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Coach
05-10-2014, 03:30 PM
By Michael David Smith (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/10/chiefs-draft-georgia-quarterback-aaron-murray-in-the-fifth-round/)http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/cd0ymzcznguwzdbhnduynddiytjhm2yyzthlmtjjotqwyyznpt kzndi1njm4ytzmmta3owq3nwfjody1mdm5mzg2mzc41.jpeg?w =200&h=170&crop=1
Aaron Murray, a prolific passer at Georgia who saw his draft stock decline when he tore his ACL late in his senior year, has landed in Kansas City. The Chiefs selected Murray with a fifth-round pick in the 2014 NFL draft, No. 163 overall. Murray looks like a good fit for Chiefs coach Andy Reid’s…
Read more… (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/10/chiefs-draft-georgia-quarterback-aaron-murray-in-the-fifth-round/)

slc chief
05-10-2014, 04:03 PM
Love this pick. Now what to do with all the qbs we have. Not a bad problem to have.

matthewschiefs
05-10-2014, 04:05 PM
Love this pick. Now what to do with all the qbs we have. Not a bad problem to have.

I think Bray is going to be on the move IMO

jason1981
05-10-2014, 04:20 PM
I think Bray is going to be on the move IMO

I kinda liked bray thought he has potential. I would love to get rid of chase daniels though.

texaschief
05-10-2014, 04:55 PM
Bray won't be the guy to leave

Eydugstr
05-11-2014, 08:01 AM
I kinda liked bray thought he has potential. I would love to get rid of chase daniels though.

In Daniel's defense, he did look really good in that game agains the Chargers. But of the three, because of the amount paid, and with Bray and Murray having possibly a much better future potential, Daniels would be the one I'd part ways with.

jap1
05-11-2014, 10:49 AM
Bray won't be the guy to leave

Im assuming you are guessing Daniels would be the odd man out. If that is the case I wonder whether we could get anything (even a 7th rounder) for him via trade? Cutting him would save us 1.4 mil. Trading him would save us 3.4 mil. It's not a lot of cap space, but every little bit may count when we are trying to extend contracts.

One thing people aren't considering is that we may put one of the QBs on the practice squad. I don't remember how many games Bray was active for last year, but we could keep him or Daniels on the PS this year and keep Daniels.

The dilemma I see is that Daniels is a safe backup QB. He won't make a lot of mistakes (INTs) if he goes in for a game or two. We don't know what Bray or Murray would give us yet.

texaschief
05-11-2014, 09:59 PM
To put one of the guys on the practice squad, they first have to exposed to waivers. It's not just "oh, we can put him on the PS." Once any of these guys get exposed, I think they'll get picked up. If we expose anyone, I'd rather it be the guy who's 5'11 with no real chance at becoming a franchise QB. Bray and Murray have that potential... especially the 6'6 guy who destroyed all of Peyton Manning's records at Tennessee with a year left on the table. However, if I were a bettin' man, I'd have to put my money on Murray being the guy exposed.

matthewschiefs
05-11-2014, 11:59 PM
To put one of the guys on the practice squad, they first have to exposed to waivers. It's not just "oh, we can put him on the PS." Once any of these guys get exposed, I think they'll get picked up. If we expose anyone, I'd rather it be the guy who's 5'11 with no real chance at becoming a franchise QB. Bray and Murray have that potential... especially the 6'6 guy who destroyed all of Peyton Manning's records at Tennessee with a year left on the table. However, if I were a bettin' man, I'd have to put my money on Murray being the guy exposed.

I don't think there's any way they expose Murray. Bottom line in a stronger draft they felt good enough about Murray to draft him. They didn't feel good enough about Bray to draft him. That is a factor. Bray had some good moments in the preseasoon last year. I think people are making to much of that. Lots of guys have looked good against other teams 3s and 4s. I think Bray is going to be the odd man out

Eydugstr
05-12-2014, 12:57 AM
Here's another possibility...Murray being drafted for a combination of two reasons 1) Future trade bait and 2) Possible Alex Smith insurance.

jason1981
05-12-2014, 01:58 AM
I like bray over murray. And I like them both over daniels.

texaschief
05-12-2014, 01:58 AM
I don't think there's any way they expose Murray. Bottom line in a stronger draft they felt good enough about Murray to draft him. They didn't feel good enough about Bray to draft him. That is a factor. Bray had some good moments in the preseasoon last year. I think people are making to much of that. Lots of guys have looked good against other teams 3s and 4s. I think Bray is going to be the odd man out

The ONLY knock on Bray was his maturity... THAT'S IT. You're telling me a prototype QB is a discardable commodity now? Not likely.

matthewschiefs
05-12-2014, 02:18 AM
The ONLY knock on Bray was his maturity... THAT'S IT. You're telling me a prototype QB is a discardable commodity now? Not likely.

I just don't see the same potential in Bray as most on here I guess. Lots of guys have been built as the prototype qb and not worked. The fact that Bray in one of the weakest drafts there has been in years went undrafted tells me there's not a lot more the maturity. If he had that much potential then someone in that draft would have taken him IMO. But time will tell

brdempsey69
05-12-2014, 06:08 AM
I just don't see the same potential in Bray as most on here I guess. Lots of guys have been built as the prototype qb and not worked. The fact that Bray in one of the weakest drafts there has been in years went undrafted tells me there's not a lot more the maturity. If he had that much potential then someone in that draft would have taken him IMO. But time will tell

It was Bray's off-the-field incidents and maturity that pushed him out of the draft in 2013. If he had stayed clean, he would have been a 3rd rounder at minimum in 2013. I don't see Murray pushing him off the roster, as Bray has the better physical tools & many had lauded him as Tennessee's best QB since Manning.

I doesn't matter that Murray was drafted and Bray wasn't. It's what they do in KC that counts, once they get there. Murray wasn't drafted because the Chiefs are displeased with Bray or because Bray isn't making any progress. Murray was drafted as a hedge against the possibility of Alex Smith not returning after 2014.

TC is right. Bray is not going anywhere. Daniels is probably the odd man out very shortly. Bray's upside is way too high & they'd be fools to let him go without giving him a fair shake.

matthewschiefs
05-12-2014, 12:24 PM
I will agree to disagree

The thing that I come back to is that there have been a lot of guys that have had off the field issues that have been drafted. Hell Manziel has off the field and mauturity issues and was still a 1st round pick in a much stronger draft. If teams see the potential in a guy to outweigh the problems someone would have taken him in the later rounds. No one did. I think that a lot of Chiefs fans are overhyping Bray based off the preseason last season. That's just me. I just don't see him on the roster week 1. But time will tell

brdempsey69
05-12-2014, 03:03 PM
I will agree to disagree

The thing that I come back to is that there have been a lot of guys that have had off the field issues that have been drafted. Hell Manziel has off the field and mauturity issues and was still a 1st round pick in a much stronger draft. If teams see the potential in a guy to outweigh the problems someone would have taken him in the later rounds. No one did. I think that a lot of Chiefs fans are overhyping Bray based off the preseason last season. That's just me. I just don't see him on the roster week 1. But time will tell

His ability to see the field & throw the football isn't hype. He WAS pushed out of the draft for pretty much the same reasons that the LB Burfict was the year before -- both got into trouble with the authorities and that will get you pushed down to undrafted status. In both cases it had nothing to do with their playing skills.

Bray himself said that getting undrafted was a real eye-opener and he had to eat humble pie. He's been a model citizen since & even recently got engaged. Murray is not going to push him off the roster & he's arriving as damaged goods. I wouldn't be surprised if Murray gets stashed on IR for this year. Letting Bray go this soon would be a horrendous mistake & it's Daniel that should be the first to go, as he has no chance to be a #1 starter.

I had said before that Bray had turned in the best pre-season performance of any Chiefs rookie QB I'd ever seen and that's not hype, that's truth and in the judgement of many, he's earned the right to warrant a further look and be given time to mature.

matthewschiefs
05-12-2014, 03:51 PM
His ability to see the field & throw the football isn't hype. He WAS pushed out of the draft for pretty much the same reasons that the LB Burfict was the year before -- both got into trouble with the authorities and that will get you pushed down to undrafted status. In both cases it had nothing to do with their playing skills.

Bray himself said that getting undrafted was a real eye-opener and he had to eat humble pie. He's been a model citizen since & even recently got engaged. Murray is not going to push him off the roster & he's arriving as damaged goods. I wouldn't be surprised if Murray gets stashed on IR for this year. Letting Bray go this soon would be a horrendous mistake & it's Daniel that should be the first to go, as he has no chance to be a #1 starter.

I had said before that Bray had turned in the best pre-season performance of any Chiefs rookie QB I'd ever seen and that's not hype, that's truth and in the judgement of many, he's earned the right to warrant a further look and be given time to mature.

Maybe I'm making to much of him going undrafted but I've seen so many guys with off the field issues get drafted that I just feel there has to be something more to it. Hell there were guys who failed drug test this year that got drafted in high rounds. To me at QB if a team saw something in Bray that they felt he could have been something IMO they would have taken him.

As for the preseason Yeah he looked good. But he wasn't going against 1s or even 2s very often. There have been so many preseason wonders over the years that I just don't to caught up in that. I just think to many are overrating that.

I'm not saying Bray can't be good Or that he has no chance. But I just think that week 1 he won't be on the roster unless they do go the IR rout on Murray to give him a year to fix his knee. But ACL injuries are not as bad for a career as they use to be due to the advances in medical care.

brdempsey69
05-12-2014, 04:36 PM
Maybe I'm making to much of him going undrafted but I've seen so many guys with off the field issues get drafted that I just feel there has to be something more to it. Hell there were guys who failed drug test this year that got drafted in high rounds. To me at QB if a team saw something in Bray that they felt he could have been something IMO they would have taken him.

As for the preseason Yeah he looked good. But he wasn't going against 1s or even 2s very often. There have been so many preseason wonders over the years that I just don't to caught up in that. I just think to many are overrating that.

I'm not saying Bray can't be good Or that he has no chance. But I just think that week 1 he won't be on the roster unless they do go the IR rout on Murray to give him a year to fix his knee. But ACL injuries are not as bad for a career as they use to be due to the advances in medical care.

The thing is that all the previous guys that they drafted were also NOT going up against 1's or 2's in their preseason games in their rookie seasons and they showed next to nothing throughout those pre-seasons.

It would be foolish to let Bray go this early & would be better to keep him on the roster for at least 3 seasons to make a better assessment of whether or not he's going to be the guy.

Bray's skillset is similar to that of Nick Foles & there was talk of Philly possibly letting Foles go in the 2013 offseason & they even drafted Matt Barkley and had Vick. You can bet that now that Philly is glad they didn't let Foles go, but instead gave him a fair chance and the Chiefs need to do the same with Bray. It may take Bray an extra year to arrive, but keeping him around for 3 years to find out is the better way to go.

matthewschiefs
05-12-2014, 08:17 PM
The thing is that all the previous guys that they drafted were also NOT going up against 1's or 2's in their preseason games in their rookie seasons and they showed next to nothing throughout those pre-seasons.

Well lets be real for a moment here. Those other QBs never panned out. Just because he looked a lot better then them doesn't mean all that much IMO.


It would be foolish to let Bray go this early & would be better to keep him on the roster for at least 3 seasons to make a better assessment of whether or not he's going to be the guy.

Bray's skillset is similar to that of Nick Foles & there was talk of Philly possibly letting Foles go in the 2013 offseason & they even drafted Matt Barkley and had Vick. You can bet that now that Philly is glad they didn't let Foles go, but instead gave him a fair chance and the Chiefs need to do the same with Bray. It may take Bray an extra year to arrive, but keeping him around for 3 years to find out is the better way to go.

I disagree.

It all depends on what he has shown the Chiefs in his time in KC. If he hasn't shown much then by all means cut him. You can't just sit there with a guy on a roster for 3 years if he hasn't shown much. That would just be a waste of a roster spot.

brdempsey69
05-12-2014, 08:28 PM
Well lets be real for a moment here. Those other QBs never panned out. Just because he looked a lot better then them doesn't mean all that much IMO.



The difference was you could tell right away those other guys were going nowhere. At least Bray showed there's a chance that he can become very good.



I disagree.

It all depends on what he has shown the Chiefs in his time in KC. If he hasn't shown much then by all means cut him. You can't just sit there with a guy on a roster for 3 years if he hasn't shown much. That would just be a waste of a roster spot.

That's like saying the Packers should have cut Aaron Rodgers because he never really beat Brett Favre out for the starting job in 2005 -- 2007. What did Rodgers show those first 3 years that gave anyone a clue that he was going to be a good QB, other than what he may have flashed in the pre-season? Rodgers had the job handed to him when Favre left in 2008 & it worked out for them.

It's Chase Daniel that may prove to be wasting a roster spot by the end of this upcoming pre-season and maybe they can trade him to somebody for a player at another position.

texaschief
05-12-2014, 09:26 PM
Personally, I would have a pretty big problem just cutting Bray. He has value. If he's not a Chief in 2014, he needs to be traded... not released or exposed to waivers. The Chiefs will be making some FA moves over the summer to try and plug some holes. I think releasing Daniel is the best option because it would free up a little money that could be used in such a fashion. Hell, I'd even sign Smith to a 1 or 2 year extension and let Bray and Murray sit behind Smith a la Aaron Rogers. Let Smith show these guys how to be a pro and be successful in Reid's system, then let the best QB play for a vastly reduced salary than what you're paying Smith.

We'll see how it goes, but there were calls from the KC media pushing for Bray to be #2 in 2013 instead of Daniel. I think that's saying something. Murray could have been drafted just because the Chiefs don't want to be paying their #3 QB $3+m/yr. Something to think about.

matthewschiefs
05-12-2014, 09:29 PM
The difference was you could tell right away those other guys were going nowhere. At least Bray showed there's a chance that he can become very good.

Very ture. But like I said there have been many preseason next big things that have gone the other way. I was just saying I don't put a large amount of stock into it.



That's like saying the Packers should have cut Aaron Rodgers because he never really beat Brett Favre out for the starting job in 2005 -- 2007. What did Rodgers show those first 3 years that gave anyone a clue that he was going to be a good QB, other than what he may have flashed in the pre-season? Rodgers had the job handed to him when Favre left in 2008 & it worked out for them.

It's Chase Daniel that may prove to be wasting a roster spot by the end of this upcoming pre-season and maybe they can trade him to somebody for a player at another position.

Not exactly

Rodgers first of all was much highly thought of then Bray. He was thought of being worth a first rounder.

Besides that. There are lots of ways for a QB to show a team that they are getting better.. They get time in practice to show coaches something.They will get time in camps and workouts to show something. Things that we as fans don't get to see much of but the coaches do. If Bray hasn't shown any growth in those then keeping him would just be a waste of a spot IMO

matthewschiefs
05-12-2014, 09:34 PM
Personally, I would have a pretty big problem just cutting Bray. He has value. If he's not a Chief in 2014, he needs to be traded... not released or exposed to waivers. The Chiefs will be making some FA moves over the summer to try and plug some holes. I think releasing Daniel is the best option because it would free up a little money that could be used in such a fashion. Hell, I'd even sign Smith to a 1 or 2 year extension and let Bray and Murray sit behind Smith a la Aaron Rogers. Let Smith show these guys how to be a pro and be successful in Reid's system, then let the best QB play for a vastly reduced salary than what you're paying Smith.

We'll see how it goes, but there were calls from the KC media pushing for Bray to be #2 in 2013 instead of Daniel. I think that's saying something. Murray could have been drafted just because the Chiefs don't want to be paying their #3 QB $3+m/yr. Something to think about.

It's easy to say that they should trade Bray actually doing so would be diffrent.

For Bray to get any real Value he's really going to have to put on a show this preseason. If he's able to do that then I would say Daniel would be the odd man out.

texaschief
05-12-2014, 10:09 PM
It's easy to say that they should trade Bray actually doing so would be diffrent.

For Bray to get any real Value he's really going to have to put on a show this preseason. If he's able to do that then I would say Daniel would be the odd man out.

All Bray needs to do is at least be comparable to Daniel during the summer and preseason. He doesn't have a $3m salary. If Bray is anywhere near being as productive as Daniel, Chase is gone. Again, many people were saying Bray outperformed Daniel last preseason. Daniel had a good showing against SD in week 17. Maybe the Chiefs can get a 7th round pick or something for him as we head into training camp.

jap1
05-12-2014, 10:47 PM
The ONLY knock on Bray was his maturity... THAT'S IT. You're telling me a prototype QB is a discardable commodity now? Not likely.

His maturity and on field decision making. He would often make bad throw into traffic for no reason.

Ryfo18
05-12-2014, 11:07 PM
The ONLY knock on Bray was his maturity... THAT'S IT. You're telling me a prototype QB is a discardable commodity now? Not likely.

If you ignore his immobility, poor decision making, sloppy mechanics, and intermediate accuracy issues, then yeah...his only knock is his maturity. Quarterbacks struggling to complete 60% of their passes in college typically have real issues in the pros.

Always liked this read (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/john_lopez/07/08/qb.rule/)...not the gospel, but definite trends relevant in the data.

He's got a big arm, but he's far from a polished QB prospect.

matthewschiefs
05-12-2014, 11:21 PM
If you ignore his immobility, poor decision making, sloppy mechanics, and intermediate accuracy issues, then yeah...his only knock is his maturity. Quarterbacks struggling to complete 60% of their passes in college typically have real issues in the pros.

Always liked this read (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/john_lopez/07/08/qb.rule/)...not the gospel, but definite trends relevant in the data.

He's got a big arm, but he's far from a polished QB prospect.

Those things along with the off the field stuff would lead to a guy going undrafted and makes more sense to me.

I don't get into college football to much but I do watch a lot of it and get a lot of SEC games. I can't say I ever was impressed with Bray. Murray on the other hand I've had my eye on for a while now. He just stood out to me more. But time will tell how he works out in the NFL. He is not a proven guy either. But I still have a feeling that Bray will be off the roster one way or anther by week 1.

Ryfo18
05-12-2014, 11:33 PM
Those things along with the off the field stuff would lead to a guy going undrafted and makes more sense to me.

I don't get into college football to much but I do watch a lot of it and get a lot of SEC games. I can't say I ever was impressed with Bray. Murray on the other hand I've had my eye on for a while now. He just stood out to me more. But time will tell how he works out in the NFL. He is not a proven guy either. But I still have a feeling that Bray will be off the roster one way or anther by week 1.

Don't get me wrong at all...I hope Bray or Murray becomes a cheap QBOTF, but the former is being vastly overrated on here in terms of his NFL readiness and actual ability.

Seek
05-13-2014, 08:49 AM
It was Bray's off-the-field incidents and maturity that pushed him out of the draft in 2013. If he had stayed clean, he would have been a 3rd rounder at minimum in 2013. I don't see Murray pushing him off the roster, as Bray has the better physical tools & many had lauded him as Tennessee's best QB since Manning.

I doesn't matter that Murray was drafted and Bray wasn't. It's what they do in KC that counts, once they get there. Murray wasn't drafted because the Chiefs are displeased with Bray or because Bray isn't making any progress. Murray was drafted as a hedge against the possibility of Alex Smith not returning after 2014.

TC is right. Bray is not going anywhere. Daniels is probably the odd man out very shortly. Bray's upside is way too high & they'd be fools to let him go without giving him a fair shake.

What is everyone basing this off... What has Bray done for anyone to make any logical argument that Bray is better than Murray or the one to stay on the roster. He was not drafted because he was horrible in his interviews. Many said, that he was physically gifted but to stupid to be an NFL Qb. He has not played a single down in the NFL yet he is better than a guy the Chiefs felt was worth actually drafting when there was other need. Clearly, the Chiefs would be the ones who knows what Bray is.

Now I am not saying he is garbage, but he has shown nothing for anyone to make the opinion that he is better than Murray or Daniel.

Now purely speaking for contract issues, I would think Daniel is the odd man out, but I would hate to let Daniel go if things with Alex never comes to terms leaving us only Bray and Murray next year. Neither one of them have proved anything, while Daniel actually has proved he is a viable back up.

Bike
05-13-2014, 10:16 AM
However this all pans out, it sure is nice to have 4 decent QB's (1 proven) on the roster with some upside. When was the last time we could say that?

brdempsey69
05-13-2014, 11:13 AM
What is everyone basing this off... What has Bray done for anyone to make any logical argument that Bray is better than Murray or the one to stay on the roster. He was not drafted because he was horrible in his interviews. Many said, that he was physically gifted but to stupid to be an NFL Qb. He has not played a single down in the NFL yet he is better than a guy the Chiefs felt was worth actually drafting when there was other need. Clearly, the Chiefs would be the ones who knows what Bray is.

Now I am not saying he is garbage, but he has shown nothing for anyone to make the opinion that he is better than Murray or Daniel.

Now purely speaking for contract issues, I would think Daniel is the odd man out, but I would hate to let Daniel go if things with Alex never comes to terms leaving us only Bray and Murray next year. Neither one of them have proved anything, while Daniel actually has proved he is a viable back up.

Until he proves otherwise, I have reasonable suspicion to believe that Murray is just another Stanzi and/or Croyle.

As for Bray being knocked for being stupid, I recall same knock being put on Terry Bradshaw and as the 1st TB coach John McKay said "I'd love to have a QB dumb enough to lead my team to 4 SB wins".

As for Bray not showing anything, many who saw the preseason final last year would differ. It was more like Daniel doing nothing to show he was better than Bray throughout the preseason.

brdempsey69
05-13-2014, 11:52 AM
Got to love this quote from the article:

"As a Bronco fan I have no clue what Elway is doing. He must find a replacement for the choke artist he has at QB."

Seek
05-13-2014, 12:43 PM
Until he proves otherwise, I have reasonable suspicion to believe that Murray is just another Stanzi and/or Croyle.

As for Bray being knocked for being stupid, I recall same knock being put on Terry Bradshaw and as the 1st TB coach John McKay said "I'd love to have a QB dumb enough to lead my team to 4 SB wins".

As for Bray not showing anything, many who saw the preseason final last year would differ. It was more like Daniel doing nothing to show he was better than Bray throughout the preseason.

Murray, was considered by some as the #1 Qb in the draft last year if he came out and definately a top 3 QB but he elected to go back to school and got hurt.

Again, I am not knocking Bray but we have seen nothing to make the opinion either for or against, except for the fact the Chiefs went and possibly drafted his replacement. They are the only people who truly have seen enough of him to make an fair opinion. I think Murray is potentionally a very good QB specially given a year to develop and heal. He is definately not a Stanzi or Croyle but again, he has also done nothing in the NFL for us to get a read on just as Bray hasn't. There is nothing to Say Bray is not another Stanzi other than he beat out Stanzi for a roster spot but did not take the back up role from Daniel.

brdempsey69
05-13-2014, 01:53 PM
Murray, was considered by some as the #1 Qb in the draft last year if he came out and definately a top 3 QB but he elected to go back to school and got hurt.

Again, I am not knocking Bray but we have seen nothing to make the opinion either for or against, except for the fact the Chiefs went and possibly drafted his replacement. They are the only people who truly have seen enough of him to make an fair opinion. I think Murray is potentionally a very good QB specially given a year to develop and heal. He is definately not a Stanzi or Croyle but again, he has also done nothing in the NFL for us to get a read on just as Bray hasn't. There is nothing to Say Bray is not another Stanzi other than he beat out Stanzi for a roster spot but did not take the back up role from Daniel.

What Bray or Murray did in college is completely irrelevant. It's what they do in KC that counts. I've seen this scenario well over a dozen times where the Chiefs drafted QB's who were great in college, but completely flubbed once they got to KC.

And Daniel was anointed the #2 QB, as soon as he signed on and that wasn't going to change in 2013, regardless of how well a 1st-yr QB showed in the preseason. Bray was a 21-year rookie and it was universally known he was going to need at least 2 to 3 years to develop and mature -- same as Murray will. Daniel isn't a lock for the #2 this year, however, and I'm inclined to believe Murray was drafted with Daniel's displacement in mind, more so than Bray. Daniel is just signed to a 3-yr deal & unless by some fat chance he proves he can be the #1 guy for the Chiefs, then he won't be around after that 3-yr deal expires.

Seek
05-13-2014, 03:36 PM
What Bray or Murray did in college is completely irrelevant. It's what they do in KC that counts. I've seen this scenario well over a dozen times where the Chiefs drafted QB's who were great in college, but completely flubbed once they got to KC.

And Daniel was anointed the #2 QB, as soon as he signed on and that wasn't going to change in 2013, regardless of how well a 1st-yr QB showed in the preseason. Bray was a 21-year rookie and it was universally known he was going to need at least 2 to 3 years to develop and mature -- same as Murray will. Daniel isn't a lock for the #2 this year, however, and I'm inclined to believe Murray was drafted with Daniel's displacement in mind, more so than Bray. Daniel is just signed to a 3-yr deal & unless by some fat chance he proves he can be the #1 guy for the Chiefs, then he won't be around after that 3-yr deal expires.

What has Bray done to give you this strong of a biased opinion other than not play to prove he is better or worse than any QB on this team. My point is, only the Chiefs can trully give a true opinion and they just drafted a QB. So either Bray is not what you think he is, and they drafted Murray. Or they are very high on both Murray and Bray and either Daniel or Smith are potentionally replaced.

brdempsey69
05-13-2014, 03:47 PM
What has Bray done to give you this strong of a biased opinion other than not play to prove he is better or worse than any QB on this team. My point is, only the Chiefs can trully give a true opinion and they just drafted a QB. So either Bray is not what you think he is, and they drafted Murray. Or they are very high on both Murray and Bray and either Daniel or Smith are potentionally replaced.

Bray's showing in the final preseason game was the best of any rookie QB I've ever seen playing in the pre-season in their 1st year with the Chiefs -- hands down. If that didn't convince you of Bray's potential, then you weren't paying attention.

Seek
05-13-2014, 04:10 PM
Bray's showing in the final preseason game was the best of any rookie QB I've ever seen playing in the pre-season in their 1st year with the Chiefs -- hands down. If that didn't convince you of Bray's potential, then you weren't paying attention.

I have to see it against starters before I get to excited. Again, I am not against Bray. I like him and want to keep him. I don't know where the Chiefs are going with this pick and I have a feeling a decision is going to be made that upsets a good amount of fans. I just can't give a valid opinion in favor or against Bray or Murray before making strong statements that one is better than the other. Based on the current drafting of Murray, I have to think the Chiefs like Murray. What does that mean for Bray, I have no clue but there is no factual proof that Bray is better than Murray or Factual proof to say he isn't.

matthewschiefs
05-13-2014, 05:01 PM
I have to see it against starters before I get to excited. Again, I am not against Bray. I like him and want to keep him. I don't know where the Chiefs are going with this pick and I have a feeling a decision is going to be made that upsets a good amount of fans. I just can't give a valid opinion in favor or against Bray or Murray before making strong statements that one is better than the other. Based on the current drafting of Murray, I have to think the Chiefs like Murray. What does that mean for Bray, I have no clue but there is no factual proof that Bray is better than Murray or Factual proof to say he isn't.

THIS

It's one thing to do it against 2s and 3s in the preseason. It's anther to do it when it counts. Bray looked good in preseason Ok that's great. But it doesn't mean much. It gets people excited for sure but that has happened to many qbs that have never done anything. I think people get to caught up in that preseason outing. If he shows it against stronger competition then hell yeah give him his shot. But until then he's just anther guy who looked good going against backups.

brdempsey69
05-13-2014, 05:12 PM
^^The point being missed here is that none of the QB's that the Chiefs have ever drafted looked good going against 2's or 3's in the pre-season and if they DON'T look good going against 2's and 3's, then they don't stand a chance of ever looking good going up against 1's.

Common sense, I would think.

matthewschiefs
05-13-2014, 05:43 PM
^^The point being missed here is that none of the QB's that the Chiefs have ever drafted looked good going against 2's or 3's in the pre-season and if they DON'T look good going against 2's and 3's, then they don't stand a chance of ever looking good going up against 1's.

Common sense, I would think.

The point isn't being missed at all.

It's just as you have even stated the QBs we have drafted haven't been good. So he looks better then guys we know have failed. It's still against backups and the point still stands that there have been many guys who in the preseason have looked good and never made it as a starter. Hell if you went by preseason Ryan Leaf looked like the sure thing compared to Peyton Manning in there first preseason. Looking good in the preseason is nice and all but people make to much out of it.

brdempsey69
05-13-2014, 06:11 PM
The point isn't being missed at all.

It's just as you have even stated the QBs we have drafted haven't been good. So he looks better then guys we know have failed. It's still against backups and the point still stands that there have been many guys who in the preseason have looked good and never made it as a starter. Hell if you went by preseason Ryan Leaf looked like the sure thing compared to Peyton Manning in there first preseason. Looking good in the preseason is nice and all but people make to much out of it.

Leaf was a guy who imploded in his 3rd regular season game and just flat out quit. He's not a good example at all.

You're essentially telling me that Murray's college stats are enough to cast Bray aside and that Bray shouldn't be given a fair chance, just because the Chiefs spent a draft pick on Murray and Bray was undrafted. Sorry, but that is illogical. Murray is damaged goods. Bray is fully fit and healthy and has the better physical tools. Bray's biggest question is how quickly he'll learn Andy Reid's Offense and fine-tune his game. His upside has never been questioned and it's still higher than Murray's regardless of what happened in college.

matthewschiefs
05-13-2014, 06:45 PM
Leaf was a guy who imploded in his 3rd regular season game and just flat out quit. He's not a good example at all.

You're essentially telling me that Murray's college stats are enough to cast Bray aside and that Bray shouldn't be given a fair chance, just because the Chiefs spent a draft pick on Murray and Bray was undrafted. Sorry, but that is illogical. Murray is damaged goods. Bray is fully fit and healthy and has the better physical tools. Bray's biggest question is how quickly he'll learn Andy Reid's Offense and fine-tune his game. His upside has never been questioned and it's still higher than Murray's regardless of what happened in college.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just predicting what I think will happen. I think Murray will push Bray out. I'm just not as high on Bray as you are.

I'm high on Murray as I've stated. I watched a lot of him and Bray in college. Murray excited me Bray didn't. You're right that really means nothing right now, But I think the same will happen in the pros. Time will tell. But if Bray does do better the Murray then Murray clearly won't push him out. I'm just predicting what I think will happen.

matthewschiefs
05-13-2014, 06:48 PM
And to better explain my preseason point

If I were to point to a QB prospect and say they are better then Brodie Croyle and Ricky Stanzi would that get anyone excited.

Yes Bray looked better then them but that's not exactly saying a whole lot.

brdempsey69
05-13-2014, 07:01 PM
And to better explain my preseason point

If I were to point to a QB prospect and say they are better then Brodie Croyle and Ricky Stanzi would that get anyone excited.

Yes Bray looked better then them but that's not exactly saying a whole lot.

That's not what I said. I said Bray looked better than ALL of the QB's that they drafted did in their preseason appearances in their rookie campaigns. That's going back to 1970 and that's just how bad it's been for drafted QB's in KC.

matthewschiefs
05-13-2014, 07:19 PM
That's not what I said. I said Bray looked better than ALL of the QB's that they drafted did in their preseason appearances in their rookie campaigns. That's going back to 1970 and that's just how bad it's been for drafted QB's in KC.
I know that I was just using the 2 most recent examples. As I'm to lazy to look up the others LOL Saying that he looked better then bad QBS just isn't saying much

NWO
05-13-2014, 09:24 PM
I'm not saying that at all. I'm just predicting what I think will happen. I think Murray will push Bray out. I'm just not as high on Bray as you are.

I'm high on Murray as I've stated. I watched a lot of him and Bray in college. Murray excited me Bray didn't. You're right that really means nothing right now, But I think the same will happen in the pros. Time will tell. But if Bray does do better the Murray then Murray clearly won't push him out. I'm just predicting what I think will happen.

Could not agree more. Murray will push Bray out this year or next. Actually, there is a chance both of them stay if we release Daniel soon, but one thing is for sure: By drafting Aaron Murray Andy Reid wants Murray in a Chiefs uniform.

NWO
05-13-2014, 09:25 PM
That's not what I said. I said Bray looked better than ALL of the QB's that they drafted did in their preseason appearances in their rookie campaigns. That's going back to 1970 and that's just how bad it's been for drafted QB's in KC.

The bottom line is this: Chiefs drafted Murray; They didn't draft Bray.

NWO
05-13-2014, 09:26 PM
Got to love this quote from the article:

"As a Bronco fan I have no clue what Elway is doing. He must find a replacement for the choke artist he has at QB."

I would take him in a heartbeat.

matthewschiefs
05-13-2014, 09:54 PM
The bottom line is this: Chiefs drafted Murray; They didn't draft Bray.

They drafted Murray when Murray was in a much stronger draft. That says they think higher of him then what they thought of Bray. Bray they let go with the chance of someone else taking him. If Bray has made a major step up then he really has a chance to stay. If he hasn't then I think he's gone. It's really that simple

NWO
05-13-2014, 09:58 PM
They drafted Murray when Murray was in a much stronger draft. That says they think higher of him then what they thought of Bray. Bray they let go with the chance of someone else taking him. If Bray has made a major step up then he really has a chance to stay. If he hasn't then I think he's gone. It's really that simple

I mean, they could keep Bray if they believe Daniel is eating too much cap. I also think Murray will be put on pup before the season starts, but debating Murray vs. Bray, it's pretty obvious who Reid prefers.

matthewschiefs
05-13-2014, 10:03 PM
I mean, they could keep Bray if they believe Daniel is eating too much cap. I also think Murray will be put on pup before the season starts, but debating Murray vs. Bray, it's pretty obvious who Reid prefers.

PUP is very possible with Murray seeing that he won't play anyway. But Bray is going to have to give them reason to like him to keep him. So I still think that he's really going to have to show something to stay.

brdempsey69
05-13-2014, 10:32 PM
The bottom line is this: Chiefs drafted Murray; They didn't draft Bray.

The real bottom line is that DOESN'T mean squat. About as significant as saying the Cowboys didn't draft Romo or Manziel. Pointless in either case.

It isn't etched in stone that Murray is going push Bray off the roster. Drafting Murray could wind up being a wasted pick just like Stanzi when it's all said and done.


I would take him in a heartbeat.

You'd take Manning at this stage in his career? Just to watch him pile up big stats in the regular season & then drop a big pile in the back of his shorts in the post-season? If anyone thought you had more brains than that, then it appears everyone knows differently, now.

No thanks, he can stay with his twin Donkey brother Elway in Denver.

Seek
05-14-2014, 08:41 AM
^^The point being missed here is that none of the QB's that the Chiefs have ever drafted looked good going against 2's or 3's in the pre-season and if they DON'T look good going against 2's and 3's, then they don't stand a chance of ever looking good going up against 1's.

Common sense, I would think.

I can agree with that, BUT you have not seen Murray play against any NFL talent to give him a fair judgement vs Bray, and you have not seen enough of Bray to make it a fair comparision. Now I am not saying Murray will be a superstar but if he makes it in the NFL, it will be in this system with Andy Reid. He is not a rocket arm guy but a very accurate smart player. He is suited for a West Coast offense. He will be considered by many a game managing QB.

Seek
05-14-2014, 08:46 AM
The bottom line is this: Chiefs drafted Murray; They didn't draft Bray.

Guys Chase Daniel is paid a lot of money to be a back up. Just as I argued that we have not seen Murray play to think Bray is better than Murray, I have not seen enough from Bray to say he will be pushed out by Murray. Both Murray and Bray may very well push Daniel out, but neither of them have proved anything in actual NFL games while Daniel has.

Basically, I like all Four Qb's and don't want to get rid of any of them specially knowing the #1 guy may not have a contract next year. This whole situation is a interesting story for this pre-season and could end up becoming a draft pick for us Via Trade. It is a good problem to have.

Seek
05-14-2014, 08:49 AM
I mean, they could keep Bray if they believe Daniel is eating too much cap. I also think Murray will be put on pup before the season starts, but debating Murray vs. Bray, it's pretty obvious who Reid prefers.

Oh that is a great point. They could PUP Murray. If that is the case, I like this pick even more as it gives us more options later in the season to evaluate things. He can sit there and soak up everything in the meetings rehab his knee and then evaluate the situation later in the seaon.

Ryfo18
05-14-2014, 12:48 PM
I love how this whole debate is being based off of 1 preseason start against a team who's #1 secondary was one of the worst in the league last year. Should probably chill on the Bray hype for a bit until we see more. He still only completed 53% of his passes last preseason and averaged 5.5ypa.

Ryfo18
05-14-2014, 12:54 PM
You'd take Manning at this stage in his career? Just to watch him pile up big stats in the regular season & then drop a big pile in the back of his shorts in the post-season? If anyone thought you had more brains than that, then it appears everyone knows differently, now.

No thanks, he can stay with his twin Donkey brother Elway in Denver.

It's hard to win Super Bowls, but he puts his team in position every single year. I guess you wouldn't take Brady either then? He hasn't won a Super Bowl in a decade. C'mon man. That's just silly.

I get that he plays for the Broncos. I'd take him in a heartbeat for a 2-year window at winning a Super Bowl.

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 01:06 PM
I love how this whole debate is being based off of 1 preseason start against a team who's #1 secondary was one of the worst in the league last year. Should probably chill on the Bray hype for a bit until we see more. He still only completed 53% of his passes last preseason and averaged 5.5ypa.

Agree 100%

Bray looked good in a preseason game OK great that's awesome. I need to see more before I jump on the Bray Hype bandwagon. He just never has done anything to make me get real excited for him. In college he would make some great throws. But then he would make a throw that made me sit here and think WTF is he thinking. That's a big factor on why he went undrafted. A good preseason outing doesn't make that go away. If he steps it up and looks better this preseason and shows that he is coming along GREAT then they need to keep him. If not he's most likely going to be moved. I think the later is more likely. That's just my thoughts. We will see what happens when it comes time to see him on the field which is getting closer and closer :)

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 01:17 PM
It's hard to win Super Bowls, but he puts his team in position every single year. I guess you wouldn't take Brady either then? He hasn't won a Super Bowl in a decade. C'mon man. That's just silly.

I get that he plays for the Broncos. I'd take him in a heartbeat for a 2-year window at winning a Super Bowl.

I said at THIS STAGE IN HIS CAREER <--- what part of that don't you get? I'd much rather have a Alex Smith who is younger, more mobile, and lately has put in better showings in the post-season. Only fantasy football kiddies would want Manning at this stage.

Manning's lack of mobility was exposed big time on the big stage against a good defense and why anyone would prefer him at this point time over a much more mobile Alex Smith makes no sense.

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 02:12 PM
Getting back on topic of Murray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mJ0EQY3lnc

Every throw Murray made against LSU last year. Put up a lot of points against a good defense LSU was a top 20 defense in NCAA last year. Part of the reason I'm so high on him. He put up a lot of points against some of the best teams in college football. He has a ton of upside

ctchiefsfan
05-14-2014, 02:36 PM
His ability to see the field & throw the football isn't hype. He WAS pushed out of the draft for pretty much the same reasons that the LB Burfict was the year before -- both got into trouble with the authorities and that will get you pushed down to undrafted status. In both cases it had nothing to do with their playing skills.

Bray himself said that getting undrafted was a real eye-opener and he had to eat humble pie. He's been a model citizen since & even recently got engaged. Murray is not going to push him off the roster & he's arriving as damaged goods. I wouldn't be surprised if Murray gets stashed on IR for this year. Letting Bray go this soon would be a horrendous mistake & it's Daniel that should be the first to go, as he has no chance to be a #1 starter.

I had said before that Bray had turned in the best pre-season performance of any Chiefs rookie QB I'd ever seen and that's not hype, that's truth and in the judgement of many, he's earned the right to warrant a further look and be given time to mature.

IMO what is bolded above is exactly so. Both Bray and Murray were picked up because they were seen as high value goods that had been mistakenly put in the bargain basement.

Of course, neither I nor anyone else here has seen much of Bray since he signed with the Chiefs. Could be that Reid has decided that the perceived potential in Bray was all a dream.

But I don't think so. I suspect that Dorsey views Chase Daniel as a "cap casualty" that he may be able to get a late round draft pick for based on his performance against the Chargers. I think that between Murray and Bray Reid figures he has got "the guy" that will eventually replace Alex Smith and "the guy" that will be the other's backup.

I hope so anyway. It would be AMAZING to get our eventual #1 and #2 quarterback for the grand total of 1 late fifth round draft pick.

Of course, dumping Chase Daniel would come with some risk. In the San Diego game he showed he was a pretty decent backup QB. The idea of Alex Smith going down with just Murray and Bray to back him is scarey stuff. But then, with the tough schedule we have this year a lot of the risk is mitigated since it seems like a playoff birth will be tough to get this year.....especially if Smith were to get injured. I like Chase Daniel. He's the ultimate underdog. but I just don't see him as having the potential to lead a team to the playoffs year in and year out. IMO he will always be "a bridesmaid and never a bride". And Reid and Dorsey don't strike me as guys that are looking for a bridesmaid. They seem to want to get a supermodel by discovering her on a farm in Iowa.

All in all, Reid and Dorsey seem to be riverboat gamblers.....but the kind of gamblers that don't drink once money is on the table.

16 months into the Reid-Dorsey regime I am very happy so far.

Ryfo18
05-14-2014, 02:38 PM
I said at THIS STAGE IN HIS CAREER <--- what part of that don't you get? I'd much rather have a Alex Smith who is younger, more mobile, and lately has put in better showings in the post-season. Only fantasy football kiddies would want Manning at this stage.

Manning's lack of mobility was exposed big time on the big stage against a good defense and why anyone would prefer him at this point time over a much more mobile Alex Smith makes no sense.

Ummm, the fact that Manning can get any team to the Super Bowl speaks for itself. I'll gladly take a 2-year Super Bowl window.

That bolded part, lol. That's all I can say.

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 02:51 PM
Ummm, the fact that Manning can get any team to the Super Bowl speaks for itself. I'll gladly take a 2-year Super Bowl window.

That bolded part, lol. That's all I can say.

And I can laugh even harder at back at you, knowing that you are foolish enough to think Manning would get KC to a SB & knowing your perspective is coming from a fantasy football kiddies perspective.

I hope they do sign Alex Smith to a long-term contract of about 5 yrs and about 15 mill a year -- just because of the mindless blind hatred that many like yourself have for him with no just cause, other than he doesn't inflate your fantasy football stat sheets.

Ryfo18
05-14-2014, 03:00 PM
And I can laugh even harder at back at you, knowing that you are foolish enough to think Manning would get KC to a SB & knowing your perspective is coming from a fantasy football kiddies perspective.

I hope they do sign Alex Smith to a long-term contract of about 5 yrs and about 15 mill a year -- just because of the mindless blind hatred that many like yourself have for him with no just cause, other than he doesn't inflate your fantasy football stat sheets.

Alex was actually the 3rd best fantasy QB in the last half of the season last year. But no, I don't base all my opinions on football on just fantasy football, contrary to what you seem to think. Despite your personal attacks at my credibility, Peyton Manning is still the best QB in this league at age 38, and yes, he would absolutely put the Chiefs in position to win a Super Bowl in year 1.

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 03:08 PM
The only reason I wouldn't want Peyton at this point is EGO.

Peyton is famous for not letting the backup get any time with the 1s. And at this stage it really needs to be done. Peyton is 38 years old you need to be grooming the next guy and unless things have changed he just doesn't let that happen. That's the biggest downside I see with Manning

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 03:13 PM
Ont he other side of that Peyton has proven that he can get more out of his WRs then Alex can. He can make WRs better. I don't think that Alex has shown that so there are lots of coaches and gms that would take Manning over Alex even with Manning being 38 years old.

Ryfo18
05-14-2014, 03:13 PM
/waits patiently for the next Alex Smith > Peyton Manning take that's sure enough to burn in the internet down.

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 03:15 PM
Alex was actually the 3rd best fantasy QB in the last half of the season last year. But no, I don't base all my opinions on football on just fantasy football, contrary to what you seem to think. Despite your personal attacks at my credibility, Peyton Manning is still the best QB in this league at age 38, and yes, he would absolutely put the Chiefs in position to win a Super Bowl in year 1.

Do tell us. What could Manning have done in the Indy playoff game to help the Chiefs win that game that Alex didn't do? Answer: NOT A SINGLE THING -- and with that, you don't have much of a leg to stand on regarding your credibility, now do you?

You can keep the forehead. He's is a proven post-season choker and even one of his own fans has said so.

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 03:15 PM
/waits patiently for the next Alex Smith > Peyton Manning take that's sure enough to burn in the internet down.

Tim Tebow>Peyton Manning

Does that burn it down enough for you? :biggrin:

Ryfo18
05-14-2014, 03:21 PM
Do tell us. What could Manning have done in the Indy playoff game to help the Chiefs win that game that Alex didn't do? Answer: NOT A SINGLE THING -- and with that, you don't have much of a leg to stand on regarding your credibility, now do you?

You can keep the forehead. He's is a proven post-season choker and even one of his own fans has said so.

One more touchdown in the second half. A touchdown when the Chiefs got the ball handed to them on IND's 24 yard line late in the 3rd instead of a field goal. A field goal when the Chiefs got the ball back w/ 4 minutes left. Next question.

In order to choke, you have to repeatedly be in a position to do so. Peyton will be back there this year, while the Chiefs struggle to get back into the playoffs and win a playoff game. Mark it down.

Justin5772002
05-14-2014, 03:41 PM
Do tell us. What could Manning have done in the Indy playoff game to help the Chiefs win that game that Alex didn't do? Answer: NOT A SINGLE THING -- and with that, you don't have much of a leg to stand on regarding your credibility, now do you?

You can keep the forehead. He's is a proven post-season choker and even one of his own fans has said so.
who cares what broncos fans say, not me!

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 03:44 PM
One more touchdown in the second half. A touchdown when the Chiefs got the ball handed to them on IND's 24 yard line late in the 3rd instead of a field goal. A field goal when the Chiefs got the ball back w/ 4 minutes left. Next question.

In order to choke, you have to repeatedly be in a position to do so. Peyton will be back there this year, while the Chiefs struggle to get back into the playoffs and win a playoff game. Mark it down.

Right there you shot down your own credibility with your own words. Because everybody knows that the Chiefs lost because of their defensive collapse, not because of Alex Smith. Blaming any QB that helped his team put 44 points on the scoreboard, without mentioning the defensive collapse is a complete copout. And a copout clearly out of blind hatred without just cause & you wonder why your credibility is being shot down by others.

Rest assured, your prediction will be marked down.


who cares what broncos fans say, not me!

Normally I don't care what they say, with exceptions of calling Manning a choker. That simply cannot be ignored.

Ryfo18
05-14-2014, 03:55 PM
Right there you shot down your own credibility with your own words. Because everybody knows that the Chiefs lost because of their defensive collapse, not because of Alex Smith. Blaming any QB that helped his team put 44 points on the scoreboard, without mentioning the defensive collapse is a complete copout. And a copout clearly out of blind hatred without just cause & you wonder why your credibility is being shot down by others.

Listen, you didn't ask what the defense could do to win that game. You asked what Peyton could have done that Alex Smith didn't. I responded with 3 things that he could have done and now my credibility is shot? You're unreal. It was a defensive collapse...one that was aided by the offense being stagnant in the 2nd half.

Just to tear down my credibility even more, Peyton could have also not had 5/7 2nd half drives stall in less than 3 minutes.

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 04:04 PM
Listen, you didn't ask what the defense could do to win that game. You asked what Peyton could have done that Alex Smith didn't. I responded with 3 things that he could have done and now my credibility is shot? You're unreal.

Just to tear down my credibility even more, Peyton could have also not had 5/7 2nd half drives stall in less than 3 minutes.

That's right your credibility is shot. You make it sound like it's etched in stone that Manning would have done those 3 things that you say Smith didn't do, but it's an unknown commodity. No QB should've had to do those 3 things you suggested in the Indy playoff game --bottom line is 44 points should be good enough to win any game and when it's not, in spite of holding a 38-10 lead, then it's clearly a defensive collapse ( 2nd worst in playoff history ) and blaming any QB at that stage is a copout.

Ryfo18
05-14-2014, 04:06 PM
That's right your credibility is shot. You make it sound like it's etched in stone that Manning would have done those 3 things that you say Smith didn't do, but it's an unknown commodity. No QB should've had to do those 3 things you suggested in the Indy playoff game --bottom line is 44 points should be good enough to win any game and when it's not, in spite of holding a 38-10 lead, then it's clearly a defensive collapse ( 2nd worst in playoff history ) and blaming any QB at that stage is a copout.

Neat.

ctchiefsfan
05-14-2014, 05:34 PM
Yeah....well.....I ain't a gonna cast no stones about credibility and the like. I will say this though.......

Peyton F'ing Manning is a useless POS Donkey. Ain't gonna change. He ain't never gonna be a Chief so I hope he rots in hell.

Would we have won that playoff game against the Colts if we had the forehead at Quarterback? Not a damned soul here knows. So it's all like "Opinions and ash-holes".......Everybody has one.

Would Denver have won the Super Bowl if they had Alex Smith at QB? Not a damned soul here knows. So it's all like "Opinions and ash-holes".......Everybody has one.

Yeah....maybe one was more likely than the other, but neither one is ever gonna happen so why in hell are good Chiefs fans yelling at each other about stupid BS that ain't never gonna happen?

Personally, I wish Manning no harm. I don't want to see any NFL player wind up dead or in a wheelchair. But I DO hope that a hit from a Chiefs player convinces Manning that it is time for him to hang up his jersey.

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 05:49 PM
ctchiefsfan,

Alex Smith wasn't Ryfo's personal choice to be the Chiefs QB. My question is why, with what Alex showed us last season along with the fact that Alex has been in the top 3 of NFL's winningest QB's, would anybody want Manning over Smith at this stage. Manning is 8 years older and his age is beginning to show and he's one good hit from being permanently put out to pasture. I could see their argument if both QB's were 25 years old, then that would be different.

Also, the silly notion that Tyler Bray should be discarded just because Murray was drafted. Total nonsense, and it smacks of a similar scenario that we witnessed with Grbac and Gannon in the late 90's. Gannon wasn't given a fair shake and went to the Raiders and we saw how that worked out. My point is this current regime can't make that same type of mistake with Bray and Murray. They've got to go about this with diplomacy and stay patient and give each of these guys time ( 2-3 years ) and let the best man win and prevail. Draft status DOESN'T have jack-s*** to do with that.

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 06:07 PM
Also, the silly notion that Tyler Bray should be discarded just because Murray was drafted. Total nonsense, and it smacks of a similar scenario that we witnessed with Grbac and Gannon in the late 90's. Gannon wasn't given a fair shake and went to the Raiders and we saw how that worked out. My point is this current regime can't make that same type of mistake with Bray and Murray. They've got to go about this with diplomacy and stay patient and give each of these guys time ( 2-3 years ) and let the best man win and prevail. Draft status DOESN'T have jack-s*** to do with that.

I think you misunderstand this here

You're right it would be silly to say Bray is gone just because they drafted Murray but there's more to it then that. At least from my point of view.

1. The fact that they chose to draft Murray in a stronger draft shows they must like him at least as much if not more then Bray since they let him go undrafted taking the chance that someone else would grab him. It is a factor in this but not the end all be all.

2. We are useing that info along with there college careers to project that Murray will push Bray off. You might think that what they did before doesn't matter and in time that's correct but right now it does. It's the only thing that we have to go on with Murray right now since we have not yet reached game 1 in the preseason. Or hell even rookie camp. So what else to we have to base an opinion on? As I've stated I saw both in college and IMO Murray stood out far more then Bray. So I am using that along with the fact that Murray was drafted while Bray went undrafted in a very weak draft class to project that Bray won't be around and that Murray will push him off. It's a prediction. It's not just saying well we drafted Murray Brays gone. Just taking the few things that I have seen and making a guess based on those things.

And while it's true Bray did have some pretty good moments in the preseason last year we can't yet compare the two there. As Murray has yet to get that chance. Who knows maybe Murray comes out in the preseason and looks even better then Bray. Maybe he comes out and falls on his face we just don't know that yet. I'm just basing my thoughts on what I can compare them in and that's there college careers

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 06:31 PM
^^RUBBISH !! I have not misunderstood anything. Suggesting that Bray will be discarded right away -- and yes that is precisely what has been suggested with the statements along the lines of "he won't be there week 1" -- is ridiculous and isn't the same as what I suggested about letting them compete for a couple for a couple or three years, not by a longshot.

doobs_05
05-14-2014, 06:34 PM
That's right your credibility is shot. You make it sound like it's etched in stone that Manning would have done those 3 things that you say Smith didn't do, but it's an unknown commodity. No QB should've had to do those 3 things you suggested in the Indy playoff game --bottom line is 44 points should be good enough to win any game and when it's not, in spite of holding a 38-10 lead, then it's clearly a defensive collapse ( 2nd worst in playoff history ) and blaming any QB at that stage is a copout.

not blaming the QB, but 10 points in what, 29 minutes when in the previous 31 they scored 31 seems bad.

I've always said, the defense deserves most of the blame but the offense should not get off scott free for their lack of scoring in the last 29 minutes of the game.

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 06:42 PM
not blaming the QB, but 10 points in what, 29 minutes when in the previous 31 they scored 31 seems bad.

I've always said, the defense deserves most of the blame but the offense should not get off scott free for their lack of scoring in the last 29 minutes of the game.

No Charles, Davis, or Avery down the stretch of that game certainly doesn't help the cause of the Offense, now does it?

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 06:59 PM
^^RUBBISH !! I have not misunderstood anything. Suggesting that Bray will be discarded right away -- and yes that is precisely what has been suggested with the statements along the lines of "he won't be there week 1" -- is ridiculous and isn't the same as what I suggested about letting them compete for a couple for a couple or three years, not by a longshot.

What's being said is that Murray will EARN the job over Bray. It's not them saying to Bray to just hit the road. There's a difference. It's not as simple as them saying to Bray well we drafted Murray so bye bye like you said. It's Murray in camp and the preseason earning the job. Which is what the predicition that I have made is. This saying that Bray should get an auto spot on the roster for 3 years based on a single preseason outing against the backups is silly. I've seen nothing from Bray that says he should get that shot for 3 years. IF he shows he can keep stepping it up I've said many time he should stay. But I just don't think that's going to happen based on what I saw in his college career. Bray is not any different then any other undrafted player they have to earn there spot on the rosters

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 07:25 PM
What's being said is that Murray will EARN the job over Bray. It's not them saying to Bray to just hit the road. There's a difference. It's not as simple as them saying to Bray well we drafted Murray so bye bye like you said. It's Murray in camp and the preseason earning the job. Which is what the predicition that I have made is. This saying that Bray should get an auto spot on the roster for 3 years based on a single preseason outing against the backups is silly. I've seen nothing from Bray that says he should get that shot for 3 years. IF he shows he can keep stepping it up I've said many time he should stay. But I just don't think that's going to happen based on what I saw in his college career. Bray is not any different then any other undrafted player they have to earn there spot on the rosters

And saying that Murray will -- like it's etched in stone -- earn the job over Bray is complete BS. Murray hasn't signed his contract and even put on a uniform as of yet. Murray might suffer a permanent thumb injury from playing tiddly-winks before he ever throws a pass for the Chiefs, for all anyone knows.

Saying that one hopes that Murray beats out Bray is another thing altogether ( which I'm not betting on that ).

ctchiefsfan
05-14-2014, 07:48 PM
ctchiefsfan,

Alex Smith wasn't Ryfo's personal choice to be the Chiefs QB. My question is why, with what Alex showed us last season along with the fact that Alex has been in the top 3 of NFL's winningest QB's, would anybody want Manning over Smith at this stage. Manning is 8 years older and his age is beginning to show and he's one good hit from being permanently put out to pasture. I could see their argument if both QB's were 25 years old, then that would be different.

Despite the fact that a friend (who is also a 9'ers fans) on a firearms-related board told me long before the trade that the 9'ers were going to let Smith go and that we should grab him, I was still a bit taken aback. As I have said before.....I used to be an NFL fan....now I'm simply a Chiefs fan.

I LIKE Alex Smith. He may turn out to be a truly amazing QB. I honestly think he might. But then there are the contract "issues" and that is a whole different subject.

Would I trade Alex for Manning straight up? NEVER IN HELL! Age is age and I am starting to succumb to it. I can't run the hills hunting deer like I used to.

That said, I AM getting nervous that we can't seem to lock Alex Smith in for the next 3-5 years. Maybe Bray.....maybe Murray....but without a doubt Alex Smith is a very good QB. MAYBE the QB that can take us to the Super Bowl and IMO certainly the QB that can break the playoff curse.

But without a doubt, the only way I would rather have Manning over Alex Smith is if Manning came with a whole bunch of draft picks. Manning is yesterday's news. Maybe he wins a Super Bowl for the donks. Maybe the NFL GIVES Manning, Elway and the donks a Superbowl. But I would rather have Alex Smith.




Also, the silly notion that Tyler Bray should be discarded just because Murray was drafted.Total nonsense

I'm inclined to agree....as I said in my post above. Wish Reid had started Bray in that game against San Diego last year though. It was a "meaningless game" so why didn't we start our supposed QBOTF? Worries me. But I am totally OK going with Smith/Bray/Murray (in no particular order) if that is where Reid thinks the future is. I just have a very hard time seeing Chase Daniel winning us a playoff game more to the point a Super Bowl....so I am totally on board with cutting him loose if that is what Reid thinks is best.

Eydugstr
05-14-2014, 07:55 PM
While I'm not jumping up and down over the pick of a QB this year...Still weighing the pros/cons of that one over trying to get a WR in that round...The bottom line is KC has him. So what next?

My hope would be that Murray and Bray are battling it out in training camp. But that won't be for awhile because of Murray's ACL. Another downside. Dorsey & Reid had to have known this, and drafted him anyway. They saw the value, right or wrong.

I'm sorry m/c but I don't get the argument of "drafting beats UDFA signing". Not sure how one shows more "love" than the other. It's not like we're talking about a first round pick. It's a fifth.

My hope is this, since we got them...I'd like to see both of these guys working their tails off to be the better QB for KC. Unfortunately for us, it'll be awhile before we'll get to see a true competition happen between Bray and Murray because of Murray's ACL. So this preseason we'll see Daniels and Bray battling for the #2 spot. I am pulling for Bray because Bray has an incredible arm, we just need to see it put to more use while he's wearing red and gold. Daniels will be battling to make a statement to other teams that he's worth the money. The end result being that Chiefs have better QB depth.

So for this year, because of Murray's ACL, nothing's really changed. The competition for #2 is still between Daniels and Bray.

ctchiefsfan
05-14-2014, 08:10 PM
Damn fine post! I hope Murray recovers enough to be a serious part of the competition this year, but if not he is well worth stashing somewhere. Not to be a broken record, but it's good to see Dorsey thinking about the future. I think Dorsey is going to build one hell of a good team. May take a few years though.

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 08:17 PM
And saying that Murray will -- like it's etched in stone -- earn the job over Bray is complete BS. Murray hasn't signed his contract and even put on a uniform as of yet. Murray might suffer a permanent thumb injury from playing tiddly-winks before he ever throws a pass for the Chiefs, for all anyone knows.

Saying that one hopes that Murray beats out Bray is another thing altogether ( which I'm not betting on that ).

Come on it's pretty well known that eveyone on here is just giving there opinion on things. It's not like Dorsey or Reid are sitting there reading this and making choices based on that. I highly doubt Reid would be sitting there debating his roster and say I wonder what matt on chiefscrowd says.

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 08:20 PM
I don't think the ACL is going to be much of a factor he's coming along very well in his recovery and was moving around fine at his pro day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1MuKWEhVas#t=16

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 08:42 PM
Come on it's pretty well known that eveyone on here is just giving there opinion on things. It's not like Dorsey or Reid are sitting there reading this and making choices based on that. I highly doubt Reid would be sitting there debating his roster and say I wonder what matt on chiefscrowd says.

Still, that opinion is illogical. Specifically, the ones that think that draft status matters or Murray is already a better QBOTF prospect than Bray is because of etc., etc. It's what they do in KC that counts now, not what they did before they arrived.

This, by Eydugstr, on the the other hand, makes much more sense and it's the more likely scenario and the best case scenario.



My hope is this, since we got them...I'd like to see both of these guys working their tails off to be the better QB for KC

And yes, I've seen that vid of Murray's pro day, but that doesn't mean he'll hold up for very long on the field if he gets hit several times. In fact Murray's injury didn't come as the result of being hit.

matthewschiefs
05-14-2014, 10:35 PM
Still, that opinion is illogical. Specifically, the ones that think that draft status matters or Murray is already a better QBOTF prospect than Bray is because of etc., etc. It's what they do in KC that counts now, not what they did before they arrived.

What's illogical about the opinion if Bray gets outplayed then he loses his job and will be off the team? That's what happens between July and the first of September. It's the nature of the NFL.

What's illogical is the thought they have to give Bray 3 years. Sorry but where they came from does matter. A 1st rounder sure you have to give him those years. But you clearly saw something in him to take him in the 1st round. An undrafted guy you don't have to give that time and it's silly to do if you don't see anything out of him that says he can be the guy. You clearly didn't see enough in him to draft him.





And yes, I've seen that vid of Murray's pro day, but that doesn't mean he'll hold up for very long on the field if he gets hit several times. In fact Murray's injury didn't come as the result of being hit.

Ummm it didn't?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73HAqSd5uiw
what caused it?

brdempsey69
05-14-2014, 11:21 PM
What's illogical about the opinion if Bray gets outplayed then he loses his job and will be off the team? That's what happens between July and the first of September. It's the nature of the NFL.

What's illogical is the thought they have to give Bray 3 years. Sorry but where they came from does matter. A 1st rounder sure you have to give him those years. But you clearly saw something in him to take him in the 1st round. An undrafted guy you don't have to give that time and it's silly to do if you don't see anything out of him that says he can be the guy. You clearly didn't see enough in him to draft him.



It was the off-the-field incidents that caused Bray to go undrafted, same as the LB Burfict the year before. Had nothing to do with their potential as players. Same thing with South Carolina CB Victor Hampton this year, who had a 3rd or 4th round grade, but went undrafted because of off the field issues which you can read about right HERE (http://walterfootball.com/wu2014vhampton.php).

Draft status has nothing to do with whether or not Bray or Murray should be given 2-3 years to see what they really got. And what is illogical is thinking that Murray is going to outplay Bray right away. Bray already has a year in the system & one training camp under his belt, so the odds are stacked against it.





Ummm it didn't?

what caused it?

That video ISN'T the play where Murray injured his ACL. It occurred on a scramble by Murray prior to that play. It's right here at about 0:30 of this vid where his ACL got hurt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCiVcz0KHZc&feature=youtu.be

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 12:22 AM
It was the off-the-field incidents that caused Bray to go undrafted, same as the LB Burfict the year before. Had nothing to do with their potential as players. Same thing with South Carolina CB Victor Hampton this year, who had a 3rd or 4th round grade, but went undrafted because of off the field issues which you can read about right HERE (http://walterfootball.com/wu2014vhampton.php).

You continue to ignore the fact that off the field issues are not the sole cause of people going undrafted. There have been lots of guys who have had off the field issues and still get drafted. THERE'S MORE TO IT. If a team sees enough in a guy they will draft him even with off the field issues they will just do it in the later rounds. They didn't see enough in Bray to do so. There's a chance that if not for the off the field issues that he would have been drafted I grant you. But those issues are not the only reason he went undrafted.


Draft status has nothing to do with whether or not Bray or Murray should be given 2-3 years to see what they really got.

This is just incorrect. Where a guy is drafted or not drafted has a BIG impact on how long a player gets to prove their worth. 1st rounders know they are going to be on the team at the start of the year they know they have a spot. 7th rounders don't some get cut or they get put on the PS. It's how the NFL works. Undrafted guys just don't get 3 years it just doesn't happen. They have to really show something to make the team. Which is what I said Bray will have to do to make the team.


And what is illogical is thinking that Murray is going to outplay Bray right away. Bray already has a year in the system & one training camp under his belt, so the odds are stacked against it.

In a simple world this is correct. But it's not that simple. Qbs are not the same. They grow at different rates. They start out a different levels. IMO Murray is the better QB. He's starting at a higher level then Bray started IMO so it's logical to think he's going to pass Bray IMO.



That video ISN'T the play where Murray injured his ACL. It occurred on a scramble by Murray prior to that play. It's right here at about 0:30 of this vid where his ACL got hurt.

I stand corrected on this one. I was watching the game and didn't know he tore it on the scramble. He came back and threw a td after it so that to me says something about his toughness. and the fact that he was already given the clear and unlimted in his pro day I think speaks well of how he is coming around.

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 12:33 AM
http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013tbray.php

Bray's scouting report

Notice there is accuracy and Decision-making issues. As Ryfo said Qbs in college who complete under 60% of there passes don't have a great trac record in the NFL. Bray was at 58.6% in college. That all played into him going undrafted It wasn't only the off the field stuff.

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 12:37 AM
http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2014amurray.php

And Murray's scouting report shorter list of weakness and Murray has accuracy as a strenght

texaschief
05-15-2014, 12:44 AM
This entire discussion is irrelevant. Daniel will be cast aside to provide some cap flexibility so the Chiefs can address another need. In fact, I'd call up Houston and dangle him as trade bait. You can't tell me Daniel wouldn't at least contend for the starting spot against Keenum and Fitzpatrick.

brdempsey69
05-15-2014, 12:45 AM
http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013tbray.php

Bray's scouting report

Notice there is accuracy and Decision-making issues. As Ryfo said Qbs in college who complete under 60% of there passes don't have a great trac record in the NFL. Bray was at 58.6% in college. That all played into him going undrafted It wasn't only the off the field stuff.

Like I said before -- it's what happens in KC that counts now. And there's an old saying -- stats are for losers. What Ryfo posted there doesn't guarantee squat.

Did a college career completion percentage of 52.0 keep this guy (http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/joe-montana-1.html) from having success in the NFL? Not even close. Therefore there really is nothing stopping Bray from having success in the NFL if he matures and improves his overall game, except maybe Bray himself.


This entire discussion is irrelevant. Daniel will be cast aside to provide some cap flexibility so the Chiefs can address another need. In fact, I'd call up Houston and dangle him as trade bait. You can't tell me Daniel wouldn't at least contend for the starting spot against Keenum and Fitzpatrick.

Who knows? It could have been the sole reason behind drafting Murray. Or there's a chance Murray gets stashed on IR this year. Time will tell.

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 01:03 AM
Well I'm not going to drag this on any further but I stand by my thoughts unless Bray really shows something in camp and preseason I don't see him being on the opening day roster. I just don't see it. I don't see him pushing Daniel off the team. But time will tell. I could be wrong but at this point I just don't think Bray is going to be around unless he's on the pratice squad be we will see

texaschief
05-15-2014, 02:49 AM
We are hardly the only ones thinking Bray could be the best QB on the Chiefs roster. The links below are just a few I found real quick on the subject. You're being completely dismissive about Bray because you are so biased in your opinion about Murray. I like Murray. I liked him last year. Hell, if he were in the draft last year, I think he would've been the first QB off the board. But you need to take a breath. I don't care which QB is better. As long as they are the right QB for Reid, his system, and the Chiefs as a whole, I'm on board. However, looking at these two prospects right now, I think Bray will have the better career if he can get his head right. Murray could have a good career too... as long as he stays healthy. Both have question marks and it's ridiculous to write off a guy who has a prototype skill set just because he went undrafted due to off the field issues.

If the Chiefs were already floating the idea of putting Bray at the #2 spot, all he has to do is stay close to Daniel during OTAs and camp. If Bray does that, he'll be the #2 and Daniel will be out of a job.



http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kansas-city-chiefs-tyler-bray-pushing-chase-daniel-164700138--nfl.html (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kansas-city-chiefs-tyler-bray-pushing-chase-daniel-164700138--nfl.html)

http://allfortennessee.com/2014/02/16/tyler-bray-to-compete-for-chiefs-backup-quarterback-job/

Teicher: Going to be interesting to see how the backup quarterback situation resolves itself. It's in the Chiefs' best interest to make that an open competition between Chase Daniel (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/12471/chase-daniel) and Tyler Bray (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/31219/tyler-bray) and go with the one they think is best. Bray has a ton of skill. He probably has more ability to make all the necessary throws than either Alex Smith (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/8416/alex-smith) or Daniel. But Daniel has a lot of intangibles, not to mention the experience of having prepared himself week after week for several years now to be ready to play at a moment's notice. If Bray would win that competition, the Chiefs would have an interesting decision on what to do with Daniel. They could save $1.4 million against their cap by releasing him. Unless they're desperate at that point for the cap space, they should keep him around.

http://kan.scout.com/2/1360082.html

Eydugstr
05-15-2014, 08:24 AM
This entire discussion is irrelevant. Daniel will be cast aside to provide some cap flexibility so the Chiefs can address another need. In fact, I'd call up Houston and dangle him as trade bait. You can't tell me Daniel wouldn't at least contend for the starting spot against Keenum and Fitzpatrick.

THIS. And yes Daniels would be an upgrade over what the Texans have now. But it would be cruel and unusual punishment for any former Chief to have to go stand by Coach Crennel.

brdempsey69
05-15-2014, 11:00 AM
Hey, I have nothing against Murray. I hope he does become a quality QB. But dismissing Bray this early because Murray was drafted is a mistake. It's too early to that.

Seek
05-15-2014, 11:27 AM
Hey, I have nothing against Murray. I hope he does become a quality QB. But dismissing Bray this early because Murray was drafted is a mistake. It's too early to that.

I completely agree with this. I really think Daniel is the one who should be most concerned.

brdempsey69
05-15-2014, 12:04 PM
I completely agree with this. I really think Daniel is the one who should be most concerned.

Thank you. How long has it been since we've had this discussion regarding two young QBOTF prospects competing on the KC Chiefs? I believe it's been forever or at least since Bill Kenney and Steve Fuller were on the roster circa 1980. Not a bad thing at all.

ctchiefsfan
05-15-2014, 01:21 PM
Two young QBs competing for a job on the Chiefs is a very good thing! What really impresses me is that these two young quarterbacks were both once considered to be really HOT prospects and yet all we gave up in order to get BOTH OF THEM was a 5th round pick. It remains to be seen if either of them will ever grow into being the #1 QB for our Chiefs, but I think this is a great example of how good Dorsey is at finding potential gems in the Discount Meat Rack.

What Dorsey does with the draft and UDFAs is sort of like looking for Gold. Any fool can go looking for Gold and find some if he goes to an established gold mine. But then, how many people will let you look in their established Gold mine? And any fool can go panning for gold in any stream out west and maybe he will find some gold. But chances are he will starve to death rather than strike it rich. If you want to strike it rich searching for Gold you'd best know a fair bit about geology so that the places you look are the kind of places that are MOST LIKELY to have Gold. It seems to me that Dorsey has shown he has a pretty good grasp of geology.

He's been looking in some pretty good places. And he has certainly found some "color". Now we have to wait and see if he has struck it rich or just found "fools gold". I'm betting that some of these players he has found on the Discount Meat Rack will turn out to be gold nuggets.

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 02:50 PM
It's amazing how people see a QB differently I've never heard that Bray was a good prospect before. Is there some upside to him sure. But he has to show that to me more then against other teams 3s before i start to buy into it

But it's funny and great how people see him differently and has led to a good debate in the offseason Time will tell on Bray I just need some convincing before I get to excited for him. And I really don't see him pushing Daniel off the roster.

Ryfo18
05-15-2014, 02:54 PM
Let's be honest...they'll probably both end up sucking. The Chiefs can't have nice things at QB.

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 02:57 PM
Let's be honest...they'll probably both end up sucking. The Chiefs can't have nice things at QB.

Sad but true

Trent Green and Alex Smith are about as nice as I've ever seen. But I will say if I see the Alex that ended the year all next season I won't be to upset with that. And that could also make the debate a moot point

brdempsey69
05-15-2014, 03:00 PM
Let's be honest...they'll probably both end up sucking. The Chiefs can't have nice things at QB.

If that happens, then the finger can pointed at Reid and the coaches. It's not as though Murray and Bray don't have talent and potential -- they both bring more of that to the table than guys like Cassel, Palko or Croyle. If that happens, then it's a failure on the part of the Chiefs coaches. They have the nice pieces of Clay & now they need to mold it correctly.

ctchiefsfan
05-15-2014, 03:34 PM
It's amazing how people see a QB differently I've never heard that Bray was a good prospect before. Is there some upside to him sure. But he has to show that to me more then against other teams 3s before i start to buy into it.

I'm not claiming to know a lot about Bray. As I've said, I don't follow college ball so naturally I can't claim to know a lot about him. But what I have read here and elsewhere is that he was a real hotshot in college and was expected at one time to go pretty high in the draft but he then showed some immaturity and some off-field "issues" and declared a year early as it looked like his college career was screwed. Anyway, that is my understanding. But I don't know everything. Especially about college ball. So I could be all wrong on this. Can anyone confirm or deny my understanding of the situation with Bray and his college career?


But it's funny and great how people see him differently and has led to a good debate in the offseason Time will tell on Bray I just need some convincing before I get to excited for him. And I really don't see him pushing Daniel off the roster.

My thought is not so much that Bray is going to "push Daniel off the roster". I certainly haven't seen enough of Bray to say that I think he is a better #2 quarterback than Daniel. What I do think is this.........

1) We have "Salary Cap Issues".

2) This looks like a tough season coming up. I'm not a betting man, but if forced to bet I would bet that we don't make the playoffs this year.

3) Alex Smith has proved himself a pretty durable quarterback. Both in KC and SF.

4) Reid believes that in Bray and Murray he has at the VERY LEAST the eventual #2 quarterback. *MAYBE* the eventual replacement for Smith.

5) In order to make some cap space Reid and Dorsey may be willing to take the gamble of trading or cutting Daniel and going with a #2 QB who is *maybe* not as ready to step in as Daniel is.

6) This would be a GAMBLE. But Reid and Dorsey strike me as gamblers who weight the odds carefully and then decide if a gamble is worth taking. With this looking like a tough year what with having lost a bunch of free agents and the tough schedule, Reid and Dorsey may be willing to take the risk of going with a questionable #2 quarterback to either get a draft pick for Daniel or just to free up some cap space by cutting him.

7) I think it is even possible that Reid and Dorsey decided to start Daniel against the Chargers last year in the hopes that he would have a great game and thereby perhaps make him interesting as trade bait. If we wind up trading Daniel for a decent draft pick for 2015 then the risk of going with Bray as #2 would start to look like a very acceptable risk. The salary cap has made the job of being a GM into a job where "risk management" is a VERY IMPORTANT part of the job.

Just my thoughts on the quarterback situation.

ctchiefsfan
05-15-2014, 03:36 PM
Let's be honest...they'll probably both end up sucking. The Chiefs can't have nice things at QB.

Fair enough. But all jinx's and curses end sooner or later. Between Bray and Murray we *may* have the tools to break the Chiefs Quarterback curse.

ctchiefsfan
05-15-2014, 03:41 PM
Sad but true

But I will say if I see the Alex that ended the year all next season I won't be to upset with that. And that could also make the debate a moot point


If that happens, then the finger can pointed at Reid and the coaches. It's not as though Murray and Bray don't have talent and potential -- they both bring more of that to the table than guys like Cassel, Palko or Croyle. If that happens, then it's a failure on the part of the Chiefs coaches. They have the nice pieces of Clay & now they need to mold it correctly.

Both statement are 100% EXACTLY SO.

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 04:22 PM
'm not claiming to know a lot about Bray. As I've said, I don't follow college ball so naturally I can't claim to know a lot about him. But what I have read here and elsewhere is that he was a real hotshot in college and was expected at one time to go pretty high in the draft but he then showed some immaturity and some off-field "issues" and declared a year early as it looked like his college career was screwed. Anyway, that is my understanding. But I don't know everything. Especially about college ball. So I could be all wrong on this. Can anyone confirm or deny my understanding of the situation with Bray and his college career?

See I do watch a lot of College football And I saw Bray play a lot. This is what I said last year about Bray when we signed him.


I get a lot of SEC football and mostly I agree he just does things that make you think WTF is he doing. But if Reid could pull of a miracle with him he could have some hope. The chances of that are like .1% but not much risk taking him post draft

I've just never been high on and don't get excited about a preseason outing. I can understand why people do see an upside in him But I just don't see it being as good.




My thought is not so much that Bray is going to "push Daniel off the roster". I certainly haven't seen enough of Bray to say that I think he is a better #2 quarterback than Daniel. What I do think is this.........

1) We have "Salary Cap Issues".

2) This looks like a tough season coming up. I'm not a betting man, but if forced to bet I would bet that we don't make the playoffs this year.

3) Alex Smith has proved himself a pretty durable quarterback. Both in KC and SF.

4) Reid believes that in Bray and Murray he has at the VERY LEAST the eventual #2 quarterback. *MAYBE* the eventual replacement for Smith.

5) In order to make some cap space Reid and Dorsey may be willing to take the gamble of trading or cutting Daniel and going with a #2 QB who is *maybe* not as ready to step in as Daniel is.

6) This would be a GAMBLE. But Reid and Dorsey strike me as gamblers who weight the odds carefully and then decide if a gamble is worth taking. With this looking like a tough year what with having lost a bunch of free agents and the tough schedule, Reid and Dorsey may be willing to take the risk of going with a questionable #2 quarterback to either get a draft pick for Daniel or just to free up some cap space by cutting him.

7) I think it is even possible that Reid and Dorsey decided to start Daniel against the Chargers last year in the hopes that he would have a great game and thereby perhaps make him interesting as trade bait. If we wind up trading Daniel for a decent draft pick for 2015 then the risk of going with Bray as #2 would start to look like a very acceptable risk. The salary cap has made the job of being a GM into a job where "risk management" is a VERY IMPORTANT part of the job.

Just my thoughts on the quarterback situation.

IMO the cap isn't going to have anything to do with what they do at the QB spot. Teams create cap room before free agency they don't do it right before the season. There just isn't much use to it because at this point the impact players for the most part have been signed. So I don't think the cap is going to have anything to do with the choice they make at the backup QB spot.

That given the tough schedule I think Reid is going to go with the guy he sees as the best option. No matter of who that is. He's going to chose who gives us the best chance to win that's his job.

jap1
05-15-2014, 05:19 PM
IMO the cap isn't going to have anything to do with what they do at the QB spot. Teams create cap room before free agency they don't do it right before the season. There just isn't much use to it because at this point the impact players for the most part have been signed. So I don't think the cap is going to have anything to do with the choice they make at the backup QB spot.

That given the tough schedule I think Reid is going to go with the guy he sees as the best option. No matter of who that is. He's going to chose who gives us the best chance to win that's his job.

It may help with extending Smith and/or Houston's contracts. They are both going to be earning more money on their next contract, and thus be bigger cap hits. It may help to fit those contracts in if we free up Daniels full 3mil. But I will agree that cutting Daniels would do little for the cap. 1.4 million isnt going to help much at this point in the offseason.

ctchiefsfan
05-15-2014, 05:27 PM
See I do watch a lot of College football And I saw Bray play a lot. This is what I said last year about Bray when we signed him.



Fair enough. You base your opinion on Bray on what you saw of him playing college ball so that certainly trumps my opinion based purely on what I have read on the net. I can't argue as your opinion is based on what you've seen and mine is based on what I have read on the net. And we all know about stuff we read on the net.

As to.....


That given the tough schedule I think Reid is going to go with the guy he sees as the best option. No matter of who that is. He's going to chose who gives us the best chance to win that's his job.

I don't entirely agree with you. IMO the Head Coach's job is to work with the GM to determine what is best for the team as far as roster is concerned both in the short term AND ALSO in the long term. Once the final cuts have been made then yes, the Head Coach's job is to achieve the best possible results from that roster. And IMO you sometimes need to make small sacrifices in the short term to achieve the best results in the long term. Even if Bray is not as good as Daniel, it might be best in the long term if Daniel went away and Bray (or Murray) was the #2 this year. Maybe it is an acceptable risk this year. I'm not saying that is the case. I'm saying it might be an acceptable risk for the long term future of the Chiefs. Risk management. Might be an acceptable risk given how durable Alex Smith has been.

IMO a team is best served when the Head Coach and the GM have a great deal of mutual respect for each other's abilities and talents and discuss all decisions and actually pay attention to what the other says rather than the Pioli model of King and servants.

I think we have that in Reid-Dorsey. If Dorsey says...."Andy, Can you get by with Bray or Murray as #2, I need to dump Daniel as #2 to make some cap room." Then I think Reid would listen closely and give the thought serious consideration........even if he thought Daniel was the best possible #2 THIS YEAR. The potential reward might be worth the risk.....if Alex Smith stayed healthy. Backups is where you can afford to take risks.

The primary job of Reid and Dorsey is to get our Chiefs a playoff win and hopefully, eventually a Super Bowl win. And sometimes it is acceptable to take some risks if you think that risk will pay off....maybe not this year but next year or the year after.

But that is just the way my brain works.....and that don't necessarily mean I'm right.

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 05:46 PM
Fair enough. You base your opinion on Bray on what you saw of him playing college ball so that certainly trumps my opinion based purely on what I have read on the net. I can't argue as your opinion is based on what you've seen and mine is based on what I have read on the net. And we all know about stuff we read on the net.

I will admit i've been very wrong before and i could be wrong here. The truth is we just haven't seen all that much of Bray in the pros. So all I can do is go by what I have seen. I've said that if he steps up and shows something then there's a spot on the team for him for sure. But he's going to have to step it up and give them reason to put him on the team. That's just life for an undrafted player. He could very well do it. I just don't think he will.





I don't entirely agree with you. IMO the Head Coach's job is to work with the GM to determine what is best for the team as far as roster is concerned both in the short term AND ALSO in the long term. Once the final cuts have been made then yes, the Head Coach's job is to achieve the best possible results from that roster. And IMO you sometimes need to make small sacrifices in the short term to achieve the best results in the long term. Even if Bray is not as good as Daniel, it might be best in the long term if Daniel went away and Bray (or Murray) was the #2 this year. Maybe it is an acceptable risk this year. I'm not saying that is the case. I'm saying it might be an acceptable risk for the long term future of the Chiefs. Risk management. Might be an acceptable risk given how durable Alex Smith has been.

IMO a team is best served when the Head Coach and the GM have a great deal of mutual respect for each other's abilities and talents and discuss all decisions and actually pay attention to what the other says rather than the Pioli model of King and servants.

I think we have that in Reid-Dorsey. If Dorsey says...."Andy, Can you get by with Bray or Murray as #2, I need to dump Daniel as #2 to make some cap room." Then I think Reid would listen closely and give the thought serious consideration........even if he thought Daniel was the best possible #2 THIS YEAR. The potential reward might be worth the risk.....if Alex Smith stayed healthy. Backups is where you can afford to take risks.

The primary job of Reid and Dorsey is to get our Chiefs a playoff win and hopefully, eventually a Super Bowl win. And sometimes it is acceptable to take some risks if you think that risk will pay off....maybe not this year but next year or the year after.

But that is just the way my brain works.....and that don't necessarily mean I'm right.

I don't see why cap room would be a big deal right now enough to do that. The time that teams make cap room has passed. Unless someone they really want ends up cut then I could see that but I just don't think the cap thing will come into play at this point for this up coming season. After the season I can see it very well happening. That's why I think at the very least they would try to get Bray on the PS. But just going on what I've seen so far I think Daniel is going to go into the season as the number 2. But I wouldn't be shocked at all if this is his last season in KC

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 05:47 PM
It may help with extending Smith and/or Houston's contracts. They are both going to be earning more money on their next contract, and thus be bigger cap hits. It may help to fit those contracts in if we free up Daniels full 3mil. But I will agree that cutting Daniels would do little for the cap. 1.4 million isnt going to help much at this point in the offseason.

True

But I see those being things that get done after the season rather then before hand.

doobs_05
05-15-2014, 06:29 PM
No Charles, Davis, or Avery down the stretch of that game certainly doesn't help the cause of the Offense, now does it?

Team did fine without charles, and defense had injuries....

ctchiefsfan
05-15-2014, 06:46 PM
Let's be honest. The reason we lost that game was because of all the injuries. We lost important players during that game on both sides of the ball.

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 06:49 PM
Team did fine without charles, and defense had injuries....

They did fine without Charles but I think the point was they lost not only him but then there 2nd rb and one of there few WRs that could do something. Those things build up

And without going back into the rant about the defense they were already well on their way to blowing it before the injuries on the defensive end started but now on to happier times

brdempsey69
05-15-2014, 06:52 PM
Team did fine without charles, and defense had injuries....

That doesn't make Alex Smith a scapegoat for the Indy playoff loss, like some would make him out to be. He played far above anyone's expectations.

ctchiefsfan
05-15-2014, 09:01 PM
They did fine without Charles but I think the point was they lost not only him but then there 2nd rb and one of there few WRs that could do something. Those things build up

Absolute fact.


And without going back into the rant about the defense they were already well on their way to blowing it before the injuries on the defensive end started but now on to happier times

Not entirely sure of the intent of this part, but being honest, losing a 28 point lead in the 2cond half is a team effort. The Defense allowed WAY too many points and the Offense failed to make that one extra score that would have saved the day.

Injuries played a HUGE role in that loss. But if I had to lay blame for that loss I would place it more on the Defense than on the Offense. I'm not sure how anyone could really disagree.

And yes....let's not talk about that game any more. It's in the past. We've stuck a fork in it. There is no benefit for us as Chiefs fans in picking that scab any more.


That doesn't make Alex Smith a scapegoat for the Indy playoff loss, like some would make him out to be. He played far above anyone's expectations.

DAMNED RIGHT!!!!! Only a moron like MMO/MMH could blame Alex Smith for that loss. Alex Smith played his heart out and did a fine job despite the loss of weapons that would have made many QBs give up.

But like I said, let's not replay that game. We can't change the outcome so we need to treat that game like that REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hot chick that dumped most if not all of us at one point or another. Put it away and while we will never forget it, it does no good to bring it up anymore.

matthewschiefs
05-15-2014, 09:57 PM
Not entirely sure of the intent of this part, but being honest, losing a 28 point lead in the 2cond half is a team effort. The Defense allowed WAY too many points and the Offense failed to make that one extra score that would have saved the day.

Injuries played a HUGE role in that loss. But if I had to lay blame for that loss I would place it more on the Defense than on the Offense. I'm not sure how anyone could really disagree.

And yes....let's not talk about that game any more. It's in the past. We've stuck a fork in it. There is no benefit for us as Chiefs fans in picking that scab any more.

Without again going into full rant the part about the defense and why I don't give them as much as an injury excuse is this wasn't a one half thing. I have sat year for years and seen excuse after excuse made for the defense like they were worn out even when they were off the field more then on. It's just the MO of this defense that the tougher the game the smaller they come up.

But I'm hoping that will change and now that sutton has seen it up close with his own eyes he can make the needed changes. It's why I'm not one to call for Sutton's head. This was a problem before he got to KC. I can't blame him for that. But I can expect him to have taken the offseason to FIX IT. Heres hoping he got the job done. It would really help keep my blood pressure down :lol:

ctchiefsfan
05-15-2014, 10:33 PM
Yup!!!! Good post. Sutton will have his work cut out for him this year. And it will be hard work. But y'know, for a good while now the problem with our Chiefs Defense hasn't been right scheme/wrong scheme or right players/wrong players....NO! it's been QUITTING. Sutton thought he had that all fixed. And we all know what happened then. Sutton will fix the MENTALITY on the Defensive side of the ball. Teams that have a Defense that simply WON'T QUIT don't lose all that often.

I fully expect that Reid and Sutton have had some SERIOUS conversations on that very subject.

Eydugstr
05-16-2014, 07:52 AM
Fair enough. But all jinx's and curses end sooner or later. Between Bray and Murray we *may* have the tools to break the Chiefs Quarterback curse.

Agreed. KC finally has a HC that has a history of generating sought-after free agent QB's. He's got to prove it while wearing the red hat with the arrowhead, but Reid's background is much different than a majority of the head coaches we've had before in the QB department.

Eydugstr
05-16-2014, 07:56 AM
If that happens, then the finger can pointed at Reid and the coaches. It's not as though Murray and Bray don't have talent and potential -- they both bring more of that to the table than guys like Cassel, Palko or Croyle. If that happens, then it's a failure on the part of the Chiefs coaches. They have the nice pieces of Clay & now they need to mold it correctly.

Re-quoted for truth. Sometimes it takes seeing it in print to stop and consider the level of talent dropoff. Reid and Dorsey have only been here for one year and look at the difference right there.

Seek
05-16-2014, 08:30 AM
It's amazing how people see a QB differently I've never heard that Bray was a good prospect before. Is there some upside to him sure. But he has to show that to me more then against other teams 3s before i start to buy into it

But it's funny and great how people see him differently and has led to a good debate in the offseason Time will tell on Bray I just need some convincing before I get to excited for him. And I really don't see him pushing Daniel off the roster.

All I know is that after training camp last year Andy Reid was really high on Bray. I believe many felt he would be a starter in the NFL, but then also said, it would most likley have to be with another team or a result of injury.

Daniel is over paid for a back up. If there is any truth to him possibly being a starter, I see Daniel being pushed out for cap reason alone.

brdempsey69
05-16-2014, 11:03 AM
Re-quoted for truth. Sometimes it takes seeing it in print to stop and consider the level of talent dropoff. Reid and Dorsey have only been here for one year and look at the difference right there.

And with the extra picks in 2015, they can try to stockpile the QB position. Who knows, maybe one falls right into their lap in round 1. Manziel nearly did, and I'm not so sure they wouldn't have taken Manziel if Cleveland hadn't traded up.

Seek
05-16-2014, 12:39 PM
And with the extra picks in 2015, they can try to stockpile the QB position. Who knows, maybe one falls right into their lap in round 1. Manziel nearly did, and I'm not so sure they wouldn't have taken Manziel if Cleveland hadn't traded up.

I think the Chiefs were hoping Maziel fell to them just so they could trade back. If they actually drafted him, I would have lost all respect for this regime. I fully expect him to follow the career path of Brady Quinn but much more immmature and dristracting. He will be the next Tim Tebow.

Ryfo18
05-16-2014, 03:05 PM
I think the Chiefs were hoping Maziel fell to them just so they could trade back. If they actually drafted him, I would have lost all respect for this regime. I fully expect him to follow the career path of Brady Quinn but much more immmature and dristracting. He will be the next Tim Tebow.

With all due respect, he's in a completely different league as a passer when compared with Tebow. Don't understand this comparison at all.

brdempsey69
05-16-2014, 03:10 PM
With all due respect, he's in a completely different league as a passer when compared with Tebow. Don't understand this comparison at all.

I agree. Manziel's skillset is a whole different world from Tebow. Tebow looked like a TE/RB trying to play QB. Manziel looks like a QB and on a good day, he lit up the scoreboard like a pinball machine at Texas A&M.

And one more thing. Quinn and Tebow most likely couldn't adapt to the WCO as well as Manziel probably could.

Seek
05-16-2014, 03:34 PM
With all due respect, he's in a completely different league as a passer when compared with Tebow. Don't understand this comparison at all.

Not comparison in skills. Completely different people and players. I was referring to the unecessary constant coverage and distraction based the person alone, regardless of their production on the field. It already started with the draft and special reports with where will he be selected. Tebow was one of the most loved Running backs in the NFL. Manziel is already getting that press and he has the ego to look for that attention.

doobs_05
05-16-2014, 06:11 PM
Not comparison in skills. Completely different people and players. I was referring to the unecessary constant coverage and distraction based the person alone, regardless of their production on the field. It already started with the draft and special reports with where will he be selected. Tebow was one of the most loved Running backs in the NFL. Manziel is already getting that press and he has the ego to look for that attention.

Michael Sam is closer to the Tebow media than Manziel

doobs_05
05-16-2014, 06:14 PM
That doesn't make Alex Smith a scapegoat for the Indy playoff loss, like some would make him out to be. He played far above anyone's expectations.


I'm not trying to say alex was the problem. The whole offense just stopped producing.

It's like when people tried to say 49ers lost that NFC title game to the giants because of the Returner but the offense was what... 0 for 11 on 3rd downs.

brdempsey69
05-16-2014, 06:18 PM
I'm not trying to say alex was the problem. The whole offense just stopped producing.

It's like when people tried to say 49ers lost that NFC title game to the giants because of the Returner but the offense was what... 0 for 11 on 3rd downs.

They did lose because of the fumbled punts. Those were the deciding factor. It put the Giants Offense in point-blank scoring range. If he doesn't fumble the punts the chances of the Giants getting those deciding points is decreased quite significantly.

Eydugstr
05-16-2014, 09:32 PM
I think the Chiefs were hoping Maziel fell to them just so they could trade back. If they actually drafted him, I would have lost all respect for this regime. I fully expect him to follow the career path of Brady Quinn but much more immmature and dristracting. He will be the next Tim Tebow.

Definitely agree about if Manziel would've fallen to the Chiefs...The phones would've been ringing with good offers.

The problem with Manziel is this, he's a great college QB, but he was in a situation in Texas where he had a WR squad that could bail him out when he couldn't scramble, after the plays broke down. If he'd come to KC, we'd be putting our 1st round draft picks' future in the hands of Bowe and Avery, who didn't show any urgency to get to an open area or at least scramble in the same direction of the QB when the play broke down. Also, he'd be hitting the books trying to figure out Andy Reid's offense. As good as Manziel is (if Cleveland is patient with putting together an offense that fits him, they'll be competitive) he wasn't a great fit for the Chiefs.

ctchiefsfan
05-16-2014, 11:32 PM
Well....Time to pish everybody off. I think Manziel could look pretty good in Reid's offense. I also think Bray and Murray can look pretty good in Reid's offense. And we know that Daniel can look pretty good in Reid's offense. He certainly did against San Diego with mostly our starters on the bench.

In fact, I believe almost ANY quarterback who has high intelligence, a good work and study ethic and the athletic ability to tuck the ball and run when that is needed can look pretty good in Reid's offense. Give him some better receivers and tight ends than we have now and I think almost any QB on our roster now can look pretty damned good.

Bray and Murray are question marks because we don't really know about their maturity and work ethic, but their is no doubt in my mind that both have the athletic ability to look pretty good in Reid's offense.

I have doubts about Manzeil's ability to work with Reid because I suspect Manzeil has narcisism issues and Reid's offense is not one that makes the QB the center of attention. Reid's offense (at least IMO) is one that makes the QB an important part of a team effort rather than a stand alone superstar.

Lineup Dough
05-16-2014, 11:49 PM
He is going to end up a 10-14 year starter for the Chiefs. Might be the best pick in my life besides Dontari Poe. Loved it. SIt a year and then boom domination.

ctchiefsfan
05-17-2014, 12:16 AM
He is going to end up a 10-14 year starter for the Chiefs. Might be the best pick in my life besides Dontari Poe. Loved it. SIt a year and then boom domination.

I think that is optimistic, but I'd be thrilled if you were correct.

brdempsey69
05-17-2014, 12:50 PM
Well, since this thread is about Murray and that he is now a Chief, it'll be up to Reid and the rest of the coaches to help him. Murray won't be another Joe Montana because Montana is incomparable and one of a kind. However, I do think Murray does compare very well to the guy in the picture below, whom Andy Reid said he wanted to get the next one of.

730

That's right, Len Dawson. If Murray pans out like Dawson did, nobody can complain.