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Three7s
10-05-2012, 10:31 PM
I know everyone active on this forum is a diehard Chiefs fan. Shoot, I'm a diehard and always will be one, but the decisions that continue to be made are absolutely ludicrous, and Clark Hunt and Pioli don't care one lick about what any of their financial providers think.

I know, I know, don't go nuts on the success or failure of the Chiefs. Guess what? When I support a team, I expect their best effort to being successful, and even if they aren't, at least do whatever it takes to make the team stronger. The sole fact that this team continues to run Cassel on that field tells me that they could care less about the raining of boos after every interception.

But wait! At least we have a team right? Well, let me tell everyone what most Chiefs fans are thinking right now. Why watch a team that is so awful? I could be riding my bike, or spending the day with the family, or go out to eat with friends. Why should I torture myself watching this team be a laughing stock and not even care? By the time Peyton Manning shows up, Arrowhead will be a complete ghost town.

Some of you probably know that I'm a big Royals fan too. While they've been terrible too, the sad thing is that both franchises are being run far too similar. It's the Walmart way people. The owners don't care about spending money, the GMs think they can get a miracle season from some of the key cogs on the team and everything will just magically happen like it did in 2010 for the Chiefs. Guess what? Flukes happen and won't last forever, and by that, I mean Cassel. Of course, he's not the only problem, but he's the biggest one because he's the supposed leader of the team.

I know this is a rant and I don't care. The only way action will be taken is if no one goes to Arrowhead, period. Clark Hunt needs to know that this will not be acceptable and the only way he'll know that is to continuously see an empty stadium. Local fans are even trying to buy a blimp every week running a banner that says "Fire Pioli, Bench Cassel". That's the magnitude of what fans are going through to end the stench of failure that Pioli and his regime have put this fanbase through.

Alright, that's my piece, flame away.

#58ChiefsFan
10-05-2012, 10:49 PM
No reason to flame at your post.

If you're waiting for Pioli to be gone, it's going to be awhile though. From a roster standpoint he has done a good job, the coaching side has been bad to pathetic at times.

2010chiefs
10-05-2012, 10:58 PM
Thanks for the post and I 'm with you 100%.
Roster standpoint he's done a good job? Cassel and not having a decent backup QB is not a good job. Everywhere else on the roster I can agree.

Lord-Chiefy
10-05-2012, 11:02 PM
We have a good line up but the team is never ready to play in a gAme till it's so lopsided.

Connie Jo
10-06-2012, 12:05 AM
I know everyone active on this forum is a diehard Chiefs fan. Shoot, I'm a diehard and always will be one, but the decisions that continue to be made are absolutely ludicrous, and Clark Hunt and Pioli don't care one lick about what any of their financial providers think.

I know, I know, don't go nuts on the success or failure of the Chiefs. Guess what? When I support a team, I expect their best effort to being successful, and even if they aren't, at least do whatever it takes to make the team stronger. The sole fact that this team continues to run Cassel on that field tells me that they could care less about the raining of boos after every interception.

But wait! At least we have a team right? Well, let me tell everyone what most Chiefs fans are thinking right now. Why watch a team that is so awful? I could be riding my bike, or spending the day with the family, or go out to eat with friends. Why should I torture myself watching this team be a laughing stock and not even care? By the time Peyton Manning shows up, Arrowhead will be a complete ghost town.

Some of you probably know that I'm a big Royals fan too. While they've been terrible too, the sad thing is that both franchises are being run far too similar. It's the Walmart way people. The owners don't care about spending money, the GMs think they can get a miracle season from some of the key cogs on the team and everything will just magically happen like it did in 2010 for the Chiefs. Guess what? Flukes happen and won't last forever, and by that, I mean Cassel. Of course, he's not the only problem, but he's the biggest one because he's the supposed leader of the team.

I know this is a rant and I don't care. The only way action will be taken is if no one goes to Arrowhead, period. Clark Hunt needs to know that this will not be acceptable and the only way he'll know that is to continuously see an empty stadium. Local fans are even trying to buy a blimp every week running a banner that says "Fire Pioli, Bench Cassel". That's the magnitude of what fans are going through to end the stench of failure that Pioli and his regime have put this fanbase through.

Alright, that's my piece, flame away.

It's not "local" fans who initiated the banner you're referring to, it was a fan in Wichita. I'm sure some local KC fans have contributed to the rebellious banner cause. The guy said he collected $1600 from fans to help him pay for the $745 cost to fly the banner. He said he'll use the extra funds in the future if needed to fly additional banners.

I personally know some of the fans who contributed to the banner campaign. Of those I know, most are not local fans who attend games on a regular basis, rather from all over, including out of state, & watch games at home on their TV's.

Season ticket holders pay for their season ticket seats in advance, no refunds. The bill for 2013 will arrive in December, must be paid in full by the 1st of June if selecting the optional payment plan. Therefore, those who have season tickets for 2012, would be wasting their money if they chose not to attend the game.

I have no doubt single ticket sales will drop with a losing record, as they naturally do...with or without a fan rebellion campaign attempting to intimidate Clark Hunt in to doing as fans demand.

As I've stated previously...Clark Hunt is not dumb, in fact, he's considered highly intelligent among the corporate business world, including beyond the NFL Corporation. The Hunts make most of their money through their ownership of businesses unrelated to the Chiefs franchise. Those businesses are world wide.

Clark Hunt knows full well that if the Chiefs are losing games & seasons, that ticket sales & revenues in all areas related to the Chiefs franchise will drop dramatically. He doesn't need to be told that, he knows it already. It's happened in years past.

Putting all emotions aside as a fan, try to put yourself in Clark Hunts shoes. A wise businessman & NFL franchise owner would not surrender to demands being made by a rebellious group of fans. He can't, because if he does, he makes himself vulnerable to future attempts of intimidation by fans. Fans who do not have the professional education, knowledge, nor experience related to the very complex legalities & inner workings of a NFL Corporate franchise business.

If you were a business owner, with the professional education, knowledge, & experience necessary to manage that business for financial success...would you wisely & intelligently turn it's management over to a bunch of amateur spectators whose education, knowledge, & experience was limited to their speculations only? I would hope not. There's no realistic comparison to managing a multi million dollar NFL franchise successfully and succeeding with an imaginary Madden Football team.

I'm not Clark Hunt, but if I were...I would not give in to any fan intimidation. If I was considering benching Cassel prior to that intimidation, I'd wisely reverse my decision. I would do the opposite of what fans were attempting to intimidate me in to doing. You must stand up against intimidation, because if you don't, you become vulnerable to more. It's similar in theory to not allowing terrorists to change or prevent you from living life freely.

Connie Jo
10-06-2012, 12:45 AM
I will elaborate further on this issue, putting emotions aside, looking at it from a non bias perspective. Let's say at the end of 2012 Pioli is fired. Clarks first order of business is to replace him; NFL GM's are not a dime a dozen, successful ones are scarce. Regardless of what some fans may believe of Pioli currently, the mans resume is one of, if not, the most successful in the NFL.

NFL history proves it takes an average of 3-5 years for a GM to rebuild a new team from the ground up. A young team capable of dominating for more than one season takes an average of 5 years to evolve and become serious playoff contenders. More than likely 2010 was a "fluke", considering it occurred in Pioli's 2nd season. However, the Chiefs came within two blocked FG's of also making the playoffs in 2011. That close, even with overcoming obstacles of a rare NFL lockout, play making starters not playing the entire season due to injuries, new OC & playbook, and a HC habitually involved with conflicts among players, assistant coaches, & the GM, who was fired short of the season ending, an interim coach taking his place.

Pioli has wisely retained as many players under contract as feasibly possible. He knows that it's a proven fact, roster consistency is a key factor towards winning consistently. He re-signed Hali, Flowers, Charles, DJ, Succop, others. He has drafted young talent which has already contributed to the team positively...Succop, McCluster, Lewis, Houston, Hudson, Baldwin, Berry. Others he has drafted the majority of NFL analysts believe have the potential to become talented improvements to the team...once given the average fair time it takes for such players to evolve & adapt in to the NFL based upon their positions. Those players include Powe, Poe, Arenas, & others.

Bottom line realistically, & likely from Hunts wise viewpoint...Scott Pioli has not only improved the franchise & team in his 3 completed seasons as GM, he's drafted obvious young talent, and made the playoffs in his 2nd year, & damn near his 3rd even with multiple obstacles hindering such. Pioli is now in his 4th year, since it's not over, he's not been the GM for 4 years as many fans claim.

Back to replacing Pioli...a new GM will want to start from scratch as most GM's do. He will clean house, from front office staff to coaching, and also make adjustments to the roster he feels are needed for 'his plan'. Peterson did it in 1989, Pioli in 2009, another will do the same, guaranteed.

Since it's a proven fact it takes an average of 3-5 years for a new GM to be successful to the point of his franchise being serious playoff contenders...fans are looking at the earliest...2016, as much as 2018 or even longer, before they can realistically & fairly expect a playoff spot.

Don't take my word for it...do the research of statistics yourself. Teams that frequently change GM's & coaching staff every 3-5 years lose more than win. Teams that retain GM, coaching staff, & roster consistency begin winning consistently & consecutive seasons once surpassing that 3-5 yr. average. Impatience unwilling to allow a fair amount for a young regime & team to evolve to a peak performance level...will do a franchise & team in most every time.

Change is not the key to winning...consistency combined with fair & reasonable time for trial & error evolving to perfection...is the key to winning. The worst thing that could happen to the Chiefs at this critical 3 1/2 season mid point would be to fire the GM, start over again from the ground up.

Ryfo18
10-06-2012, 03:12 AM
Change is not the key to winning...consistency combined with fair & reasonable time for trial & error evolving to perfection...is the key to winning. The worst thing that could happen to the Chiefs at this critical 3 1/2 season mid point would be to fire the GM, start over again from the ground up.

Connie posted a lot, so if you don't read anything else, read this last line from her last post. :booyah:

Coach
10-06-2012, 08:18 AM
I know everyone active on this forum is a diehard Chiefs fan. Shoot, I'm a diehard and always will be one, but the decisions that continue to be made are absolutely ludicrous, and Clark Hunt and Pioli don't care one lick about what any of their financial providers think.

I know, I know, don't go nuts on the success or failure of the Chiefs. Guess what? When I support a team, I expect their best effort to being successful, and even if they aren't, at least do whatever it takes to make the team stronger. The sole fact that this team continues to run Cassel on that field tells me that they could care less about the raining of boos after every interception.

But wait! At least we have a team right? Well, let me tell everyone what most Chiefs fans are thinking right now. Why watch a team that is so awful? I could be riding my bike, or spending the day with the family, or go out to eat with friends. Why should I torture myself watching this team be a laughing stock and not even care? By the time Peyton Manning shows up, Arrowhead will be a complete ghost town.

Some of you probably know that I'm a big Royals fan too. While they've been terrible too, the sad thing is that both franchises are being run far too similar. It's the Walmart way people. The owners don't care about spending money, the GMs think they can get a miracle season from some of the key cogs on the team and everything will just magically happen like it did in 2010 for the Chiefs. Guess what? Flukes happen and won't last forever, and by that, I mean Cassel. Of course, he's not the only problem, but he's the biggest one because he's the supposed leader of the team.

I know this is a rant and I don't care. The only way action will be taken is if no one goes to Arrowhead, period. Clark Hunt needs to know that this will not be acceptable and the only way he'll know that is to continuously see an empty stadium. Local fans are even trying to buy a blimp every week running a banner that says "Fire Pioli, Bench Cassel". That's the magnitude of what fans are going through to end the stench of failure that Pioli and his regime have put this fanbase through.

Alright, that's my piece, flame away.

You protest by not showing up. You protest by not watching the games. You protest by not buying Chiefs merchandise.

You DON'T protest by wasting your money on an airplane banner. Save your money and enjoy the afternoon with your kids, don't get consumed in all of the hate.

#58ChiefsFan
10-06-2012, 10:02 AM
Thanks for the post and I 'm with you 100%.
Roster standpoint he's done a good job? Cassel and not having a decent backup QB is not a good job. Everywhere else on the roster I can agree.

I'm pretty down on Matt like a lot of people lately, he needs to either **** or get off the pot real fast. I also dislike the Quinn acquisition but to be honest we really don't know what kind of back up he is or is not. We know he couldn't "win" the starting job this year but to claim him a total failure is a bit premature. Orton exceeded my expectation of him last year and we'll have to see how this all plays out.

drstandley31
10-06-2012, 12:09 PM
Change is not the key to winning...consistency combined with fair & reasonable time for trial & error evolving to perfection...is the key to winning. The worst thing that could happen to the Chiefs at this critical 3 1/2 season mid point would be to fire the GM, start over again from the ground up.

You are correct, purging the team and starting over would not equal success. However, the trial & error means some corrections have to be made when you find the errors. Hiring a coach with a failed record as head coach, and is proving why, was an error. The same coach is our DC, and his Defense has given up 30+ points 12 times in 23 games. You have to evaluate those things and come to the conclusion that someting is on the wrong path and make a change. He was a bad choice as DC and HC and it's clear he can't do both at the same time. It's disaster. Ignoring problems doesn't equal success either!

N TX Dave
10-06-2012, 02:13 PM
Connie you and I agree most of the time but something needs to change, if nothing changes you will get the same results, if you keep failing a test because you answer the questions the same you will continue to fail until you answer them different. I think it is the QB, we have to upgrade it somehow. As much as I have supported Matt, watching the last game and him not being able to hit his receivers I can support him no longer. I no longer feel he can take us to a SB look at his record against wining teams it is atrocious, he usually does not hit his recievers in stride and a most of his passes the recievers have to leave their feet to catch so not much YAC. It appears to me that the team has lost their confidence in him, now they will never come out and say it, that is why Orton looked so good last year the team had confidence in him and played for him. I feel he is one of the reasons that Bowe does not want to sign a long term contract here, I think he wants to go to a good QB and not one that is always exposing him to the hard hit.

Connie Jo
10-06-2012, 02:30 PM
You are correct, purging the team and starting over would not equal success. However, the trial & error means some corrections have to be made when you find the errors. Hiring a coach with a failed record as head coach, and is proving why, was an error. The same coach is our DC, and his Defense has given up 30+ points 12 times in 23 games. You have to evaluate those things and come to the conclusion that someting is on the wrong path and make a change. He was a bad choice as DC and HC and it's clear he can't do both at the same time. It's disaster. Ignoring problems doesn't equal success either!

Coming off a season like we did in 2011, fan & team morale was low. The fan base & team were in overwhelming favor of Crennel being named HC. It is a fact that Clark Hunt plays an important role in all the critical decision making. There is a reason Jeff Fisher & other potential candidates to replace Haley, flew to Dallas during the off season to meet with Clark at his home there. Pioli also flew to Dallas for the coaching interviews held at Hunt's home. The reality is however, there weren't *that* many proven HC candidates available last season end. Fisher's choice of choosing St. Louis was a wiser one for him personally, than KC, considering their advantageous position in the 2012 draft, having young Bradford as QB, they're sitting pretty for a new HC's chances to succeed.

Clark is a wise & successful businessman who must look at the bigger picture, consider all pro's & con's. Promoting Crennel to HC had more pro's than con's at the time. His record at Cleveland is at best, a minimal con, since no one succeeds in Cleveland, including Belichick. Hunt knew it would be a morale boost to the fan base & team to promote Crennel to HC, & Pioli knew the same. An emotionally healthy fan base & team & winning go hand & hand.

They also knew the team was familiar with Crennel, another pro to hiring Crennel. Crennel is a successful DC, of that there is little question or doubt, that is another pro. DC's often become successful HC's.

I agree in that, the mistake in my humble opinion I believe is, Crennel attempting to do two coaching jobs, each of which respectably is a full time job & then some. Our defense looked good with Romeo as DC. I'm hopeful that mistake will be corrected by Crennel, Pioli, & Hunt in the off season, as it's not feasible to correct it now. :)

70 chiefsfan70
10-06-2012, 02:46 PM
Coming off a season like we did in 2011, fan & team morale was low. The fan base & team were in overwhelming favor of Crennel being named HC. It is a fact that Clark Hunt plays an important role in all the critical decision making. There is a reason Jeff Fisher & other potential candidates to replace Haley, flew to Dallas during the off season to meet with Clark at his home there. Pioli also flew to Dallas for the coaching interviews held at Hunt's home. The reality is however, there weren't *that* many proven HC candidates available last season end. Fisher's choice of choosing St. Louis was a wiser one for him personally, than KC, considering their advantageous position in the 2012 draft, having young Bradford as QB, they're sitting pretty for a new HC's chances to succeed.

Clark is a wise & successful businessman who must look at the bigger picture, consider all pro's & con's. Promoting Crennel to HC had more pro's than con's at the time. His record at Cleveland is at best, a minimal con, since no one succeeds in Cleveland, including Belichick. Hunt knew it would be a morale boost to the fan base & team to promote Crennel to HC, & Pioli knew the same. An emotionally healthy fan base & team & winning go hand & hand.

They also knew the team was familiar with Crennel, another pro to hiring Crennel. Crennel is a successful DC, of that there is little question or doubt, that is another pro. DC's often become successful HC's.

I agree in that, the mistake in my humble opinion I believe is, Crennel attempting to do two coaching jobs, each of which respectably is a full time job & then some. Our defense looked good with Romeo as DC. I'm hopeful that mistake will be corrected by Crennel, Pioli, & Hunt in the off season, as it's not feasible to correct it now. :)


I fully agree with this! Seems Pioli and Hunt should have learned something about this when Haley was calling the plays.


This is a matter of just being cheap or than a coach being power hungery. Either way its not leadership, nor is it being a team.

Connie Jo
10-06-2012, 02:49 PM
I also believe we will see some changes made with starting QB in 2013, assuming that is, Cassel doesn't remarkably improve his mistakes by season end & surprise all. Pioli had a serious interest in making that change in 2012, but he was limited as to options. He arranged meetings with RGIII at the Combine, and he contacted the Rams to discuss possible trade up options.

Unfortunately, Skins owner & HC, Snyder & Shanahan, have a history of violating salary caps & intentionally cheating in the draft to get who they want. Shanahan had the same history when in Denver. Oh, they're fined by the NFL for their cap/draft violations, but as Shanahan stated publicly after those fines were imposed when he was in Denver, "a slap on the wrist fine was worth it." Jerry Jones & other owners have a history of doing the same. Clark Hunt & KC do not, they tend to play by the rules.

The Skins made it perfectly clear there were no limits to what they would give up for RGIII. Pioli was wise to pass on a bidding war with them, lose some of our valuable assets needed for a potential solid teams future. I wouldn't have done it either, and this is why;

Pioli is a scout by nature. NFL scouts begin keeping their eye on potential future NFL players when they're playing in high school, through college. As such, Pioli with passing on RGIII was already very familiar with potential QB talent that will be entering the 2013 draft. Why not wisely wait one season, not give up all the Skins gave up & more, when he has the potential to draft a QB in 2013 that will be as talented, if not more so, than RGIII was projected to be? There also appears to be fewer teams to compete against in 2013 for a rookie QB, that will be in a better negotiation position than the Chiefs will be. Cassels 6 yr. contract was front loaded, we won't lose as much if he's traded, or demoted to back up in 2013.

We have Colquitt, Albert, possibly Bowe, & others whose contracts will need renewed after this season, cap money is needed to negotiate those contracts. With the new CBA guidelines that began this year, we can sign an early round QB for much less in 2013 than previous drafts. I for one, am grateful we have a financially wise GM who doesn't impulsively live in the moment and bankrupt our franchise.

Pioli isn't dumb either, if he was, he wouldn't have become the well respected & admired exec among his NFL peers that he became. Check out his bio, if not having already done so...there is no other GM available with a bio & resume comparable to Pioli's. Hunt hired the best, whether fans believe that or not, this fan does, because I took the time to do the research in depth prior to making a judgement impulsively.

Unlike many fans believe of Pioli, he is not so arrogant as to not hold himself accountable for his own mistakes. I know, I've spoke with the man one on one, and witnessed him accepting accountability for past mistakes. My respect, admiration, and belief in Scott Pioli was not just handed over to him blindly...he earned it based upon my own personal experiences interacting with the man & discussing the future of the Chiefs.

I'm also grateful KC didn't sign Manning, whom I was never in favor of from the get go, for logical & justified reasons. GO CHIEFS!!!!

#58ChiefsFan
10-06-2012, 03:08 PM
I fully agree with this! Seems Pioli and Hunt should have learned something about this when Haley was calling the plays.


This is a matter of just being cheap or than a coach being power hungery. Either way its not leadership, nor is it being a team.

At the end of 2011 Romeo had held the same HC/DC position during his interim position, the team played about as we'll as they could have given all circumstances. There was not a lot of reason to believe he couldn't replicate this in 2012.

2012 came and we are finding out different, if he would just admit it is hindering the team and give the defensive play calling to someone else so he can focus on being HC I believe there would be enough of a change to see improvement with the entire team. When your leader is overwhelmed the tendency is to try and make extra effort for the coach, be the guy who steps up. Problem is they are trying too hard to do that and ending up out of position to make the play for their assignment.

brdempsey69
10-06-2012, 03:57 PM
Sorry, but Pioli must go. All he's proven to me is that when it comes to being a GM, he couldn't pour p!ss out of a boot if the directions were on the heal of the boot itself.

Three7s is quite correct to hold the Chiefs brass accountable for what they've done and have failed to do since Pioli became GM.

70 chiefsfan70
10-06-2012, 04:09 PM
Sorry, but Pioli must go. All he's proven to me is that when it comes to being a GM, he couldn't pour p!ss out of a boot if the directions were on the heal of the boot itself.

Three7s is quite correct to hold the Chiefs brass accountable for what they've done and have failed to do since Pioli became GM.


Harsh!:lol:

brdempsey69
10-06-2012, 04:24 PM
Harsh!:lol:


Sorry, man, but I have to call it like I see it. I could write a book on why I see it that way. But, I'll start with comparing Pioli to a GM like Ted Thompson of the Packers, who has been kicking Pioli's a$$ year in and year out when it comes to evaluating talent.

Connie Jo
10-06-2012, 05:00 PM
Sorry, man, but I have to call it like I see it. I could write a book on why I see it that way. But, I'll start with comparing Pioli to a GM like Ted Thompson of the Packers, who has been kicking Pioli's a$$ year in and year out when it comes to evaluating talent.

Evaluating talent overall, or QB talent solely?

Pioli has drafted players who have made a positive impact to our team; Succop, Lewis, Hudson, Houston, McCluster, Berry, Baldwin. Pro analysts project that Powe, Poe, Arenas & others, have the talent potential to be improvements to our young team once given an average fair amount of time to evolve in their positions. Heck, many pro analysts, including those at SI, have said the Chiefs have the most talented young roster in the NFL.

To call Pioli a bust at GM based upon 3 1/2 seasons of not yet achieving playoff wins, is premature, in my humble minded opinion. One of those seasons we won the AFC West, another came within two blocked FG's of winning the division, regardless of obstacles including injuries. :)

One of those seasons also included a rare lockout, which is a worst nightmare for a GM attempting to build a young team. Again, pro analysts said young teams rebuilding like the KC Chiefs would be the most negatively affected by the lockout. Additionally, we lost Charles, Berry, & Moeaki the entire season. Yes, all teams have injuries to contend with, but when you consider the severity of 3 starters missing an entire season due to torn ACL's, that's not common in the NFL.

For sake of discussion, who would Clark replace Pioli with that would guarantee doing as good or better job, and immediately? Fans by a majority are impatient, they won't be willing to give any GM 3-5 years the average time it takes to make a transition prior to being playoff caliber.

As I said, a new GM will likely change coaching staff, new system, and roster changes too. These are changes that take a team time to adapt to...it won't happen in one season, nor two. One season hit wonders aren't the answer any way. Long term contention is what Pioli has sought, and what most fans prefer, even if they don't think so now. I guarantee after one winning season, fans will demand more.

Three7s
10-06-2012, 05:06 PM
Sorry, but Pioli must go. All he's proven to me is that when it comes to being a GM, he couldn't pour p!ss out of a boot if the directions were on the heal of the boot itself.

Three7s is quite correct to hold the Chiefs brass accountable for what they've done and have failed to do since Pioli became GM.
I know we've had our disagreements in the past, but I think both of us can tell the difference between quality and poor management of a franchise. IMO, the Falcons are probably the one that should be knocking on the door to SBs for years. Pioli should be asking his buddy Dimitroff for lessons on how to be a GM of an NFL franchise.

The reason my OP was about purging management is exactly what brdempsey mentioned. ACCOUNTABILITY! If fans don't how this team accountable, nothing will get done. Why is that? Because Pioli NEVER holds himself accountable, and that is obvious because Cassel is still the starting QB.

It has to start somewhere.

Connie Jo
10-06-2012, 05:48 PM
I've always been a person of in depth forethought, as I believe forethought is by far more valuable than hindsight. Being forced to learn lessons the hard way from hindsight is often prevented by giving serious forethought to a decision prior to making it.

Pioli has never been a person of impulsiveness, he's very articulate and thorough. Sure, he makes mistakes, just like every other human being does. No GM drafts or signs FA's without some busts. A player that fails with one team, often succeeds with another, vice versa.

There simply are no guaranteed successes in the NFL, most every decision made is a gamble on all levels. It's a process of trial, error, & elimination to achieve success long term. Short term fixes aren't a solution, nor often do they end up even a temporary fix. Expecting championships from a newly built franchise/team in less than 5 yrs.. is not the norm in the NFL, it's the rare exception.

Connie Jo
10-06-2012, 05:55 PM
Consider this as well...Good GM's are NOT a dime a dozen in the NFL, they're scarce, & most are under contract long term. If a proven successful GM should be available to replace Pioli, he will be in great demand. As such, he can afford to be choosy with which team he decides to sign with. It's not always about money, it's also about evaluating his chances for success, consideration of obstacles he might face preventing success. His career future relies upon his success.

Why would any good GM want to come to KC after what has occurred related to fan rebellion against Pioli, not just this season with the banner, but it began last season? Good GM's know the obstacles they face with rebuilding a franchise 'their way', including the obstacle of time it takes & a pre-existing negative fan base. Why put that unnecessary burden upon himself of dealing with an impatient negative fan base?

When a fan base is negative, publicly rebelling, that is one more burden a GM must deal with on a professional level making his job more difficult, and it's a distraction from important goals.

As Coach stated earlier, the appropriate & effective way to make a statement of discontent would be to simply not attend games, not buy merchandise, and not watch the games on TV either, so that ratings drop. Ratings = profit in advertising/sponsor dollars. The fans demanding other fans not attend games...are they willing not to watch the games on TV, make the same sacrifice to further their cause? I wonder, hahaha.

Public rebellion only makes it worse long term for everyone involved, including the fans on both sides of the debate. Everyone will lose in the long term.

There is a reason franchises like Philly & Oakland continue to fail. The good GM's & coaches prefer not to go there, unless no other option is available to them. KC's fan base has already been compared to that of Philly's & Oaklands in the National Media, related to when they booed Cassel at the MLB All Star Game. Most recently, on Sports Center when the negativity of the KC Chiefs fan base was being discussed following the loss to the Chargers...Sports Center commentators told KC fans viewers to try & "please stay classy", as they've historically been known to be.

brdempsey69
10-06-2012, 08:08 PM
Evaluating talent overall, or QB talent solely?


Try both.

People's Exhibit A:

2009 draft. Pioli uses the 3rd overall pick to draft a 4-3 D-Lineman to put into a 3-4 defense. Meanwhile, Thompson uses his top draft pick to take a true 3-4 NT that fits a 3-4 scheme and then trades up into the lower part of the 1st round to get an attack OLB to further enhance the 3-4 scheme. Try telling me that Jackson has panned out better than Raji or Matthews -- FORGET IT!!

People's Exhibit B:

Pioli's decision to draft 2 situational players in the 2nd round of the 2010 draft, instead of trying to land starters for both, the O-Line and Defensive Front 7 even though there were players available to help in both areas. By contrast, Thompson got his situational player with last selection of the 2nd round round in 2011, in Randall Cobb. Cobb is a far superior talent compared to Dex and Arenas and was regarded as by many as the best player on the board when the Packers took him. Dex and Arenas were NOT regarded as the BPA when the Chiefs selected them, they were major reaches.

BTW, what is the likelihood that Thompson would have traded a 2nd round pick for Cassel & paid him the huge contract that Pioli did, if Thompson were the Chiefs GM at the time......NONE!!!!




Pioli has drafted players who have made a positive impact to our team; Succop, Lewis, Hudson, Houston, McCluster, Berry, Baldwin. Pro analysts project that Powe, Poe, Arenas & others, have the talent potential to be improvements to our young team once given an average fair amount of time to evolve in their positions. Heck, many pro analysts, including those at SI, have said the Chiefs have the most talented young roster in the NFL.



I'll give him a pass on Houston, Baldwin, Powe, Hudson, & Lewis. Succop was just luck, not talent evaluation. The others that you mentioned are all reaches and have provided very little impact.

You also forgot to mention that the best players on the Chiefs roster such as Hali, Flowers, Charles, DJ, Bowe, weren't drafted by Pioli and do you really believe that the guys Pioli drafted could take up the slack if Hali, Flowers, Charles, DJ, Bowe weren't on the roster? Fat chance.




To call Pioli a bust at GM based upon 3 1/2 seasons of not yet achieving playoff wins, is premature, in my humble minded opinion. One of those seasons we won the AFC West, another came within two blocked FG's of winning the division, regardless of obstacles including injuries. :)


Sorry, but that ain't good enough. They weren't a playoff caliber team in either 2010 or 2011, as evidenced by the fact that they did not beat a single team with a winning record in 2010 and the 4 blowout losses to the AFC East in 2011. By contrast, Carl and Marty had the Chiefs competing with the big boys by 1990, their 2nd year. Pioli is in year 4 and this team has shown no progress as far as contending with the NFL's top teams.




One of those seasons also included a rare lockout, which is a worst nightmare for a GM attempting to build a young team. Again, pro analysts said young teams rebuilding like the KC Chiefs would be the most negatively affected by the lockout. Additionally, we lost Charles, Berry, & Moeaki the entire season. Yes, all teams have injuries to contend with, but when you consider the severity of 3 starters missing an entire season due to torn ACL's, that's not common in the NFL.


That is no excuse. All other teams had to endure the lockout. The 2010 Packers and 2011 Giants had to deal with even more injury casualties & they still wound up winning Super Bowls. Charles loss was significant, Berry and Moeaki, not so much.




For sake of discussion, who would Clark replace Pioli with that would guarantee doing as good or better job, and immediately? Fans by a majority are impatient, they won't be willing to give any GM 3-5 years the average time it takes to make a transition prior to being playoff caliber.


Where is it etched in stone that it takes 3-5 years to turn things around? Carl and Marty had this team in the postseason in 2 years and that 1990 squad was good enough to compete with the big boys in the NFL at that time. We are talking year 4 for Pioli and this team is getting blown out on a weekly basis in 2012. What the fans want to see is their team making progress towards becoming a contender each year & Potato Head hasn't gotten it done in his 4 years & mostly because his drafts have consisted of mostly reaches and misfires.




As I said, a new GM will likely change coaching staff, new system, and roster changes too. These are changes that take a team time to adapt to...it won't happen in one season, nor two.


So what? There isn't anything to lose at this point after 4 years of very little progress since Pioli took over. Roster changes happen with every team, every year, and coaching changes have already been like a revolving door for the Chiefs under Pioli. So what would be the difference? Other than a new GM who knows how to draft properly & is willing to try to get a franchise QB on this team, which Pioli has done neither.




One season hit wonders aren't the answer any way.


Never heard of such a thing regarding GM's & I can't even think of any remote examples. Pioli has had 4 years to right the ship & yet the ship only appears to be sunken. He seems more like a politician than a GM, anyway.



Long term contention is what Pioli has sought, and what most fans prefer, even if they don't think so now.


From where? Gutting it out of a box of Cracker Jacks? He certainly hasn't done it in the draft or at the QB position & there's been a revolving door of OC's in the coaching ranks. It's come to head and taken its toll in 2012, and anybody looking at it with any sense of diplomacy can easily see that the Chiefs aren't going to have long term contention with Pioli as GM.



I guarantee after one winning season, fans will demand more.


That's already happened with the easy schedule that they had in 2010, and luck regarding injuries that they had in 2010. Here we are 2 years later & what are fans demanding? Pioli be replaced, of course.

Connie Jo
10-07-2012, 12:52 AM
I know we've had our disagreements in the past, but I think both of us can tell the difference between quality and poor management of a franchise. IMO, the Falcons are probably the one that should be knocking on the door to SBs for years. Pioli should be asking his buddy Dimitroff for lessons on how to be a GM of an NFL franchise.

The reason my OP was about purging management is exactly what brdempsey mentioned. ACCOUNTABILITY! If fans don't how this team accountable, nothing will get done. Why is that? Because Pioli NEVER holds himself accountable, and that is obvious because Cassel is still the starting QB.

It has to start somewhere.

It's the other way around...Pioli is Dimitroff's adviser. I can back that fact up with documentation, too. :)

Connie Jo
10-07-2012, 12:58 AM
Try both.

People's Exhibit A:

2009 draft. Pioli uses the 3rd overall pick to draft a 4-3 D-Lineman to put into a 3-4 defense. Meanwhile, Thompson uses his top draft pick to take a true 3-4 NT that fits a 3-4 scheme and then trades up into the lower part of the 1st round to get an attack OLB to further enhance the 3-4 scheme. Try telling me that Jackson has panned out better than Raji or Matthews -- FORGET IT!!

People's Exhibit B:

Pioli's decision to draft 2 situational players in the 2nd round of the 2010 draft, instead of trying to land starters for both, the O-Line and Defensive Front 7 even though there were players available to help in both areas. By contrast, Thompson got his situational player with last selection of the 2nd round round in 2011, in Randall Cobb. Cobb is a far superior talent compared to Dex and Arenas and was regarded as by many as the best player on the board when the Packers took him. Dex and Arenas were NOT regarded as the BPA when the Chiefs selected them, they were major reaches.

BTW, what is the likelihood that Thompson would have traded a 2nd round pick for Cassel & paid him the huge contract that Pioli did, if Thompson were the Chiefs GM at the time......NONE!!!!



I'll give him a pass on Houston, Baldwin, Powe, Hudson, & Lewis. Succop was just luck, not talent evaluation. The others that you mentioned are all reaches and have provided very little impact.

You also forgot to mention that the best players on the Chiefs roster such as Hali, Flowers, Charles, DJ, Bowe, weren't drafted by Pioli and do you really believe that the guys Pioli drafted could take up the slack if Hali, Flowers, Charles, DJ, Bowe weren't on the roster? Fat chance.




Sorry, but that ain't good enough. They weren't a playoff caliber team in either 2010 or 2011, as evidenced by the fact that they did not beat a single team with a winning record in 2010 and the 4 blowout losses to the AFC East in 2011. By contrast, Carl and Marty had the Chiefs competing with the big boys by 1990, their 2nd year. Pioli is in year 4 and this team has shown no progress as far as contending with the NFL's top teams.



That is no excuse. All other teams had to endure the lockout. The 2010 Packers and 2011 Giants had to deal with even more injury casualties & they still wound up winning Super Bowls. Charles loss was significant, Berry and Moeaki, not so much.



Where is it etched in stone that it takes 3-5 years to turn things around? Carl and Marty had this team in the postseason in 2 years and that 1990 squad was good enough to compete with the big boys in the NFL at that time. We are talking year 4 for Pioli and this team is getting blown out on a weekly basis in 2012. What the fans want to see is their team making progress towards becoming a contender each year & Potato Head hasn't gotten it done in his 4 years & mostly because his drafts have consisted of mostly reaches and misfires.



So what? There isn't anything to lose at this point after 4 years of very little progress since Pioli took over. Roster changes happen with every team, every year, and coaching changes have already been like a revolving door for the Chiefs under Pioli. So what would be the difference? Other than a new GM who knows how to draft properly & is willing to try to get a franchise QB on this team, which Pioli has done neither.




Never heard of such a thing regarding GM's & I can't even think of any remote examples. Pioli has had 4 years to right the ship & yet the ship only appears to be sunken. He seems more like a politician than a GM, anyway.



From where? Gutting it out of a box of Cracker Jacks? He certainly hasn't done it in the draft or at the QB position & there's been a revolving door of OC's in the coaching ranks. It's come to head and taken its toll in 2012, and anybody looking at it with any sense of diplomacy can easily see that the Chiefs aren't going to have long term contention with Pioli as GM.



That's already happened with the easy schedule that they had in 2010, and luck regarding injuries that they had in 2010. Here we are 2 years later & what are fans demanding? Pioli be replaced, of course.

Brian (brdempsey69)...I can counter all points, but the time is late as I've just come across your points of debate. I need to get to bed, as I have to be up very early to be at Arrowhead tomorrow morning. I'll try to come back to this the first of the week, as I'm usually too exhausted once returning home from a game, hahaha. GO CHIEFS!!!! ;)

dl89
10-07-2012, 09:24 AM
Pioli is the reason this team is built to squeak by when everything goes exactly right and nobody is injured. His steadfast commitment to the biggest problem on the team (Cassel, obviously) has sufficiently proven that he shouldn't be the guy making big decisions in KC.

brdempsey69
10-07-2012, 11:34 AM
Pioli is the reason this team is built to squeak by when everything goes exactly right and nobody is injured. His steadfast commitment to the biggest problem on the team (Cassel, obviously) has sufficiently proven that he shouldn't be the guy making big decisions in KC.


Right on. Pioli said there would be QB competition, but as we've seen, that wasn't the case. This franchise is going no where with him calling the shots.


It's the other way around...Pioli is Dimitroff's adviser. I can back that fact up with documentation, too. :)

Apparently, Dimitroff isn't listening to Pioli judging by what he's done in his drafts. Pioli couldn't advise one of his own wet dreams.