PDA

View Full Version : Who's better, who's worse?



m0ef0e
10-09-2007, 03:44 PM
Obviously, there is plenty of blame to spread around as to why the Chiefs' running game is so ineffective right now. The o-line is certainly largely at fault as well as Johnson, IMO. In an effort to more accurately pin-point the most problematic areas, I have been comparing statistics of many running backs around the league and also their team's rushing stats as a whole to kind of get a picture about their o-line. The line is not necessarily my area of expertise so I kind of need some help with a few questions I have:

1. Is the Miami Dolphins' line really that much better than the Chiefs or is the difference more between the running of Ronnie Brown and LJ? Brown is 5th in the league in yardage on about the same amount of carries per game as LJ.

2. What about the Cardinals? Edgerrin James is 4th in yardage, has only one run of 20 or more yards, and gets roughly 5 more attempts per game that Brown or LJ. It seems like his o-line is definately performing better than ours with that stat-line but the fact that he has a 4.1 avg and only one run of 27 yards also testifies to some hard running as well. Last year, the Cardinals were ranked 30th in rushing yards.

3. Addai's reason for success (8th) should be obvious with the Colt's o-line but he has NO runs of more than 20 yards and carries a 4.8 average on roughly the same amount of carries per game as James. Further proof that the Colt's o-line can run-block as well as pass protect: Kenton Keith is already almost caught up with the middle of the pack in rushing yardage.

4. What about Adrian Peterson? Is the rookie actually better than guys like LT and LJ or is his success more a testiment of the Viking's o-line? Granted, you can't have one without the other.

5. Jamal Lewis? The Browns?? I know their first pick was an o-lineman but he is a rookie and it's one guy. This is a team that has jumped from 31st to 10th in rushing yards from last year!

6. What about Marshawn Lynch? What did Buffalo do to THAT o-line? They have made a jump from 27th to 12th in rushing yards from last season.

7. Brian Westbrook has been injured and still tops Johsnon on the rankings. The Eagles' o-line gave up a record-tying 12 sacks against a Giants defense that had been struggling coming into that game. Coincidentally, this game was the first one in which Westbrook did not start due to injury.

8. Chris Brown is not even the featured back for the Titans and he has only 1 yard less than Johnson on 3 less carries per game.

9. The Raiders. 29th in rushing yards last season. Now they lead the league in rushing ypg. Jordan is ranked 6th in rushing yards while Fargas is currently only 14 yards behind LJ on only about half of the attempts. It really looks like the Raiders did some good things with that o-line.


10. Sammy Morris didn't even start the season as the featured back in NE and has already moved far past Johnson in almost every statistical category. Of course, it IS the Patriots.

11. Finally, and perhaps most embarrassing for the Chiefs is the fact that Brian Leonard is averaging a full 1.5 more ypc than Johnson while running in Steven Jackson's abscence behind a Rams o-line that has been plagued by injury. Leonard is less than 90 yards behind Johnson on only 38 total carries to Johsnon's 84.

It is evident that some of these teams were really commited to improving their run-games during the offseason. A lot of these stats point to dramatic improvement on some of these o-lines. Some more point to the skill of the running back as the reason for their team's success on the ground. Either way, the Chiefs' line and LJ should both be embarassed. Some of the running backs in this list would never have been mentioned in the same breath as Johnson until this year. Just as the success of some of these teams on the ground is just as much of a surprise as the Chiefs' current ineptness in running the football. Now, let the discussion begin!

McLovin
10-09-2007, 03:55 PM
Maybe that is the problem, Most of these guys wouldnt be mentioned in the same breath with LJ last year. So this year when teams are preparing they arent the ones that are teed off on. Regardless of how poorly LJs stat line is you can guarantee that the Bengals arent going to see him as less of a threat then last year.

He is going to get the majority of the focus again this week. LJ didnt have one breakout game to get where he is but after 5 weeks of a very poor showing (part of it his fault) there are some here again that wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater. Cmon I wanna hear you say it, Why dont we give LJ and his contract to say Denver, Oakland or San Diego. It isnt like the Chargers need him with LJ anyway and with the way he is stinking it up we sure dont want him.

I agree his attitude isnt the best right now but would you rather he cried after games like LT. He is mad he isnt getting the help. And he is mad at himself for not producing at the level he holds himself to. But you continually want to throw him under the bus.

Give Adrien Peterson and Marshawn Lynch a couple months of great production and see if they still get the numbers if they are hit in the backfield every play and the O-Line never moves forward.

A good statistician will tell you, you can make stats say anything you want them to.

m0ef0e
10-09-2007, 04:07 PM
Maybe that is the problem, Most of these guys wouldnt be mentioned in the same breath with LJ last year. So this year when teams are preparing they arent the ones that are teed off on. Regardless of how poorly LJs stat line is you can guarantee that the Bengals arent going to see him as less of a threat then last year.

He is going to get the majority of the focus again this week. LJ didnt have one breakout game to get where he is but after 5 weeks of a very poor showing (part of it his fault) there are some here again that wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater. Cmon I wanna hear you say it, Why dont we give LJ and his contract to say Denver, Oakland or San Diego. It isnt like the Chargers need him with LJ anyway and with the way he is stinking it up we sure dont want him.

I agree his attitude isnt the best right now but would you rather he cried after games like LT. He is mad he isnt getting the help. And he is mad at himself for not producing at the level he holds himself to. But you continually want to throw him under the bus.

Give Adrien Peterson and Marshawn Lynch a couple months of great production and see if they still get the numbers if they are hit in the backfield every play and the O-Line never moves forward.

A good statistician will tell you, you can make stats say anything you want them to.

Our running game has put themselves under the bus. LJ, the o-line, all of them... It's a collective effort-- or lack there-of.

chief31
10-09-2007, 04:44 PM
Obviously, there is plenty of blame to spread around as to why the Chiefs' running game is so ineffective right now. The o-line is certainly largely at fault as well as Johnson, IMO. In an effort to more accurately pin-point the most problematic areas, I have been comparing statistics of many running backs around the league and also their team's rushing stats as a whole to kind of get a picture about their o-line. The line is not necessarily my area of expertise so I kind of need some help with a few questions I have:

1. Is the Miami Dolphins' line really that much better than the Chiefs or is the difference more between the running of Ronnie Brown and LJ? Brown is 5th in the league in yardage on about the same amount of carries per game as LJ. In some spots, sure. But that isn't the real problem. As has been pointed out, Brown hadn't warranted opponents game-planning around him, 'til now. Also, while I am not a Dolphins expert, Their O-line appears to be performing better, as a unit. The Chiefs' O-line is a scrambled group, with alot of backups being pugged in too.

2. What about the Cardinals? Edgerrin James is 4th in yardage, has only one run of 20 or more yards, and gets roughly 5 more attempts per game that Brown or LJ. It seems like his o-line is definately performing better than ours with that stat-line but the fact that he has a 4.1 avg and only one run of 27 yards also testifies to some hard running as well. Last year, the Cardinals were ranked 30th in rushing yards. I noticed, near the end of last season, that His numbers were improving. I think that Edge has taken an active roll in working directly with his O-linmen, there. Arizona was the worst rushing team in existence, when he arrived. Since then, they have started to gain some pride and some young talent has helped their inprovement.

3. Addai's reason for success (8th) should be obvious with the Colt's o-line but he has NO runs of more than 20 yards and carries a 4.8 average on roughly the same amount of carries per game as James. Further proof that the Colt's o-line can run-block as well as pass protect: Kenton Keith is already almost caught up with the middle of the pack in rushing yardage. Addai, has an ideal situation. Where opponents gameplan around LJ, they are far from doing that to Addai. Everyone knows that you gameplan on how to stop the Colts' passing game. What this results in, for Addai, is kind of a reverse of what LJ has been seeing. Instead of eight, or nine, in the box, Addai gets almost four in tha box. While there may be as many as seven, or eight in the box, physically, they aren't usually there with the same intent as thay are against LJ.

4. What about Adrian Peterson? Is the rookie actually better than guys like LT and LJ or is his success more a testiment of the Viking's o-line? Granted, you can't have one without the other. AP is very good. But after one year of playing together, the Vikings offensive line is starting to show some of the ability that they have. "Mount" McKinney and Steve "Hutch" is a great place to run. Once teams realize that, other places along the line will improve, as opponents start to lean toward the strongest point of the Vikings attack.

5. Jamal Lewis? The Browns?? I know their first pick was an o-lineman but he is a rookie and it's one guy. This is a team that has jumped from 31st to 10th in rushing yards from last year! Really, the Browns have worked very hard to improve that offensive line. I believe that the additions of LeCharles Bentley and Joe Thomas will show more in the next season, or two. But then, there was really one BIG game that boosts those stats.

6. What about Marshawn Lynch? What did Buffalo do to THAT o-line? They have made a jump from 27th to 12th in rushing yards from last season. Another thing about these rankings is, that when several teams dissapear form the top of these rankings, everyone else will get a big boost in the standings.

7. Brian Westbrook has been injured and still tops Johsnon on the rankings. The Eagles' o-line gave up a record-tying 12 sacks against a Giants defense that had been struggling coming into that game. Coincidentally, this game was the first one in which Westbrook did not start due to injury. The Eagles offensive line is designed for the passing game. Their entire offense revolves around it. Winston Justice had a horrible individual effort in pass-protection, against the Giants. It was his first ever NFL start. Westbrook anly leads LJ in rushing, because of the Chiefs problems. (Although I really like Westbrooks abilities.)

8. Chris Brown is not even the featured back for the Titans and he has only 1 yard less than Johnson on 3 less carries per game. Again, Brown had one humungous game and leads LJ, based upon how poorly the Chiefs have run the ball.

9. The Raiders. 29th in rushing yards last season. Now they lead the league in rushing ypg. Jordan is ranked 6th in rushing yards while Fargas is currently only 14 yards behind LJ on only about half of the attempts. It really looks like the Raiders did some good things with that o-line. The only insight that I have on the Raiders is that Lamont Jordan was injured for most of last season. Otherwise, I have to assume that coaching has been calling the right plays, at the right times and has helped to install a good, working blocking scheme, that the players understand. I would have thought that Art Shell would have been able to do that, but appearently someone else has.


10. Sammy Morris didn't even start the season as the featured back in NE and has already moved far past Johnson in almost every statistical category. Of course, it IS the Patriots. I haven't seen Morris play yet. But I would assume that he is getting a certain amount of the advantage that I listed for Addai. Also, the Patriots' offensive line has been playing well, together, for several years.

11. Finally, and perhaps most embarrassing for the Chiefs is the fact that Brian Leonard is averaging a full 1.5 more ypc than Johnson while running in Steven Jackson's abscence behind a Rams o-line that has been plagued by injury. Leonard is less than 90 yards behind Johnson on only 38 total carries to Johsnon's 84. I would have to imagine that that will start to balance-out at some point. It is difficult to predict what will happen to the Rams. They lost the biggest piece of their offensive line, their stud runningback and their starting quarterback. Maybe Leonard is running with so much determination, that he is succeeding in spite of the situation.

It is evident that some of these teams were really commited to improving their run-games during the offseason. A lot of these stats point to dramatic improvement on some of these o-lines. Some more point to the skill of the running back as the reason for their team's success on the ground. Either way, the Chiefs' line and LJ should both be embarassed. Some of the running backs in this list would never have been mentioned in the same breath as Johnson until this year. Just as the success of some of these teams on the ground is just as much of a surprise as the Chiefs' current ineptness in running the football. Now, let the discussion begin!


Yeah, I know. I have a big mouth. Everything that I used in my responses is based on my opinions and guess-work. I make no claim to watch enough of these other teams, to claim any real insight. But that was the best that I could come up with. :D

m0ef0e
10-09-2007, 05:26 PM
Yeah, I know. I have a big mouth. Everything that I used in my responses is based on my opinions and guess-work. I make no claim to watch enough of these other teams, to claim any real insight. But that was the best that I could come up with. :D

The insight seemed valid enough and I thank you for providing it. :sign0098:

The only thing I can say about defenses planning for LJ is that the Chiefs are starting to become incredibly lopsided toward the pass due to the ineffectiveness of our run game. If everybody is still so keyed on Johnson, shouldn't our passing game have been more effective Sunday and if we get the pass really going at what point will teams start game-planning for that?

Chiefster
10-09-2007, 05:28 PM
Good enough for me; what are we talking about??? :p
j/k

DrunkHillbilly
10-09-2007, 05:39 PM
Obviously, there is plenty of blame to spread around as to why the Chiefs' running game is so ineffective right now. The o-line is certainly largely at fault as well as Johnson, IMO. In an effort to more accurately pin-point the most problematic areas, I have been comparing statistics of many running backs around the league and also their team's rushing stats as a whole to kind of get a picture about their o-line. The line is not necessarily my area of expertise so I kind of need some help with a few questions I have:

1. Is the Miami Dolphins' line really that much better than the Chiefs or is the difference more between the running of Ronnie Brown and LJ? Brown is 5th in the league in yardage on about the same amount of carries per game as LJ.

2. What about the Cardinals? Edgerrin James is 4th in yardage, has only one run of 20 or more yards, and gets roughly 5 more attempts per game that Brown or LJ. It seems like his o-line is definately performing better than ours with that stat-line but the fact that he has a 4.1 avg and only one run of 27 yards also testifies to some hard running as well. Last year, the Cardinals were ranked 30th in rushing yards.

3. Addai's reason for success (8th) should be obvious with the Colt's o-line but he has NO runs of more than 20 yards and carries a 4.8 average on roughly the same amount of carries per game as James. Further proof that the Colt's o-line can run-block as well as pass protect: Kenton Keith is already almost caught up with the middle of the pack in rushing yardage.

4. What about Adrian Peterson? Is the rookie actually better than guys like LT and LJ or is his success more a testiment of the Viking's o-line? Granted, you can't have one without the other.

5. Jamal Lewis? The Browns?? I know their first pick was an o-lineman but he is a rookie and it's one guy. This is a team that has jumped from 31st to 10th in rushing yards from last year!

6. What about Marshawn Lynch? What did Buffalo do to THAT o-line? They have made a jump from 27th to 12th in rushing yards from last season.

7. Brian Westbrook has been injured and still tops Johsnon on the rankings. The Eagles' o-line gave up a record-tying 12 sacks against a Giants defense that had been struggling coming into that game. Coincidentally, this game was the first one in which Westbrook did not start due to injury.

8. Chris Brown is not even the featured back for the Titans and he has only 1 yard less than Johnson on 3 less carries per game.

9. The Raiders. 29th in rushing yards last season. Now they lead the league in rushing ypg. Jordan is ranked 6th in rushing yards while Fargas is currently only 14 yards behind LJ on only about half of the attempts. It really looks like the Raiders did some good things with that o-line.


10. Sammy Morris didn't even start the season as the featured back in NE and has already moved far past Johnson in almost every statistical category. Of course, it IS the Patriots.

11. Finally, and perhaps most embarrassing for the Chiefs is the fact that Brian Leonard is averaging a full 1.5 more ypc than Johnson while running in Steven Jackson's abscence behind a Rams o-line that has been plagued by injury. Leonard is less than 90 yards behind Johnson on only 38 total carries to Johsnon's 84.

It is evident that some of these teams were really commited to improving their run-games during the offseason. A lot of these stats point to dramatic improvement on some of these o-lines. Some more point to the skill of the running back as the reason for their team's success on the ground. Either way, the Chiefs' line and LJ should both be embarassed. Some of the running backs in this list would never have been mentioned in the same breath as Johnson until this year. Just as the success of some of these teams on the ground is just as much of a surprise as the Chiefs' current ineptness in running the football. Now, let the discussion begin!


I can speak on the Cardinals. Better players on the O line. Different O line coach. Same running back that ranked in the bottom half last season. Doesn't take much to figure this one out.

chief31
10-09-2007, 06:56 PM
The insight seemed valid enough and I thank you for providing it. :sign0098:

The only thing I can say about defenses planning for LJ is that the Chiefs are starting to become incredibly lopsided toward the pass due to the ineffectiveness of our run game. If everybody is still so keyed on Johnson, shouldn't our passing game have been more effective Sunday and if we get the pass really going at what point will teams start game-planning for that?

When we manage to do it with some consistency. One out of five games isn't impressive to most. If you look at us from an opponents standpoint, other teams are shutting down the Chiefs run, and winning because the Chiefs have been unable to score. ... Sounds like a pretty good idea then, to follow others' lead, right?

m0ef0e
10-09-2007, 07:03 PM
When we manage to do it with some consistency. One out of five games isn't impressive to most. If you look at us from an opponents standpoint, other teams are shutting down the Chiefs run, and winning because the Chiefs have been unable to score. ... Sounds like a pretty good idea then, to follow others' lead, right?

If it ain't broke...

rbedgood
10-10-2007, 02:00 AM
1) Ronnie Brown, Ronnie is a very good runner and has shown flashes in his first two years, but little consistency. Cam Cameron is the coach that designed the system that made LaDanian Tomlinson...LT and he has now apparently helped Ronnie Brown harness his abilities.

2) Edgerrin was never the problem in AZ, but rather coaching (Denny Green & Co). The O-line was better last year, but Green sucked...with Whisenhunt & Grimm on board the O-line and team have the attitude it takes to make a running game work.

3) Addai---He is running downhill and is a great runner, but Peyton Manning and company require defenses to go "small" and spread the field. kenton Keith isn't near the back that Addai is, but still looked great last week as the situation is ideal.

4) AP---great O-line (at least from the Center, LG and LT), and a coach that is committed to the run and builds the attitude required into his team...they come too the game with the intent to crack skulls.

5) Jamal Lewis--They picked up Staley (LT-Rookie), Steinbach (LG-FA from Cincy), McKinney (RG-FA from Miami), and the other 2 Linemen RT & C were both added last year. Additionally TE K. Winslow Jr. is healthy this year which has helped spread the field and Jamal Lewis is an upgrade over Droughns

6) Marshawn Lynch--I saw the Denver game, not much to tell there as Denver is horrible this year. I also saw the Dallas game, and the O-line looked better than average. Not sure if they were amped for MNF or if they're better than advertised...but as far as I can see he's had some room to run...so comparing his numbers to LJs isn't a level comparison

7) Westbrook is a shifty runner and an excellent receiver. He's also behind an O-line that is very underrated...Look at Buckhalters numbers when he was out...its the line and the system.

8) Chris Brown---one huge game against Jax (with key players injured) Stroud had offseason micro-fracture surgery on his ankle, Hayward is coming off a torn Achilles' tendon, Henderson injured his shoulder before the preseason finale and Spicer missed most of training camp and the preseason with a sore back. The Jacksonville D recovered since then (see numbers in subsequent games) and Chris Brown has done little else. Lendale White however has looked good, and the TN line is pretty good.

9) I'm not sure about the Raiders...they've looked good, but the teams they've faced (Denver, Cleveland, Miami & Detroit) have all looked really soft on defense.

10) Sammy Morris and the Pats...yeah Morris didn't start as the feature back, but he has 75 carries already this season...so him being in front of LJ doesn't surprise me.

11) Leonard...you're right not much explanation for that one. He did have one big game against AZ and they've given up a fair amount of yardage on the ground, but he was also decent against Dallas.

m0ef0e
10-10-2007, 03:03 AM
1) Ronnie Brown, Ronnie is a very good runner and has shown flashes in his first two years, but little consistency. Cam Cameron is the coach that designed the system that made LaDanian Tomlinson...LT and he has now apparently helped Ronnie Brown harness his abilities.

2) Edgerrin was never the problem in AZ, but rather coaching (Denny Green & Co). The O-line was better last year, but Green sucked...with Whisenhunt & Grimm on board the O-line and team have the attitude it takes to make a running game work.

3) Addai---He is running downhill and is a great runner, but Peyton Manning and company require defenses to go "small" and spread the field. kenton Keith isn't near the back that Addai is, but still looked great last week as the situation is ideal.

4) AP---great O-line (at least from the Center, LG and LT), and a coach that is committed to the run and builds the attitude required into his team...they come too the game with the intent to crack skulls.

5) Jamal Lewis--They picked up Staley (LT-Rookie), Steinbach (LG-FA from Cincy), McKinney (RG-FA from Miami), and the other 2 Linemen RT & C were both added last year. Additionally TE K. Winslow Jr. is healthy this year which has helped spread the field and Jamal Lewis is an upgrade over Droughns

6) Marshawn Lynch--I saw the Denver game, not much to tell there as Denver is horrible this year. I also saw the Dallas game, and the O-line looked better than average. Not sure if they were amped for MNF or if they're better than advertised...but as far as I can see he's had some room to run...so comparing his numbers to LJs isn't a level comparison

7) Westbrook is a shifty runner and an excellent receiver. He's also behind an O-line that is very underrated...Look at Buckhalters numbers when he was out...its the line and the system.

8) Chris Brown---one huge game against Jax (with key players injured) Stroud had offseason micro-fracture surgery on his ankle, Hayward is coming off a torn Achilles' tendon, Henderson injured his shoulder before the preseason finale and Spicer missed most of training camp and the preseason with a sore back. The Jacksonville D recovered since then (see numbers in subsequent games) and Chris Brown has done little else. Lendale White however has looked good, and the TN line is pretty good.

9) I'm not sure about the Raiders...they've looked good, but the teams they've faced (Denver, Cleveland, Miami & Detroit) have all looked really soft on defense.

10) Sammy Morris and the Pats...yeah Morris didn't start as the feature back, but he has 75 carries already this season...so him being in front of LJ doesn't surprise me.

11) Leonard...you're right not much explanation for that one. He did have one big game against AZ and they've given up a fair amount of yardage on the ground, but he was also decent against Dallas.
:sign0098: Wow... Just wow...

Chiefster
10-10-2007, 03:37 AM
:sign0098: Wow... Just wow...

Agreed!:D

rbedgood
10-10-2007, 04:45 AM
Daddy always said, if you're going to take the time and effort to do something. Do it right the first time. Thanks fellas, appreciate the compliments.

hermhater
10-10-2007, 04:47 AM
Daddy always said, if you're going to take the time and effort to do something. Do it right the first time. Thanks fellas, appreciate the compliments.


So your FFL is going well?

:lol:

chief31
10-10-2007, 09:39 PM
5) Jamal Lewis--They picked up Staley (LT-Rookie), Steinbach (LG-FA from Cincy), McKinney (RG-FA from Miami), and the other 2 Linemen RT & C were both added last year.


Oops. Wrong Joe. :D

Chiefster
10-10-2007, 11:07 PM
Oops. Wrong Joe. :D

Here ya go.

Three7s
10-11-2007, 12:29 AM
The Vikings O-line is the opposite of the Chiefs imo. They were horrible at blocking for the pass against us. I can't count how many times we killed Holcomb, but when it came to handing it off to Peterson, they blocked just fine for him. Kind of funny how things like that are. I'm not saying that our O-line is incredible for the pass, but it doesn't deflate after 2 seconds like I've seen with some teams.

rbedgood
10-11-2007, 12:38 AM
Oops. Wrong Joe. :D

You're right, I was watching the recording of my 49ers game from the weekend while writing that post. Joe Thomas.