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FranciscoD'anconia
01-10-2013, 10:22 AM
Hi, I'm an Andy Reid fan from Philly (started a couple other threads) and a new Chiefs fan. I'm trying to study up on your roster. Can some of you help me out with some of this?

It looks like you have several very high draft picks on defense who look like busts. Here are my impressions, without knowing much about the Chiefs. You guys can tell me if I'm on the right/wrong track.

Tyson Jackson: Looks like a bust. Some one who physically would be ideally suited to play 3-4 DE, but has not been in the least bit productive. Probably makes a lot of money. Some one I'm guessing Reid will get rid of when he cleans house. Am I missing something with him? Does he have any redeeming qualities?

Glen Dorsey: Looks like a bust, but possibly miscast. If Reid brings in a 4-3 DC, possibly Dorsey could excel in that role. He looks like he has an enormous contract. I'm guessing that if they remain a 3-4 team he might get cut. If they switch to a 4-3, the new GM might ask him to take a pay cut, restructure and then compete as a 4-3 DT. Am I reading his situation correctly?

Dontari Poe: My Eagles drafted DT Fletcher Cox one pick later, who turned out to be a stud. Poe looks like some one who could only play 3-4 NT. Does he have the quickness and motor to play 4-3 DT? Reid likes defensive linemen with "motors" who are relentless on every down. If they switch schemes, I could picture him as trade bait. What are the impressions of him?

Tamba Hali: I'm a Penn State grad. Love this guy. He's an Andy Reid type of guy with the relentless motor. Seems like he could play both 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE equally well. Is that correct? He's getting up there in age. I just watched Trent Cole hit 30 and fall off considerably this past season. Hope Hali has a little more left in the tank.

Dereck Johnson: This guy seems like a stud, but he's 30 years old. Does he call the signals on the defense? Wear the helmet with the headset? If they switch to a 4-3, would he hold up well as the MIKE LB?

Justin Houston: This seems like the type of guy that Reid would want to build his defense around. A talented/productive young guy. Not much of a cap hit. Problem is, what to do with him if they switch to a 4-3? Seems too small to play DE, and too much of a pure pass rusher to play OLB in a 4-3. Does he have experience as a 4-3 DE in college and does he have a frame to bulk up 10-15 pounds?

I know that Berry and Flowers are good. The other guys in the secondary need to go? Has Berry lived up to expectations?

Thanks!

Three7s
01-10-2013, 10:49 AM
You're right on with just about all of them.

Jackson is nothing more than a run-stopper with absolutely no pass rush ability and can't get on the field on 3rd down.

Dorsey is about the same thing as Jackson, only he's injury prone. Both he and Jackson should be gone next year.

Poe wasn't terrible for a rookie, but we'll see if he gets better next year. He played a lot of snaps iirc. I wouldn't be terribly upset if we traded him, but we would be thin on DL depth if we did.

Hali wasn't nearly as good this last year and I do think he's lost a step, but he should be good for about 10 sacks a year for the next few.

DJ was an underachiever, but ever since he started playing with more intensity, rather than just relying on talent, he's been one of the best ILBs in the league. He used to have trouble taking on blocks, and that was mostly due to a lack of intensity. I have no doubt he could handle Mike LB in the 4-3.

Houston is a pure pass rusher, much like Von Miller. He does have the ability to stop the run and shows great lateral quickness on outside runs and boot legs. His issue is tha the disappears at times in games. The guy has the potential to be elite in this league.

Hope this helps!

FranciscoD'anconia
01-10-2013, 12:38 PM
Sounds good. Reid will figure it out. If he goes to a 4-3, he'll have a plan. Reid doesn't take a dump without having a plan.

nigeriannightmare
01-10-2013, 01:08 PM
Our defense is soo frustrating. There is talent on the roster as we do have 5 pro bowlers but hell we have 5 first rounders out there they shoul be talented.

If Andy Reid gets our offense to score points I think our defense is ping to really shine. The Chiefs D was defending an awful short field entirely too many times. So it was inevitable the points we would give up.

I hope they stay in the 3-4. But it seems that 4-3 under is a route we may go according to what people around here are saying.

FranciscoD'anconia
01-10-2013, 02:00 PM
He'll fix the offense. Don't worry about that.

As far as defense. I don't know that it's a given that he'll switch to a 4-3. I mean, he probably will. It's what he's used to. But he generally tends to be a little more hands off with the defense, leaving that up to the defensive coaches. He'll look at that with an open mind.

texaschief
01-10-2013, 02:14 PM
Dorsey, Jackson, and Poe did what was asked of them. They stopped the run and kept the O-linemen off the linebackers and allowed them to make plays. Dorsey and Jackson specifically were never asked to provide pressure on the QB. Pioli and Crennel said as much when they were talking about Poe's role going into the season. Both Jackson and Dorsey showed incredible ability for making plays behind the line of scrimmage while playing in the SEC at LSU. The defensive scheme they've been playing in the last 3 or 4 years has not been conducive to their talents for making such plays. That's why you see DJ making so many plays when he shoots the gaps... he's able to make those plays because the D-linemen are doing their jobs.

That being said, I don't think Jackson has a place on a 4-3 defense and with his salary ballooning up to 14M this season, I could see a trade, release, or perhaps a re-structure coming for him.

Dorsey has all the tools to be an elite pass-rushing DT in the form of Warren Sapp or Albert Haynesworth. He just wasn't in the right system to show that ability.

Hali is still a top 5 pass rusher in this league. He didn't "lose a step." Hali was double-teamed and sometimes triple teamed EVERY week. The opposing offenses did a great job neutralizing Hali. They could afford to do that because the Chiefs rarely blitzed and didn't get pressure from anywhere other than Houston on the other side. It may have LOOKED like Hali "lost a step," but in reality, the offense couldn't stay on the field and the truth was Hali and the rest of the defense was absolutely gassed for most of the season. Put an offense who can play with a lead or at the very least give the defense a breather and you'll see the Chiefs as a top 10 or even top 5 defense. There's way too much talent on that defense for them NOT to be a dominant defense.

Hali, Johnson, Berry, Dorsey, Jackson, and Poe are all 1st round picks. Houston and Flowers SHOULD have been 1st round picks. There's a TON of talent on this defense... don't worry.

chiefnut
01-10-2013, 02:14 PM
Hey Francisco, how ya doin? i'm in NE PA and have been to Big Charlies bar in south Philly to watch a couple of CHIEFS games. maybe we can meet up there next season. Dorsey would do well in a 4-3 as well as Poe who is unbelievably quick for a big man. glad to have you on board. my best friend is an eagles fan who hates reid and vick.

ctchiefsfan
01-10-2013, 02:21 PM
If Andy Reid gets our offense to score points I think our defense is ping to really shine. The Chiefs D was defending an awful short field entirely too many times. So it was inevitable the points we would give up.

Exactly so!!!! The D had EVERYTHING against it this year......

An offense that couldn't score points. They pretty much knew that to win a game they were going to have to hold the opposing offense to under 14 points.

In addition, our offense was turning the ball over left and right by INT and fumble.

Even worse, we couldn't even get a few 1st downs on a lot of possessions. So often when our D stopped the opposing offense 5 minutes later they were right back on the field with the opposition having the ball right where they were 5 minutes earlier.

Put all that together for a few games and you have a flat out demoralized Defense.

I know they are all professionals and get paid a lot of money, but when you stack all that against them and then the coach stands up in front of the media and says he just doesn't know what is wrong....well it's got to be hard for even the best of professionals not to get demoralized.

Hell...this season even demoralized all us Chiefs fans.

Give our D an offense that scores some points and when they don't at least gets a few first downs so that when our D does go back on the field they at least are starting their defensive series somewhere between the opponents goal line and their 30 and I think we will have a pretty strong D.

I don't think there is anything wrong with our D that having an offense that scores some points and moves the ball a bit won't cure.

FranciscoD'anconia
01-10-2013, 02:55 PM
Yeah, this is why, as an outsider, I think that the discussion of your defensive line is interesting. Three highly drafted guys who are supposed to be talented, but are not getting the numbers. Is that the system? If it's because they play in a 3-4 and their job is to get guys off of linebackers, how do you explain the success of other 3-4 DEs like Seymore and JJ Watt? And why would you draft some one with the 3rd and 5th overall picks just to occupy blockers while some one else makes plays?

I don't know if Reid will go to a 4-3 or keep a 3-4, but I don't see him keeping some one around who makes $14 million and doesn't make plays, even if it's what he had been asked to do. If the defense was ranked 20th, something wasn't working. So that's why I'm trying to figure it out, in the same way that Reid is looking at it trying to figure it out.

Chiefnut, your best friend sounds like a typical Eagles fan. They all hate Reid, but they all hate just about everybody. The only Eagle who was really loved in Philadelphia was Brian Dawkins. I can't think of another player or coach since at least Reggie White that I can say that about, and I'm not even sure about him. But I can tell you guys this: they're all wrong. Andy Reid is a great coach and you guys in Kansas City are very fortunate to have him. Don't listen to the haters in Philly.

Three7s
01-10-2013, 03:14 PM
Yeah, this is why, as an outsider, I think that the discussion of your defensive line is interesting. Three highly drafted guys who are supposed to be talented, but are not getting the numbers. Is that the system? If it's because they play in a 3-4 and their job is to get guys off of linebackers, how do you explain the success of other 3-4 DEs like Seymore and JJ Watt? And why would you draft some one with the 3rd and 5th overall picks just to occupy blockers while some one else makes plays?

I don't know if Reid will go to a 4-3 or keep a 3-4, but I don't see him keeping some one around who makes $14 million and doesn't make plays, even if it's what he had been asked to do. If the defense was ranked 20th, something wasn't working. So that's why I'm trying to figure it out, in the same way that Reid is looking at it trying to figure it out.

Chiefnut, your best friend sounds like a typical Eagles fan. They all hate Reid, but they all hate just about everybody. The only Eagle who was really loved in Philadelphia was Brian Dawkins. I can't think of another player or coach since at least Reggie White that I can say that about, and I'm not even sure about him. But I can tell you guys this: they're all wrong. Andy Reid is a great coach and you guys in Kansas City are very fortunate to have him. Don't listen to the haters in Philly.
I'm pretty sure Romeo used a 2-gap system. It's still ridiculous that they can get no pressure when a QB drops back to pass.

brdempsey69
01-10-2013, 03:32 PM
Yeah, this is why, as an outsider, I think that the discussion of your defensive line is interesting. Three highly drafted guys who are supposed to be talented, but are not getting the numbers. Is that the system? If it's because they play in a 3-4 and their job is to get guys off of linebackers, how do you explain the success of other 3-4 DEs like Seymore and JJ Watt? And why would you draft some one with the 3rd and 5th overall picks just to occupy blockers while some one else makes plays?................

That right there was Pioli's folly. The answer is you don't draft D-Lineman who played 4-3 in college to play 3-4 in the pros with a top 5 pick. They're better served to look for 3-4 type of guys in later rounds or FA that have experience playing in the 3-4.

This statement of "it's 3-4 D-Linemans job to take up blockers" is unacceptable when referring to players taken in the top 5, and many are forgetting how Neil Smith, Bill Maas, and Dan Saleaumua were able to get consistent pressure on opposing QB's playing in the 3-4 back in the 90's.

FranciscoD'anconia
01-10-2013, 03:44 PM
Yeah, Neil Smith!! I don't follow the Chiefs, but I sure remember him. He was a beast! So they played a 3-4 back then? Yeah, no excuse. This line needs to be upgraded. Reid likes to win in the trenches. He's going to want to do something about this line.

jap1
01-10-2013, 03:49 PM
Yeah, this is why, as an outsider, I think that the discussion of your defensive line is interesting. Three highly drafted guys who are supposed to be talented, but are not getting the numbers. Is that the system? If it's because they play in a 3-4 and their job is to get guys off of linebackers, how do you explain the success of other 3-4 DEs like Seymore and JJ Watt? And why would you draft some one with the 3rd and 5th overall picks just to occupy blockers while some one else makes plays?

I don't know if Reid will go to a 4-3 or keep a 3-4, but I don't see him keeping some one around who makes $14 million and doesn't make plays, even if it's what he had been asked to do. If the defense was ranked 20th, something wasn't working. So that's why I'm trying to figure it out, in the same way that Reid is looking at it trying to figure it out.

Chiefnut, your best friend sounds like a typical Eagles fan. They all hate Reid, but they all hate just about everybody. The only Eagle who was really loved in Philadelphia was Brian Dawkins. I can't think of another player or coach since at least Reggie White that I can say that about, and I'm not even sure about him. But I can tell you guys this: they're all wrong. Andy Reid is a great coach and you guys in Kansas City are very fortunate to have him. Don't listen to the haters in Philly.

Without getting too technical, the type of 3-4 that Crennel used had the DL occupying blockers. It is a different type of 3-4 than Houston and some other teams used.

One thing to note is that when Crennel fired himself as DC, Tyson Jackson got 3sacks. He used to never play on 3rd down and in the second half of the season they started to use him.

My opinion on the players is along the same lines as Texaschief.

Also, it is important to note that Dorsey is a free agent. He would probably demand a big contract with a 4-3 team.

In the secondary, Arenas filled in at CB when we released Routt. He did ok, but got torched by Manning and the donkeys. Lewis is serviceable at FS but injury prone. We need some better depth all around in the secondary.

texaschief
01-10-2013, 03:51 PM
Yeah, this is why, as an outsider, I think that the discussion of your defensive line is interesting. Three highly drafted guys who are supposed to be talented, but are not getting the numbers. Is that the system? If it's because they play in a 3-4 and their job is to get guys off of linebackers, how do you explain the success of other 3-4 DEs like Seymore and JJ Watt? And why would you draft some one with the 3rd and 5th overall picks just to occupy blockers while some one else makes plays?

I don't know if Reid will go to a 4-3 or keep a 3-4, but I don't see him keeping some one around who makes $14 million and doesn't make plays, even if it's what he had been asked to do. If the defense was ranked 20th, something wasn't working. So that's why I'm trying to figure it out, in the same way that Reid is looking at it trying to figure it out.

Chiefnut, your best friend sounds like a typical Eagles fan. They all hate Reid, but they all hate just about everybody. The only Eagle who was really loved in Philadelphia was Brian Dawkins. I can't think of another player or coach since at least Reggie White that I can say that about, and I'm not even sure about him. But I can tell you guys this: they're all wrong. Andy Reid is a great coach and you guys in Kansas City are very fortunate to have him. Don't listen to the haters in Philly.

They used the same system as New England. Richard Seymore's best season was 8 sacks. He only averaged 4.5 per year. It's not like he was some kind of sack machine. There are different versions of a 3-4 defense. There's the version that the Giants run where their DEs are their pass rushers. Then, there's the New England style where the Dline is the primary run-stoppers and the LBs are the pass rushers.

Don't look at the Chiefs rankings. There's so many different factors that contribute to that ranking. Rankings aren't just black and white. The Chiefs are a very talented team. There's a reason why people were picking KC to win the division heading into the season. Give this team a QB and an offensive direction and you could very well see an Indianapolis type turnaround. The pieces are there for this Chiefs team to be super competitive. How many 2-win teams send 5-7 players to the Super Bowl? Don't let the record and rankings fool you... this team is poised for a breakout year.

FranciscoD'anconia
01-10-2013, 03:55 PM
Oh OK, Dorsey is a free agent. I doubt he'll be back then. Reid will want to clean house and bring in his own guys.

Is there a good page with salary and cap info for the Chiefs and their players? The Eagles have this page, which is awesome:

Philadelphia Eagles Salary Cap -- Current Year Cap Values (http://www.eaglescap.com/current.html)

Anyone know of anything for the Chiefs like that?

texaschief
01-10-2013, 04:29 PM
That right there was Pioli's folly. The answer is you don't draft D-Lineman who played 4-3 in college to play 3-4 in the pros with a top 5 pick. They're better served to look for 3-4 type of guys in later rounds or FA that have experience playing in the 3-4.

This statement of "it's 3-4 D-Linemans job to take up blockers" is unacceptable when referring to players taken in the top 5, and many are forgetting how Neil Smith, Bill Maas, and Dan Saleaumua were able to get consistent pressure on opposing QB's playing in the 3-4 back in the 90's.

The Chiefs played a 5-2 defense in the 90s, which is an earlier version of the 3-4. They used smaller, quicker DLinemen to create Qb pressure at each DL position. Coming out of college, Smith was 6'4 260lbs and ran a 4.5 40... please compare him to any of the guys on our current D-line. The 2012 3-4 the Chiefs ran was a completely different defense than what they ran in the 90s. To expect the guys currently on the DL to do what the guys in the 90s did isn't a fair assessment.

jap1
01-10-2013, 04:42 PM
I should also mention that we had quite a few pretty decent role players on the DL as well.
Allen Bailey (3rd round pick 2 years ago) has done ok at DE in rotation.

Ropati Pitoitua is a huge polynesian guy we picked up in FA that has done surprisingly well. He has had quite a few sacks and a few tackles for loss. He has been playing DE and started a few games when other guys were injured.

Jerrell Powe was a late round pick a couple years back and does decent in run support in rotation.

We also had Shaun Smith for a short time as our DE the last half of the season. He is a Romeo Crennel guy and has followed Crennel around a lot. Not sure if he is under contract or a free agent.

brdempsey69
01-10-2013, 04:43 PM
The Chiefs played a 5-2 defense in the 90s, which is an earlier version of the 3-4. They used smaller, quicker DLinemen to create Qb pressure at each DL position. Coming out of college, Smith was 6'4 260lbs and ran a 4.5 40... please compare him to any of the guys on our current D-line. The 2012 3-4 the Chiefs ran was a completely different defense than what they ran in the 90s. To expect the guys currently on the DL to do what the guys in the 90s did isn't a fair assessment.

It is when you consider the current guys were drafted in the top 11 -- 3 of them since 2008. If they can't rush the passer consistently, then it's a waste to take them there at those spots. JJ Watt has illustrated that. I don't care what type of so called 3-4 is being run.

I'll give a pass on Dorsey, because he was drafted to be 4-3 DT and became a victim of Pioli's folly.

Ask yourself, if the current guys do not compare to Neil Smith's ability, then why take them that high in the draft? No good reason at all.

N TX Dave
01-10-2013, 05:38 PM
Oh OK, Dorsey is a free agent. I doubt he'll be back then. Reid will want to clean house and bring in his own guys.

Is there a good page with salary and cap info for the Chiefs and their players? The Eagles have this page, which is awesome:

Philadelphia Eagles Salary Cap -- Current Year Cap Values (http://www.eaglescap.com/current.html)

Anyone know of anything for the Chiefs like that?

Go here (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/yearly/) to see the Chiefs

N TX Dave
01-10-2013, 05:47 PM
It is when you consider the current guys were drafted in the top 11 -- 3 of them since 2008. If they can't rush the passer consistently, then it's a waste to take them there at those spots. JJ Watt has illustrated that. I don't care what type of so called 3-4 is being run.

I'll give a pass on Dorsey, because he was drafted to be 4-3 DT and became a victim of Pioli's folly.

Ask yourself, if the current guys do not compare to Neil Smith's ability, then why take them that high in the draft? No good reason at all.

Those were all past management choices lets see what Reid does with them. He might get a DC that wants them to rush the QB and not fill gaps and we may have the next Watts on the team or he might cut them all. One reason Jackson is scheduled to make so much money this year is he reworked his contract last year.

texaschief
01-10-2013, 06:06 PM
It is when you consider the current guys were drafted in the top 11 -- 3 of them since 2008. If they can't rush the passer consistently, then it's a waste to take them there at those spots. JJ Watt has illustrated that. I don't care what type of so called 3-4 is being run.

I'll give a pass on Dorsey, because he was drafted to be 4-3 DT and became a victim of Pioli's folly.

Ask yourself, if the current guys do not compare to Neil Smith's ability, then why take them that high in the draft? No good reason at all.

I'm not disagreeing with you that the picks were wasted in this system. I'm not debating that at all. I just think that these guys weren't put in a position to accomplish the things YOU wanted to see from top 5 picks. I still think they're capable of doing what you'd like to see from top 5 picks. They were just doing what the coaches asked them to do... not what the fans and media expected them to do.

brdempsey69
01-10-2013, 06:29 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you that the picks were wasted in this system. I'm not debating that at all. I just think that these guys weren't put in a position to accomplish the things YOU wanted to see from top 5 picks. I still think they're capable of doing what you'd like to see from top 5 picks. They were just doing what the coaches asked them to do... not what the fans and media expected them to do.

Fair enough. Let's hope the new regime will see things differently than Pioli did ( and I believe for certain they will ) & try to get impact players at the top of the draft & solid, productive players in rounds 2 - 7. Pioli's problem was not getting impact players at the top of the draft & many less than desirable selections in later rounds.

prough91
01-10-2013, 06:32 PM
The only one that really makes me shake my head is Tyson Jackson. That was the only pick I could not at least find one reason to justify.

Eydugstr
01-10-2013, 06:57 PM
But I can tell you guys this: they're all wrong. Andy Reid is a great coach and you guys in Kansas City are very fortunate to have him. Don't listen to the haters in Philly.

It does make me feel better about having Reid when I see someone going out of their way to make a statement like that. Welcome to the sea of red. Beware of the pirates (aka raiders).

My hopes are that Reid doesn't switch to the 4-3. Every opponent in the AFC West has pretty much focused on a passing attack (Manning in Denver, Palmer in Oakland, Rivers in SD) and if you switch back to a defense with less midfield coverage, they're going to take advantage of it.

If you want to talk about Pioli's draft busts....look no further than Jon Baldwin.

Yeah Tyson Jackson hasn't impacted the way a first rounder should, but he has steadily improved. Poe wasn't expected to play until midway through the season; He wound up playing a lot more, which is saying something.

If we're going to get some help on the defense, I'd say go after another shutdown corner to give some depth back to the secondary. We'll need one regardless of whether we run 3-4 or the 4-3.

:chiefs:

FranciscoD'anconia
01-10-2013, 08:52 PM
Eydugster, whichever defensive alignment he goes with, Andy Reid values the passing game on both sides of the ball. He will focus on getting this team to learn how to throw the ball and he will focus the defense on learning how to defend the pass. They may give up a few more rushing yards, but he believes (rightly so) that it's a passing league. The teams that win, win by throwing the ball. He knows that. He knows that they will need to defend against it.

MyManHali
01-10-2013, 09:43 PM
Dorsey, Jackson, and Poe did what was asked of them. They stopped the run and kept the O-linemen off the linebackers and allowed them to make plays. Dorsey and Jackson specifically were never asked to provide pressure on the QB. Pioli and Crennel said as much when they were talking about Poe's role going into the season. Both Jackson and Dorsey showed incredible ability for making plays behind the line of scrimmage while playing in the SEC at LSU. The defensive scheme they've been playing in the last 3 or 4 years has not been conducive to their talents for making such plays. That's why you see DJ making so many plays when he shoots the gaps... he's able to make those plays because the D-linemen are doing their jobs.

That being said, I don't think Jackson has a place on a 4-3 defense and with his salary ballooning up to 14M this season, I could see a trade, release, or perhaps a re-structure coming for him.

Dorsey has all the tools to be an elite pass-rushing DT in the form of Warren Sapp or Albert Haynesworth. He just wasn't in the right system to show that ability.

Hali is still a top 5 pass rusher in this league. He didn't "lose a step." Hali was double-teamed and sometimes triple teamed EVERY week. The opposing offenses did a great job neutralizing Hali. They could afford to do that because the Chiefs rarely blitzed and didn't get pressure from anywhere other than Houston on the other side. It may have LOOKED like Hali "lost a step," but in reality, the offense couldn't stay on the field and the truth was Hali and the rest of the defense was absolutely gassed for most of the season. Put an offense who can play with a lead or at the very least give the defense a breather and you'll see the Chiefs as a top 10 or even top 5 defense. There's way too much talent on that defense for them NOT to be a dominant defense.

Hali, Johnson, Berry, Dorsey, Jackson, and Poe are all 1st round picks. Houston and Flowers SHOULD have been 1st round picks. There's a TON of talent on this defense... don't worry.


You need to tell a player he needs to put pressure on the qb?Jackson was such of a waste, no chance he is on the roster next year.

Depth is still a major problem with this defense, especially the CB position.

FranciscoD'anconia
01-10-2013, 10:04 PM
Speaking of depth, what was the injury situation like last year? For example, 9 out of 11 Eagles starters on offense were either on IR or out for an extended period this past year and the team, despite the bad record, still moved the ball reasonably well because there was some depth.

The Chiefs were 2-14. Was that due to injury? What happens when guys go down, which they inevitably will? Can you afford to lose players the caliber of Jason Peters, Desean Jackson and LeSean McCoy all at the same time, plus a bunch of other guys, and still keep ticking?

Three7s
01-10-2013, 10:12 PM
Speaking of depth, what was the injury situation like last year? For example, 9 out of 11 Eagles starters on offense were either on IR or out for an extended period this past year and the team, despite the bad record, still moved the ball reasonably well because there was some depth.

The Chiefs were 2-14. Was that due to injury? What happens when guys go down, which they inevitably will? Can you afford to lose players the caliber of Jason Peters, Desean Jackson and LeSean McCoy all at the same time, plus a bunch of other guys, and still keep ticking?
There were injuries, but nothing major. The Chiefs sucked because of the guys throwing the football.

nigeriannightmare
01-10-2013, 10:47 PM
There were injuries, but nothing major. The Chiefs sucked because of the guys throwing the football.

Okay 2 and 14 one player does not make. If brad Johnson or Trent filter can win a freaking Super Bowl we can all agree its just not one guy. Hell even the mighty Rex Grossman has been to a Super Bowl. Yes the QB position was the WEAKEST and and average QB may have squeaked us out a few more wins.

But for Christs sake even Jamaal Charles was making careless turnovers. It was just one disaster of a season. NOT ALL BUT ALOT OF THE TURNOVERS WERE THE FAULT OF THE WRS.

The discipline on this team just wasn't there. The stupid mistakes this team made. Between the turnover or the penalty most of it was due to the inept coaching staff. This was THE worst coaching staff in the league. A good coach and we have 6 wins. A good QB we make the playoffs I get it. But damn we made flat out stupid mistakes all season long. No improvement whatsoever save the D until the Denver game.

The poor qb play was still too much to overcome. But it wasn't all due to one position.

justink
01-10-2013, 11:32 PM
Your right about everything but Flowers being good he is probably a 2 or 3 cb definetly not a starter.

texaschief
01-10-2013, 11:40 PM
You need to tell a player he needs to put pressure on the qb?

Yes. Especially if his primary job is gap control and stopping the run.

Why is this so hard to understand? Y'all are all acting like a Dlineman's job is ONLY to get to the QB and THAT'S it. Let's pretend that IS their job. You've got 2 OLBs and 3 Dlinemen rushing to get to the QB. The offense decides to run a draw or screen. Now, they have a shifty RB either one on one at the 2nd level or they're in wide open space at the third level. By then, it's at least a 20 yard gain... EVERY TIME! Put Dexter McCluster one on one in the open field against the best LB in the league (insert name here) and McCluster wins EVERY time.

It would be an OCs dream to play against a defense that constantly rushed 5 players. Are you kidding me? The Chiefs usually rushed 3 guys and used the DLinemen to control the LOS. Y'all, this is football 101. Tyson Jackson wasn't drafted to be JJ Watt. Dorsey, WAS drafted to be Warren Sapp, but again, this is why I was saying a Pioli hire was bad from the beginning. This defense was built to run a 4-3. Dorsey is out of position in the 3-4 and if he ever gets to play for a 4-3 defense, you'll see what he's capable of. Tyson Jackson should've been a late first round pick. He was never valued to be a top 5 pick. But, Pioli didn't give a rat's *** about value in the draft... and this team shows it.

texaschief
01-10-2013, 11:44 PM
Okay 2 and 14 one player does not make. If brad Johnson or Trent filter can win a freaking Super Bowl we can all agree its just not one guy. Hell even the mighty Rex Grossman has been to a Super Bowl. Yes the QB position was the WEAKEST and and average QB may have squeaked us out a few more wins.

But for Christs sake even Jamaal Charles was making careless turnovers. It was just one disaster of a season. NOT ALL BUT ALOT OF THE TURNOVERS WERE THE FAULT OF THE WRS.

The discipline on this team just wasn't there. The stupid mistakes this team made. Between the turnover or the penalty most of it was due to the inept coaching staff. This was THE worst coaching staff in the league. A good coach and we have 6 wins. A good QB we make the playoffs I get it. But damn we made flat out stupid mistakes all season long. No improvement whatsoever save the D until the Denver game.

The poor qb play was still too much to overcome. But it wasn't all due to one position.

Normally, I'd agree with you... but the QBs were really horrible and the Chiefs were probably the worst team in history when it came to turnover differential. It took the team 10 weeks to accomplish their first regulation LEAD. It took them nearly 2 seasons to score a TD on their opening drive. The offense was unbelievably bad and from a play-calling standpoint, the Daboll was handcuffed by what he could call because the QBs were miserably bad.

texaschief
01-10-2013, 11:45 PM
Your right about everything but Flowers being good he is probably a 2 or 3 cb definetly not a starter.

wow... :sign0104:

jap1
01-11-2013, 01:03 AM
Speaking of depth, what was the injury situation like last year? For example, 9 out of 11 Eagles starters on offense were either on IR or out for an extended period this past year and the team, despite the bad record, still moved the ball reasonably well because there was some depth.

The Chiefs were 2-14. Was that due to injury? What happens when guys go down, which they inevitably will? Can you afford to lose players the caliber of Jason Peters, Desean Jackson and LeSean McCoy all at the same time, plus a bunch of other guys, and still keep ticking?

We had a few injuries, but nothing major. The biggest injuries came on the OL. At one point, we had a backup C (which was our starting left guard), 2nd backup G, and backup tackle in the game.

But that was not at all to blame. Bad coaching and play calling, and poor execution were all to blame.

brdempsey69
01-11-2013, 02:36 AM
Your right about everything but Flowers being good he is probably a 2 or 3 cb definetly not a starter.

Flowers?? Are you sure you are talking about the right guy? Flowers is the best cover guy that the Chiefs have in their Defensive backfield. And he's been a full-time starter for 5 seasons and a damn good one at that.

nigeriannightmare
01-11-2013, 09:14 AM
Normally, I'd agree with you... but the QBs were really horrible and the Chiefs were probably the worst team in history when it came to turnover differential. It took the team 10 weeks to accomplish their first regulation LEAD. It took them nearly 2 seasons to score a TD on their opening drive. The offense was unbelievably bad and from a play-calling standpoint, the Daboll was handcuffed by what he could call because the QBs were miserably bad.

Oh it was bad. I don't even want to know how many quarters we went without scoring a TD this season. But man every one made a mistake at the most inoppportune time.

And please tell me you aren't defending Brian daboll and his brilliant game plan to get the ball to jamaal Charles 40 times one week and 5 the next.

nigeriannightmare
01-11-2013, 09:16 AM
Quick question for you boys in the know. Why didn't we blitz more this season?

FranciscoD'anconia
01-11-2013, 10:55 AM
Yeah, let me say this about Reid and blitzing.

Reid is a fan of blitzing A LOT. Jim Johnson blitzed a ton. His successor Sean McDermidt blitzed a ton (less successful at it).

Then Reid experimented and tried this "wide 9" thing, where you're supposed to be able to get pressure without blitzing. The first year, they led the league in sacks and the second year was this past one, which was a disaster. So for the last two years they didn't blitz much, but I would expect him to go back to what used to work for him and find a guy who's gonna wanna bring it.

nigeriannightmare
01-11-2013, 12:16 PM
Yeah, let me say this about Reid and blitzing.

Reid is a fan of blitzing A LOT. Jim Johnson blitzed a ton. His successor Sean McDermidt blitzed a ton (less successful at it).

Then Reid experimented and tried this "wide 9" thing, where you're supposed to be able to get pressure without blitzing. The first year, they led the league in sacks and the second year was this past one, which was a disaster. So for the last two years they didn't blitz much, but I would expect him to go back to what used to work for him and find a guy who's gonna wanna bring it.

Good. We have guys that can bring it. Starting to get excited not gonna lie.

chiefnut
01-11-2013, 04:48 PM
and the new DC? likes the 3-4 so all we need is an ILB, CB and S to have a really solid D

ctchiefsfan
01-11-2013, 05:10 PM
but I would expect him to go back to what used to work for him and find a guy who's gonna wanna bring it.

The more you tell us about Reid, the more I like his selection as HC.

MyManHali
01-12-2013, 02:47 AM
Okay 2 and 14 one player does not make. If brad Johnson or Trent filter can win a freaking Super Bowl we can all agree its just not one guy. Hell even the mighty Rex Grossman has been to a Super Bowl. Yes the QB position was the WEAKEST and and average QB may have squeaked us out a few more wins.

But for Christs sake even Jamaal Charles was making careless turnovers. It was just one disaster of a season. NOT ALL BUT ALOT OF THE TURNOVERS WERE THE FAULT OF THE WRS.

The discipline on this team just wasn't there. The stupid mistakes this team made. Between the turnover or the penalty most of it was due to the inept coaching staff. This was THE worst coaching staff in the league. A good coach and we have 6 wins. A good QB we make the playoffs I get it. But damn we made flat out stupid mistakes all season long. No improvement whatsoever save the D until the Denver game.

The poor qb play was still too much to overcome. But it wasn't all due to one position.

A Trent Dilfer/Brad Johnson wouldn't win you a super bowl in today's NFL, it is a passing league. That is why I am thrilled we have someone who is primarily a pass heavy coach.

MyManHali
01-12-2013, 02:50 AM
Yes. Especially if his primary job is gap control and stopping the run.

Why is this so hard to understand? Y'all are all acting like a Dlineman's job is ONLY to get to the QB and THAT'S it. Let's pretend that IS their job. You've got 2 OLBs and 3 Dlinemen rushing to get to the QB. The offense decides to run a draw or screen. Now, they have a shifty RB either one on one at the 2nd level or they're in wide open space at the third level. By then, it's at least a 20 yard gain... EVERY TIME! Put Dexter McCluster one on one in the open field against the best LB in the league (insert name here) and McCluster wins EVERY time.

It would be an OCs dream to play against a defense that constantly rushed 5 players. Are you kidding me? The Chiefs usually rushed 3 guys and used the DLinemen to control the LOS. Y'all, this is football 101. Tyson Jackson wasn't drafted to be JJ Watt. Dorsey, WAS drafted to be Warren Sapp, but again, this is why I was saying a Pioli hire was bad from the beginning. This defense was built to run a 4-3. Dorsey is out of position in the 3-4 and if he ever gets to play for a 4-3 defense, you'll see what he's capable of. Tyson Jackson should've been a late first round pick. He was never valued to be a top 5 pick. But, Pioli didn't give a rat's *** about value in the draft... and this team shows it.


I find it incredibly hard to understand why you would defend such a waste of a pick. His only job is to hold his position against the run. It's not like this guy penetrated the line and got unbelievable pressure on the RB. The fact is he was taken higher than Watt and paid more money.

In the end, the pick was trash, bottomline.

Eydugstr
01-12-2013, 09:01 AM
Speaking of depth, what was the injury situation like last year? For example, 9 out of 11 Eagles starters on offense were either on IR or out for an extended period this past year and the team, despite the bad record, still moved the ball reasonably well because there was some depth.

The Chiefs were 2-14. Was that due to injury? What happens when guys go down, which they inevitably will? Can you afford to lose players the caliber of Jason Peters, Desean Jackson and LeSean McCoy all at the same time, plus a bunch of other guys, and still keep ticking?

Actually 2011 was the year we got riddled with injuries. We lost Charles, Moeaki, and Berry. 2012 we stayed fairly healthy, with the exception of Hudson. We just played like crud under some very questionable coaching.

texaschief
01-12-2013, 10:40 PM
I find it incredibly hard to understand why you would defend such a waste of a pick. His only job is to hold his position against the run. It's not like this guy penetrated the line and got unbelievable pressure on the RB. The fact is he was taken higher than Watt and paid more money.

In the end, the pick was trash, bottomline.

I'm not defending the pick. I HATED the pick. It represented HORRIBLE value for the player we were getting and what his responsibilities were going to be. Feel free to search the archives and look at my comments after the Jackson pick. Hell, look at my comments when Pioli's name was being tossed around. Everything I was saying was going to happen with a 3-4 minded Pioli, came to pass. We wasted a TON of picks when they should've continued building the 4-3 that was already in place.

I'm not defending the pick. I am defending the player. JJ Watt and Tyson Jackson aren't suppose to produce in the same fashion. Just because they "play the same position" doesn't mean they had the same responsibilities. Did Tyson Jackson represent horrible value at #3 overall? ABSOLUTELY! But just because he's not JJ Watt does not mean he has ZERO value. For what the Chiefs used him for, he was probably worth a 2nd round pick. So, if you look at the Jackson pick as the Chiefs trading their 1st round pick for absolutely nothing and then look at Jackson as a 2nd round talent... I think he's producing right about where he SHOULD be.

Just because Pioli was stupid enough to take a 2nd round talent at #3 overall does NOT mean Tyson Jackson should just be discarded... ESPECIALLY if we're going to continue running a 3-4. He still contributes at an above average level. It's not like the guy is Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell who hardly contributed to their team. He's more like Robert Gallery... not quite the LT Raiders hoped he'd be, but he still contributes at a high level on the OL. I'd like to see what Jackson could do if he's turned loose on the QB. But by Crennel's own admission, the DL was not used in that capacity.

ctchiefsfan
01-13-2013, 05:02 PM
I'm not defending the pick. I HATED the pick. It represented HORRIBLE value for the player we were getting and what his responsibilities were going to be. Feel free to search the archives and look at my comments after the Jackson pick. Hell, look at my comments when Pioli's name was being tossed around. Everything I was saying was going to happen with a 3-4 minded Pioli, came to pass. We wasted a TON of picks when they should've continued building the 4-3 that was already in place.

I'm not defending the pick. I am defending the player. JJ Watt and Tyson Jackson aren't suppose to produce in the same fashion. Just because they "play the same position" doesn't mean they had the same responsibilities. Did Tyson Jackson represent horrible value at #3 overall? ABSOLUTELY! But just because he's not JJ Watt does not mean he has ZERO value. For what the Chiefs used him for, he was probably worth a 2nd round pick. So, if you look at the Jackson pick as the Chiefs trading their 1st round pick for absolutely nothing and then look at Jackson as a 2nd round talent... I think he's producing right about where he SHOULD be.

Just because Pioli was stupid enough to take a 2nd round talent at #3 overall does NOT mean Tyson Jackson should just be discarded... ESPECIALLY if we're going to continue running a 3-4. He still contributes at an above average level. It's not like the guy is Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell who hardly contributed to their team. He's more like Robert Gallery... not quite the LT Raiders hoped he'd be, but he still contributes at a high level on the OL. I'd like to see what Jackson could do if he's turned loose on the QB. But by Crennel's own admission, the DL was not used in that capacity.

Well put! Under Pioli we have drafted a number of players far higher than we should have and because of that they have been called "Busts" when they are in fact decent players who contribute to the team at a decent level. It is not the fault of the player that a GM overestimated his value and spends too high a draft pick for him.....that kind of mistake is 100% owned by the GM.

MyManHali
01-13-2013, 11:47 PM
I'm not defending the pick. I HATED the pick. It represented HORRIBLE value for the player we were getting and what his responsibilities were going to be. Feel free to search the archives and look at my comments after the Jackson pick. Hell, look at my comments when Pioli's name was being tossed around. Everything I was saying was going to happen with a 3-4 minded Pioli, came to pass. We wasted a TON of picks when they should've continued building the 4-3 that was already in place.

I'm not defending the pick. I am defending the player. JJ Watt and Tyson Jackson aren't suppose to produce in the same fashion. Just because they "play the same position" doesn't mean they had the same responsibilities. Did Tyson Jackson represent horrible value at #3 overall? ABSOLUTELY! But just because he's not JJ Watt does not mean he has ZERO value. For what the Chiefs used him for, he was probably worth a 2nd round pick. So, if you look at the Jackson pick as the Chiefs trading their 1st round pick for absolutely nothing and then look at Jackson as a 2nd round talent... I think he's producing right about where he SHOULD be.

Just because Pioli was stupid enough to take a 2nd round talent at #3 overall does NOT mean Tyson Jackson should just be discarded... ESPECIALLY if we're going to continue running a 3-4. He still contributes at an above average level. It's not like the guy is Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell who hardly contributed to their team. He's more like Robert Gallery... not quite the LT Raiders hoped he'd be, but he still contributes at a high level on the OL. I'd like to see what Jackson could do if he's turned loose on the QB. But by Crennel's own admission, the DL was not used in that capacity.


How many pounds of fried chicken do you think Tyson Jackson ate today?

texaschief
01-14-2013, 02:04 AM
Probably not as many as Poe

Justin5772002
01-14-2013, 03:24 AM
How many pounds of fried chicken do you think Tyson Jackson ate today?

I dare u to ask him face to face