HC Candidate -- Feedback Wanted

[brdempsey69]

People have said "bring back Marty or Cowher" and made numerous points about this, many well taken.

I offer a 3rd alternative, that if you stop and think about, falls right into line with the requests that have been made for Marty and Cowher and here it is:

Look up north to GB. Who is currently on the GB coaching staff that played under Cowher for many years and possesses Cowher's very same mentality??

Drum roll please.....

KEVIN GREENE

Think that is farfetched? Look down to Miami and how the Dolphins are getting things moving in the right direction under Joe Philbin.

All you can do is give a guy a chance. The same chance that Marty and Cowher got to be HC's.

I really believe that Kevin Greene could very well be the next iteration of Marty, Cowher.

He would not tolerate the loser's mentality that has plagued the Chiefs since 2007.

[MyManHali]

It's not a terrible idea, but I think what needs to be on our future coaching resume is someone who has had a history of drafting and developing franchise qb's.

[brdempsey69]

It's not a terrible idea, but I think what needs to be on our future coaching resume is someone who has had a history of drafting and developing franchise qb's.

I'm open to suggestions, but it seems like you are referring more to a Dick Vermeil type guy, than a Marty/Cowher guy -- nothing wrong with that.

[MyManHali]

I'm open to suggestions, but it seems like you are referring more to a Dick Vermeil type guy, than a Marty/Cowher guy -- nothing wrong with that.



Cowher drafted Berger, Cowher would actually be my first choice for HC.

[brdempsey69]

Cowher drafted Berger, Cowher would actually be my first choice for HC.

Keep in mind that no HC who has won a SB has gone to another team and won a SB with another team.

Another thing to consider -- who is GB's QB right now? That's right, Aaron Rodgers.

That would lead one to believe that Greene understands the importance of having a quality QB to lead his team.

[Chief Buck Rogers]

I like it.

However comma I think we'd need to put into his contract that he's not allowed to have a mullet until after we win a playoff game.

[MyManHali]

Well I want Andy Reid as OC

[brdempsey69]

Well I want Andy Reid as OC

Good point. Given the players, he could make an Offense prolific & he hasn't been a bad HC in Philthydelphia -- it's just that things have gotten stale there after 13+ years.

[MissingTBone]

Andy Reid will be a HC somewhere if he wants to be. I can't see him going back to OC. If he did it would prob turn out like Weiss and only stay one year. I wouldn't mind starting KG as a coordinator, but not sure about HC. Not that he'll come back and coach but I would like Brian Billick, as my first pick of who's currently available. He did great things in MN, and win a SB in Baltimore. Bill Polian as GM, and Billick as HC, sounds like a winning combo to me!!

[jap1]

I like the idea of KG as a DCoordinator. Imagine what he could do for Houston and the LBs we have already! Plus he would probably run a 3-4, which is what we already have in place, which means no complete overhaul.

I honestly dont know who I want for HC. Definitely someone who at the least has a history developing QBs. I most likely want an offensive minded HC, and a strong fiery D coordinator (IIRC, Greene was a fiery player, I dont imagine him being any different as a coach).

I dont like Bill Polian as GM. I feel like he was great at building the Colts, but sucked at keeping them competitive. He let the team get old and had no depth to come in and fill in for the players that left/got hurt. That, and he continuously failed to put any talent behind Manning, as was evident last year.

[MissingTBone]

I disagree, he had lots of BIG names and contracts on those colts teams. And look what he did with the Bills back in the day. I think he is a good GM, and has the knowledge to turn this team around. He built those competitive colts teams from basically nothing. To me he is an available person who has done it before, is proven, and would do a million times better than the current situation. Good talent evaluator too, had plenty of bigger names on D as well as O. But the bottom line will be Hunt coming off the money it takes to be a competitive football team every year. You can't stay at the bottom at spending and expect a playoff team.

[brdempsey69]

Good points jap1 and missingtbone. The question mark regarding KG is HC coaching experience, of course. Probably never had any at any level.

I also say no to Polian. There may be a GM candidate up there in GB that's worked under current GM Ted Thompson and Thompson's track record has been pretty good.

[MyManHali]

I'm all for change, anything but this bush league staff.

[AussieChiefsFan]

Seems decent. Good coaches do come out of green bay

[drstandley31]

Keep in mind that no HC who has won a SB has gone to another team and won a SB with another team.

Another thing to consider -- who is GB's QB right now? That's right, Aaron Rodgers.

That would lead one to believe that Greene understands the importance of having a quality QB to lead his team.
I thought Vermile did that right? Philly and St. Louis? Or maybe I'm just too deep into the bourbon.

[brdempsey69]

I thought Vermile did that right? Philly and St. Louis? Or maybe I'm just too deep into the bourbon.

Not quite. Vermeil went to the SB with Philly and lost. He went back with the Rams and won.

[Ryfo18]

Chip Kelly paired w/ 1st overall pick Geno Smith would be music to my ears.

[brdempsey69]

Chip Kelly paired w/ 1st overall pick Geno Smith would be music to my ears.

I'd be OK with that. Must have new GM in place as well. Nobody outside the KC circle is going to want to work for Pioli and nobody can blame them. He's torpedoed and sunken his own ship.

[Lord-Chiefy]

Cowher. Chucky then Marty.

[AkChief49]

I disagree, he had lots of BIG names and contracts on those colts teams. And look what he did with the Bills back in the day. I think he is a good GM, and has the knowledge to turn this team around. He built those competitive colts teams from basically nothing. To me he is an available person who has done it before, is proven, and would do a million times better than the current situation. Good talent evaluator too, had plenty of bigger names on D as well as O. But the bottom line will be Hunt coming off the money it takes to be a competitive football team every year. You can't stay at the bottom at spending and expect a playoff team.
So long as he leaves his kid behind. Otherwise, no thanks.

[matthewschiefs]

I would rather have a PROVEN NFL head coach before a 1st time coach or a college coach myself

[brdempsey69]

I would rather have a PROVEN NFL head coach before a 1st time coach or a college coach myself

It could be hit or miss either way. The proven coaches aren't coming to KC as long as Pioli is there.

Many 1st time coaches have had success -- the Chiefs very 1st HC, Hank Stram is one of them.

Now, if one were to prefer a 1st time HC with experience in the NFL coaching ranks as opposed to a college coach that never coached in the NFL, that's quite understandable.

[Ryfo18]

I would rather have a PROVEN NFL head coach before a 1st time coach or a college coach myself

But look at a guy like Harbaugh vs Shanahan.

I read this great book that attempts to throw out solutions to fixing failed NFL franchises: Game Plan: A Radical Approach to Decision Making in the National Football League: Frank DuPont: Amazon.com: Kindle Store@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415rdN5QybL.@@AMEPARAM@@415rdN5QybL (http://www.amazon.com/Game-Plan-Approach-Decision-ebook/dp/B007SBHUHA)

One thing it talked about was the age of a coach. It had a really nice graph that basically said that humans start to lose mental abilities as they age, and that 42-51 is about the best age for a head coach. After that, there is a significant decline. He has some great examples of coaches that won Super Bowls and really were an embarassment as they got older including Tom Landry, Ditka, Gibbs, and Coryell. Take a look at Mike Shanahan, he was around 45 when he won a couple of Super Bowls. He hasn't had a winning record in 2+ season with the Redskins.

Just food for thought for everyone when thinking of new coaches. The average age of Super Bowl winning coaches is 48.6 years old.

[matthewschiefs]

But look at a guy like Harbaugh vs Shanahan.

I read this great book that attempts to throw out solutions to fixing failed NFL franchises: Game Plan: A Radical Approach to Decision Making in the National Football League: Frank DuPont: Amazon.com: Kindle Store (http://www.amazon.com/Game-Plan-Approach-Decision-ebook/dp/B007SBHUHA)

One thing it talked about was the age of a coach. It had a really nice graph that basically said that humans start to lose mental abilities as they age, and that 42-51 is about the best age for a head coach. After that, there is a significant decline. He has some great examples of coaches that won Super Bowls and really were an embarassment as they got older including Tom Landry, Ditka, Gibbs, and Coryell. Take a look at Mike Shanahan, he was around 45 when he won a couple of Super Bowls. He hasn't had a winning record in 2+ season with the Redskins.

Just food for thought for everyone when thinking of new coaches. The average age of Super Bowl winning coaches is 48.6 years old.

That's a very interesting point. And I do agree that one can get to old to be a good head coach. I said at the time that age was a bad thing with Romeo. Even if he had been good he wouldn't have been there for the long haul. But I never knew the age of super bowl winning coaches stat

[brdempsey69]

But look at a guy like Harbaugh vs Shanahan.

I read this great book that attempts to throw out solutions to fixing failed NFL franchises:
One thing it talked about was the age of a coach. It had a really nice graph that basically said that humans start to lose mental abilities as they age, and that 42-51 is about the best age for a head coach. After that, there is a significant decline. He has some great examples of coaches that won Super Bowls and really were an embarassment as they got older including Tom Landry, Ditka, Gibbs, and Coryell. Take a look at Mike Shanahan, he was around 45 when he won a couple of Super Bowls. He hasn't had a winning record in 2+ season with the Redskins.

Just food for thought for everyone when thinking of new coaches. The average age of Super Bowl winning coaches is 48.6 years old.

Fascinating. At least it didn't hamper Dick Vermeil's ability to put together a prolific Offense for the Chiefs like I was hoping he would when they hired him in 2001. And he was 63, when the Rams won the SB in 1999, so I guess he would be the exception.

[matthewschiefs]

Fascinating. At least it didn't hamper Dick Vermeil's ability to put together a prolific Offense for the Chiefs like I was hoping he would when they hired him in 2001. And he was 63, when the Rams won the SB in 1999, so I guess he would be the exception.

There are always exceptions to the rules.

Jim Harbaugh would be one for College coaches in the NFL. There are alot more that haven't worked out then the Jim Harbaughs of the world like Steve Spurrier, Nick Sabin, Bobby Patrino to name a few

[Ryfo18]

Fascinating. At least it didn't hamper Dick Vermeil's ability to put together a prolific Offense for the Chiefs like I was hoping he would when they hired him in 2001. And he was 63, when the Rams won the SB in 1999, so I guess he would be the exception.

Sure there are a lot of exceptions. I'm definitely not saying this is the only way to find an excellent head coach, just sharing the info. And yes, Matt is correct too, a lot of college coaches have failed at the NFL level.

Coughlin is another example. He's 66 and certainly an exception to the rule. I worry about a guy like Cowher coming in though. I know that sounds crazy, but he hasn't coached in 5 years. The game evolves more and more each year, and the guys that can innovate (Belichick) continue to have success.

I look at a guy like Dave Wannstedt in Buffalo. Been running the same defense for years. It was good for a while, and now he just gets trounced every game. Then you have Greg Knapp in Oakland. He loves the zone blocking scheme, but McFadden doesn't succeed in it at all. Coaches that can't adjust their playbook and know how to utilize their best players are going to continue to be failures.

[MyManHali]

I want Cowher or Mike Mccoy as coach. Polian and Cowher like eachother, I certainly would not mind that combination.

I want Andy Reid as our OC.

I also wouldn't mind a younger coach to help grow with this team, Jay Gruden comes to mind.

[Ryfo18]

And to add to my above post, I see a guy like Chip Kelly as an innovator. Just look at how Oregon does things. He would obviously need the support of a solid defensive coordinator, but I really think he could have success at this level.

[MyManHali]

And to add to my above post, I see a guy like Chip Kelly as an innovator. Just look at how Oregon does things. He would obviously need the support of a solid defensive coordinator, but I really think he could have success at this level.


My buddy just graduated from the University of Oregon and says there is no way Chip would leave UO, but you never know, right ryfo?

[brdempsey69]

I'd gladly welcome Cowher. At least he's put together a competitive team and the 3-4 defense is still in vogue.

And unlike Pioli, he's not a p-u-s-s-y about drafting O-Lineman in round 1 if they are needed. His 1st draft pick as HC was Tackle Leon Searcy of Miami in 1992.

[nigeriannightmare]

Sean Peyton is a free agent at the end of the year......

[matthewschiefs]

Sean Peyton is a free agent at the end of the year......

Would be nice but I think he will still be with the Saints. But I would love the pick up myself

[nigeriannightmare]

Would be nice but I think he will still be with the Saints. But I would love the pick up myself

Yeah I've read he's already linked to Dallas.....don't the saints have a huge bonus to drew brews that they could waive him similar to Peyton manning in indy.....how sweet would that be Sean and drew.

A man can dream right.

[MyManHali]

Sean Peyton is a free agent at the end of the year......




Oh yes.....


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltfak5Ldhd1qmfoslo1_500.gif

[brdempsey69]

Would love to have Sean Peyton, but the GM problem needs to be fixed first.

I can't see Peyton being able to co-exist with Pioli. Or any other self-respecting coach for that matter.

[LlamaNinja]

Would love to have Sean Peyton, but the GM problem needs to be fixed first.

I can't see Peyton being able to co-exist with Pioli. Or any other self-respecting coach for that matter.
We have the pieces UNLIKE Dallas we just need someone to fix them. I think if we get a good GM we can land S. Peyton. If we get some random guy though I dont think we will do much, we NEED those big name guys.

[brdempsey69]

We have the pieces UNLIKE Dallas we just need someone to fix them. I think if we get a good GM we can land S. Peyton. If we get some random guy though I dont think we will do much, we NEED those big name guys.


I'm all for that & I see it the same you do. The Chief ( pun intended ) problems are in the front office & coaching staff. Pioli runs the front office like a Nazi concentration camp and the coaching staff consists of Pioli's "hail fuhrer" type guys.

[MyManHali]

We have the pieces UNLIKE Dallas we just need someone to fix them. I think if we get a good GM we can land S. Peyton. If we get some random guy though I dont think we will do much, we NEED those big name guys.


We have no qb, we have no 2nd cb, no cb/lb depth whatsoever, DL looks bad and we need new management.

We have a lot of holes to fill.

[brdempsey69]

We have no qb, we have no 2nd cb, no cb/lb depth whatsoever, DL looks bad and we need new management.

We have a lot of holes to fill.


That's the part that stands out glaringly and here is what is wrong:

1) Drafting 4-3 lineman who played the 4-3 in college ( except Dorsey in 2008 as Chiefs played 4-3 at that time ) in the 1st round and trying to fit them into a 3-4 defense. This is totally ludicrous to spend top draft picks on square pegs and trying to fit them into round holes. Not only is it a waste of a top draft pick, but they pass on players that would stand a better chance at making an impact right away at other positions on the team. Why not shop for D-Lineman in rounds 2 - 7 that have played in the 3-4 in college or get FA D-Lineman that have NFL experience playing in the 3-4? Common sense, I would think.

2) The docile acceptance by too many Chiefs fans to the following line --- "it's the 3-4 D-Lineman's job to occupy blockers and they aren't supposed to get tackles, sacks, and QB pressures". I got news for those that are buying into this --- THAT'S PURE BULLSH!T !! You are buying into Scott Pioli's loser-type mentality !!

People's Exhibit A:
J.J. Watt down in Houston and his other linemates.
Justin Smith in SF and his linemates.
Shaun Smith in KC in 2010 -- he was consistently beating blockers and tackling opposing runners. No Chiefs D-Lineman has played as well as Smith did in 2010 since they switched to the 3-4.

People's Exhibit B:
The 1990 Chiefs playing 3-4 with Neil Smith, Dan Saleaumua, and Bill Maas manning the D-Line spots. The Chiefs decked opposing QB's 60 times that year with Derrick Thomas getting 20 of those. Do the math -- that means that 40 sacks came from other members of the defense and the D-Line accounted for most of those. Smith, Saleaumua, Maas, and Leonard Griffin were consistently tackling opposing RB's, pressuring opposing QB's, and getting timely QB sacks throughout the 1990 season.

This clearly illustrates the loser-type mentality that Scott Pioli has brought to KC, and yet some fans want to retain him as GM? WAKE UP & RETHINK !! Stop buying into Pioli's loser-type mentality and philosophies & rightfully reject them.

[jap1]

What are everyone's thoughts on Jason Garrett (Im predicting Jerry Jones is going to fire him when they fail to make the playoffs this year) for OC or maybe their DC Ryan (Cant remember his first name).

Im not too fond of what Garrett has done in Cowgirl land. But he seemed to run a decent offense when he was OC, and was in high demand as a HC because of it.

Thoughts?

[brdempsey69]

What are everyone's thoughts on Jason Garrett (Im predicting Jerry Jones is going to fire him when they fail to make the playoffs this year) for OC or maybe their DC Ryan (Cant remember his first name).

Im not too fond of what Garrett has done in Cowgirl land. But he seemed to run a decent offense when he was OC, and was in high demand as a HC because of it.

Thoughts?

Regarding Garrett, as an OC, yes. As a HC, no.

Ryan's first name is Rob. Doesn't seem like HC material like his brother Rex.

Kind of sucks that we are only 1/2 way through the season and discussing HC candidates for 2013, BUT................

[MyManHali]

That's the part that stands out glaringly and here is what is wrong:

1) Drafting 4-3 lineman who played the 4-3 in college ( except Dorsey in 2008 as Chiefs played 4-3 at that time ) in the 1st round and trying to fit them into a 3-4 defense. This is totally ludicrous to spend top draft picks on square pegs and trying to fit them into round holes. Not only is it a waste of a top draft pick, but they pass on players that would stand a better chance at making an impact right away at other positions on the team. Why not shop for D-Lineman in rounds 2 - 7 that have played in the 3-4 in college or get FA D-Lineman that have NFL experience playing in the 3-4? Common sense, I would think.

2) The docile acceptance by too many Chiefs fans to the following line --- "it's the 3-4 D-Lineman's job to occupy blockers and they aren't supposed to get tackles, sacks, and QB pressures". I got news for those that are buying into this --- THAT'S PURE BULLSH!T !! You are buying into Scott Pioli's loser-type mentality !!

People's Exhibit A:
J.J. Watt down in Houston and his other linemates.
Justin Smith in SF and his linemates.
Shaun Smith in KC in 2010 -- he was consistently beating blockers and tackling opposing runners. No Chiefs D-Lineman has played as well as Smith did in 2010 since they switched to the 3-4.

People's Exhibit B:
The 1990 Chiefs playing 3-4 with Neil Smith, Dan Saleaumua, and Bill Maas manning the D-Line spots. The Chiefs decked opposing QB's 60 times that year with Derrick Thomas getting 20 of those. Do the math -- that means that 40 sacks came from other members of the defense and the D-Line accounted for most of those. Smith, Saleaumua, Maas, and Leonard Griffin were consistently tackling opposing RB's, pressuring opposing QB's, and getting timely QB sacks throughout the 1990 season.

This clearly illustrates the loser-type mentality that Scott Pioli has brought to KC, and yet some fans want to retain him as GM? WAKE UP & RETHINK !! Stop buying into Pioli's loser-type mentality and philosophies & rightfully reject them.


You hit the nail right on the head.

I would rather run a 4/3, I think having 4 athletic guys who can get to the qb is better than 3 DL who just take up space and are taught to hold their positions, of course that doesn't apply to guys like JJ Watt, who are true impact 3/4 DE. Hell, if we had a JJ Watt then I would say fine, run 3/4 all you want, but the fact is we don't have anyone like JJ.

[AkChief49]

A bit off topic, but Clark, please take a lesson from Bud Adams-he cares about his team

Bud Adams puts entire Titans organization on notice | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/05/bud-adams-puts-entire-titans-organization-on-notice/)

“At this time, all aspects of the organization will be closely evaluated, including front office, coaches and players over the next seven games. If performance and competitiveness does not improve, I will look at all alternatives to get back to having the Titans become a playoff and championship football team.”

[brdempsey69]

A bit off topic, but Clark, please take a lesson from Bud Adams-he cares about his team

Bud Adams puts entire Titans organization on notice | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/05/bud-adams-puts-entire-titans-organization-on-notice/)

“At this time, all aspects of the organization will be closely evaluated, including front office, coaches and players over the next seven games. If performance and competitiveness does not improve, I will look at all alternatives to get back to having the Titans become a playoff and championship football team.”

We'll find out soon enough if Clark cares as much as Bud Adams does. I remember seeing a video of Clark before the 2008 season and he stated something to the effect that improvement was a must. It sounded like he was issuing an ultimatum. Of course, they had gone 4-12 in 2007 and then in 2008 went 2-14 and it was the end of the Carl/Herm era.

Considering it was his 2nd year as owner & the 3rd year of Carl/Herm and that youth accounted for much of the 2-14 misfortune in 2008, I would have to think Clark has to thinking along the same thought line now.

Considering Pioli has had 4 years and gone through 2 HC's and gotten only two players in his 4 drafts that can even be remotely considered impact players (Succop and Houston), how can Hunt not see that Pioli is like a poor marksmen armed with a shotgun & yet he keeps missing the target, even if it's 3 feet in front of his ugly face?

In other words, does Clark really want Pioli to pick the next HC and blow another top draft pick out his arse?

[N TX Dave]

Sean Peyton is a free agent at the end of the year......

You know I was listening to the Cowboys post game tonight and a several of the local sports people are saying here in Dallas that they think if Peyton is a free agent they think he will become Dallas' new HC because he lives here in Dallas and is a personal friend of Jerry Jones becides Jerry usually gets what he wants just like a CB back he paid $50 million 5 year contract to that used to be with the Chiefs.

[Bike]

It's all up to one person - Clark Hunt. Pioli isn't the only person that trashed this franchise. Hunt is the guy that brought him here. I, too, was behind the Pioli hire. Boy - was I wrong. And so was Clark. Clark should had realized that Pioli wasn't the brains at NE - he just did what Belichick told him to do.

[MyManHali]

It's all up to one person - Clark Hunt. Pioli isn't the only person that trashed this franchise. Hunt is the guy that brought him here. I, too, was behind the Pioli hire. Boy - was I wrong. And so was Clark. Clark should had realized that Pioli wasn't the brains at NE - he just did what Belichick told him to do.


Clark fired Carl in 08, he will fire Pioli in after this year.

[Eydugstr]

It's all up to one person - Clark Hunt. Pioli isn't the only person that trashed this franchise. Hunt is the guy that brought him here. I, too, was behind the Pioli hire. Boy - was I wrong. And so was Clark.

Don't feel alone. I also applauded when Pioli came to town, and over this season and last have really come to regret it. Our O-line situation is a joke, and that falls on Pioli's shoulders, and to some extent, Clark's.

My hope is that Clark loosens up the wallet and finds us a proven GM and HC. It might take a little while but things will fall into place after that.

:chiefs: