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slc chief
03-28-2012, 10:11 PM
i would take him over poe anyday


NFL Draft Preview: Michael Brockers - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxk88nb4zhQ)

Seek
03-28-2012, 10:20 PM
I am personally biased against lsu dts since they have not panned out for us so far.

LOBBS
03-29-2012, 05:13 AM
I am personally biased against lsu dts since they have not panned out for us so far.

Because if you take a good look at the stats Dorsey and Jackson are one of the best 1-2 punch as 3-4 DEs? Like most people who don't really seem to understand the role of DEs in this particular defense, you really should take a look at Pro Football Focus.

Jrudi
03-29-2012, 06:45 PM
Not opposed to the idea, and certainly not a fan of Poe's... any word on how he would transition to a 3-4 NT?? dude is a 4-3 DT right now and looks like he is built solid like he would be a DE in a 3-4..not overly big like a 3-4 NT

Just wondering what the reviews are about that. if anyone has any

Seek
03-30-2012, 02:35 PM
Because if you take a good look at the stats Dorsey and Jackson are one of the best 1-2 punch as 3-4 DEs? Like most people who don't really seem to understand the role of DEs in this particular defense, you really should take a look at Pro Football Focus.

If you look at the obvious weakness of our Team losing to teams like Denver it was becuase the our Defensive line was getting pushed back 5 yards allowing everyone run on us.

We were the 26th ranked defense against the run, giving up an average of 4.2 yards a carrier. If my math is correct. That is a first down every 3 plays.

So are you telling me that this is a result of of our two Pro-bowl Line backers not doing their job, cause I would beg to differ.

Also based on the clip provided, He is only making plays by using his motor and shedding his block after the rest of the defense broke down the pocket. A lot of his plays he is being blocked back by one player and not a double team.

drstandley31
03-30-2012, 05:26 PM
If you look at the obvious weakness of our Team losing to teams like Denver it was becuase the our Defensive line was getting pushed back 5 yards allowing everyone run on us.

We were the 26th ranked defense against the run, giving up an average of 4.2 yards a carrier. If my math is correct. That is a first down every 3 plays.

So are you telling me that this is a result of of our two Pro-bowl Line backers not doing their job, cause I would beg to differ.

Also based on the clip provided, He is only making plays by using his motor and shedding his block after the rest of the defense broke down the pocket. A lot of his plays he is being blocked back by one player and not a double team.
Plus 1 on that!!!!

Xanathol
04-04-2012, 12:54 PM
If you look at the obvious weakness of our Team losing to teams like Denver it was becuase the our Defensive line was getting pushed back 5 yards allowing everyone run on us.

We were the 26th ranked defense against the run, giving up an average of 4.2 yards a carrier. If my math is correct. That is a first down every 3 plays.

So are you telling me that this is a result of of our two Pro-bowl Line backers not doing their job, cause I would beg to differ.

Also based on the clip provided, He is only making plays by using his motor and shedding his block after the rest of the defense broke down the pocket. A lot of his plays he is being blocked back by one player and not a double team.
Not this $#% again... check NFL DL tackles (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticPositionCategory=DEFENSIVE_LINEMAN&season=2011&seasonType=REG&experience=null&tabSeq=1&qualified=true&Submit=Go):

1 Jason Pierre-Paul 86
2 Ahtyba Rubin 83
3 Calais Campbell 72
4 Jared Allen 66
4 Domata Peko 66
6 Haloti Ngata 64
7 Glenn Dorsey 62
8 Phillip Taylor 59
9 Sione Pouha 58
9 Justin Smith 58
11 Antonio Garay 57
11 Jeremy Mincey 57
13 Brandon Mebane 56
13 J.J. Watt 56
15 Tyson Jackson 55


That's the rankings in the entire NFL and the Chiefs have #7 and #15 thanks to their "LSU DLs". Best yet, Dorsey is really a 4-3 DT who's had to be retrained & restrained to be a 3-4 DE... and you think he hasn't panned out?! They make up the best base 3-4 DE combo in the entire league. They account for 6.25% and 5.98% of the team's tackles, respectively - all while eating up blockers to free linebackers ( just count how many times Dorsey is doubled a game... ). Add to the fact that they don't make tackles down the field in coverage like linebackers do - their tackles all come near the line of scrimmage, and what more impact do you want? Its a base 3-4 - not a 4-3, not a hybrid like Wade Phillips runs; these guys have run responsibility each play, every play.

I'm by no means vouching for Brockers - I think he needed more time in the college - but to be disappointed in GD & TJ is flat out ridiculous.

pojote
04-04-2012, 01:51 PM
If you look at the obvious weakness of our Team losing to teams like Denver it was becuase the our Defensive line was getting pushed back 5 yards allowing everyone run on us.

We were the 26th ranked defense against the run, giving up an average of 4.2 yards a carrier. If my math is correct. That is a first down every 3 plays.

So are you telling me that this is a result of of our two Pro-bowl Line backers not doing their job, cause I would beg to differ.

Also based on the clip provided, He is only making plays by using his motor and shedding his block after the rest of the defense broke down the pocket. A lot of his plays he is being blocked back by one player and not a double team.

You didn't watched that game. Denver was running off tackle most of the time. Most of those were draw plays, leaving all exterior open.

chiefnut
04-04-2012, 03:42 PM
bleacher report top DE's which Dorsey and Jackson are not DT's
1 Peppers
2 Freeney
3 Allen
4 Umenyora
5 Tuck
6 Abraham
7 seymore
8 Cole
9 Mathis
10 Smith, Justin
11 Dumervil
12 Babin
13 Johnson
14 Dockett
15 Dunlap
16 Keisel
17 Smith, Aaron
18 Castillo
19 Clemons



no Dorsey or Jackson on the list...and yes some are in 3-4 schemes

pojote
04-04-2012, 04:51 PM
Bleacher Report makes rankings based on soft criteria. It's very debatable. I prefer PFF, at least they use hard criteria.

Seek
04-04-2012, 05:34 PM
You didn't watched that game. Denver was running off tackle most of the time. Most of those were draw plays, leaving all exterior open.

I did watch the game. I was there as a season ticket holder watching our team getting destroyed at the line of scrimmage and No they were not draw plays. I did see Denver holding Dorsey and Jackson an aweful lot, but they were still getting pushed back. Every run, was a three yard gain before any contact was made and every run we had was at the line of scrimmage.

Tebow threw the ball like 8 freaking times and that was only when we had actually stopped them for a 3rd and long. They successfully ran for 4 to 5 yards every dang play and what I thought was good defense was still giving up 4 yards because they were getting pushed back.

chiefnut
04-04-2012, 05:38 PM
find a report that ranks only 3-4 DE's and NT's, see if Dorsey and Jackson are in the top 12 since only 12 teams use the 3-4. that would put them in the top 50%.

pojote
04-04-2012, 05:44 PM
find a report that ranks only 3-4 DE's and NT's, see if Dorsey and Jackson are in the top 12 since only 12 teams use the 3-4. that would put them in the top 50%.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/03/09/2011-run-stop-percentage-3-4-defensive-ends/

TopekaRoy
04-04-2012, 06:05 PM
bleacher report top DE's which Dorsey and Jackson are not DT's
1 Peppers
2 Freeney
3 Allen
4 Umenyora
5 Tuck
6 Abraham
7 seymore
8 Cole
9 Mathis
10 Smith, Justin
11 Dumervil
12 Babin
13 Johnson
14 Dockett
15 Dunlap
16 Keisel
17 Smith, Aaron
18 Castillo
19 Clemons



no Dorsey or Jackson on the list...and yes some are in 3-4 schemes

Bleacher Report!?

Seriously ... Bleacher Report?

All those articles are submitted by fans. Occasionaly you will find a knowledgeable, well written article, but not very often. Anybody can write for Bleacher Report--you, me, people that don't even watch or like football--anyone.

I agree with Julius Peppers at #1, though. :D

Chiefster
04-04-2012, 11:39 PM
Bleacher Report!?

Seriously ... Bleacher Report?

All those articles are submitted by fans. Occasionaly you will find a knowledgeable, well written article, but not very often. Anybody can write for Bleacher Report--you, me, people that don't even watch or like football--anyone.

I agree with Julius Peppers at #1, though. :D

Exactly!

Me no likey Bleacher Report! :11: :D

OPLookn
04-05-2012, 11:42 AM
I did watch the game. I was there as a season ticket holder watching our team getting destroyed at the line of scrimmage and No they were not draw plays. I did see Denver holding Dorsey and Jackson an aweful lot, but they were still getting pushed back. Every run, was a three yard gain before any contact was made and every run we had was at the line of scrimmage.

Tebow threw the ball like 8 freaking times and that was only when we had actually stopped them for a 3rd and long. They successfully ran for 4 to 5 yards every dang play and what I thought was good defense was still giving up 4 yards because they were getting pushed back.

When you're double teamed and being held all day you're going to give up some yards. I was at the game too and apparently we saw two different things. We both saw them getting 4 to 5 yards every play (average was 4.4 yards) for FIFTY FIVE running plays. I'll say that again but with number 55 running plays! So for the game they had 244 yards rushing.

If you're going to go based on average per play did the Chiefs beat their butts since we got 5.6 yards per play? I'll be the first to admit that 244 yards is a lot of rushing yards but not when you compare it against how often a team usually runs the ball. In 2011 there were 508 rushing attempts against the Chiefs D for an average of 4.2 yards per play and 132 yards per game. That means on average a team ran the ball 32 times per game. Denver ran it 55 times! Yeah, they're going to have more rushing yards. We were 11th in the NFL for yards allowed per game. What more do you want?

Seek
04-05-2012, 01:44 PM
When you're double teamed and being held all day you're going to give up some yards. I was at the game too and apparently we saw two different things. We both saw them getting 4 to 5 yards every play (average was 4.4 yards) for FIFTY FIVE running plays. I'll say that again but with number 55 running plays! So for the game they had 244 yards rushing.

If you're going to go based on average per play did the Chiefs beat their butts since we got 5.6 yards per play? I'll be the first to admit that 244 yards is a lot of rushing yards but not when you compare it against how often a team usually runs the ball. In 2011 there were 508 rushing attempts against the Chiefs D for an average of 4.2 yards per play and 132 yards per game. That means on average a team ran the ball 32 times per game. Denver ran it 55 times! Yeah, they're going to have more rushing yards. We were 11th in the NFL for yards allowed per game. What more do you want?

I guess we did see different games, as you are supporting my arguement of why I don't want another LSU D Linemand. 55 Running plays, means your defensive line is getting beat and you CANT stop the run so they keep running it until we stopped them. Throw what ever stats you want to about Dorsey or Jackson out there to beat around the bush, but when it is your sole job is to hold the line and take up blockers for your line backers to make plays and you let a team run the ball 55 times in a game, and throw only 8 times. You are not doing your job adequately.

Your stats about 11th in NFL for yards is a moot stat in regards to how adequate Jackson and Dorsey were on the D line. Obviously teams running the ball will get less yards than teams throwing the ball, specially when our strength was our secondary. Being the 26th ranked defense against the run supports that.

OPLookn
04-05-2012, 01:57 PM
I guess we did see different games, as you are supporting my arguement of why I don't want another LSU D Linemand. 55 Running plays, means your defensive line is getting beat and you CANT stop the run so they keep running it until we stopped them. Throw what ever stats you want to about Dorsey or Jackson out there to beat around the bush, but when it is your sole job is to hold the line and take up blockers for your line backers to make plays and you let a team run the ball 55 times in a game, and throw only 8 times. You are not doing your job adequately.

Your stats about 11th in NFL for yards is a moot stat in regards to how adequate Jackson and Dorsey were on the D line. Obviously teams running the ball will get less yards than teams throwing the ball, specially when our strength was our secondary. Being the 26th ranked defense against the run supports that.

No, running the ball 55 times in a game means you have Tebow as your QB. The guy can't throw the ball so they have to run.

I don't want another LSU D lineman because Brockers is a redshirt freshman who had one good year. The guy has boom or bust written all over him. No thanks, pass. I want a guy that is a safe pick, a plug me right into a starting position pick.

As for 26th in rushing defense...c'mon now. Berry was out all year, our offense was anemic at best which means the D is going to spend more time on the field. That's two fold, more plays are going to be run against our D making them get tired faster and the stats are going to get skewed.

In 2011 the Chiefs were 26th in rushing defense. In 2010 with Berry and a strong running game they were 16th. That was with a 2nd year DE (Jackson), a 3rd year DE (Dorsey) and two rookie safeties. If you really can't see that we're going to be better with everyone back with seasoned vets and an offense that can march the ball more than a 3 & out then we really don't have much more to talk about.

Seek
04-05-2012, 02:27 PM
No, running the ball 55 times in a game means you have Tebow as your QB. The guy can't throw the ball so they have to run.

I don't want another LSU D lineman because Brockers is a redshirt freshman who had one good year. The guy has boom or bust written all over him. No thanks, pass. I want a guy that is a safe pick, a plug me right into a starting position pick.

As for 26th in rushing defense...c'mon now. Berry was out all year, our offense was anemic at best which means the D is going to spend more time on the field. That's two fold, more plays are going to be run against our D making them get tired faster and the stats are going to get skewed.

In 2011 the Chiefs were 26th in rushing defense. In 2010 with Berry and a strong running game they were 16th. That was with a 2nd year DE (Jackson), a 3rd year DE (Dorsey) and two rookie safeties. If you really can't see that we're going to be better with everyone back with seasoned vets and an offense that can march the ball more than a 3 & out then we really don't have much more to talk about.

Don't agree with you and never will and I am not even sure you are arguing against my point but rather in defense of the entire defense in whole which is not my debate. The defensive line was man handled by Denver which is why they were able to run the ball 55 times. Don't get man hanlded and stop them from running the ball and Denver has to punt or throw. Eric Berry does not stop the run all by himself and does not prevent our defensive line from getting knocked back for 4 yards allowing denver to run a dive for 3 yards before contact making it a 4 yard gain. In the game againt Denver in Denver, the Chiefs were night and day better about this and held their line much better.

Point of my argument was that I was not in favor of another LSU D lineman as the two we have so far, are not fairing to the best of my desires and any stat anyone want me to look at goes out the door from my own personal judgement watching that Home Denver game.

OPLookn
04-05-2012, 02:40 PM
Don't agree with you and never will and I am not even sure you are arguing against my point but rather in defense of the entire defense in whole which is not my debate. The defensive line was man handled by Denver which is why they were able to run the ball 55 times. Don't get man hanlded and stop them from running the ball and Denver has to punt or throw. Eric Berry does not stop the run all by himself and does not prevent our defensive line from getting knocked back for 4 yards allowing denver to run a dive for 3 yards before contact making it a 4 yard gain. In the game againt Denver in Denver, the Chiefs were night and day better about this and held their line much better.

Point of my argument was that I was not in favor of another LSU D lineman as the two we have so far, are not fairing to the best of my desires and any stat anyone want me to look at goes out the door from my own personal judgement watching that Home Denver game.

We agree on not wanting Brockers but for different reasons.

As for the entire defense I'm not sure how you can say that Berry didn't make a difference. I'll point to Polamalu to back up that a safety does indeed make a difference. The Steelers got run all over after Polamalu went down.

We just took two different things away from the home Denver game. You took away that our DLine isn't what you want it to be. I took away that Tebow isn't a good QB, so they had to pound the rock all day long and our defense got tired.

I just don't know how you can argue that a rushing defense isn't good when it allows 10 points up until we bite run and get a TD thrown over the top. Personally, I'll take a rushing defense that allows the opponent to score 7 points plus a 38 yard field goal every Sunday.

chiefnut
04-05-2012, 02:49 PM
the reason they ran the ball 55 time was because they could, the defense was unable to stop the run. you can't run the ball that many times when you have to punt after three downs.

Seek
04-05-2012, 04:29 PM
We agree on not wanting Brockers but for different reasons.

As for the entire defense I'm not sure how you can say that Berry didn't make a difference. I'll point to Polamalu to back up that a safety does indeed make a difference. The Steelers got run all over after Polamalu went down.

We just took two different things away from the home Denver game. You took away that our DLine isn't what you want it to be. I took away that Tebow isn't a good QB, so they had to pound the rock all day long and our defense got tired.

I just don't know how you can argue that a rushing defense isn't good when it allows 10 points up until we bite run and get a TD thrown over the top. Personally, I'll take a rushing defense that allows the opponent to score 7 points plus a 38 yard field goal every Sunday.

My concern goes beyong The Denver Game. Just as our defensive line was destroyed against oakland in 2010 with Berry in there. It was handled by Baltimore in the play off game and was handled by Denver. Now, that is two divisional teams handling our defensive line.

So why I am an arguing about a rushing defense when it allows 10 points. You already answered it for me. Tebow... What would that team have done with Oh I don't know, Peyton Manning as their Qb instead of Tebow. The best thing going for us right now, is their lack of Receivers.

Xanathol
04-05-2012, 06:14 PM
Every bit of factual data supports that those two - Tyson and Glenn - were doing a tremendous job this season. In the Denver game, they both had 5 tackles and 1 assist, which is only behind DJ & JB ( ya know, the guys they were freeing up ). Blaming them is like blaming Cassel's play on the sale of John Denver's last album - it just doesn't make sense.

chiefnut
04-05-2012, 06:34 PM
Every bit of factual data supports that those two - Tyson and Glenn - were doing a tremendous job this season. In the Denver game, they both had 5 tackles and 1 assist, which is only behind DJ & JB ( ya know, the guys they were freeing up ). Blaming them is like blaming Cassel's play on the sale of John Denver's last album - it just doesn't make sense.


according to CBS sports ranking of DL Dorsey was ranked 20th which is impressively hihger than i would have guessed while Jackson is 107th

TopekaRoy
04-05-2012, 07:15 PM
according to CBS sports ranking of DL Dorsey was ranked 20th which is impressively hihger than i would have guessed while Jackson is 107th

Link?

Seek
04-06-2012, 10:28 AM
Every bit of factual data supports that those two - Tyson and Glenn - were doing a tremendous job this season. In the Denver game, they both had 5 tackles and 1 assist, which is only behind DJ & JB ( ya know, the guys they were freeing up ). Blaming them is like blaming Cassel's play on the sale of John Denver's last album - it just doesn't make sense.

26th rankes defense against the run. That is not Factual evidence they were doing a tremendous job.

chiefnut
04-06-2012, 11:03 AM
Link?

Sports - CBSSports.com Sports News, Fantasy Scores, Sports Video (www.cbssports.com/)nfl/playerrankings/regularseason/RB

just click on DL

TopekaRoy
04-06-2012, 12:37 PM
Sports - CBSSports.com Sports News, Fantasy Scores, Sports Video (www.cbssports.com/)nfl/playerrankings/regularseason/RB

just click on DL

Those are purely stat based rankings that appear to be designed to emphasize fantasy football numbers. They are weighted in favor of things like sacks, safetys, defensive touchdowns and forced fumbles. They really don't take into account what the role of those players are in their respective defensive schemes. They treat 4-3 and 3-4 linemen, regardless of what position they play on the line all the same and assign them a number based only on raw stats.

These are exactly the kind of rankings that lead some people to believe that Dorsey and Jackson aren't that good, because they just look at stats, and don't understand the role of these players in the Chiefs defense. If you want to play fantasy football, don't take offensive linemen who play in a 3-4 defense.

Edited to add: Here is the direct link: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/playerrankings/regularseason/DL

chiefnut
04-06-2012, 02:29 PM
Those are purely stat based rankings that appear to be designed to emphasize fantasy football numbers. They are weighted in favor of things like sacks, safetys, defensive touchdowns and forced fumbles. They really don't take into account what the role of those players are in their respective defensive schemes. They treat 4-3 and 3-4 linemen, regardless of what position they play on the line all the same and assign them a number based only on raw stats.

These are exactly the kind of rankings that lead some people to believe that Dorsey and Jackson aren't that good, because they just look at stats, and don't understand the role of these players in the Chiefs defense. If you want to play fantasy football, don't take offensive linemen who play in a 3-4 defense.

Edited to add: Here is the direct link: NFL Player Rankings - CBSSports.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/playerrankings/regularseason/DL)




it is theses specific stats that rated dorsey very favorable, 20th out of over 100 DL is very good but i guess that doesn't count??

Xanathol
04-06-2012, 03:14 PM
26th rankes defense against the run. That is not Factual evidence they were doing a tremendous job.
Because those two players are 100% responsible for KC's rush defense ranking... :pointlaugh:

chiefnut
04-06-2012, 03:38 PM
as i understand it you don't think CBS Sports ranking is valid, of course bleacher report is written by just fans but you put all your faith in the expert opinion of Khaled Elsayed (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/author/khaled/) ??????

TopekaRoy
04-06-2012, 09:05 PM
it is theses specific stats that rated dorsey very favorable, 20th out of over 100 DL is very good but i guess that doesn't count??

No, it doesn't. He got a sack, so that's good I guess if he's on your fantasy team.

Those stat's don't tell you how often a player was double teamed, what percentage of plays were ran in his direction, or if he was effective at acting as a 'blocker' to allow a linebacker to get through the line for a sack or a tackle for a loss. They don't tell you how many times a lineman 'pressured' a QB into making a bad throw or throwing the ball out of bounds. They don't tell you how many times a lineman 'jammed' a tight end or took a RB out of a play so they couldn't catch a pass.

I know he plays in a 4-3 scheme, but Julius Peppers is a great DE even when he doesn't get a lot of stats, because he is almost always double teamed, allowing teammates to get into the backfield, he is hard to throw over because of his size and vertical leap, and offenses are often forced to run plays to the opposite side of the field, limiting their options. None of those things show up in CBS's 'rankings.'

Tyson Jackson is good at what he does even though it doesn't produce big fantasy stat numbers, and Dorsey is good at what he does regardless of the fact that it gives him a decent ranking. Those numbers don't tell the whole story and are largely irrelevant to the discussion about how good they are. You have to actually watch the games to see if they are effective at doing what they are supposed to be doing or not.

You can't tell just by looking at 'fantasy' stats.

chiefnut
04-08-2012, 08:41 PM
Roy i actually was responding to the posts of Xanathol & Pojote. I don't think our D line has done a good job although i will concede that dorsey has much improved and has reached the rank of average except jackson still is sub standard and our NT has been mediocre between gregg and before him edwards. a stellar NT would make a huge difference, but poe is not the guy, not yet anyway. our biggest problem was lack of offense and Decastro would complete the overhaul and make this an offense that can pound on the ground or cut you up thru the air. he would be my choice

TopekaRoy
04-08-2012, 08:53 PM
Roy i actually was responding to the posts of Xanathol & Pojote. I don't think our D line has done a good job although i will concede that dorsey has much improved and has reached the rank of average except jackson still is sub standard and our NT has been mediocre between gregg and before him edwards. a stellar NT would make a huge difference, but poe is not the guy, not yet anyway. our biggest problem was lack of offense and Decastro would complete the overhaul and make this an offense that can pound on the ground or cut you up thru the air. he would be my choice

I see. I thought you were responding to my earlier post which was critical of CBS's so-called rankings. I just thought I would throw my opinion into the mix.

At any rate, I think Dorsey and Jackson are better than you give them credit for. However, I agree with everything you said above from "... our NT has been mediocre ..." on forward. :smile

Xanathol
04-09-2012, 03:18 AM
as i understand it you don't think CBS Sports ranking is valid, of course bleacher report is written by just fans but you put all your faith in the expert opinion of Khaled Elsayed (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/author/khaled/) ??????
How is this a response to my posts? I linked to NFL.com's numbers and quite honestly, don't care what any journalists anywhere have as their 'ranking list' ( just check the QB thread one for a good laugh throughout ). My argument comes from facts and game tape. Facts show TJ & GD have some of the highest tackle totals for DL in the entire NFL. Facts are, Dorsey is double teamed as much as Wilt Chamberlain ( be it on the court or in the bedroom... ). Would a pass rush be nice? If the coaches wanted one from them, sure. Dorsey literally had to change his game from a penetrating 4-3 DT out of college to a 'catch a block' 2-gapper and you can see it every snap - not using his quick first step but instead slow, holding ground, feet keeping a good base, shuffling left & right instead of moving upfield, using his hands to hold a lineman at length instead of punching, swimming, ripping. As Romeo himself has stated, he is doing EXACTLY what he is told to do.

Let's flip this argument around - what base 3-4 DE do you think is performing better than either of these two?

Seek
04-09-2012, 10:12 AM
Because those two players are 100% responsible for KC's rush defense ranking... :pointlaugh:

That right is not 100% their fault, but their sole JOB is to take up blockers and let the rest of the team do the work, and as stated many times before, they were getting pushed back and by the time anyone made contact, and most of the time that contact ended in an immediate tackle and appeared to be a good stop, was a 4 yard gain because the guys up front were getting beat. I won't argue that Belcher makes wrong reads some times, or gets blocked easily. I won't argue that Eric Berry was a huge missing problem, and even then, McGraw getting hurt so often didn't help.

I know for a 100% fact that stats is a measurable tool to find a result based on certain variables. You can change all the variables you want to make the stats tailored to look good or look bad depending on what result you want. So while you can provide me stats on their individual performances, It does not support why this team was ranked 26th against the run. They are not 100% the cause of this, but they are a HUGE foundation for this problem and while I like Dorsey. I really don't want another LSU D lineman, because I feel that maybe they are more of a system/talented team than individually top talent players. I see Jackson blocked way to easy, and while he may have some stats showing that he is getting better, he is a complete bust of a 4th round pick and gets stood up so freaking easy.

pojote
04-09-2012, 10:37 AM
Extracted from play by play stats in NFL.COM http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011111305/2011/REG10/broncos@chiefs#menu=gameinfo&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay:

(8:48) 27-K.Moreno right end pushed ob at KC 6 for 24 yards (47-J.McGraw).
(2:42) (Shotgun) 27-K.Moreno right end to DEN 36 for 22 yards (56-D.Johnson)
(1:28) (Shotgun) 19-E.Royal left end to KC 48 for 11 yards (48-R.Langford)
(1:37) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow right end pushed ob at DEN 36 for 19 yards (24-B.Flowers).

Those where just big plays, 76 yards. 244 total rushing yards - those 76 = 168 yards. 168 yards / 51 plays = 3.3 ypc

3.3 YPC I think it's fine for a 3-4 DL.

chiefnut
04-09-2012, 11:17 AM
of the 13 nfl teams using a 3-4 defense, which is traditionaly better against the run than the 4-3 only indy is ranked lower against the run the KC so based on that i would guess a number of the DE's and NT's are better that ours.

Ryfo18
04-09-2012, 11:23 AM
26th rankes defense against the run. That is not Factual evidence they were doing a tremendous job.

This statistic is very misleading. For one, the Chiefs were run on the 4th most times in the league. Only the Colts, Rams, and Browns had more rush attempts against them. All of these teams have one thing in common: Anemic offenses. A lot of this can be blamed on the offense having a lot of 3 and outs, not scoring any points, and the team as a result being behind in the score.

If you look to a more telling stat, yards per carry, the Chiefs ranked 14th in the league by allowing 4.2 yards per carry. The Falcons also allowed 4.2 yards per carry to opposing running backs, but gave up 460 less yards on the year because teams ran the ball against them 136 times fewer than the Chiefs. This is no surprise, because they often had the lead.

The point is, the rush defense is slightly above average in this league, but the "rushing yards" stats are very inflated because of the offense's incompetency. With that said, you can get a better idea of why Jackson and Dorsey have been solid 3-4 DE's, and the ProFootballFocus article posted earlier goes on to highlight this as well.

Ryfo18
04-09-2012, 11:24 AM
of the 13 nfl teams using a 3-4 defense, which is traditionaly better against the run than the 4-3 only indy is ranked lower against the run the KC so based on that i would guess a number of the DE's and NT's are better that ours.

Indy doesn't even run a 3-4.

Ryfo18
04-09-2012, 11:26 AM
Extracted from play by play stats in NFL.COM http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011111305/2011/REG10/broncos@chiefs#menu=gameinfo&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay:

(8:48) 27-K.Moreno right end pushed ob at KC 6 for 24 yards (47-J.McGraw).
(2:42) (Shotgun) 27-K.Moreno right end to DEN 36 for 22 yards (56-D.Johnson)
(1:28) (Shotgun) 19-E.Royal left end to KC 48 for 11 yards (48-R.Langford)
(1:37) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow right end pushed ob at DEN 36 for 19 yards (24-B.Flowers).

Those where just big plays, 76 yards. 244 total rushing yards - those 76 = 168 yards. 168 yards / 51 plays = 3.3 ypc

3.3 YPC I think it's fine for a 3-4 DL.

Not to mention the common thing about all of those plays is that they were outside runs.

Ryfo18
04-09-2012, 11:30 AM
With all that said, if we were to take a 3-4 DE in the first round, I'd prefer Fletcher Cox out of Mississippi State.

Seek
04-09-2012, 02:19 PM
Extracted from play by play stats in NFL.COM NFL Game Center: Denver Broncos at Kansas City Chiefs - 2011 Week 10 (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011111305/2011/REG10/broncos@chiefs#menu=gameinfo&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay):

(8:48) 27-K.Moreno right end pushed ob at KC 6 for 24 yards (47-J.McGraw).
(2:42) (Shotgun) 27-K.Moreno right end to DEN 36 for 22 yards (56-D.Johnson)
(1:28) (Shotgun) 19-E.Royal left end to KC 48 for 11 yards (48-R.Langford)
(1:37) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow right end pushed ob at DEN 36 for 19 yards (24-B.Flowers).

Those where just big plays, 76 yards. 244 total rushing yards - those 76 = 168 yards. 168 yards / 51 plays = 3.3 ypc

3.3 YPC I think it's fine for a 3-4 DL.

So you are intentionally and knowingly kicking out the worste 4 plays to pad a stat. Those four plays happened and can't be removed from the stats. That logic is refusing reality.


It also does not support the fact that maybe the runs to the ends are more effective because the Ends are getting sealed off, allowing a blocker to kick out the line backer for a big gain.

Again you guys can try to support Jackson and Dorsey with Stats all you want. But watching them play, and knowing our weaknesses on the defense. I know what I see, and Jackson does make some great plays, but is stood up and pushed back way to freaking easy.

pojote
04-09-2012, 06:09 PM
So you are intentionally and knowingly kicking out the worste 4 plays to pad a stat. Those four plays happened and can't be removed from the stats. That logic is refusing reality.


It also does not support the fact that maybe the runs to the ends are more effective because the Ends are getting sealed off, allowing a blocker to kick out the line backer for a big gain.

Again you guys can try to support Jackson and Dorsey with Stats all you want. But watching them play, and knowing our weaknesses on the defense. I know what I see, and Jackson does make some great plays, but is stood up and pushed back way to freaking easy.

When I see an outside run being stopped by Jackson or Dorsey I will instantly send them to Canton. Just imagine, a 3-4 DE being blocked in the line, getting away from his blocker and running laterally faster than a RB to tackle him. Wow!!! just wow!!!

OPLookn
04-09-2012, 06:26 PM
So you are intentionally and knowingly kicking out the worste 4 plays to pad a stat. Those four plays happened and can't be removed from the stats. That logic is refusing reality.


It also does not support the fact that maybe the runs to the ends are more effective because the Ends are getting sealed off, allowing a blocker to kick out the line backer for a big gain.

Again you guys can try to support Jackson and Dorsey with Stats all you want. But watching them play, and knowing our weaknesses on the defense. I know what I see, and Jackson does make some great plays, but is stood up and pushed back way to freaking easy.

It would depend on the scheme called for that play but I'd think (correct me if I'm wrong) that the OLB have contain responsibility. So even if the DE is getting blocked in on by the TE the play going for 2 yards or 200 is the OLB's problem. So the defensive line shouldn't be responsible for anything but what goes on in between the lines.

At this point unless someone is going to go back and watch the game again and say Jackson, Gregg and Dorsey's responsibility and then add the yards up it's impossible to say who was really at fault.

You had in another thread earlier that fine what would have happened if Manning had been there instead of Tebow.


My concern goes beyong The Denver Game. Just as our defensive line was destroyed against oakland in 2010 with Berry in there. It was handled by Baltimore in the play off game and was handled by Denver. Now, that is two divisional teams handling our defensive line.

So why I am an arguing about a rushing defense when it allows 10 points. You already answered it for me. Tebow... What would that team have done with Oh I don't know, Peyton Manning as their Qb instead of Tebow. The best thing going for us right now, is their lack of Receivers.

At that point since you're so good about pointing out our ranking in rushing offense I'll point out our passing defense...6th. We were 6th in the NFL against the pass. So my guess would have been that Denver would have passed more, rushed less and had more equal amounts of rushing and passing. At that point we probably wouldn't be talking about Dorsey or Jackson at this point and you'd be complaining about the lack of pass rush.

The bottom line is that both Dorsey and Jackson are improving. We all want our defense to play lights out but they aren't there yet. I'm not willing to say it's players but I'm not willing to rule that possibility out yet. But to assign the ranking of rushing defense on the front three can't be done.

Xanathol
04-09-2012, 09:42 PM
That right is not 100% their fault, but their sole JOB is to take up blockers and let the rest of the team do the work, and as stated many times before, they were getting pushed back and by the time anyone made contact, and most of the time that contact ended in an immediate tackle and appeared to be a good stop, was a 4 yard gain because the guys up front were getting beat. I won't argue that Belcher makes wrong reads some times, or gets blocked easily. I won't argue that Eric Berry was a huge missing problem, and even then, McGraw getting hurt so often didn't help.

I know for a 100% fact that stats is a measurable tool to find a result based on certain variables. You can change all the variables you want to make the stats tailored to look good or look bad depending on what result you want. So while you can provide me stats on their individual performances, It does not support why this team was ranked 26th against the run. They are not 100% the cause of this, but they are a HUGE foundation for this problem and while I like Dorsey. I really don't want another LSU D lineman, because I feel that maybe they are more of a system/talented team than individually top talent players. I see Jackson blocked way to easy, and while he may have some stats showing that he is getting better, he is a complete bust of a 4th round pick and gets stood up so freaking easy.
First off, those are two players out of 11 - to say they are a HUGE part of a "failing" KC rush defense makes your argument laughable.

Secondly, are you watching the correct games / players ( #72 & #94 )? It sounds inflamatory but I mean it quite sincerely, since nothing you stated actually exists. Dorsey does not routinely "get stood up and driven back for 4 yards", nor does TJ - its just not happening, per watching the actual games. Those claims are completely false and have no bearing in reality whatsoever. You can continue to make those claims till you are blue in the face, but it will not make it real. I can only take it that you have something personal against these players or you're going off of second hand info that is incorrect, because its simply not true.

As for the example someone showed, I believe your response shows your bias. The poster clearly shows that the big runs were all to the outside - where your OLBers and CBs, even your flowing ILBs & Ss - should have made the play... not your interior defensive linemen. Yet you want to add those to your 'evidence' pool against GD & TJ, even though they clearly have nothing to do with it. That my friend, is called a bias, and you 'has it'.

Seek
04-10-2012, 10:07 AM
When I see an outside run being stopped by Jackson or Dorsey I will instantly send them to Canton. Just imagine, a 3-4 DE being blocked in the line, getting away from his blocker and running laterally faster than a RB to tackle him. Wow!!! just wow!!!

No, I am not saying they should make the play. What I am saying is that it is their job to take up a blocker so that the line backers are free to make make those plays. They are not doing that. Instead they are blocking their line backers from making the play by getting pushed back and I am not saying it is all their fault. Belcher loves getting blocked by his team or taking himself out of the play. And yes the injury to Berry was huge, even more so when McGraw was hurt.

Some of the best defensive stops this year, was when they did do their job and DJ blew up the play for either no gain or a loss. They are not complete and total losers. They do make good plays, but they are very inconsistent and Jackson more times than not is easily blocked and stood straight up.

Look, you guys can look up all the stats you want to and try to support this, but my opinion of watching them live every home game since they were drafted is still fresh in my mind. I am very sour about the performances against Oakland and Baltimore last year, as well as the Bills and Donkies games this year. Our offensive line and defensive line looked like high schoolers in all four of those games and I don't care what stats you guys throw out there from an entire season. In those games, against better lines. They were not acceptable. Obviously, you guys are so dead set on supporting average play and are removing Bad plays from Stats to support it. Fine, do what you want, but I am sleeping much better knowing I can watch it from TV every game going forward.

wolfpack
04-10-2012, 10:51 AM
i thought i read were TJ is due 14 mil next year. If thats true he`s not playing so far at a 14 mil level.

pojote
04-10-2012, 10:57 AM
i thought i read were TJ is due 14 mil next year. If thats true he`s not playing so far at a 14 mil level.

That's true, he is going to restructure his contract or getting close to be cut, not that he's playing poorly, just not worth that amount of money.

Seek
04-10-2012, 02:36 PM
First off, those are two players out of 11 - to say they are a HUGE part of a "failing" KC rush defense makes your argument laughable.

Secondly, are you watching the correct games / players ( #72 & #94 )? It sounds inflamatory but I mean it quite sincerely, since nothing you stated actually exists. Dorsey does not routinely "get stood up and driven back for 4 yards", nor does TJ - its just not happening, per watching the actual games. Those claims are completely false and have no bearing in reality whatsoever. You can continue to make those claims till you are blue in the face, but it will not make it real. I can only take it that you have something personal against these players or you're going off of second hand info that is incorrect, because its simply not true.

As for the example someone showed, I believe your response shows your bias. The poster clearly shows that the big runs were all to the outside - where your OLBers and CBs, even your flowing ILBs & Ss - should have made the play... not your interior defensive linemen. Yet you want to add those to your 'evidence' pool against GD & TJ, even though they clearly have nothing to do with it. That my friend, is called a bias, and you 'has it'.

Yes, I am biased against number 94. I wasn't that way but he has earned it based on my own opinion of watching him play and when he makes a good play, I do point it out, because I am shocked it happened.

I am also biased to DJ who has proven himself to be a pro-bowler, and while you all say it is his fault for not making the plays on the ouside, I have that biased opinion of seeing him make that play more times than none, and when he does not, I see him getting blocked or taken out of the play by someone else.

That being said, I was very furious by the amount of holds that Denver got away with specifically by Beadles holding Dorsey or DJ. Every freaking play. Howeve, that frustration just turned to the defense for not being able to stop them from running regardless of a guy Cheating every play.

chiefnut
04-11-2012, 12:41 PM
i think what we have are differing opinons bending logic and statistics to support their own position. no amount of debate or data will sway either side. it is probably a good idea to agree to disagree and look forward to the draft and then onto to a new and improved CHIEFS team in 2012.