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Ryfo18
11-05-2012, 03:41 PM
He sucked this year, but shocked they cut him:

From Sam Mellinger:

"#Chiefs waived Stanford Routt to make room for Shaun Smith, Romeo references "relationship" w/ Routt not progressing. Interesting."

Source: https://twitter.com/mellinger/status/265537308680409088

Miller
11-05-2012, 04:02 PM
Wow! They have a few more to release though

#58ChiefsFan
11-05-2012, 04:08 PM
There's 6 million down the old crapper...

MyManHali
11-05-2012, 04:14 PM
Routt has looked bad this year, and when I say bad I mean abysmal, but I have to say I am a bit shocked that they released him.

Bortnem
11-05-2012, 04:24 PM
Chalk another one up to Pioli...should have kept Carr rather than letting him leave and replacing him with someone that gets cut half way through the year... Well now we need to find a starting QB and CB in the draft.

Ryfo18
11-05-2012, 04:25 PM
Chalk another one up to Pioli...should have kept Carr rather than letting him leave and replacing him with someone that gets cut half way through the year... Well now we need to find a starting QB and CB in the draft.

It wasn't a question of keeping Carr...It just wasn't going to happen b/c of the money involved. The backup plans have been bad though.

Bortnem
11-05-2012, 04:27 PM
It wasn't a question of keeping Carr...It just wasn't going to happen b/c of the money involved. The backup plans have been bad though.

Im not up to date on how much money we are under the cap, but if we add that plus the 6 mil we gave to Routt, dont you think we could have been in the running with the Cowboys for Carr?

Hayvern
11-05-2012, 04:31 PM
Im not up to date on how much money we are under the cap, but if we add that plus the 6 mil we gave to Routt, dont you think we could have been in the running with the Cowboys for Carr?

Carr made it clear after the deal that he was not going to resign with the Chiefs. He wants to go to Dallas and play for his child hood team. It was not a question of money, he wanted out of Kansas City.

You guys just don't seem to get it. These guys are driven by various motivations, not all of them are highest bidder.

reded
11-05-2012, 04:33 PM
I honestly don't see todays transactions affecting the outcome of next Mondays game. Routt sucked but he was better than Daniels. Doesn't really make any sense but what the hell has this year?

MissingTBone
11-05-2012, 04:46 PM
Take that Jags, we're getting that number 1 pick!! Can't wait to use it on a FB......

MyManHali
11-05-2012, 04:49 PM
Carr made it clear after the deal that he was not going to resign with the Chiefs. He wants to go to Dallas and play for his child hood team. It was not a question of money, he wanted out of Kansas City.

You guys just don't seem to get it. These guys are driven by various motivations, not all of them are highest bidder.


No we do get it, we get the fact that players with the exception of Winston don't want to come here, and the players that are here want out.

SIC J
11-05-2012, 04:52 PM
You can say he sucked but so has the defensive play calling! So it's hard to say if he just had a bad year or he played in a crap defense!

doobs_05
11-05-2012, 04:54 PM
So whose going to replace Routt?

MyManHali
11-05-2012, 04:57 PM
So whose going to replace Routt?



Arenas and/or Daniels.

Hayvern
11-05-2012, 04:59 PM
You can say he sucked but so has the defensive play calling! So it's hard to say if he just had a bad year or he played in a crap defense!

Playcalling or no, when teams come in and just pick you apart you have to know that you are not up to speed. Teams that come in here know what Routt has to bring to the field and they are simply tearing him up.

matthewschiefs
11-05-2012, 05:44 PM
Routt was one that was really hurt by the HORRIBLE coaching on this team. He will never be a great player but I don't think he's as bad as he played this year. IMO

MyManHali
11-05-2012, 05:46 PM
One thing I don't understand is why didn't they just put Dorsey on IR, that way they could of kept Routt and added Smith.

I have been hearing that Routt has been trouble in the locker room. I am not sure if that is true or not but it very well could be.

matthewschiefs
11-05-2012, 05:51 PM
One thing I don't understand is why didn't they just put Dorsey on IR, that way they could of kept Routt and added Smith.

I have been hearing that Routt has been trouble in the locker room. I am not sure if that is true or not but it very well could be.

That would explain why they just cut him. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me really. If Dorsey is going to be out a long time might as well just hold him out and not risk anymore injury the seasons already over I just can't think of anything else.

Ryfo18
11-05-2012, 06:07 PM
Im not up to date on how much money we are under the cap, but if we add that plus the 6 mil we gave to Routt, dont you think we could have been in the running with the Cowboys for Carr?

It wasn't really this year, but you have to look to 2013 too. Someone else had the same question earlier in the year and I did some research. Based on Carr's current contract, 33% of the Chiefs cap would have been spent next year on Hali/Flowers/Berry/Carr (4 players).

Hali - $12.25M
Flowers - $7.35M
Berry - $7M
Carr - $14.3M

Total = $40.6M (cap is $120.6M)

Eydugstr
11-05-2012, 07:11 PM
Chalk another one up to Pioli...should have kept Carr rather than letting him leave and replacing him with someone that gets cut half way through the year... Well now we need to find a starting QB and CB in the draft.

Agreed 100%. We had a great chemistry going on with our secondary and Pioli, through inaction managed to fix something that wasn't broken. Imho that whole "We have to lose Bowe or Carr, can't keep both" situation was stoked by Pioli all the way, trying to be cheap.

N TX Dave
11-05-2012, 07:20 PM
Carr made it clear after the deal that he was not going to resign with the Chiefs. He wants to go to Dallas and play for his child hood team. It was not a question of money, he wanted out of Kansas City.

You guys just don't seem to get it. These guys are driven by various motivations, not all of them are highest bidder.

But 5 years at $50 million helped a lot.

SBV_Eagle_Bull
11-05-2012, 07:46 PM
These were some bold moves made today. Its very shocking to see Routt go. He had a few INTs, but every team we played, went after him. They seen the weakest link and so did we.

Congrats to Mr. Gibbs. Hopefully we can win atleast one more. It would be nice to see our CHIEFS win the next 8. But all I want is to beat the broncos. And Geno Smith as our starting QB in 2013

jap1
11-05-2012, 07:55 PM
I agree it is surprising to see him completely cut and not just demoted. I guess it partly had to do with signing Smith. I wouldnt be surprised if there were locker room issues, cut the cancer out all together. The only other thing I can think of is his injury that kept him out last week was more serious, so they cut him.

I thought Arenas did ok last week. It would be great to see him step up into the #2 CB slot and out of the role of only being a nickel back.

Coach
11-05-2012, 10:13 PM
That would explain why they just cut him. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me really. If Dorsey is going to be out a long time might as well just hold him out and not risk anymore injury the seasons already over I just can't think of anything else.

Agreed. Routt getting cut sent a message to the lockerroom. These moves today clearly reflect Pioli applying pressure on Crennel to make some changes.

Changes needed to be made, lets hope they help.

70 chiefsfan70
11-05-2012, 10:47 PM
I honestly don't see todays transactions affecting the outcome of next Mondays game. Routt sucked but he was better than Daniels. Doesn't really make any sense but what the hell has this year?


Sounds like they wanted the best chance of being the first to draft this coming draft year.

matthewschiefs
11-05-2012, 11:48 PM
Agreed. Routt getting cut sent a message to the lockerroom. These moves today clearly reflect Pioli applying pressure on Crennel to make some changes.

Changes needed to be made, lets hope they help.

Something Pioli should have done LONG LONG Ago. Now he's putting the pressure on Crennel hopefully he's feeling the pressure from Clark It's really needed for this team at this point.

rodu
11-06-2012, 12:02 AM
Take that Jags, we're getting that number 1 pick!! Can't wait to use it on a FB......

eff that, I wants a long snapper

nigeriannightmare
11-06-2012, 01:05 AM
Agreed. Routt getting cut sent a message to the lockerroom. These moves today clearly reflect Pioli applying pressure on Crennel to make some changes.

Changes needed to be made, lets hope they help.

Yeah I was reading about Jim cassel? Giants head coach. I think they were 2 and 6 and special teams had been performing poorly so he cut the MVP of the special teams and said he would keep cutting until performance improved....not the same situation those giants lost to Baltimore in the Super Bowl.

But this could light a fire under everyone's butt.

Seek
11-06-2012, 09:59 AM
So whose going to replace Routt?

Next years first round draft pick! Oh that is right. No franchise QB, because there isn't one worth taking the risk of giving the number one over all.

MyManHali
11-06-2012, 02:31 PM
We are taking a qb, or we better. If not all hell will break loose among the KC fan base (as if it has not already)

Bortnem
11-06-2012, 03:58 PM
Next years first round draft pick! Oh that is right. No franchise QB, because there isn't one worth taking the risk of giving the number one over all.

If none of the QB's in college step up I would be fine with taking a stud CB, MLB, or something like that because this years QB class looks like a repeat of the 2006 class. No use wasting a really high pick on a QB that we know/should know will not turn out to be elite. Might as well get some more studs and try to get a serviceable QB to come in for a year and try again next year. Plus, we would then have a veteran to help the learning curve of that young QB we draft in the future.

Only problem with this is I believe the team is capable of being very competitive now, if we just had a decent QB to get our receivers the ball, and more so not turn the ball over so much. I think if we took another year without trying to get a young QB there could be many players that would want out because we are not addressing the most important issue with the team.

Im just worried that our biggest need is at QB and that we will end up taking one because of the pressure to take one and make a change, and this years QB class so far has not been that impressive.

Seek
11-06-2012, 06:26 PM
We are taking a qb, or we better. If not all hell will break loose among the KC fan base (as if it has not already)

So the Chiefs take a QB no matter what regardless of him having a bigger chance to be a bust over Manti Te'o who is up for Heismann as a line backer.

MyManHali
11-06-2012, 07:39 PM
So the Chiefs take a QB no matter what regardless of him having a bigger chance to be a bust over Manti Te'o who is up for Heismann as a line backer.


Look at MOST of the competitive teams in today's NFL, They have a qb that is drafted in the first or second round. Since 2005 only 1 team that has won the super bowl did not draft a qb in the first round and that was the Saints with Drew Brees.

The teams that are successful have taken the qb risk. It's time to lay the foundation. I would much rather try with a qb and fail then not try at all. That being said, I am not watching Matt Cassel throw his 6 yard out routes or 2 yard drag routes anymore, it makes me want to throw up.

brdempsey69
11-06-2012, 08:28 PM
Look at MOST of the competitive teams in today's NFL, They have a qb that is drafted in the first or second round. Since 2005 only 1 team that has won the super bowl did not draft a qb in the first round and that was the Saints with Drew Brees.

The teams that are successful have taken the qb risk. It's time to lay the foundation. I would much rather try with a qb and fail then not try at all. That being said, I am not watching Matt Cassel throw his 6 yard out routes or 2 yard drag routes anymore, it makes me want to throw up.

Right on the money. I've said it before, they should double dip at the QB position in the 2013 draft as it makes all the sense in the world.

Like yourself, I can't stomach watching this team have no capability to throw the ball down the field & make opposing Defenses play honest which can be attributed to three things:

1) Chiefs QB's inability to throw it down the field.
2) Horrible pass protection. Don't let any stat sheets fool you. Opposing defenders are getting too much pressure on Chiefs QB's on a continued basis.
3) Receivers inability to get separation from opposing DB's and stretch the field.

ictfan
11-07-2012, 12:03 AM
He was bad; but we really don't have anyone one better. I can only assume this will make our bad secondary worse.

Chiefster
11-07-2012, 01:56 AM
'Bout time.

AussieChiefsFan
11-07-2012, 06:14 AM
http://cdn.hotstockmarket.com/6/60/6011d350_Ppf6e.gif

nigeriannightmare
11-07-2012, 09:19 AM
Look at MOST of the competitive teams in today's NFL, They have a qb that is drafted in the first or second round. Since 2005 only 1 team that has won the super bowl did not draft a qb in the first round and that was the Saints with Drew Brees.

The teams that are successful have taken the qb risk. It's time to lay the foundation. I would much rather try with a qb and fail then not try at all. That being said, I am not watching Matt Cassel throw his 6 yard out routes or 2 yard drag routes anymore, it makes me want to throw up.

I think he's saying, like most say, none of the qbs coming out this year are sure fire franchise qbs. We missed the boat last year and the year before. I think there are higher rated prospects in 2014.

Seek
11-07-2012, 10:09 AM
Look at MOST of the competitive teams in today's NFL, They have a qb that is drafted in the first or second round. Since 2005 only 1 team that has won the super bowl did not draft a qb in the first round and that was the Saints with Drew Brees.

The teams that are successful have taken the qb risk. It's time to lay the foundation. I would much rather try with a qb and fail then not try at all. That being said, I am not watching Matt Cassel throw his 6 yard out routes or 2 yard drag routes anymore, it makes me want to throw up.

I am not arguing with you. I am just trying to set you your expectations for next year based on the Chiefs history the last 50 years.

I just provided you the excuse for why they won't draft QB with the 1st. They will most likley say they could find equal talent with the second.

brdempsey69
11-07-2012, 01:33 PM
To Seek and MyManHali,

I offer another alternative that may be worthy of consideration & admittedly this is a copy and paste job from a post I made in another thread, but here it is nonetheless:

"The only other alternative that I can think of is maybe working a reasonable trade with Washington for Kirk Cousins. You may be possibly getting a Trent Green type of player in Cousins. It's no bigger of a risk than drafting a QB. They could keep their 1st round choice & perhaps trade down a few slots and take Te'o the LB from ND, who can play in a 3-4 or 4-3. Perhaps this is the route that they should go."

What are thoughts on this?

Seek
11-07-2012, 01:58 PM
To Seek and MyManHali,

I offer another alternative that may be worthy of consideration & admittedly this is a copy and paste job from a post I made in another thread, but here it is nonetheless:

"The only other alternative that I can think of is maybe working a reasonable trade with Washington for Kirk Cousins. You may be possibly getting a Trent Green type of player in Cousins. It's no bigger of a risk than drafting a QB. They could keep their 1st round choice & perhaps trade down a few slots and take Te'o the LB from ND, who can play in a 3-4 or 4-3. Perhaps this is the route that they should go."

What are thoughts on this?

I was a little upset that Cousins went to the Redskins with the fourth round and the Chiefs passed on him taking two positions that I would rather have gone with our first instead of POE DUNK...

That being said, he has played this year and his stats are something I would not bank on as being a franchise player. Granted he is just a rookie but did throw a TD and two picks but it looks like he will have to be a Trent Green type of guy who works his butt off in a system with talent around him to perform. Not something I am currently seeing with the Chiefs coaching staff.

I wouldn't mind trading for him, but we will still need to draft someone else too. I am not sold on Barkley or Geno at this time given what they have done in adversity, and I am sure there are others who will jump up after the combine, but no one is currently projected to be a franchise stud and that bothers me since there are so many demanding we have to Draft QB with the First. I think it would be foolish to draft QB just because we have to. If that QB is a truly a franchise player which I am not a professional to say he is or is not then okay.

I do think that Washington will request more than a 4th for Cousins, which is what they gave up for him. Maybe they will take Cassel as a back up.

MyManHali
11-07-2012, 04:06 PM
I think he's saying, like most say, none of the qbs coming out this year are sure fire franchise qbs. We missed the boat last year and the year before. I think there are higher rated prospects in 2014.



Barkley can be a good qb in this league, I have watched every USC game this year, I also think Geno can be as well. When you have a top pick in the draft, its time to pull the f'ing trigger.

MyManHali
11-07-2012, 04:07 PM
To Seek and MyManHali,

I offer another alternative that may be worthy of consideration & admittedly this is a copy and paste job from a post I made in another thread, but here it is nonetheless:

"The only other alternative that I can think of is maybe working a reasonable trade with Washington for Kirk Cousins. You may be possibly getting a Trent Green type of player in Cousins. It's no bigger of a risk than drafting a QB. They could keep their 1st round choice & perhaps trade down a few slots and take Te'o the LB from ND, who can play in a 3-4 or 4-3. Perhaps this is the route that they should go."

What are thoughts on this?


I want the best QB available and if we are in right position to take Barkley, then we take him. If we are in the 5-6th position, then maybe. I have never seen Cousins play, if he is worth it then fine, but from what I have seen I would probably rather trade for someone like TJ Yates.

brdempsey69
11-07-2012, 04:13 PM
Good points, Seek.

Yes, it was a mistake to pass on DeCastro and take a project like Poe who did not produce at Division I AA. I'll never understand all this sentiment towards Lilja whose been a stop-gap measure right from the get-go and has been mediocre at best.

Taking DeCastro would have allowed to explore other areas with their 2 - 7 round choices. The Chiefs brass knew that DeCastro was the fan favorite & knew he filled a HUGE need that still exists as the middle of the Chiefs O-Line has been continually getting ran over all year long here in 2012 & Jeff Allen has struggled making the transition from Tackle in college to Guard in the NFL -- which leads one to ask, why don't the Chiefs brass employ some conventional wisdom and draft a Tackle to PLAY Tackle and a Guard to PLAY Guard instead of what they've done with Albert and Allen. Common sense, I would think.

The bottom line is Pioli's stupid draft day decisions & other player personnel blunders have put the Chiefs into major hole & some Chiefs fans want them to retain this loser of a GM?

Whatever happens, a quality QB must come from somewhere, and with the points you've made, it leads to the question: where's he going to come from going into 2013? It's a pretty big rut, as it stands right now.


I want the best QB available and if we are in right position to take Barkley, then we take him. If we are in the 5-6th position, then maybe. I have never seen Cousins play, if he is worth it then fine, but from what I have seen I would probably rather trade for someone like TJ Yates.

You are correct, if they are in a position to take Barkley, he is the most NFL-ready and I don't see much alternative but to give him a chance. Barkley could very well also fit the Trent Green type of QB and that's not such a bad thing.

Ryfo18
11-07-2012, 04:29 PM
2) Horrible pass protection. Don't let any stat sheets fool you. Opposing defenders are getting too much pressure on Chiefs QB's on a continued basis.

I'm going to disagree slightly as far as the line. I personally think the line has held up well, aside from Jeff Allen. A big part of the problem is that once Cassel's first read is gone, he's a sitting duck because he sucks at progressing through his reads.

Aside from the fact that every single one of the Chiefs linemen (except Jeff Allen) has an above average pass block rating per ProFootballFocus when compared w/ the rest of the league, here's some other interesting facts I found in their advanced stats section that can also point to the problem of "protection":

Matt Cassel takes on average 2.65 seconds before he attempts a pass. This is 7th worst among quarterbacks. Furthermore, it takes around 3.81 seconds on average until Cassel is sacked. This is 7th best in the league, meaning the line holds up pretty well.

Good quarterbacks quickly progress through their reads and get the ball out. Guys like Brady and Manning are among the top 5 in the league take only 2.4 seconds on average to get the ball out. Manning's sacks take on average only 2.5 seconds to occur...Brady's 3.26.

Compared to the rest of the league, the line has held up well and is often exposed b/c of Cassel's inability to progress through reads and get the ball out quickly. Another hint at Cassel's inability to get through his 2nd and 3rd reads is how often he just tucks and runs. This happens a lot.

brdempsey69
11-07-2012, 04:44 PM
I'm going to disagree slightly as far as the line. I personally think the line has held up well, aside from Jeff Allen. A big part of the problem is that once Cassel's first read is gone, he's a sitting duck because he sucks at progressing through his reads.

Aside from the fact that every single one of the Chiefs linemen (except Jeff Allen) has an above average pass block rating per ProFootballFocus when compared w/ the rest of the league, here's some other interesting facts I found in their advanced stats section that can also point to the problem of "protection":

Matt Cassel takes on average 2.65 seconds before he attempts a pass. This is 7th worst among quarterbacks. Furthermore, it takes around 3.81 seconds on average until Cassel is sacked. This is 7th best in the league, meaning the line holds up pretty well.

Good quarterbacks quickly progress through their reads and get the ball out. Guys like Brady and Manning are among the top 5 in the league take only 2.4 seconds on average to get the ball out. Manning's sacks take on average only 2.5 seconds to occur...Brady's 3.26.

Compared to the rest of the league, the line has held up well and is often exposed b/c of Cassel's inability to progress through reads and get the ball out quickly.

Who's kidding who? The same thing happened with Quinn in TB and would happen with any other QB. Don't feed me stat sheet numbers. I could scratch out numbers in the dirt with a stick that are as meaningful as those. The overhead camera doesn't lie -- throughout most of this season, opposing defenders have spent more time in the Chiefs backfield than the Chiefs backs have.

If you want to blame Cassel and use him as a scapegoat & be content with mediocre O-Line play, then you go right ahead, but you know better by now than to even consider counting me in on that.

Go watch that video again of Trent Green that I posted in one of your threads & try telling me that you can't see a major difference in the pass-protection that Green received as compared to what Chiefs QB's are getting in 2012 -- it's not even remotely close. Seldom has Cassel or Quinn had time to throw the ball down the field.

Ryfo18
11-07-2012, 05:42 PM
Who's kidding who? The same thing happened with Quinn in TB and would happen with any other QB. Don't feed me stat sheet numbers. I could scratch out numbers in the dirt with a stick that are as meaningful as those. The overhead camera doesn't lie -- throughout most of this season, opposing defenders have spent more time in the Chiefs backfield than the Chiefs backs have.

If you want to blame Cassel and use him as a scapegoat & be content with mediocre O-Line play, then you go right ahead, but you know better by now than to even consider counting me in on that.

Go watch that video again of Trent Green that I posted in one of your threads & try telling me that you can't see a major difference in the pass-protection that Green received as compared to what Chiefs QB's are getting in 2012 -- it's not even remotely close. Seldom has Cassel or Quinn had time to throw the ball down the field.

I just watched the TB film again on Game Rewind and I'm not sure we're talking about the same game. For the most part Quinn had a very clean pocket to throw from all game. I don't even recall a play where he took a hit.

Can you point me to a specific play that game where the pass protection really broke down (Quarter and time on the clock)? Aside from a couple of well designed blitzes where they brought 6 or 7 guys, there wasn't a lot of heat on Quinn. The Bucs didn't have a sack that game. Not saying you're wrong, I could have missed something.

I just don't get the "stats are for losers" attitude. I mean, it's not that hard to draw a conclusion from the fact that when Cassel is sacked, it takes a long time (3.81 seconds on average). That tells me the protection holds up pretty well compared to the rest of the league. It's not that I don't trust your eye either, but the guys compiling these stats are doing it for every team in the league, not just the Chiefs.

I debated (I think with you) a couple of years back that Albert was developing into a very good left tackle. Now he's one of the best in the league. These linemen need time together as a unit to continue to develop. We can't just keep drafting linemen in the 2nd/3rd round and hope we can just plug them in there and have a brick wall.

brdempsey69
11-07-2012, 05:55 PM
I just watched the TB film again on Game Rewind and I'm not sure we're talking about the same game. For the most part Quinn had a very clean pocket to throw from all game. I don't even recall a play where he took a hit.

Can you point me to a specific play that game where the pass protection really broke down (Quarter and time on the clock)? Aside from a couple of well designed blitzes where they brought 6 or 7 guys, there wasn't a lot of heat on Quinn. The Bucs didn't have a sack that game.

He was throwing mainly short passes throughout the game and seldom held the ball long enough for downfield plays to develop. They would have sacked him multiple times if he had. Don't try and tell me that constitutes good O-Line play. Often times he had to get rid of the ball quickly & was under constant pressure. He simply did not take sacks. And what about the running game in the TB game? It was non-existent.

Go watch the game TB played the next week against NO and try telling me that there wasn't a distinct difference between the protection that Drew Brees received versus what Quinn had received the week before. It's not even close.

azchiefsfan
11-07-2012, 06:14 PM
Worthlessburger takes about the longest time in the league to throw a pass, but he has receivers that keep playing instead of running the route and then stopping and putting their hands on their hips while watching Cassel get creamed. Our O line is pretty good. I honestly no longer am sure what the biggest problem on offense is, but I know what it isn't: our O line. I think it is still a case of horrible coaching and play-calling. But, even though I think Cassel can be a solid QB, he clearly isn't a good leader. If he had a good rapport with his receivers, he could direct his receivers better and get plays done. I think we missed a huge opportunity not picking up Kellen Moore for the league minimum when he wasn't drafted. He is only the winningest QB in NCAA history, including 12 victories over top 10 teams over his 4 years. Instead, he went to Detroit where he'll never be able to show how good he can be in the NFL. BTW, if Barkley is the best QB in the draft, we better hope Pioli/Hunt pony up for a proven starter at QB. Because Barkley wouldn't have even been drafted last year. This is going to be a backup QB draft.

Ryfo18
11-07-2012, 06:19 PM
He was throwing mainly short passes throughout the game and seldom held the ball long enough for downfield plays to develop. They would have sacked him multiple times if he had. Don't try and tell me that constitutes good O-Line play. Often times he had to get rid of the ball quickly & was under constant pressure. He simply did not take sacks. And what about the running game in the TB game? It was non-existent.

Go watch the game TB played the next week against NO and try telling me that there wasn't a distinct difference between the protection that Drew Brees received versus what Quinn had received the week before. It's not even close.

Few things:

1.) Watched the first quarter of the TB vs NO game (don't have time to review it all). The Bucs routinely just rushed 4. Yes, NO's pass rush held up well against a 4-man rush. Just twice on his 10 first quarter throws did they bring extra pressure, and that was in the form of one extra rusher. So a 5-man rush. Not that tough to defend.

In the KC vs TB game, they routinely brought 5, and a lot of times they brought 6 or 7. Defenses respect Brees in that they know they have to drop 7 into coverage. The same cannot be said for Brady Quinn.

2.) The playcalling by the Chiefs should not lead to irrational blame being placed on the line. They still held up well, and times when the Bucs brought 4 or more, I was able to count to 3 before the ball came out (and still no rusher near). The 18-yard completion to Moeaki w/ 12:20 in the 3rd is a good example, as well as the the 19-yard completion to Maneri at 11:10 (same drive).

3.) The Bucs are the league's best when it comes to stopping the run. They allow a 85 per game (6th best) and a league low 3.5 ypc. Add in the fact that you have noodle armed Brady Quinn under center, they stacked the box routinely. They're obviously tough to beat on the ground.

Overall, I think you're exaggerating the O-line being an issue.

brdempsey69
11-07-2012, 06:29 PM
Worthlessburger takes about the longest time in the league to throw a pass, but he has receivers that keep playing instead of running the route and then stopping and putting their hands on their hips while watching Cassel get creamed. Our O line is pretty good. I honestly no longer am sure what the biggest problem on offense is, but I know what it isn't: our O line. I think it is still a case of horrible coaching and play-calling. But, even though I think Cassel can be a solid QB, he clearly isn't a good leader. If he had a good rapport with his receivers, he could direct his receivers better and get plays done. I think we missed a huge opportunity not picking up Kellen Moore for the league minimum when he wasn't drafted. He is only the winningest QB in NCAA history, including 12 victories over top 10 teams over his 4 years. Instead, he went to Detroit where he'll never be able to show how good he can be in the NFL. BTW, if Barkley is the best QB in the draft, we better hope Pioli/Hunt pony up for a proven starter at QB. Because Barkley wouldn't have even been drafted last year. This is going to be a backup QB draft.

The above in bold is totally bogus.

I've watch their O-Line -- and saw it up close and personal when they hosted SD at Arrowhead -- get ran over on a continued basis this year. Len Dawson has repeatedly stated during his live broadcasts, week in and week out, that "they aren't getting the job done". The Raiders game is a perfect example. One can easily see the difference between the protection that Carson Palmer received versus what Chiefs QB's received.

Secondly, the statement that Barkley would not have been drafted had he come out for 2012 draft is pure bullsh!t. Buffalo might very well have snapped him up with the 10th overall pick and it's highly doubtful that Cleveland would have taken Weeden over Barkley at #27 overall.

Sounds like you are thinking with Pioli's loser-type mentality.

brdempsey69
11-07-2012, 07:18 PM
Few things:

1.) Watched the first quarter of the TB vs NO game (don't have time to review it all). The Bucs routinely just rushed 4. Yes, NO's pass rush held up well against a 4-man rush. Just twice on his 10 first quarter throws did they bring extra pressure, and that was in the form of one extra rusher. So a 5-man rush. Not that tough to defend.


LOL, I just watched the Chiefs 1st Offensive series against TB. Not only were they able to get pressure on Quinn with just a 4 man rush on the first 3 plays, on the first play TB's left DE Bennett smothered Charles for a 1-yard loss on Quinn's short throw to Charles. On 2nd down, they threw a WR screen to Dex, but there were 3 D-lineman that almost got Quinn -- they didn't even so much as chip any of those guys. On 3rd down Quinn threw the ball as soon as it was snapped to him on a quick slant that was incomplete. Throughout the game TB's 4 D-lineman were constantly getting penetration into the backfield.




In the KC vs TB game, they routinely brought 5, and a lot of times they brought 6 or 7. Defenses respect Brees in that they know they have to drop 7 into coverage. The same cannot be said for Brady Quinn.


It's routine for a team to bring more heat when they have the lead and know the opposing team has to throw. They tried it on Brees when they got ahead & his protection held up. Simple, really.



2.) The playcalling by the Chiefs should not lead to irrational blame being placed on the line. They still held up well, and times when the Bucs brought 4 or more, I was able to count to 3 before the ball came out (and still no rusher near). The 18-yard completion to Moeaki w/ 12:20 in the 3rd is a good example, as well as the the 19-yard completion to Maneri at 11:10 (same drive).


The play calling had very little to do with anything in the TB game. The times you were able to count to 3 were the exception, not the rule. The main point is they didn't have time to take shots down the field when it was still a close game.



3.) The Bucs are the league's best when it comes to stopping the run. They allow a 85 per game (6th best) and a league low 3.5 ypc. Add in the fact that you have noodle armed Brady Quinn under center, they stacked the box routinely. They're obviously tough to beat on the ground.


Precisely why you have to be able to protect the passer & give him time to throw downfield -- to set up your running game against that type of defense & the Chiefs couldn't do it early on in that game.



Overall, I think you're exaggerating the O-line being an issue.

Then you are thinking like an utter fool possessing Pioli's loser-type mentality. Is Len Dawson also exaggerating it as well when he states during his live broadcast of Chiefs games over and over again that "they aren't getting the job done" in regards to their O-Line? Bottom line is that they aren't very good. When you have a Guard playing out of position at LT and he's supposedly the best you've got, then you aren't very good. Simple, really.

Ryfo18
11-07-2012, 07:46 PM
LOL, I just watched the Chiefs 1st Offensive series against TB. Not only were they able to get pressure on Quinn with just a 4 man rush on the first 3 plays, on the first play TB's left DE Bennett smothered Charles for a 1-yard loss on Quinn's short throw to Charles. On 2nd down, they threw a WR screen to Dex, but there were 3 D-lineman that almost got Quinn -- they didn't even so much as chip any of those guys. On 3rd down Quinn threw the ball as soon as it was snapped to him on a quick slant that was incomplete. Throughout the game TB's 4 D-lineman were constantly getting penetration into the backfield.


Pressure? On called screen plays? The linemen's job is to let rushers free so that they can get up field to block.

First play, called screen pass to Charles. Winston seals the outside linebacker and Charles has 10 yards to run if he takes off to the right. Instead, he cuts back right where the defense is and gets tackled from behind. If he doesn't make that cut back, he runs for 10 yards and is one one one with the corner.

Everyone can see that here:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/RyFo18/charles_play1.jpg


The second play is another called screen. Albert engages the DE and swims over him to block down field for McCluster, who will catch the ball. The DE reads the screen and the play goes nowhere.

Picture 1: Albert (76) engages the Defensive End

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/RyFo18/mccluster_screen.jpg

Picture 2: Defensive End stays home and sniffs out the screen.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/RyFo18/screen_mccluster.jpg


Well played by the defensive end.

Though now I can see why you think our line is bad...because they allow untouched blockers go free at the quarterback on called screen plays. That's supposed to happen by design.

azchiefsfan
11-07-2012, 08:22 PM
The above in bold is totally bogus.

I've watch their O-Line -- and saw it up close and personal when they hosted SD at Arrowhead -- get ran over on a continued basis this year. Len Dawson has repeatedly stated during his live broadcasts, week in and week out, that "they aren't getting the job done". The Raiders game is a perfect example. One can easily see the difference between the protection that Carson Palmer received versus what Chiefs QB's received.

Secondly, the statement that Barkley would not have been drafted had he come out for 2012 draft is pure bullsh!t. Buffalo might very well have snapped him up with the 10th overall pick and it's highly doubtful that Cleveland would have taken Weeden over Barkley at #27 overall.

Sounds like you are thinking with Pioli's loser-type mentality.

Offensive Power Rankings: Ravens, Patriots on top - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066956/article/offensive-power-rankings-ravens-patriots-on-top)

NFL.com says they are "mediocre", but not poor. I'm unsure of why you are trying to be offensive, but since you have no ability to look objectively at a game, I figure it must be over-compensation and insecurity.

I won't respond in kind, except to say that you might want to switch to decaf and give up beer. I'd hate to see you stroke out in a real argument...you are a Chiefs fan after all.

MyManHali
11-07-2012, 08:25 PM
Worthlessburger takes about the longest time in the league to throw a pass, but he has receivers that keep playing instead of running the route and then stopping and putting their hands on their hips while watching Cassel get creamed. Our O line is pretty good. I honestly no longer am sure what the biggest problem on offense is, but I know what it isn't: our O line. I think it is still a case of horrible coaching and play-calling. But, even though I think Cassel can be a solid QB, he clearly isn't a good leader. If he had a good rapport with his receivers, he could direct his receivers better and get plays done. I think we missed a huge opportunity not picking up Kellen Moore for the league minimum when he wasn't drafted. He is only the winningest QB in NCAA history, including 12 victories over top 10 teams over his 4 years. Instead, he went to Detroit where he'll never be able to show how good he can be in the NFL. BTW, if Barkley is the best QB in the draft, we better hope Pioli/Hunt pony up for a proven starter at QB. Because Barkley wouldn't have even been drafted last year. This is going to be a backup QB draft.


Our line is fine. We have enough weapons on offense, the problem is we don't have a qb who can open up the offense and throw downfield.

brdempsey69
11-07-2012, 08:47 PM
Pressure? On called screen plays? The linemen's job is to let rushers free so that they can get up field to block.

First play, called screen pass to Charles. Winston seals the outside linebacker and Charles has 10 yards to run if he takes off to the right. Instead, he cuts back right where the defense is and gets tackled from behind. If he doesn't make that cut back, he runs for 10 yards and is one one one with the corner.

Everyone can see that here:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/RyFo18/charles_play1.jpg


The only thing anyone can see here is that Charles was surrounded & had nowhere to go once he caught the ball. And that isn't Winston out there on the edge, it's Asamoah. Winston can clearly be seen in the center of the picture, right in front of Quinn. And that play WASN'T a designed screen pass -- that's bullsh!t -- it was dump-off out of necessity because of the pressure that Quinn saw coming. Why the fabricated lie to try and support your argument?



The second play is another called screen. Albert engages the DE and swims over him to block down field for McCluster, who will catch the ball. The DE reads the screen and the play goes nowhere.

Picture 1: Albert (76) engages the Defensive End

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/RyFo18/mccluster_screen.jpg

Picture 2: Defensive End stays home and sniffs out the screen.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/RyFo18/screen_mccluster.jpg
Well played by the defensive end.


That's NOT what I was referring to. It's the floodgate coming from the other side of the play. If for any reason Quinn had to hold on to that ball, he gets nailed for a loss. The guys on the other side of the play are still supposed to block somebody.



Though now I can see why you think our line is bad...because they allow untouched blockers go free at the quarterback on called screen plays. That's supposed to happen by design.

That's BULLSH!T !! You aren't seeing anything except what you want to believe. The reality is TB's 4 D-Lineman were getting the better of the Chiefs O-Line on too many plays throughout the game. And that same thing has happened in just about all the games this year.

The fact is I'm not of any opinion when I say their O-Line isn't very good. That is a fact & I've watched it with my own eyes repeatedly throughout this season. They are nowhere close to the level of O-Line that the Chiefs had under Marty's years as HC or Dick Vermeil's years as HC. Many times under those regimes, their O-Lines dominated and took over games, sometimes even when they were playing from behind. We haven't seen anything even remotely close to that this year -- except maybe the 2nd part of the NO game in which incidentally, Charles 91 yard run could have been called back by a holding penalty on Albert ( He's damn lucky they didn't flag him ).

Like I said, if you think this group is good, then you are thinking with Scott Pioli's lose-type mentality.

brdempsey69
11-07-2012, 09:09 PM
Offensive Power Rankings: Ravens, Patriots on top - NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066956/article/offensive-power-rankings-ravens-patriots-on-top)

NFL.com says they are "mediocre", but not poor.


LOL, mediocre and poor happen to be one and the same.



I'm unsure of why you are trying to be offensive....


Simply telling it like it is. What you had said was BS. If you find it offensive .... too bad.



....but since you have no ability to look objectively at a game...


Quite the contrary. I do look at the game objectively. I'm simply not a cheerleader.



I figure it must be over-compensation and insecurity.


The old proverbial copout of "can't attack the message, so attack the messenger". Fact is I'm quite secure & know what I've seen & simply call it like I see it.



I won't respond in kind, except to say that you might want to switch to decaf and give up beer.


Don't drink alcohol and haven't in over a decade. Nice try, but you fail.



I'd hate to see you stroke out in a real argument...you are a Chiefs fan after all.

In other words, you are unable to refute the points that I made that illustrated what you said to be totally bogus. Who's really "stroked out" ?


Our line is fine. We have enough weapons on offense, the problem is we don't have a qb who can open up the offense and throw downfield.

Sorry, but pass protection must improve or no QB is going to be able to open up the Offense. Receivers must also do a better job at getting separation from defenders.

azchiefsfan
11-07-2012, 09:26 PM
Actually you're the typical BSer. You think you know it all and everyone else is wrong. But, hey, I'm somewhat of a BSer myself. But every now and then I like to see a real professional. Please carry on. You haven't given one single fact to back up one of your contentions yet, other than giving more aggressive over-compensation. Keep shoveling, you're just digging a hole deeper in the bullsh*thole.

azchiefsfan
11-07-2012, 09:29 PM
You are the loud-mouth uncle that everyone avoids at Thanksgiving, but pretend to care what you think so as not to start an argument. At first I was irritated, but now I can't wait to see what BS you post next.

Ryfo18
11-07-2012, 09:43 PM
The only thing anyone can see here is that Charles was surrounded & had nowhere to go once he caught the ball. And that isn't Winston out there on the edge, it's Asamoah. Winston can clearly be seen in the center of the picture, right in front of Quinn. And that play WASN'T a designed screen pass -- that's bullsh!t -- it was dump-off out of necessity because of the pressure that Quinn saw coming. Why the fabricated lie to try and support your argument?

Charles was not surrounded, UNTIL he cut back to the left (you can clearly see in the picture above that he is cutting left), bringing the defenders behind the play back into the play. And you're correct, Asamoah.

If that isn't a designed screen call, then why in the world do the Center and Right Guard release from their blocks and go downfield to block to the same side where Charles is sitting?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/RyFo18/charles_screen2.jpg

What about the Center and Right Guard releasing to block downfield from a screen is lying?


That's NOT what I was referring to. It's the floodgate coming from the other side of the play. If for any reason Quinn had to hold on to that ball, he gets nailed for a loss. The guys on the other side of the play are still supposed to block somebody.

The floodgate comes from the other side because the center and right guard chip and then go block downfield.

Here they are chipping:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/RyFo18/mccluster_screen-1.jpg

Here they are after the ball is out blocking downfield:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/RyFo18/mccluster_screen2.jpg

If you're going to attack the guys for doing their job like the play was drawn up, then you're free to do that.





That's BULLSH!T !! You aren't seeing anything except what you want to believe. The reality is TB's 4 D-Lineman were getting the better of the Chiefs O-Line on too many plays throughout the game. And that same thing has happened in just about all the games this year.

Again, after watching every pass that was thrown I can't find one example of their 4-man rush getting any pressure on Quinn. You're telling me it happens, and that "the eye in the sky doesn't lie." And it's not just that I couldn't find it on one play, you're saying that it happened "on too many plays." I'm still waiting for an example of this (other than designed screens).


The fact is I'm not of any opinion when I say their O-Line isn't very good. That is a fact & I've watched it with my own eyes repeatedly throughout this season. They are nowhere close to the level of O-Line that the Chiefs had under Marty's years as HC or Dick Vermeil's years as HC. Many times under those regimes, their O-Lines dominated and took over games, sometimes even when they were playing from behind. We haven't seen anything even remotely close to that this year -- except maybe the 2nd part of the NO game in which incidentally, Charles 91 yard run could have been called back by a holding penalty on Albert ( He's damn lucky they didn't flag him ).

Like I said, if you think this group is good, then you are thinking with Scott Pioli's lose-type mentality.

Please stop throwing the word "fact" around when presenting your opinion of the O-line. I've thrown out statistical facts as to how long it takes Cassel to get the ball out (way above average), how long it takes before he's sacked (also way above average, in a good way), and provided my opinions on some film study for everyone to see. People can form their own opinions as to how the O-line has performed. Your opinion is that the O-line has performed poorly.

I have not adopted Scott Pioli's losing mentality at all. I'm not sure where you are forming that opinion. Above you criticized azchiefsfan for shooting the messenger. Who's doing that now?


It's routine for a team to bring more heat when they have the lead and know the opposing team has to throw. They tried it on Brees when they got ahead & his protection held up. Simple, really.

Did they try it on Brees? I charted everyone of Brees's throws in the 2nd quarter of that game. The first time New Orleans got the ball in that quarter they were down 21-7. It's actually more routine for defenses when they are up to sit back and not allow big plays. But anyway, here's how each of Brees's passes ended up and how many rushers TB brought:

1.) - TB brings 5 guys, one guy comes in untouched, Brees throws the ball away.
2.) TB rushes 3, 13 yard gain to Lance Moore.
3.) TB Brings 5, Brees gets the ball out in under 3 seconds for a 30-yard gain to Henderson.
4.) TB brings 4, complete pass to Colston for 17 yards.
5.) TB brings 4, Brees dumps off to Sproles for an easy touchdown.

TB up 21-14

Next Drive:

6.) TB brings 4, Brees passes to Moore for 13 yards.
7.) TB Brings 3, Brees passes to Moore for 16 yards.
8.) TB brings 4, 48 yard pass to Morgan for a TD

Game tied 21-21

Next Drive:

9.) TB brings 4, complete to Sproles 8 yards.
10.) TB brings 5, balls out in 2 seconds, Moore for 13 yards.
11.) TB Brings 4, pass to Thomas for 7 yards.
12.) TB brings 4, incomplete pass.
13.) TB brings 3, complete to Moore for 9 yards.
14.) TB brings 4, complete to Moore for 18 yards.
15.) TB brings 3, pass to Thomas for 20 yards and a TD.

NO up 28-21 and never trailed after that. End of the 2nd quarter.

The Breakdown

Tampa Bay brought 5 rushers in 10 passes (20%) in the first quarter (see my earlier post).

In the second quarter, TB brought 5 rushers 3 times in 15 passes (hey look at that, also 20%). They also brought 3 rushers just as many times as they brought 5. So no, they did not bring more heat. They brought the exact same amount of heat.

Not once did Tampa Bay bring more than 5 rushers in the first half, despite a 21-7 lead.





It's very clear to me that you are watching these games, but you're making unsupported claims to support your side of this argument. I watch a lot of film, I love doing it. If you claim something, I'm going to go look for it in the film. When I don't see those claims, I have to wonder why we should value your opinion.

If I recall, we had a similar argument over Berry giving up a TD a couple years ago. You said he did, I said it was Derrick Johnson's fault b/c they were in a Tampa 2 coverage where Johnson has the deep middle of the field, Berry had the right side of the field. The pass was completed to Lloyd for a TD in the middle of the field and that time I showed you why it was Johnson's fault.

Anyway, good debate. I'm not going to spend anymore time on it. I've presented my side as I see fit and will let others form their opinions.

Ryfo18
11-07-2012, 09:57 PM
One last thing, Quinn didn't even take a hit in that Bucs game.

Seek
11-08-2012, 01:39 PM
I want the best QB available and if we are in right position to take Barkley, then we take him. If we are in the 5-6th position, then maybe. I have never seen Cousins play, if he is worth it then fine, but from what I have seen I would probably rather trade for someone like TJ Yates.

Again, I am not an expert on this subject, but everything I have heard is that Barkley's stock has dropped significantly this year and that many people locally are saying that hBarkley is very comparable to Matt Cassel except for the fact that he actually has College game time experience. Now I don't know if that is Anti USC QB BS, but it does bother me a whole bunch that USC QB's fail in the NFL as they tend to be a product of a superior college team and system but not true NFL talent. The fact that his stock is dropping while facing adversity this year has me concerned as many had him as the #1 draft pick before the season started and the public opinion of drafting him this early in the season no matter what is not in the best interest of the team.

There has got to be another Russel Wilson or Tannehill in this draft waiting to be picked. Maybe taking a flyer on a guy like Kline in the 3rd round is smarter.. I don't know, but I am not on the side of the fence that says QB no matter the options... but they better find a QB or two some where.

Ryfo18
11-08-2012, 01:52 PM
There has got to be another Russel Wilson or Tannehill in this draft waiting to be picked. Maybe taking a flyer on a guy like Kline in the 3rd round is smarter.. I don't know, but I am not on the side of the fence that says QB no matter the options... but they better find a QB or two some where.

I really wish we would have drafted Russell Wilson last year :sAng_scream: :sAng_scream:

MyManHali
11-08-2012, 04:44 PM
Again, I am not an expert on this subject, but everything I have heard is that Barkley's stock has dropped significantly this year and that many people locally are saying that hBarkley is very comparable to Matt Cassel except for the fact that he actually has College game time experience. Now I don't know if that is Anti USC QB BS, but it does bother me a whole bunch that USC QB's fail in the NFL as they tend to be a product of a superior college team and system but not true NFL talent. The fact that his stock is dropping while facing adversity this year has me concerned as many had him as the #1 draft pick before the season started and the public opinion of drafting him this early in the season no matter what is not in the best interest of the team.

There has got to be another Russel Wilson or Tannehill in this draft waiting to be picked. Maybe taking a flyer on a guy like Kline in the 3rd round is smarter.. I don't know, but I am not on the side of the fence that says QB no matter the options... but they better find a QB or two some where.


Trust me, no one hates Matt Cassel more than I do. I have seen Barkley throw multiple times 40 yards downfield, perfect strikes. When has Matt Cassel ever done that? The only thing you can compare with Cassel and Barkley is they were both from USC, named Matt, and wear number 7.

We need to take the risk Seek, it's time.

AkChief49
11-08-2012, 07:30 PM
Trust me, no one hates Matt Cassel more than I do. I have seen Barkley throw multiple times 40 yards downfield, perfect strikes. When has Matt Cassel ever done that? The only thing you can compare with Cassel and Barkley is they were both from USC, named Matt, and wear number 7.

We need to take the risk Seek, it's time.
Perhaps Barkley can be the first USC QB to win a Superbowl?

jap1
11-09-2012, 03:11 AM
Perhaps Barkley can be the first USC QB to win a Superbowl?

I hope that's the case ... If he comes to KC.

Bike
11-09-2012, 10:58 AM
Another 6 mil wasted. Nice job Scott.

Seek
11-09-2012, 12:40 PM
Trust me, no one hates Matt Cassel more than I do. I have seen Barkley throw multiple times 40 yards downfield, perfect strikes. When has Matt Cassel ever done that? The only thing you can compare with Cassel and Barkley is they were both from USC, named Matt, and wear number 7.

We need to take the risk Seek, it's time.


I have seen him do it al lot in warm ups and at practice. The difference is what will Barkley do when there is an NFL talent waiting to hawk his ball or is covering the receiver tighter than he is used to seeing in College. Since you have watched hims as much as you say you have, I believe your opinion may be a bit biased.

Again, I am not an expert, but there are many people who are who are raising up flags around Barkley. People are saying the Combine will expose a lot of it.

MissingTBone
11-10-2012, 07:08 PM
Can anyone tell me.... If Routt signs with another team do we take the full cap hit still?