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texaschief
05-04-2014, 12:45 AM
The fact that Alex Smith has not already been signed to an extension can only mean that the Chiefs are keeping their options open heading into the draft. The Chiefs brought in Tyler Bray (arguably the QB with the most upside from the 2013 draft class) as an UDFA who has already shown some nice promise. The 2014 draft looks loaded with QB talent. If there is a QB the Chiefs think could be their franchise future there at #23, don't be shocked to see them pull the trigger. They replaced the second most important position on the team last season with their first pick... why wouldn't they do the same thing with their first pick this season?

The whole decision of whether or not to draft a QB will come down to what they truly think of Tyler Bray... NOT Alex Smith. I think Smith has priced himself out of KC. Even though the Chiefs are coming off a playoff season, it feels a lot more like the playoff season Edwards led Vermeil's Chiefs to rather than a sign of things to come. The Chiefs have maxed out their cap space and have gotten worse in doing so. This team will be facing some tough decisions in the next few seasons that will probably see Eric Berry, Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, Jamaal Charles, Dwayne Bowe, and Brandon Flowers among others leave the team. If those guys leave, it won't be so they can afford a guy like Alex Smith.

Also consider that the Chiefs will be stock-piling picks for the 2015 draft. They will start with 7 and will probably get at least another 3 as compensatory picks from losing Albert, McCluster, a pair of starting OGs, and Tyson Jackson. Going with a 2nd or 3rd year QB in the form of this year's QB taken in the draft or Bray from last year will allow the Chiefs to get ANOTHER compensatory pick in 2016 by letting Smith walk. Smith won't be the only high-profile player to leave, either. I would expect some big names to either get traded this season with 2 seasons left before free agency, or next year when they still have 1 season of team control left.

You may disagree with me and not believe that this team is about to go through a major overhaul, but do you really think John Dorsey and Andy Reid are going to let their their collective futures in KC be decided by and aging roster that they didn't select? Doubtful. If the front office thinks they can get/or have their QBOTF in this draft or the last, they won't sign Alex Smith long term. In fact, I don't see a single scenario that has the Chiefs committing long-term money (especially $15m/yr) to Alex Smith. Andy Reid and John Dorsey want a guy they can develop over an extended period of time. (see Aaron Rodgers)

I see a 3 year plan of something like the following:

Trade Eric Berry for draft picks in 2015/16
Let Alex Smith walk for picks
Trade Hali for picks in '16
Let Charles walk after '16
Trade DJ for picks in '16
Cut/trade Sean Smith after '14
Sign Justin Houston long-term
Sign Dontari Poe long-term
Sign Bray (or '14 rookie) long-term

10+ picks in 2015
10+ picks in 2016

All this among other moves, of course... but I think you are going to see a drastically different team heading into the 2016 team than many of us want to see. I will be absolutely shocked and dismayed if Alex Smith is the starting QB for the Kansas City Chiefs heading into the 2016 season.

brdempsey69
05-04-2014, 01:36 AM
I'd roll the dice with Bray & I wouldn't take a QB this year. Next years draft class is said to superior at the QB class & with the compensatory picks that they'll have, that will be a better time to pull the trigger on drafting a QB.

As for Smith, it's hard to envision the Chiefs giving up a pair of 2nd round picks for a loaner QB. But if a deal can't get done and Smith does walk, then that's exactly what you have.

And make sure to have a good O-Line built in front of the QB regardless of whether Smith stays or goes.

texaschief
05-04-2014, 01:59 AM
I doubt the Chiefs were thinking he'd be asking for $15m/yr on an extension when they gave up those picks.

brdempsey69
05-04-2014, 11:11 AM
I know that the Chiefs knew that the asking price for a top 10 or top 5 QB was in the 15 mil. a year range considering they were paying Cassel 10 mil. a year and the recent contracts signed by Romo and Flacco.

What they probably didn't expect was Alex to finish the 2013 season looking like a top 5 QB, as over the 2nd half of the season it was said the Chiefs Offense was putting up more points on the scoreboard than just about everybody else & certainly Alex was a part of that. And then the playoff game pretty much cemented his status as one of the games better QB's.

I believe you are right about the other players you listed nearing the end regarding their time in a Chiefs uniform. But, I wouldn't count Alex Smith as being gone just yet.

Mongo
05-04-2014, 11:59 AM
The fact that Alex Smith has not already been signed to an extension can only mean that the Chiefs are keeping their options open heading into the draft. The Chiefs brought in Tyler Bray (arguably the QB with the most upside from the 2013 draft class) as an UDFA who has already shown some nice promise. The 2014 draft looks loaded with QB talent. If there is a QB the Chiefs think could be their franchise future there at #23, don't be shocked to see them pull the trigger. They replaced the second most important position on the team last season with their first pick... why wouldn't they do the same thing with their first pick this season?

The whole decision of whether or not to draft a QB will come down to what they truly think of Tyler Bray... NOT Alex Smith. I think Smith has priced himself out of KC. Even though the Chiefs are coming off a playoff season, it feels a lot more like the playoff season Edwards led Vermeil's Chiefs to rather than a sign of things to come. The Chiefs have maxed out their cap space and have gotten worse in doing so. This team will be facing some tough decisions in the next few seasons that will probably see Eric Berry, Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, Jamaal Charles, Dwayne Bowe, and Brandon Flowers among others leave the team. If those guys leave, it won't be so they can afford a guy like Alex Smith.

Also consider that the Chiefs will be stock-piling picks for the 2015 draft. They will start with 7 and will probably get at least another 3 as compensatory picks from losing Albert, McCluster, a pair of starting OGs, and Tyson Jackson. Going with a 2nd or 3rd year QB in the form of this year's QB taken in the draft or Bray from last year will allow the Chiefs to get ANOTHER compensatory pick in 2016 by letting Smith walk. Smith won't be the only high-profile player to leave, either. I would expect some big names to either get traded this season with 2 seasons left before free agency, or next year when they still have 1 season of team control left.

You may disagree with me and not believe that this team is about to go through a major overhaul, but do you really think John Dorsey and Andy Reid are going to let their their collective futures in KC be decided by and aging roster that they didn't select? Doubtful. If the front office thinks they can get/or have their QBOTF in this draft or the last, they won't sign Alex Smith long term. In fact, I don't see a single scenario that has the Chiefs committing long-term money (especially $15m/yr) to Alex Smith. Andy Reid and John Dorsey want a guy they can develop over an extended period of time. (see Aaron Rodgers)

I see a 3 year plan of something like the following:

Trade Eric Berry for draft picks in 2015/16
Let Alex Smith walk for picks
Trade Hali for picks in '16
Let Charles walk after '16
Trade DJ for picks in '16
Cut/trade Sean Smith after '14
Sign Justin Houston long-term
Sign Dontari Poe long-term
Sign Bray (or '14 rookie) long-term

10+ picks in 2015
10+ picks in 2016

All this among other moves, of course... but I think you are going to see a drastically different team heading into the 2016 team than many of us want to see. I will be absolutely shocked and dismayed if Alex Smith is the starting QB for the Kansas City Chiefs heading into the 2016 season.
Player trades are rare in the NFL, especially for very good players. With the exception of QB you seldom get fair value. Once the league knows a guy's been made available, why not wait until the trading team releases the guy?

Hali won't get you better than an R3, at the very best. An R4 is more likely. Berry an R2, maybe a late R1. Maybe. DJ & Flowers -- same as Hali.

brdempsey69
05-04-2014, 12:59 PM
Hali, Bowe, Flowers are NOT tradeable because of their age and their salaries. It's not happening.

ctchiefsfan
05-04-2014, 01:25 PM
Interesting....I was pondering the whole Alex Smith/Tyler Bray situation during some down time at work last night. I had planned to make a thread on the subject today.

texaschief beat me to it and did a much better job than I would have. Thank you.

I agree with most of what is said here. Especially with regard to Berry, Hali and Flowers. I really don't see them being here much longer.

I gotta say though that I have a hard time imagining they would let Jamaal Charles go. That said, JC has been doing FANTASTIC work for our Chiefs and he has been doing it for VERY LITTLE money (comparatively). His contract is done after 2015 and if he is looking to be the highest paid back in the history of football I could easily imagine them franchising him to keep him here through the 2016 season and then letting him walk. At that point JC would be 30 and with the pounding he is taking he might well be on the downhill side of his career. He'd certainly have a couple of good years left in him (unless he had a serious injury) but I guess it's not hard to imagine him gone for the 2017 season. I hope not, he's one player I'd really like to see finish his career as a Chief. But in the end, football is all about business and I can't see Dorsey making him the highest paid back ever if his capabilities are in decline. For me, it would be a sad day to see JC in another teams uniform.

On Alex Smith....DAMMIT!!!! Why does money always have to get involved in football??? I liked the "old days" when most players stayed with a single team for their entire career. OK I'll stop whining now.....

I'd like to see Smith get a 5 year contract for about $50 million with $36-$39 million guaranteed. Big money ($13 million or less) for 3 years, followed by "backup QB money" for the last 2 years. Not sure I see it happening though.


Smith had a hot hand the last half of last season and of course that has his agent looking for a huge payday. Probably a bigger payday than Dorsey ever imagined. I tend to think that Dorsey was expecting 2013 to be an 8-8 or 9-7 season and then being able to extend Smith for maybe about $10 million per year. But then we went 11-5 and almost won a playoff game and all those plans went straight down the toilet. Best laid plans of mice and men.

So I think what is happening is Dorsey and Reid are looking at the tough schedule we have this year and figuring that Smith won't look half as good at the end of this coming season as he does now and that at end of next year they can keep him for about $10 million per year. So I think they will play pretty tough on the extension negotiations this year thus betting that if they don't get a deal done on their terms now that they will be able to next year. The flip side to that coin is that if we win a playoff game this year, then Smith's agent is going to be wanting $20 million next year. It's a gamble, but I think the odds are pretty good. I doubt Smith will look quite as much like Superman at the end of this season as he does now. All said and done, it's not hard to imagine the Chiefs franchising Alex Smith for the 2015 season. It would cost HUGE money, but maybe Reid and Dorsey figure they will have a new QBOTF ready to go for 2016.

Tyler Bray....well, he is just an enigma to me. I haven't seen enough of him to decide if he is the Second Coming of the Lord or just another college kid who couldn't make it in the NFL. Hopefully Reid knows a whole lot more about Bray than I do.

Eydugstr
05-04-2014, 02:49 PM
You may disagree with me and not believe that this team is about to go through a major overhaul, but do you really think John Dorsey and Andy Reid are going to let their their collective futures in KC be decided by and aging roster that they didn't select?

That's the question that sticks with me.

Change is coming. My guess is that those with the best trade potential and least impact to the team will be gone first.

As quickly as Reid made up his mind on Alex Smith, can't see him becoming an accounting casualty. I'm not sold on this batch of QB's in the draft this year. Maybe it's better just to wait until the negotiating point next year, focus on playing football. Next year, though...Could see us drafting one. If anything I'd think the QB on the hot seat would be Daniels.

texaschief
05-04-2014, 03:34 PM
I know that the Chiefs knew that the asking price for a top 10 or top 5 QB was in the 15 mil. a year range considering they were paying Cassel 10 mil. a year and the recent contracts signed by Romo and Flacco.

What they probably didn't expect was Alex to finish the 2013 season looking like a top 5 QB, as over the 2nd half of the season it was said the Chiefs Offense was putting up more points on the scoreboard than just about everybody else & certainly Alex was a part of that. And then the playoff game pretty much cemented his status as one of the games better QB's.

I believe you are right about the other players you listed nearing the end regarding their time in a Chiefs uniform. But, I wouldn't count Alex Smith as being gone just yet.

Right. I doubt they thought they were going to get a guy who looked like a top 7 QB in this league when they traded for him... especially in his first year here.


Player trades are rare in the NFL, especially for very good players. With the exception of QB you seldom get fair value. Once the league knows a guy's been made available, why not wait until the trading team releases the guy?

Hali won't get you better than an R3, at the very best. An R4 is more likely. Berry an R2, maybe a late R1. Maybe. DJ & Flowers -- same as Hali.

Bowe won't be traded. He'll be released for cap space. I think the Chiefs will take anything they can get for Berry, Hali, and the rest. It's mostly about money, here. There is a salary basement as well as a salary cap. I think I'd pay DJ and Bowe for a longer period of time than I would any of the rest of the stars on this team. It would also be really tough to sell a rebuild job to a franchise base that just saw their team make the playoffs for the first time in forever. However, the moves that would help this team the most in the long-term are the kind of moves that brought some of those guys to the Chiefs in first place. When we traded Allen away to get guys like Albert, Flowers, Charles, etc it was one of the most valuable moves the team could have ever made.

There are safety-hungry teams out there who would pay a premium for 2 years of Eric Berry as the Vikings did with Allen before signing him long-term. Hali is coming off a Pro Bowl season and plays a premium position. He's a known commodity and for a team needing to pressure the QB, he'd bring back plenty of value given he still has 2 years left on his contract as well. The fire sale would be on at that point and what do you think Charles would bring back with 2 more years left on his deal?

Let's go with your best case scenario (because I'm an optimist) and say the Chiefs get this:
Keep Bowe and DJ

Hali for a 2015 3rd
Berry for a 2015 late 1st & 4th (close to the Jared Allen haul)
Flowers for a 2015 4th
Charles for a 2015 1st, 2016 2nd & 4th

Chiefs start the 2015 draft with 7 picks. Also, they get at least 3 compensation picks. Now, add these picks! 5 more in 2015... 15 picks in the 2015 draft. Then, let Alex walk after 2014. You're now heading into the 2016 draft with 7 picks, 1 comp pick and 2 additional trade picks for a total of at least 10 picks in 2016. This is how you "build through the draft." You don't accomplish anything by trading away picks for vets. It needs to be the other way around. You need to be trading vets for picks. Currently, the Chiefs are stocked with high-value players that could bring back a bounty that would rebuild this team very quickly.


To your point, Mongo, this kind of thing doesn't happen often. But, when you see teams who take the approach of building through the draft, you see it work over and over again. There's no Herschel Walker or Ricky Williams trade coming down the line. You have to find ways to generate more draft picks year in and year out. You can't keep hoping that you'll hit on cheap stars every year... you have to generate and produce those good, cheap players... and you do that by having numerous draft picks year in and year out. You get those additional picks by trading away those players who hold enough value that other teams are willing to part with the ones they own. If you have a starter that you can't re-sign or trade away, let them walk and get the comp pick.

If I were a GM of a football team, one of my goals would be to average 9 or 10 picks per draft. If I'm not hitting that number, I'm not doing something right. When you come across the Tom Bradys, Brian Urlachers, Ray Lewis', and Peyton Mannings of the world... THOSE are the guys you pay a TON of cash for and keep them in your franchise for their entire career. But if the player coming up for contract isn't that once a generation type player, he shouldn't be untouchable. Shop that guy and get some value back. Keep a steady flow of good, young talent coming through your franchise and keep those 5 or 6 players you have built your team around. How long do you see players stick around New England or Pittsburgh? Every year, they come up with what seems like a whole group of guys you've never heard of. The Pats build around Brady and do it effectively through the draft. They ALWAYS have at least 7 picks if not more. Even if it means trading out of the first round, they STILL find a way to have at least 7 picks.

You want a recipe for success in the NFL? Draft picks, draft picks, and more draft picks. Look at this Chiefs team... how many of our best players came from free agency or via trade as a player for another team?

Give Reid/Dorsey 25 draft picks in 2015 and 2016 and I would bet the house we'd see a Super Bowl before we started the next decade.

Mongo
05-04-2014, 07:23 PM
Hali, Bowe, Flowers are NOT tradeable because of their age and their salaries. It's not happening.
Yep. I was trying to be positive. No one will trade for those guys.

jason1981
05-04-2014, 09:31 PM
We will not trade charles and we will not keep bowe. I can see hali, flowers, bowe leaving. I think the chiefs are high on berry. And DJ I think will be a life long chief and hes to valueable. He shows up every game. If dj ever looses a step then he can move to the other inside spot and let a faster ilb take his spot.

ctchiefsfan
05-04-2014, 10:12 PM
Yknow, texaschief makes an interesting point. I doubt we can get 25 picks for 2015 and 2016, but I don't have a hard time imagining 20-23. We're already sitting on 17 maybe 18 between the 2 years. We've got some pro-bowlers in their late 20's that don't have too many years left on their contracts. Maybe even 25 if JC and Smith went down the road.No doubt in my mind that JC would bring some pretty good offers. And if Smith looks as good this year as he did the last half of last season as he did this year we might get some offers for him. Wish he had another year on his contract.

I'm not sure I like the idea, but it is hard not to be interested in the idea of Dorsey with 20+ draft picks over 2 years. It would make for a lot of flexibility and a lot of cap space to bring in some big name free agents to fill holes for a Super Bowl drive. Interesting idea.

chief31
05-05-2014, 08:26 AM
Alex's situation is interesting, and I certainly don't see us keeping all of those high-dollar players, but I will be genuinely shocked if this team trades Charles.

I know, it's always fun to think of having a whole lot of draft picks. And I did things like that in franchise mode of Madden... But to go to the playoffs, and then sell your whole team for draft picks doesn't happen.

I suppose, if we have a terrible year this season, maybe... But I am not go to get too excited at that prospect.

Mongo
05-05-2014, 10:51 AM
Jamaal Charles won't get you an R1 pick -- guaranteed.

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 01:30 PM
Just ran across this article here:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000346667/article/kansas-city-chiefs-consider-drafting-qb-in-first-round

I hope it's just a smokescreen to bait somebody like Houston into trading up to #23 and giving the Chiefs their 2nd and 3rd rounders.

NWO
05-05-2014, 01:52 PM
They traded 2, very high picks for the guy and they don't want to pay him?

Absolutely stunning.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 01:57 PM
I don't like all this talk of Alex Smith only being with us for 2 years. Unless of course Reid sees something in Tyler Bray that makes him think Bray is actually some sort of hidden nuclear weapon?

Then there is Chase Daniel.....I wasn't much interested in him after his preseason performance and let's be honest, he's a career backup so far. But as quick as I say that I remember how he played against San Diego in week 17.

So the truth is I have no bloody clue. Alex did GREAT the last half of last season and I am not enthusiastic about the idea of seeing him go elsewhere. And of course all these rumors about drafting a QB at 23 (or trading up to draft a QB) could be nothing more than a tactic in the negotiations with Smith's agent. Maybe all this talk of drafting a QB is nothing more than an effort to get a deal done with Smith before the Chiefs go on the clock at the draft. I dunno. Of course, we get a second bite at that apple. I expect a 7-9 to 9-7 season this year and no playoffs, so that too might soften up Smith's agent demands.

I guess in the end I'll just have to settle for "In Reid and Dorsey We Trust".

matthewschiefs
05-05-2014, 01:58 PM
Just ran across this article here:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000346667/article/kansas-city-chiefs-consider-drafting-qb-in-first-round

I hope it's just a smokescreen to bait somebody like Houston into trading up to #23 and giving the Chiefs their 2nd and 3rd rounders.


They traded 2, very high picks for the guy and they don't want to pay him?

Absolutely stunning.

1st I think it's all about negotiations both the Chiefs and Alex are trying to get the leverage to get the deal that both suits them. It happens all the time. IMO they are going to resign Alex.

2nd If they were to draft a QB in the 1st round don't be shocked. Dorsey is a BPA guy. If that's a QB he will take him. Even if that QB would sit for a couple of years. It wouldn't be a shock. But I don't see it happening I think the top level QBs will be gone. And I really don't think this is a great qb class. Though if Aaron Murray is there in round 3 I would jump all over that

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 02:23 PM
They traded 2, very high picks for the guy and they don't want to pay him?

Absolutely stunning.

Actually, I think it is more a matter of they don't want to overpay him.

He was decent in the first half of last season, very good the second half and exceptional against the Colts. But I'm not sure that makes him a $15-$17 million quarterback. Especially not in a 3-5 year contract that would probably have so much guaranteed as to 100% lock him in as our starting QB for 3 years. I'd like to see a little more of him before we make that big a commitment to him. But if he would take an extension for $10-$11 million per year then I'd feel much better about making a bigger commitment to him.

Eydugstr
05-05-2014, 03:00 PM
1st I think it's all about negotiations both the Chiefs and Alex are trying to get the leverage to get the deal that both suits them. It happens all the time. IMO they are going to resign Alex.

2nd If they were to draft a QB in the 1st round don't be shocked. Dorsey is a BPA guy. If that's a QB he will take him. Even if that QB would sit for a couple of years. It wouldn't be a shock. But I don't see it happening I think the top level QBs will be gone. And I really don't think this is a great qb class. Though if Aaron Murray is there in round 3 I would jump all over that

Unless Alex (or his agent) are being really stubborn, think this is more the case than anything. But I'll say this, like the situation with Branden Albert last year, this is one headache that Dorsey doesn't need at the moment.

NWO
05-05-2014, 03:16 PM
1st I think it's all about negotiations both the Chiefs and Alex are trying to get the leverage to get the deal that both suits them. It happens all the time. IMO they are going to resign Alex.

2nd If they were to draft a QB in the 1st round don't be shocked. Dorsey is a BPA guy. If that's a QB he will take him. Even if that QB would sit for a couple of years. It wouldn't be a shock. But I don't see it happening I think the top level QBs will be gone. And I really don't think this is a great qb class. Though if Aaron Murray is there in round 3 I would jump all over that


Really? Eric Fisher was the BPA in the entire draft?

I would be fine with Murray. In fact, I hope we trade down and pick him up in the second.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 04:07 PM
Unless Alex (or his agent) are being really stubborn, think this is more the case than anything.

Smith's agent (I forget his name but I think it sounds a lot like condom) has a reputation as a real viper. I would be truly shocked if Smith was being real stubborn. I'm inclined to believe that as he said in an interview Smith has simply turned all negotiations over to his agent and will not interfere.......unless he feels that his career in KC is truly in jeopardy. I REALLY doubt Smith wants to go to ANOTHER new team and learn ANOTHER coach's way of running a West Coast Offense. Smith wants the biggest contract he can get, and I can't blame him. But I don't think he would want to go elsewhere over $7-$10 million over 5 years. I mean....if in the last 5 years of your career you are going to get $60 million or so is it really worth moving to yet another city for an extra $7-$10 million?

My real concern is that right now based realistically on 1/2 a season, it he really worth somewhere around $12 million per year? If the last half of last season is the "REAL" Alex Smith" then I say "PAY THE MAN!" But I'm not convinced Smith is as good as he looked for the last 1/2 of last season--at least not enough that as a GM I would be willing to bet a 5 year--$60-$80 million contract on him with probably something like $35-$40 million guaranteed. I'm betting that the real sticking point in the negotiations is how much of the contract is guaranteed.


But I'll say this, like the situation with Branden Albert last year, this is one headache that Dorsey doesn't need at the moment.

And one he didn't expect I'll bet.

matthewschiefs
05-05-2014, 04:08 PM
Really? Eric Fisher was the BPA in the entire draft?

I would be fine with Murray. In fact, I hope we trade down and pick him up in the second.

Dorsey thought he was. You don't agree with that but we should see how that plays out. I'm not going to write a guy off after his rookie season. There is still hope for Fisher.

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 04:20 PM
Dorsey thought he was. You don't agree with that but we should see how that plays out. I'm not going to write a guy off after his rookie season. There is still hope for Fisher.

Yes, there is hope for Fisher, since he showed marked improvement over the last 5 games he played in & when I compare that to Branden Albert's last 5 games in 2010 when he gave up 9 sacks in his THIRD season, then yes, that tells me there is hope for Fisher. The question is weather Fisher can stay healthy and not get dinged up like last season. The 2013 Chiefs draft class got bit harder by the injury bug more so than any Chiefs rookie class I've ever seen in 4+ decades and nobody could have foreseen that.

NWO
05-05-2014, 04:38 PM
Dorsey thought he was. You don't agree with that but we should see how that plays out. I'm not going to write a guy off after his rookie season. There is still hope for Fisher.


I didn't say to write him off. I was only replying to your "BPA" comment in which Dorsey selected Fisher. According to PFF he was one of the worst tackles in the league last year.

NWO
05-05-2014, 04:39 PM
Yes, there is hope for Fisher, since he showed marked improvement over the last 5 games he played in & when I compare that to Branden Albert's last 5 games in 2010 when he gave up 9 sacks in his THIRD season, then yes, that tells me there is hope for Fisher. The question is weather Fisher can stay healthy and not get dinged up like last season. The 2013 Chiefs draft class got bit harder by the injury bug more so than any Chiefs rookie class I've ever seen in 4+ decades and nobody could have foreseen that.


Will post his PFF stats tomorrow. He was bad throughout the year.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 04:48 PM
Fisher will become a starter on this team. I'm pretty confident about that. As #1 picks overall he is disappointing. But as #1 pick overall in last years draft I think he was worthwhile given that we pretty much knew Branden Albert was gone this year. We had the bad luck to get the #1 pick overall in a very weak draft class. IMO had there been a really great WR in last year's class he would be a Chief today and Fisher would be elsewhere. But there was no "sure thing WR" last year, so we got Fisher.

People argue a lot about BPA vs "need" but I don't think it is quite as black and white, right or wrong as that. I think that in the first 2 or 3 rounds you look at BPA, match that list against "need" and then make a decision. For example if in round #1 you look at players available when you go "on the clock" and the BPA (in your estimation) matches your #4 most important need but the #2 BPA available matched your #1 "need" then you go with the #2 BPA. Generally you multiply "need" X BPA and you go with the lowest number. Yes, that is simplistic, but it is a "general format" for rounds 1-3.

For rounds 4 onwards you go purely with BPA on the theory that if they turn into a solid player but you don't "need" that position you can trade them off for a similar draft pick to what you paid for them.

Anyway, that is how I would do it if I was a GM.....THANK GOD I'M NOT! The ulcers would kill me in a month.

There is a lot of "voodoo", "gut feeling" and plain old fashioned "horse sense" involved in who to draft.

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 04:50 PM
Will post his PFF stats tomorrow. He was bad throughout the year.

And while you are at it, you can print out those PFF stats and if you run out of toilet paper then that printed stats page will come in handy, because about all it's really worth.

PFF ratings regarding O-Lineman are worthless garbage and don't support your "He was bad throughout the year" statement at all & I know it's complete BS, because I watched Fisher closely in his last 5 games via NFL Game Rewind. The Buffalo game was pretty good, as well. The fact that you'd use PFF as a reference only tells me that you didn't watch Fisher closely at all.

You're starting to sound like you crapped in your diaper when the selection of Fisher was announced and your mommy hasn't changed it for you since then.

matthewschiefs
05-05-2014, 05:01 PM
I didn't say to write him off. I was only replying to your "BPA" comment in which Dorsey selected Fisher. According to PFF he was one of the worst tackles in the league last year.

You do no that happened AFTER the draft don't you? Before that happened Dorsey felt he was the BPA thinking long term. He might be he might now like any draft you just have to wait and see. It wasn't a draft that one would say was loaded with stars. That's the thing people who complain about the Fisher pick ignore. Who exactly was the all star prospect that we passed up? It's one of the questions I've asked this offseason that hasn't been answered.

Fisher was a rookie last year. OF COURSE he's going to struggle. He was also playing a new position it just wasn't a recipe for success. I've said this offseason I don't really like how they are handling Fisher. They drafted him changed his position and just when he was showing improvement at that spot they are saying forget all that lets go back to LT.IMO I think they are setting him up to fail. But we shall see.

matthewschiefs
05-05-2014, 05:04 PM
Will post his PFF stats tomorrow. He was bad throughout the year.

No one said he was great at the end of the year. But would you agree he got better? IMO he showed improvement. And as a rookie that's about what you would expect. This offseason he has added some weight so he's not going to be as easy to push over and a year under his belt I'm looking forward to seeing him in the preseason. Hopeing that my concerns about him are laid to rest.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 05:12 PM
No one said he was great at the end of the year. But would you agree he got better? IMO he showed improvement. And as a rookie that's about what you would expect. This offseason he has added some weight so he's not going to be as easy to push over and a year under his belt I'm looking forward to seeing him in the preseason. Hoping that my concerns about him are laid to rest.

That's the thing. In a good draft class you pretty much expect the #1 pick overall to be a star from the start. But last years draft class was nothing special.......and that is being polite. With a very weak draft class you simply hope that the #1 pick overall becomes a good solid starter and accept that it might take a year or two. Or that is how I see it.

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 06:14 PM
That's the thing. In a good draft class you pretty much expect the #1 pick overall to be a star from the start. But last years draft class was nothing special.......and that is being polite. With a very weak draft class you simply hope that the #1 pick overall becomes a good solid starter and accept that it might take a year or two. Or that is how I see it.

Precisely, and especially when that player is being asked to play a new position in his 1st year in the NFL against a pretty good series of opponents ( something that the PFF trash DOESN'T take into account for ). I'll tell you what, go watch some game footage of Ryan O'Callaghan playing RT for the Chiefs in 2009 -- he wasn't half-bad, he was ALL bad.

And I was certainly one of the people opposed to having Fisher play out of position just for the sake of a crybaby LT wannabe like Albert, because Albert was wanting to be paid top-5 money for a position that he was only average at, and never should have playing at to begin with.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 06:32 PM
Exactly. Of all the years where we had to suck so bad that we got the #1 pick overall it just HAD to be 2012 ....right???? My feeling is that Fisher will do a good job this year. And in the 2015 season he will certainly surpass anything Branden Albert ever was. Stinks that we have to wait that long for the #1 pick overall to become that meaningful, but that is what the 2013 draft was.

Eydugstr
05-05-2014, 06:38 PM
Smith's agent (I forget his name but I think it sounds a lot like condom) has a reputation as a real viper. I would be truly shocked if Smith was being real stubborn. I'm inclined to believe that as he said in an interview Smith has simply turned all negotiations over to his agent and will not interfere.......unless he feels that his career in KC is truly in jeopardy. I REALLY doubt Smith wants to go to ANOTHER new team and learn ANOTHER coach's way of running a West Coast Offense. Smith wants the biggest contract he can get, and I can't blame him. But I don't think he would want to go elsewhere over $7-$10 million over 5 years. I mean....if in the last 5 years of your career you are going to get $60 million or so is it really worth moving to yet another city for an extra $7-$10 million?

My real concern is that right now based realistically on 1/2 a season, it he really worth somewhere around $12 million per year? If the last half of last season is the "REAL" Alex Smith" then I say "PAY THE MAN!" But I'm not convinced Smith is as good as he looked for the last 1/2 of last season--at least not enough that as a GM I would be willing to bet a 5 year--$60-$80 million contract on him with probably something like $35-$40 million guaranteed. I'm betting that the real sticking point in the negotiations is how much of the contract is guaranteed.



And one he didn't expect I'll bet.

Agreed. Another thing to consider, is how Alex will get viewed if he goes to another team after playing just a season or two in KC. Chances are slim that he'd be playing for a coach as good or better than Andy Reid. I'd rather just keep him here, which is better for both KC and Alex in the long run.

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 06:41 PM
Agreed. Another thing to consider, is how Alex will get viewed if he goes to another team after playing just a season or two in KC. Chances are slim that he'd be playing for a coach as good or better than Andy Reid. I'd rather just keep him here, which is better for both KC and Alex in the long run.

I have to believe that something will get worked out with Alex. There may be some bumps in the road along the way, but it would clearly be in the best interests of both parties for Alex to stay in KC.

Eydugstr
05-05-2014, 06:48 PM
Will post his PFF stats tomorrow. He was bad throughout the year.

PFF...I'm not sure I'd be using that as a reference material. PFF is to the NFL what Dungeons & Dragons is to medieval history.

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 06:52 PM
PFF...I'm not sure I'd be using that as a reference material. PFF is to the NFL what Dungeons & Dragons is to medieval history.

Especially regarding O-Lineman. Pure worthless garbage. He doesn't realize it, but he lost all credibility using PFF as a reference and further shot down his own argument.

Eydugstr
05-05-2014, 07:12 PM
I have to believe that something will get worked out with Alex. There may be some bumps in the road along the way, but it would clearly be in the best interests of both parties for Alex to stay in KC.

I think it's going to get worked out. The only QB I know of that got interviewed by KC was Garappolo, and while he's a great prospect to have developing on the bench, didn't see anything in him that would make me believe Reid would start him over Smith, Daniels or Bray.

But let's play devil's advocate and say that Alex Smith has other plans. Where would he go? Houston? Tampa?

jason1981
05-05-2014, 07:14 PM
I think this is a ploy to scare a team into thinking we might draft a qb so they will try to trade up to us. Is it just a coincidence this news broke out within a week of the draft?

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 07:14 PM
I think it's going to get worked out. The only QB I know of that got interviewed by KC was Garappolo, and while he's a great prospect to have developing on the bench, didn't see anything in him that would make me believe Reid would start him over Smith, Daniels or Bray.

But let's play devil's advocate and say that Alex Smith has other plans. Where would he go? Houston? Tampa?

If Houston wants Alex Smith, then have them either send the #1 overall pick to KC in the 2014 draft or send a 2014 2nd rounder ( #33 overall ) and a 2015 2nd rounder.


I think this is a ploy to scare a team into thinking we might draft a qb so they will try to trade up to us. Is it just a coincidence this news broke out within a week of the draft?

I'm thinking the same thought. The Chiefs brass may be trying to cover the base of the top 5 WR's being off the board when it comes their turn to select at #23 or perhaps they really do want to trade down for more picks first and foremost.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 07:34 PM
Agreed. Another thing to consider, is how Alex will get viewed if he goes to another team after playing just a season or two in KC. Chances are slim that he'd be playing for a coach as good or better than Andy Reid. I'd rather just keep him here, which is better for both KC and Alex in the long run.

YUP! That is what I was trying to say in my long-winded post. Alex wants a payday, but I have to believe he doesn't want to spend the last 5-6 years of his football career bouncing from team to team. What he needs is a $10-$12 million per year contract with some bonus cash thrown in for a playoff win and a Super Bowl win. I'm convinced that the real problem right now is his agent.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 07:38 PM
If Houston wants Alex Smith, then have them either send the #1 overall pick to KC in the 2014 draft or send a 2014 2nd rounder ( #33 overall ) and a 2015 2nd rounder.

That would be hard to turn down. I'd hate to see Alex go, but I don't see how anybody in their right mind could turn that down. Which is why it won't happen.

Eydugstr
05-05-2014, 08:10 PM
I think this is a ploy to scare a team into thinking we might draft a qb so they will try to trade up to us. Is it just a coincidence this news broke out within a week of the draft?

That's very possible. Also found it ironic that story broke out after we'd played out that argument on the forum! Thought it was supposed to be the other way around!

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 09:53 PM
That would be hard to turn down. I'd hate to see Alex go, but I don't see how anybody in their right mind could turn that down. Which is why it won't happen.

It would similar to the Cleveland Browns, back in January of 1970, trading home-town star WR Paul Warfield to Miami for the #3 overall pick in the draft so the Browns could take Purdue QB Mike Phipps. That trade backfired on the Browns as Phipps was a dud and the Browns never recovered from Warfield's loss and became patsies, while the Dolphins went to the playoffs all 5 years that Warfield was there including 3 Super Bowl appearances.

If Houston did acquire Alex, they would automatically jump up and become contenders in their division. But like you said, it won't happen.

texaschief
05-05-2014, 10:35 PM
Hey... at least we're not talking about whether Vick or Geno should be our starter next year. lol

matthewschiefs
05-05-2014, 10:38 PM
It would similar to the Cleveland Browns, back in January of 1970, trading home-town star WR Paul Warfield to Miami for the #3 overall pick in the draft so the Browns could take Purdue QB Mike Phipps. That trade backfired on the Browns as Phipps was a dud and the Browns never recovered from Warfield's loss and became patsies, while the Dolphins went to the playoffs all 5 years that Warfield was there including 3 Super Bowl appearances.

If Houston did acquire Alex, they would automatically jump up and become contenders in their division. But like you said, it won't happen.

If you ever need more horrible Cleveland trades I can give you a lot in baseball since 2000

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 11:11 PM
If you ever need more horrible Cleveland trades I can give you a lot in baseball since 2000

None will ever top the Paul Warfield trade in Cleveland sports history. It sent a shock wave through Cleveland that still ripples somewhat to this day. Warfield himself said he was stunned by it & never saw it coming.

I wish the Chiefs could find a receiver like Warfield to line up on the left and then another like Otis Taylor to line up on the right side. Alex would love throwing to those guys in their prime & if Warfield and Taylor would have able to play together and had Joe Montana throwing to them, they would have put up Jerry Rice-like numbers in their careers.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 11:11 PM
It would similar to the Cleveland Browns, back in January of 1970, trading home-town star WR Paul Warfield to Miami for the #3 overall pick in the draft so the Browns could take Purdue QB Mike Phipps. That trade backfired on the Browns as Phipps was a dud and the Browns never recovered from Warfield's loss and became patsies, while the Dolphins went to the playoffs all 5 years that Warfield was there including 3 Super Bowl appearances.

If Houston did acquire Alex, they would automatically jump up and become contenders in their division. But like you said, it won't happen.

You have a much better memory than me!I had no recollection where Miami got Warfield from. My compliments!!!

brdempsey69
05-05-2014, 11:15 PM
You have a much better memory than me!I had no recollection where Miami got Warfield from. My compliments!!!

I'm willing to bet your memory isn't failing you regarding what Warfield did to Emmitt Thomas in the 1971 Christmas day game. 7 catches for 140 yards and Warfield just bewildered Thomas all game long and Thomas was a good CB. We can thank Cleveland for that trade as to what transpired in that Christmas day game. Without that trade, that Christmas day game in 1971 doesn't happen & I wish to this day it never had happened.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 11:16 PM
Hey... at least we're not talking about whether Vick or Geno should be our starter next year. lol

As I am sure you recall, last year at this time there was ONLY one topic......whether we were or weren't complete morons for getting Alex instead of Geno. I'm glad those days are gone. We still argue, but at least we no longer have a one trick pony with an axe to grind dominating Chiefscrowd.

This is a happy place to hang out these days.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 11:22 PM
I wish the Chiefs could find a receiver like Warfield to line up on the left and then another like Otis Taylor to line up on the right side. Alex would love throwing to those guys in their prime & if Warfield and Taylor would have able to play together and had Joe Montana throwing to them, they would have put up Jerry Rice-like numbers in their careers.

We'd have been the only team to win 3 consequtive Super Bowls. Probably 4. The late '60s and early '70s made me a Chiefs fan. Have been ever since and I will ride a red cloud in heaven or hell--whatever may be my fate.

ctchiefsfan
05-05-2014, 11:43 PM
I'm willing to bet your memory isn't failing you regarding what Warfield did to Emmitt Thomas in the 1971 Christmas day game. 7 catches for 140 yards and Warfield just bewildered Thomas all game long and Thomas was a good CB. We can thank Cleveland for that trade as to what transpired in that Christmas day game. Without that trade, that Christmas day game in 1971 doesn't happen & I wish to this day it never had happened.

Emmitt was a GREAT CB.

Ed Podolak did enough all by himself to win that game and the rest of the team did too. I still can't believe Stenerud missed those FGs. He was one of the, if not the first of the true "specialist" kickers. And he failed us when we needed him most. And that wasn't the last time a GREAT kicker has failed us.

Till the day I die I'll remember the announcers saying (paraphrase)...."The Chiefs are at the 50 yard line. They are within Stenerud's range". STILL pished they moved the goal posts to the back of the end zone.

Please don't mention that game often. Still hurts like hell. And I still bear an undying hatred for those damned fish. I hate them more than the Donks. But for me, "enemy #1" will ALWAYS be those damned raiders.

Should have seen me a few years ago when we beat the raiders 28-0! I was in a bar that had the Sunday ticket. I went CUCKOO!!!! There were a few raiders fans there and it was a really, REALLY, REALLY GREAT DAY!!!

If we could just beat those damned fish in an AFC Championship Game I could probably die right then and be happy.

I hates the donks, but there is a special place in hell for fish and raiders.

matthewschiefs
05-06-2014, 12:10 AM
None will ever top the Paul Warfield trade in Cleveland sports history. It sent a shock wave through Cleveland that still ripples somewhat to this day. Warfield himself said he was stunned by it & never saw it coming.

I wish the Chiefs could find a receiver like Warfield to line up on the left and then another like Otis Taylor to line up on the right side. Alex would love throwing to those guys in their prime & if Warfield and Taylor would have able to play together and had Joe Montana throwing to them, they would have put up Jerry Rice-like numbers in their careers.

I don't know about that Cleveland had to watch Game 1 of the 2009 world series CC Sabithia (traded by the Indians after winning the cy young the year before) vs Cliff Lee (trade by the Indians the fallowing year after winning the Cy young the year before) That's painful. VERY painful

jap1
05-06-2014, 09:19 AM
I think this is a ploy to scare a team into thinking we might draft a qb so they will try to trade up to us. Is it just a coincidence this news broke out within a week of the draft?

On the flip side it could be the Chiefs front office trying to bluff Smith's agent into dropping the amount he wants. Negotiations have reportedly stalled. Maybe they are bluffing that if they don't get Alex's agent to come down in the demands that they are more than willing to move in another direction. I think it's all smoke and mirrors, though. The Chiefs have interviewed more than one QB and had no workouts. I'd be shocked if they took a QB earlier than 4th round.

brdempsey69
05-06-2014, 10:49 AM
On the flip side it could be the Chiefs front office trying to bluff Smith's agent into dropping the amount he wants. Negotiations have reportedly stalled. Maybe they are bluffing that if they don't get Alex's agent to come down in the demands that they are more than willing to move in another direction. I think it's all smoke and mirrors, though. The Chiefs have interviewed more than one QB and had no workouts. I'd be shocked if they took a QB earlier than 4th round.

I hope the don't take a QB at all in this draft. Next years class is said to be better & the Chiefs will have more picks. So regardless of whatever happens with Alex, it seems like it would be in their best interests to hold off on drafting a QB until next year.

Mongo
05-06-2014, 02:17 PM
If Houston wants Alex Smith, then have them either send the #1 overall pick to KC in the 2014 draft or send a 2014 2nd rounder ( #33 overall ) and a 2015 2nd rounder.

Alex Smith for the number #1 pick? You can't be serious. If Al were worth R1.01, discussions of his worth being between $14-17M would be moot. We'd be talking $20M and KC wouldn’t be trading him.

Maybe you meant Al and R1.23. Still not worth it to HOU.

brdempsey69
05-06-2014, 04:33 PM
Alex Smith for the number #1 pick? You can't be serious. If Al were worth R1.01, discussions of his worth being between $14-17M would be moot. We'd be talking $20M and KC wouldn’t be trading him.

Maybe you meant Al and R1.23. Still not worth it to HOU.

Didn't say it was worth it to Houston. I said if Houston wanted him, then that would be the asking price. I believe we did mention that it won't happen.

ctchiefsfan
05-06-2014, 05:01 PM
Exactly! We're delighted to trade Alex Smith to anybody that wants him and is willing to MASSIVELY OVERPAY for him.Couple of other guys like that on the roster too.

NWO
05-06-2014, 05:21 PM
I hope the don't take a QB at all in this draft. Next years class is said to be better & the Chiefs will have more picks. So regardless of whatever happens with Alex, it seems like it would be in their best interests to hold off on drafting a QB until next year.

Dorsey wants to build through the draft correct? Play Alex this year and draft a quarterback next. It's that simple.

texaschief
05-06-2014, 05:37 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000346983/article/chiefs-reportedly-willing-to-deal-brandon-flowers


Ha! Say what you want about the contract. They're not talking about this unless other teams are knocking on the door. He's not in negotiations... there's no reason to leak this unless there's some fire under the smoke. I'd be ok with a 3rd rounder if the Chiefs could get it.

brdempsey69
05-06-2014, 05:41 PM
Dorsey wants to build through the draft correct? Play Alex this year and draft a quarterback next. It's that simple.

With the cap space that the Chiefs DON'T have, they don't have much choice this year. Doesn't mean they won't resign Alex after 2014 and letting Alex walk after 2014 and drafting a QB is more than likely to backfire than to work out. It just so happens the Chiefs are ZERO for 17 drafting QB's since 1970, regardless of the regime in place.

Eydugstr
05-06-2014, 07:05 PM
I'm hoping that we don't jack with the current QB situation. We just don't have all the tools in place to make a rookie QB look great, and I'm not counting on this draft to change minds. If we're going to trade anybody would much rather it be Eric Berry or Brandon Flowers. Getting rid of either wouldn't be the season killer as losing Alex Smith would.

brdempsey69
05-06-2014, 08:10 PM
I'm hoping that we don't jack with the current QB situation. We just don't have all the tools in place to make a rookie QB look great, and I'm not counting on this draft to change minds. If we're going to trade anybody would much rather it be Eric Berry or Brandon Flowers. Getting rid of either wouldn't be the season killer as losing Alex Smith would.

Flowers is probably untradeable due to his age and salary. Berry could be traded, but I highly doubt anyone is going to give up more that a 2nd or 3rd round pick and it's more likely those teams would just draft a Safety rather than trade for Berry because many believe that 10 mill. a season is paying too much for a Safety - - especially one that struggles with covering TE's and WR's that are skilled route runners.

Eydugstr
05-06-2014, 08:49 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000346983/article/chiefs-reportedly-willing-to-deal-brandon-flowers


Ha! Say what you want about the contract. They're not talking about this unless other teams are knocking on the door. He's not in negotiations... there's no reason to leak this unless there's some fire under the smoke. I'd be ok with a 3rd rounder if the Chiefs could get it.

The question is, will anyone bite? How much dead money would the team be out?

TopekaRoy
05-06-2014, 09:09 PM
Was it Dorsey or Reid that said (paraphrasing) he believes it is a good idea to draft a QB every two or three years, regardless of need?

Bears HC Mark Trestman recently observed that since Tom Brady was drafted, NO QB taken in round 3 or later has become a long term quality starter. In other words, any QB taken after round 2 is a wasted pick. If the Chiefs are serious about drafting a QB they would HAVE to do it in the first round. I would hate that. With Smith locked in for 2014 and no R2 pick, we have too many needs to do that.

I think starting the rumour is a good idea though, for 2 reasons. It puts added pressure on Smith's agent to reach a deal and it may encourage some other teams to trade up and give us some extra picks.

Here is the problem. Smith's agent is known for wanting unreasonable deals. Alex may not be worth $15-18 million, but if no deal is reached and he walks, he can probably get that in FA, especially if he has a good year this year. If that happens and the Chiefs DON'T take a QB this year, they will have to gamble on Daniels, Bray and whoever is available when they draft next year.

I would still prefer to take that gamble rather than take a QB with our first pick this year. With the tougher schedule this season, it is possible that Smith won't have as good a year as he did last season and we can get him cheaper at the end of this season than we can right now. We would also have more picks, higher picks, and probably better QB candidates to choose from. Tyler would have another year to develop and could possibly be our starter in 2015 if we can't sign Smith.

By playing hardball, the Chiefs are gambling that they can get Smith at a bargain price and won't lose him. Smith's agent is gambling that his value won't go down if he doesn't make a deal. The Chiefs hold most of the high cards in this gambit. At the very worst, they can draft a QB of the future next May and, if they have to, franchise Smith for one year. Alex stands to possibly lose a lot of money if he doesn't reach a deal soon when his value is at it's highest.

I love Alex and think he is a better QB than most give him credit for. I would be willing to give him $15 or 16 Million per year for an additional 2 or 3 years, but not much more than that. Unfortunately, I don't think that would be enough to keep him.

ctchiefsfan
05-06-2014, 09:20 PM
Covered it nicely TopekaRoy.

brdempsey69
05-06-2014, 09:21 PM
Covered it nicely TopekaRoy.

I agree, but I must say the whole scenario is starting to stink.

ctchiefsfan
05-06-2014, 09:22 PM
The question is, will anyone bite? How much dead money would the team be out?

I believe that if we trade him the other team picks up the balance of his contract so we shouldn't be out any dead money, but we'd save $10.5 million in cap money this year.

ctchiefsfan
05-06-2014, 09:34 PM
I agree, but I must say the whole scenario is starting to stink.

Yeah....I'm not enjoying it. But if it brought us a good trade down opportunity then it would be worth all these rumors. I think it is entirely possible that this is all either...

1) Just part of the negotiating tactics Dorsey is using or

2) An effort to get somebody to trade up for our # 23.

It's the off season. The draft is coming. Rumors are flying. But usually most of the rumors are just that--rumors. Stuff that the talking heads dream up to justify what they get paid.

TopekaRoy
05-06-2014, 09:35 PM
I believe that if we trade him the other team picks up the balance of his contract so we shouldn't be out any dead money, but we'd save $10.5 million in cap money this year.

According to OverTheCap.com. Flowers' Contract carries $7M in dead money this season ($3.5M cap savings), $4M in dead money in 2015 ($7.5M cap savings) and $1M in dead money in 2016 ($8.75M in cap savings). If we trade him now we would still be on the hook for $12.75 million total.

NWO
05-06-2014, 09:45 PM
With the cap space that the Chiefs DON'T have, they don't have much choice this year. Doesn't mean they won't resign Alex after 2014 and letting Alex walk after 2014 and drafting a QB is more than likely to backfire than to work out. It just so happens the Chiefs are ZERO for 17 drafting QB's since 1970, regardless of the regime in place.

Well we would have more cap room if there wasn't such irresponsible spending by John Dorsey.

ctchiefsfan
05-06-2014, 09:56 PM
According to OverTheCap.com. Flowers' Contract carries $7M in dead money this season ($3.5M cap savings), $4M in dead money in 2015 ($7.5M cap savings) and $1M in dead money in 2016 ($8.75M in cap savings). If we trade him now we would still be on the hook for $12.75 million total.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that if we traded him the other team had to pick up his contract as it was written and therefore that would take us off the hook. Am I wrong on that?

brdempsey69
05-06-2014, 10:04 PM
Well we would have more cap room if there wasn't such irresponsible spending by John Dorsey.

And I'm sure that you could've done better Mr. Armchair GM. In case you didn't know it, the league instituted in 2013 a salary floor in addition to the salary cap. Dorsey had to spend some money & he was over a barrel regarding Bowe and you've already had it explained to you as to why.

TopekaRoy
05-06-2014, 11:05 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that if we traded him the other team had to pick up his contract as it was written and therefore that would take us off the hook. Am I wrong on that?

They would have to take over his salary, but the signing bonus the Chiefs gave him is the Chiefs responsibility. I'm not sure how roster and workout bonuses are handled. (Flowers has both in his contract.) Of course the Chiefs could always ask the team getting Flowers to pay a portion, or all, of the dead money, but that would probably lead to lower picks in return. In Flowers' case it would probably nix the deal.

ctchiefsfan
05-06-2014, 11:31 PM
Thanks Topeka!

Eydugstr
05-07-2014, 07:47 AM
According to OverTheCap.com. Flowers' Contract carries $7M in dead money this season ($3.5M cap savings), $4M in dead money in 2015 ($7.5M cap savings) and $1M in dead money in 2016 ($8.75M in cap savings). If we trade him now we would still be on the hook for $12.75 million total.

Thanks, TR.

Eydugstr
05-07-2014, 07:56 AM
Well we would have more cap room if there wasn't such irresponsible spending by John Dorsey.

Would you rather have the irresponsible drafting of Scott Pioli, with his "amazing" cap saving skills, and the accompanying lackluster results?

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 12:29 PM
PFF...I'm not sure I'd be using that as a reference material. PFF is to the NFL what Dungeons & Dragons is to medieval history.

So you're saying that they're completely off base when having Trent Williams, Joe Thomas, Jordan Gross, Jason Peters, and Tyron Smith as their top 5 LT's? Got it. Worthless.

These guys watch football for days and do their best to spit out grades you can understand when it comes to positions that are tough to grade. Where else can you find how many sacks, hurries, and QB hits a lineman gave up? Or how many QB hits and hurries a pass rusher had? Or what a QB's passer rating was when throwing at a certain defensive back? Or how many missed tackles a player had? Or how well a QB does when throwing to different areas of the field?

Do they get stuff wrong? Sure. Are there things to disagree about with them? Sure. But don't dismiss it as a worthless service. It's becoming commonplace for NFL teams and agents to use this as an extra resource as well, especially for contract negotiations. As of last year, 1/3rd of NFL teams subscribed to the service (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/sports/football/pro-football-focus-gaining-attention-for-its-ranki/nbLPG/). So people can continue to tout is as worthless. Many NFL front offices would beg to differ.

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 12:52 PM
So you're saying that they're completely off base when having Trent Williams, Joe Thomas, Jordan Gross, Jason Peters, and Tyron Smith as their top 5 LT's? Got it. Worthless.

These guys watch football for days and do their best to spit out grades you can understand when it comes to positions that are tough to grade. Where else can you find how many sacks, hurries, and QB hits a lineman gave up? Or how many QB hits and hurries a pass rusher had? Or what a QB's passer rating was when throwing at a certain defensive back? Or how many missed tackles a player had? Or how well a QB does when throwing to different areas of the field?

Do they get stuff wrong? Sure. Are there things to disagree about with them? Sure. But don't dismiss it as a worthless service. It's becoming commonplace for NFL teams and agents to use this as an extra resource as well, especially for contract negotiations. As of last year, 1/3rd of NFL teams subscribed to the service (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/sports/football/pro-football-focus-gaining-attention-for-its-ranki/nbLPG/). So people can continue to tout is as worthless. Many NFL front offices would beg to differ.

All you're telling anyone is to trust the eyes of PFF, instead of trusting their own eyes via the overhead camera. And like you said, they make mistakes, and Eydugstr and I are referring to O-Lineman and I already know PFF ratings are worthless regarding O-Lineman as they don't touch on the series of opponents that said player went up against or injury status.

I don't need the eyes of PFF. I've got a perfectly good pair of my own, and can review the same thing PFF is seeing via NFL Game Rewind.

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 01:01 PM
All you're telling anyone is to trust the eyes of PFF, instead of trusting their own eyes via the overhead camera. And like you said, they make mistakes, and Eydugstr and I are referring to O-Lineman and I already know PFF ratings are worthless regarding O-Lineman as they don't touch on the series of opponents that said player went up against or injury status.

I don't need the eyes of PFF. I've got a perfectly good pair of my own, and can review the same thing PFF is seeing via NFL Game Rewind.

So instead we should trust the eyes of the guy who said Branden Albert should have never been playing LT to begin with (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php/24019-What-Will-Happen-with-Alex-Smith?p=298439#post298439). OK!:lol:

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 01:07 PM
I'm sorry, I just can't get past your obsession with tearing Branden Albert down, as he's more than proven his worth at LT in this league. It usually all comes back to "well Albert played guard in college." Yes, he did. Behind Eugene Monroe, who is another great LT in this league. Eric Fisher made 2 starts at guard in college and 4 starts at RT. Good thing he didn't have another all-pro LT in front of him his senior year or else Chiefs fans might have the nutty idea to kick him inside to his "natural position" of guard.

Mongo
05-07-2014, 01:32 PM
All you're telling anyone is to trust the eyes of PFF, instead of trusting their own eyes via the overhead camera. And like you said, they make mistakes, and Eydugstr and I are referring to O-Lineman and I already know PFF ratings are worthless regarding O-Lineman as they don't touch on the series of opponents that said player went up against or injury status.

I don't need the eyes of PFF. I've got a perfectly good pair of my own, and can review the same thing PFF is seeing via NFL Game Rewind.
No stat known to mankind in any sport makes adjustments for quality of opponent or injury status. Are you saying all stats are worthless or just the ones that might grade favorably for players you've deemed below your standards? Such as Albert and Berry?

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 01:49 PM
So instead we should trust the eyes of the guy who said Branden Albert should have never been playing LT to begin with (http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/showthread.php/24019-What-Will-Happen-with-Alex-Smith?p=298439#post298439). OK!:lol:

That's right. He shouldn't have been playing LT to begin with, especially since he was Guard in college and high school. Add to that, it did nothing to help with the rebuilding of the Chiefs O-Line & taking several years for him to go from being a mediocre LT to an average LT and putting the idea into his head that he should be paid top-5 money, when he's only worth half of that. Just a waste of time. Could have been an All-Pro Guard during all those years that he was struggling to play LT, but we'll never know.

BTW, Stephenson played LT as well as Albert did during the final few games of 2013 and there really isn't any reason to think that a healthy Eric Fisher can't upgrade the LT position over Albert.

It's no secret that you always wore your cheerleader skirt & shook your pom-poms regarding Albert, but you can rest assured that I'm laughed a lot harder at you when you were saying last year that you were "confident the Chiefs wouldn't draft a Tackle" with their top draft pick in 2013, only to have Fisher drafted #1 overall. Tell us, how hard were you laughing at that?


No stat known to mankind in any sport makes adjustments for quality of opponent or injury status. Are you saying all stats are worthless or just the ones that might grade favorably for players you've deemed below your standards? Such as Albert and Berry?

Try learning how to read. I've said the PFF ratings are worthless regarding O-Lineman and that the overhead camera trumps them.

texaschief
05-07-2014, 01:56 PM
IMO, the only stats that matter in football are those of the QB. Stats become more and more useless as the number of players to field size ratio shrinks. Money ball works in baseball because it is primarily and individualized sport. 1 pitcher throwing to 1 batter who hits the ball to 1 player's "zone." You can measure how well each of those players does on an individual basis because there are measurable variables. You don't get that when you start talking about sports where players have to rely on other players to do their part in order for the play to work.

On a football field, a player shares a field with 21 other players. The variables on a football field are way too large to measure. You can cherry pick and pretend like you're comparing apples to apples, but the statistics for a LT for example, don't account for the infinite number of variables that could and do occur during each play. Statistics only account for a certain set of variables. If you were to say Jake Long gave up 5 sacks during the first half of the season, but only 4 during the 2nd half of the season, would you assume all variables were the same? Because that's what you're doing when you look a PFF stats. You assume all variables are the same. You're not accounting for overloaded sets, whether or not the TE, RB, or OG chipped the pass rusher, the caliber of pass rusher, etc. Stats are a black and white tool that only show a glimpse of the whole picture when it comes to football.

Football statistics are a tool and sometimes they are able to indicate tendencies and trends, but there are WAY too many variables on a football field for your stats sheet to be the only tool in your toolbox.

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 02:02 PM
Football statistics are a tool and sometimes they are able to indicate tendencies and trends, but there are WAY too many variables on a football field for your stats sheet to be the only tool in your toolbox.

It's far from the only tool, but they do a great job of giving you a good idea of the best, mediocre, and worst at a given position.

texaschief
05-07-2014, 02:06 PM
It's far from the only tool, but they do a great job of giving you a good idea of the best, mediocre, and worst at a given position.


According to stats based on immeasurable variables.

Mongo
05-07-2014, 02:07 PM
I believe Brendan Albert was recruited to college as a LT but was moved to guard to accommodate D'Brickashaw Ferguson and later Eugene Monroe -- two top notch LT.



Albert was/is a B grade LT. But not worth the money he wanted and eventually got. That is the main reason Eric Fisher was drafted. I believe the Chiefs wdv drafted someone else had they been able to lock up Albert to a reasonable deal.

The Chiefs would be in better shape with Ziggy Ansah or Star Lotuleilei (at NT, Poe at DE) and Branden Albert then just the project that is Eric Fisher.

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 02:15 PM
That's right. He shouldn't have been playing LT to begin with, especially since he was Guard in college and high school.

Without fail, there it is.


Add to that, it did nothing to help with the rebuilding of the Chiefs O-Line & taking several years for him to go from being a mediocre LT to an average LT and putting the idea into his head that he should be paid top-5 money, when he's only worth half of that. Just a waste of time. Could have been an All-Pro Guard during all those years that he was struggling to play LT, but we'll never know.

The free agent market disagrees with you, as he was obviously worth top-5 money and he earned the most guaranteed money out of all free agent LTs on the market and now has the 2nd most guaranteed money (http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/2015/guaranteed/tackle/limit-25/) of any LT in the league. So you're wrong, he's not worth half of that. He's worth what he got, because he got it.


BTW, Stephenson played LT as well as Albert did during the final few games of 2013 and there really isn't any reason to think that a healthy Eric Fisher can't upgrade the LT position over Albert.

Which is why I've always said you don't need a great LT when pretty good will do.


It's no secret that you always wore your cheerleader skirt & shook your pom-poms regarding Albert, but you can rest assured that I'm laughed a lot harder at you when you were saying last year that you were "confident the Chiefs wouldn't draft a Tackle" with their top draft pick in 2013, only to have Fisher drafted #1 overall. Tell us, how hard were you laughing at that?

I didn't think the Chiefs would draft a LT. They did and now they've moved on from Albert, who I'm glad they didn't pony up $26M guaranteed for. No left tackle is worth that in my opinion, but that's up to free agency to dictate what a team will pay a player.

Now it's up to Fisher to step up and show significant improvement now in year 2.

ctchiefsfan
05-07-2014, 02:15 PM
I don't think anyone is saying that PFF is utterly worthless. I think rather they are saying that PFF's value is considerably greater for some positions than others. And that it is certainly not "The Word of God".

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 02:17 PM
According to stats based on immeasurable variables.

It's not immeasurable variables. Did a LT throw a block to spring free a RB on a 5-yard run? Give them a plus. Did a LT commit a bone-headed false start penalty on 3rd down? Give them a minus. Did a LT give up a sack where he was badly beat? Give him a minus. It's not like they're using stats to develop these metrics. They're watching film and applying them consistently across everyone at a given position.

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 02:19 PM
I believe Brendan Albert was recruited to college as a LT but was moved to guard to accommodate D'Brickashaw Ferguson and later Eugene Monroe -- two top notch LT.



Albert was/is a B grade LT. But not worth the money he wanted and eventually got. That is the main reason Eric Fisher was drafted. I believe the Chiefs wdv drafted someone else had they been able to lock up Albert to a reasonable deal.

The Chiefs would be in better shape with Ziggy Ansah or Star Lotuleilei (at NT, Poe at DE) and Branden Albert then just the project that is Eric Fisher.

Rubbish. Albert was not recruited as a LT.

And Fisher didn't look like a project to me in his last 5 games, especially considering the 9 sacks that Albert allowed in his THIRD season in his last 5 games in 2010. In reality, it was Albert that was the project at LT and 6 years of wasted project at that.

Doubtful the Chiefs would be in better shape with someone other than Fisher with Albert having missed several games the last two years & the O-line being a sieve since Roaf and Shields retired. Star and Ziggy were good prospects, but Tackle was a bigger need contrary to what the Eric Berry worshipers thought & guys like Ziggy and Star can be had in this years draft.

matthewschiefs
05-07-2014, 02:30 PM
For the PFF stat debate

I've said before I'm not big on stats. They don't tell you the whole story. There's more to it.
For example a couple of years ago when we were debating Cassel there was an article posted on here about how bad he was. One of the criticisms was his low completion % but no where did it mention the Chiefs during that time led the NFL in dropped passes. Sure the stats were what they were but there was more to that story as I said at the time. When looking at things like PFF sure they can tell you what the stats were. And that's part of the story. But I need the full story.

On Fisher he was VERY disappointing with his level of play last season for a number 1 pick. But the rest of that story was that it was one of the weakest drafts in years. He was playing out of position. How much did that effect his play? The other thing is he showed progress last year. IF he can continue that he can still work out fine. It's up to him to put in the work and the coaching staff to get that out of him.

On Albert.

IMO he wasn't much better then slightly above average. I see people who talk about how he played and it's like we watched two different teams. Albert at times looked just as lost as Fisher did. It actually cost him games because he got hurt last year at one time because he got ABUSED badly by the defender. That along with the fact that he tends to miss games I really don't see his loss as a huge loss. If Fisher turns out to be just average we will be in about the same spot as if we had kept Albert.

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 02:44 PM
Without fail, there it is.



That's right because you keep blatantly ignoring it & blows you argument all to hell.




The free agent market disagrees with you, as he was obviously worth top-5 money and he earned the most guaranteed money out of all free agent LTs on the market and now has the 2nd most guaranteed money (http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/2015/guaranteed/tackle/limit-25/) of any LT in the league. So you're wrong, he's not worth half of that. He's worth what he got, because he got it.


Try again. The Dolphins paid him out of pure desperation because they know they aren't going to get one of the top 3 Tackles in the upcoming draft. That doesn't represent the entire FA market. He didn't earn anything, except maybe a good case of hemerroids. If Albert was worth what he got, then Dorsey would have paid him that last year before he started signing FA's in the 2013 offseason prior to the draft. But, it didn't happen, did it? Albert got the franchise tag as trade bait. So who's wrong here?



Which is why I've always said you don't need a great LT when pretty good will do.



Albert was neither & I'm not alone in that thought. I've seen many other Chiefs fans label him as "Princess Albert" or Mr. False-Start King. He always seemed to make mistakes in critical moments.




I didn't think the Chiefs would draft a LT. They did and now they've moved on from Albert, who I'm glad they didn't pony up $26M guaranteed for. No left tackle is worth that in my opinion, but that's up to free agency to dictate what a team will pay a player.



If one doesn't think an elite LT is worth that, then how can one think that a Safety is worth 10 mill a year and 34 mill in guaranteed, outside of being blinded by hero-worship?





Now it's up to Fisher to step up and show significant improvement now in year 2.

Everybody here has acknowledged as much. It will depend on how healthy he can stay through the course of the season more so than his blocking skills.

Mongo
05-07-2014, 02:46 PM
IMO, the only stats that matter in football are those of the QB. Stats become more and more useless as the number of players to field size ratio shrinks. Money ball works in baseball because it is primarily and individualized sport. 1 pitcher throwing to 1 batter who hits the ball to 1 player's "zone." You can measure how well each of those players does on an individual basis because there are measurable variables. You don't get that when you start talking about sports where players have to rely on other players to do their part in order for the play to work.

On a football field, a player shares a field with 21 other players. The variables on a football field are way too large to measure. You can cherry pick and pretend like you're comparing apples to apples, but the statistics for a LT for example, don't account for the infinite number of variables that could and do occur during each play. Statistics only account for a certain set of variables. If you were to say Jake Long gave up 5 sacks during the first half of the season, but only 4 during the 2nd half of the season, would you assume all variables were the same? Because that's what you're doing when you look a PFF stats. You assume all variables are the same. You're not accounting for overloaded sets, whether or not the TE, RB, or OG chipped the pass rusher, the caliber of pass rusher, etc. Stats are a black and white tool that only show a glimpse of the whole picture when it comes to football.

Football statistics are a tool and sometimes they are able to indicate tendencies and trends, but there are WAY too many variables on a football field for your stats sheet to be the only tool in your toolbox.

Team stats are even worse because of the small sample size of 16 games. For example, defense and offense are graded on YPG. In only 16 games, a non-representative game can throw the stat one way or the other. A defense could grade poorly because they are on the field all day. A defense could grade well because of a prolific offense. Yards per Play is far better.

Mongo
05-07-2014, 02:53 PM
Try learning how to read. I've said the PFF ratings are worthless regarding O-Lineman and that the overhead camera trumps them.


All you're telling anyone is to trust the eyes of PFF, instead of trusting their own eyes via the overhead camera. And like you said, they make mistakes, and Eydugstr and I are referring to O-Lineman and I already know PFF ratings are worthless regarding O-Lineman as they don't touch on the series of opponents that said player went up against or injury status.

I don't need the eyes of PFF. I've got a perfectly good pair of my own, and can review the same thing PFF is seeing via NFL Game Rewind.

I can read. You cited injury status and quality of opponent as specific reasons why PFF’s OL rankings were unreliable.

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 03:11 PM
I can read. You cited injury status and quality of opponent as specific reasons why PFF’s OL rankings were unreliable.

Then why the illogical question of "Are you saying all stats are worthless or just the ones that might grade favorably for players you've deemed below your standards? Such as Albert and Berry?" with it already having been specifically stated about the PFF stats regarding O-Lineman. Apparently, you didn't read it correctly.

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 03:13 PM
That's right because you keep blatantly ignoring it & blows you argument all to hell.

Albert playing guard in college has nothing to do with how well he plays LT in the NFL.


Try again. The Dolphins paid him out of pure desperation because they know they aren't going to get one of the top 3 Tackles in the upcoming draft. That doesn't represent the entire FA market. He didn't earn anything, except maybe a good case of hemerroids. If Albert was worth what he got, then Dorsey would have paid him that last year before he started signing FA's in the 2013 offseason prior to the draft. But, it didn't happen, did it? Albert got the franchise tag as trade bait. So who's wrong here?

The rest of the LT market got paid well...Monroe, Veldheer. There was plenty of demand for Albert to get him paid well. He got what he wanted. Can't fault the guy for that.


Albert was neither & I'm not alone in that thought. I've seen many other Chiefs fans label him as "Princess Albert" or Mr. False-Start King. He always seemed to make mistakes in critical moments.

Albert is a pretty good LT. I don't care what Chiefs fans call him. They also called Derrick Johnson a bust, said we HAD to re-sign McCluster (lol), and thought Matt Cassel was the future of the franchise after one good season (myself included).

He did commit bad penalties. Worthless PFF has him down for 9 penalties in 800 snaps and 5 in 722 snaps in 2012. That doesn't mean his skillset is instantly docked into some low tier LT that sucks. Okung (the guy you wanted to replace Albert) was charged with 7 penalties in only 441 snaps last year and 13 (yes 13) in 945 snaps in 2012. He's been one of the worst in the league when it comes to penalties. I don't mind using that as a barometer for LT play, but there's way more involved.


If one doesn't think an elite LT is worth that, then how can one think that a Safety is worth 10 mill a year and 34 mill in guaranteed, outside of being blinded by hero-worship?

That was back in the outdated days of the ridiculous rookie cap. Thanksfully, those days are over. It's really not Berry's or the Chiefs' fault that he makes that much. It doesn't mean he's been a bad player, it just means he makes too much and was lucky the league payscale overvalued highly drafted incoming rookies.


Everybody here has acknowledged as much. It will depend on how healthy he can stay through the course of the season more so than his blocking skills.

He needs to get better at moving guys when he run blocks. Too many times he goes nowhere and the defender wins at the line of scrimmage. When he gets in space, he is fantastic at getting in the way to spring running backs free.

He also needs to stop getting beat inside. He's very slow to adjust to inside moves. Getting stronger is a must, and will help with his punch when guys try to go inside. Unfortunately he's been on the shelf all offseason after labrum surgery.

Mongo
05-07-2014, 03:22 PM
Rubbish. Albert was not recruited as a LT.

And Fisher didn't look like a project to me in his last 5 games, especially considering the 9 sacks that Albert allowed in his THIRD season in his last 5 games in 2010. In reality, it was Albert that was the project at LT and 6 years of wasted project at that.

Doubtful the Chiefs would be in better shape with someone other than Fisher with Albert having missed several games the last two years & the O-line being a sieve since Roaf and Shields retired. Star and Ziggy were good prospects, but Tackle was a bigger need contrary to what the Eric Berry worshipers thought & guys like Ziggy and Star can be had in this years draft.
Rubbish? I did not make the story up.

The Berry worshippers know more than the Russell Okung boot lickers. That's really your issue isn't it? You wanted Okung and have probably gone out of your way to discredit Berry ever since. Fact is EB was drafted based on the fact that he is a game changer and a special talent. His 2 TD, 4 sacks, and 10 QB hurries last year are evidence of that. Despite his “struggles in coverage” his 3 INT ranked 6th amongst all safeties and first amongst SS.

No matter. Your opinion of Berry is in the minority. Your opinion of Albert vs Fisher by comparing 2010 season stats is worthless. Today, Fisher is a project and Albert is a B grade tackle.

A LT is just as available in this draft. Eric Fisher himself might have been available at #23 in this year’s class. So Ansah + Albert @$7-8M >> Fisher, no matter how you slice it. It’s moot, anyway.

Mongo
05-07-2014, 03:43 PM
Then why the illogical question of "Are you saying all stats are worthless or just the ones that might grade favorably for players you've deemed below your standards? Such as Albert and Berry?" with it already having been specifically stated about the PFF stats regarding O-Lineman. Apparently, you didn't read it correctly.
Fair enough. Drop my commentary. No stat accounts for quality of opponent or injury status. So why do those factors only render OL measurements worthless? Or, are you saying all stats are worthless? Or, are you saying that other stats do in fact account for quality of opponent and injury status?

Mongo
05-07-2014, 03:46 PM
Albert playing guard in college has nothing to do with how well he plays LT in the NFL.



The rest of the LT market got paid well...Monroe, Veldheer. There was plenty of demand for Albert to get him paid well. He got what he wanted. Can't fault the guy for that.



Albert is a pretty good LT. I don't care what Chiefs fans call him. They also called Derrick Johnson a bust, said we HAD to re-sign McCluster (lol), and thought Matt Cassel was the future of the franchise after one good season (myself included).

He did commit bad penalties. Worthless PFF has him down for 9 penalties in 800 snaps and 5 in 722 snaps in 2012. That doesn't mean his skillset is instantly docked into some low tier LT that sucks. Okung (the guy you wanted to replace Albert) was charged with 7 penalties in only 441 snaps last year and 13 (yes 13) in 945 snaps in 2012. He's been one of the worst in the league when it comes to penalties. I don't mind using that as a barometer for LT play, but there's way more involved.



That was back in the outdated days of the ridiculous rookie cap. Thanksfully, those days are over. It's really not Berry's or the Chiefs' fault that he makes that much. It doesn't mean he's been a bad player, it just means he makes too much and was lucky the league payscale overvalued highly drafted incoming rookies.



He needs to get better at moving guys when he run blocks. Too many times he goes nowhere and the defender wins at the line of scrimmage. When he gets in space, he is fantastic at getting in the way to spring running backs free.

He also needs to stop getting beat inside. He's very slow to adjust to inside moves. Getting stronger is a must, and will help with his punch when guys try to go inside. Unfortunately he's been on the shelf all offseason after labrum surgery.
Well done.

texaschief
05-07-2014, 03:53 PM
.... back on topic... I have realized what Alex Smith is... he's basically a Ponzi scheme. lol

We invested in him, he turned around a showed a good return on investment. Now, he wants us to invest A LOT more in him based on a moderate return on the previous investment...


IT'S A TRAP!! DON'T DO IT. Cut your losses now and move forward with whoever you've got after this season.

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 03:57 PM
.... back on topic... I have realized what Alex Smith is... he's basically a Ponzi scheme. lol

We invested in him, he turned around a showed a good return on investment. Now, he wants us to invest A LOT more in him based on a moderate return on the previous investment...


IT'S A TRAP!! DON'T DO IT. Cut your losses now and move forward with whoever you've got after this season.

Yep. If he's going to demand Romo, Cutler, Flacco money, good riddance.

matthewschiefs
05-07-2014, 03:59 PM
.... back on topic... I have realized what Alex Smith is... he's basically a Ponzi scheme. lol

We invested in him, he turned around a showed a good return on investment. Now, he wants us to invest A LOT more in him based on a moderate return on the previous investment...


IT'S A TRAP!! DON'T DO IT. Cut your losses now and move forward with whoever you've got after this season.

Good to get back on topic

But at this point I disagree.

I think it's best to see what Alex does this season before making the choice to move on. If we see more of the Smith that we saw at the end of last year IMO LOCK HIM UP let him finish his career a Chief. He still a a good 4 or 5 years left he hasn't taken as much of a beating as most of the QBs his age have. If Smith can give us a full year of what he did at the end of last season GO WITH HIM.

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 04:08 PM
Albert playing guard in college has nothing to do with how well he plays LT in the NFL.



It most certainly did & everybody saw his struggles adapting to the position, especially in 2009 and 2010, and precisely why a great majority were wanting him replaced.



The rest of the LT market got paid well...Monroe, Veldheer. There was plenty of demand for Albert to get him paid well. He got what he wanted. Can't fault the guy for that.



Yes I can. I can fault any player overvaluing himself & wanting to be paid more than he's worth. Obviously, Dorsey also faulted him and wouldn't pay him and let him walk.




He did commit bad penalties. Worthless PFF has him down for 9 penalties in 800 snaps and 5 in 722 snaps in 2012. That doesn't mean his skillset is instantly docked into some low tier LT that sucks. Okung (the guy you wanted to replace Albert) was charged with 7 penalties in only 441 snaps last year and 13 (yes 13) in 945 snaps in 2012. He's been one of the worst in the league when it comes to penalties. I don't mind using that as a barometer for LT play, but there's way more involved.



There. You said it yourself -- "way more involved". Such as the series of opponents that Albert & Okung went up against. Which of the two has gone up against the better series of opponents over the last 4 years? Do you Albert's penalty count would have been as low, had he gone up against the same series of opponents that Okung did? Highly doubtful. Okung is still the superior talent when both are 100% healthy.




That was back in the outdated days of the ridiculous rookie cap. Thanksfully, those days are over. It's really not Berry's or the Chiefs' fault that he makes that much. It doesn't mean he's been a bad player, it just means he makes too much and was lucky the league payscale overvalued highly drafted incoming rookies.



Yes it is the Chiefs fault -- specifically Pioli. If he had a brain in his head, he'd have been smart enough to realize that getting a two-fold upgrade to the O-Line with the selection Okung was a far better value than drafting a Safety that possessed neither elite speed or pass-coverage skills. Berry has been little more than a hero-worship icon & opposing offenses don't change their approach to the Chiefs defense because of Berry and opposing teams aren't afraid to throw at him.



He needs to get better at moving guys when he run blocks. Too many times he goes nowhere and the defender wins at the line of scrimmage. When he gets in space, he is fantastic at getting in the way to spring running backs free.



And what Albert getting almost literally ran over on running plays & driven into the backfield like I've seen countless times, even though Albert weighed 316 lbs.? That would lead one to believe that Fisher playing at 295 -- 300 lbs and at least being able to keep his guy at the LOS just simply needs to gain weight to correct the problem. And did you notice that Fisher didn't grab any DB's and twist them around like he was trying to do the two-step waltz and needlessly draw a flag?




He also needs to stop getting beat inside. He's very slow to adjust to inside moves. Getting stronger is a must, and will help with his punch when guys try to go inside. Unfortunately he's been on the shelf all offseason after labrum surgery.

He was slow in the 1st half of the season, not so much in his last 5 games. Having a bum left shoulder didn't help with giving up the inside charge, but he will have to improve in that area, regardless.

He hasn't been totally on the shelf. He's been in KC all offseason and working out to an extent that his surgery permitted. The Chiefs strength coaches have been with him through the offseason.

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 04:21 PM
It most certainly did & everybody saw his struggles adapting to the position, especially in 2009 and 2010, and precisely why a great majority were wanting him replaced.

He wasn't good early in his career. Neither was Alex Smith. Who cares?


Yes I can. I can fault any player overvaluing himself & wanting to be paid more than he's worth. Obviously, Dorsey also faulted him and wouldn't pay him and let him walk.

He obviously didn't overvalue himself. He got what he wanted in the end. Stop.


There. You said it yourself -- "way more involved". Such as the series of opponents that Albert & Okung went up against. Which of the two has gone up against the better series of opponents over the last 4 years? Do you Albert's penalty count would have been as low, had he gone up against the same series of opponents that Okung did? Highly doubtful. Okung is still the superior talent when both are 100% healthy.

Well since Okung has missed 30% of his team's games since he was drafted, it's impossible to say. Albert has missed 12% of his team's total games. Staley played against the same competition for the most part in 2012 and had 6 penalties.

Nevertheless, Okung committed two penalties in the Super Bowl against a Von Miller-less pass rush. So yes, he has a knack for committing penalties, like Albert, regardless of the competition.



We get it, you don't like Albert and he's an awful LT. Now back to Alex Smith.

ctchiefsfan
05-07-2014, 04:26 PM
texaschief....I think you are being just a little harsh.

Alex Smith showed us he was a pretty decent quaterback last year. He even showed some flashes of brilliance. And without a doubt he showed a great personal drive to "just get the damned job done".

He did look less-than-impressive the first half of the season. But, a certain amount of that should be written off to new team, new scheme, new coach. But he looked a lot better as an individual player the last half of the season.

I'm not at all sure however that last season earned him a long term $15 or so million per year contract with a lot of it guaranteed.

I can easily see him being worth a 5 year $70 million contract extension with say $15-$18 million guaranteed. Not what I would like to see us pay him, but I could live with it. That would really only commit us to him for 2014 and 2015 and if done right might free up a little cap space this year. But I doubt his "condom agent" would do that. In today's NFL, it's all about guaranteed money.

Alternatively, I'm happy to see him play out 2014 and depending on his performance either let him go in free agency (compensatory picks, a troubled team would probably grab him so the picks for the 2015 season would probably be good) or maybe sign a lower deal based on what looks like a rough schedule this year. If we went 7-9 or 8-8 in 2014 for that should certainly lower the demands.

I'd like to see us keep Alex Smith....unless Reid honestly thinks that in Bray or Chase Daniel we have some sort of "secret nuclear weapon" that only needs one more year of development.

In short, I figure that I have to trust Reid on this issue.

ctchiefsfan
05-07-2014, 04:33 PM
Good to get back on topic

But at this point I disagree.

I think it's best to see what Alex does this season before making the choice to move on. If we see more of the Smith that we saw at the end of last year IMO LOCK HIM UP let him finish his career a Chief. He still a a good 4 or 5 years left he hasn't taken as much of a beating as most of the QBs his age have. If Smith can give us a full year of what he did at the end of last season GO WITH HIM.

WELL SAID!!!!! This looks like a much tougher season than last year. If he plays through this season like he did through most of the last several games last season then he is worth the money his agent is looking for. But he hasn't proved it yet....at least not in my opinion. Let him play this season and show us who "The Real Alex Smith" is.

Mongo
05-07-2014, 06:14 PM
texaschief....I think you are being just a little harsh.

Alex Smith showed us he was a pretty decent quaterback last year. He even showed some flashes of brilliance. And without a doubt he showed a great personal drive to "just get the damned job done".

He did look less-than-impressive the first half of the season. But, a certain amount of that should be written off to new team, new scheme, new coach. But he looked a lot better as an individual player the last half of the season.

I'm not at all sure however that last season earned him a long term $15 or so million per year contract with a lot of it guaranteed.

I can easily see him being worth a 5 year $70 million contract extension with say $15-$18 million guaranteed. Not what I would like to see us pay him, but I could live with it. That would really only commit us to him for 2014 and 2015 and if done right might free up a little cap space this year. But I doubt his "condom agent" would do that. In today's NFL, it's all about guaranteed money.

Alternatively, I'm happy to see him play out 2014 and depending on his performance either let him go in free agency (compensatory picks, a troubled team would probably grab him so the picks for the 2015 season would probably be good) or maybe sign a lower deal based on what looks like a rough schedule this year. If we went 7-9 or 8-8 in 2014 for that should certainly lower the demands.

I'd like to see us keep Alex Smith....unless Reid honestly thinks that in Bray or Chase Daniel we have some sort of "secret nuclear weapon" that only needs one more year of development.

In short, I figure that I have to trust Reid on this issue.
You can’t call Alex Smith a good (B-grade, top 10) QB in one breath and then say he’s not worth $14-17M. Guess what his agent, Tom Condon, is probably saying -- he’s b-grade, top 10 and deserves Flacco money. That’s why this isn’t getting done. So if you like Alex Smith and think he’s good you have to accept he’s going to eat up the cap if you want to keep him.

In sports it’s hard to be the lone voice of reason and compete with those willing to overspend. Even in the best free agency system of all, the NFL, one idiot overpaying sets the market value for everyone else.

I agree with you. Wait and see how Al does against top teams before you pay him. It may cost more in the end, but I’d have a better feeling about overpaying him.

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 06:50 PM
Rubbish? I did not make the story up.


And what did you provide to validate that story, besides nothing? Why would Albert be recruited as LT to Virginia when Ferguson was already there. It's because he wasn't.




The Berry worshippers know more than the Russell Okung boot lickers.

Do they really? You sure don't sound like it. Wanting Okung drafted was from a football standpoint, not a hero-worship standpoint. Getting a two-fold upgrade to the O-Line at that time was a far better value than getting a Safety that doesn't have elite speed or elite coverage skills. At least Okung had elite strength to go with 36-inch arms.


You wanted Okung and have probably gone out of your way to discredit Berry ever since.



Quite the contrary. Didn't need to discredit him. Only needed to watch what has transpired with him on the football field & watching him try to cover TE's and WR's that are skilled route runners & simply point out the truth of the matter. As well as watching that big TE Gresham of the Bengals mock Berry right to his face in that 2012 game.

In other words, Berry done a good enough job on his own proving that he was overdrafted & overhyped.


Fact is EB was drafted based on the fact that he is a game changer and a special talent.

Guess again. It was politics orchestrated by Pioli due to the unpopularity of the Tyson Jackson pick the year before. Dorsey/Reid would not have made that pick. Neither would Dick Vermeil, Marty, or Hank Stram. They know that drafting Safeties that high is a mistake.

Berry hasn't been a game changer or a special talent & isn't that much better than Pollard, the guy he replaced.


His 2 TD, 4 sacks, and 10 QB hurries last year are evidence of that. Despite his “struggles in coverage” his 3 INT ranked 6th amongst all safeties and first amongst SS.


Big deal. It don't change the fact that the best SS in football in 2013 wore #31 up in Seattle and not only did he also have 3 picks, Kam Chancellor starred in the 2013 post-season going against TE's Jimmy Graham, Vernon Davis, and Julius Thomas consecutively, whereas Berry struggled in the playoff game against Fleener.

Therefore, what's really evidenced is that you don't have to spend a top 5 pick on a Safety to get good safety play, as Chancellor came from that same draft in round 5 and he's clearly been a better player than Berry since he took over the SS job for Seattle in 2011

BTW, Greg Wesley picked Tom Brady 3 times in a 2005 game and had 6 picks over an entire season 3 times in 2002, 2003, and 2005, and yet you were saying "Wesley couldn't hold Berry's jock" and now of course, are extolling the virtue of Berry making 3 INT's in an entire season. Looks like Wesley could not only hold Berry's jock, but he could use that jock to rip Berry's head off & take a dump down Berry's neck, as far a making INT's go.



No matter. Your opinion of Berry is in the minority.

One could interpret that as vast majority of dumba$$es outnumbering those possessing common sense and logic. So what? My analysis is based on what has transpired on the football field. & what has transpired has proven that he was overdrafted and he can be replaced with a cheaper alternative.

You're starting to sound like you crapped in your diaper because someone committed sacrilege against your false god that you worship so reverently ( Berry), as well as due to having to face the fact that selecting Berry at #5 overall wasn't the right choice.


Your opinion of Albert vs Fisher by comparing 2010 season stats is worthless. Today, Fisher is a project and Albert is a B grade tackle.


What opinion? I provided evidence to back it up as fact. Fisher did perform better in his last 5 games in 2013 than Albert did in his final 5 games in 2010 -- that is a fact. You are calling it "opinion" because it's not what you want to hear. And like I said it provides reasonable belief that Fisher can become a very good Tackle in the NFL much quicker than Albert did. Albert was the project LT for 3 years. To me Albert was grade C, not B, the last 3 years.



A LT is just as available in this draft.

Not at #23. Robinson, Matthews, and Lewan will all be off the board by #23 and those are the only ones that I'd compare to Fisher.


Eric Fisher himself might have been available at #23 in this year’s class.

Your aunt would be your uncle if she had balls, too.


So Ansah + Albert @$7-8M >> Fisher, no matter how you slice it. It’s moot, anyway.

Is that so? Did Ansah out produce Justin Houston or Hali? Did Ansah or Jordan win starting jobs early on? Does Ansah even fit a 3-4?

On the other hand, Fisher being willing to play the right side, gave Donald Stephenson a chance to get practice reps & playing time on both sides of the O-Line & now the Chiefs have two young, athletic Tackles that have experience playing on both sides of the O-Line -- something that Albert couldn't offer and thereby making Fisher and Stephenson more valuable and Albert expendable.

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 07:22 PM
Fair enough. Drop my commentary. No stat accounts for quality of opponent or injury status. So why do those factors only render OL measurements worthless? Or, are you saying all stats are worthless? Or, are you saying that other stats do in fact account for quality of opponent and injury status?

I have said neither.

I have said repeatedly that the overhead camera trumps the stat sheets regarding O-Lineman. The stats that are most important to me are points on the scoreboard and the number of W's in the Won-Lost column.

Eydugstr
05-07-2014, 07:57 PM
Alex Smith showed us he was a pretty decent quaterback last year. He even showed some flashes of brilliance. And without a doubt he showed a great personal drive to "just get the damned job done".

He did look less-than-impressive the first half of the season. But, a certain amount of that should be written off to new team, new scheme, new coach. But he looked a lot better as an individual player the last half of the season.

I'm not at all sure however that last season earned him a long term $15 or so million per year contract with a lot of it guaranteed.

I can easily see him being worth a 5 year $70 million contract extension with say $15-$18 million guaranteed. Not what I would like to see us pay him, but I could live with it. That would really only commit us to him for 2014 and 2015 and if done right might free up a little cap space this year. But I doubt his "condom agent" would do that. In today's NFL, it's all about guaranteed money.

Alternatively, I'm happy to see him play out 2014 and depending on his performance either let him go in free agency (compensatory picks, a troubled team would probably grab him so the picks for the 2015 season would probably be good) or maybe sign a lower deal based on what looks like a rough schedule this year. If we went 7-9 or 8-8 in 2014 for that should certainly lower the demands.

I'd like to see us keep Alex Smith....unless Reid honestly thinks that in Bray or Chase Daniel we have some sort of "secret nuclear weapon" that only needs one more year of development.

In short, I figure that I have to trust Reid on this issue.

A big part of the reason why he looked less than impressive were simply because of the drops. Cut those drops in half, and Alex's numbers go up.

This is aggravation that we don't need. I'd think it would be better for both parties to chill out, play this season and make a decision closer to contract's end. If Dorsey aggravates the situation by drafting a QB this year, not only would it eat up a scarce draft pick this year, it could possibly backfire in Dorsey's face if Alex played less than inspired football, and the drafted QB turns out to be a dud.

At the other end of this I suspect is an eager agent, which is why this crud happened when it could hurt us the most. But hey that's what they're paid for. Problem with that is, he's thinking of his commission first, player second, team footing the bill third.

IMHO Alex is worth the money. But the Chiefs can't spend what they don't have. So it very well might be a situation where KC is forced to start a newly drafted QB, going through all the growing pans QB's go through, and Alex Smith going to a team that might not have the coaching or player roster that KC does.

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 08:06 PM
He wasn't good early in his career. Neither was Alex Smith. Who cares?


Apples to Oranges comparison and totally ludicrous.





He obviously didn't overvalue himself. He got what he wanted in the end. Stop.



Yes, he did. He wanted top 5 LT money and he wasn't a top 5 LT. And no, I'm not going to sop at your say-so. I'll stop when I'm ready.



Well since Okung has missed 30% of his team's games since he was drafted, it's impossible to say.


Impossible for whom? Not for anyone who's watched them closely like I have via NFL Game Rewind over the last 4 years. Okung is clearly the superior talent.

BTW, Okung has been on the field for every Seahawks post-season game since they drafted him & they've made the playoffs 3 of the 4 years he's been there and won at least 1 post-season game, so in reality, the games he's missed in the regular season haven't kept him off the field in the post-season. Nor is it etched in stone that he would have missed that many games had the Chiefs drafted him. That's an unknown commodity.



Staley played against the same competition for the most part in 2012 and had 6 penalties.


And thank you for pointing out another Tackle that's better than Albert that just happened to come from the same school as Eric Fisher.




Nevertheless, Okung committed two penalties in the Super Bowl against a Von Miller-less pass rush. So yes, he has a knack for committing penalties, like Albert, regardless of the competition.


I only recall one penalty by Okung, but regardless, it doesn't change the fact that he's a better LT than Albert ever was or ever will be.



We get it, you don't like Albert and he's an awful LT. Now back to Alex Smith.

Talk about a case of the pot calling the kettle black, as evidenced by the "Yep. If he's going to demand Romo, Cutler, Flacco money, good riddance." regarding Alex.

1) There's no proof anywhere that Alex is demanding the same type of money. For all any of us know, a deal could already be in place with only the salary cap space standing in the way.
2) The fact that you want a QB drafted with the top draft pick in 2014, in spite of Alex proving last year that he is a quality QB and having a great post-season performance and in spite of having given up two 2nd round picks to acquire his services.

Yeah, we get it all right. You don't like Alex Smith and no matter what he does, or what Tyler Bray does, you'll still want a QB drafted in round 1, needlessly.

brdempsey69
05-07-2014, 08:15 PM
A big part of the reason why he looked less than impressive were simply because of the drops. Cut those drops in half, and Alex's numbers go up.

This is aggravation that we don't need. I'd think it would be better for both parties to chill out, play this season and make a decision closer to contract's end. If Dorsey aggravates the situation by drafting a QB this year, not only would it eat up a scarce draft pick this year, it could possibly backfire in Dorsey's face if Alex played less than inspired football, and the drafted QB turns out to be a dud.

At the other end of this I suspect is an eager agent, which is why this crud happened when it could hurt us the most. But hey that's what they're paid for. Problem with that is, he's thinking of his commission first, player second, team footing the bill third.

IMHO Alex is worth the money. But the Chiefs can't spend what they don't have. So it very well might be a situation where KC is forced to start a newly drafted QB, going through all the growing pans QB's go through, and Alex Smith going to a team that might not have the coaching or player roster that KC does.

Smith's agent is Tom Condon, correct? Just so happens that Condon is a former Chiefs player. Could be wishful thinking, but just maybe he'll be more lenient in his negotiations with the Chiefs since he was a former Chiefs player. One can hope.

But, the thought of giving up two 2nd round picks for a 2-yr loaner QB, doesn't look good at all, if Smith walks after 2014. We won't know anything until cap space is cleared, somehow.

Ryfo18
05-07-2014, 11:47 PM
Yes, he did. He wanted [and got] top 5 LT money and he wasn't a top 5 LT. And no, I'm not going to sop at your say-so. I'll stop when I'm ready.

Fixed


And thank you for pointing out another Tackle that's better than Albert that just happened to come from the same school as Eric Fisher.

The school they came from is completely irrelevant and you know that...unless you want to say Leonard Hankerson is on par w/ Andre Johnson and Michael Irvin.


Talk about a case of the pot calling the kettle black, as evidenced by the "Yep. If he's going to demand Romo, Cutler, Flacco money, good riddance." regarding Alex.

1) There's no proof anywhere that Alex is demanding the same type of money. For all any of us know, a deal could already be in place with only the salary cap space standing in the way.
2) The fact that you want a QB drafted with the top draft pick in 2014, in spite of Alex proving last year that he is a quality QB and having a great post-season performance and in spite of having given up two 2nd round picks to acquire his services.

Yeah, we get it all right. You don't like Alex Smith and no matter what he does, or what Tyler Bray does, you'll still want a QB drafted in round 1, needlessly.

Finally, back to Alex Smith. I think he's a solid QB. Haven't said otherwise after watching him play last season. But you know he's not worth Romo, Cutler, Flacco money (Flacco isn't worth Flacco money to be honest). Reports say talks have stalled, and you know it's pretty much a given a Condon represented player is going to demand top $$ based on what recent starting QBs have gotten when they re-signed. He can point to 11 wins. He can point to the playoffs. He can point to 13 wins in 2011. He can point to the fact that he has the lowest INT % aside from Rodgers since 2011...He's not going to be cheap.

Cap space is not in the way. Talks have stalled (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/05/stalled-talks-for-alex-smith-lead-to-report-of-chiefs-qb-interest/).

brdempsey69
05-08-2014, 12:25 AM
Fixed



The school they came from is completely irrelevant and you know that...unless you want to say Leonard Hankerson is on par w/ Andre Johnson and Michael Irvin.



Finally, back to Alex Smith. I think he's a solid QB. Haven't said otherwise after watching him play last season. But you know he's not worth Romo, Cutler, Flacco money (Flacco isn't worth Flacco money to be honest). Reports say talks have stalled, and you know it's pretty much a given a Condon represented player is going to demand top $$ based on what recent starting QBs have gotten when they re-signed. He can point to 11 wins. He can point to the playoffs. He can point to 13 wins in 2011. He can point to the fact that he has the lowest INT % aside from Rodgers since 2011...He's not going to be cheap.

Cap space is not in the way. Talks have stalled (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/05/stalled-talks-for-alex-smith-lead-to-report-of-chiefs-qb-interest/).

1. You fixed nothing. He wanted KC to pay him top-5 LT money, but they wisely didn't do it. Miami was being suckered out of desperation. If they had waited patiently, they could have gotten a better player in Veldheer for less -- like the Cardinals did.

2. The school being mentioned was coincidental.

3. The source behind that report, Ian Rapoport, is about as reliable as a dead cuckoo-bird. And yes, cap space is in the way. If the Chiefs had 20 mill in cap space as opposed to only 4.5 mill., it's likely a deal might have already been done.

ctchiefsfan
05-08-2014, 12:43 AM
A big part of the reason why he looked less than impressive were simply because of the drops. Cut those drops in half, and Alex's numbers go up.

This is aggravation that we don't need. I'd think it would be better for both parties to chill out, play this season and make a decision closer to contract's end. If Dorsey aggravates the situation by drafting a QB this year, not only would it eat up a scarce draft pick this year, it could possibly backfire in Dorsey's face if Alex played less than inspired football, and the drafted QB turns out to be a dud.

At the other end of this I suspect is an eager agent, which is why this crud happened when it could hurt us the most. But hey that's what they're paid for. Problem with that is, he's thinking of his commission first, player second, team footing the bill third.

IMHO Alex is worth the money. But the Chiefs can't spend what they don't have. So it very well might be a situation where KC is forced to start a newly drafted QB, going through all the growing pans QB's go through, and Alex Smith going to a team that might not have the coaching or player roster that KC does.

Now that right there is one hell of a fine post!!!!! Maybe we will get lucky and "Tom-the-Condom" will drop dead of a heart attack while Alex is playing out the 2014 season?

And yeah....I'm allowed to say that. I had my first heart attack 18 years ago at age 39. Another 3 years ago. IF Tom-the-Condom is going to drop dead, now would be a good time. Our Chiefs could use a little plain old luck.

ctchiefsfan
05-08-2014, 12:48 AM
And thank you Jesus! Tomorrow at this time we'll have forgotten this thread and be talking about the draft.

matthewschiefs
05-08-2014, 01:44 AM
Finally, back to Alex Smith. I think he's a solid QB. Haven't said otherwise after watching him play last season. But you know he's not worth Romo, Cutler, Flacco money (Flacco isn't worth Flacco money to be honest). Reports say talks have stalled, and you know it's pretty much a given a Condon represented player is going to demand top $$ based on what recent starting QBs have gotten when they re-signed. He can point to 11 wins. He can point to the playoffs. He can point to 13 wins in 2011. He can point to the fact that he has the lowest INT % aside from Rodgers since 2011...He's not going to be cheap.

Cap space is not in the way. Talks have stalled (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/05/stalled-talks-for-alex-smith-lead-to-report-of-chiefs-qb-interest/).

So let me ask. If he were to play this next season at the level he ended last year don't you think it would be worth it to pay him that money. Last season ended with the offense really starting to look like they had a lot of promise. Any signs of defense and we would have enjoyed the first playoff win in 20 years. If he can do that for a whole season I say PAY HIM.

The question on Smith is why the first part of the year was down. Is that just how he is. Was it just growing pains with a new head coach and a new offense with a new team. I think at the end of the day Alex is going to be around for a few years. But I'm glad they are going to make him earn it

brdempsey69
05-08-2014, 03:05 AM
^^Matt, I think you hit it right on the head. They'll let Alex earn it via a second season. Plus they will have some cap space in 2015, that's almost a given. If he has a banner year, then give him a 4-5 yr lucrative deal. If he doesn't, then next man up, if he chooses not to stay for a fair cost.

My biggest fear is if they draft a QB in round 1 of this draft, then Alex isn't going to put his name on the dotted line of any KC contract. He's been down that road before & would probably consider it a direct slap.

Ryfo18
05-08-2014, 10:12 AM
So let me ask. If he were to play this next season at the level he ended last year don't you think it would be worth it to pay him that money. Last season ended with the offense really starting to look like they had a lot of promise. Any signs of defense and we would have enjoyed the first playoff win in 20 years. If he can do that for a whole season I say PAY HIM.

The question on Smith is why the first part of the year was down. Is that just how he is. Was it just growing pains with a new head coach and a new offense with a new team. I think at the end of the day Alex is going to be around for a few years. But I'm glad they are going to make him earn it

I'm ready to see him in 2014 against the entire NFC West and a much tougher schedule. If he comes out of this unscathed, then by all means, pay him.

texaschief
05-08-2014, 01:10 PM
Defying logic and the odds... The Chiefs are picking 23rd and not a single QB has been taken yet. What do you do?


WHAT. DO. YOU. DO?

brdempsey69
05-08-2014, 01:16 PM
Defying logic and the odds... The Chiefs are picking 23rd and not a single QB has been taken yet. What do you do?


WHAT. DO. YOU. DO?

Trade down to the Jags spot in the top of the 2nd round and get two extra picks in the process. The Jags ain't taking a QB at #3. The Jags have a couple of extra picks from the Eugene Monroe trade & they could make the Chiefs an offer that Dorsey can't refuse.

matthewschiefs
05-08-2014, 01:21 PM
Defying logic and the odds... The Chiefs are picking 23rd and not a single QB has been taken yet. What do you do?


WHAT. DO. YOU. DO?

Take Johnny Manziel Not because I think he's going to be a great QB but it would give them all sorts of trade options to get more picks. If you can't then you have a guy who could still be a good QB. It's a risk with not only the pick but with Smith. But I would do it and see how things play out

Mongo
05-08-2014, 01:42 PM
Defying logic and the odds... The Chiefs are picking 23rd and not a single QB has been taken yet. What do you do?

I don’t think this scenario bodes as well for the Chiefs than if there’s only one or two. More demand, less supply. In any event the best move is to trade down.

ctchiefsfan
05-08-2014, 02:30 PM
Well....if no QBs have been taken, how many receivers are left? And then there is the unknown....Is Tyler Bray any good? And was Chase Daniels game against San Diego a fluke? Those are questions that I certainly don't know the answer to. Hopefully Reid and therefor Dorsey do know the answers.

So I can't answer the question due to insufficient information. But I lean towards brdempsey's answer.....Trade down.

TopekaRoy
05-08-2014, 02:45 PM
I like BRDempsey's suggestion the best, but my guess is that if anything close to that happens, one of the teams ahead of us will trade back so another team can trade it's 2nd round pick for a QB.

Eydugstr
05-08-2014, 03:56 PM
Defying logic and the odds... The Chiefs are picking 23rd and not a single QB has been taken yet. What do you do?


WHAT. DO. YOU. DO?

Trade down & get a couple more picks.