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KCWildcat3
04-08-2014, 12:16 PM
I find myself reading this board and it seems to be in such a panic. Rightfully so maybe, we got destroyed in the first off-season phase of free agency. We do have some holes primarily in depth some with more immediate needs. However if fisher, Kelce, commings, Cooper, Catapano if these guys can step up and some contribute some start and do well. How much stress does that relieve surrounding this team?

Personally I think this team is not in bad shape and you have to love the freedom and flexibility we have with our first round pick. Ya we are limited with our number of picks but the potential to land any number of players at 23 or lower if we can trade back who can immediately contribute is crazy and at the end of the day that's all you can ask for.

Bottum line we have to trust what Dorsey and Reid are doing and assume they have a plan until they prove otherwise. I'm excited for draft day because I have absolutely zero idea what te chiefs will do. However all the people that could be available I dot see very many that the chiefs could take and I would be upset because they could all contribute. It's gumna be exciting and I can't wait to see what happens.

Mongo
04-08-2014, 12:41 PM
I find myself reading this board and it seems to be in such a panic. Rightfully so maybe, we got destroyed in the first off-season phase of free agency. We do have some holes primarily in depth some with more immediate needs. However if fisher, Kelce, commings, Cooper, Catapano if these guys can step up and some contribute some start and do well. How much stress does that relieve surrounding this team?

Personally I think this team is not in bad shape and you have to love the freedom and flexibility we have with our first round pick. Ya we are limited with our number of picks but the potential to land any number of players at 23 or lower if we can trade back who can immediately contribute is crazy and at the end of the day that's all you can ask for.

Bottum line we have to trust what Dorsey and Reid are doing and assume they have a plan until they prove otherwise. I'm excited for draft day because I have absolutely zero idea what te chiefs will do. However all the people that could be available I dot see very many that the chiefs could take and I would be upset because they could all contribute. It's gumna be exciting and I can't wait to see what happens.
I admire your optimism, but you’re pinning the hopes of this team on every late round draftee becoming a solid contributor or better. When does that ever happen? I expect Fisher to continue to improve as I do Cooper. Kelce I’m hopeful for.

That doesn’t negate the instability on the OL. Two solid starters are replaced by question marks, so far. We still don’t have a starter at FS. The MLB and LE were replaced by lesser players. And we still have one of the worst WR corps in the league. It’s not enough if you want to compete with DEN.

We can hope, not trust, the Reid & Dorsey nail this and get three starters out of this draft too. It’s not likely. I have no reason to have blind faith in either, yet. Reid ran Philly into the ground and Dorsey has done nothing except work for a great organization, just like Scott Pioli, the last “GM savior”.

KCWildcat3
04-08-2014, 12:49 PM
Commings was turning heads before his injury and I don't remember what I was reading a whole back about someone talking about Cstapano being a beast. I think u also have to remember that not ever started is an all pro. It's about getting the most out of people. If we can *** a few contributors from the draft at WR, interior line, and a pass rusher I think we are gimme be just fine. Maybe not beat the Broncos but their time will run out and we will be hitting stride.

KCWildcat3
04-08-2014, 01:04 PM
If we could work out trade back with Cleveland. Grab their 2 3rd round picks. Would u feel better if we did this through the draft.

Round 1 Brandin Cooks WR
Round 3 OLB. Van Noy/ Smith
Round 3 Phillip Gaines. CB rice.
Round 3 Gabe Jackson G Miss st
Round 4 Jerad Abrederis WR
Round 5 DE.
Round 6 Clemson OT ACL guy.
Round 6 AC Leonard

The two thirds may be a stretch but if they pass on a QB at 4 they may be desperate to trade up and grab one. I think this draft adds a lot of depth in places of need. No FS Commings and Abdullah will work for now.

Seek
04-08-2014, 01:13 PM
Commings was turning heads before his injury and I don't remember what I was reading a whole back about someone talking about Cstapano being a beast. I think u also have to remember that not ever started is an all pro. It's about getting the most out of people. If we can *** a few contributors from the draft at WR, interior line, and a pass rusher I think we are gimme be just fine. Maybe not beat the Broncos but their time will run out and we will be hitting stride.

I don't want to agree with Mongo, but you are basing opinions based on what people were writing from Camp where the Chiefs promote all of their players before the season. Commings broke his colar bone the first day of practice. Any hype about him from camp was when they were in shorts. The news about Catapano was how Smart he was, for being an IVY league guy.

Remember when Boomer Grigsby was going to be our starting MLB the year we drafted him all because of talk prior to actually playing in the NFL.

Now to Counter Mongo, a lot of the people we are hoping steps up actually performed on the field. Granted it was against San Diego, but that gamed mattered for the Chargers and they played well. So there is more hope but to be completely optomistic based on other peoples opinions I can't get on board with.

Mongo
04-08-2014, 05:29 PM
I don't want to agree with Mongo, but you are basing opinions based on what people were writing from Camp where the Chiefs promote all of their players before the season. Commings broke his colar bone the first day of practice. Any hype about him from camp was when they were in shorts. The news about Catapano was how Smart he was, for being an IVY league guy.

Remember when Boomer Grigsby was going to be our starting MLB the year we drafted him all because of talk prior to actually playing in the NFL.

Now to Counter Mongo, a lot of the people we are hoping steps up actually performed on the field. Granted it was against San Diego, but that gamed mattered for the Chargers and they played well. So there is more hope but to be completely optomistic based on other peoples opinions I can't get on board with.
What's wrong with agreeing with me? ;)

Mongo
04-08-2014, 05:38 PM
If we could work out trade back with Cleveland. Grab their 2 3rd round picks. Would u feel better if we did this through the draft.

Round 1 Brandin Cooks WR
Round 3 OLB. Van Noy/ Smith
Round 3 Phillip Gaines. CB rice.
Round 3 Gabe Jackson G Miss st
Round 4 Jerad Abrederis WR
Round 5 DE.
Round 6 Clemson OT ACL guy.
Round 6 AC Leonard

The two thirds may be a stretch but if they pass on a QB at 4 they may be desperate to trade up and grab one. I think this draft adds a lot of depth in places of need. No FS Commings and Abdullah will work for now.
How do the Chiefs work a trade back to CLE, keeping an R1 and get two R3 picks? Do you mean moving from 23 to 26? They'll never get one R3 for a move like that. The difference in value is 60 points. R3.32 is 160. I realize the chart is a guideline, but that would be ridiculous, even for CLE.

matthewschiefs
04-08-2014, 07:28 PM
I admire your optimism, but you’re pinning the hopes of this team on every late round draftee becoming a solid contributor or better. When does that ever happen? I expect Fisher to continue to improve as I do Cooper. Kelce I’m hopeful for.

That doesn’t negate the instability on the OL. Two solid starters are replaced by question marks, so far. We still don’t have a starter at FS. The MLB and LE were replaced by lesser players. And we still have one of the worst WR corps in the league. It’s not enough if you want to compete with DEN.

We can hope, not trust, the Reid & Dorsey nail this and get three starters out of this draft too. It’s not likely. I have no reason to have blind faith in either, yet. Reid ran Philly into the ground and Dorsey has done nothing except work for a great organization, just like Scott Pioli, the last “GM savior”.

Ummm ok

They had a bad year Reids last year But I hardly call that running them into the ground. If that was the case they wouldn't have been back in the playoffs last year.

matthewschiefs
04-08-2014, 07:38 PM
How can no one mention Knile Davis?

He steped up in a NFL playoff game. It's not like the 2013 rookie class did nothing to help. Give them time people. It was only the start of there careers. Fisher was bad at the start of the year but after some time he progressed. There's nothing to say that draft class can't be a good one just yet.

jap1
04-08-2014, 08:05 PM
Ummm ok

They had a bad year Reids last year But I hardly call that running them into the ground. If that was the case they wouldn't have been back in the playoffs last year.

9 playoff appearances, 4 consecutive NFC championships and a Super Bowl appearance = running them into the ground.

Mongo
04-08-2014, 08:58 PM
Ummm ok

They had a bad year Reids last year But I hardly call that running them into the ground. If that was the case they wouldn't have been back in the playoffs last year.He was on a downhill trend since 2009. Some Philly fans will say he should have been let go after losing to NE in the SB.

Mongo
04-08-2014, 08:58 PM
9 playoff appearances, 4 consecutive NFC championships and a Super Bowl appearance = running them into the ground.Ancient history. What had he done for them lately?

Mongo
04-08-2014, 09:04 PM
How can no one mention Knile Davis?

He steped up in a NFL playoff game. It's not like the 2013 rookie class did nothing to help. Give them time people. It was only the start of there careers. Fisher was bad at the start of the year but after some time he progressed. There's nothing to say that draft class can't be a good one just yet.
Why is everyone's opinion based on a good performance in one game? Do we even know Davis' health going into 2014?

BTW: Davis was 18 carries for 67 yards in that game. A 3.7 YPG -- below average. Is that really "stepping up?"

matthewschiefs
04-08-2014, 09:54 PM
He was on a downhill trend since 2009. Some Philly fans will say he should have been let go after losing to NE in the SB.
Yes because Philly fans are known for being reasonable

Was it time for a change yep. But sometimes that happens in sports.
Heres an example not football but its along the same lines
Terry Francona in the last month of the season in 2011 his red sox team fell apart. He didn't forget how to manage it was just time for a change. When he went to a new team (thankfully to my team) he took that team from 68 wins to 92 and a playoff birth the first playoff birth in 7 years. Sometimes a change is in order. It has happened a lot of times in sports


Why is everyone's opinion based on a good performance in one game? Do we even know Davis' health going into 2014?

BTW: Davis was 18 carries for 67 yards in that game. A 3.7 YPG -- below average. Is that really "stepping up?"

Yes because he did nothing before then. The fact is he just wasn't getting that many carries because of Charles. But he was helping the team in the return game. He did things to help in more then 1 game. But why mention that?

And why Mention his 2 tds in the playoff game? It's not like that helped or anything.
come on have an once of patience

Seek
04-09-2014, 08:23 AM
How can no one mention Knile Davis?

He steped up in a NFL playoff game. It's not like the 2013 rookie class did nothing to help. Give them time people. It was only the start of there careers. Fisher was bad at the start of the year but after some time he progressed. There's nothing to say that draft class can't be a good one just yet.

I don't think anyone is questioning the RB position this coming season so he is not included in the MUST step up hopes.

ctchiefsfan
04-09-2014, 08:24 AM
9 playoff appearances, 4 consecutive NFC championships and a Super Bowl appearance = running them into the ground.

How many here would really complain if Reid "ran the Chiefs into the ground" in a similar fashion?

Matter of fact, the last time we got "run into the ground" in a similar fashion was under Marty and if I recall correctly at the end of the 2012 season there were a lot of people wishing Marty would come back and "run us into the ground" again.

Seek
04-09-2014, 08:49 AM
I read some where a year ago that Andy Reid's decline was more related to his situations with the Philly ownership, basically forcing him to keep people he didn't want to, such as Michael Vick. I have heard him more than once say he is so much happier in the KC just coaching leading me to believe that he did not like business side which is why they hand picked Dorsey. A guy Andy can work well with.

Eydugstr
04-09-2014, 09:08 AM
9 playoff appearances, 4 consecutive NFC championships and a Super Bowl appearance = running them into the ground.

Yeah...If that's what you call being run into the ground, I'm pretty cool with being run into the ground. Anyone here want to go back and do things the Pioli or Herm Edwards way?

ctchiefsfan
04-09-2014, 10:10 AM
I read some where a year ago that Andy Reid's decline was more related to his situations with the Philly ownership, basically forcing him to keep people he didn't want to, such as Michael Vick. I have heard him more than once say he is so much happier in the KC just coaching leading me to believe that he did not like business side which is why they hand picked Dorsey. A guy Andy can work well with.

I think we all have read a lot about why Reid was happy to get out of Philthy and happy to come to KC. The feeling I got from what I read was that based on his success, Reid had been put in a position where he was pretty much doing dual duty as a sort of "almost" GM and also Head Coach. And he didn't do so well at it. Wouldn't be the first time someone got promoted beyond their desire or capability. In my life I have seen it many times and it has happened to me in jobs I've had. You just get given more responsibility than you can handle and wind up not doing any of them very well despite working your ash off to try to do a good job. A man has to know his limitations.

Reid is a very good HC IMO who excels at getting the very best out of his players. GM? Meah.....I love him as a HC, wouldn't want him as GM.

Dorsey on the other hand seems to have an excellent reputation for finding talent and managing a scouting operation. I do have my doubts at how good he is at the business side of football--negotiating contracts, manipulating the salary cap etc. Not saying he is not good at it, just that I think his talent in this area is unproven.

But I'm pretty confident that we have an EXCELLENT HC that is truly thrilled to be back to simply coaching football players and doing what he has done best in the past. And he trusts Dorsey and is happy to work with him. It's a good match.

Of course, Head Coaches do get outdated. We've seen it with Hank Stram, Tom Landry and a host of others over the years. The game simply passed them by. They kept doing things as they always had, but the game had changed and they didn't adapt. I don't think Reid is there yet. I think he has one more good 10 year run in him with a good shot at a Super Bowl win.

If Dorsey gets the talent, Reid will get the wins.

Oh.....and Seek.....I'm not disagreeing with what you said. Just putting my own interpretation on it.

Mongo
04-09-2014, 11:27 AM
Yes because Philly fans are known for being reasonable

Was it time for a change yep. But sometimes that happens in sports.
Heres an example not football but its along the same lines
Terry Francona in the last month of the season in 2011 his red sox team fell apart. He didn't forget how to manage it was just time for a change. When he went to a new team (thankfully to my team) he took that team from 68 wins to 92 and a playoff birth the first playoff birth in 7 years. Sometimes a change is in order. It has happened a lot of times in sports

Reasonable? How long were Philly fans supposed to wait? The lunatic fringe in Philly gives the group as a whole a bad name. They are some of the most knowledgeable sports fans in the country. Reid was given control of the operations, got desperate after so many close failures and went on free agent spending sprees that led to his demise. He ran the team into the ground. Ask an Eagles fan.

Along the way fans grew tired of his self-deprecating, say nothing, press conferences after losses. They grew tired of hearing how it was “his fault” and finally agreed, while asking “What are you going to do about it?”

Most Chiefs fans said the Chiefs were talented and were only credible leadership and quarterbacking away from contention. So, Reid may have just been in the right place at the right time.

As for forgetting how to coach, most times it’s more a case of going as far as you’re going to go. A change helps a coach in other sports. Very few have won a SB on a second team. The list shortens when you eliminate those who have been in the league more than 10 years. NFL coaches have a shelf life – overall, not just in one city.

Keep that in mind before glorifying Dandy Andy.


Yes because he did nothing before then. The fact is he just wasn't getting that many carries because of Charles. But he was helping the team in the return game. He did things to help in more then 1 game. But why mention that?

And why Mention his 2 tds in the playoff game? It's not like that helped or anything.
come on have an once of patience
Patience? No, its called reality. I’m new to this board, but not to Chiefs chat. The most common thing I’ve noticed is that Chiefs fans drastically and desperately overrate the value of their players. For every Jared Allen or Brandon Carr there are scores of Boomer Grigsbys, Jessie Haynes, Bobby Sippios that the fan base just knew was about to be a breakout player.

Now we have “The Beast” Mike Catapano, FS savior Sanders Commings, Will Shields II after a game, Rishaw Johnson, and pre-season 2014 Comeback Player of the Year, A.J. Jenkins. I’ll believe it when I see it. I thought Missouri was the “Show Me State”

Kniles Davis barely had enough moments to make a one minute highlight reel.

brdempsey69
04-09-2014, 11:57 AM
Patience? No, its called reality. I’m new to this board, but not to Chiefs chat. The most common thing I’ve noticed is that Chiefs fans drastically and desperately overrate the value of their players. For every Jared Allen or Brandon Carr there are scores of Boomer Grigsbys, Jessie Haynes, Bobby Sippios that the fan base just knew was about to be a breakout player.



That smacks of two particular players that too many Chiefs fans have overrated the past 4 years & talked all this nonsense like the Chiefs franchise revolved around these two players. Can you guess who they are?

I'll give you a hint -- their initials are B.A. and E.B.

Seek
04-09-2014, 01:03 PM
Oh.....and Seek.....I'm not disagreeing with what you said. Just putting my own interpretation on it.

I didn't think you were disagreeing, fact I think you supported my point that Reid's decline in Philly was not related specifically to him as a HC. While he may have played part to it, I did not believe it was his coaching. It was players like Michael Vick trying to compete with Matt Cassel as turn over king.

I was not much of fan of his hiring but fact of the matter we were a play off team last year. Pending some key injuries the Chiefs dang near won a play off game on the road. I have no reason to complain about Reid or Dorsey given their success in one year.

matthewschiefs
04-09-2014, 01:03 PM
Reasonable? How long were Philly fans supposed to wait? The lunatic fringe in Philly gives the group as a whole a bad name. They are some of the most knowledgeable sports fans in the country. Reid was given control of the operations, got desperate after so many close failures and went on free agent spending sprees that led to his demise. He ran the team into the ground. Ask an Eagles fan.

Along the way fans grew tired of his self-deprecating, say nothing, press conferences after losses. They grew tired of hearing how it was “his fault” and finally agreed, while asking “What are you going to do about it?”

Most Chiefs fans said the Chiefs were talented and were only credible leadership and quarterbacking away from contention. So, Reid may have just been in the right place at the right time.

As for forgetting how to coach, most times it’s more a case of going as far as you’re going to go. A change helps a coach in other sports. Very few have won a SB on a second team. The list shortens when you eliminate those who have been in the league more than 10 years. NFL coaches have a shelf life – overall, not just in one city.

Keep that in mind before glorifying Dandy Andy.

I will ask again if he ran them into the ground why did they go to the playoffs so quickly. Shouldn't they just be starting there rebuilding?

I am not most Chiefs fans. Was I calling out Romeo in 2012 YEP. I was. But while so many were pointing to the offense I was the one sitting here saying the defense wasn't much better. I have been saying since the end of this season that our defense is SOFT. It wasn't just go get a new QB and coach and you can start to win. Reid is a part of that. Now will Reid lead the team to the super bowl I don't know. I don't know that he can't I just know what I saw he took a 2-14 team to the playoffs the next year. There's nothing to :sign0053: about with Reid at this point in time. When there is you bet I will just like I did with Romeo. I just haven't seen anything to be upset with Reid after year 1. Year 2 could be a different story.

And I will again agree it was time for a change in Philly. But running them into the ground is a very large overstatment.


Patience? No, its called reality. I’m new to this board, but not to Chiefs chat. The most common thing I’ve noticed is that Chiefs fans drastically and desperately overrate the value of their players. For every Jared Allen or Brandon Carr there are scores of Boomer Grigsbys, Jessie Haynes, Bobby Sippios that the fan base just knew was about to be a breakout player.

Now we have “The Beast” Mike Catapano, FS savior Sanders Commings, Will Shields II after a game, Rishaw Johnson, and pre-season 2014 Comeback Player of the Year, A.J. Jenkins. I’ll believe it when I see it. I thought Missouri was the “Show Me State”

Kniles Davis barely had enough moments to make a one minute highlight reel.

If you want to talk about reality then you would know that it's reality that very few rookies come in and play like all pros on day 1. That's reality. NFL players have take time to grow into the players they will be more often then not.

And what do you expect from Davis being Charle's backup him to be getting 20 carries running for 1,000 yards? Charles didn't do much his rookie year either man what a bust he was right? Patience yes have some. There's a difference in having patience and saying you have the next great thing. I'm not saying we have the great thing I'm just saying how about showing the slightest sign of patience before jumping all over a draft class.

And I for one thought Carr was overrated. I still think that. I mean it's not like he's doing much in Dallas.

Mongo
04-09-2014, 01:29 PM
How many here would really complain if Reid "ran the Chiefs into the ground" in a similar fashion?

Matter of fact, the last time we got "run into the ground" in a similar fashion was under Marty and if I recall correctly at the end of the 2012 season there were a lot of people wishing Marty would come back and "run us into the ground" again.
I suppose if you're okay with hamburger or even sirloin. I want porterhouse.

chief31
04-09-2014, 01:32 PM
Why is everyone's opinion based on a good performance in one game? Do we even know Davis' health going into 2014?

BTW: Davis was 18 carries for 67 yards in that game. A 3.7 YPG -- below average. Is that really "stepping up?"

Add the 33 yards receiving and maybe mention the two TDs, and it sounds like a 100 yard day with a pair of TDs.

Who WOULDN'T call that stepping up? At least for THAT game?

I agree on the whole notion that we don't know we have a gem in this guy, or so many others. But I would call his performance in the playoff game a definite "step up".

Mongo
04-09-2014, 02:01 PM
I will ask again if he ran them into the ground why did they go to the playoffs so quickly. Shouldn't they just be starting there rebuilding?

They are rebuilding. Their success is attributed to Chip Kelly and the demise of the rest of the division. Kelly used Shady McCoy far more intelligently than Reid did. And we see that with Charles. Reid never establishes a run game except to close a game out.



I am not most Chiefs fans. Was I calling out Romeo in 2012 YEP. I was. But while so many were pointing to the offense I was the one sitting here saying the defense wasn't much better. I have been saying since the end of this season that our defense is SOFT. It wasn't just go get a new QB and coach and you can start to win. Reid is a part of that. Now will Reid lead the team to the super bowl I don't know. I don't know that he can't I just know what I saw he took a 2-14 team to the playoffs the next year. There's nothing to about with Reid at this point in time. When there is you bet I will just like I did with Romeo. I just haven't seen anything to be upset with Reid after year 1. Year 2 could be a different story.

And I will again agree it was time for a change in Philly. But running them into the ground is a very large overstatment.

No it isn’t. Again, ask an Eagles fan. Review the downward slide at the end of his time there. Facts are facts.

As for Crennel, it was easy for everyone to “call him out” at the end of a 2 win season. What was your opinion after 2011? Did you want him as HC? I didn’t because he was a bum and was told I was wrong. Just like I didn’t want Herman Edwards and was told I was wrong.

As you can tell I didn’t want Reid either. He’s better than the aforementioned. I’m of the opinion that proven coaches are just that. Reid is B grade and will not get better. He will get KC to a respectable level quickly and taper off, just like he did in Philly. Hopefully mgmt recognizes when that happens and pulls the plug and hands the ball to someone to get this team over the top.

I’d hire 100 Todd Haleys groping to get the next Bill Belichek before ever hiring a proven Andy Reid.



If you want to talk about reality then you would know that it's reality that very few rookies come in and play like all pros on day 1. That's reality. NFL players have take time to grow into the players they will be more often then not.

And what do you expect from Davis being Charle's backup him to be getting 20 carries running for 1,000 yards? Charles didn't do much his rookie year either man what a bust he was right? Patience yes have some. There's a difference in having patience and saying you have the next great thing. I'm not saying we have the great thing I'm just saying how about showing the slightest sign of patience before jumping all over a draft class.

And I for one thought Carr was overrated. I still think that. I mean it's not like he's doing much in Dallas.
Fair enough. Kniles Davis is of no concern to me anyway. I just called you out for overvaluing his performance. This team is sunk if Charles is lost, because his talent cannot be replaced by anyone.

As for Carr, his career has far exceeded the reasonable expectations of his draft status. It’s rare. That’s the point. When people start thinking that you can move a bunch of third day draftees, UDFA, and waiver wire garbage into several key spots on the team and not feel pain, well, they just aren’t being realistic.

Unfortunately, as per your assertion, the Chiefs have funneled themselves into a very tough 2014 campaign. They are reliant on having 2-3 rookies step immediately into key roles impatiently since the talent on this team has diminished since last year. I hope it works out.

Mongo
04-09-2014, 02:04 PM
That smacks of two particular players that too many Chiefs fans have overrated the past 4 years & talked all this nonsense like the Chiefs franchise revolved around these two players. Can you guess who they are?

I'll give you a hint -- their initials are B.A. and E.B.
The difference is the universe agrees about those players.

brdempsey69
04-09-2014, 02:19 PM
The difference is the universe agrees about those players.

What universe? The universe of hero-worshiping fantasy football kiddies? Got news for you, a great many that have been following the Chiefs for a long time know differently. And it's not an opinion because I've seen the evidence manifest itself on the football field time and again. Both those players have done or did very little to change the Chiefs fortunes since they were drafted.

matthewschiefs
04-09-2014, 02:24 PM
They are rebuilding. Their success is attributed to Chip Kelly and the demise of the rest of the division. Kelly used Shady McCoy far more intelligently than Reid did. And we see that with Charles. Reid never establishes a run game except to close a game out.


No it isn’t. Again, ask an Eagles fan. Review the downward slide at the end of his time there. Facts are facts.

It depends on your view of running them into the ground I guess. His low point was his last year there at 4 wins. A lot like us they had more talent then a 4 win team in 2012 but like I said it just wasn't working anymore there. His track record of all the playoff years and wining in the playoffs can't be ignored. I don't see one terrible year as running them into the ground sorry.


As for Crennel, it was easy for everyone to “call him out” at the end of a 2 win season. What was your opinion after 2011? Did you want him as HC? I didn’t because he was a bum and was told I was wrong. Just like I didn’t want Herman Edwards and was told I was wrong.
Boy I wish you were here in 2012 because A lot of people didn't want to here anything but the QB holding this team back. In fact in one of my many rants either here or on the Chiefscrowd facebook I was told that I myself had to be Matt Cassel for saying he wasn't the biggest thing holding this team back. So it wasn't that easy for everyone.

I wasn't thrilled about Romeo being the guy. But I always am of the mind not to pretend they fail until they fail. I didn't want Herm either but I gave him a chance. He failed and I was sure to talk about him failing.



Fair enough. Kniles Davis is of no concern to me anyway. I just called you out for overvaluing his performance. This team is sunk if Charles is lost, because his talent cannot be replaced by anyone.

As for Carr, his career has far exceeded the reasonable expectations of his draft status. It’s rare. That’s the point. When people start thinking that you can move a bunch of third day draftees, UDFA, and waiver wire garbage into several key spots on the team and not feel pain, well, they just aren’t being realistic.

Unfortunately, as per your assertion, the Chiefs have funneled themselves into a very tough 2014 campaign. They are reliant on having 2-3 rookies step immediately into key roles impatiently since the talent on this team has diminished since last year. I hope it works out.

All I said was Davis steped up in the playoffs. Scoring 2 tds as a rookie I would call stepping up. You seem very down on the 2013 rookie class but you didn't even mention his pick. Davis was the backup to Charles he didn't do a bad job. Did you know he scored more tds then Charles did in his rookie year. All I'm saying is give this class a chance to develop into the players they are going to be before writting them off. Before game 1 of year 2 is just not the time to do that.

And I will again ask what exactly did this team really lose. The "best player" we lost was Albert who A. Wasn't even able to play every game and B. Wasn't exactly great. Yes he went to the pro bowl but that's about as waterdowned as you can get these days. There's a reason most people don't care about the pro bowl these days.

doobs_05
04-09-2014, 02:26 PM
What universe? The universe of hero-worshiping fantasy football kiddies? Got news for you, a great many that have been following the Chiefs for a long time know differently. And it's not an opinion because I've seen the evidence manifest itself on the football field time and again. Both those players have done or did very little to change the Chiefs fortunes since they were drafted.


there is fantasy football with OL and Defensive Players?

brdempsey69
04-09-2014, 02:27 PM
there is fantasy football with OL and Defensive Players?

Defensive players, yes. O-Lineman no.

ctchiefsfan
04-09-2014, 02:30 PM
I didn't think you were disagreeing, fact I think you supported my point that Reid's decline in Philly was not related specifically to him as a HC. While he may have played part to it, I did not believe it was his coaching. It was players like Michael Vick trying to compete with Matt Cassel as turn over king.

Glad you understood my intent. You know how it is....sometimes the poster's intent and how the reader interprets don't exactly coincide.




I was not much of fan of his hiring but fact of the matter we were a play off team last year. Pending some key injuries the Chiefs dang near won a play off game on the road. I have no reason to complain about Reid or Dorsey given their success in one year.

Exactly. I had my "ANDY!!!! WTF were you thinking?" moments last year, but I felt he did an outstanding job last season despite a few WTF moments. Perfect? No. But damned good none-the-less. I was especially pleased with how the offense developed over the last 8 games. Reid is supposed to be good at Offense and our offense started to look pretty good the last 8 games. We have what appears to be a much tougher schedule this season and with the cap space problem and missing a 2cond round pick, I expect our best hope this season is a wildcard but I can live with that. We will have a lot of compensatory picks next year and of course after the last many years I'd view a playoff win as a HUGE accomplishment. I view last season as a HUGE accomplishment and so long as we don't suffer a complete meltdown next year then as far as I am concerned Reid/Dorsey have earned themselves at least 2 more seasons at the helm. All in all, I feel that with Reid/Dorsey we are heading in the right direction.

ctchiefsfan
04-09-2014, 02:45 PM
Reasonable? How long were Philly fans supposed to wait? The lunatic fringe in Philly gives the group as a whole a bad name. They are some of the most knowledgeable sports fans in the country. Reid was given control of the operations, got desperate after so many close failures and went on free agent spending sprees that led to his demise. He ran the team into the ground. Ask an Eagles fan.

Along the way fans grew tired of his self-deprecating, say nothing, press conferences after losses. They grew tired of hearing how it was “his fault” and finally agreed, while asking “What are you going to do about it?”

Most Chiefs fans said the Chiefs were talented and were only credible leadership and quarterbacking away from contention. So, Reid may have just been in the right place at the right time.

As for forgetting how to coach, most times it’s more a case of going as far as you’re going to go. A change helps a coach in other sports. Very few have won a SB on a second team. The list shortens when you eliminate those who have been in the league more than 10 years. NFL coaches have a shelf life – overall, not just in one city.

Keep that in mind before glorifying Dandy Andy.

Mongo.....I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you. I don't think I am glorifying Andy Reid when I say that he got one hell of a lot more out of our players than any other HC did in the last 10 years. Just by what he did last year I think he earned at least 2 more years as head coach unless we suffer a complete meltdown this year.

Mongo
04-09-2014, 02:52 PM
What universe? The universe of hero-worshiping fantasy football kiddies? Got news for you, a great many that have been following the Chiefs for a long time know differently. And it's not an opinion because I've seen the evidence manifest itself on the football field time and again. Both those players have done or did very little to change the Chiefs fortunes since they were drafted.
A great many? Maybe the nine of you can get a softball team together. ;) Agree to disagree. Move on.

ctchiefsfan
04-09-2014, 02:54 PM
I suppose if you're okay with hamburger or even sirloin. I want porterhouse.

We went from "assorted scraps" to sirloin last year. That's a fact. We've lost some pieces this year, but I look for us to stay at sirloin. With a lot of compensatory picks next draft, I expect us to move towards Porterhouse and then to Filet Mignon. Did you really expect us to go from 2-14 to Super Bowl winners in 1-2 years? Nobody is that silly.

Mongo
04-09-2014, 02:58 PM
Mongo.....I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you. I don't think I am glorifying Andy Reid when I say that he got one hell of a lot more out of our players than any other HC did in the last 10 years. Just by what he did last year I think he earned at least 2 more years as head coach unless we suffer a complete meltdown this year.
Fair enough. It's not really saying much given his competition, is it? He'll be here 3 more years unless the wheels fall off completely. They shouldn't.

ctchiefsfan
04-09-2014, 03:12 PM
I’d hire 100 Todd Haleys groping to get the next Bill Belichek before ever hiring a proven Andy Reid.

Please don't say stuff like that. I hate it when I puke on my keyboard.


Unfortunately, as per your assertion, the Chiefs have funneled themselves into a very tough 2014 campaign. They are reliant on having 2-3 rookies step immediately into key roles impatiently since the talent on this team has diminished since last year. I hope it works out.

Perhaps. But how were we to avoid that? We simply didn't have the money to keep the Free Agents we lost. Those are cold, hard facts. Sometimes you don't have to like getting fu**** up the ash but just have to accept it. Losing the Free Agents we lost is not the fault of Reid/Dorsey. It's not even the fault of King Carl or Pioli. It is the salary cap.

But I think Reid/Dorsey are taking the buttstabbing that was inevitable and working intelligently to build a real competitor while still giving us a chance of being in the playoff mix. I can't ask a lot more from that from a coach or GM.

Mongo
04-09-2014, 03:27 PM
Boy I wish you were here in 2012 because A lot of people didn't want to here anything but the QB holding this team back. In fact in one of my many rants either here or on the Chiefscrowd facebook I was told that I myself had to be Matt Cassel for saying he wasn't the biggest thing holding this team back. So it wasn't that easy for everyone.

I wasn't thrilled about Romeo being the guy. But I always am of the mind not to pretend they fail until they fail. I didn't want Herm either but I gave him a chance. He failed and I was sure to talk about him failing.

Yep. I’m used to not being very popular on Chiefs boards. I’m an anti-Homer jaded by 44 years of futility. A franchise that hasn’t won a playoff game in 21 years doesn’t deserve faith or trust. Decisions like hiring Herm and Crennel are why. It was obvious to me. Why not them? I know Reid will fare better. I want a SB in my lifetime. I don’t think Reid is the guy to do it.



And I will again ask what exactly did this team really lose. The "best player" we lost was Albert who A. Wasn't even able to play every game and B. Wasn't exactly great. Yes he went to the pro bowl but that's about as waterdowned as you can get these days. There's a reason most people don't care about the pro bowl these days.
Albert doesn’t bother me because I knew he was gone the minute Eric Fisher was drafted. They should have cut him then.
What bothers me is that I can’t name one player replaced by a better alternative. Can you?

ctchiefsfan
04-09-2014, 03:28 PM
He'll be here 3 more years unless the wheels fall off completely. They shouldn't.

Exactly.

Lemme tell you what I expect from Reid and what I hope for.

1) I expect he will get us back to where we were under Marty. Almost constant playoff appearances.

2) I expect he will get us a couple of playoff wins.

3) I hope he will get us a Super Bowl appearance.

He did those things for Philthy and I honestly believe he can do it for the Chiefs.

If that is not enough to make you happy then you will probably never be satisfied.

This past year we went into the playoffs with what I felt was an EXCELLENT chance of winning a playoff game and an slim shot at making the Super Bowl. That is more than any Chiefs coach has accomplished in a very damned long time.

So yeah...Andy Reid is aces in my book right now. Next year is going to be tougher because of the schedule, but I can live with that. Andy Reid EARNED a multi-year run with what he did last year.

brdempsey69
04-09-2014, 04:41 PM
A great many? Maybe the nine of you can get a softball team together. ;) Agree to disagree. Move on.

Guess again. The numbers are greater than you think. Very few thought Albert was worth top-5 LT money that he wanted, because of the fact that he wasn't. Berry hasn't been the impact player that many thought he would be, in fact, he's had very minimal impact and he's not worth the 10 mill a year that he's getting. He's getting paid more than JC and Alex are and he shouldn't be. That is not an opinion, that is a stone cold fact. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing to anything, because that isn't an opinion, that is a stark reality. Former KC Star writer, Kent Babb called Berry the most overrated player in the game & he's speaking the truth whether anyone likes it or not.





Albert doesn’t bother me because I knew he was gone the minute Eric Fisher was drafted. They should have cut him then.
What bothers me is that I can’t name one player replaced by a better alternative. Can you?


I can. 1) Albert -- Fisher or Stephenson 2) Lewis -- ANYBODY.

Eydugstr
04-09-2014, 05:17 PM
I will ask again if he ran them into the ground why did they go to the playoffs so quickly. Shouldn't they just be starting there rebuilding?

I am not most Chiefs fans. Was I calling out Romeo in 2012 YEP. I was. But while so many were pointing to the offense I was the one sitting here saying the defense wasn't much better. I have been saying since the end of this season that our defense is SOFT. It wasn't just go get a new QB and coach and you can start to win. Reid is a part of that. Now will Reid lead the team to the super bowl I don't know. I don't know that he can't I just know what I saw he took a 2-14 team to the playoffs the next year. There's nothing to :sign0053: about with Reid at this point in time. When there is you bet I will just like I did with Romeo. I just haven't seen anything to be upset with Reid after year 1. Year 2 could be a different story.

And I will again agree it was time for a change in Philly. But running them into the ground is a very large overstatment.



If you want to talk about reality then you would know that it's reality that very few rookies come in and play like all pros on day 1. That's reality. NFL players have take time to grow into the players they will be more often then not.

And what do you expect from Davis being Charle's backup him to be getting 20 carries running for 1,000 yards? Charles didn't do much his rookie year either man what a bust he was right? Patience yes have some. There's a difference in having patience and saying you have the next great thing. I'm not saying we have the great thing I'm just saying how about showing the slightest sign of patience before jumping all over a draft class.

And I for one thought Carr was overrated. I still think that. I mean it's not like he's doing much in Dallas.

Also take into account, with Reid's offense, it was 60% pass 40% run. Charles didn't have a lot of opportunities to begin with, just made the most of what he got. Which meant even less for Kniles Davis.

Eydugstr
04-09-2014, 06:14 PM
As for Crennel, it was easy for everyone to “call him out” at the end of a 2 win season. What was your opinion after 2011? Did you want him as HC? I didn’t because he was a bum and was told I was wrong. Just like I didn’t want Herman Edwards and was told I was wrong.

A lot of people were uneasy with the Crennel signing before the 2012 started. But at that time a lot of coaches wouldn't interview with the Chiefs because of Pioli. And yeah, when a coach goes on TV saying he's going to make a player stand by him as punishment for fumbling, it makes it really easy to call him out.

As you can tell I didn’t want Reid either. He’s better than the aforementioned. I’m of the opinion that proven coaches are just that. Reid is B grade and will not get better. He will get KC to a respectable level quickly and taper off, just like he did in Philly. Hopefully mgmt recognizes when that happens and pulls the plug and hands the ball to someone to get this team over the top.

I’d hire 100 Todd Haleys groping to get the next Bill Belichek before ever hiring a proven Andy Reid.

Drugs. Are. Bad.
D
Fair enough. Kniles Davis is of no concern to me anyway. I just called you out for overvaluing his performance. This team is sunk if Charles is lost, because his talent cannot be replaced by anyone.

Going by what I saw in the high-scoring playoff game against Indy, I'd have to disagree. The fans hearts sank when JC got yanked. But that offense, Davis included, didn't give up.

As for Carr, his career has far exceeded the reasonable expectations of his draft status. It’s rare. That’s the point. When people start thinking that you can move a bunch of third day draftees, UDFA, and waiver wire garbage into several key spots on the team and not feel pain, well, they just aren’t being realistic.

Unfortunately, as per your assertion, the Chiefs have funneled themselves into a very tough 2014 campaign. They are reliant on having 2-3 rookies step immediately into key roles impatiently since the talent on this team has diminished since last year. I hope it works out.

Such negativity...Guess we should all just pack up, go home & become soccer fans? Forget it.

chief31
04-10-2014, 07:59 AM
Again, ask an Eagles fan. Review the downward slide at the end of his time there. Facts are facts.



Facts are facts. But opinions are not facts. And the opinions of Eagles fans should be viewed differently.:fan_wave2:

brdempsey69
04-10-2014, 11:11 AM
Facts are facts. But opinions are not facts. And the opinions of Eagles fans should be viewed differently.:fan_wave2:

The obvious question is, what for does one care about what happened with Reid in Philly? It's what happens in KC that counts, now.

I had said last year about Alex Smith that I didn't care about what happened with Smith in SF, because it's what Alex does in KC that counts, now.

And both Reid and Smith have gotten off to a respectable start in KC.

matthewschiefs
04-10-2014, 01:06 PM
Such negativity...Guess we should all just pack up, go home & become soccer fans? Forget it.

I guess we should

I'm still waiting for someone anyone to tell me what exactly we lost that was just so great. We let some nice players go but no all stars. We brought in guys who while they won't be all stars they won't be asked to be. And we STILL HAVE THE DRAFT to get better. The rookies from last year should progress some. I don't see anything to be so upset about with this team. And this is the offseasons we are going to have to get use to. I've said before Dorsey as a gm will either be a success of a failure by how he drafts.

Eydugstr
04-10-2014, 04:09 PM
I guess we should

I'm still waiting for someone anyone to tell me what exactly we lost that was just so great. We let some nice players go but no all stars. We brought in guys who while they won't be all stars they won't be asked to be. And we STILL HAVE THE DRAFT to get better. The rookies from last year should progress some. I don't see anything to be so upset about with this team. And this is the offseasons we are going to have to get use to. I've said before Dorsey as a gm will either be a success of a failure by how he drafts.


Re-quoted for truth. Talent-wise I thought the best two we lost were McCluster and Schwartz. But even with that in mind it's not like the sky is falling, and in 2015 we'll get at least 3 or 4 extra draft picks (Good excuse to rebuild the secondary...). It's real easy to look over at Denver, who's spending money hand over fist to "win now", and get envious because we can only spend pennies in comparison.

Justin5772002
04-10-2014, 08:43 PM
there is fantasy football with OL and Defensive Players?
E.B.? In Fantasy Football Berry DID score many points last seasons for the chiefs defense last season. He's a solid safety. Not the best, but certainly nowhere near the worst!

KCWildcat3
04-11-2014, 10:18 AM
Atleast in the year we need multiple players to provide quality playing time through the draft it was this year. There will be quality talent on into the undrafted phase of the draft. We can find quality talent and lots of it this year. That's a bright side.

Mongo
04-11-2014, 11:26 AM
Such negativity...Guess we should all just pack up, go home & become soccer fans? Forget it.
It reality, not negativity. We'll see. If you're going to base your opinion off of one game where the Indy offense was a first half turnover machine, so be it. I suppose you call that "optimism." I call it irrational. Enjoy the kool-aid.

Yes, drugs are bad. However, you may need some before the Reid regime ends. Before you scoff, name the coaches who have won Super Bowls in their second stints as HC. Then from that list point out the ones (one?) who did it after being in the league 10+ years. I sure you believe it's statistical "voodoo mumbo jumbo." Coaches get stale.

History/Odds are highly against Andy Reid winning a SB in KC. You may not care what Reid did in Philly, but as history as shown, if you choose to ignore it, you are bound to repeat it.

brdempsey69
04-11-2014, 11:50 AM
........ Before you scoff, name the coaches who have won Super Bowls in their second stints as HC. .......
.

Don Shula
Dick Vermeil
Tom Coughlin
Jon Gruden
Pete Carroll
Bill Belichick
Tony Dungy

Not sure what having 10+ years has to do with anything.

Mongo
04-11-2014, 12:15 PM
Re-quoted for truth. Talent-wise I thought the best two we lost were McCluster and Schwartz. But even with that in mind it's not like the sky is falling, and in 2015 we'll get at least 3 or 4 extra draft picks (Good excuse to rebuild the secondary...). It's real easy to look over at Denver, who's spending money hand over fist to "win now", and get envious because we can only spend pennies in comparison.
Its not about DEN and the money they've spent. Every player who has left has been replaced, thus far, by a lesser one. And some seem to think the draft will correct all of that. It won't.

ctchiefsfan
04-11-2014, 12:15 PM
Before you scoff, name the coaches who have won Super Bowls in their second stints as HC. Then from that list point out the ones (one?) who did it after being in the league 10+ years. I sure you believe it's statistical "voodoo mumbo jumbo." Coaches get stale.

Yes they do. Some get completely stale to the game. Some others get stale to a team but go on to have respectable careers with other teams. Did Reid get stale at Philthy? Doesn't seem to be much doubt about that. Is he stale to the game? That is yet to be determined. However, his performance last year would seem to make that less likely. But in the end whether he is completely stale to the game of football will not be determined by this year's performance any more than it was determined by last year's performance. The thing that is certain--at least in my mind-- is that by this past year's performance Reid got a lot more out of players than either RC or TH did. And for me at least that bought him a MINIMUM of 2-3 more years. Personally, unless the next 2 years are complete meltdowns I think Reid deserves AT LEAST 3 more years. We may not have been as good as our record this past year but we were CERTAINLY a lot better than we were in 2012. And I attribute that mostly to Reid. It was Reid who wanted Alex Smith and it was Reid who got a lot more from our players than previous coaches did. It's pssible that Reid is stale to the game. But after this past year only a real pessimist could state with certainty that he is.

I mean c'mon...what would have made you happy last year? A Super Bowl win? Don't you think that was expecting a bit too much from a new HC and GM after a 2-14 year? Maybe a playoff win would have been enough to satisfy you? Well, if it wasn't for injuries in the game, we would have had one.

Make no mistake, I am not saying Reid is the best coach in the game. But to call him "stale" and a flop after 1 season in which we went 11-5 and then came within a whisker of winning our first playoff game in 20 years is really kind of silly.

BTW Mongo.....since you think so poorly of Reid, what coach should Hunt have hired? Please be sure in answering that question to list only potential coaches that would have had at least some small interest in coaching the Chiefs. Lots of names were thrown around last year, but most of them were guys that had either no interest in returning to coaching or had no interest in coaching the Chiefs. I for one am firmly convinced that Hunt got us the very best coach he had any chance of getting.

Naturally, the goal is to win a Super Bowl. But you have to make the playoffs to do that. I think that right now most Chiefs fans would be quite happy with a coach who simply got us into the playoffs most of the time. Once you are in the playoffs anything can happen.


History/Odds are highly against Andy Reid winning a SB in KC. You may not care what Reid did in Philly, but as history as shown, if you choose to ignore it, you are bound to repeat it.

That is true. But you wanna know something???? With very few exceptions, History/Odds are highly against ANY given coach winning a Super Bowl. Go back to the merger, exclude the 3 winningest Super Bowl coaches, figure out how many Head Coaches there have been in total, then give me the odds for ANY coach to win the Super Bowl. You'll find that they are not much (if any) better than Reid winning a Super Bowl with the Chiefs.

Andy Reid is the Chiefs Head Coach. And he deserves our support until he proves he is at least as bad as RC and TH were.

Mongo
04-11-2014, 12:28 PM
Don Shula
Dick Vermeil
Tom Coughlin
Jon Gruden
Pete Carroll
Bill Belichick
Tony Dungy

Not sure what having 10+ years has to do with anything.
By your list only Tom Coughlin won his first after ten years in the league. In itself, after a coach has been in the league more than 10 years they have little chance of winning one. The list is comprised of coaching legends. Landry, Noll and Gibbs (yr 11), Belichek and Coughlin. Andy Reid is not a legend.

They become stale. They get stuck in their ways. See "continually neglecting the running game".

I don't want to say it's impossible, and hope like Hell it isn't, but it's highly unlikely Andy Reid will ever win a Super Bowl -- anywhere. He will likely join the ranks of Bud Grant, Marv Levy and Marty Schottenheimer in the B grade Hall of Fame.

ctchiefsfan
04-11-2014, 12:35 PM
Fair enough. It's not really saying much given his competition, is it? He'll be here 3 more years unless the wheels fall off completely. They shouldn't.

EXACTLY! They shouldn't. This coming season will be dicey. Barring an injury to the Forehead we are probably starting the season looking for a Wildcard. But Wildcard teams have done exceptionally well of recent....and I'll remind you that the Chiefs ONLY Super Bowl win was as a Wildcard (although the terminology was different back then.)

Meantime, moving forward, we are going to have a bunch of compensatory picks for the 2015 season and should become a very young team. Give Reid 2 years (2015 and 2016) to work with them along with this years picks and the 2016 picks and I think we have one hell of a talented team come the start of 2017. Throw in that the Forehead will almost assuredly be gone by 2017 and I think we will be in a position to dominate the AFC West at least through the end of the decade. Naturally, this assumes that Dorsey turns out to be at least close to as good as he is supposed to be at picking talent.

ctchiefsfan
04-11-2014, 12:47 PM
Albert doesn’t bother me because I knew he was gone the minute Eric Fisher was drafted. They should have cut him then.

No, we shouldn't have. Cutting him then would have cost us the compensatory pick we are going to get for having lost him in Free Agency. Furthmore, Reid knew he needed to show some immediate improvement this past year. Albert helped us go 11-5 and get us into the playoffs. Keeping him was the right choice.


What bothers me is that I can’t name one player replaced by a better alternative. Can you?

Of course you can't. That's because we haven't seen who the replacements for the guys we lost in free agency will be. Sure, we have a pretty good idea. But nothing is set in concrete yet. And we haven't seen how they will play once they become starters. MANY players take a big step up when they get promoted from backup to Starter. A LOT of that has to do with coaching. We'll see what Reid is able to get out of them.

And I must remind AGAIN that we simply didn't have the cap space to keep the Free Agents we lost.

brdempsey69
04-11-2014, 01:21 PM
By your list only Tom Coughlin won his first after ten years in the league. In itself, after a coach has been in the league more than 10 years they have little chance of winning one. The list is comprised of coaching legends. Landry, Noll and Gibbs (yr 11), Belichek and Coughlin. Andy Reid is not a legend.

They become stale. They get stuck in their ways. See "continually neglecting the running game".

I don't want to say it's impossible, and hope like Hell it isn't, but it's highly unlikely Andy Reid will ever win a Super Bowl -- anywhere. He will likely join the ranks of Bud Grant, Marv Levy and Marty Schottenheimer in the B grade Hall of Fame.

Coughlin, Belichick, Vermeil, and the others were no legends of any kind. None of the guys that I listed were, except Don Shula and I forgot to add Weeb Ewbank to that list. Landry, Noll and Gibbs never coached a 2nd team.

Andy Reid has not totally neglected the running game, but he does prefer to pass first.

ctchiefsfan
04-11-2014, 01:52 PM
I don't want to say it's impossible, and hope like Hell it isn't, but it's highly unlikely Andy Reid will ever win a Super Bowl -- anywhere. He will likely join the ranks of Bud Grant, Marv Levy and Marty Schottenheimer in the B grade Hall of Fame.

Well Thank you at least for that. But I would like to remind you of a fact. There was a time when it was "highly unlikely" that a "Wildcard" (using the verbiage that was in use at the time) team would ever win the Super Bowl. I well remember the first time a "Wildcard" team ever won the Super Bowl. Now it has become almost common. But I would like to ask you again.......What coach that Clark Hunt could have ACTUALLY GOTTEN would have had a substantially better chance of winning a Super Bowl for the Chiefs?

You really shouldn't tell us Reid was a bad choice and has little or no "Historical/Odds" chance without telling us what coach that we could have ACTUALLY GOTTEN was the Odds-on guy to coach us to a Super Bowl win.

Until you answer that question you really aren't much more than a Reid-hater and complainer.

If you want to tell us Reid ain't the guy, then you should have the courtesy of telling us who "the guy" was.

I'm waiting.

Eydugstr
04-11-2014, 02:21 PM
Its not about DEN and the money they've spent. Every player who has left has been replaced, thus far, by a lesser one. And some seem to think the draft will correct all of that. It won't.

Okay, who would YOU have signed or traded, given our cap space & draft situation? Don't give me the "...all I'm saying is ..." routine, just tell us who you would've traded or signed.

Mongo
04-11-2014, 02:23 PM
I mean c'mon...what would have made you happy last year? A Super Bowl win? Don't you think that was expecting a bit too much from a new HC and GM after a 2-14 year? Maybe a playoff win would have been enough to satisfy you? Well, if it wasn't for injuries in the game, we would have had one.

Make no mistake, I am not saying Reid is the best coach in the game. But to call him "stale" and a flop after 1 season in which we went 11-5 and then came within a whisker of winning our first playoff game in 20 years is really kind of silly.

Naturally, the goal is to win a Super Bowl. But you have to make the playoffs to do that. I think that right now most Chiefs fans would be quite happy with a coach who simply got us into the playoffs most of the time. Once you are in the playoffs anything can happen.

That is true. But you wanna know something???? With very few exceptions, History/Odds are highly against ANY given coach winning a Super Bowl. Go back to the merger, exclude the 3 winningest Super Bowl coaches, figure out how many Head Coaches there have been in total, then give me the odds for ANY coach to win the Super Bowl. You'll find that they are not much (if any) better than Reid winning a Super Bowl with the Chiefs.

Andy Reid is the Chiefs Head Coach. And he deserves our support until he proves he is at least as bad as RC and TH were.
What does “support” have to do with anything? I’m not calling for Reid’s head or calling him a flop. He’s already gotten the Chiefs back to respectability, just like Philly. I just expect a repeat of the Marty years. Close, but no cigar.

Last year was the most fun I had as a Chiefs fan in years. I was skeptical of Reid and remain so, that doesn’t mean I don’t “support” him. I would much rather enjoy a SB and be wrong.

Of course odds against any coach, but there is a profile of the winners. Reid doesn’t fit it. Nobody knew who Bill Parcells was. No one knew what Jimmy Johnson could do in the NFL. No one knew if past failures were misleading for Mike Shanahan, Bill Belichek and recently Pete Carroll. Who was Bill Cowher? Or Bill Walsh? Or Joe Gibbs?

None of them were “proven”. Andy Reid is. That’s what KC wanted and that’s what they got. Let’s hope he bucks a trend starting since Super Bowl I.

Mongo
04-11-2014, 02:42 PM
Okay, who would YOU have signed or traded, given our cap space & draft situation? Don't give me the "...all I'm saying is ..." routine, just tell us who you would've traded or signed.

This has been covered before.

Mongo
04-11-2014, 02:53 PM
Well Thank you at least for that. But I would like to remind you of a fact. There was a time when it was "highly unlikely" that a "Wildcard" (using the verbiage that was in use at the time) team would ever win the Super Bowl. I well remember the first time a "Wildcard" team ever won the Super Bowl. Now it has become almost common. But I would like to ask you again.......What coach that Clark Hunt could have ACTUALLY GOTTEN would have had a substantially better chance of winning a Super Bowl for the Chiefs?

You really shouldn't tell us Reid was a bad choice and has little or no "Historical/Odds" chance without telling us what coach that we could have ACTUALLY GOTTEN was the Odds-on guy to coach us to a Super Bowl win.

Until you answer that question you really aren't much more than a Reid-hater and complainer.

If you want to tell us Reid ain't the guy, then you should have the courtesy of telling us who "the guy" was.

I'm waiting.
Chill out and keep waiting. I can't tell you that any more than the Mara's knew that Bill Parcell was a future legend. I can tell you guys I would have considered first, and you'd shoot them down, of course, because really neither of us know who are the hot coordinators and college coaches.

I didn't want Chip Kelley. I wanted Ray Horton. I wanted something fresh and new. Not stale and "proven" retread.

Most Chiefs fans have been so beaten down by past failures they wanted someone "proven" to make it all better. We'll see what happens.

PS: There might be a time when farts without scent is possible. I'm not going to keep sniffing until then.

Mongo
04-11-2014, 03:24 PM
Coughlin, Belichick, Vermeil, and the others were no legends of any kind. None of the guys that I listed were, except Don Shula and I forgot to add Weeb Ewbank to that list. Landry, Noll and Gibbs never coached a 2nd team.

Andy Reid has not totally neglected the running game, but he does prefer to pass first.
I stated that poorly and forgot Ewbank, thanks .

Ewbank, Landry, Noll and Gibbs (yr 11), Belichick and Coughlin are the only coaches to win a Super Bowl after their tenth year, regardless of how many teams they coached. All are legends except Coughlin.

Eydugstr
04-11-2014, 03:45 PM
This has been covered before.

So? A lot of what we've talked about has been discussed before, it's not stopping anyone else. Just stand up for the guys you wanted signed/traded.

ctchiefsfan
04-11-2014, 03:45 PM
What does “support” have to do with anything? I’m not calling for Reid’s head or calling him a flop. He’s already gotten the Chiefs back to respectability, just like Philly. I just expect a repeat of the Marty years. Close, but no cigar.

Last year was the most fun I had as a Chiefs fan in years. I was skeptical of Reid and remain so, that doesn’t mean I don’t “support” him. I would much rather enjoy a SB and be wrong.

Of course odds against any coach, but there is a profile of the winners. Reid doesn’t fit it. Nobody knew who Bill Parcells was. No one knew what Jimmy Johnson could do in the NFL. No one knew if past failures were misleading for Mike Shanahan, Bill Belichek and recently Pete Carroll. Who was Bill Cowher? Or Bill Walsh? Or Joe Gibbs?

None of them were “proven”. Andy Reid is. That’s what KC wanted and that’s what they got. Let’s hope he bucks a trend starting since Super Bowl I.

OK. I can deal with that. To me at least you've been coming across very negative about Reid but I'm willing to write that off as my interpretation of your words rather than your actual intent.

I still have a bone to pick with you though.....


I just expect a repeat of the Marty years. Close, but no cigar.

That may well be. But I'll tell you what....If Reid's record here were to closely resemble his record in Philly it would be quite a few years before I was willing to say maybe it was time for Reid to go. As you said, this past year was a BLAST! And it was the closest we have gotten to a playoff win in 20 years. I want a Super Bowl win as badly as most any Chiefs fan, but right now I'd be very happy with some "baby steps"....making the playoffs more than 50% of the time......a couple of playoff wins....consistently being a realistic contender for the playoffs well into the last 4 games of the season.

Yeah I want a Super Bowl win but you have to make the playoffs before you can think about the Superbowl.

Is Reid another Marty? Maybe so. Maybe not. But I really don't think you are the "all knowing Oz" who can tell us for sure one way or the other. He did get Philthy to the Super Bowl. And the truth is that once you get to the Playoffs ANYTHING can happen. The best team in the playoffs does not always make or win the Super Bowl. The best coached team in the playoffs does not always make or win the Super Bowl. An injury, a tipped pass, a single blown coverage, a safety slipping, a normally reliable kicker missing a bunch of Field Goals or a host of other things.....all of these things can be the difference between 2 closely matched teams making the Super Bowl or not and even winning the Super Bowl or not. Remember Lin Elliot? Remember Jan Stenerud against those damned fish on Christmas day all those years ago? You can't win the Super Bowl unless you make the playoffs. And once you make the Playoffs anything can happen.

And you ain't ever going to win the Super Bowl if you don't make the Playoffs. And IMO Reid was the very best possible Head Coach available who gave a us a real chance of being in contention for the playoffs on December 1st every year.

I understand your 44 years of frustration. I've been a Chiefs fan since the late '60s. So I too know the frustration. But I expect progress, not instant perfection. Reid and Dorsey earned the right to some time last year.

2014 may well be a bump in the road. It appears to be a tougher schedule than 2013 turned out to be. And we did lose some Free Agents that have been important to the team. But I don't see that either Reid or Dorsey could have avoided that. I mean, it's not like last years draft was all that deep.

Now is not the time to be saying "Reid isn't good enough". Unless of course you want to say who we could have gotten that was better. But I have asked you that twice before and you have ignored it both times. So I suspect you don't have an answer.

Reid has done GREAT so far. And I honestly believe he will do even better over the next 3-4 years. If he does, we will have some fun seasons and a very realistic chance of playing in the Super Bowl. I don't know how much more anyone can ask than that.

ctchiefsfan
04-11-2014, 03:57 PM
Chill out and keep waiting.

I am chilled. I like where this Chiefs team is headed.


I can't tell you that any more than the Mara's knew that Bill Parcell was a future legend. I can tell you guys I would have considered first, and you'd shoot them down, of course, because really neither of us know who are the hot coordinators and college coaches.

That's right. None of us knows who IF ANYBODY would have been a better selection than Reid. So it's all OPINION and we all know about opinions. Like ashholes, mine stinks as bad as yours.


Most Chiefs fans have been so beaten down by past failures they wanted someone "proven" to make it all better. We'll see what happens.

My opinion was that Reid was the most likely to return us to long term respectability. Better a proven commodity than a wild stab in the dark. But then I've already addressed "opinions" and yours is no more valid than mine.

Mongo
04-11-2014, 04:37 PM
So? A lot of what we've talked about has been discussed before, it's not stopping anyone else. Just stand up for the guys you wanted signed/traded.
I've posted specifically who I wanted and didn't and how it could have been done. It's out there. Go find it. I'm not your lackey.

Besides, what difference does it make? Even if I went to the trouble of re-posting it you'd try to poke holes through it. Even if it were the most brilliant, well designed GM strategy ever, you'd say, "Duh! As if Dorsey didn't think of that."

So far the Chiefs' offseason sucks. They could have done a lot of things and did nothing but pick from the scrap heap. The talent level on this team has stepped backwards. Not one player who left was upgraded, and that includes Vance Walker.

Mongo
04-11-2014, 05:03 PM
I am chilled. I like where this Chiefs team is headed.

That's right. None of us knows who IF ANYBODY would have been a better selection than Reid. So it's all OPINION and we all know about opinions. Like ashholes, mine stinks as bad as yours.

My opinion was that Reid was the most likely to return us to long term respectability. Better a proven commodity than a wild stab in the dark. But then I've already addressed "opinions" and yours is no more valid than mine.
None of that changes that in general, with few exceptional exceptions, retread coaches don't win SB. 11+ year coaches don't win SB. Teams with the talent & vision to find the next big thing do.

Its remarkable how similar Reid and Alex Smith are in that, KC fans are so downtrodden they are willing to accept B grade answers as saviors. You’ve been beaten down by so many Matt Cassels, Elvis Grbacs, Herm Edwards, Romeo Crennels and the like that you’ve given up on searching for the elusive next big thing.
There is nothing guaranteed with anything in life -- QB, HC, wife, etc. But as Wayne Gretsky said, “You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.”

Eydugstr
04-11-2014, 05:34 PM
I've posted specifically who I wanted and didn't and how it could have been done. It's out there. Go find it. I'm not your lackey.

Lame. Just gave you a chance to state your case. Was (and still) willing to listen. If it'll make you feel better, I won't even post a response. Again, since you've played critic, just wondered exactly what KC should have done, and should have signed, given the cap space & draft position.

Besides, what difference does it make? Even if I went to the trouble of re-posting it you'd try to poke holes through it. Even if it were the most brilliant, well designed GM strategy ever, you'd say, "Duh! As if Dorsey didn't think of that."

If you post it yes it's going to get criticized. To be specific it's other posters that have ripped your posts to shreds. And yes it's easy to sit back and play critic, little bit different when you get asked to present your solution. So far you've played critic. What few solutions or ideas you've brought up, guess what...everyone else criticized, too.

So far the Chiefs' offseason sucks. They could have done a lot of things and did nothing but pick from the scrap heap. The talent level on this team has stepped backwards. Not one player who left was upgraded, and that includes Vance Walker.

Again, more criticism, more negativity. Ok, so you've come to the conclusion this offseason has sucked, the talent level on this team has stepped backwards, and Vance Walker is no upgrade. Again, so what was your solution? Go back as far you wish, you've stated you'd rather have Ray Horton as a head coach instead of Andy Reid.

matthewschiefs
04-11-2014, 06:02 PM
Again the talk of the upgrade of what we lost I will ask again
WHAT DID WE LOST THAT WAS SO GREAT? Is this thing working this has yet to be answered

doobs_05
04-11-2014, 06:16 PM
What did KC gain that makes this team better than last year?

and yes, i know, the draft is coming.

The only thing that can be said is "other teams over paid" "KC didn't have the money"

There is reason to be worried and there is reasons to feel okay about everything.

TopekaRoy
04-11-2014, 06:59 PM
We should have signed Desean Jackson, Jared Allen, Devin Hester, Josh McCown, Julius Peppers, and brought Tony Gonzalez and Brian Urlacher out of retirement.

Just tell them all, "we'll pay you later." If they don't WANT to play for the Chiefs, tough. Blackmail them.

Eydugstr
04-11-2014, 07:10 PM
We should have signed Desean Jackson, Jared Allen, Devin Hester, Josh McCown, Julius Peppers, and brought Tony Gonzalez and Brian Urlacher out of retirement.

Just tell them all, "we'll pay you later." If they don't WANT to play for the Chiefs, tough. Blackmail them.

Certainly. And we'll call them "The dream team: The big red edition". It can't fail.

brdempsey69
04-11-2014, 07:14 PM
Again the talk of the upgrade of what we lost I will ask again
WHAT DID WE LOST THAT WAS SO GREAT? Is this thing working this has yet to be answered

Okay, I'll try and answer that, for what it's worth. Here's what the Chiefs lost.

1) A LT-Wannabe that should have been playing Guard all along & wasn't worth half of the pay he was wanting.
2) A Guard that Pioli drafted that was never very good and got flatbacked more than any Guard I've ever seen.
3) A Guard/Tackle that was OK ( Schwartz ) but not Will Shields by any stretch of the imagination & nothing that a mid-round draft pick can't replace.
4) An undersized slot WR that anyone's grandma could tackle if she made contact with him & is going to be easy to replace.
5) A Safety that couldn't tackle or cover a tackling dummy.
6) A overdrafted DE that mostly served as a blocking dummy & couldn't rush the passer even as well as many DE's that were drafted in way later rounds since ( thanks Pioli, ya stupid baldheaded twerp ).
7) A few cheerleaders that by comparison to the Seagals in Seattle, look like they would give syphilis to a male billy-goat on contact.

GEE, those are real bonafide reasons to push panic buttons now aren't they? Especially considering that the players listed above are now OVERPAID and would not have been major difference makers if they had stayed any more than the cheerleaders mentioned.

matthewschiefs
04-11-2014, 07:49 PM
What did KC gain that makes this team better than last year?

and yes, i know, the draft is coming.

The only thing that can be said is "other teams over paid" "KC didn't have the money"

There is reason to be worried and there is reasons to feel okay about everything.

The only thing I worry about is blowing the draft. That's going to be the worry every year. This GM just doesn't go bring in a lot of big name FAs. People are just going to have to get over that. This is the type of offseason we are going to have to get use to if Dorsey is a long term GM.

But I don't think this team really lost all that much so I'm not over worried right now. The draft will be huge for this team going forward

jason1981
04-11-2014, 11:12 PM
Ditto about the draft. Dorsey has to make sure he drafts well for their plan to work. Lets ha e this debate after the draft.

ctchiefsfan
04-11-2014, 11:35 PM
Mongo......

I have tried to treat you and the arguments you have made with decency and respect. I've tried to have a discussion with you that could lead to some area of mutual agreement. Clearly that has been a waste of time. You have your opinion, you are sure you are right, and that is the end of that.

I have wasted too much time trying to have a reasoned discussion with you. You are borderline MMO/MMH.

Damn shame. I thought you were a reasonable person. Yet again I have been proved the fool.

I am glad you are a Chiefs fan and I love you for that. But for your unwillingness to listen to any opinion but your own, I can not respect you.

Regards.....ctchiefsfan.....

ctchiefsfan
04-12-2014, 12:00 AM
Jason and others have said it like it is. Reid/Dorsey have a plan and they are following that plan. Dorsey's job is to get the talent in the draft and Reid's job is to suck every ounce of talent out of the people Dorsey drafts.

I LIKE the plan!!!!! I think it has a good chance of working to make our Chiefs an important team again.

The plan may not work. Certainly possible. But at least the GM and the Head Coach have a plan. First damned time since Dick Vermeil that there was any real coordinated plan for achieving success.

Dick Vermeil's plan was short term. And it made sense. We were a whisker away from having a legitimate Super Bowl team. It didn't work out.

I like the Reid/Dorsey plan better. It's a plan that should make us a legitimate contender for the next 10 years.

I look forward to our Chiefs bringing Reid a Super Bowl win and to Reid and Dorsey making that possible.

And if anybody doesn't like what I'm saying then they can kiss my brown eye. I may be wrong, but at least we have a clear and concise plan with a decent chance of success.

TopekaRoy
04-12-2014, 01:02 AM
Mongo......

You are borderline MMO/MMH.




OH, NO

http://www.snappypixels.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/oh-no-you-didnt-1.jpg
YOU DI'INT!

ctchiefsfan
04-12-2014, 02:03 AM
Topeka......

I used the word "borderline" as a qualifier and if you read the thread you'll see I have always been respectful. He is not MMO/MMH.....but he getting awful close to "borderline".

Disagreement is one thing. Repeatedly ignoring questions asked by someone you are debating is a MMO/MMH tactic. It amounts to "I'm right, you're wrong, so I have no obligation to pay any attention to anything you've said."

That is why I said a few posts back that while I loved him for being a Chiefs fan I had no use for him.

And I will shut my mouth before I insult anyone.

matthewschiefs
04-12-2014, 02:14 AM
If I were to guess I would guess that Mongo MMO/H is like myself and I believe doobs ones that all they have seen is 1 and done in the playoffs. That over the years has its effect on a lot of people. It leads some when a new group of managment comes in to say I have heard this story before why should I believe it now. I understand that mindset. Which is why I never had a major issue with MMO or doobs whenever everyone was disagreeing with him earlier this offseason. They have gotten their hopes up before only to be let down so now they are I will believe it when I see it. Nothing wrong with that mindset. I'm in a way like that two. But I try my best to be fair to any given gm coach and give them a chance. You never will see me say I know Dorsey or Reid will work out. I don't but I also don't allow myself to think just because so and so failed they will either.

ctchiefsfan
04-12-2014, 02:37 AM
Fair enough. And I wish to be clear.....it was never my intention to suggest that Mongo was MMO/MMH. Mongo....and Doobs too...are my brothers-in-arms. They are Chiefs fans. Misguided IMO, but then my opinion isn't always correct......so I forgive them their sins....just as I hope they forgive mine.

matthewschiefs
04-12-2014, 02:46 AM
Fair enough. And I wish to be clear.....it was never my intention to suggest that Mongo was MMO/MMH. Mongo....and Doobs too...are my brothers-in-arms. They are Chiefs fans. Misguided IMO, but then my opinion isn't always correct......so I forgive them their sins....just as I hope they forgive mine.

Hey at the end of the day we are all just a bunch of guys/gals whichever the case might be for each of us talking about football sharing our views on this internet thingy. We all have the right to express our opinions and everyone else has the right to express how much they disagree with your opinion. Though I must say if you disagree with me you're just wrong:lol::biggrin:

TopekaRoy
04-12-2014, 10:11 AM
Topeka......

I used the word "borderline" as a qualifier and if you read the thread you'll see I have always been respectful. He is not MMO/MMH.....but he getting awful close to "borderline".
I understand completely. I was just kidding around.

Besides, that baby is ADORABLE!

If I recall correctly, after Mongo's very first post in this forum, several people were wondering if he could be MMO/H, but I know he is not. He has hardly bashed Alex at all and I don't ever recall him mentioning that Big Apple QB!

So there you go ... :smile

ctchiefsfan
04-12-2014, 11:18 AM
Nope! Mongo is not MMO/MMH. Mongo at least is a Chiefs fan. A misguided one about Andy Reid IMO but a Chiefs fan none-the-less.

brdempsey69
04-12-2014, 11:34 AM
It appears the problem with Reid in Philly was similar to what happened with Hank Stram. Instead of sticking to coaching, they got a little too heavily involved in player/personnel and other Front Office activities & the result was a burnout. Reid said here in KC, he would stick to coaching and let Dorsey and his staff handle the Front Office stuff.

ctchiefsfan
04-12-2014, 12:44 PM
That has been the impression I got.

doobs_05
04-12-2014, 02:03 PM
Hey at the end of the day we are all just a bunch of guys/gals whichever the case might be for each of us talking about football sharing our views on this internet thingy. We all have the right to express our opinions and everyone else has the right to express how much they disagree with your opinion. Though I must say if you disagree with me you're just wrong:lol::biggrin:


It does get old having a new head coach come in, get the hopes up and then *poof* back to square 1. KC needs to get back to winning West titles (never won that back to back, and it's not that big of a deal, just means you did better than 3 other teams), multiple winning seasons (when was the last time KC went back to back above .500....05-06 and before that 97-98, didn't count 8-8 records which would of been 02-03.) Win playoff games (we all know 20 years), and then finally get that god damn super bowl.

I don't care that KC didn't sign anyone, they didn't have the money, i just feel from what we lost in FA to who we signed so far this offseason, it doesn't equal itself out, right now. Draft will come and go and we'll discuss who KC picked up and we won't know how good those guys are till the season begins, right now its all about how it looks on paper and just opinions.

Mongo
04-12-2014, 02:04 PM
Again the talk of the upgrade of what we lost I will ask again
WHAT DID WE LOST THAT WAS SO GREAT? Is this thing working this has yet to be answered

Branden Albert B
Geoff Schwartz B
Quinton Demps C S, B KR
Dexter McCluster D WR A- KR
Akeem Jordan C
Tyson Jackson B- -- As a classic run stopping 34DE

That's what we lost. No one great. Still 4 starters and 2 valuable role players.

Now you tell me how the talent level at those positions was improved. What did KC do replace them?

Mongo
04-12-2014, 02:10 PM
Mongo......

I have tried to treat you and the arguments you have made with decency and respect. I've tried to have a discussion with you that could lead to some area of mutual agreement. Clearly that has been a waste of time. You have your opinion, you are sure you are right, and that is the end of that.

I have wasted too much time trying to have a reasoned discussion with you. You are borderline MMO/MMH.

Damn shame. I thought you were a reasonable person. Yet again I have been proved the fool.

I am glad you are a Chiefs fan and I love you for that. But for your unwillingness to listen to any opinion but your own, I can not respect you.

Regards.....ctchiefsfan.....
Just because I don't roll over and agree with you doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. Of course I think my opinion is right. What good is an opinion unless you do?

I have replied without resorting to personal

Mongo
04-12-2014, 02:14 PM
Fair enough. And I wish to be clear.....it was never my intention to suggest that Mongo was MMO/MMH. Mongo....and Doobs too...are my brothers-in-arms. They are Chiefs fans. Misguided IMO, but then my opinion isn't always correct......so I forgive them their sins....just as I hope they forgive mine.
I suspect I should be insulted but I don't know what "MMO/MMH" means. :D

matthewschiefs
04-12-2014, 02:17 PM
It does get old having a new head coach come in, get the hopes up and then *poof* back to square 1. KC needs to get back to winning West titles (never won that back to back, and it's not that big of a deal, just means you did better than 3 other teams), multiple winning seasons (when was the last time KC went back to back above .500....05-06 and before that 97-98, didn't count 8-8 records which would of been 02-03.) Win playoff games (we all know 20 years), and then finally get that god damn super bowl.

I don't care that KC didn't sign anyone, they didn't have the money, i just feel from what we lost in FA to who we signed so far this offseason, it doesn't equal itself out, right now. Draft will come and go and we'll discuss who KC picked up and we won't know how good those guys are till the season begins, right now its all about how it looks on paper and just opinions.

I very much understand the frustration I have had the same frustration. I have gotten into the mindset every year is a new year. Just because last year ended the most painful ending I have sat through doesn't mean this year is going to be the same. Hey if you are a Kansas City Chiefs and Cleveland Indians fan you have to be in that mindset otherwise you would be on suicide watch

matthewschiefs
04-12-2014, 02:20 PM
Branden Albert B
Geoff Schwartz B
Quinton Demps C S, B KR
Dexter McCluster D WR A- KR
Akeem Jordan C
Tyson Jackson B- -- As a classic run stopping 34DE

That's what we lost. No one great. Still 4 starters and 2 valuable role players.

Now you tell me how the talent level at those positions was improved. What did KC do replace them?

See you said it NOTHING GREAT. Now I will agree the talent we brought in isn't great but they can fill in at least part of the roles of what we lost. And then there's the draft we can make up the difference there. That's why I say the offseason is incomplete. If Dorsey drafts well then we will be fine. If not then we will take a step back. That's just how things are going to be

ctchiefsfan
04-12-2014, 02:39 PM
See you said it NOTHING GREAT. Now I will agree the talent we brought in isn't great but they can fill in at least part of the roles of what we lost. And then there's the draft we can make up the difference there. That's why I say the offseason is incomplete. If Dorsey drafts well then we will be fine. If not then we will take a step back. That's just how things are going to be

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Dorsey is supposed to be in the draft. Not just in the first couple of rounds but also at finding undervalued talent later in the draft. Reid is supposed to be good at getting every bit of talent out of players. If it turns out to be true, at the end of 3-4 drafts we should have one hell of a team. Young, good, inexpensive and plenty of cap space left.

That is a team that can dominate.

Mongo
04-12-2014, 03:03 PM
Because I'm sick of the character assaults, for the second time, here's what I would have done:

Extend Eric Berry. Give him a low $1M base with a $10M signing bonus that covers the $11M owed this season. The breakdown is as follows:



Year
Bonus
Salary
Cap


1
2.00
1.00
3.00


2
2.00
5.50
7.50


3
2.00
7.50
9.50


4
2.00
9.50
11.50


5
2.00
13.50
15.50


6
0.00
10.00
10.00



This would have freed $8M and kept one of core players under contract for 3-4 years.

Next I cut Anthony Fasano and Donnie Avery. As per OverTheCap this saves $1.75M.

Knowing that Tamba Hali will be cut next year I'd restructure $10M of his salary into a signing bonus spread over the next two seasons. I do this knowing that when he is cut next season it costs us $5M+. I'm banking on the usual cap increase buffering for that. This saves another $5M.

I've effectively created $15M in cap space. Here's how I do or do not spend it.

I don't bother with Emmanuel Sanders or any other FA. I do this knowing this is a WR rich draft and landing one in R1-3 is a priority.

I do not extend Alex Smith because I need to see more of him before I make any long term commitment.

I match the money paid to Geoff Schwartz. Some semblance of continuity on the OL must be preserved. His contract is not unreasonable. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/geoff-schwartz/

I sign Alex Mack to an offer sheet. I offer CLE a 2015 R3 not to match. If they match, so be it. Move on. If not I can move Hudson to LG. The traded R3 will be recouped by compensatory picks.

If I can't land Mack I pursue Jairus Byrd. I work a deal similar to what the Saints offer without the big second year hit. If I can't land him or sign Mack, I pursue Chris Clemons. I'm not comfortable with Husain Abdullah and Sanders Commings at FS.

Contrary to popular belief these are the only "big-time" FA I'd pursue.

I don't bother signing Joe Mays or Chris Owens. Same for Vance Walker. I don't think he fits the scheme.

I still have to pursue depth at tackle and DE but I wait until after the draft to do so.

In general, I also follow the draft first mentality, but there is a time and place where FA dollars must be spent. There are times when measures must be taken to create the space to do so.

Mongo
04-12-2014, 03:13 PM
See you said it NOTHING GREAT. Now I will agree the talent we brought in isn't great but they can fill in at least part of the roles of what we lost. And then there's the draft we can make up the difference there. That's why I say the offseason is incomplete. If Dorsey drafts well then we will be fine. If not then we will take a step back. That's just how things are going to be
Six solid contributors cannot be replaced in one draft. Especially one missing an R2 pick. You don't draft expecting immediate returns. If Dorsey thinks he can we have a problem. I doubt he does.

Mongo
04-12-2014, 03:17 PM
Because I'm sick of the character assaults, for the second time, here's what I would have done:

Extend Eric Berry. Give him a low $1M base with a $10M signing bonus that covers the $11M owed this season. The breakdown is as follows:



Year
Bonus
Salary
Cap


1
2.00
1.00
3.00


2
2.00
5.50
7.50


3
2.00
7.50
9.50


4
2.00
9.50
11.50


5
2.00
13.50
15.50


6
0.00
10.00
10.00



This would have freed $8M and kept one of core players under contract for 3-4 years.

Next I cut Anthony Fasano and Donnie Avery. As per OverTheCap this saves $1.75M.

Knowing that Tamba Hali will be cut next year I'd restructure $10M of his salary into a signing bonus spread over the next two seasons. I do this knowing that when he is cut next season it costs us $5M+. I'm banking on the usual cap increase buffering for that. This saves another $5M.

I've effectively created $15M in cap space. Here's how I do or do not spend it.

I don't bother with Emmanuel Sanders or any other FA WR. I do this knowing this is a WR rich draft and landing one in R1-3 is a priority.

I do not extend Alex Smith because I need to see more of him before I make any long term commitment.

I match the money paid to Geoff Schwartz. Some semblance of continuity on the OL must be preserved. His contract is not unreasonable. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/geoff-schwartz/

I sign Alex Mack to an offer sheet. I offer CLE a 2015 R3 not to match. If they match, so be it. Move on. If not I can move Hudson to LG. The traded R3 will be recouped by compensatory picks.

If I can't land Mack I pursue Jairus Byrd. I work a deal similar to what the Saints offer without the big second year hit. If I can't land him or I do sign Mack, I pursue Chris Clemons. I'm not comfortable with Husain Abdullah and Sanders Commings at FS.

Contrary to popular belief these are the only "big-time" FA I'd pursue.

I don't bother signing Joe Mays or Chris Owens. Same for Vance Walker. I don't think he fits the scheme.

I still have to pursue depth at tackle and DE but I wait until after the draft to do so.

In general, I also follow the draft first mentality, but there is a time and place where FA dollars must be spent. There are times when measures must be taken to create the space to do so.
I made some revisions for clarity.

matthewschiefs
04-12-2014, 03:49 PM
Six solid contributors cannot be replaced in one draft. Especially one missing an R2 pick. You don't draft expecting immediate returns. If Dorsey thinks he can we have a problem. I doubt he does.

Thats why we also brought in some low FA. I agree the guys we brought in alone are not good enough to replace the guys we lost but they can fill in some of those roles. The draft if done right can make up the rest of the difference. They wont have to make up losing those guys by themselves it's a combo. Rookies dont come in and play all pro level but they can make some impact. Justin Houston helped out his rookie year some but you have to draft right. That's up to dorsey.

matthewschiefs
04-12-2014, 03:53 PM
I made some revisions for clarity.

In fairness Berry would have had to agree to the contract. Dorsey might have tried to do something like that Berry or his agent might have said no. That's part of the unknown to us. It sounds good but that's not to say it's that simple

TopekaRoy
04-12-2014, 08:03 PM
First, Mongo, let me applaud you for coming up with a well-thought-out, reasonable plan. Some thoughts


Extend Eric Berry.






This would have freed $8M and kept one of core players under contract for 3-4 years.

I think almost everyone wants to extend Berry, but, like Matthewschiefs said, he has to agree to that. Circumstantial evidence indicates that the Chiefs tried to do just that, but couldn't reach an agreement. If I am going to voluntarily defer $10 million of my own guaranteed money, I would want a substantial raise for doing so. With only one year left on his contract, I suspect Berry is going to go the Brandon Albert route and try to get as much as he can in FA. Your plan also puts a heavy cap burden on the Chiefs down the road.

So if speculation is correct, then you would try to do what Dorsey tried to do and likely get the same result.


Next I cut Anthony Fasano and Donnie Avery. As per OverTheCap this saves $1.75M.
Not a lot of savings there, but every little bit helps right? I would prefer to keep Fasano, at least, but that is just my opinion. At any rate, not pursuing a WR in FA, this move actually makes our receiving corps worse, not better, at least until the draft. This entire discussion centers around the opinion of some that the Chiefs have gotten worse since last year, and here your plan does exactly that.


Knowing that Tamba Hali will be cut next year ...

How do you know that? I certainly don't. He is not THAT old. He could be a very good player for the next 4 or 5 years


I'd restructure $10M of his salary into a signing bonus spread over the next two seasons. I do this knowing that when he is cut next season it costs us $5M+. I'm banking on the usual cap increase buffering for that. This saves another $5M.

Again you have the same obstacles that you have with Berry, plus you are adding $5M in dead money which is more than our entire cap space for this year. And how do you know that Dorsey didn't already try to restructure Hali's contract? You don't.


I've effectively created $15M in cap space. Here's how I do or do not spend it.

I don't bother with Emmanuel Sanders or any other [WR] FA. I do this knowing this is a WR rich draft and landing one in R1-3 is a priority.

With Sanders falling through, that's just what the Chiefs are doing, so here again, you would do the same thing as Dorsey.


I do not extend Alex Smith because I need to see more of him before I make any long term commitment.

Again, same as Dorsey.


I match the money paid to Geoff Schwartz. Some semblance of continuity on the OL must be preserved. His contract is not unreasonable. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/geoff-schwartz/

Agreed. I wish we had done that, but you are just maintaining the status quo. We don't get any worse, but we are no better than we were before he was released, either.


I sign Alex Mack to an offer sheet. I offer CLE a 2015 R3 not to match. If they match, so be it. Move on. If not I can move Hudson to LG. The traded R3 will be recouped by compensatory picks.

If I can't land Mack I pursue Jairus Byrd. I work a deal similar to what the Saints offer without the big second year hit. If I can't land him or sign Mack, I pursue Chris Clemons. I'm not comfortable with Husain Abdullah and Sanders Commings at FS.

Contrary to popular belief these are the only "big-time" FA I'd pursue.

I don't bother signing Joe Mays or Chris Owens. Same for Vance Walker. I don't think he fits the scheme.

Like you said, there is no guarantee that we get any of those FAs and we don't get the compensatory picks until 2015 so now we have higher cap hits down the road and no 2nd or 3rd round pick this year if Cleveland agrees.


I still have to pursue depth at tackle and DE but I wait until after the draft to do so.

Same as Dorsey.

So, basically, your whole plan centers around restructuring Berry's and Hali's contracts which Dorsey may or may not have already tried to do, and creates more cap problems down the road. All of this to get either Mack or Clemons, and Bird, maybe, and keeping Schwartz, while losing Fasano, Avery, Mays, Owens, Walker and a 3rd round draft pick. That seems like a lot to give up just so we can spend a lot more money to add two players.

...in my opinion.

TopekaRoy
04-12-2014, 09:10 PM
Correction: I just noticed you said you would give Cleveland a 2015 3rd round pick. I misread that. So we would have the same number of picks this year and lose one of our extra picks, next year.

TopekaRoy
04-12-2014, 09:20 PM
Correction 2: in my conclusion, "either Mack or Clemons, and Bird" should say "either Bird, or Mack and Clemons." Sorry,

ctchiefsfan
04-12-2014, 10:26 PM
Mongo......

My compliments. I don't agree with you, but at least you came up with a plan. I will try to figure out how to give you some "rep" for that.

Why do I not agree with you? Because other teams are spending like drunken sailors in a whore house on free agents. So I don't think your plan would have worked. Largely because last year's draft was so thin.

Teams are paying idiot money for most any free agent that is a little above average because they didn't get what they hoped in last year's draft. So I think your approach would not have worked.

So no....I think you are wrong. And I will take the Dorsey/Reid approach over yours. HAPPILY.

But you made a decent case, so I tip my hat.

Eydugstr
04-12-2014, 11:18 PM
Mongo - Kudos for coming up with a plan. Goes a long way to making your arguments more credible.

Towards the parts of everyone else's discussion - Because of our cap situation, the end result was that we traded vanilla for less expensive vanilla. If you think that the board has been busy lately...wait until the draft (when Dorsey gets taken over Al Davis' ghost and drafts nothing but pot smoking kickers...j/k)

One thing that seems to get overlooked in a lot of this discussion is that KC did sign Weston Dressler. Granted, it's going to take a preseason to get any sort of idea whether or not he's strictly CFL material, but the guy can say he held the Grey cup. Whether or not he's NFL vanilla....We're going to find out.

ctchiefsfan
04-12-2014, 11:59 PM
Good post Eydugster! I had forgotten about Dressler. I am not expecting huge things from him but he might well equally replace one of the FAs we lost.....for about 1/10th what that free agent would have cost us.

Risky? Yes..... But then....Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I like most everything Dorsey has done since we got him about a year ago.

brdempsey69
04-13-2014, 12:10 AM
Because I'm sick of the character assaults, for the second time, here's what I would have done:

Extend Eric Berry. Give him a low $1M base with a $10M signing bonus that covers the $11M owed this season. The breakdown is as follows:



Year
Bonus
Salary
Cap


1
2.00
1.00
3.00


2
2.00
5.50
7.50


3
2.00
7.50
9.50


4
2.00
9.50
11.50


5
2.00
13.50
15.50


6
0.00
10.00
10.00



This would have freed $8M and kept one of core players under contract for 3-4 years.



Thank you for posting that. I needed a good LAUGH. :pointlaugh:

Because shilling out that kind of money for a player that's really not worth half of that is LAUGHABLE.

And I'll bet money it doesn't happen.

Mongo
04-13-2014, 05:14 AM
Thank you for posting that. I needed a good LAUGH. :pointlaugh:

Because shilling out that kind of money for a player that's really not worth half of that is LAUGHABLE.

And I'll bet money it doesn't happen.
Oh really? If Jairus Byrd is worth $9, someone will pay EB in the $10M range.

brdempsey69
04-13-2014, 11:04 AM
Oh really? If Jairus Byrd is worth $9, someone will pay EB in the $10M range.

Byrd is a better player than Berry is. Don't care if there is a sucker out there willing to overpay Berry or any Safety. I just hope it's not John Dorsey.

The only Safety that I can see being worth being paid the high dollars is Kam Chancellor & he's rightfully earned it without the hype that Berry comes with.

You are starting to sound like if Berry were ever to come to a sudden halt, then your face would go half-way up his arse. And yet, you suggest they unload Hali, whose had far greater impact than Berry has. Berry can't hold Hali's jock in that regard.

Mongo
04-13-2014, 11:18 AM
Byrd is a better player than Berry is. Don't care if there is a sucker out there willing to overpay Berry or any Safety. I just hope it's not John Dorsey.

The only Safety that I can see being worth being paid the high dollars is Kam Chancellor & he's rightfully earned it without the hype that Berry comes with.

You are starting to sound like if Berry were ever to come to a sudden halt, then your face would go half-way up his arse. And yet, you suggest the unload Hali, whose had far greater impact than Berry has. Berry can't hold Hali's jock in that regard.
Yes, I'm a fan of Berry. I don't think we've seen the best of him yet and he still is a top ten safety. By the end of his contract Hali will be 32. Sacrifices will be made to correct this cap situation. There's no way around it. Dorsey's chosen to attack it by letting the OL go to scraps.

Given the choice of ascending, young player and a guy entering the twilight of his career, the intelligent choice is to let go of the 32 year old.

Eydugstr
04-13-2014, 11:31 AM
Byrd is a better player than Berry is. Don't care if there is a sucker out there willing to overpay Berry or any Safety. I just hope it's not John Dorsey.

The only Safety that I can see being worth being paid the high dollars is Kam Chancellor & he's rightfully earned it without the hype that Berry comes with.


If Jairus Byrd is worth $9, someone will pay EB in the $10M range.

Okay, now with Daniel Manning being interviewed, and if what Mongo says is true about teams willing to pay EB's salary....

Is it feasible that there is a trade in the works to send Berry somewhere in exchange for draft picks?

Mongo
04-13-2014, 11:35 AM
Okay, now with Daniel Manning being interviewed, and if what Mongo says is true about teams willing to pay EB's salary....

Is it feasible that there is a trade in the works to send Berry somewhere in exchange for draft picks?
You've been reading the Star.

http://www.kansascity.com/2014/04/12/4955845/time-is-right-for-chiefs-to-trade.html

I thought brdempsey wrote this article himself. :D

You don't trade good young players for the opportunity to try and find other good young players. Removing Eric Berry does not make the Chiefs better now or in the future.

Sign Eric Berry now.

Eydugstr
04-13-2014, 12:08 PM
You've been reading the Star.

http://www.kansascity.com/2014/04/12/4955845/time-is-right-for-chiefs-to-trade.html

I thought brdempsey wrote this article himself. :D

You don't trade good young players for the opportunity to try and find other good young players. Removing Eric Berry does not make the Chiefs better now or in the future.

Sign Eric Berry now.

Actually no, hadn't read that. Don't get the paper. And I can tell from looking there's no way hades that Brd wrote that - quoting the article...


Berry is a brand-name in the NFL, a Pro Bowler in each of his three full seasons. He’s versatile, one of only four players last season with at least three sacks, three interceptions and 10 passes defended. His Pro Football Focus grade of 14.5 was tied for third-best among all safeties last season.But you have to give up something to get something. Berry is a good candidate, because his reputation has always been just a bit in front of his actual impact. His peers voted him one of the league’s 100 best players after his rookie year, and he made a Pro Bowl in 2012 despite a mostly mediocre season. Through conversations with NFL personnel men, Berry would likely bring back at least a second- and third-round pick — perhaps more. One scout thought a first-round pick would be possible.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2014/04/12/4955845/time-is-right-for-chiefs-to-trade.html#storylink=cpy


If Brd had wrote that, most of the pro-bowl talk would've been replaced with a flow chart showing the location of the ocean floor, John Elway, Pioli draft picks, and whale poop.

Keep in mind Pioli is taking some of his former draft picks to Atlanta. My point is this, the elements are there, a Berry trade could happen.

brdempsey69
04-13-2014, 12:13 PM
You've been reading the Star.

http://www.kansascity.com/2014/04/12/4955845/time-is-right-for-chiefs-to-trade.html

I thought brdempsey wrote this article himself. :D

You don't trade good young players for the opportunity to try and find other good young players. Removing Eric Berry does not make the Chiefs better now or in the future.

Sign Eric Berry now.

Yes, I saw that article & it makes perfect sense to those that don't have their head up Berry's arse, like you do. You do trade players that are overhyped, overpaid, and do not impact the game hardly ever.

Removing Eric Berry doesn't make them a whole lot worse. Everybody saw how minimal his impact was against the Colts and Broncos. They can easily get a suitable replacement by simply drafting a SS in rounds 2 through 7.

The reality is, signing Eric Berry to the type of contract that you suggested does not make the Chiefs better now or in the future -- it's just flushing dollars down the toilet that can be better spent elsewhere on better players like Alex, Charles, Houston, and Poe.

I hope they don't resign Berry & let him walk just like they did with Albert.

KCWildcat3
04-13-2014, 12:56 PM
Do u guys think Berrys impact would have been greater and more noticable if we had a decent safety opposite of him. If I was a QB or a coach why on earth would I ever test Berry if I know the guy on the other side is a far inferior player.

Just food for thought. What do u guys think?

brdempsey69
04-13-2014, 01:06 PM
Do u guys think Berrys impact would have been greater and more noticable if we had a decent safety opposite of him. If I was a QB or a coach why on earth would I ever test Berry if I know the guy on the other side is a far inferior player.

Just food for thought. What do u guys think?

Didn't stop Luck and Fleener from going after Berry in the playoff game in timely fashion. Of course, it didn't help when Flowers went down and TJ Hilton just tore up the rest of the Chiefs secondary.

Berry is OK to a point. But, he's not the "be all, end all" of Chiefs players & for people to talk about him like he's the 2nd coming of Joe Montana in his prime, is just silly.

My point is, that signing him to a long-term extension like Mongo suggested is ludicrous. The Chiefs franchise is NOT about Eric Berry. In case anyone hasn't noticed, Pioli is no longer the GM. It's John Dorsey, and he's already said that he will build the Chiefs from front to back and inside out through the draft -- meaning that he's more likely to take a Defensive Front 7 player with the top draft pick than other positions.

TopekaRoy
04-13-2014, 01:39 PM
I could see the value in trading Berry if we could unload his salary and get, say, a 2nd, 3rd and 6th pick for him, but I don't think anyone would be willing to do that. Anything less and I would very nervous about it. We literally have no back-up at SS. Abdullah is listed as a FS and Commings is a CB and we have no idea what we have in Commings. I would be a little more comfortable with the idea if we weren't already in need of drafting a FS. If we did make the trade, we would almost have to take a SS and FS in two of the first 3 rounds and hope our first pick isn't a bust.

I'm a firm believer that a strong pass rush makes the secondary better and I would like to beef up the o-line in the draft, but if we lose Berry, already needing to replace Lewis, our draft strategy would have to change. Having a weak or unproven defensive backfield is NOT a good idea in a division with Manning and Rivers.

Mongo
04-13-2014, 01:50 PM
I could see the value in trading Berry if we could unload his salary and get, say, a 2nd, 3rd and 6th pick for him, but I don't think anyone would be willing to do that. Anything less and I would very nervous about it. We literally have no back-up at SS. Abdullah is listed as a FS and Commings is a CB and we have no idea what we have in Commings. I would be a little more comfortable with the idea if we weren't already in need of drafting a FS. If we did make the trade, we would almost have to take a SS and FS in two of the first 3 rounds and hope our first pick isn't a bust.

I'm a firm believer that a strong pass rush makes the secondary better and I would like to beef up the o-line in the draft, but if we lose Berry, already needing to replace Lewis, our draft strategy would have to change. Having a weak or unproven defensive backfield is NOT a good idea in a division with Manning and Rivers.
Exactamundo. What is Ed Reed without the front seven in BAL? What is Polamalu without all of the Steelers upfront over the years?

Just because rules have made it impossible to hold coverage without a pass rush doesn't mean you can just put anyone back there. SEA has proven that the safeties can be an integral part of the defense.

You can't get fair value for EB in a trade. So don't do it.

brdempsey69
04-13-2014, 02:47 PM
Exactamundo. What is Ed Reed without the front seven in BAL? What is Polamalu without all of the Steelers upfront over the years?

Which clearly illustrates that the Safety position & specifically Eric Berry aren't as important as you'd like to think they are & just how ludicrous it is to draft them in the top-10 or pay them 10 mill a season.



Just because rules have made it impossible to hold coverage without a pass rush doesn't mean you can just put anyone back there. SEA has proven that the safeties can be an integral part of the defense.

Seattle also proved in their SB win that pass rushers are still needed regardless of who's playing back there -- hence why they signed Avril and Bennett prior to the 2013. It was pressure from the Defensive front 7 by Seattle that was the biggest reason the Hawks effectively shackled the Donks Offense.

And, if Berry were on Seattle's roster, he would be a backup behind Chancellor and Thomas & with that being the case, there is no way on this green earth anyone can justify the Chiefs continuing to pay Berry 10 mill a season once his rookie contract expires. 5 or 6 mill a year at the most for Berry would be more than reasonable and if he doesn't want that, then he can take a hike -- same as Albert.

I'm suspecting the Chiefs are already looking at drafting his replacement either this year or next season.



You can't get fair value for EB in a trade. So don't do it.

Rubbish. A 2nd rounder from Atlanta in the 2014 draft would be perfectly fair value. But, as TR pointed out, Berry's replacement isn't there..................YET !!

TopekaRoy
04-13-2014, 03:06 PM
Rubbish. A 2nd rounder from Atlanta in the 2014 draft would be perfectly fair value. But, as TR pointed out, Berry's replacement isn't there..................YET !!

And see that's the problem. You probably can't get more than a 2nd rounder for him and if we could replace him with a 2nd or 3rd round pick, why wouldn't a team just draft a SS in that spot rather than take on his $10M+ salary?

I agree that he is way overpaid. I'd go as high as 4 yrs, $25M. Say, 5, 5, 6, and 7 with a $2M signing bonus. Then we could cut him in year 4 and save $7.5 million with prorated bonus. But he could probably get more than that on the open market, so I say keep him one more year and then let him walk.

... Unless someone is dumb enough to offer a 2nd, 3rd, and 6th pick for him. Then jump on it!

brdempsey69
04-13-2014, 03:17 PM
And see that's the problem. You probably can't get more than a 2nd rounder for him and if we could replace him with a 2nd or 3rd round pick, why wouldn't a team just draft a SS in that spot rather than take on his $10M+ salary?

I agree that he is way overpaid. I'd go as high as 4 yrs, $25M. Say, 5, 5, 6, and 7 with a $2M signing bonus. Then we could cut him in year 4 and save $7.5 million with prorated bonus. But he could probably get more than that on the open market, so I say keep him one more year and then let him walk.

... Unless someone is dumb enough to offer a 2nd, 3rd, and 6th pick for him. Then jump on it!

All good points.

Let us consider the DeSean Jackson situation in Philly and his 10 mill a season contract he had in Philly. What happened? Nobody was willing to trade for him & the Eagles cut him and will get nothing in return. Jackson is a far bigger commodity & more of an impact player than Berry is and it's not even close.

So it's logical, like you are suggesting , to let Berry walk and possibly get a compensatory pick, unless some team does make a trade offer that the Chiefs have to consider. But with what I pointed out regarding DeSean Jackson, that's about as likely as a blizzard happening in Hawaii.

I really believe that Dorsey is going to pluck a hidden gem at Safety for the Chiefs in later rounds in this years draft and next years draft. See CB Sam Shields up in GB for an example of that.

TopekaRoy
04-13-2014, 03:23 PM
I really believe that Dorsey is going to pluck a hidden gem at Safety for the Chiefs in later rounds in this years draft and next years draft. See CB Sam Shields up in GB for an example of that.
That's always a possibility. Let's hope so. He has done a good job of planning ahead. He took Fisher knowing he was gonna lose Albert and that looks like it will work out.

I'd feel a lot better letting Berry go, knowing we already have his replacement.

Eydugstr
04-13-2014, 04:50 PM
... Unless someone is dumb enough to offer a 2nd, 3rd, and 6th pick for him. Then jump on it!

Actually, that honor could fall to Scott Pioli, who's already managed to blow 40mil on getting two of his former draft picks back.

brdempsey69
04-13-2014, 05:06 PM
Actually, that honor could fall to Scott Pioli, who's already managed to blow 40mil on getting two of his former draft picks back.

That's right and it just shows you how stubborn Pioli is. He could have easily gotten equal caliber players to Tyson Jackson & Asamoah for half of that price. It does make you wonder how long it will be before the banners start flying over Atlanta.

brdempsey69
04-13-2014, 11:48 PM
That's always a possibility. Let's hope so. He has done a good job of planning ahead. He took Fisher knowing he was gonna lose Albert and that looks like it will work out.

I'd feel a lot better letting Berry go, knowing we already have his replacement.

I do know that they've private visits with guys like Lonnie Ballentine, DB, Memphis & Sammy Seamster, DB, Middle Tennessee State, so that would indicate that they are indeed looking for those diamonds in the rough. Plus, it can't be forgotten that when Reid was in Philly, they signed Nnamdi Asomugha & traded for DRC and it backfired on them, with what they paid out. So I don't believe that Dorsey/Want to go the route of high-priced DB's for the Chiefs.

Eydugstr
04-14-2014, 08:07 AM
Do u guys think Berrys impact would have been greater and more noticable if we had a decent safety opposite of him. If I was a QB or a coach why on earth would I ever test Berry if I know the guy on the other side is a far inferior player.

Just food for thought. What do u guys think?

It's possible. Either way we need to find a replacement for Kendrick Lewis, but if we go that route, I think the biggest improvement wouldn't be in the passing defense, it'd be the run defense. KL was not an aggressive tackler. The way to make Berry look a whole lot better is to beef up the pass rush.

Seek
04-14-2014, 09:00 AM
All good points.

Let us consider the DeSean Jackson situation in Philly and his 10 mill a season contract he had in Philly. What happened? Nobody was willing to trade for him & the Eagles cut him and will get nothing in return. Jackson is a far bigger commodity & more of an impact player than Berry is and it's not even close.

So it's logical, like you are suggesting , to let Berry walk and possibly get a compensatory pick, unless some team does make a trade offer that the Chiefs have to consider. But with what I pointed out regarding DeSean Jackson, that's about as likely as a blizzard happening in Hawaii.

I really believe that Dorsey is going to pluck a hidden gem at Safety for the Chiefs in later rounds in this years draft and next years draft. See CB Sam Shields up in GB for an example of that.

That is not a fair comparision at least not as far as character issues, but I agree EB would never get a good return values. Jackson had rumors of Gang ties and known character issues in the locker room including with his coach. He was also looking to hold out for a new contract. There was also conflicting reports about him being traded or staying. Eric Berry is a team leader. Regardless of position or value to a team. Jackson had other baggage tied to him that Eric would not.

That being said, the Chiefs signed 7 players after they made cuts last year with two of them becoming substantial players for us. Marcus Cooper and Sean McGrath and we also picked up some other key players off the "Scrap Heap" like Schwartz, Demps, Zombo and Abdullah adding depth to our team.

I think Dorsey very well may be able to evaluate quality talent to find us talent not easily noticeable. He very well could find us a starting FS with our 4th or 5th round picks.

brdempsey69
04-14-2014, 11:50 AM
That is not a fair comparision at least not as far as character issues, but I agree EB would never get a good return values. Jackson had rumors of Gang ties and known character issues in the locker room including with his coach. He was also looking to hold out for a new contract. There was also conflicting reports about him being traded or staying. Eric Berry is a team leader. Regardless of position or value to a team. Jackson had other baggage tied to him that Eric would not.

That being said, the Chiefs signed 7 players after they made cuts last year with two of them becoming substantial players for us. Marcus Cooper and Sean McGrath and we also picked up some other key players off the "Scrap Heap" like Schwartz, Demps, Zombo and Abdullah adding depth to our team.

I think Dorsey very well may be able to evaluate quality talent to find us talent not easily noticeable. He very well could find us a starting FS with our 4th or 5th round picks.

True, Berry is the better character guy, but he doesn't impact the game the way that Jackson could. People are talking silly nonsense about letting Bowe and Hali go just for the sake of retaining Berry at about the same cost, but are forgetting that Bowe and Hali have a bigger impact in the Chiefs games on a regular basis than Berry does.

In fact, the biggest impact play that Berry probably made last year was when he KO'd Justin Houston in the first SD game ( thanks, the Chiefs needed that ) and I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned that.

I don't believe the Chiefs will be able to trade him, unless Pioli wants him in Atlanta, but I don't believe the Chiefs will retain Berry once his contract is done, either.

People are overlooking the fact that if Dorsey/Reid had been making that #5 overall pick in 2010, they would have taken Okung with that pick and not Berry. Whether people like it or not, a parting of the ways with Berry is lurking on the horizon, but like TR said, the Chiefs need to get some replacements on board and be prepared for that and same with Hali and Bowe and Flowers.

KCWildcat3
04-15-2014, 11:27 AM
No DB can cover for as long as they were being asked too towards the end of last season. Beef up the pass rush and our secondary will flourish again. Watch the first half of the season and that's obvious. I don't think it's smart to let a team leader and really good football player walk only to take a chance on some other people that may or may not pan out. When u get great players u need to retain them. For the right price Berry should remain a Chief.

brdempsey69
04-15-2014, 12:07 PM
No DB can cover for as long as they were being asked too towards the end of last season. Beef up the pass rush and our secondary will flourish again. Watch the first half of the season and that's obvious. I don't think it's smart to let a team leader and really good football player walk only to take a chance on some other people that may or may not pan out. When u get great players u need to retain them. For the right price Berry should remain a Chief.

That's the problem. His asking price may be too high once his rookie contract expires -- just like Albert's was. You are quite correct about beefing up the pass-rush & they can't just let Berry walk right now because they don't have anybody else.

I don't agree about Berry being "great". He's OK to a point, but he's not irreplaceable. The Chiefs Defense in 2011 had it's share of superb performances without him.

It's looking more and more like the Chiefs need to go heavy on Defense in the next two drafts and brace themselves for the eventual departures of guys like Hali, Flowers, DJ, and Berry.

Mongo
04-15-2014, 12:38 PM
That's the problem. His asking price may be too high once his rookie contract expires -- just like Albert's was. You are quite correct about beefing up the pass-rush & they can't just let Berry walk right now because they don't have anybody else.

I don't agree about Berry being "great". He's OK to a point, but he's not irreplaceable. The Chiefs Defense in 2011 had it's share of superb performances without him.

It's looking more and more like the Chiefs need to go heavy on Defense in the next two drafts and brace themselves for the eventual departures of guys like Hali, Flowers, DJ, and Berry.
Yep, the defense will need to turn over personnel in the next few years. Unfortunately the Chiefs have put themselves in the bad position of having to use this year’s draft to address immediate needs. This minus their R2.

OL depth and WR are sorely needed and undermine any notion of planning ahead. I love the Steelers way of drafting “the next guy up” in advance. In fairness to Dorsey, I believe he does too. Guys like Tuitt or Hageman are guys I like as much as you, but may not be as high on KC’s board due to need. They may stay put with Walker, Bailey, Devito and Catapano.

If the media is to be believed (BIG IFFFFFF) then there may be some good news. The QB class may slide as a whole which may put KC in a great position to trade down from R1.23 and recoup an R3.

If that happens, then KC could take Tuitt and still address OG and WR and come away with some immediate help.

PS: Tuitt has continually slid during “the process” it seems. I recall him being a top 20 prospect before “it” began. Any idea why? A 34DE who generates a pass rush is a valuable commodity.

ctchiefsfan
04-15-2014, 12:58 PM
No DB can cover for as long as they were being asked too towards the end of last season. Beef up the pass rush and our secondary will flourish again. Watch the first half of the season and that's obvious. I don't think it's smart to let a team leader and really good football player walk only to take a chance on some other people that may or may not pan out. When u get great players u need to retain them. For the right price Berry should remain a Chief.

I agree with you, Keeping Berry would be a good thing, but brdempsey is also correct. Berry is probably going to be looking for a huge score in his next contract and I simply doubt we are going to be able to pay the kind of money he wants.

His cap number this year per overthecap.com http://overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Eric%20Berry&Position=S&Team=Chiefs is $11.6 million and his average cap number for the contract was something like $8.5 million. I imagine he'll be looking for a contract that averages well over $10 million per year and is heavily front-loaded with guaranteed money to the first 3 years of the contract. And some team will almost assuredly offer that to him....and I am pretty sure he and his agent know that.

Is he really worth that kind of money????

IMO no. I mean really.....how many $10 million per year guys can we afford? IMO (and it is my understanding that this is the way Dorsey tends to think) the money is better spent on a defensive line that can put heavy pressure on the opposing QB.

The salary cap sucks, but it is "the law of the land" and that forces teams to make tough choices about who to keep and who to let go. And that is all made worse by some of the teams that spend money like drunken sailors in a whore house that spend INSANE money on players that are nothing more than "a good bit above average". It makes other players and agents look at contracts that people have gotten and say "I'm at least as good and probably better than he is so I am worth more money".

If you want to be honest, of the players we have whose cap number is over $5 million, Alex Smith (cap number next year $8 million) is probably one of the best values we have.

Is Eric Berry really worth more than Alex Smith?????

ctchiefsfan
04-15-2014, 01:06 PM
Yep, the defense will need to turn over personnel in the next few years. Unfortunately the Chiefs have put themselves in the bad position of having to use this year’s draft to address immediate needs. This minus their R2.

OL depth and WR are sorely needed and undermine any notion of planning ahead. I love the Steelers way of drafting “the next guy up” in advance. In fairness to Dorsey, I believe he does too. Guys like Tuitt or Hageman are guys I like as much as you, but may not be as high on KC’s board due to need. They may stay put with Walker, Bailey, Devito and Catapano.

If the media is to be believed (BIG IFFFFFF) then there may be some good news. The QB class may slide as a whole which may put KC in a great position to trade down from R1.23 and recoup an R3.

If that happens, then KC could take Tuitt and still address OG and WR and come away with some immediate help.

PS: Tuitt has continually slid during “the process” it seems. I recall him being a top 20 prospect before “it” began. Any idea why? A 34DE who generates a pass rush is a valuable commodity.

Dorsey is paying the price for the Pioli years and the last years of King Carl. It sucks, but it is what it is. Hopefully he can get the ship righted before the fan base starts demanding his head on a platter.

brdempsey69
04-15-2014, 01:16 PM
Yep, the defense will need to turn over personnel in the next few years. Unfortunately the Chiefs have put themselves in the bad position of having to use this year’s draft to address immediate needs. This minus their R2.

OL depth and WR are sorely needed and undermine any notion of planning ahead. I love the Steelers way of drafting “the next guy up” in advance. In fairness to Dorsey, I believe he does too. Guys like Tuitt or Hageman are guys I like as much as you, but may not be as high on KC’s board due to need. They may stay put with Walker, Bailey, Devito and Catapano.

If the media is to be believed (BIG IFFFFFF) then there may be some good news. The QB class may slide as a whole which may put KC in a great position to trade down from R1.23 and recoup an R3.

If that happens, then KC could take Tuitt and still address OG and WR and come away with some immediate help.

PS: Tuitt has continually slid during “the process” it seems. I recall him being a top 20 prospect before “it” began. Any idea why? A 34DE who generates a pass rush is a valuable commodity.

Durability concerns, although Tuitt didn't miss any games. Jones fracture in one of his feet discovered at the combine, which has been surgically repaired. I don't believe Tuitt will fall out of the 1st round & I believe Seattle having lost Chris Clemons and Red Bryant would have to consider Tuitt if he were there at #32. I know that NE is interested, but it's also been said by their fans that an off-the-edge pass rusher is a bigger need.

The more I think about it, the more it appears that staying at #23 and taking whomever is really starting to stink. I'm really hoping for a trade-down and getting more picks, just like you said, because of the needs across the board. And the QB's falling to #23 is a VERY strong possibility that could create that scenario.

And I can't help but think what happens if the Chiefs stay at #23 and the guy that they take doesn't pan out, then they are going to be screwed royally & any draft prospect can bust.

Therefore, if (hypothetically) some team at the top of the 2nd round wants to trade up to the Chiefs spot at #23, IF one those QB's falls and the offer they Chiefs a 3rd, 4th, and maybe a 5th or 6th, in addition to that pick at the top of round 2 --- TAKE IT !!!




Is Eric Berry really worth more than Alex Smith?????

I'm sorry, but NO. And same for Poe and Houston. And by the end of 2014, we may just have to add Stephenson to that list, as he's already proving to be a very valuable commodity given the fact that he can play on either side of the O-Line.

ctchiefsfan
04-15-2014, 01:25 PM
Durability concerns, although Tuitt didn't miss any games. Jones fracture in one of his feet discovered at the combine, which has been surgically repaired. I don't believe Tuitt will fall out of the 1st round & I believe Seattle having lost Chris Clemons and Red Bryant would have to consider Tuitt if he were there at #32. I know that NE is interested, but it's also been said by their fans

The more I think about it, the more it appears that staying at #23 and taking whomever is really starting to stink. I'm really hoping for a trade-down and getting more picks, just like you said, because of the needs across the board. And the QB's falling to #23 is a VERY strong possibility that could create that scenario.

And I can't help but think what happens if the Chiefs stay at #23 and the guy that they take doesn't pan out, then they are going to be screwed royally & any draft prospect can bust.

Therefore, if (hypothetically) some team at the top of the 2nd round wants to trade up to the Chiefs spot at #23, IF one those QB's falls and the offer the Chiefs a 3rd, 4th, and maybe a 5th or 6th, in addition to that pick at the top of round 2 --- TAKE IT !!!

Yup....trading down is starting to look like a very good idea. A 2cond this year plus several picks next year would be very interesting. We're already going to have 3 or 4 compensatory picks in 2015. Toss in a few more for trading down this year and we would be eating high on the hog in the 2015 draft. The fact that we will probably be picking higher in the draft in 2015 doesn't hurt either.

Mongo
04-15-2014, 01:28 PM
Yup....trading down is starting to look like a very good idea. A 2cond this year plus several picks next year would be very interesting. We're already going to have 3 or 4 compensatory picks in 2015. Toss in a few more for trading down this year and we would be eating high on the hog in the 2015 draft. The fact that we will probably be picking higher in the draft in 2015 doesn't hurt either.
I’m not interested in a trade down for 2015 picks. Dorsey needs ammo now!

ctchiefsfan
04-15-2014, 01:36 PM
I'm sorry, but NO. And same for Poe and Houston. And by the end of 2014, we may just have to add Stephenson to that list, as he's already proving to be a very valuable commodity given the fact that he can play on either side of the O-Line.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. There is limited money and more players we want to keep than their is money. That means that some of the names we all know and love are going to have to go. From a purely cost/value analysis point I think Berry is pretty high on the list of names that may need to go. I don't like it one damned bit, but this is the nature of football under the salary cap.

brdempsey69
04-15-2014, 01:38 PM
Yup....trading down is starting to look like a very good idea. A 2cond this year plus several picks next year would be very interesting. We're already going to have 3 or 4 compensatory picks in 2015. Toss in a few more for trading down this year and we would be eating high on the hog in the 2015 draft. The fact that we will probably be picking higher in the draft in 2015 doesn't hurt either.

Actually, I'm referring to getting extra picks in THIS draft, because it is becoming quite clear that 6 picks in 2014, isn't going to feed the bulldog.

I know that many of us, myself included, have a liking for a particular player or particular players that we'd like to see drafted at #23, BUT, looking at the bigger overall picture, what's really going to be the decisive factor is the OVERALL group of football players that they come out of this draft with, not who they take specifically with their top draft pick.

With that said, I'm hopeful of a trade-down and getting extra 2014 draft picks.

ctchiefsfan
04-15-2014, 01:40 PM
I’m not interested in a trade down for 2015 picks. Dorsey needs ammo now!


With that said, I'm hopeful of a trade-down and getting extra 2014 draft picks.

I also would prefer picks now. I'm sure Dorsey would too. This appears to be a FAT draft. But if the best offer we can get for trading down is a high 2cond now and several picks in 2015 then I still think it would be worth considering. But yes....a mid to high 2cond now plus 1 to 3 later picks would be much better. Maybe a mid 2cond and 3rd now plus a pick in 2015?

Eydugstr
04-15-2014, 07:53 PM
I’m not interested in a trade down for 2015 picks. Dorsey needs ammo now!

Agreed. If a trade occurs, I'd put a priority on getting second & third rounders this year to re-stock the shelves.

KCWildcat3
04-15-2014, 09:48 PM
I understand Berry will want some money but if it comes down to it. Would u throw the money at Flowers or Berry? I think Berry is much more irreplaceable than Flowers at this point. Especially with the change in scheme.

brdempsey69
04-15-2014, 10:19 PM
I understand Berry will want some money but if it comes down to it. Would u throw the money at Flowers or Berry? I think Berry is much more irreplaceable than Flowers at this point. Especially with the change in scheme.

Probably will have to wait until the 2014 season is over to find out. Both are making aroung 10 mill a season, as it stands right now & if I'm right about both their contracts expiring after 2015, there's a possibility that the Chiefs may not be able to afford either of them. Alex, Houston, and Poe have to be at the top priorities to get long-term deals done with and they aren't going to come cheap. And I'll throw a surprise player out there, whose stock I believe is also going to be rising fast and that's Donald Stephenson, because when you have an athletic Tackle that can play either side like he can, his value is sure to rocket upwards in the eyes of Dorsey/Reid.

Mongo
04-16-2014, 03:02 PM
When you look at Bowe's contract it's hard to envision him coming back next year unless he puts up ridiculous numbers. He'll still carry a $14M cap figure and the Chiefs will be able to save $3.5M by cutting him.

http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Dwayne%20Bowe&Position=WR&Team=Chiefs

Same with Flowers. $11.5M cap versus $7.5M savings.
http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Brandon%20Flowers&Position=CB&Team=Chiefs

And Hali. $11.96M cap versus $9M savings.
http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Tamba%20Hali&Position=34OLB&Team=Chiefs

Hali and Flowers are gone for sure. Maybe Bowe stays for one more year.

KCWildcat3
04-16-2014, 03:18 PM
I mean maybe I'm a homer for Berry. But I would much rather retain Houston, Poe, Smith and Berry as opposed to the first three plus Bowe or Flowers. I love Flowers but he doesn't fit the system anymore. And Bowe is never going to be elite.

TopekaRoy
04-16-2014, 03:49 PM
I think we need to draft so that we have replacements for all of our highest players, but that doesn't mean we have to lose them all. Letting two of them go will probably free up enough cap space to resign a couple of the others. Unless Bowe has a career year, he will probably be let go in 2015. Unless Berry is willing to restructure at a lower salary, he will probably be gone after this season. Those two moves, along with some smaller moves and the annual increase in the cap will be enough to retain Houston and get 2 or 3 more years from Alex.

As for the others--Hali, Flowers, Charles, Poe, etc. release whoever has the best back-ups in place and you have more money to resign whoever we keep.

So plan on losing them all, but for every player you release, you have that much more money to resign a player you want to keep. We were very fortunate to lose Albert and McCluster and have it not really hurt us. Some of the others won't be that easy to replace. It will come down to who and how well Dorsy drafts.

brdempsey69
04-16-2014, 04:07 PM
One guy over at Arrowhead Addict posed the best question, as far as who stays and who goes.


it all depends on what you want from the Chiefs. Do you want some players to worship or do you want to win consistently and qualify for a super bowl?

And I do not believe anybody is going to restructure, especially Berry, because he knows that Pioli is down there in Atlanta and will pay him.

ctchiefsfan
04-16-2014, 05:11 PM
When you look at Bowe's contract it's hard to envision him coming back next year unless he puts up ridiculous numbers. He'll still carry a $14M cap figure and the Chiefs will be able to save $3.5M by cutting him.

http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Dwayne%20Bowe&Position=WR&Team=Chiefs

Exactly. We have NO CHOICE but to keep him this year (2014 season). But for 2015 if he had a really good year this year (2014) then we could either keep him or maybe have a decent chance of trading him. If he had a crappy 2014 then the cap hit is maybe small enough that we could cut him. When it comes to Bowe, we have options for 2015 and beyond, but none this year (2014 season)


Same with Flowers. $11.5M cap versus $7.5M savings.
http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Brandon%20Flowers&Position=CB&Team=Chiefs

Yes. Flowers contract is somewhat similar but cutting him after the 2014 season would yield more than double the cap savings of cutting Bowe.



And Hali. $11.96M cap versus $9M savings.
http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Tamba%20Hali&Position=34OLB&Team=Chiefs

Yes. Hali would yield cap savings of $9 million if he was cut before the 2015 season.

So at the start of next season (2015 season) we have 3 veterans who if cut would save us $29 million in cap space (roughly 22% of the current total cap). Additionally, all of them will be young enough DB-30; BF-29; TH-31 that with their lowered cap numbers they might draw some interest as trade bait....especially if they had a good 2014 season.

This puts Dorsey in a pretty good position at the start of next season (2015 season). He'll have money to pay newly minted Free Agents that have really stepped up, he'll have money to pay Alex Smith for a new 2-3 year contract (unless we win the Super Bowl this year--2014 season) and he'll even have some money to toss at some "name brand" Free Agents.

Oh....and just for giggles, he'll have 3, maybe 4 compensatory picks in the draft that year.

Personally, I LIKE the looks of that.


Hali and Flowers are gone for sure. Maybe Bowe stays for one more year.

Maybe. Maybe not. But I won't be crying in my beer if that is how it turns out. Especially if we get some good production from these three this year. And phsycologically all three of them should be wanting to "step up" this year knowing (as they should) that they may be looking for a new team next year.

Teams that get a new GM and HC in the same year generally get "blown up" and started from scratch. Reid and Dorsey haven't done that. They took good advantage of what we had last year (2013 season) when we had an "easy schedule", kept as many of our "name players" as they could for this year (2014 season) and if Dorsey is half as good at judging talent as he is supposed to be then the Chiefs should be a truly serious competitor for 2015-2019.

Yeah....I like what our new management is doing and while you disagree, I think Andy Reid is the right guy in the right place at the right time.

GO CHIEFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mongo
04-16-2014, 09:47 PM
I mean maybe I'm a homer for Berry. But I would much rather retain Houston, Poe, Smith and Berry as opposed to the first three plus Bowe or Flowers. I love Flowers but he doesn't fit the system anymore. And Bowe is never going to be elite.
You don't have to apologize for appreciating Eric Berry and wanting to keep him.

ctchiefsfan
04-16-2014, 10:24 PM
Berry is a fine player and has been a great Chief. But in the end, football is a business....to the players, to the owners and to the NFL. And the salary cap means Berry will almost assuredly wind up going elsewhere. He won't be the first player I'll be sorry to see leave and he won't be the last.

brdempsey69
04-17-2014, 12:23 AM
Berry is a fine player and has been a great Chief. But in the end, football is a business....to the players, to the owners and to the NFL. And the salary cap means Berry will almost assuredly wind up going elsewhere. He won't be the first player I'll be sorry to see leave and he won't be the last.

One player that I hated seeing leave was John Tait after the 2003 season. You knew that Willie Roaf was nearing retirement & by letting Tait walk, they had no replacement for Roaf when he retired, and the downhill slide started once Will Shields also retired a year later.

Eydugstr
04-17-2014, 08:11 AM
One player that I hated seeing leave was John Tait after the 2003 season. You knew that Willie Roaf was nearing retirement & by letting Tait walk, they had no replacement for Roaf when he retired, and the downhill slide started once Will Shields also retired a year later.

+1. It was one thing to see Tait go, he'd had some issues with Peterson, but when they didn't draft a replacement for him on the OL the red flags went up for me. They didn't seriously address the O-line again until Pioli's (?!?!!) last year.

brdempsey69
04-17-2014, 09:50 AM
+1. It was one thing to see Tait go, he'd had some issues with Peterson, but when they didn't draft a replacement for him on the OL the red flags went up for me. They didn't seriously address the O-line again until Pioli's (?!?!!) last year.

That's right and it was a major factor in the Chiefs having the worst record in the AFC from 2007 - 2012.

KCWildcat3
04-18-2014, 03:15 AM
I think with the cap space that letting Flowers go creates, the potential of drafting a corner early is very very high. I wouldn't be surprised at all if by some chance at 23 Dennard is the choice over a receiver or a lineman. I know it's not likely Dennard is still there but stranger things have happened.

Mongo
04-18-2014, 02:42 PM
I remember the sick feeling I had in my stomach when I learned Dale Carter had signed with Broncos. Neil Smith was similar but he was near the end of his career. At the time Carter was near the top of his game. He did nothing in DEN though.

Pro_Angler
04-19-2014, 04:36 AM
Well get WR lee 1st rd. Basentinel safety in 5th. Corner in 3rd if don't trade up to 2nd rd to get one. Were screwed for atleast 2 years. Owner ship and managed t fi r this team sucks!!

ctchiefsfan
04-19-2014, 12:23 PM
I don't really see how you can say that management sucks. Yeah, we are in a hole for draft picks and cap space, but a lot of that is Pioli, and with the trade for Alex Smith it's also the price we are paying for last seasons turnaround. I mean come on...be real....Dorsey and Reid have been running the show for 1 year and we went from 2-14 to 11-6 and came closer to winning a playoff game than we have in 20 years. Just how much did you expect Reid and Dorsey to accomplish in 1 year?

brdempsey69
04-19-2014, 02:36 PM
I don't really see how you can say that management sucks. Yeah, we are in a hole for draft picks and cap space, but a lot of that is Pioli, and with the trade for Alex Smith it's also the price we are paying for last seasons turnaround. I mean come on...be real....Dorsey and Reid have been running the show for 1 year and we went from 2-14 to 11-6 and came closer to winning a playoff game than we have in 20 years. Just how much did you expect Reid and Dorsey to accomplish in 1 year?

Plus, let us not forget Pioli's "Alvin and the Chipmunks" 2010 draft that did almost nothing to improve this team and just about every one of those picks has washed out completely, with only Alvin, er I mean Berry, the only one left and his departure is lurking on the horizon.

ctchiefsfan
04-20-2014, 01:05 AM
Exactly. Criticizing Reid and Dorsey at this point is just not reasonable. Teams that get a new GM and new coach traditionally get "blown up". Reid and Dorsey have not done that. They got us a fun year and now they are getting down to the hard work....trying to make us a real competitor. There will be some bumps on the road, probably this year. But I like where the management and coaching is taking this team.

matthewschiefs
04-20-2014, 09:54 PM
Exactly. Criticizing Reid and Dorsey at this point is just not reasonable. Teams that get a new GM and new coach traditionally get "blown up". Reid and Dorsey have not done that. They got us a fun year and now they are getting down to the hard work....trying to make us a real competitor. There will be some bumps on the road, probably this year. But I like where the management and coaching is taking this team.

Agree 100%

In the one year that Reid and Dorsey have been with the Chiefs they took a 2-14 football team to the playoffs. You can say that the team was better then 2 wins in 2012 all you want. The bottom line is they won 2 football games and lost 14 in 2012. So Dorsey and Reid did something better then Pioli and Romeo.So right now the worst thing you can honestly say is Nice start.

Is it to soon to crown them the kings yep. There's still more work to do. But so far they are off to a great start. The Cap situation to me isn't a big factor at all. As I've said what will decided Dorsey's fate is if he drafts well. He's just not going to bring in a ton of free agents. That's just what some are going to have to get use to. It's how he learned to do things in Green Bay. It's how he has said he's going to do things in KC. But if he's going to go that route he's going to have to be very good at drafting. It's that simple for him.

ctchiefsfan
04-21-2014, 12:33 AM
YUP! Dorsey thinks he can build a team through the draft. And Reid thinks he can coach players to their maximum potential. Maybe they can and maybe they can't. But as far as I am concerned they have earned a few years to prove it. They accomplished a lot in year 1.

And I will say it right here right now......I like Andy Reid. I think he is a great coach and i think he is going to get us out of the hell we Chiefs fans have been living in for 20 years.

Super Bowl? Maybe. But i am so beat up that right now all I want is that playoff win. Then we can talk Super Bowl.

Eydugstr
04-21-2014, 03:06 AM
YUP! Dorsey thinks he can build a team through the draft. And Reid thinks he can coach players to their maximum potential. Maybe they can and maybe they can't. But as far as I am concerned they have earned a few years to prove it. They accomplished a lot in year 1.

And I will say it right here right now......I like Andy Reid. I think he is a great coach and i think he is going to get us out of the hell we Chiefs fans have been living in for 20 years.

Super Bowl? Maybe. But i am so beat up that right now all I want is that playoff win. Then we can talk Super Bowl.


Agree 100%

In the one year that Reid and Dorsey have been with the Chiefs they took a 2-14 football team to the playoffs. You can say that the team was better then 2 wins in 2012 all you want. The bottom line is they won 2 football games and lost 14 in 2012. So Dorsey and Reid did something better then Pioli and Romeo.So right now the worst thing you can honestly say is Nice start.

Is it to soon to crown them the kings yep. There's still more work to do. But so far they are off to a great start. The Cap situation to me isn't a big factor at all. As I've said what will decided Dorsey's fate is if he drafts well. He's just not going to bring in a ton of free agents. That's just what some are going to have to get use to. It's how he learned to do things in Green Bay. It's how he has said he's going to do things in KC. But if he's going to go that route he's going to have to be very good at drafting. It's that simple for him.

THIS and THIS. Can't wait for the draft. Dorsey's going to be under the microscope, but so be it.

brdempsey69
04-21-2014, 03:37 AM
Dorsey will not spend big money in FA, but he's already shown that he'll get solid FA's at reasonable costs, but he wants to get his core players through the draft, same as they've done in GB and Seattle. The Bowe situation was one where I believe they were over a barrel somewhat because the Chiefs just didn't have anybody else & I believe they suspected Baldwin wasn't going to pan out.

ctchiefsfan
04-21-2014, 11:47 AM
Dorsey will not spend big money in FA, but he's already shown that he'll get solid FA's at reasonable costs, but he wants to get his core players through the draft, same as they've done in GB and Seattle.

Exactly so. He is happy to pick up "bargain basement" free agents when they are available to use for depth or to plug a hole with a serviceable player, but I do not think we'll see him throwing boatloads of cash at top tier free agents. It just doesn't seem to be what he believes in.



The Bowe situation was one where I believe they were over a barrel somewhat because the Chiefs just didn't have anybody else & I believe they suspected Baldwin wasn't going to pan out.

Hit the nail on the head IMO. Circumstances pretty much forced Dorsey to keep him. I just hope Bowe will live up to the payday he got.

brdempsey69
04-21-2014, 01:34 PM
Would love to see the Chiefs pick this WR up in round 3, if he's still on the board. Great fit at 6-2, 220 lbs, 4.4 speed, good route runner, willing blocker in the running game. Not necessarily an instant impact player in year 1, but by year 2 he could special.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/0ap2000000341041/2014-Draft-Profile-WR-Donte-Moncrief-Ole-Miss

Mongo
04-21-2014, 08:12 PM
Would love to see the Chiefs pick this WR up in round 3, if he's still on the board. Great fit at 6-2, 220 lbs, 4.4 speed, good route runner, willing blocker in the running game. Not necessarily an instant impact player in year 1, but by year 2 he could special.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/0ap2000000341041/2014-Draft-Profile-WR-Donte-Moncrief-Ole-Miss

I'm warming up to taking the BPAN-other-WR with the first pick and waiting on a WR. Moncrief would be on that list.

ctchiefsfan
04-21-2014, 08:24 PM
Moncrief in the 3rd wouldn't bother me a bit, though I am hoping Dressler will turn out to have been a great find. I guess that right now I am more worried about Defense than Offense.

brdempsey69
04-21-2014, 09:12 PM
In the bigger scheme of things, I'm not so much worried about who they take with the top draft pick, but the overall group of players that they come away with. Looking at how Seattle has repeatedly hit on those later choices with guys like Richard Sherman and Russell Wilson and SB MVP Malcom Smith was a 7th rounder. This is the type of drafting the Chiefs need to do and something Pioli wasn't capable of.

ctchiefsfan
04-21-2014, 10:19 PM
Pioli couldn't do it in his dreams. It's what Dorsey is supposed to be good at and it's also what the Chiefs need most. Time will tell, but I'm hoping Dorsey turns out to be every bit as good as has been said.

brdempsey69
04-21-2014, 11:44 PM
Pioli couldn't do it in his dreams. It's what Dorsey is supposed to be good at and it's also what the Chiefs need most. Time will tell, but I'm hoping Dorsey turns out to be every bit as good as has been said.

Watch Atlanta, under Pioli's influence, not take a Tackle, even though they need one and Matt Ryan will suffer for it.

Mongo
04-22-2014, 12:59 AM
Moncrief in the 3rd wouldn't bother me a bit, though I am hoping Dressler will turn out to have been a great find. I guess that right now I am more worried about Defense than Offense.

The new Bobby Sippio! Don't bank on it. I will give odds that Dressler is not on the 53.

ctchiefsfan
04-22-2014, 02:08 AM
Watch Atlanta, under Pioli's influence, not take a Tackle, even though they need one and Matt Ryan will suffer for it.

Atlanta is screwed. They have Piloi and TG is gone. 10 first round picks wouldn't save them.

ctchiefsfan
04-22-2014, 02:19 AM
I will give odds that Dressler is not on the 53.

Not a bad bet. But he is cheap and looks like he has potential. So bringing him in was a good idea. This is what Dorsey is supposed to be good at.....finding gold nuggets where others see only a slag heap. And if he doesn't make the cut then what did he cost us? Not enough to make a difference in the free agent market....that's for sure. So the downside to Dressler is we lose next to nothing and get nothing. The upside is maybe we get a solid contributor on Special Teams (or maybe as a receiver) for dirt cheap. Good gamble in my mind.

KCWildcat3
04-22-2014, 10:45 AM
What do u guys think about beig able to move back a few slots and grab Jimmy Ward. And maybe being able to grab Moncrief or Huff in the 3rd. I saw recently a mock that had no QBs going in the first. I think if pick 23 comes around and the QBs are still on the board were gunna have teams calling about trading up to get the guy they want. I would be pleased with ward and a WR to start te draft.

I know Ward is kinda a hard to pick to gauge where he will go but with the amount of safety activity during Free Agency he might slip. I would love to get Pryor but would be happy with Ward also because he can play man coverage.

brdempsey69
04-22-2014, 12:44 PM
What do u guys think about beig able to move back a few slots and grab Jimmy Ward. And maybe being able to grab Moncrief or Huff in the 3rd. I saw recently a mock that had no QBs going in the first. I think if pick 23 comes around and the QBs are still on the board were gunna have teams calling about trading up to get the guy they want. I would be pleased with ward and a WR to start te draft.

I know Ward is kinda a hard to pick to gauge where he will go but with the amount of safety activity during Free Agency he might slip. I would love to get Pryor but would be happy with Ward also because he can play man coverage.

I believe that if they wanted to take Ward, they would be best served to trade down into the 2nd round like you suggested. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see them wait until later rounds to take DB's given the players that they've had private visits with.

Don't know if Moncrief will make it to round 3, but there is a good chance that the Wisconsin WR, Jared Abbrederis will. Polished route runner with 4.45 speed that needs a year in the weight room, but by year two would probably be a starter. Tore up Ohio State last year with 10 catches and 207 yards.

But like you said about a trade-down, a QB could fall or there could be a CB that falls ( Dennard of Mich. St.) to #23 that SF might want to come up to get & they have the ammo to make Dorsey an offer he probably won't be able to refuse.

Seek
04-22-2014, 12:55 PM
Rumors have it that during the extension talkes yesterday, the Chiefs did contact Eric Berry asking for an extension, and he refused it and is basically trying to force the Chiefs to over spend just as Pioli did for him in the first place and will probably test Free agency.

So considering the cap hits, Berry, Flowers and Shawn Smith bring to this team. I wouldn't be shocked to see the Chiefs go Corner or safety with the first over all. I think they believe the receiver position is better off than most think. I also think they are looking for a replacement at OLB to replace Hali.

This team was one of the youngest in the league last year. I believe they are looking to get younger and cheaper.

brdempsey69
04-22-2014, 01:43 PM
Rumors have it that during the extension talkes yesterday, the Chiefs did contact Eric Berry asking for an extension, and he refused it and is basically trying to force the Chiefs to over spend just as Pioli did for him in the first place and will probably test Free agency.

So considering the cap hits, Berry, Flowers and Shawn Smith bring to this team. I wouldn't be shocked to see the Chiefs go Corner or safety with the first over all. I think they believe the receiver position is better off than most think. I also think they are looking for a replacement at OLB to replace Hali.

This team was one of the youngest in the league last year. I believe they are looking to get younger and cheaper.

TopekaRoy had said the same thing & with Alex, Poe, and Justin Houston being higher priorities, my prediction of a parting of the ways may come to pass. In fact, he could very well be draft day trade-bait in a couple of weeks.

Berry is a solid contributor on the Defense, but he's not the "be all, end all" of the Chiefs Defense, nor is he irreplaceable like a great many seem to think. And Dorsey is NOT going to overspend on Berry and wouldn't have drafted him with that #5 overall pick in 2010, anyway. People had better get it figured out that Dorsey isn't going to cater to the hero-worshipers or fantasy footballers when it comes to building the Chiefs.

Eydugstr
04-22-2014, 02:52 PM
Rumors have it that during the extension talkes yesterday, the Chiefs did contact Eric Berry asking for an extension, and he refused it and is basically trying to force the Chiefs to over spend just as Pioli did for him in the first place and will probably test Free agency.

So considering the cap hits, Berry, Flowers and Shawn Smith bring to this team. I wouldn't be shocked to see the Chiefs go Corner or safety with the first over all. I think they believe the receiver position is better off than most think. I also think they are looking for a replacement at OLB to replace Hali.

This team was one of the youngest in the league last year. I believe they are looking to get younger and cheaper.

Where did you hear this, Seek?

From the workout lists I've seen so far...This is probably going to be a defense-heavy draft. Although it wouldn't be the end of the world, really think that passing up on a WR this draft, and putting the offense's hopes back in the hands of Bowe or Avery would bring back the same results (more dropped passes, no separation, sloppy route running).

brdempsey69
04-22-2014, 04:37 PM
Where did you hear this, Seek?

From the workout lists I've seen so far...This is probably going to be a defense-heavy draft. Although it wouldn't be the end of the world, really think that passing up on a WR this draft, and putting the offense's hopes back in the hands of Bowe or Avery would bring back the same results (more dropped passes, no separation, sloppy route running).

I could see Dorsey/Reid targeting Jared Abbrederis, the WR from Wisconsin in the middle rounds. Not an instant starter this year, perhaps, but by year 2, he could be a Jordy Nelson type and very solid outside receiver. He runs 4.45 and is a very skilled route runner. He caught 73 passes for 1,051 yards with seven touchdowns in 2013 for the Badgers.

Seek
04-23-2014, 08:54 AM
Where did you hear this, Seek?

From the workout lists I've seen so far...This is probably going to be a defense-heavy draft. Although it wouldn't be the end of the world, really think that passing up on a WR this draft, and putting the offense's hopes back in the hands of Bowe or Avery would bring back the same results (more dropped passes, no separation, sloppy route running).

Local Radio heads were talking about the Alex Smith Contract talks and stating that J. Dorsey made some big mistakes last year by over paying players, like Bowe, Devito, Colquitt, Chase Daniels that he is probably not the best in contract negotiations and has realized his mistakes.

So while talking about possibly drafting a QB this year, because it may not be feasible to pay Alex. They also mentioned that Eric Berry negotiations didn't go well and he is now not entertaining talks of an extension. As previously stated though, I did state it was Rumors.

TopekaRoy
04-24-2014, 02:57 AM
Dorsey didn't overpay Bowe. That was Pioli, wasn't it?

So while talking about possibly drafting a QB this year, because it may not be feasible to pay Alex. They also mentioned that Eric Berry negotiations didn't go well and he is now not entertaining talks of an extension. As previously stated though, I did state it was Rumors.

I THOUGHT so. I was just guessing based on his "big announcement coming" tweet the day Desean was released. Actually releasing Berry after next season should give us all the money we need to extend Alex's contract. There is also a good possibility that we could cut ties with any or all of Bowe, Flowers and Hali.

We won't be able to keep them all. Who we release will depend on who is ready to step up and fill those positions.

ctchiefsfan
04-24-2014, 11:57 AM
Actually Topeka, I'm pretty sure it was Dorsey that negotiated the deal with Bowe's agent. It was certainly done during last year's off season. The 2013 season was the first year of his new contract.

Contract negotiating and managing the salary cap are areas that I have some concerns about Dorsey's capabilities. But then, it should not be all that great a worry, as his plan is to build the team through the draft which after a few of years will free up a lot of cap space.

You mentioned Bowe, Flowers and Hali. Here is how they effect us this year and next.

Bowe this year--cost = $12 million--dead money = $22 million--cap savings = ($10.25 million)

Bowe 2015--cost = $14 million--dead money = $10.5 million--cap savings = $3.5 million

So Bowe isn't going anywhere until at least the end of this season but would be a good candidate for a trade in 2015, maybe even a cut if he does not run up some good numbers this year.

Flowers this year--cost = $10.5 million--dead money = $7 million--cap savings = $3.5 million

Flowers 2015--cost = $11.5 million--dead money = $4 million--cap savings = $7.5 million

So trading or cutting Flowers after this season would free up some pretty good cap space

Hali this year--cost = $11.5 million--dead money = $5.9 million--cap savings = $5.5 million

Hali 2015--cost = $11.9 million--dead money = $2.9 million--cap savings = $9 million

Hali will be a Free Agent after 2015. Extending, trading or cutting him this year would have freed up some cap space. Since it hasn't happened yet I expect there might be an effort to trade him next year. If not then I expect he'll play out his contract and be left to test free agency.

All in all, I think it unlikely any of them goes anywhere this year, but I can certainly see Flowers or Hali on another team in 2015 and possibly even Bowe if his performance is not a good bit better this year than last.

(All information sourced from overthecap.com)

TopekaRoy
04-24-2014, 06:40 PM
Actually Topeka, I'm pretty sure it was Dorsey that negotiated the deal with Bowe's agent. It was certainly done during last year's off season. The 2013 season was the first year of his new contract.

You're correct. Dorsey became GM on Jan 13, 2013 and Bowe didn't sign his new deal until March 4. I had mis-remembered the timing.

ctchiefsfan
04-24-2014, 07:10 PM
Mis-remembering happens. Happens to me all the time. 'Bout the only time it will stop happening to me is when I take the big dirt nap. Fact remains that when it comes to "all things Chiefs" your memory is consistently better than mine.

brdempsey69
04-24-2014, 08:38 PM
Dorsey didn't overpay Bowe. That was Pioli, wasn't it?


I THOUGHT so. I was just guessing based on his "big announcement coming" tweet the day Desean was released. Actually releasing Berry after next season should give us all the money we need to extend Alex's contract. There is also a good possibility that we could cut ties with any or all of Bowe, Flowers and Hali.

We won't be able to keep them all. Who we release will depend on who is ready to step up and fill those positions.

If he won't take a pay cut, I do know that the last year of his contract in 2015 is voidable. Cap space or not, I just can't get on board with continuing to pay him 10 mill a year. Charles is the one who should be getting paid that much, not Berry.