1-5...Where do we go from here?

[Eydugstr]

It seems to me the Chiefs are in a spot where it's very unlikely that we'll be able to salvage the season. If that's the case, is it better to just let the season go, and go for a high ranking draft spot, or fight and scrap for every win we can get, and settle for where a 7-9, 8-8 or 6-10 draft position will put us?

If we go through a coaching/management change (which after the Bucs game is very likely), I'd rather play our backups and rookies and see what we've got on the benches, and then focus on getting a franchise QB. It would suck having to approach a game with a mindset of losing, though.

[brdempsey69]

Unfortunately, they already are in a mindset of losing.

The players don't believe in their coaches & as soon as something bad happens in a game, it's like a balloon popping, and there seems to be no will to fight back.

[tysticc420]

i agree let the season go and draft a qb (GENO!!!). The Colts did it..

[Ryfo18]

At this point as pathetic as it sounds, I'll take a 1-15 season for a shot at securing a QB of the future for the next 10-15 years. It's the same old story every year w/ this team. Always hoping to be better, only to let all of the fans down. It's been 19 years since this franchise has had a playoff win. I'm so disgusted by this team.

[OPLookn]

I would say we go to 1st place....in the pick for the 2013 NFL draft.

[Eydugstr]

Unfortunately, they already are in a mindset of losing. The players don't believe in their coaches & as soon as something bad happens in a game, it's like a balloon popping, and there seems to be no will to fight back.

Oh yeah, there's definitely a loss of confidence. We are constantly playing from behind, and if the fans react to the coaching decisions made on the field...Can only imagine what's going on in the players' heads when they're told to run it on 3rd and 15.

But the question remains...What now?

[CHIEFS_FN_ROCK]

At this point as pathetic as it sounds, I'll take a 1-15 season for a shot at securing a QB of the future for the next 10-15 years. It's the same old story every year w/ this team. Always hoping to be better, only to let all of the fans down. It's been 19 years since this franchise has had a playoff win. I'm so disgusted by this team.

Well put! :bananen_smilies046:

[KEITH]

:toast2: too bad we need an intire team upgrade .

[KEITH]

entire that is

[KEITH]

:meow:
I would say we go to 1st place....in the pick for the 2013 NFL draft.
cant hurt

[KEITH]

maybe if pioli is fired and entire coaching staff along with him . we can then ask little hunt to step down so he doesnt have a chance to lead us on for many more boring years.

[chief31]

Sandbagging.... First class.

[Lord-Chiefy]

If we get first pick..well trade down and get a wr. Rb and rtf

[KCraised]

This team is sandbagging on thier own, so we dont have to wish for a dumped season, the Chiefs will handle that on thier own just finnnne. And we are a S*** fanbase now in everyone's eyes, so no one is expecting a first class move anymore. Screw'em. I know it hurts certain peoples feelings to hope for a 1-15 season, but this year is DONE. 2,3,4,5 wins dont do anything for us. We need to unfortunately look towards an investment into the future and this atrocious season will give us a top 3 pick. Sad but true.

[rodu]

we are so picking FB or long snapper with out first

[reded]

I say we go after a Kicker. We need depth at that position if we're gonna keep treating the 30 yd line as the End Zone and settle for field goals instead going for TDs.

[rodu]

I say we go after a Kicker. We need depth at that position if we're gonna keep treating the 30 yd line as the End Zone and settle for field goals instead going for TDs.

going to bust out the new two kicker formation

[chief31]

Yeah... What's the point of pretending to have any dignity now.

[jb908]

Brooklyn Nets!!!! Unfortunately the Chiefs have let me down as usual. Football is over and its time for basketball.
Nets are going to be amazing and we need some fans out west. All Chiefs fans should be nets fans.

[rodu]

pick a CFL team, there s a few weeks before playoffs

[Ryfo18]

Yeah... What's the point of pretending to have any dignity now.

I've loved this franchise that hasn't won a playoff game in 19 years (going on 20). I'm fully on board one terrible season in hopes of securing a franchise QB to lead this team for the next 10-15 years, as opposed to finishing middle of the pack and continuing this mediocrity.

The Chiefs are 28-58 over the last 5 years. They've failed to win even 1/3rd of their games over this span. We had a playoff season mixed into this 5-year span that was largely a result of a seriously easy schedule in which we didn't have to beat a team over .500.

Nothing is going to change until this team finds a franchise QB that can lead them. If I don't have dignity for wishing one more season of failure in hopes of 10-15 years of success, so be it.

[KCraised]

I've loved this franchise that hasn't won a playoff game in 19 years (going on 20). I'm fully on board one terrible season in hopes of securing a franchise QB to lead this team for the next 10-15 years, as opposed to finishing middle of the pack and continuing this mediocrity.

The Chiefs are 28-58 over the last 5 years. They've failed to win even 1/3rd of their games over this span. We had a playoff season mixed into this 5-year span that was largely a result of a seriously easy schedule in which we didn't have to beat a team over .500.

Nothing is going to change until this team finds a franchise QB that can lead them. If I don't have dignity for wishing one more season of failure in hopes of 10-15 years of success, so be it.

28-58. Man, thats an ugly slap across the face statistic. Well, add that with the countless failed years with this franchise, so i would say this fanbase has had PLENTY of dignity supporting this team. Its time to leave the seats empty at Arrowhead. Time to show we arent going to put up with this product.

[matthewschiefs]

I've loved this franchise that hasn't won a playoff game in 19 years (going on 20). I'm fully on board one terrible season in hopes of securing a franchise QB to lead this team for the next 10-15 years, as opposed to finishing middle of the pack and continuing this mediocrity.

The Chiefs are 28-58 over the last 5 years. They've failed to win even 1/3rd of their games over this span. We had a playoff season mixed into this 5-year span that was largely a result of a seriously easy schedule in which we didn't have to beat a team over .500.

Nothing is going to change until this team finds a franchise QB that can lead them. If I don't have dignity for wishing one more season of failure in hopes of 10-15 years of success, so be it.

And when we get that "franchise QB" will it be all his fault when the balls are hitting our wrs in the hands get tiped up in the air and picked? Or is it just how it is with Cassel.

I love how the Cassel haters label anyone who defends him as excuse makers but you people sure do have an excuse for why we won in 2010. And I have said again and will say again those "easy teams" that we beat happend to beat Peyton Manning, Drew Brees TWICE, Philp Rivers twice. So I'm going to claim that Cassel is better then them. See how easy it is to twist the truth only useing one side of the story while throwing out the results that happen to go against ones opinion of the real story.

Nothing is going to change if we get the "franchise qb" unless the talent around that QB plays better. It's not that simple folks. Cassel hasn't played great he hasn't even played good for the most part this season but NO ONE HAS. If this team is going to go anywhere the number 1 WR can't be out preformed by little dexter Mccluster twice. Our tes have to be better real disappointed in Tony Moeaki this season. He defently didn't come back from the ACL injury as we all had hoped.

Bottom line is that if this team is going to go anywhere if the talent doesn't step up at including BUT NOT LIMITED to the Qb spot. Tanking the year for a gamble rookie is STUPID.

[Ryfo18]

And when we get that "franchise QB" will it be all his fault when the balls are hitting our wrs in the hands get tiped up in the air and picked?

They won't be getting tipped, b/c they won't be thrown high and behind the WR.

Your Cassel lovefest is hilarious. He's awful. Put Manning, Brady, Brees, even Flacco on this team, we're +.500.

Matt Cassel had more turnovers through 5 weeks than any other team. He's not an accurate QB. He's never beat a good team, and his numbers against good teams are absolutely atrocious. One game he beat Rivers in in 2010 he threw for 68 yards.

You're not gonna get it through your head that Cassel is awful, and any analyst will tell you the same.

Just a reminder:


Cassel is 3-18 when the Chiefs run it more than they pass it.
Against playoff teams in his career, Cassel averages 148 passing yards per game.
His career record vs playoff teams is 3-13
5-13 versus teams with winning records
Never finished 16th in yards per attempt


Source: Chiefs The Declaration Of Independence, MO - The People vs. Matthew Gus Brennan CasseLLLLL - ChiefsPlanet (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=261629)

I've posted this before, nothing new. You just choose to ignore it and pin it on everyone else.

Good quarterbacks make everyone better around them. Good quarterbacks throw for 300 yards against good teams. Good quarterbacks can put the team on their back when they get behind and lead them to victory (instead of throwing and fumbling the ball at an alarming rate).

That's all.

[matthewschiefs]

They won't be getting tipped, b/c they won't be thrown high and behind the WR.

Your Cassel lovefest is hilarious. He's awful. Put Manning, Brady, Brees, even Flacco on this team, we're +.500.

Matt Cassel had more turnovers through 5 weeks than any other team. He's not an accurate QB. He's never beat a good team, and his numbers against good teams are absolutely atrocious. One game he beat Rivers in in 2010 he threw for 68 yards.

You're not gonna get it through your head that Cassel is awful, and any analyst will tell you the same.

Just a reminder:


Cassel is 3-18 when the Chiefs run it more than they pass it.
Against playoff teams in his career, Cassel averages 148 passing yards per game.
His career record vs playoff teams is 3-13
5-13 versus teams with winning records
Never finished 16th in yards per attempt


Source: Chiefs The Declaration Of Independence, MO - The People vs. Matthew Gus Brennan CasseLLLLL - ChiefsPlanet (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=261629)

I've posted this before, nothing new. You just choose to ignore it and pin it on everyone else.

Good quarterbacks make everyone better around them. Good quarterbacks throw for 300 yards against good teams. Good quarterbacks can put the team on their back when they get behind and lead them to victory (instead of throwing and fumbling the ball at an alarming rate).

That's all.

It's not a lovefest to say others around them have to do there jobs. IT'S WHAT THEY ARE PAID TO DO.

Your BLIND hate for 1 guy is OLD. You take all the negitives that come with Cassel and say Look. All the good you throw out. You say the teams we beat going to a AFC west title were easy make it sound like any joe can come in and beat them. Then Peyton Manning Drew Brees both suck Right? They both lost to those teams that that horrible Matt Cassel even could beat. What did those teams suddenly just become good when they played? Your outlook just biased sue me if I don't go out of my way to hate 1 guy. You chose to say DAMN YOU CASSEL when a ball goes through a guys hands and gets picked. I think that's stupid. I think it's damn that whoever it is that let the ball go through there hands. You ignore the fact that it went through one of our wrs hands and just say Cassel sucks.

It's never 1 GUY when you get to 1-5 All you can do is bash Cassel. YES he's a part of it (LOOK ME PLACING BLAME ON CASSEL) A week ago I was looking forward to seeing if Quinn could do better. We have seen other QBs and the SAME issues as Cassel has. At what point to you start to even consider that part of what's wrong is NOT Matt Cassel. I Challange you to find one post of mine that says Cassel is even good. I don't think I have ever said it. But the BLIND HATE on him is OLD. We get it Cassel isn't great it has been established why don't we also talk about our number 1 wr who no shows games at times. Where are the threads about him? Where are the threads about the poor te play? Where are the threads about others. Don't you think all that plays a factor.

But I guess it's all cassels fault. Lets just also blame him for the Economy,Global warming,The mayans doomsday,Honey boo boo. And hell I stubed my toe at work today I'm sure that's Cassel's fault as well.

[LargoChief]

Cassel sucks

[Ryfo18]

Then Peyton Manning Drew Brees both suck Right? They both lost to those teams that that horrible Matt Cassel even could beat.

Incorrect. Matt Cassel has never beaten Peyton Manning. He's played him twice and is 0-2, with 360 passing yards in those 2 games, 0 touchdowns, and 1 interception.

[matthewschiefs]

Incorrect. Matt Cassel has never beaten Peyton Manning. He's played him twice and is 0-2, with 360 passing yards in those 2 games, 0 touchdowns, and 1 interception.

That's not what I was saying. The teams that you deem so weak that we shouldn't give Cassel credit for beating beat Peyton Manning and Drew Brees that year. IF those teams are so god awful that Cassel can even get a win wouldn't that mean those to suck?

[Ryfo18]

That's not what I was saying. The teams that you deem so weak that we shouldn't give Cassel credit for beating beat Peyton Manning and Drew Brees that year. IF those teams are so god awful that Cassel can even get a win wouldn't that mean those to suck?

I'm not following...He has never beat Peyton Manning.

[matthewschiefs]

I'm not following...He has never beat Peyton Manning.

You're right he hasn't but you and other haters keep saying 2010 was because we played weak teams so you want to throw all of those wins out. Well those teams beat Peyton Manning and Drew Brees Twice. If those teams are so weak then why were they able to beat two qbs that are much better then Cassel? Or do you just want to ignore the 10-6 AFC west title because you have it out for Cassel and can't be fair to him?

[Ryfo18]

You're right he hasn't but you and other haters keep saying 2010 was because we played weak teams so you want to throw all of those wins out. Well those teams beat Peyton Manning and Drew Brees Twice. If those teams are so weak then why were they able to beat two qbs that are much better then Cassel? Or do you just want to ignore the 10-6 AFC west title because you have it out for Cassel and can't be fair to him?

Yeah, the transitive property, while fundamental to Mathematics, unfortunately does not apply to sports.

If you're not ready to give up on Cassel, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. How about instead of replace the many problems you claim we have, we just start with the QB. Bad QB play continues to be a constant, no matter the personnel around.

Really the ultimate test will be seeing what Bowe does with a good QB when he leaves next year. I have no doubt he's one of the best WRs in the NFL.

Goodnight man.

[texaschief]

We can still be the Seahawks from a couple years ago. Playing in the worst division where a losing record could get us in and could even get us a playoff win. lol

Put in Stanzi and let's see where it takes us. How sad is it that this team is ONLY two games out of first? :lol:

[Ryfo18]

Ok last post I promise, I just feel it illustrates my point.

What do Buffalo, Cleveland, Jacksonville, Tennessee, Detroit (prior to Stafford), Tampa Bay, Wahington (prior to RGIII), Seattle, Arizona, St. Louis, an Kansas City have in common, other than they consistently are bottom feeders in this league?

[matthewschiefs]

Yeah, the transitive property, while fundamental to Mathematics, unfortunately does not apply to sports.

If you're not ready to give up on Cassel, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. How about instead of replace the many problems you claim we have, we just start with the QB. Bad QB play continues to be a constant, no matter the personnel around.

Really the ultimate test will be seeing what Bowe does with a good QB when he leaves next year. I have no doubt he's one of the best WRs in the NFL.

Goodnight man.
So let me ask If those teams that we beat in 2010 were so bad that we shouldn't give credit to Cassel for the 2010 season and just look at all the bad years then why were they able to beat Peyton Manning? Why did they beat Brees twice including in the playoffs? I have yet to here one good answer to this

We have changed qbs 3 other qbs have come in Palko sucked. Orton outside one good game against a bad Packers defense moved the ball but couldn't get it in the endzone we have seen that from Cassel as well. Quinn had the balls bounceing off his WRs and get picked. We have seen that with Cassel as well. At some point you have to look and see that there are many others not doing the job at a high level as well. And that's hurting the team. Case and point go back to Sundays games Look what the Bucs WRs did. Look at ours. It's no contest. There Qb passed high as well. Instead of it going off there guys hands THEY MADE A PLAY. Our Number 1 Wr had 21 yards receving. There guy had more then that one 1 play. Steve Maneri more the doubled up what Bowe did. Tampa had 3 guys that more then doubled up what our #1 WR did. That's saying something. You don't think that plays a role?

If that keeps going it wouldn't matter who's playing qb there not going to have a lot of success. Great Qbs make those around them better while that's true it doesn't excuse our guys for not doing there jobs. Bowe is one of the most talented WRs in the NFL. Yet he doesn't always play like it. That's a problem just like Cassel. You can say if we had a franchise qb we would be better off I agree 100% But if our #1 Wr didn't have games like he had Sunday we would also be better off. IF our guys could learn to catch the ball and not tip the ball to the defender we would also be better off. If our D played better we would also be better off. IF our o line protected better we would also be better off. If our coaches coached better we would also be better off. If our playcalling wasn't so predictable we would also be better off. This is a TEAM problem. It's not as simple as saying get a franchise qb and those problems will go away. Our whole team QBS included have to play better. If they don't any QB is going to struggle.

[Isawa_mo]

So let me ask If those teams that we beat in 2010 were so bad that we shouldn't give credit to Cassel for the 2010 season and just look at all the bad years then why were they able to beat Peyton Manning? Why did they beat Brees twice including in the playoffs? I have yet to here one good answer to this

We have changed qbs 3 other qbs have come in Palko sucked. Orton outside one good game against a bad Packers defense moved the ball but couldn't get it in the endzone we have seen that from Cassel as well. Quinn had the balls bounceing off his WRs and get picked. We have seen that with Cassel as well. At some point you have to look and see that there are many others not doing the job at a high level as well. And that's hurting the team. Case and point go back to Sundays games Look what the Bucs WRs did. Look at ours. It's no contest. There Qb passed high as well. Instead of it going off there guys hands THEY MADE A PLAY. Our Number 1 Wr had 21 yards receving. There guy had more then that one 1 play. Steve Maneri more the doubled up what Bowe did. Tampa had 3 guys that more then doubled up what our #1 WR did. That's saying something. You don't think that plays a role?

If that keeps going it wouldn't matter who's playing qb there not going to have a lot of success. Great Qbs make those around them better while that's true it doesn't excuse our guys for not doing there jobs. Bowe is one of the most talented WRs in the NFL. Yet he doesn't always play like it. That's a problem just like Cassel. You can say if we had a franchise qb we would be better off I agree 100% But if our #1 Wr didn't have games like he had Sunday we would also be better off. IF our guys could learn to catch the ball and not tip the ball to the defender we would also be better off. If our D played better we would also be better off. IF our o line protected better we would also be better off. If our coaches coached better we would also be better off. If our playcalling wasn't so predictable we would also be better off. This is a TEAM problem. It's not as simple as saying get a franchise qb and those problems will go away. Our whole team QBS included have to play better. If they don't any QB is going to struggle.


Lets take this from a different angle. You argue the rest of the team is not up to snuff either. Agreed. We need better all around. It is common now days to get the QB in place then add the talent around him that compliments his strengths/weaknesses. Heck, they tried to do it here. Why don't we have a speed burner WR? They do not have a QB on the team that can make the down field throws to take advantage. They had a chance to add that type of receiver, but they instead added another receiver like Bowe.

There is a reason it often goes QB first, btw. Typically, your team is bad enough to get into that position to draft high enough to get one of those QBs. Once your team is more talented you start hitting the middle of the pack and no longer are in position to pickup the guy.

I would like to add, btw. None of the QBs we have tried would/have/are starting for other teams and flourishing. If they have all been the same poor options, then they are a bad example for you to use.

[OPLookn]

Sandbagging.... First class.

Sadly we haven't even had to ask for sandbagging lately. It's been happening naturally.

[OPLookn]

So let me ask If those teams that we beat in 2010 were so bad that we shouldn't give credit to Cassel for the 2010 season and just look at all the bad years then why were they able to beat Peyton Manning? Why did they beat Brees twice including in the playoffs? I have yet to here one good answer to this.

Because your line of thinking is tired Matt, hat's why. I'm sick of hearing this line. Did those events happen? Yes. But guess what we beat the Saints and the Saints beat the Chargers so we're better then the Chargers right? Things just simply don't work that way no matter how much you want them too.




We have changed qbs 3 other qbs have come in Palko sucked. Orton outside one good game against a bad Packers defense moved the ball but couldn't get it in the endzone we have seen that from Cassel as well. Quinn had the balls bounceing off his WRs and get picked. We have seen that with Cassel as well. At some point you have to look and see that there are many others not doing the job at a high level as well. And that's hurting the team. Case and point go back to Sundays games Look what the Bucs WRs did. Look at ours. It's no contest. There Qb passed high as well. Instead of it going off there guys hands THEY MADE A PLAY. Our Number 1 Wr had 21 yards receving. There guy had more then that one 1 play. Steve Maneri more the doubled up what Bowe did. Tampa had 3 guys that more then doubled up what our #1 WR did. That's saying something. You don't think that plays a role?

So now because out QB's have sucked we're going to pin it on the WR's and we need new WR's? C'mon now. If your QB's have constantly sucked instead of trying to find a receiver that has go go gadget arms wouldn't the better idea be to go out and get a good QB when you have the chance? That's what everyone has been saying with this year. Some now want the Chiefs to lose but most just want the chance to get a guy that's going to throw good passes. Don't throw out the good parts because dang it we're going to make this bad part work.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe our WR's look bad with Quinn is because they're so used to suck with Cassel that they adjust their play? Quinn hasn't started in the same amount of time that Cassel HAS started. You don't think there will be some rust to be removed? Add into it that one of Quinn's int's wasn't his fault and the other should have been caught but wasn't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and half Cassel's int's this year. He's still had 4.5 int's and 4 fumbles...in 5 games. That's almost an average of an int that was his fault (almost 2 overall) and one fumble a game. Over his career he's had 54 int's and 22 fumbles....22!!! While Quinn isn't the answer when all things are equal and the season is all but over you go with change for change's sake.



If that keeps going it wouldn't matter who's playing qb there not going to have a lot of success. Great Qbs make those around them better while that's true it doesn't excuse our guys for not doing there jobs. Bowe is one of the most talented WRs in the NFL. Yet he doesn't always play like it. That's a problem just like Cassel. You can say if we had a franchise qb we would be better off I agree 100% But if our #1 Wr didn't have games like he had Sunday we would also be better off. IF our guys could learn to catch the ball and not tip the ball to the defender we would also be better off. If our D played better we would also be better off. IF our o line protected better we would also be better off. If our coaches coached better we would also be better off. If our playcalling wasn't so predictable we would also be better off. This is a TEAM problem. It's not as simple as saying get a franchise qb and those problems will go away. Our whole team QBS included have to play better. If they don't any QB is going to struggle.
While I agree with your statement if you're missing the needle off a compass you'll always be lost. I don't care how bad the other parts around it are. Don't take that as me disagreeing. I completely agree with this statement. But it starts with the QB. There's a reason when teams are rebuilding that they start with and go out and get a franchise QB.

[brdempsey69]

You know, I keep hearing this term "Franchise QB" and I'm starting to believe it's way overblown & ripped out of context.

If one were to define "Franchise QB" as being the QB that "by himself" can carry a team to a Super Bowl victory -- the closest that one could come to that would be Joe Montana with the 49ers in 1981.

To me, the term "Quality QB" or "Great QB" sounds better than "Franchise QB". No QB can really succeed in the NFL and get to the post-season and have success there without a good supporting cast. matthewschiefs is quite correct in this regard -- look no further than the 1969 Chiefs for proof.

Regarding the '69 Chiefs, Len Dawson was excellent QB, but look at the supporting cast that he had that year. Very good skill position players, very good O-Line, very good Special Teams, and last, but not least, a Defense that not only finished 1st in every major statistical category in the AFL, they also just physically beat the living hell out of opponents all year long. And don't forget HC Hank Stram.

I do believe that the Chiefs have to get a great QB from somewhere this off-season, but the rest of the team must also improve their performance in 2013 and beyond, if the Chiefs are going to get back in the post-season hunt.

[matthewschiefs]

I would like to add, btw. None of the QBs we have tried would/have/are starting for other teams and flourishing. If they have all been the same poor options, then they are a bad example for you to use.

Funny all we have heard since January is how Stupid Pioli is for not bringing Orton back. Funny how now that it's pointed out that he had the same issues with Cassel no all of a sudden he's a "bad option"

[matthewschiefs]

Because your line of thinking is tired Matt, hat's why. I'm sick of hearing this line. Did those events happen? Yes. But guess what we beat the Saints and the Saints beat the Chargers so we're better then the Chargers right? Things just simply don't work that way no matter how much you want them too.

THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. You're missing the whole point. The haters time and time again throw out the bad numbers for Cassel and say look. You claim that 2010 shouldn't count because of the weak teams that we beat. THE POINT IS THOSE "weak teams" BEAT SOME PRETTY GOOD TEAMS. How? If those teams are so bad we shouldn't give Cassel credit how can they beat teams with some of the best QBs in the NFL? What did they suddenly turn good when they faced those teams? You haters call anyone excuse makers funny how you have all the excuses for when Cassel does well.




So now because out QB's have sucked we're going to pin it on the WR's and we need new WR's? C'mon now. If your QB's have constantly sucked instead of trying to find a receiver that has go go gadget arms wouldn't the better idea be to go out and get a good QB when you have the chance? That's what everyone has been saying with this year. Some now want the Chiefs to lose but most just want the chance to get a guy that's going to throw good passes. Don't throw out the good parts because dang it we're going to make this bad part work.

Then you tell me how is it that multiple qbs have had the same issues. Everyone was whineing about how Orton should have been brought back he had some of the sames issues. WHY? Can you explain that to me? At some point you have to look at the talent around Cassel as well. At some point you have to see that others are not doing there jobs. At some point you have to see that there are passes hitting our guys in the hands that are not being caught. Why is Cassel the only qb in the NFL who's job it is to catch the ball for his WRs? ANd before you give me the high passes look at Tampa's WRS. Why is it that Mike Williams can make plays with a high ball but our guys can't?


Did you ever stop to think that maybe our WR's look bad with Quinn is because they're so used to suck with Cassel that they adjust their play? Quinn hasn't started in the same amount of time that Cassel HAS started. You don't think there will be some rust to be removed? Add into it that one of Quinn's int's wasn't his fault and the other should have been caught but wasn't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and half Cassel's int's this year. He's still had 4.5 int's and 4 fumbles...in 5 games. That's almost an average of an int that was his fault (almost 2 overall) and one fumble a game. Over his career he's had 54 int's and 22 fumbles....22!!! While Quinn isn't the answer when all things are equal and the season is all but over you go with change for change's sake.

REALLY? That's how far the hate for Cassel goes. Now he's to blame when he didn't even play? GIVE ME A BREAK. Keep hating though it's all you can do. You just can't be fair to him.



While I agree with your statement if you're missing the needle off a compass you'll always be lost. I don't care how bad the other parts around it are. Don't take that as me disagreeing. I completely agree with this statement. But it starts with the QB. There's a reason when teams are rebuilding that they start with and go out and get a franchise QB.

And if you have that needle of the compass if nothing else works it won't work either. It goes both ways. Right now yes the compass is broken but the whole compass is broken. And if we just fix the needle we won't get that much better of a result. When looking at a broken compass some would say the compass is broken instead of the needle is broken. Unlike most on here who just say the needle is broken I say the compass is broken

[Ryfo18]

Then you tell me how is it that multiple qbs have had the same issues.

Because they all are below average NFL QBs. It's that simple, Matt. None of them can throw a deep ball, none of them are accurate on timing routes...they're just not good. It's that simple.

As far as Orton goes, people saw him as an upgrade to Cassel, and I think that's it. He's still a below average NFL QB.

Try this on for size. Profootballfocus grades every play of every game for every player. Here is where Cassel ranked among QBs from 2008-2012:

2009: 38th
2010 (best season): 20th
2011: 21st (Orton was 22nd)
2012: 30th

Again, this screams BELOW AVERAGE.

The only QBs Cassel has graded out better than this year are Andy Dalton, Brandon Weeden, and Ryan Fitzpatrick.

[matthewschiefs]

Because they all are below average NFL QBs. It's that simple, Matt. None of them can throw a deep ball, none of them are accurate on timing routes...they're just not good. It's that simple.

As far as Orton goes, people saw him as an upgrade to Cassel, and I think that's it. He's still a below average NFL QB.

Try this on for size. Profootballfocus grades every play of every game for every player. Here is where Cassel ranked among QBs from 2008-2012:

2009: 38th
2010 (best season): 20th
2011: 21st (Orton was 22nd)
2012: 30th

Again, this screams BELOW AVERAGE.

The only QBs Cassel has graded out better than this year are Andy Dalton, Brandon Weeden, and Ryan Fitzpatrick.

I challenge you to find our wrs ratings in the same time I bet it pretty below average to. like in 2009 when our Wrs where dropping passes at RECORD rate.

I 100% agree that the QB play has been below average but I don't just look at that. Sundays game is case and point. When you have 3 guys on the other team more then double what you get out of you're number 1 WR that screams problem with others outside the qb. When your backup TE is doubling the numbers of your number 1 WR That screams problems outside your Qb. Yet all you can do is scream and whine about the QB. Has poor qb play hurt people around them YES it has. But it goes both ways.

[Bike]

Not a lot available at the moment so if I was Clark, I would do the following NOW - during the bye week.
1. Fire Pioli. Let Donavon finish the year out.
2. Fire Crennel. Jim Zorn to finish the year out.
3. Fire Dabol. Cooter to finish the year out.
4. Fire WR coach Nick Sirianni. Just fire him.
5. Emmitt Thomas new DC.

[buffman316]

At this point as pathetic as it sounds, I'll take a 1-15 season for a shot at securing a QB of the future for the next 10-15 years. It's the same old story every year w/ this team. Always hoping to be better, only to let all of the fans down. It's been 19 years since this franchise has had a playoff win. I'm so disgusted by this team.

You are right on. Scrap this season for Geno Smith and let's have a great season next year. Look at the much improved Colts for inspiration.

[reded]

Sounds like a plan Bike. Whats the worst that could happen....we lose to the Raiders and are ranked dead last again in two weeks?

[buffman316]

this team is disgusting

[Ryfo18]

I challenge you to find our wrs ratings in the same time I bet it pretty below average to. like in 2009 when our Wrs where dropping passes at RECORD rate.

I 100% agree that the QB play has been below average but I don't just look at that. Sundays game is case and point. When you have 3 guys on the other team more then double what you get out of you're number 1 WR that screams problem with others outside the qb. When your backup TE is doubling the numbers of your number 1 WR That screams problems outside your Qb. Yet all you can do is scream and whine about the QB. Has poor qb play hurt people around them YES it has. But it goes both ways.

2009: Chambers 19, Bowe 81
2010: Bowe 16, Copper 56
2011: Bowe 11, Breaston 33
2012: Bowe 14, Baldwin 56

So every year, Cassel has had a top 20 WR to throw to.

You can spare me the "why are our WRs not doing anything". It's because the QBs can't throw the ball down the field. Why do you think Josh Freeman's yds/att is 7.7 (8th in the league) while Cassel is 6.5 (right at his career average, 29th in the league), Quinn is 5.3 (right at his career average, dead last in the league). That's why they're dumping it off to the backup TE 3 yards down the field.

Why do you think the Chiefs have run the ball the 3rd most in the league (205 times)? Because they don't trust their quarterbacks to make first downs. Why do the Chiefs run the ball an insane number of times on 3rd and 6? Because they don't trust their quarterbacks to make first downs.

Well respected analyst Ron Jaworski ranks Cassel as the 22nd best QB in the league: http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/43623/jaws-qb-countdown-aaron-rodgers-no-1

I'm done trying to convince you. Take care.

[Ryfo18]

You are right on. Scrap this season for Geno Smith and let's have a great season next year. Look at the much improved Colts for inspiration.

If that's sarcasm, nice try. The Colts have already won as many games as they won all last year (and more than the Chiefs).

[buffman316]

If that's sarcasm, nice try. The Colts have already won as many games as they won all last year (and more than the Chiefs).

Not sarcasm at all. I am in full agreement with you.

[buffman316]

the Colts did the right thing for sure.

[OPLookn]

THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. You're missing the whole point. The haters time and time again throw out the bad numbers for Cassel and say look. You claim that 2010 shouldn't count because of the weak teams that we beat. THE POINT IS THOSE "weak teams" BEAT SOME PRETTY GOOD TEAMS. How? If those teams are so bad we shouldn't give Cassel credit how can they beat teams with some of the best QBs in the NFL? What did they suddenly turn good when they faced those teams? You haters call anyone excuse makers funny how you have all the excuses for when Cassel does well.
No I get the whole point. Unfortunately we're trying to narrow down a whole game to a single point and it just can't be done. But something that definitely doesn't work is trying to say team a beat team b, team b beat team c so therefore team a is better then c. Simply doesn't work.

The reason some of those teams beat others has many reasons. Maybe a QB has an off day, maybe a CB misses tackles that day, maybe a running back that's been averaging Arian Foster type #'s has a family member sick or worse and his head isn't in the game. There are so many reasons as to why a team beats another team. Matchups are better or worse, a scheme plays well against us but sucks against someone else, on and on, etc.

But this standing up for Cassel when he's had poor play simply because others are "hating"...is getting absurd. When it comes down to it, bottom line, either you think Cassel is good enough to be our starting QB or he's not. If he's not then what's it matter if people are "hating" on him. They're saying he needs to be replaced just like you (if indeed you do want him replaced) but in varying flavors.




Then you tell me how is it that multiple qbs have had the same issues. Everyone was whineing about how Orton should have been brought back he had some of the sames issues. WHY? Can you explain that to me? At some point you have to look at the talent around Cassel as well. At some point you have to see that others are not doing there jobs. At some point you have to see that there are passes hitting our guys in the hands that are not being caught. Why is Cassel the only qb in the NFL who's job it is to catch the ball for his WRs? ANd before you give me the high passes look at Tampa's WRS. Why is it that Mike Williams can make plays with a high ball but our guys can't?

Because multiple QB's here have sucked. I seriously think our last good QB that was here that managed the team was Trent Green. Our last great QB that went out as a leader was Montana in his twilight years.



REALLY? That's how far the hate for Cassel goes. Now he's to blame when he didn't even play? GIVE ME A BREAK. Keep hating though it's all you can do. You just can't be fair to him.

How am I blaming Cassel when he didn't play? What in the world are you talking about?!? We've played 6 games, 5 of which Cassel has played in. Those are the stats I'm using and breaking down into an average. What in the heck are you talking about that I'm blaming him when he didn't play.

What I was alluding to is that Quinn didn't go out and light the world up. Cassel has had 176 attempts 176/5 is around 35 passes a game. Quinn threw 40 attempts so they're attempting about as much on average. Turnover wise Quinn had less int's that were his fault...heck I'll put one of those turnovers on Quinn. Cassel averages 2 but I'll say that half aren't his fault. If you can tell me how many actually were I'll go with that. Seriously, I don't know, all I have are numbers unfortunately. But he fumbles the ball on average once a game.

So to me when you have about the same amount of int's, less fumbles, same attempts and about the same completions (Cassel 58.5%, Quinn 60%) you go with Quinn. It's not a slight against Cassel, it's not that I hate him I just want to give Quinn more chances to show what we've got in him. This broad brush that you apply anyone who speaks down on Cassel is getting pretty broad.



And if you have that needle of the compass if nothing else works it won't work either. It goes both ways. Right now yes the compass is broken but the whole compass is broken. And if we just fix the needle we won't get that much better of a result. When looking at a broken compass some would say the compass is broken instead of the needle is broken. Unlike most on here who just say the needle is broken I say the compass is broken

I'm not trying to be a d**k but a compass basically is the needle. I can't remember all the details but if you do something to a pine needle and put it on a leaf, then put the leaf on water it'll point north. Random knowledge but back the point.

Is our whole team broken? I'd say no but I feel like a lot of that is coaching. So do we need a better coach yes. But that's something that's outside of the players. Inside of the players 9 times out of 10 a team starts rebuilding or fixing themselves by getting a new QB. I'd agree that the term "franchise QB" is over used but to me it basically means that this is the guy that's going to start if he physically can. Any other QB is a backup. To me that's a franchise QB and it's time to get a new one.

[matthewschiefs]

You are right on. Scrap this season for Geno Smith and let's have a great season next year. Look at the much improved Colts for inspiration.
THAT'S STUPID 100% STUPID. For ever Luck there's a Jamarcus Russel. For every Peyton Manning there's a Ryan Leaf.

2009: Chambers 19, Bowe 81
2010: Bowe 16, Copper 56
2011: Bowe 11, Breaston 33
2012: Bowe 14, Baldwin 56

So every year, Cassel has had a top 20 WR to throw to.

You can spare me the "why are our WRs not doing anything". It's because the QBs can't throw the ball down the field. Why do you think Josh Freeman's yds/att is 7.7 (8th in the league) while Cassel is 6.5 (right at his career average, 29th in the league), Quinn is 5.3 (right at his career average, dead last in the league). That's why they're dumping it off to the backup TE 3 yards down the field.

Why do you think the Chiefs have run the ball the 3rd most in the league (205 times)? Because they don't trust their quarterbacks to make first downs. Why do the Chiefs run the ball an insane number of times on 3rd and 6? Because they don't trust their quarterbacks to make first downs.

Well respected analyst Ron Jaworski ranks Cassel as the 22nd best QB in the league: Jaws' QB Countdown: Aaron Rodgers No. 1 - NFC North Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/43623/jaws-qb-countdown-aaron-rodgers-no-1)

I'm done trying to convince you. Take care.

And that 1 top 20 WR has games like Sunday where he gets out preformed by the backup te. If the qb can't get Bowe the ball then what is it some other qb throwing the ball to the backup te? Mccluster has out done Bowe twice this year. What is it some other QB throwing him the ball to? Strange others seem to get the ball when our top 20 can't. But ya I'm sure the qb is to blame for that 2. Really keep hating it's all your able to do. Throw out any good thing Cassel has done and only look at the bad. It's what you haters do over and over.


No I get the whole point. Unfortunately we're trying to narrow down a whole game to a single point and it just can't be done. But something that definitely doesn't work is trying to say team a beat team b, team b beat team c so therefore team a is better then c. Simply doesn't work.

The reason some of those teams beat others has many reasons. Maybe a QB has an off day, maybe a CB misses tackles that day, maybe a running back that's been averaging Arian Foster type #'s has a family member sick or worse and his head isn't in the game. There are so many reasons as to why a team beats another team. Matchups are better or worse, a scheme plays well against us but sucks against someone else, on and on, etc.

But this standing up for Cassel when he's had poor play simply because others are "hating"...is getting absurd. When it comes down to it, bottom line, either you think Cassel is good enough to be our starting QB or he's not. If he's not then what's it matter if people are "hating" on him. They're saying he needs to be replaced just like you (if indeed you do want him replaced) but in varying flavors.




Because multiple QB's here have sucked. I seriously think our last good QB that was here that managed the team was Trent Green. Our last great QB that went out as a leader was Montana in his twilight years.



How am I blaming Cassel when he didn't play? What in the world are you talking about?!? We've played 6 games, 5 of which Cassel has played in. Those are the stats I'm using and breaking down into an average. What in the heck are you talking about that I'm blaming him when he didn't play.

What I was alluding to is that Quinn didn't go out and light the world up. Cassel has had 176 attempts 176/5 is around 35 passes a game. Quinn threw 40 attempts so they're attempting about as much on average. Turnover wise Quinn had less int's that were his fault...heck I'll put one of those turnovers on Quinn. Cassel averages 2 but I'll say that half aren't his fault. If you can tell me how many actually were I'll go with that. Seriously, I don't know, all I have are numbers unfortunately. But he fumbles the ball on average once a game.

So to me when you have about the same amount of int's, less fumbles, same attempts and about the same completions (Cassel 58.5%, Quinn 60%) you go with Quinn. It's not a slight against Cassel, it's not that I hate him I just want to give Quinn more chances to show what we've got in him. This broad brush that you apply anyone who speaks down on Cassel is getting pretty broad.



I'm not trying to be a d**k but a compass basically is the needle. I can't remember all the details but if you do something to a pine needle and put it on a leaf, then put the leaf on water it'll point north. Random knowledge but back the point.

Is our whole team broken? I'd say no but I feel like a lot of that is coaching. So do we need a better coach yes. But that's something that's outside of the players. Inside of the players 9 times out of 10 a team starts rebuilding or fixing themselves by getting a new QB. I'd agree that the term "franchise QB" is over used but to me it basically means that this is the guy that's going to start if he physically can. Any other QB is a backup. To me that's a franchise QB and it's time to get a new one.

So now the game can't be broken down to one thing but all you haters can do is say look at Cassel's numbers. You can't have it both ways/

Your hating is what absurd you whine and moan about Cassel OVER AND OVER. When the d wasn't stopping ANYONE in the first 2 weeks it was Whine about Cassel. During the Bills game people talked about Bowe having a good game. But Cassel "only put up numbers when the game was over" They put up there numbers at the same time. What did Bowe go play a different game? You over and over again make excuses for why the team did well while Cassel was in there at times. REALLY? You can't see the blind hate. Making excuses for why we win? YOU DON'T LIKE CASSEL WE GET IT GET OVER IT. The constant hate for Cassel the constant whineing about Cassel is what's absurd.

How did you blame Cassel. This quote.


Did you ever stop to think that maybe our WR's look bad with Quinn is because they're so used to suck with Cassel that they adjust their play?

If you can't see the blame in Cassel there your hate has reached the point that you can't see when you're blaming Cassel?

I have no problem changeing QBs. GO look at the game post. I have been down on Cassel as well. But to say that with a franchise qb things will get better just like that. Or to not hold others accountable when they mess up but only call out Cassel is hating. Holding every one accountable is not defending it's being fair. When your number 1 wr is getting out preformed by a backup TE there are more problems then just the QB. PERIOD.

I'm done with you haters. You keep hating Cassel and think that no matter how many other qbs have had the same issues that a franchise QB is the answer to all our problems. I will call Cassel or any other qb out when they fail. I started a thread when it was time for me to hate on the qb. Go look at the game threads I have bashed Cassel when I felt it was fair to bash him. But I won't just call him out. To only call out 1 guy is unfair. But keep living in your little world where it's the evil Matt Cassel keeping us for winning. I'll stay in the real world where yes Cassel is a part of why we are losing but there are many other parts as well. I won't just keep whineing about 1 part I will whine about every part.

[OPLookn]

So now the game can't be broken down to one thing but all you haters can do is say look at Cassel's numbers. You can't have it both ways/


Again you compare apples to oranges. When I compare numbers it's for a player. When I give reasons as to why a TEAM might lose it's a collection of players. When you throw a lot of wrenches into a machine any one of them might cause the problem. When you see one wrench causing more problems then the rest guess what?!? I'm going to say that wrench needs to be removed.

Good grief it's all or nothing with you.



Your hating is what absurd you whine and moan about Cassel OVER AND OVER. When the d wasn't stopping ANYONE in the first 2 weeks it was Whine about Cassel. During the Bills game people talked about Bowe having a good game. But Cassel "only put up numbers when the game was over" They put up there numbers at the same time. What did Bowe go play a different game? You over and over again make excuses for why the team did well while Cassel was in there at times. REALLY? You can't see the blind hate. Making excuses for why we win? YOU DON'T LIKE CASSEL WE GET IT GET OVER IT. The constant hate for Cassel the constant whineing about Cassel is what's absurd.

How did you blame Cassel. This quote.



If you can't see the blame in Cassel there your hate has reached the point that you can't see when you're blaming Cassel?

I have no problem changeing QBs. GO look at the game post. I have been down on Cassel as well. But to say that with a franchise qb things will get better just like that. Or to not hold others accountable when they mess up but only call out Cassel is hating. Holding every one accountable is not defending it's being fair. When your number 1 wr is getting out preformed by a backup TE there are more problems then just the QB. PERIOD.

I'm done with you haters. You keep hating Cassel and think that no matter how many other qbs have had the same issues that a franchise QB is the answer to all our problems. I will call Cassel or any other qb out when they fail. I started a thread when it was time for me to hate on the qb. Go look at the game threads I have bashed Cassel when I felt it was fair to bash him. But I won't just call him out. To only call out 1 guy is unfair. But keep living in your little world where it's the evil Matt Cassel keeping us for winning. I'll stay in the real world where yes Cassel is a part of why we are losing but there are many other parts as well. I won't just keep whineing about 1 part I will whine about every part.

I saw the thread where you called him out. I'll admit that I've come here less often than before and don't post in as many threads now a days. The main reason is that I'm tired of people calling anyone that is trying to discuss Quinn vs Cassel as "whiners" and "haters".

You'll note that no where did I say if we replace Cassel that we'll instantly win. I'm not quite sure where you got that or why (again) you're painting in broad strokes with me. Show me one place where I say if we replace Cassel everything will be fine?

If I said anything it was to try the receivers with the new QB and they might be better or something to that extent. I'll tell you what though, it's the last time I try and discuss anything with you because I'm sick of throwing out stats for a possible discussion of why one person should start over the other only to be labeled a "whiner" and a "hater". Have fun arguing with people who just throw out "Cassel sucks, replace him".

[Seek]

I am all in favor for tanking the season, but I am guessing that everyong saying this Does not have Season Tickets. It is the Chiefs DUTY to try and win every dang game they can in Arrowhead. They have loyal fans who spent their hard earned money to go watch this crap. I had enough last year and did not renew, but if the Chiefs BURN a season for draft picks. They will have to earn Loyalty again and I am not sure they can risk that.

[matthewschiefs]

Again you compare apples to oranges. When I compare numbers it's for a player. When I give reasons as to why a TEAM might lose it's a collection of players. When you throw a lot of wrenches into a machine any one of them might cause the problem. When you see one wrench causing more problems then the rest guess what?!? I'm going to say that wrench needs to be removed.

Good grief it's all or nothing with you.



I saw the thread where you called him out. I'll admit that I've come here less often than before and don't post in as many threads now a days. The main reason is that I'm tired of people calling anyone that is trying to discuss Quinn vs Cassel as "whiners" and "haters".

You'll note that no where did I say if we replace Cassel that we'll instantly win. I'm not quite sure where you got that or why (again) you're painting in broad strokes with me. Show me one place where I say if we replace Cassel everything will be fine?

If I said anything it was to try the receivers with the new QB and they might be better or something to that extent. I'll tell you what though, it's the last time I try and discuss anything with you because I'm sick of throwing out stats for a possible discussion of why one person should start over the other only to be labeled a "whiner" and a "hater". Have fun arguing with people who just throw out "Cassel sucks, replace him".


And anyone that dares to point out others have made a mistake is a "excuse maker" "defender" the "lovefest"i have with Cassel or my favorite I was once told that since I dare to think that a ball that hits a WR in the hands should be caught that I myself am Matt Cassel. True that wasn't by you and it is a broad brush but it happens to anyone who dares to point out others don't do there job. Or that Cassel has nothing to do with why the defense was so bad the first few weeks. If you people who hate on him can do that then you will get it back. It's that simple. I to bash Cassel at times but I don't get the reaction that you do because I call everyone out. When Bowe goes a game and gets outplayed by a backup te I call him out. I bash Cassel when I feel it's due and defend him when I feel it's due yet despite the fact that I to Bash him I get labled all the above things I have mentioned.

The reason that you are labled a hater and a whiner is because that's what you're doing. A pass might be a little high hits a WR in the hands that WR deflects the ball and it gets picked you don't mention the fact that the ball hit the WR in the hands. It just a bad throw the WR gets a hall pass just so you can put all the blame on the guy that you don't like. That's hating. That's whining about the QB it happens all the time. A pure example of it is the comment I pointed out. Instead of just saying maybe the wrs need time to adjust to a new QB you had to throw in a comment about Cassel sucking. If you mean the wrs need time to adjust to a new QB ok fine I agree but you don't have to throw a dig at Cassel in that point. Yet it's what you did. Can you see the hate there?

[OPLookn]

And anyone that dares to point out others have made a mistake is a "excuse maker" "defender" the "lovefest"i have with Cassel or my favorite I was once told that since I dare to think that a ball that hits a WR in the hands should be caught that I myself am Matt Cassel. True that wasn't by you and it is a broad brush but it happens to anyone who dares to point out others don't do there job. Or that Cassel has nothing to do with why the defense was so bad the first few weeks. If you people who hate on him can do that then you will get it back. It's that simple. I to bash Cassel at times but I don't get the reaction that you do because I call everyone out. When Bowe goes a game and gets outplayed by a backup te I call him out. I bash Cassel when I feel it's due and defend him when I feel it's due yet despite the fact that I to Bash him I get labled all the above things I have mentioned.

The reason that you are labled a hater and a whiner is because that's what you're doing. A pass might be a little high hits a WR in the hands that WR deflects the ball and it gets picked you don't mention the fact that the ball hit the WR in the hands. It just a bad throw the WR gets a hall pass just so you can put all the blame on the guy that you don't like. That's hating. That's whining about the QB it happens all the time. A pure example of it is the comment I pointed out. Instead of just saying maybe the wrs need time to adjust to a new QB you had to throw in a comment about Cassel sucking. If you mean the wrs need time to adjust to a new QB ok fine I agree but you don't have to throw a dig at Cassel in that point. Yet it's what you did. Can you see the hate there?

Looking through some of my past threads I found out lots of instances where I called out other players or frankly called out Cassel haters for hating. I'd go on but frankly I'm tired of trying to defend myself.

Just How Bad Cassel Really Is - Page 2 - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?p=261640#post261640) post #18
Official Petition to bench Matt Cassel is spreading - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?p=266954#post266954) post #3
Rodney Hudson Out for the Season - Sent to IR - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21516) #21

If you want go over to arrowhead pride where I've called out Bowe numerous times for letting two int's that were attributed to Cassel but were clearly Bowe's fault. Any time a ball goes through your hands and nails you in the head it's the receiver's fault.

You single out words just about as much as my wife. lol Seriously, I say he sucks there for I'm a hater. I'm sorry, I thought over throwing a wide open Bowe down the sideline that would have been a TD is sucking. What about floating the ball over the middle to let a receiver get blown up? Sucking. Throwing a ball behind a receiver to make them have to jump back to catch it. Sucking. If saying someone sucks is hating then yep...I'm a hater.

Cassel has made some good plays but when your good to bad plays are about even something has to give. But whatever, I guess I'll "hate" on. There, now I'm done.

[matthewschiefs]

Looking through some of my past threads I found out lots of instances where I called out other players or frankly called out Cassel haters for hating. I'd go on but frankly I'm tired of trying to defend myself.

Just How Bad Cassel Really Is - Page 2 - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?p=261640#post261640) post #18
Official Petition to bench Matt Cassel is spreading - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?p=266954#post266954) post #3
Rodney Hudson Out for the Season - Sent to IR - Kansas City Chiefs Forums (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21516) #21

If you want go over to arrowhead pride where I've called out Bowe numerous times for letting two int's that were attributed to Cassel but were clearly Bowe's fault. Any time a ball goes through your hands and nails you in the head it's the receiver's fault.

You single out words just about as much as my wife. lol Seriously, I say he sucks there for I'm a hater. I'm sorry, I thought over throwing a wide open Bowe down the sideline that would have been a TD is sucking. What about floating the ball over the middle to let a receiver get blown up? Sucking. Throwing a ball behind a receiver to make them have to jump back to catch it. Sucking. If saying someone sucks is hating then yep...I'm a hater.

Cassel has made some good plays but when your good to bad plays are about even something has to give. But whatever, I guess I'll "hate" on. There, now I'm done.

I will apologize for lumping you in with the haters. When you're wrong you're wrong and I was wrong there. But I stand by what I said about the Cassel hate. It's OLD. No one is saying that he's great. But to think that our record would be any different if we had anther record is just a opinion. You can't prove it. And with the way the rest of the team has played this year I don't think it's a reach to say we wouldn't be that much better with a "franchise qb"

[LlamaNinja]

I will apologize for lumping you in with the haters. When you're wrong you're wrong and I was wrong there. But I stand by what I said about the Cassel hate. It's OLD. No one is saying that he's great. But to think that our record would be any different if we had anther record is just a opinion. You can't prove it. And with the way the rest of the team has played this year I don't think it's a reach to say we wouldn't be that much better with a "franchise qb"
A franchise QB provides hope look at RG3, Ponder, Dalton, Weeden, Newton, Tannenhill, and Luck. The teams suck (a few exceptions) overall yet no one is demanding the entire team to be benched or moved around because that QB leads the team. You see what you see with every great time a QB that takes control and leads the team EVEN Orton (who I still dont think is a starting QB) was able to lead the team. I was hopeful thinking Quinn might but it seems he is another passenger for the team. That is why I myself hate on Cassel. I also have hated on Bowe, Berry, and Hillis. Though I seem to be called a negative fan.
I just see problems with the team starting with bad choices with GM, HC, and QB. Every other position is fine or can be fixed with what we already have(hoping Berry comes back 100% by next year).

[doobs_05]

I remember back in the day (okay maybe 4-6 years ago) people were saying Thiggy was the answer and could be a great QB for KC, bringing up numbers to compare him to the elite QBs at the time, good times

[doobs_05]

Also, what happen to My Man Orton? did he get banned? I remember he predicted a 3-13 year and i think he predicted we win 1 game by this time and a bunch of people got real mad at him.

[OPLookn]

Also, what happen to My Man Orton? did he get banned? I remember he predicted a 3-13 year and i think he predicted we win 1 game by this time and a bunch of people got real mad at him.

I was wondering that myself. I figured he'd be on here screaming as loud as anyone could hear. Maybe he'd told so many other people that he's to busy screaming "I told you so!" to people he knows. If that's the case I'm hoping we do something before he gets back here. lol

[LlamaNinja]

I was wondering that myself. I figured he'd be on here screaming as loud as anyone could hear. Maybe he'd told so many other people that he's to busy screaming "I told you so!" to people he knows. If that's the case I'm hoping we do something before he gets back here. lol
He was trying to make people see the truth. I was hopeful and saying No we arent that bad blah blah. BUT then I watched the team week one and the play that did it for me was when Charles ran in open space and was caught from behind, though he didnt do bad it normally is a sign of the year to come like that missed FG.
Last year the play that sealed it for me was the season opener kick being fumbled and then Berry going down.

[reded]

He was trying to make people see the truth. I was hopeful and saying No we arent that bad blah blah. BUT then I watched the team week one and the play that did it for me was when Charles ran in open space and was caught from behind, though he didnt do bad it normally is a sign of the year to come like that missed FG.
Last year the play that sealed it for me was the season opener kick being fumbled and then Berry going down.

Damn, these last two seasons have been short lived for you. I'm dumber than that, I try to hold out hope until the 5th or 6th week. It's getting harder to do with this organization though....

[iratefan]

i just still dont know how we got to this rock bottom place we are now from a 10-6 season just 3 years ago. cycling your entire coaching staff can do a world of hurt in a very short span of time.

ps anyone got crennel's win/loss record as a chiefs HC so far? what is it like 3-9?

[LlamaNinja]

Damn, these last two seasons have been short lived for you. I'm dumber than that, I try to hold out hope until the 5th or 6th week. It's getting harder to do with this organization though....
I always look for that desire and will to win (like we did in week 1 of 10'). I still watch the games though. Arrowhead Addict pointed it out in 2010 for the past 10 or so years we have a winning record IF we win the first game and losing record if we lose the first game.

[LlamaNinja]

i just still dont know how we got to this rock bottom place we are now from a 10-6 season just 3 years ago. cycling your entire coaching staff can do a world of hurt in a very short span of time.

ps anyone got crennel's win/loss record as a chiefs HC so far? what is it like 3-9?
he was 2-1 last season and 1-5 this season so 3-6 but I think we will get around 3 wins this season so add that to it.

[MissingTBone]

Weird..... I set my DVR to record The Biggest Loser and it keeps recording Chiefs games???? What gives?? Lol. Go Chiefs anyway!

[matthewschiefs]

Weird..... I set my DVR to record The Biggest Loser and it keeps recording Chiefs games???? What gives?? Lol. Go Chiefs anyway!

It just saved you the pain of having that "game" if you call it that to watch :lol:

[H-townChiefsFan]

But I stand by what I said about the Cassel hate. It's OLD. No one is saying that he's great. But to think that our record would be any different if we had anther record is just a opinion. You can't prove it. And with the way the rest of the team has played this year I don't think it's a reach to say we wouldn't be that much better with a "franchise qb"

Dude, cmon man! Cassel has not just been bad, but EPIC-ly bad. Your pseudo-defense of him is rediculous. I dont think there is an RGIII or A.Luck in the draft this year, but those teams are soooo far better than they were last year, it is not even debatable what a good QB can do for a team.

Please stop posting until you come to grips with your Cassel Man-fatuation. I am sick of reading your posts. At least you are one of the only defenders of him left.

This team sucks so bad, I wouldnt mind seeing Pioli, Crennel, Dabol and Cassel all gone next year. I think Pioli has had enough time here. His attitude around the clubhouse can only foster hate if the stories floating around are true. I sure as F*** wouldnt want to work for an a**hole like that.

[matthewschiefs]

Dude, cmon man! Cassel has not just been bad, but EPIC-ly bad. Your pseudo-defense of him is rediculous. I dont think there is an RGIII or A.Luck in the draft this year, but those teams are soooo far better than they were last year, it is not even debatable what a good QB can do for a team.

Please stop posting until you come to grips with your Cassel Man-fatuation. I am sick of reading your posts. At least you are one of the only defenders of him left.

This team sucks so bad, I wouldnt mind seeing Pioli, Crennel, Dabol and Cassel all gone next year. I think Pioli has had enough time here. His attitude around the clubhouse can only foster hate if the stories floating around are true. I sure as F*** wouldnt want to work for an a**hole like that.


This is the very hate I was talking about You ignore all the failings of the other players and call out a single player. It's not a man-fatuation just because I don't single out 1 player like you do. It's being real. You keep hating I will stay in the real world where the failings of the others are not blamed on a single player. If you read ALL My post you see I have said Cassel is part of the problem but all you see is that I dare to call out others. Silly me thinking the others that have failed have affected the team. You keep hating

[H-townChiefsFan]

This is the very hate I was talking about You ignore all the failings of the other players and call out a single player. It's not a man-fatuation just because I don't single out 1 player like you do. It's being real. You keep hating I will stay in the real world where the failings of the others are not blamed on a single player. If you read ALL My post you see I have said Cassel is part of the problem but all you see is that I dare to call out others. Silly me thinking the others that have failed have affected the team. You keep hating

You can talk about this hate all you want, but it is real Matt. Look at the stats. I agree the D has been horrible too, but there is no calling out of other players because the QB is the most important player on the field. The Oline has been average at best and the RBs have actually been decent. You cant say for the WRs cause the QB throwing the ball has been so GOD-AWFUL!

[LlamaNinja]

This is the very hate I was talking about You ignore all the failings of the other players and call out a single player. It's not a man-fatuation just because I don't single out 1 player like you do. It's being real. You keep hating I will stay in the real world where the failings of the others are not blamed on a single player. If you read ALL My post you see I have said Cassel is part of the problem but all you see is that I dare to call out others. Silly me thinking the others that have failed have affected the team. You keep hating
2009:
EVERYONE sucked
2010:
Offense was good, Cassel was average(I say that because while he had a good season he had a horrible post season), our def was playoff ready
2011:
Offense was injured, Cassel was bad, Def was still good (even without Berry, who I am beginning to question)
2012:
Offense is average, Cassel is sucking, Def is sucking
While we have had bad games and bad moments one thing has always sucked and that is our QB. Our Def improved up until this year, so did the Off. Special teams I would put at average having both good and bad games. Overall we suck but Cassel has always sucked.

[#58ChiefsFan]

This is the very hate I was talking about You ignore all the failings of the other players and call out a single player. It's not a man-fatuation just because I don't single out 1 player like you do. It's being real. You keep hating I will stay in the real world where the failings of the others are not blamed on a single player. If you read ALL My post you see I have said Cassel is part of the problem but all you see is that I dare to call out others. Silly me thinking the others that have failed have affected the team. You keep hating

Matthew, man I have to give you credit for the amount of energy you expend on this subject. You have a valid argument and haven't just said effit.

[matthewschiefs]

You can talk about this hate all you want, but it is real Matt. Look at the stats. I agree the D has been horrible too, but there is no calling out of other players because the QB is the most important player on the field. The Oline has been average at best and the RBs have actually been decent. You cant say for the WRs cause the QB throwing the ball has been so GOD-AWFUL!

Strange our Top WR gets outdone by the Backup Te at times like sunday. What was it a Elite qb that came in just to throw it to him. Mccluster out did out top wr twice this season strange they can catch the ball when our top Wr can't does some Great qb suddenly come in and throw them the ball. The O line has also had issues that affects the QB play. I know they suck because cassel made them suck. No matter how much you want to put this on Matt Cassel It's a TEAM failure Cassel is a big part of it. But so is everyone else on the team and the coaching staff. But those around have failed more then Cassel at times. Like when the ball hits our guys in the hands and still gets picked. You can claim it's being real all you want but to constantly point out 1 guys failure and give the WRs, Tes a hall pass because you don't like the qb is hating. That's just how I see it.

[#58ChiefsFan]

but there is no calling out of other players because the QB is the most important player on the field.

Are you from the school of thought an above average/great QB fixes a lot of the other issues or do you think we'll still stuck in suckdom with a good QB?

[matthewschiefs]

2009:
EVERYONE sucked
2010:
Offense was good, Cassel was average(I say that because while he had a good season he had a horrible post season), our def was playoff ready
2011:
Offense was injured, Cassel was bad, Def was still good (even without Berry, who I am beginning to question)
2012:
Offense is average, Cassel is sucking, Def is sucking
While we have had bad games and bad moments one thing has always sucked and that is our QB. Our Def improved up until this year, so did the Off. Special teams I would put at average having both good and bad games. Overall we suck but Cassel has always sucked.


So again tell me whats the excuse for 3 other qbs having the same issues? I'm sure Cassel made them suck to

[H-townChiefsFan]

Are you from the school of thought an above average/great QB fixes a lot of the other issues or do you think we'll still stuck in suckdom with a good QB?

I think a above average QB would make us an 8-8/9-7 team. A great QB I really belive elevates the play of those around them and we would be a 10-6 team.

Coaching also has alot to do with it though. I dont have an answer for that. I at first thought Haley was a good hire and did not think the promotion of Crennel was a bad idea. I was wrong on both accounts it would seem::whipping1:

[matthewschiefs]

Matthew, man I have to give you credit for the amount of energy you expend on this subject. You have a valid argument and haven't just said effit.

It blows my mind how some go so far to hate a player on this team. I'm about ready to say effit. Some just want to hate

[H-townChiefsFan]

Strange our Top WR gets outdone by the Backup Te at times like sunday. What was it a Elite qb that came in just to throw it to him. Mccluster out did out top wr twice this season strange they can catch the ball when our top Wr can't does some Great qb suddenly come in and throw them the ball. The O line has also had issues that affects the QB play. I know they suck because cassel made them suck. No matter how much you want to put this on Matt Cassel It's a TEAM failure Cassel is a big part of it. But so is everyone else on the team and the coaching staff. But those around have failed more then Cassel at times. Like when the ball hits our guys in the hands and still gets picked. You can claim it's being real all you want but to constantly point out 1 guys failure and give the WRs, Tes a hall pass because you don't like the qb is hating. That's just how I see it.

Thats fine and I respect your opinion, but I dont think there is a single person on this board that thinks this is all Cassels fault.
my POV for pos by pos:
QB - F (both Cassel and Quinn)
WR - C (Baldwin has not quite shown 1st rd talent and Bowe is what he has been for 3 years now, just outside of elite) Breston has been a disappointment
RB - B+ (for what they have done considering the pass game, I am impressed with Charles' ability to come back from a devastating injury. Droughn has also been a nice surprise. Hillis has sucked donkey balls. McFluster is ok, but seriously limited
TE - F (what was thought to be a strong point is now a major weakness. Boss is hurt and Moeaki is nowhere even close to pre-injury form. They cant block and they cant get open. Moeaki is closer to being a bust than a star)
O-line - C (it seems like Charles does not have the gaping holes he has had in the past and the QB has only had enough time maybe 50-60% of the time
D-line - D (no pressure on QB except LBs...which I understand is part of the 3-4 but seriously...high draft picks have not panned out. RBs continue to gain at least 3 yeards on almost every carry)
Outside LB - B+ (Hali is good, but not as great as last year, Houston is a BEAST!)
Inside LB - C+ (DJ is closer to his 2010 douchiness than his 2011 breakout year, Belcher is overmatched at times)
CB - C+ (Ive never seen Flowers get torched as much as he has this year, Route is a poor mans Brandon Carr at best)
S - D (Eric Berry is a shadow of his 2010 self and K Lewis has not played as well as he had last year)

Special teams/K - B- (Colquitt is awesome and Succop has been good, but coverage sucks and there has been nothing in the return game. I was really excited when McCluster and Arenas were tearing it up at the beginning, but they have both faded in the past year)

[Ryfo18]

Strange our Top WR gets outdone by the Backup Te at times like sunday. What was it a Elite qb that came in just to throw it to him.


This is seriously the worst argument you've made. Brady Quinn cannot throw the ball down the field, and he's inaccurate at close range.

I went back and watched every pass play the Chiefs called (it was hard to watch). He threw high and behind Bowe on two called slant plays. Bowe had one catch on the sideline where he did a nice job of keeping his feet in on a 6 yard out. He made Quinn look good b/c it too was a poorly thrown ball 6 yards down the field.

Why did Maneri outproduce Bowe? Because Maneri was left wide open 5 yards down the field. That's also why McCluster had 6 catches...DINK & DUNK. If Quinn could have delivered the ball better down the field, Bowe would have easily had a better day.


So again tell me whats the excuse for 3 other qbs having the same issues? I'm sure Cassel made them suck to

Dude, the other 3 QBs suck too. Palko, Quinn, and Orton...Name a team these guys would start on other than the Chiefs. Orton, who most people thought would have been our best option had we kept him, is now a backup on the Dallas Cowboys. Are you that delusional that you actually think the other QBs are actually good? Quinn has been in the league for 5 years now and has never been more than a mediocre backup QB.

If that's your defense (that 3 other backup QBs had the same issues), there's no convincing you otherwise that the QB position is the biggest hole on this team.

[LlamaNinja]

So again tell me whats the excuse for 3 other qbs having the same issues? I'm sure Cassel made them suck to
I agree 100% with Cassel being with those QB's he should be out of the NFL or a backup.

[OPLookn]

So again tell me whats the excuse for 3 other qbs having the same issues? I'm sure Cassel made them suck to

Croyle couldn't survive a quarter was one excuse. lol That guy...sigh.

[Bike]

Since Alex Tanney is IR, start Stanzi vs. faders.

[doobs_05]

The only way Cassel leads the team to super bowl is if we have a Top 5 Defense (Dilfer with Ravens, Johnson? dude who was QB for bucs, and you could make a case for Rapistburger)

[Lord-Chiefy]

Coaching is half the issue ..Cassell is 1/4 and the rest of the team is the other. 1/4.
ThIs is my opinion. So if we get great coach and great qb.. we can work on the last 1/4% and be instantly very very good team.


But none of this will ever happen with pioli at helm.

[Lord-Chiefy]

Also Bowes route running us over rated. His size mire times gets him completion then his actual route running.

[matthewschiefs]

Coaching is half the issue ..Cassell is 1/4 and the rest of the team is the other. 1/4.
ThIs is my opinion. So if we get great coach and great qb.. we can work on the last 1/4% and be instantly very very good team.


But none of this will ever happen with pioli at helm.


I agree with this.

If we just get that franchise qb we will still not be a good team but if we get a new head coach and new Franchise Qb then we are talking MUCH better. The only other thing I think we HAVE to have to be a really good team is a CB. If we get those 3 I like our chances to beat anyone

[LlamaNinja]

I agree with this.

If we just get that franchise qb we will still not be a good team but if we get a new head coach and new Franchise Qb then we are talking MUCH better. The only other thing I think we HAVE to have to be a really good team is a CB. If we get those 3 I like our chances to beat anyone
Normally though when you finish last in the league and get a new QB... the HC is out of work as well. I just hope that cleaning house with GM, HC, and QB will provide this team the spark it so desperately needs. We and the Jags look like crap this year but I think it can be different next year!

[Tom A Hawk]

It seems to me the Chiefs are in a spot where it's very unlikely that we'll be able to salvage the season. If that's the case, is it better to just let the season go, and go for a high ranking draft spot, or fight and scrap for every win we can get, and settle for where a 7-9, 8-8 or 6-10 draft position will put us?

If we go through a coaching/management change (which after the Bucs game is very likely), I'd rather play our backups and rookies and see what we've got on the benches, and then focus on getting a franchise QB. It would suck having to approach a game with a mindset of losing, though.

This team cannot go through another season with this staff. They cannot coach, motivate or develop players.

Winning cures some ails...I never root for my team to lose. That is for losers

[Tom A Hawk]

Since Alex Tanney is IR, start Stanzi vs. faders.

why? Stanzi? The guy until Cassel got hurt never dressed out? The guy who couldn't beat Tyler Palko to be the back up. The guy who has already proved that each time he gets in a game, he poops his pants?
That guy?

[Bike]

why? Stanzi? The guy until Cassel got hurt never dressed out? The guy who couldn't beat Tyler Palko to be the back up. The guy who has already proved that each time he gets in a game, he poops his pants?
That guy?
Why not? Whats the worse that can happen - we lose another game?

[Seek]

Why not? Whats the worse that can happen - we lose another game?

you lose more of your fans who paid their hard earned money to watch that crap.

[LlamaNinja]

you lose more of your fans who paid their hard earned money to watch that crap.
They do have pretty low attendance compared to other places around 88-90% for the season. This is compared to several teams that have 100%+ occupancy. At the start of the season I paid 150 for my tickets with the lowest price being 45. For the colts game I found EVEN better seats for 110 and lowest price being 10 dollars. I am pretty sure most of those guys probably wont buy tickets again if they are selling them for prices like that.

[#58ChiefsFan]

They do have pretty low attendance compared to other places around 88-90% for the season. This is compared to several teams that have 100%+ occupancy. At the start of the season I paid 150 for my tickets with the lowest price being 45. For the colts game I found EVEN better seats for 110 and lowest price being 10 dollars. I am pretty sure most of those guys probably wont buy tickets again if they are selling them for prices like that.

I have upper level tickets that are worthless on ticket exchange with their minimum pricing, on eBay you can't even get your money back. For people like me that are out of state it makes it almost impossible to convince me I should renew when I can not go to all the games.

[OPLookn]

I have upper level tickets that are worthless on ticket exchange with their minimum pricing, on eBay you can't even get your money back. For people like me that are out of state it makes it almost impossible to convince me I should renew when I can not go to all the games.

The problem becomes that as it gets colder unless a team is doing well about half of the fans don't want to go. When you factor in everything that's made people mad this year they'll be lucky if some of the games aren't blacked out this year.

I don't think the Chiefs will really ever have a hard time selling tickets. There's always someone new every year that can afford tickets for a year and says what the heck, they might be good this year. Unfortunately the year I did that they went 4-12 in 2009. I couldn't go the last game against the Bengals and asked...at least a few dozen people. No one wanted them, you know it's bad when you can't even GIVE your tickets away to someone.

[LlamaNinja]

The problem becomes that as it gets colder unless a team is doing well about half of the fans don't want to go. When you factor in everything that's made people mad this year they'll be lucky if some of the games aren't blacked out this year.

I don't think the Chiefs will really ever have a hard time selling tickets. There's always someone new every year that can afford tickets for a year and says what the heck, they might be good this year. Unfortunately the year I did that they went 4-12 in 2009. I couldn't go the last game against the Bengals and asked...at least a few dozen people. No one wanted them, you know it's bad when you can't even GIVE your tickets away to someone.
If they draft a QB I am willing to split the tickets with someone... hehe

[dl89]

The Chiefs will inevitably win enough games this year to screw up our chances at a high enough draft position to ensure getting Barkley or Geno. It's just a prediction, but go ahead and look at the schedule- there's too many winnable games, and this team has had too many bad breaks for a few not to fall their way later in the season. Time to start debating whether or not Pioli will move up in the draft to get Geno, and how.

[N TX Dave]

Where can we go from 1-5 no 1-6 then 1-7, 1-8 all the way to to 1-15!
As far as Pioli moving up and taking a QB, about as much as a snowball in he11.

[Chiefster]

Where do we go from here?...

Front runner status.

[KCMASS]

The Chiefs will inevitably win enough games this year to screw up our chances at a high enough draft position to ensure getting Barkley or Geno. It's just a prediction, but go ahead and look at the schedule- there's too many winnable games, and this team has had too many bad breaks for a few not to fall their way later in the season. Time to start debating whether or not Pioli will move up in the draft to get Geno, and how.

I really hope this won't be the case. Just stick a fork is us & let's get the draft pick. Pioli hasn't drafted well IMHO. Eric Berry, TJ all high picks are semi-busts! Yes...I said it! I don't think Eric Berry is all that.

[KCraised]

It seems to me the Chiefs are in a spot where it's very unlikely that we'll be able to salvage the season. If that's the case, is it better to just let the season go, and go for a high ranking draft spot, or fight and scrap for every win we can get, and settle for where a 7-9, 8-8 or 6-10 draft position will put us?

If we go through a coaching/management change (which after the Bucs game is very likely), I'd rather play our backups and rookies and see what we've got on the benches, and then focus on getting a franchise QB. It would suck having to approach a game with a mindset of losing, though.
This is the logical idea. This season is done. Mathmatically, no. But this team can't win a game, yet alone a division. So,mix some backups in throughout the games and get some evaluations of whats on the bench and how they perform in a game scenario. That's the only positive I can really see from this season. At least you can use the ton of games left, to find out what you have on the bench.

[wadman]

go get tyler thigpen back, at least he could move the chains

[AkChief49]

go get tyler thigpen back, at least he could move the chains
Looking at Sundays game, it does not seem that moving the chains is the problem.

it's getting no points off of an interception on their side of the field to start the game.

We throw an interception to them -they do get more points

It's the fumble at our 19 yard line to start the 3rd quarter-they score-to the D's credit they held them to a field goal.

we move the ball down the field from our 20 to their 12 and, field goal again

we move the ball from our 46 to their 12 again, get sacked to the 24 and boot another FG.

we move the ball from our 22 to their 34-FG again

we move the ball from our 20 to their 24-intercepted

we get another garbage TD with little over 2 minutes left.

we seem to be able to move the ball when we can hold onto it.

[OPLookn]

go get tyler thigpen back, at least he could move the chains

He also has more career turnovers. Cassel has a career INT percentage of 2.8, Tyler "getting thiggy with it" Thigpen's is 3.6.

[LlamaNinja]

He also has more career turnovers. Cassel has a career INT percentage of 2.8, Tyler "getting thiggy with it" Thigpen's is 3.6.
I think if Cassel really puts his mind to it he can beat that!