012 receiving options will be better than what Alex Smith is working with in 2011.
Is Alex Smith proof that the doubter might need to reevaluate Matt Cassel? If Alex Smith keeps winning, does that mean that Matt Cassel can follow in his footsteps?
Cassel and Smith are different QB’s. There are also things that a QB does that might not necessarily show up on the stat sheet. Still, Smith’s success has to give Chiefs fans at least a little bit of hope.
And since it looks like Matt Cassel will be the starter in KC in 2012, a little bit of hope might not be a bad thing.

I'm really torn on Cassel. On one hand he has the grit, determination, and leadership skills. On the other hand he holds onto the ball too long, looking like he is indecisive in the pocket at times.

His comparison to Alex Smith has to go along with he fact that both of them have had different OC's in each of their starting seasons. Smith has had 7 different OC's and Cassel has had 3, fixing to have his 4th.

IMHO it is the fact that Harbaugh (you remember when he beat us in the playoffs in '96(95 season)? a certain kicker whose name shall not be mentioned was part of it) is a former NFL QB that has Smith looking good this year. The whole team for that matter.

Under Weis, Cassel had a good year, not so this year, but he did lose starters to be fair. When Orton came in and stared to move the ball everyone got excited (myself included) and immediately started to call for Cassel's head. To be fair again, Haley was gone. I would not mind to see them(Cassel and Orton) duel it out.

With the right guy in the OC postion, and the weapons he has at his disposal and Haley now gone (obvious problems going on there)I'd have to say yes, Cassel is a starter. I'm willing to give him another chance sans Haley and a good OC.

okikcfan
01-18-2012, 11:20 PM
I'm really torn on Cassel. On one hand he has the grit, determination, and leadership skills. On the other hand he holds onto the ball too long, looking like he is indecisive in the pocket at times.

His comparison to Alex Smith has to go along with he fact that both of them have had different OC's in each of their starting seasons. Smith has had 7 different OC's and Cassel has had 3, fixing to have his 4th.

IMHO it is the fact that Harbaugh (you remember when he beat us in the playoffs in '96(95 season)? a certain kicker whose name shall not be mentioned was part of it) is a former NFL QB that has Smith looking good this year. The whole team for that matter.

Under Weis, Cassel had a good year, not so this year, but he did lose starters to be fair. When Orton came in and stared to move the ball everyone got excited (myself included) and immediately started to call for Cassel's head. To be fair again, Haley was gone. I would not mind to see them(Cassel and Orton) duel it out.

With the right guy in the OC postion, and the weapons he has at his disposal and Haley now gone (obvious problems going on there)I'd have to say yes, Cassel is a starter. I'm willing to give him another chance sans Haley and a good OC.


I think that is the key here. Under Weiss Cassel had a good year. So if in fact we do get a solid, legit OC Cassels game could improve. As I said, I'm not the biggest Cassel fan but given the odd's that Orton will not return and Cassel will be our started in 2012 I feel he could do well under the right offense coach. I want Cassel to do well. QBOTF, yea not sold there yet but if he can improve I would be happy. I want to see the Cassel we got from NE.....

Three7s
01-19-2012, 01:10 AM
Short answer?

No.

bricooper78
01-19-2012, 01:24 AM
I think he is. He's not Tebow, Palko, Henne, Freeman, Grossman............... on down the line. He is better than them.

Our biggest issue is lack of O depth, and general depth. If you can't keep a QB upright and throwing, they won't win you anything. Put any quarterback on the ground 10 or more times a game, he's going to lose, and get hurt.

That line needs help, fast.

bricooper78
01-19-2012, 01:39 AM
Did he forget what he did in NE before coming here? Surely not. I am in no way saying the guy is Brees, Rodgers, he's not a top 5 guy, but he's above average, and has been behind a subpar OL, had a terrible ego maniac coach, too many things going on to blame just Matt for bad offense.
Now, the end of this year, if nothing has changed, and we're lopsided with a good D and no points, then I will jump to the front of the pitchfork weilding mob.. I honestly think the guy is not a bad QB, he's in a bad situation

2010chiefs
01-19-2012, 01:45 AM
Nope. I'll say it again. Would much rather work with Orton then Cassel as our starting QB. Cassel makes our o-line look worse then it is.

okikcfan
01-19-2012, 01:59 AM
Nope, not even close. Guy has beaten 1 playoff bound team in 3 seasons (seahawks in 10) and has atrocious numbers against solid/good/great teams.

Well we could at least try to be a little positive seeing the odd's are in his favor to start. You sound as if we should just trash the whole F ing season if Cassel starts. I could say more but it's like talking to my dog, he just tweeks his head and stares at me. I hope for the best and when we don't really have a choice in the matter I try to be hopeful.

AkChief49
01-19-2012, 02:26 AM
Nope, not even close. Guy has beaten 1 playoff bound team in 3 seasons (seahawks in 10) and has atrocious numbers against solid/good/great teams.
That was here. Explain his 2008 season with the Patriots.
They went 11-5 and did not go to the playoffs. He beat two playoff bound teams. One of them went to the Superbowl.(Ari)

I wanted to think he was a product of the Patriot O line. Maybe so. He still took 48 sacks that year, only Pittsburgh had more with 49. Hence the knock on him was holding the ball way too long. If that is the case, then we should be leaning that way(Oline) in this draft. At least in the 2nd-3rd rounds.

Like I said, I'm torn on the guy. I like him, but he needs to show me something.... soon.

doobs_05
01-19-2012, 02:42 AM
Short answer?

No.

qft!

AkChief49
01-19-2012, 02:55 AM
Because the previous season the same Patriots team was considered as "One of the greatest teams of all time" and went 18-1
Right, it's a team sport. So if the Oline is improved....

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 11:14 AM
That was here. Explain his 2008 season with the Patriots.
They went 11-5 and did not go to the playoffs. He beat two playoff bound teams. One of them went to the Superbowl.(Ari)

I wanted to think he was a product of the Patriot O line. Maybe so. He still took 48 sacks that year, only Pittsburgh had more with 49. Hence the knock on him was holding the ball way too long. If that is the case, then we should be leaning that way(Oline) in this draft. At least in the 2nd-3rd rounds.

Like I said, I'm torn on the guy. I like him, but he needs to show me something.... soon.

I don't wanna be a dick but your completely twisting things in a biased way, one of things people griped about Cassel before he came here was holding the ball WAY TOO LONG. You say he was sacked 48 times guess how many Tom Brady was sacked the year before under the exact same O-line?? 21 times or less then half the amount of Cassel, so it's not the line it's the qb. Also Brady took the same team 18-1 a year prior so 11-5 isn't too impressive with the talent on that roster. I actually don't hate Matt Cassel I don't think he's a franchise qb but I do think we could win games with him if our running game was number 1 like last year and we had Trent Green's O-line. If we stick with Cassel we need to build the team to his strengths he's not a quick read guy,nor is he good a bombing the ball down the field. He's very methodical check down passer and if he has times and very little pressure he usually makes good decisions. I personally would rather have Orton but if Cassel is our guy we have to make a system that accommodate's Cassel.

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 11:28 AM
Uh Fig, you know that their O line allowed the hit on Brady that blew out his knee and allowed Cassel to start thereafter, right? Anyway, moot point. Cassel is our guy and I look forward to another year and hope we have an O line that will either allow Cassel to show what he can do(again-I still count 2010 as a win for him-you know Pro Bowl and all) or expose whether he is the talentless hack other people say he is.

Chief Concerns
01-19-2012, 11:37 AM
Matt Cassel is not a franchise QB. He is not the right QB for the 2012 Chiefs. This team has so much talent that it should be right there competing for a Super Bowl next season. With Cassel, we'll only go as far as our all-star defense and Jamal Charles will take us. At most, Cassel will do enough to allow us to win. He's not THE deciding factor and that's what you need from a franchise QB. Only two team's have won a Super Bowl in the last 20 years without a franchise QB, Baltimore in Super Bowl XXXV and Tampa Bay in Super Bowl XXXVII.

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 11:48 AM
Uh Fig, you know that their O line allowed the hit on Brady that blew out his knee and allowed Cassel to start thereafter, right? Anyway, moot point. Cassel is our guy and I look forward to another year and hope we have an O line that will either allow Cassel to show what he can do(again-I still count 2010 as a win for him-you know Pro Bowl and all) or expose whether he is the talentless hack other people say he is.

So a qb getting hit and injured equates to crap line? Qb's get hit a lot even if they have pro-bowlers on their line sometimes they get hit and injured. Fact is under the same line Cassel sacked nearly 50 times where as Brady was sacked 21 times. The only reason I brought it up is AkChief49 threw that number out trying to act like Cassel played behind a horrible line and prevailed when in reality he played under a pretty good one. I agree 2010 was a very good year for him but like I said if we play toward his strength he will win but he's never going to be good at slinging the ball around if we want him to succeed then he has to have a good line and a good running game.

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 11:55 AM
So a qb getting hit and injured equates to crap line? Qb's get hit a lot even if they have pro-bowlers on their line sometimes they get hit and injured. Fact is under the same line Cassel sacked nearly 50 times where as Brady was sacked 21 times. The only reason I brought it up is AkChief49 threw that number out trying to act like Cassel played behind a horrible line and prevailed when in reality he played under a pretty good one. I agree 2010 was a very good year for him but like I said if we play toward his strength he will win but he's never going to be good at slinging the ball around if we want him to succeed then he has to have a good line and a good running game.

Ok, I gotcha. I still like him a lot, but I can meet you half way there. He is not an elite QB, but he is a good QB who isn't going to be the reason we lose very often and when our offense clicks, he can make us better. But I, like you, wish he were more of a run and gun type QB. A guy that could just will the offense better. He's not. He's a capable guy that helps a good team, not a guy that MAKES a good team. With the right help I am confident in our offense. But the O line will have to be the first priority. I'm interested in seeing if Pioli and Hunt see it and draft the same way I do.

bricooper78
01-19-2012, 12:00 PM
one of things people griped about Cassel before he came here was holding the ball WAY TOO LONG. .. If we stick with Cassel we need to build the team to his strengths he's not a quick read guy,nor is he good a bombing the ball down the field. He's very methodical check down passer and if he has times and very little pressure he usually makes good decisions. I personally would rather have Orton but if Cassel is our guy we have to make a system that accommodate's Cassel.

EXACTLY!!! want to play the game "who has won the superbowl in the last 5 years with a QB who holds the ball too long and gets sacked alot for it?" (they're called the Steelers)
And with Charlie Weis, we had a system that Cassel worked in, hence the results being better.

:efpge: <---all that aside, I don't see anything that is so outside the "normal" of other QBs in the league. Several hold the ball too long, several don't have Brady arm strength. Many take sacks they shouldn't.
I like Orton! I'd like them both to be here, and whoever wins training camp/preseason can take it. I also think the two men are somewhat similar in how they play, just by painting with broad brushstrokes, and both will work fine with a run first type offense that KC generally has.

We have a(nother) new horizon coming this summer, RAC will have his people in, and the players have shown how much they like RAC by responding to his coaching.. I for one am crossing my fingers and eagerly awaiting for the results!

ps, happiness is worth +3 player rating points in Madden :lol:

pojote
01-19-2012, 12:15 PM
Matt Cassel is not a franchise QB. He is not the right QB for the 2012 Chiefs. This team has so much talent that it should be right there competing for a Super Bowl next season. With Cassel, we'll only go as far as our all-star defense and Jamal Charles will take us. At most, Cassel will do enough to allow us to win. He's not THE deciding factor and that's what you need from a franchise QB. Only two team's have won a Super Bowl in the last 20 years without a franchise QB, Baltimore in Super Bowl XXXV and Tampa Bay in Super Bowl XXXVII.

I may agree with you, but what options do we have? Orton? It's more of the same stuff. Trade up for RG3? Miami will do it first. Get Peyton Manning? If he is released, he won't be healthy enough. Another rookie QB? Stanzi?

bricooper78
01-19-2012, 12:16 PM
Whoever was complaining about the deep ball will hang themselves if they see Stanzi try one.

dead duck in the air, overshot the WR most of the time with them, bad arc.... gives me a headache they drafted him.

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 12:24 PM
Cassel is average when it comes to franchise QBs. He certainly has a place, he's far from elite, but he's far from the worst.

If I were to put every starting quarterback into a tier, here's how it would look:

Studs

Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Brady


A Step Below

Rivers, Vick, Manning, Newton, Stafford, Roethlisberger, Romo

Average Joes

Cutler, Ryan, Schaub, Palmer, Flacco, Fitzpatrick, Cassel, Smith, Moore, Sanchez, Hasselbeck, Dalton

Below Average OR still something to prove

Tebow, Kolb, Jackson, Bradford, Ponder, McCoy, Gabbert, Grossman, Freeman

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 12:41 PM
Cassel is average when it comes to franchise QBs. He certainly has a place, he's far from elite, but he's far from the worst.

If I were to put every starting quarterback into a tier, here's how it would look:

The Best

Brady,Brees, Rodgers,Manning

Studs

Newton,Roethlisberger,Stafford


A Step Below

Rivers, Manning, Romo

Average Joes

Cutler, Ryan, Schaub, Palmer, Flacco, Fitzpatrick, Cassel, Smith, Moore, Sanchez, Hasselbeck, Dalton, Vick(below average pocket passer, but has ridiculous weapons and great speed), Freeman, Bradford

Below Average OR still something to prove

Tebow, Kolb, Jackson,Ponder, McCoy, Gabbert, Grossman

Fixed

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 12:44 PM
Fixed

I threw Freeman/Bradford in the bottom because they both had awful years. I don't think it's too out of line to say they have a lot to prove.

I tend to agree with you on Vick, I was up in the air on tier 2 or 3. I think his running ability that makes him a duel threat though gives him the bump into the second tier.

I do like how you added another tier though, makes a little more sense.

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 12:46 PM
The update from Figcrostic, a good template to start the arguing!

The Best

Brady,Brees, Rodgers,Manning

Studs

Newton,Roethlisberger,Stafford


A Step Below

Rivers, Manning, Romo

Average Joes

Cutler, Ryan, Schaub, Palmer, Flacco, Fitzpatrick, Cassel, Smith, Moore, Sanchez, Hasselbeck, Dalton, Vick(below average pocket passer, but has ridiculous weapons and great speed), Freeman, Bradford

Below Average OR still something to prove

Tebow, Kolb, Jackson,Ponder, McCoy, Gabbert, Grossman

bricooper78
01-19-2012, 12:53 PM
Flacco is heading to the championship round, only being average.
Ryan goes to the playoffs, Cutler looked to be heading there, Fitzpatrick was playing insane this season, half of it anyways lol Sanchez has hit the playoffs...

what's my point? You don't have to have one of the top 5 guys, you need a TEAM that is built to compliment each other's strenghts and weaknesses. **baltimore is a running team with a staunch defense**

(would run to kc and hump Brees' leg if he left New Orleans and came here tho lol)

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 01:14 PM
The update from Figcrostic, a good template to start the arguing!

The Best

Brady,Brees, Rodgers,Manning

Studs

Newton,Roethlisberger,Stafford,Manning


A Step Below

Romo,Ryan,Flacco,Rivers

Above Average

Ryan, Cutler, Schaub, Palmer

Average Joes

Cassel, Smith, Moore, Sanchez, Hasselbeck, Dalton, Vick(below average pocket passer, but has ridiculous weapons and great speed), Freeman, Bradford, Orton, Fitzpatrick

Below Average OR still something to prove

Tebow, Kolb, Jackson,Ponder, McCoy, Gabbert, Grossman

another edit

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 01:17 PM
another edit

Now that's just too many tiers...and Flacco/Ryan/Cutler/Schaub/Palmer have shown me nothing that makes them above average.

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 01:28 PM
Now that's just too many tiers...and Flacco/Ryan/Cutler/Schaub/Palmer have shown me nothing that makes them above average.

Flacco and Ryan consistently get there teams to the playoffs. I'm kind of iffy on Schaub and Palmer though they both have flashes of greatness but also seem to choke

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 01:32 PM
I'll take Cassel, still.

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 01:33 PM
Flacco and Ryan consistently get there teams to the playoffs. I'm kind of iffy on Schaub and Palmer though they both have flashes of greatness but also seem to choke

To me it's more the Ravens defense consistently getting htem to the playoffs. And Ryan just has tremendous weapons in the passing game, but I see your point.

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 01:36 PM
I'll take Cassel, still.

Over who?

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 01:38 PM
To me it's more the Ravens defense consistently getting htem to the playoffs. And Ryan just has tremendous weapons in the passing game, but I see your point.

Very valid points. The only problem I have is if you put them in the average category, they are far better then Cassel and the other average qb's. In my eyes someone like Ryan is the poster boy for a franchise qb anyone worse is not a franchise guy anyone better is very good.

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 01:46 PM
Over who?

Over pretty much every other QB in the league, except the clear top 5 guys. I think we need to hang on to him. Look, a scheme made a bad QB like Tebow look good and get him to the playoffs. The right scheme and personnel will allow Cassel to look like an All Pro-again.

dbolan
01-19-2012, 01:49 PM
Flacco and Ryan consistently get there teams to the playoffs. I'm kind of iffy on Schaub and Palmer though they both have flashes of greatness but also seem to choke

After watching Ryan a number of times this year, I would not be so pleased with him either.

okikcfan
01-19-2012, 01:52 PM
Oh F it, go for Flynn, what do we have to lose?

dbolan
01-19-2012, 01:58 PM
Oh F it, go for Flynn, what do we have to lose?


A few more games than last year...LMAO! :lol:

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 01:59 PM
Over pretty much every other QB in the league, except the clear top 5 guys. I think we need to hang on to him. Look, a scheme made a bad QB like Tebow look good and get him to the playoffs. The right scheme and personnel will allow Cassel to look like an All Pro-again.

who are top 5 guys to you?

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 02:19 PM
Brady, Brees, both Mannings(cause one is probably done), Rogers and Newton(yeah, he's THAT good).

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 02:20 PM
Some of the rest would give me pause, but in this offense, with this OL, I don't think they would perform better.

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 02:22 PM
Good Lord! Cam Newton with these receivers, we almost wouldn't need an offensive line!

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 02:33 PM
Brady, Brees, both Mannings(cause one is probably done), Rogers and Newton(yeah, he's THAT good).

So you'd rather have Cassel over Matt Stafford, Rivers, Romo,Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan etc.? If so I think you must be insane sir.

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 02:41 PM
Yes. Call me insane. Everyone mentioned looked like Ryan Leaf when their teams struggled. It would not be an improvement to what we have.

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 03:08 PM
Yes. Call me insane. Everyone mentioned looked like Ryan Leaf when their teams struggled. It would not be an improvement to what we have.

Matt Cassel's agent???

Three7s
01-19-2012, 03:11 PM
Yes. Call me insane. Everyone mentioned looked like Ryan Leaf when their teams struggled. It would not be an improvement to what we have.
who's "everyone"? There are maybe 5 QBs in the league worse than Cassel. Even sniffing the top 5 is a complete joke.

OPLookn
01-19-2012, 03:18 PM
Ok, I gotcha. I still like him a lot, but I can meet you half way there. He is not an elite QB, but he is a good QB who isn't going to be the reason we lose very often and when our offense clicks, he can make us better. But I, like you, wish he were more of a run and gun type QB. A guy that could just will the offense better. He's not. He's a capable guy that helps a good team, not a guy that MAKES a good team. With the right help I am confident in our offense. But the O line will have to be the first priority. I'm interested in seeing if Pioli and Hunt see it and draft the same way I do.

You'd mentioned that Smith plays to the level around him. The niners are one game away from the Super Bowl so he's got to be playing at a higher level than Cassel. In the game against the Saints Smith had two monsterous plays, one was a 30+ yard scamper for a TD. The other was an over the shoulder TD pass as the guy was a step from running out of bounds. Both are plays that Cassel rarely makes and if he does it isn't against playoff teams.

I do like that Cassel plays with a chip on his shoulder. The guy is tough, determined and wants to win. With that being said every NFL player should be like that. My biggest concern with Cassel is that he's a game manager. If you ask him to go out there and win the football game he might but probably won't. We're a run dominant team for a reason. When we get behind and have to stop running I don't think we have a win. Maybe I'm wrong but off hand I can't remember a single time when we've done that. You can't say the Colts game this year because we kept running the entire game and Indy was horrible this year.

Overall I just don't think that Cassel is going to be the QB to get us over the hump. He's shown hints at being good but then goes on to hold on to the ball to long, throw inacurrate passes or panics at the first sign of pressure because he held on to the ball to long. As fig said, Cassel had more than two times the sacks that Brady did with the exact same Pats line in 2008. Again to go along with fig the same Pats team was probably one play away from being 19-0 and the same team the next year went 11-5. To me that doesn't say good that just says that the team around him did about as good as they were going to do with an average QB.

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 03:18 PM
Well, I, unlike you two apparently, don't discount his 11-5 season and his Pro Bowl season last year when we have a brutally damaged offense this year. There is something to be said for perspective. And in the perspective of his 4 years, he has proven to be a damn reliable QB. Elite? Nope, but certainly very good with a little help from his team-like all the others mentioned above.

OPLookn
01-19-2012, 03:27 PM
Over pretty much every other QB in the league, except the clear top 5 guys. I think we need to hang on to him. Look, a scheme made a bad QB like Tebow look good and get him to the playoffs. The right scheme and personnel will allow Cassel to look like an All Pro-again.

You do know that All-Pro = most fan votes and has nothing to do with talent or ability right?

Look I wish we were talking about Cassel and being in the top 10, I really do. But with the same offensive line in nine games Cassel had 22 sacks....22! Orton in 3 games had...1, triple that to 3 sacks over 9 for statistical averaging. I know you can't do that and be fair but you can clearly see that Cassel has issues and is sacked way to much. Heck even Palko only had 11 sacks in 6 games.

Bottom line Cassel didn't have a good year. I get that but to say he's close to top 5 or even hinting that he's top 10 is ludicrous. No, I don't mean the rapper.

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 03:29 PM
Well, I, unlike you two apparently, don't discount his 11-5 season and his Pro Bowl season last year when we have a brutally damaged offense this year. There is something to be said for perspective. And in the perspective of his 4 years, he has proven to be a damn reliable QB. Elite? Nope, but certainly very good with a little help from his team-like all the others mentioned above.

Your discounting Tom Brady getting hurt so he could play, the Patriots offense, and the Chiefs number 1 run game last year, and once again Tom Brady getting hurt so he could play in the pro-bowl. I didn't say Matt Cassel is crap but according to you he is the 6th best QB in the league which is just untrue.

OPLookn
01-19-2012, 03:34 PM
Well, I, unlike you two apparently, don't discount his 11-5 season and his Pro Bowl season last year when we have a brutally damaged offense this year. There is something to be said for perspective. And in the perspective of his 4 years, he has proven to be a damn reliable QB. Elite? Nope, but certainly very good with a little help from his team-like all the others mentioned above.

First off we went 10-6. Secondly as I've said before, Pro Bowl != good, great or stud QB. It simply means people voted for you.

In perspective Cassel had an unbelievable team around him in 2008 that almost went 19-0 in the previous season. He absolutely should have been 11-5 if not better. In 2009 I have no delusions that we sucked and that it wasn't a year to even bother evaluating his play. In 2010 we went up against some of the worst pass defenses the league had. Against some of the average or better pass defenses Cassel didn't do much of anything. This year he's back to mediocre at best.

Looking at those things and granted that's just a scratch of the surface I don't know how it can be said that in perspective he's a damn good QB. To me in perspective he's a below average QB against decent to good teams. That's just my opinion though and you have yours.

:bananen_smilies046:

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 03:36 PM
Mmmmm, no, I think he would be around 8-12 in the league. I just think those who are better passers than him would not do any better than him with what we have to work with, so there is no sense in risking such a big change when Cassel has proven, at least, that when given a good team around him, he can win and be a very good QB. I think I am giving a fair assessment. I am not saying he is great, but in the right situation has done some really great things.

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 03:51 PM
Mmmmm, no, I think he would be around 8-12 in the league. I just think those who are better passers than him would not do any better than him with what we have to work with, so there is no sense in risking such a big change when Cassel has proven, at least, that when given a good team around him, he can win and be a very good QB. I think I am giving a fair assessment. I am not saying he is great, but in the right situation has done some really great things.

8-12 so lets just say "in your mind" he's tenth best. So who are the 9 guys better then Cassel?

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 04:04 PM
I listed the 5/6 that I know are better than him. There are 3 or 4 guys that an argument can be made, but it is apples to oranges unless they are in an equally abysmal offense to Cassel, which is why I say I'd rather have who we have and the known quantity he is. Am I not being clear?

OPLookn
01-19-2012, 04:07 PM
I listed the 5/6 that I know are better than him. There are 3 or 4 guys that an argument can be made, but it is apples to oranges unless they are in an equally abysmal offense to Cassel, which is why I say I'd rather have who we have and the known quantity he is. Am I not being clear?

I thought both of you were being perfectly clear. You said he was 8-12th and fig asked you to list who the other 9 before him were. Now you're saying that you can name 5 or 6 but don't want to list the others. I'm curious to see your list regardless of apples or oranges. I think we're all savvy enough here to know who does what in what offense and plays to their scheme. Since you said 8-12th I want to know who the other 11 QB's are before Cassel. It's just 11 names and that should be pretty clear.

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 04:10 PM
I think that there is an argument to be made for Flacco, Romo, Rivers(though he now probably isn't as good as Cassel-but in the right scheme could still be better with his experience) and Roethlesberger(again-same as Rivers).

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 04:16 PM
Um, San Diego and Raiders had virtually the same schedule and Cassel won more games. Next silly point?

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 04:20 PM
I am talking about cassel's play. It has been absolutely horrible the past 3 seasons against average to great teams. That is why he is not a franchise qb, hes not worthy of a lengthy deal for a ton of money. He shouldnt even be starting. For us to to be competitive we need a qb who can take us places and actually show us that he can play well against good teams

So the whole team putting up pathetic stats has no bearing? Cassel alone is responsible for the whole team failing? No myopic view there.

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 04:22 PM
Um, San Diego and Raiders had virtually the same schedule and Cassel won more games. Next silly point?

Not really, each team had 2 different games on their schedule.

Chargers: Patriots, @Bengals
Raiders: Dolphins, @Steelers,
Chiefs: @Browns, Buffalo

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 04:25 PM
The Bungles and Fish stunk and they both lost the other games. So those 2 out of 16 games are proving my point.

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 04:28 PM
The Bungles and Fish stunk and they both lost the other games. So those 2 out of 16 games are proving my point.

Not really...if the Chargers play the Bills instead of the Patriots, they win the division. As I recall, they had all tiebreakers last year.

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 04:41 PM
Cassels combined rating against teams with .500 records or better was 64 in 2010 and 47 this year. That isn't going to get it done, especially for a qb who makes HUGE money, more money than drew brees

He does crap the bed in big games. Part of Cassel's problem is the inconsistency at Offensive Coordinator. But his biggest problems stem from:

1.) Being unable to advance through his progressions if his first look is covered.
2.) Being inaccurate
3.) Weak arm

Of those 3 things, only the first one is something that a QB can really make strides to improve on. Accuracy can be improved upon some, but it's more of a natural ability.

I've come to terms that Cassel will probably be our QB next year though. He's going to need a great supporting cast around him for this team to make a run in the playoffs. The defense will certainly have to continue making strides. The only way a Cassel led team will be a Super Bowl contender is with a strong run game and phenomenal defense (see the 49ers of this year).

azchiefsfan
01-19-2012, 04:42 PM
I agree. I think he will do better with a healthy team around him. Look, if Orton does better with the same cast of characters this year in camp. I think we go with him. Or any other prospect they bring in. I think his terrible numbers this year is a manifestation of the whole team struggling. But if he doesn't show any better this year, then maybe he should replaced. But I look around the league and only see a handful that we can point to and say, "He would have done better" with any certainty.

Chief Concerns
01-19-2012, 04:45 PM
I may agree with you, but what options do we have? Orton? It's more of the same stuff. Trade up for RG3? Miami will do it first. Get Peyton Manning? If he is released, he won't be healthy enough. Another rookie QB? Stanzi?

Osweiler is coming out. We could trade down with Cleveland, get their 1st- and 2nd-round picks, draft Osweiler with the first pick(22nd overall). Trade Cassel and a 4th-round pick, for a 2nd-round-pick. Re-sign Orton and go into camp with Orton, Stanzi, and Osweiler.

:kc:

figcrostic
01-19-2012, 04:50 PM
Um, San Diego and Raiders had virtually the same schedule and Cassel won more games. Next silly point?

Then he loses JC and looks like a bum.

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 04:55 PM
Please stop with the OC excuses, Orton came in against Green bay with less than a week of practice, but i dont want to talk about that

It's a legitimate excuse. Orton averaged 13 points a game, with the most (19) coming against a Packers team that has one of the worst defenses in the league. He was far from phenomenal. 1 Touchdown, 2 INTs in those 3 games. You don't think he would be better if he knew the system a little better? Do you know where 13 points a game would rank over the full season? 31st (only better than the Rams 12.1).

The same is true for Alex Smith. 6 offensive coordinators in 7 years. And finally, FINALLY, he's starting to show something.

You don't think a quarterback has much more success when he remains in the same system for multiple years instead of learning a new one every year?

Chief Concerns
01-19-2012, 04:58 PM
Then he loses JC and looks like a bum.

Exactly. Any good play that's come from Cassel is a product of the players around him. We need a QB who's play is complimented by the rest of the team's play. With Cassel, there is seldom anything to compliment.

:kc:

Chief Concerns
01-19-2012, 05:03 PM
It's a legitimate excuse. Orton averaged 13 points a game, with the most (19) coming against a Packers team that has one of the worst defenses in the league. He was far from phenomenal. 1 Touchdown, 2 INTs in those 3 games. You don't think he would be better if he knew the system a little better? Do you know where 13 points a game would rank over the full season? 31st (only better than the Rams 12.1).

The same is true for Alex Smith. 6 offensive coordinators in 7 years. And finally, FINALLY, he's starting to show something.

You don't think a quarterback has much more success when he remains in the same system for multiple years instead of learning a new one every year?


Which is why we need to bring in and develop a franchise QB. That player may be Stanzi. Just need to wait on him but we don't need to throw season(s) out the window with Cassel in the meantime.

:kc:

matthewschiefs
01-19-2012, 05:12 PM
Um, San Diego and Raiders had virtually the same schedule and Cassel won more games. Next silly point?

THIS.

Three7s
01-19-2012, 05:32 PM
Seriously, how many times do I need to point this out for the "true fans"?

Cassel is a below average quarterback. He doesn't know how to audible properly. He doesn't go through progressions because he becomes scare of the phantom pass rush. He's terrible at setting up the O-line protection schemes.

That's just the pre-pass stuff. He commonly throws behind receivers, under-throws passes due to his terribad arm, and is one of the worst QBs at selling the screen that I've ever seen.

BUT WAIT GAIZ, SINCE HE LOCKS ON TO HIS PRIMARY RECEIVER AND HE MIRACULOUSLY BREAKS OPEN AND GETS HIM THE BALL, HE MUST BE GOOD!!!!!

He made the freaking Bills and Dolphins look like the greatest defenses of all time. I don't care about injuries. Rivers and Peyton Manning have dealt with way more injuries than Cassel and they get by.

Then the OC excuses come along. Guess what? Most elite QBs ARE the OC. The "actual OC" gives a play and an option of what to audible to based on defense, then they do it. CASSEL HAS NEVER DONE THIS ON A CONSISTENT BASIS!

I guess people are so used to mediocrity that they accept it and are okay with it. Me? I want a REAL QB that can lead this team to a freaking SB!

Side note:

No way is Cassel better than Rivers, Stafford, andRoethlisburger. Just no way.

Hayvern
01-19-2012, 05:48 PM
Honestly, I don't see offensive coordinator being the problem here. Everyone wants to say that we somehow have an issue because the system changes with each new oc. I say hockey pucks! One constant through all of this is Todd Haley. It is supposed to be Todd's system is it not? Well he has been here, he has been in control, if the system is changing, then it is his system that is changing.

And even if the system does change, there are just too many issues to overlook. Missing wide open receivers, not going through progressions, happy feet, these ate issues that maybe are a product of a crappy team being around him, but are things you would expect to see some improvement on,

The offense this year was pathetic, down right absolutely pathetic and a lot of that resides on cassels shoulders.

I am w idling to give him one more year to prove me wrong, mainly because I believe that is what the leaders of the team are going to do, bu he has to showed remarkable improvement.

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 05:56 PM
I'm not pinning the offensive coordinator as the sole reason for Matt Cassel's problems. It's definitely not, but it's part of it. I'm basing most of my argument off of what Rich Gannon said on his radio show. He's talked about the difficulties of new OC's coming in (for both Cassel and Alex Smith). Being a former QB, I would assume he can speak to this better than any of us can.

The biggest thing Rich talked about this year was who was calling the plays. Haley said Bill Muir was calling the plays, but he kept noting how slow the plays were coming in. From what Rich said, it was like this (I'm paraphrasing):

"Muir calls the play down to Zorn, Zorn relays it to Cassel, but at some point Haley had chances to overrule the play call. It's just a big mess. I've watched Matt on numerous occasions trying to signal to the sidelines to get the play in."



Listen, everyone else's points are well taken, Cassel has other fundamental flaws. But the environment he was in last year was awful. I think he will be better now that Haley is gone.

I'm not a big Matt Cassel supporter either, I 100% agree we need to get some competition in there, whether it's through the draft or free agency. I've just come to terms with the fact that he'll probably be the starter in week 1 next year, that's all. And if that's the case, he's the quarterback of my favorite team, so I'm rooting for him.

Three7s
01-19-2012, 06:05 PM
I'm not pinning the offensive coordinator as the sole reason for Matt Cassel's problems. It's definitely not, but it's part of it. I'm basing most of my argument off of what Rich Gannon said on his radio show. He's talked about the difficulties of new OC's coming in (for both Cassel and Alex Smith). Being a former QB, I would assume he can speak to this better than any of us can.

The biggest thing Rich talked about this year was who was calling the plays. Haley said Bill Muir was calling the plays, but he kept noting how slow the plays were coming in. From what Rich said, it was like this (I'm paraphrasing):

"Muir calls the play down to Zorn, Zorn relays it to Cassel, but at some point Haley had chances to overrule the play call. It's just a big mess. I've watched Matt on numerous occasions trying to signal to the sidelines to get the play in."



Listen, everyone else's points are well taken, Cassel has other fundamental flaws. But the environment he was in last year was awful. I think he will be better now that Haley is gone.

I'm not a big Matt Cassel supporter either, I 100% agree we need to get some competition in there, whether it's through the draft or free agency. I've just come to terms with the fact that he'll probably be the starter in week 1 next year, that's all. And if that's the case, he's the quarterback of my favorite team, so I'm rooting for him.
I'll admit, the time it took to get the play in is a valid excuse. I have also come to terms with Cassel being here, but it doesn't mean I like it. Naturally, if he's amazing next year, I'll be the first to eat crow gladly. I just don't see it happening.

Ryfo18
01-19-2012, 06:10 PM
I'll admit, the time it took to get the play in is a valid excuse. I have also come to terms with Cassel being here, but it doesn't mean I like it. Naturally, if he's amazing next year, I'll be the first to eat crow gladly. I just don't see it happening.

Ditto

KCCF
01-19-2012, 06:30 PM
Yes. Call me insane. Everyone mentioned looked like Ryan Leaf when their teams struggled. It would not be an improvement to what we have.



You can honestly tell me you'd rather have cassell.....than Stafford?Lol. I would much rather have Stafford. Better arm, younger played well this year and I think he can still improve. What does cassell have to look forward to? Being another year older? I mean I feel like cassell can be good again with a solid line and oc but he's no Stafford.

TopekaRoy
01-19-2012, 06:55 PM
Interesting article and interesting thread.

I'm not a big fan of using stats to compare QBs. One QB can be playing "lights out" to put up certain numbers, while another QB with a much better offense could actually be holding his team back in putting up similar numbers. However, in this case I feel the comparisons between Smith and Cassel are accurate.

But that comparison goes beyond just the quarterbacks. I think the 49ers are very much the team the Chiefs should have been this year, and could have been with better coaching and without all the injuries.

Both teams play in a weak conference. Both rely on an excellent defense and a strong running game to win. Both QBs are "game managers" who rely on methodically moving the ball down the field and eating up clock to keep opposing offenses off the field and give their defenses time to rest.

Before the season started, I thought the Chiefs were a 10-6 team. Without the injuries and with better play calling I still think we would have gone 10-6 or 11-5 this year. With a new OC, and improved O-line and our star players returning (hopefully 100% healthy), I think we can compete with anyone next year.

It's no surprise that Harbaugh, a former QB, has helped Smith become a better QB, this year. It's also no surprise that, coming from the Super Bowl Bears he has recognized the importance of having a great defense to win or at least be in a position to win games. People say you don't need a great defense to win in the NFL anymore, but I don't believe that, especially in the playoffs. Green Bay and New Orleans are both watching the NFC Championship game this year instead of playing in it, because they lost to teams with better defenses.

You win games by scoring more points than your opponent and there are 2 ways to do that. You can either have a great offense and a good defense, or have a great defense and a good offense.

Our offense can be good next year with the right moves, even with Cassel at the helm. Our defense is great, already--so good that if we can put up 14 or 17 points we will probably win the game.

It's interesting that the article poses the question "Is Cassel an elite quarterback?" and then compares him to Alex Smith to make it's case. I don't consider Smith an elite QB, nor do I think Cassel will be one. If the 49ers go on to win the Super Bowl, does that make Smith an elite QB? Not in my eyes, but it does mean he is good enough to win it all.

And so is Cassel. The Chiefs are carbon copies of the 49ers; or at least they can be.

I don't really care for the term "elite quarterback." To me that is a QB who can make a crappy team average, or make an average team good. I'd rather have a team that is already good with a QB who can get the job done and not screw things up. Of course it would be nice to have both, but you can win without an elite QB You just need better players around him.

tornadospotter
01-19-2012, 10:00 PM
All I can say is time will tell the story, but so far he is no Trent and dang sure no Lenny, yet time will tell, it always does. I am getting tired of waiting.

tornadospotter
01-19-2012, 10:10 PM
Honestly, I don't see offensive coordinator being the problem here. Everyone wants to say that we somehow have an issue because the system changes with each new oc. I say hockey pucks! One constant through all of this is Todd Haley. It is supposed to be Todd's system is it not? Well he has been here, he has been in control, if the system is changing, then it is his system that is changing.

And even if the system does change, there are just too many issues to overlook. Missing wide open receivers, not going through progressions, happy feet, these ate issues that maybe are a product of a crappy team being around him, but are things you would expect to see some improvement on,

The offense this year was pathetic, down right absolutely pathetic and a lot of that resides on cassels shoulders.

I am w idling to give him one more year to prove me wrong, mainly because I believe that is what the leaders of the team are going to do, bu he has to showed remarkable improvement.
Lets not forget the low hard throws, some knocked down at the line of scrimmage. I still stick to what I believe about Matt. He throws a hard to catch pass, and gets to many batted down. He is no Trent yet, and that is what we need.

2010chiefs
01-19-2012, 10:47 PM
Well at least Romeo proved that he will yank a QB that can't produce. He did it with Palko and I hope he'll do it with Cassel next year if and when he starts the ol Cassel shuffle before taking a sack. I would really love to see Orton in case wee need him sooner then later.

chief31
01-20-2012, 12:30 AM
I am so tired of hearing about cassel's 2010 season. If you gave him in 2010 the strength of schedule that the chiefs played in 11 he would have the atrocious numbers he had in 11.

You take Peyton Manning from The Colts' offense, and expect the rest to look terrible.

You take Barry Sanders from The Lions' offense, and expect to see them look horrible.

You take Antonio Gates away from Phillip Rivers, and expect to see him have a bad year,

You take Jamaal Charles from The Chiefs' offense, expect to see them look bad.

You take Tom Brady away from The Patriots' offense, then expect to see them look look like garbage too..... Unless Matt Cassel is there to fill the void, that is.

When your offense is dependent upon the skills of a particular player, and then that player is removed, you wind up with a broken offense.






Not really, each team had 2 different games on their schedule.

Chargers: Patriots, @Bengals
Raiders: Dolphins, @Steelers,
Chiefs: @Browns, Buffalo

So you don't think that 14 matching opponents, out of sixteen games, is virtually the same?

okikcfan
01-20-2012, 01:20 AM
Cassels combined rating against teams with .500 records or better was 64 in 2010 and 47 this year. That isn't going to get it done, especially for a qb who makes HUGE money, more money than drew brees

Cassel=12.2 mil, Bree's=7.3 mil, Brady=5.7 mil, Romo=9.0 mil, Rivers=8.4 mill all for the 2011 season, now what is wrong with this picture?:beat_DeadHorse:

okikcfan
01-20-2012, 01:26 AM
Well at least Romeo proved that he will yank a QB that can't produce. He did it with Palko and I hope he'll do it with Cassel next year if and when he starts the ol Cassel shuffle before taking a sack. I would really love to see Orton in case wee need him sooner then later.

I really don't understand why everyone say's this. He played three games, he's really no better than Cassel, if you want to replace Cassel then get a real QB, not another has been. Just sayin...:banghead:

doobs_05
01-20-2012, 02:40 AM
Seriously, how many times do I need to point this out for the "true fans"?

Cassel is a below average quarterback. He doesn't know how to audible properly. He doesn't go through progressions because he becomes scare of the phantom pass rush. He's terrible at setting up the O-line protection schemes.

That's just the pre-pass stuff. He commonly throws behind receivers, under-throws passes due to his terribad arm, and is one of the worst QBs at selling the screen that I've ever seen.

BUT WAIT GAIZ, SINCE HE LOCKS ON TO HIS PRIMARY RECEIVER AND HE MIRACULOUSLY BREAKS OPEN AND GETS HIM THE BALL, HE MUST BE GOOD!!!!!

He made the freaking Bills and Dolphins look like the greatest defenses of all time. I don't care about injuries. Rivers and Peyton Manning have dealt with way more injuries than Cassel and they get by.

Then the OC excuses come along. Guess what? Most elite QBs ARE the OC. The "actual OC" gives a play and an option of what to audible to based on defense, then they do it. CASSEL HAS NEVER DONE THIS ON A CONSISTENT BASIS!

I guess people are so used to mediocrity that they accept it and are okay with it. Me? I want a REAL QB that can lead this team to a freaking SB!

Side note:

No way is Cassel better than Rivers, Stafford, andRoethlisburger. Just no way.

again QFT!!

OPLookn
01-20-2012, 11:43 AM
Saying that Smith is a "game manager" and then comparing him to Cassel isn't exactly true. Smith is version 2.0 of Cassel. Anyone who watched the Saints/49ers game would agree with me. Smith made a spectacular over the shoulder pass for a TD that was only in a spot where the receiver could catch it. Give me one prime time throw in a monster game like that that Cassel has given us. Sure when it's routine and doesn't mean anything Cassel is fine.

The other thing one is where Smith had a 30+ yard TD run that had he had another 40 yards I don't think he still would have been caught. When was the last time Cassel had a scamper like that. Heck I'll even ask the question of if Cassel's ever had a 20 yard TD scamper. Anyone know?

2010chiefs
01-20-2012, 11:48 PM
Nope!

Three7s
01-20-2012, 11:52 PM
I dont know about cassel's longest rush but the day he goes into a playoff game and throws for 300 yards and 3 td's then you can compare him to alex smith
You can compare him to any franchise QB if he does that on a regular basis. Fact is Cassel has never done it with any consistency, or against good teams.

bricooper78
01-21-2012, 12:33 AM
You can compare him to any franchise QB if he does that on a regular basis. Fact is Cassel has never done it with any consistency, or against good teams.

Thats a pretty good statement.


The game manager talk, if you're a running team, historically we are, then run the ball. You don't need 5 wide outs that run a 4.2 40, Charles and Sproles, Brady, and Brees as a backup. If you run the ball, run it. And have a QB that manages the gameplan, which is to not LOSE THE GAME for you, if that's simply a game manager, okay, fine.

Attitude is everything, and RAC is going to get the O online with the D hopefully, if we run it and have a QB that checkdowns, fine. As long as the TD to INT is low, and he's not causing stupid turnovers, and we WIN, what's the problem with that? We don't have to rewrite the record books, just win games, against good teams, which you guys are right, we haven't done lately.

Canada
01-21-2012, 12:48 AM
I dont know about cassel's longest rush but the day he goes into a playoff game and throws for 300 yards and 3 td's then you can compare him to alex smithIt took Alex Smith 6 Years to get there...do you watch football at all?

nigeriannightmare
01-21-2012, 12:51 AM
From the people that attended what practices we had in st joe, my entire wifes family is from there and shes a graduate of mo west all said stanzi looked good, what i saw in the preseason was good, im not sure where all this stanzi isnt gonna cut is coming from. I went to a practice there were maybr a 100 ppl there and theres no way stanzi shoulda been third string.

Canada
01-21-2012, 11:49 AM
So what? People want to make comparisons to alex smith, smith has gone in and thrown for 300 yards and 3 td's won and put his team in the nfc title game. Has cassel done that? Until he does, you cant compare him to alex smith

Come on man. Are you really this simple? U know that game was the first 300 yard game smith has had all season right? So by your logic, Cassel should get 6 years to throw 300 yards in a playoff game. Gotcha!!

Alex Smith and Kyle Orton. You sure are some talent evaluator of the QB spot. I hear jamarcus russel is available too!!

Canada
01-21-2012, 11:51 AM
So what? People want to make comparisons to alex smith, smith has gone in and thrown for 300 yards and 3 td's won and put his team in the nfc title game. Has cassel done that? Until he does, you cant compare him to alex smith...and no, Cassel has not put his team in the NFC title game. He plays in the AFC...dumbas$

chief31
01-21-2012, 12:26 PM
I dont know about cassel's longest rush but the day he goes into a playoff game and throws for 300 yards and 3 td's then you can compare him to alex smith

The comparison is because Alex Smith was labelled a poor QB by the masses, and they were wrong.

Matt Cassel is in a very similar position to Alex Smith.

The comparison is actually quite unfair....... to Matt Cassel.

To date, Smith has never thrown for more than 18 TDs in any of his six seasons as a starter.

Smith had never thrown for as many yards in a season, in his first five, as Matt Cassel had in every season he had started. And even Smith's 2011 is less than Cassel's best.

Prior to this season, Smith had thrown more INTs than TDs for his career. Cassel has thrown more TDs than INTs in every season he has started.

Ryfo18
01-21-2012, 01:05 PM
You take Peyton Manning from The Colts' offense, and expect the rest to look terrible.

You take Barry Sanders from The Lions' offense, and expect to see them look horrible.

You take Antonio Gates away from Phillip Rivers, and expect to see him have a bad year,

You take Jamaal Charles from The Chiefs' offense, expect to see them look bad.

You take Tom Brady away from The Patriots' offense, then expect to see them look look like garbage too..... Unless Matt Cassel is there to fill the void, that is.

When your offense is dependent upon the skills of a particular player, and then that player is removed, you wind up with a broken offense.







So you don't think that 14 matching opponents, out of sixteen games, is virtually the same?



My point was that if the Chiefs play the Patriots and the Chargers play the Bills, we likely don't win the west. So yes, it does make a difference.

nigeriannightmare
01-21-2012, 04:42 PM
My point was that if the Chiefs play the Patriots and the Chargers play the Bills, we likely don't win the west. So yes, it does make a difference.

They lost to the seahawks and the rams both of whom we beat.....so sying they were gonna beat the bills isnt a given,but i get your point 2 games in baseball or basketball dont mwan as much 2 ganes in football can be huge.

nigeriannightmare
01-21-2012, 04:43 PM
I bet that all four afc west teams had the 4 weakest schedules in the league.

chief31
01-21-2012, 04:59 PM
My point was that if the Chiefs play the Patriots and the Chargers play the Bills, we likely don't win the west. So yes, it does make a difference.

I agree. The schedule favored us, though quite slightly.

But the statement that the schedules were virtually the same is completely true.

Canada
01-21-2012, 05:41 PM
My point was that if the Chiefs play the Patriots and the Chargers play the Bills, we likely don't win the west. So yes, it does make a difference.If my mother had balls shed be my dad. You cant fault the team for the schedule they got. No one knows how strong or weak a schedule is until the season is over anyways.

matthewschiefs
01-21-2012, 05:58 PM
...and no, Cassel has not put his team in the NFC title game. He plays in the AFC...dumbas$

That's just an excuse theres no reason this team should not be in the NFC and AFC title games both Every superbowl should be the Chiefs vs the Chiefs. FIRE PIOLI. See I Am smart :D

okikcfan
01-21-2012, 06:35 PM
I have friends that are 49er fans and last year they felt the same way about Smith as many here fell about Cassel. They got a new head coach, Smith had performed above his normal and the have gone from last place in their division to one game away from the Superbowl. I have always said a team is as good as it's coaches, and as you know I have not been a Cassel fan but at the same time I do believe there is a CHANCE that maybe, just maybe with a good, solid OC and Crennel as our HC, Cassel could improve, I'm not sayin it will happen, but hey, ya never know......

chief31
01-22-2012, 01:33 AM
I have friends that are 49er fans and last year they felt the same way about Smith as many here fell about Cassel. They got a new head coach, Smith had performed above his normal and the have gone from last place in their division to one game away from the Superbowl. I have always said a team is as good as it's coaches, and as you know I have not been a Cassel fan but at the same time I do believe there is a CHANCE that maybe, just maybe with a good, solid OC and Crennel as our HC, Cassel could improve, I'm not sayin it will happen, but hey, ya never know......

Those 49er fans were far more justified in their nagativity toward their QB.

In his, then, five seasons, Smith had never thrown for as many yards as Cassel's least.

He had never thrown for as many TDs as Cassel's least.

He had only stared more than 10 games in one of those years (plus one season of not playing a down).

He had thrown more INTs in his career, than TDs.

And The 49ers' record for those six seasons was...6-10; 8-8; 7-9; 5-11; 7-9; 4-12 = 37-59

And, for all of those who like to complain about a players' status vs their production, Smith was a #1 overall draft choice.

I like Alex Smith, and love seeing him have some success. But, only in his seventh season in The NFL has he finally started to show anything. And, statistically, his 2011 season has still not measured up to Cassel's 2008, or 2010.

Ryfo18
01-22-2012, 03:12 AM
If my mother had balls shed be my dad. You cant fault the team for the schedule they got. No one knows how strong or weak a schedule is until the season is over anyways.

If your mother had balls, you wouldn't be my son...Son.

wolfpack
01-22-2012, 10:37 AM
We should have questioned the trade back then.If cassel was so good,even with brady would bellycheat given away 2 players for just a second?

Canada
01-22-2012, 12:00 PM
If your mother had balls, you wouldn't be my son...Son.Hey now...get of my mama....i just got off yours!! :D

chief31
01-22-2012, 12:09 PM
We should have questioned the trade back then.If cassel was so good,even with brady would bellycheat given away 2 players for just a second?

Alot of folks did.

However, The Patriots had little leeway. Cassel was a UFA, and they put their franchise tag on him to try and get something for him.

The bidding did not get too out of hand because, along with whatever trade compensation a team would offer, there was the fact that the winning bidder was on the hook for paying Franchise tag money, or signing the player to a contract. Not to mention, that all bidders knew that The Patriots were motivated sellers, as nobody wants to pay that much for their backup QB.

If you are already going to have to sign the player, then any added cost is going to be beyond what the player is able to negotiate his worth at.

But, again, many people were quite skeptical of the trade from the start.

N TX Dave
01-22-2012, 02:31 PM
He may have not been a great trade but he was a whole lot better than anything we had at the time and has been the best we have had since then with the possible exception of Orton who the juty is still out on.

bricooper78
01-22-2012, 07:59 PM
From the people that attended what practices we had in st joe, my entire wifes family is from there and shes a graduate of mo west all said stanzi looked good, what i saw in the preseason was good, im not sure where all this stanzi isnt gonna cut is coming from. I went to a practice there were maybr a 100 ppl there and theres no way stanzi shoulda been third string.

The point is now moot with orton, but you are right in the respect that Stanzi should have gotten in. Haley being his :mooning: self didn't put him in with Palko stinking up the joint.

But from watching him in college, (just down the road from IA City, was born into hawkeye fandom by default lol) Ricky isn't, stable. He is always off beat mechanically, and fundamentally unsound. Cause and effect being what they are, he ended up overthrowing longer routes, and they had weird projectory, Marvin McNutt and Tony Moeaki made Stanzi, as did the trio of running backs.
BUT, all that said, they had a system that used what the QB could do (most of the time) and they won...just like I'm saying they should do with Cassel.

figcrostic
01-23-2012, 12:38 AM
I the 49ers are going to draft a qb they can't be happy with Alex Cassel.

Three7s
01-23-2012, 11:55 AM
I the 49ers are going to draft a qb they can't be happy with Alex Cassel.
Are the Ravens happy with Matt Flacco?

Bike
01-23-2012, 12:13 PM
Are the Ravens happy with Matt Flacco?
He played well yesterday, threading double-covered receivers most of the day.

figcrostic
01-23-2012, 12:31 PM
He played well yesterday, threading double-covered receivers most of the day.

Not at all he had a few nice throws but most of them were terrible and he completed 46.2% of his passes. He didn't lose the game though Kyle Williams did.

figcrostic
01-23-2012, 12:32 PM
Are the Ravens happy with Matt Flacco?

Probably not.