My Top Positions of Need

[Chiefs4life24]

Top 6 Needs

1: WR
2: RT
3: Right Guard and Left Guard
4: ILB
5: CB- Sean Smith needs help and Phillip needs to play more, I've always been a believer in having 2 Corners
6- DE- need 2 really one for Devito's spot and depth

These are in no particular order either

[Stevie Ray]

1. QB - If you're not playing with a top 10 caliber QB, or a young QB that can potentially develop into one, then QB is always your biggest need.

2. ILB - DJ is getting older, and the Chiefs up the middle run defense suffered tremendously without him.

3. LT - Fisher is a bit overmatched talent-wise, and the importance of the position (especially in today's pass happy league) warrants having a top 10 caliber player to protect the QBs blind side. (There's always an abundance of good blockers available to fill the other needs along the offensive line).

4. Safety - Berry is on the shelf for the time being, and the Chiefs up the middle run defense suffered without him.

5. WR - Depth at WR is subpar, but the priority at the position is lessened if Smith is the QB as he tends to under-utilize perimeter passing.

6. TE - Depth is subpar behind Kelce (who has somewhat of a suspect injury history), and the priority at the position is heightened if Smith is the QB as he tends to rely heavily on his TE(s).

7. Pass rusher - Interior moreso than perimeter, but with a pass happy league, you can never have too many good ones.

In that order.

[Lewis_Chiefs]

1. QB - If you're not playing with a top 10 caliber QB, or a young QB that can potentially develop into one, then QB is always your biggest need.

2. ILB - DJ is getting older, and the Chiefs up the middle run defense suffered tremendously without him.

3. LT - Fisher is a bit overmatched talent-wise, and the importance of the position (especially in today's pass happy league) warrants having a top 10 caliber player to protect the QBs blind side. (There's always an abundance of good blockers available to fill the other needs along the offensive line).

4. Safety - Berry is on the shelf for the time being, and the Chiefs up the middle run defense suffered without him.

5. WR - Depth at WR is subpar, but the priority at the position is lessened if Smith is the QB as he tends to under-utilize perimeter passing.

6. TE - Depth is subpar behind Kelce (who has somewhat of a suspect injury history), and the priority at the position is heightened if Smith is the QB as he tends to rely heavily on his TE(s).

7. Pass rusher - Interior moreso than perimeter, but with a pass happy league, you can never have too many good ones.

In that order.

WR 5th ?!?

Mine would be

1. WR - Desperately need at least 2 wide receivers, I'd like Jaelen Strong. I couldn't care less if Bowe is not on the team next year way way too overpaid. I'm not a big Smith fan but i'd like to see what he can do with receivers who actually get open on a consistent basis.








2. Offensive Line - The OL was poor throughout the season, a right tackle and a guard would be nice.

3. ILB - DJ coming off a serious injury and the wrong side of 30, Josh Mauga did fill in admirably though.

4. CB - Sean Smith showed last year he can be a #1 corner, Gaines impressed to but there are still doubts if he can be the long term #2 starter on the outside.

5. Safety - I really like Abdullah but we need to look at replacing Berry who will hopefully overcome his illness quickly.

[Chiefs4life24]

QB is not on any smart persons list not a need. ILB is not as important as O-Line. And I had a thought if a LT falls to us take him and move Fisher to the right side. I would much rather overpay a good QB than a worthless WR. I would be happy with Strong or Parker. They definitely need the 2 Guards Fulton just wasn't ready. CB and Safety are gonna be just as big a need as WR and O-Line if we don't retain parker. I personally like Harris at TE. If I had to rank them it would be

WR and O-Line tied
Safety
Corner
ILB

[Stevie Ray]

I'm not a big Smith fan but i'd like to see what he can do with receivers who actually get open on a consistent basis.

Yea, because lord knows that Alex Smith has gone his entire career without having receivers who "actually get open on a consistent basis" -- the poor fella. -end sarcasm-

In the NFL, "open", as it pertains to pass catchers, is a relative term. Most balls are caught against tight coverage. The good QBs in the NFL have the skill to "throw receivers open" on a consistent basis. It comes down to good reads, anticipation and timing.

[Stevie Ray]

I would much rather overpay a good QB than a worthless WR.

Well, you'd 1st have to acquire a good QB before you can overpay him.

There are but a few things worse than overpaying an average QB - which is exactly what the Chiefs are doing now, and have done for the past 6 years.

But as long as they have fans that are so willing to accept mediocrity at QB, they'll keep pissing on your head and tell you that it's raining.

....... and people like you will buy into it - hook, line and sinker.

[N TX Dave]

Stevie Ray - We get it you don't like Smith please stop hijacking so many threads to let us know. WE GET IT! Did Smith sleep with your Mommie or what? Because you sound like you have a personal vendetta against him we don't even have to say a work about Smith and you hijack the thread and attack him again and again.

[jason1981]

Stevie Ray - We get it you don't like Smith please stop hijacking so many threads to let us know. WE GET IT! Did Smith sleep with your Mommie or what? Because you sound like you have a personal vendetta against him we don't even have to say a work about Smith and you hijack the thread and attack him again and again.

He sounds like my man hali all over again. Enough about smith. Hes not elite but can be a goodqb with theright talent around him. We need blockers and wr. He had barely anytimeto throw and when he did no one was open at all.

[Chiefs4life24]

Delusional. You want perfection and that doesn't exist on this planet, I'am so sick of this **** where people have to knock the QB we have, a true fan knows we have great pieces on this team anything more is asking the impossible. I mean JESUS CHRIST not everyone is Tom Brady or Peyton Manning if you love them guys so much be a Donkey FAN.

[Stevie Ray]

Stevie Ray - We get it you don't like Smith please stop hijacking so many threads to let us know. WE GET IT! Did Smith sleep with your Mommie or what? Because you sound like you have a personal vendetta against him we don't even have to say a work about Smith and you hijack the thread and attack him again and again.

Well I didn't bring Smith up. I listed the Chiefs' needs, and later made a response to another poster's comments about Smith. If you're sensitive to Smith, which clearly you are, that's a YOU problem.

When I hear comments along the lines of "Smith is a good QB" , I'm probably going to jump in. Sorry if that upsets you.

[Stevie Ray]

He sounds like my man hali all over again. Enough about smith. Hes not elite but can be a goodqb with theright talent around him.

As long as there are favorable comments being made about Smith, I feel justified in expressing my disagreement. I think he's no better than average, and people can take exception to it if they want. It's not as if I'm saying that he's a bad player, it's just that I'm not so accepting of mediocrity when it comes to the QB. Sue me.

[Stevie Ray]

Delusional. You want perfection and that doesn't exist on this planet, I'am so sick of this **** where people have to knock the QB we have, a true fan knows we have great pieces on this team anything more is asking the impossible. I mean JESUS CHRIST not everyone is Tom Brady or Peyton Manning if you love them guys so much be a Donkey FAN.

Just because everyone can't be elite, that's not an excuse to settle for mediocrity.

Do you want to have the best chance to win a championship, or are you fat and happy just having a winning record every now and again?

I'll do you and the rest of the Smith family a favor -- when Alex screws the pooch and leaves us disappointed and empty handed, I won't even bring up the fact that I told you so.

[Chiefs4life24]

Because I don't understand what you want outta smith, not everything is the QB fault. This is a deep hatred I don't understand why??? We have bigger problems than Smith. We just want you to see our point of view and be open too it. What is you definition of mediocrity???? The world and owners of the managment of the Chiefs will always disagree and be right.

You can't fix stupid guys

[Stevie Ray]

Because I don't understand what you want outta smith, not everything is the QB fault. This is a deep hatred I don't understand why??? We have bigger problems than Smith. We just want you to see our point of view and be open too it. What is you definition of mediocrity????

Excuse you, it's not hatred. It's called objectivity.

It's not that I want more from Smith. It's that I recognize the reality of what he is as a QB, and I don't allow my bias for all things Chiefs to keep me from acknowledging it.

Smith isn't a terrible QB, but he isn't a good QB either. Some of you just can't see Hell for all of the flames.

[Stevie Ray]

You can't fix pedestrian QB play by trying to upgrade everywhere else. It doesn't matter who you put around a mediocre QB, he's still going to be mediocre. The supporting cast is only as effective as is the QB.

The outcome is an overall mediocre offense. When those are the results, some folks will continue to focus on pass protection, dropped passes, subpar WR production, etc......... and view it as a failure of the supporting cast.

[Chiefs4life24]

Because its the truth. Millions of fans can't be wrong. You people read to much into things . Smith is certainly at least a top 12 QB granted he is not Manning, Rogets , Brady, Brees, Luck or Wilson but he is definitely better than half the league by far, stats don't really matter its just numbers on a paper the game of football is all about time and inches. I don't believe in taking risks and I understand everything is a risk however sometimes slow and conservative wins too

[Coach]

A big reason why Smith doesn't throw many deep balls is because our WR's can't get open. The one that can(Kelce) got thrown and caught many deep balls. I'm not sure that any WR on our team could make another starting roster anywhere in the league. Maybe Bowe, but he sure as hell wouldn't be a #1 WR. What Alex Smith has accomplished with this uninspiring group of WR's and deficient OL is nothing short of miraculous.

But go on hating Alex Smith. Sorry to interrupt.

[N TX Dave]

I think all of on here agree that Smith is not an elite QB and most of us admit he is nothing more than average okay so you don't have to convince us of that so stop trying. The big difference with us is we do not see a valid option at this time to upgrade him unless it is one of the young ones we have on the team currently, there will not be a can't miss at our pick this year in the draft, in fact there may be only 1 or 2 QB in that category this year and some mocks have the second one falling to us and we pick him, who knows. Let me ask you if you have a grade C QB and a grade grade D OL and a grade D WRs and you can not see a definite improvement in the QB what is wrong with upgrading the OL and WR to grade Bs? Do you think that will not help the team at all?

[Chiefster]

I don't know whether or not the Chiefs Ownership/Administration take into account what Chiefs fans view as a smart first round pick, or take into account what Chiefs fans are content with.

[Eydugstr]

Top 6 Needs

1: WR
2: RT
3: Right Guard and Left Guard
4: ILB
5: CB- Sean Smith needs help and Phillip needs to play more, I've always been a believer in having 2 Corners
6- DE- need 2 really one for Devito's spot and depth

These are in no particular order either

Good list, Chiefs4life.

If it were me I might swap priorities 3-5 around a bit, but think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[Chiefs4life24]

Thank you. I though to kill two birds with one stone if a LT falls to us take him and Move Fisher off the blind side to the RT spot and that takes care of LT and RT needs. Something that bothers me about the draft is O-Line does look as deep as the other positions, from what I've seen the majority of the best o-line will go the upper first round.

[Eydugstr]

Thank you. I though to kill two birds with one stone if a LT falls to us take him and Move Fisher off the blind side to the RT spot and that takes care of LT and RT needs. Something that bothers me about the draft is O-Line does look as deep as the other positions, from what I've seen the majority of the best o-line will go the upper first round.

You'll never hear me squawk about drafting O-line, period. You can find decent lineman in later rounds in the draft, but the monster lineman usually get snapped up pretty quick.

About the only other thing I can think of adding to that list would be a RB, for depth. Because of the extra draft picks we've got options.

[Stevie Ray]

Because its the truth. Millions of fans can't be wrong. You people read to much into things . Smith is certainly at least a top 12 QB granted he is not Manning, Rogets , Brady, Brees, Luck or Wilson but he is definitely better than half the league by far

Millions of fans?? Top 12 QB?? Better than half the league by far??

Smith has you under a spell. You're a Smithzophrenic. :yahoo:

[Stevie Ray]

A big reason why Smith doesn't throw many deep balls is because our WR's can't get open. The one that can(Kelce) got thrown and caught many deep balls. I'm not sure that any WR on our team could make another starting roster anywhere in the league. Maybe Bowe, but he sure as hell wouldn't be a #1 WR. What Alex Smith has accomplished with this uninspiring group of WR's and deficient OL is nothing short of miraculous.

Well there's an original thought.

Here it is year 10 of Smith's career -- a career in which he has never been an effective downfield passer, a career in which no receiver has ever excelled playing with him, and a career in which his offensive lines have always struggled to keep him upright.

......... and despite all of the available data, folks are still bewildered as to why the same traits have followed him to KC. Smith has been more productive the past 2 seasons in KC than he's EVER been, yet the delusions of a poor supporting cast still persist.

Wake up, people!

[Chiefs4life24]

Stevie even you can admit this o-line sucked as is one of the worst we have had in many years. I hate to say it but as good as I think Fulton might become he wasn't ready yet, Jeff Allen is hurt too much and can't be relied upon, the verdict is still out on Fisher, the only one that was worth a damn was Hudson. Is it too much to ask for a o-line like we had when Road and Shields was here

[Stevie Ray]

I think all of on here agree that Smith is not an elite QB and most of us admit he is nothing more than average okay so you don't have to convince us of that so stop trying.

Either I'm not reading most of these posts correctly, or you're simply trying to qualify your adoration for Smith. No, all on here do not agree that Smith is nothing more than average. By most of what I've read, most of you think that he's capable of being much better if only he had better players around him.


The big difference with us is we do not see a valid option at this time to upgrade him

That's because you think that Smith is better than what he actually is. If you agree that he's no better than average, like you claim, then you understand that an average QB is imminently replaceable. How will you ever know if you're content with being stuck with average?

[matthewschiefs]

Well there's an original thought.

Here it is year 10 of Smith's career -- a career in which he has never been an effective downfield passer, a career in which no receiver has ever excelled playing with him, and a career in which his offensive lines have always struggled to keep him upright.

......... and despite all of the available data, folks are still bewildered as to why the same traits have followed him to KC. Smith has been more productive the past 2 seasons in KC than he's EVER been, yet the delusions of a poor supporting cast still persist.

Wake up, people!

That line from any Smith basher is funny.

YOU don't want to look at all the available data just the parts that suit your position and deem any of that data that doesn't fit your opinion as "excuses"

It's funny you want to talk about Alex's Smith's history but why not talk about the Chiefs?

The dropped passes "excuse" was in KC for many years BEFORE Alex got to KC. In fact they were near the record in that area in 2009 (funny how you won't ever mention that)
http://cjonline.com/sports/football/2009-12-23/chiefs_near_dropped_pass_record
Todd Haley the coach at the time even said he felt there were more then what the offical number was at one point.

Why ignore this available data? other then it doesn't fit your opinion?

The fact is the Chiefs have had these problems well before Alex was the QB. I'm sure somehow someway that's still Alex's fault

[Stevie Ray]

Stevie even you can admit this o-line sucked as is one of the worst we have had in many years.

Blocking is a supplemental piece of the puzzle - particularly at the pro level, and there is no shortage of good blockers in the NFL. More times than not, what impacts the results of effective/ineffective blocking is how it is utilized by the skill players - namely the QBs and the RBs.

Jamaal Charles doesn't seem to have many issues utilizing the blocking of this group; and it's NOT because they're soooo much better at run blocking than they are at pass blocking.

Blocking is also a scheme, and it's not just plainly about the 5 guys that man the offensive line.

[Stevie Ray]

there will not be a can't miss at our pick this year in the draft

That's the thing, it doesn't take an Andrew Luck type to compete for Smith's job, or even to replace him. The 49ers replaced him with Kaepernick (a 2nd round, 2nd tier type) for goodness sake.

Besides, none of this has anything to do with the conversation about how Smith's style of play causes offensive lines and receivers to appear inadequate.


Let me ask you if you have a grade C QB and a grade grade D OL and a grade D WRs and you can not see a definite improvement in the QB what is wrong with upgrading the OL and WR to grade Bs?

This is where you continue to miss the point. This QB, his subpar pocket skills, and his tendency to forfeit the perimeter passing game, lends to the appearance that his OL and WRs are grade D. His OL and WRs, THOUGHOUT HIS CAREER, have appeared to be grade D. Why is that?

Is he unlucky? Perhaps you think it's all a coincidence, and if so ....... whatever.

[Stevie Ray]

:sign0153:

[Stevie Ray]

It's funny you want to talk about Alex's Smith's history but why not talk about the Chiefs?



Actually, I've talked about both. I've talked about the present situations of both, as well as the history of both.

[Chiefs4life24]

I thought by now everyone would agree that the coaching staff past and present missed the boat on the WR's that position has been the worst we've had in a while. They should have got a WR in the draft last year

[Stevie Ray]

The dropped passes "excuse" was in KC for many years BEFORE Alex got to KC. In fact they were near the record in that area in 2009 (funny how you won't ever mention that)


2 things:

1. QBs play a role in dropped passes, but perhaps you don't understand that. Over the past decade, the Chiefs have been the quintessential of mediocrity when it comes to the pocket/passing skills of their QBs.

2. Dropped passes are a reality of the game, and all teams have to deal with it. It's an ancillary factor, and a petty argument to raise in defense of the QB. It's the equivalent of a child pointing to things that others did to help he/she get into trouble.

If your point is to say that the pass catchers didn't always come through, then I doubt that anyone disputes that. If your point is to say that it's not ALL Alex Smith's fault, then I'm baffled as to why you think anyone has made such a claim.

- But If your point is to say that a few less dropped passes would've made a mound of difference over the entirety of a season, then you're just kidding yourself. It's not even a clever dodge.

- And if all you're going to do is say, "This (or that) guy missed blocks" ..... or ..... "This (or that) guy dropped catchable balls" ......... then we're just talking past one another.

If you have empirical data that actually addresses/refutes my position on Alex Smith, then I'd be glad to entertain it. But if you're just going to point out that there are flaws in other aspects of the team as well, then at that point we're not even having the same conversation.

[Chiefs4life24]

I do agree with that they dropps don't mean a lot some of them however come at bad times in games when we need them to catch the ball. If Bows would've caught that pass against Pittsburgh we may have made the playoffs its just the stupid drops that irritate me

[matthewschiefs]

2 things:

1. QBs play a role in dropped passes, but perhaps you don't understand that. Over the past decade, the Chiefs have been the quintessential of mediocrity when it comes to the pocket/passing skills of their QBs.

2. Dropped passes are a reality of the game, and all teams have to deal with it. It's an ancillary factor, and a petty argument to raise in defense of the QB. It's the equivalent of a child pointing to things that others did to help he/she get into trouble.

If your point is to say that the pass catchers didn't always come through, then I doubt that anyone disputes that. If your point is to say that it's not ALL Alex Smith's fault, then I'm baffled as to why you think anyone has made such a claim.

- But If your point is to say that a few less dropped passes would've made a mound of difference over the entirety of a season, then you're just kidding yourself. It's not even a clever dodge.

- And if all you're going to do is say, "This (or that) guy missed blocks" ..... or ..... "This (or that) guy dropped catchable balls" ......... then we're just talking past one another.

If you have empirical data that actually addresses/refutes my position on Alex Smith, then I'd be glad to entertain it. But if you're just going to point out that there are flaws in other aspects of the team as well, then at that point we're not even having the same conversation.

Nothing but a cop out typical of Smith bashers

It would be like me saying all qbs make mistakes all qbs miss throws. Somehow I don't think you would be willing to brush it off that easy as you do for the wrs.

You have been given refutes to dispute your position you deem them as excuses and nothing more. You won't listen to anything that disuputes your claim. I've pointed out how QBs who played the game at a high level were saying it was on the WRS and Line way more the Alex. But I guess you just know the game so much more then guys who have played the game. To go on is pointless anything given to you that refutes your claim is "just an excuse" I shouldn't have even bothered my bad

[Stevie Ray]

It would be like me saying all qbs make mistakes all qbs miss throws.

Except that's not what I'm saying. That's your position. You're the one pointing out that receivers have dropped balls, and offensive linemen have missed blocks. It's just a dodge, and not hardly a clever one.


You have been given refutes to dispute your position you deem them as excuses and nothing more.

You still don't get it, do you? Pointing out dropped passes isn't a refute - it's nothing more than a deflection. You're blaming dropped passes as the reason why Alex Smith's production as a QB has been average. Typical.

[matthewschiefs]

Except that's not what I'm saying. That's your position. You're the one pointing out that receivers have dropped balls, and offensive linemen have missed blocks. It's just a dodge, and not hardly a clever one.



You still don't get it, do you? Pointing out dropped passes isn't a refute - it's nothing more than a deflection. You're blaming dropped passes as the reason why Alex Smith's production as a QB has been average. Typical.

LOL you want to talk about dodging

How come you always dodge the point that QBS who have played the postion at at high level disagree with you. Why do you constantly dodge that point?

But whatever hate away have fun

[N TX Dave]

LOL you want to talk about dodging

How come you always dodge the point that QBS who have played the postion at at high level disagree with you. Why do you constantly dodge that point?

But whatever hate away have fun

Today I gave up on him, he puts words in your mouth and refuses to answer questions he does not like and will listen to nothing anyone else says and only will accept HIS view as though the rest of the world does not know anything. You can not have an intelligence discussion with someone who refuses to yield one point even much less listen to you. You and I have had difference of opinions but we both accepted each others view and moved on, he won't and brings it up anytime he can. So I finally added him to my ignore list, I am tired of reading his repetitive garbage everyday.

[matthewschiefs]

Today I gave up on him, he puts words in your mouth and refuses to answer questions he does not like and will listen to nothing anyone else says and only will accept HIS view as though the rest of the world does not know anything. You can not have an intelligence discussion with someone who refuses to yield one point even much less listen to you. You and I have had difference of opinions but we both accepted each others view and moved on, he won't and brings it up anytime he can. So I finally added him to my ignore list, I am tired of reading his repetitive garbage everyday.

Today is my fault

I should have known that it wasn't going to go anywhere

I'm a big believer in accountability not just for some but for all across the board. Over the past monthes I've stated that the QB position has to play better. I don't know how many more ways I can say it. But in saying that doesn't mean I don't hold the WRs accountable for the turds they laid on the field or the O line. Saying "a good QB overcomes that" is a hall pass to those guys. IMO

This isn't just my thinking when it comes to the QB. Let me defend my postion a tad here and take everyone back to the hours and days after the playoff loss to the Colts a year ago. Many wanted Sutton gone. I said that I can't blame Sutton for the defense doing what they had done since before he became the DC. Same with Alex. I can't blame him when the problems that hurt the offense more then anything has been in KC has been around well before he became the QB. So while YES i agree the play from the QB spot needs to improve I won't keep going on and on and on about it when it wasn't the biggest factor in the offensive struggles. Even the experts have said that.

[N TX Dave]

Matthew - I don't disagree but at this time I do not see anyone available that will definitely be better than Smith that we can get, if there was I would be all for it and I think that if he had a better cast around him, Smith would be okay not great but okay and that is really what you need for the QB, if the rest of the offensive is good, the QB just needs to play okay and not be a turn over machine he does not have to play elite. I feel Smith could not go down field very often for several reasons, so it was dink and dunk all the time so opposing defenses would stack the box to stop screen to 5 yard passes and runs.

I would really like to have a top 8 QB but we don't, so we need to move forward with what we have and make improvements in the rest of the team, improve what you can. I do think we have a few receivers in Wilson, Kelce and DAT

[Chiefs4life24]

I think we have that in Murray by the time Alex contract is done he should be ready to go

[Stevie Ray]

How come you always dodge the point that QBS who have played the postion at at high level disagree with you. Why do you constantly dodge that point?

What?? You're not even trying any more.

[matthewschiefs]

What?? You're not even trying any more.

It's the point that I've made a number of times that you have never had any answer for.

Trent Green, Phil Sims, Rich Gannon all darn good QBs in their time called the big majority of the Chiefs games this past season. TIME AND TIME again they talked about the chiefs WR NOT GETTING OPEN. Gannon Called the WRs out for QUITING ON ROUTS. These are as close to experts as you can get. Guys who know the postion. THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU. You have constantly ignored that then claim that there's been nothing offered to refute your claims.

[Stevie Ray]

I think I've run out of ways to describe the inanity that takes place in the whole Alex Smith debate. Obviously some folks can't stand the fact that I (and many others) view Alex Smith as a pedestrian QB, and/or the fact that we won't allow offensive line and receivers to be used as an excuse for his mediocre play.

If you want to believe that Alex Smith's supporting cast is the biggest problem, or if you want to believe that Alex Smith isn't the primary source for many of the issues that you complain about when it comes to the Chiefs' offense, then go ahead and continue believing it ...... that's your prerogative.

It's almost like trying to convince children that Santa Claus isn't real. At some point, you just have to allow them time to figure it out on their own.

[matthewschiefs]

I think I've run out of ways to describe the inanity that takes place in the whole Alex Smith debate. Obviously some folks can't stand the fact that I (and many others) view Alex Smith as a pedestrian QB, and/or the fact that we won't allow offensive line and receivers to be used as an excuse for his mediocre play.

If you want to believe that Alex Smith's supporting cast is the biggest problem, or if you want to believe that Alex Smith isn't the primary source for many of the issues that you complain about when it comes to the Chiefs' offense, then go ahead and continue believing it ...... that's your prerogative.

It's almost like trying to convince children that Santa Claus isn't real. At some point, you just have to allow them time to figure it out on their own.

AND YOU STILL IGNORED THE POINT LOL

I guess you are just so much smarter then those guys who have actually PLAYED THE GAME

[Stevie Ray]

It's the point that I've made a number of times that you have never had any answer for.
Trent Green, Phil Sims, Rich Gannon all darn good QBs in their time called the big majority of the Chiefs games this past season. TIME AND TIME again they talked about the chiefs WR NOT GETTING OPEN. Gannon Called the WRs out for QUITING ON ROUTS. These are as close to experts as you can get. Guys who know the postion. THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU. You have constantly ignored that then claim that there's been nothing offered to refute your claims.

Like I said, you're not even trying anymore.

It's play by play commentary, but beyond that, I've never taken a stance that there weren't times that receivers weren't getting open or that offensive linemen aren't blowing assignments, etc. My stance is that Alex Smith is a pedestrian QB, and he's the source of many of the Chiefs offensive problems. In what way are they disagreeing with that?

I've heard these same play by play/color commentary guys both praise and criticize every team, player and coach that they've done commentary on. It's a necessary aspect of their jobs. If you're running to that for support, then it's a clear sign of desperation on your part.

You have an incredible knack for pointing out particular instances, situations and quotes that back what you already want to believe. It's the epitome of confirmation bias.

[matthewschiefs]

Like I said, you're not even trying anymore.

It's play by play commentary, but beyond that, I've never taken a stance that there weren't times that receivers weren't getting open or that offensive linemen aren't blowing assignments, etc. My stance is that Alex Smith is a pedestrian QB, and he's the source of many of the Chiefs offensive problems. In what way are they disagreeing with that?

I've heard these same play by play/color commentary guys both praise and criticize every team, player and coach that they've done commentary on. It's a necessary aspect of their jobs. If you're running to that for support, then it's a clear sign of desperation on your part.

You have an incredible knack for pointing out particular instances, situations and quotes that back what you already want to believe. It's the epitome of confirmation bias.

So tell us

When WRs are not getting open and Quiting on routes what in the world is a QB suppose to do? throw it to himself? How do you not understand how that hurts an offense.

When needing answers to something a common way to get those answers is going to an expert. Someone who has experiance and knowledge in the field. I have showed what the experts guys who have experiance and knowledge in the field have said time and time again. But like anything else that doesnt fit your opinion it's just to be disgarded. And you want to talk about a Bias? REALLY? That's funny. But whatever

[Stevie Ray]

AND YOU STILL IGNORED THE POINT LOL

It's a trivial point.

You're saying that because color commentators have pointed out instances where they felt that someone quit on a route, or receivers weren't open ........... that it is somehow a disagreement or rebuttal to my position that Alex Smith is a problem.

LOL Do you NOT see the disconnect there? All you're doing is deflecting because you have no empirical data to refute the facts that I've laid out. You're not trying; you're tapping out.

[Stevie Ray]

I have showed what the experts guys who have experiance and knowledge in the field have said time and time again.

The inanity continues.

[matthewschiefs]

The inanity continues.

Why because something doesn't fit your opinion?

Have fun with that attitude I have 0 respect for it

[N TX Dave]

Why because something doesn't fit your opinion?

Have fun with that attitude I have 0 respect for it

That is why I added him to my ignore list as far as he is concerned it is his way and only his way. He ignores everyone else's opinion and tries to cram his down everyone's throat if you don't agree with him your opinion is insane. No one else is allowed to have an opinion if it is not the same as his.

[matthewschiefs]

That is why I added him to my ignore list as far as he is concerned it is his way and only his way. He ignores everyone else's opinion and tries to cram his down everyone's throat if you don't agree with him your opinion is insane. No one else is allowed to have an opinion if it is not the same as his.

Pretty much

I mean I don't know in what world taking the opinions of guys who have played the game at that position isn't a reasonable way to form a judgement.

These guys were commentating the game it's their very job to explain what happened. If a play didn't work they break down where it went wrong. All year they were saying "NO one was open" "The line didn't give smith a chance" OVER AND OVER AGAIN. They at times mentioned when Alex made a mistake Trent questioned his placement of a pass here or there. But the far more constant them of why things were going wrong was not on Alex. But I guess these guys just have no idea what they are talking about. I mean what would a former NFL MVP QB no about the QB postion anyway

[Stevie Ray]

Why because something doesn't fit your opinion?

Because it doesn't refute my position.

Here, I'll drop it down where maybe you can get to it.

- My position: Alex Smith is a mediocre QB and is the source of many of the issues that you complain about.

- Your retort: "But even Rich Gannon mentioned in game commentary that a guy quit on his route."

*-facepalm-*

[N TX Dave]

Pretty much

I mean I don't know in what world taking the opinions of guys who have played the game at that position isn't a reasonable way to form a judgement.

These guys were commentating the game it's their very job to explain what happened. If a play didn't work they break down where it went wrong. All year they were saying "NO one was open" "The line didn't give smith a chance" OVER AND OVER AGAIN. They at times mentioned when Alex made a mistake Trent questioned his placement of a pass here or there. But the far more constant them of why things were going wrong was not on Alex. But I guess these guys just have no idea what they are talking about. I mean what would a former NFL MVP QB no about the QB postion anyway

In Stevie's world no it does not mean squat because it is not support his narrow view of the world. I ask him several weeks ago who can we get to replace Smith and he did not know all he knows is this team will never do anything with Smith as QB. So he has no suggestions how to improve the position just that we are stupid for having so much money wrapped up in him, I even told him I am not happy with the money the team gave him but it is done and can not be undone, he didn't care because I did not bad mouth Smith.

[matthewschiefs]

Because it doesn't refute my position.

Here, I'll drop it down where maybe you can get to it.

- My position: Alex Smith is a mediocre QB and is the source of many of the issues that you complain about.

- Your retort: "But even Rich Gannon mentioned in game commentary that a guy quit on his route."

*-facepalm-*

So wrs not getting open or quiting on routes doesn't hurt an offense?

Again tell me what is a QB suppose to do when that happens. Grab his star trek communicator and say "scotty beam me to the endzone"?

How do you not understand how those things hurt the offense? REALLY?

[Eydugstr]

Like I said, you're not even trying anymore.

Not that you'd be trying to drag this out or anything remotely like that.


I've heard these same play by play/color commentary guys both praise and criticize every team, player and coach that they've done commentary on. It's a necessary aspect of their jobs. If you're running to that for support, then it's a clear sign of desperation on your part. You have an incredible knack for pointing out particular instances, situations and quotes that back what you already want to believe. It's the epitome of confirmation bias.

It's called making a point. Just because it didn't match your "inanity" or "empirical data" criteria doesn't mean it's not true. Your routine might be a bit more believable if you didn't have to have disclaimers or guidelines built in to every post. Do you even watch the games, or are you just trying to read the stats after the fact and re-imagine the games based from that?


He sounds like my man hali all over again. Enough about smith. Hes not elite but can be a goodqb with theright talent around him. We need blockers and wr. He had barely anytimeto throw and when he did no one was open at all.

Agreed, jason1981. Nothing wrong with your eyesight. Or Chiefs4life's, N TX dave's, ctc's or m/c's.


Well I didn't bring Smith up. I listed the Chiefs' needs, and later made a response to another poster's comments about Smith. If you're sensitive to Smith, which clearly you are, that's a YOU problem.

When I hear comments along the lines of "Smith is a good QB" , I'm probably going to jump in. Sorry if that upsets you.


Just because everyone can't be elite, that's not an excuse to settle for mediocrity.

Do you want to have the best chance to win a championship, or are you fat and happy just having a winning record every now and again?

I'll do you and the rest of the Smith family a favor -- when Alex screws the pooch and leaves us disappointed and empty handed, I won't even bring up the fact that I told you so.


Excuse you, it's not hatred. It's called objectivity.

Excuse yourself. Like ctc pointed out, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and smells like a duck...It's probably going to get called out for being a duck. And you've done a lot of quackin' about a QB that you feel isn't good, but somehow were compelled to research him for two years.


It's not that I want more from Smith. It's that I recognize the reality of what he is as a QB, and I don't allow my bias for all things Chiefs to keep me from acknowledging it.

Translation: "Smith will never be good enough for me. I'll dog him and his supporters relentlessly as I pursue my goal of one day holding a last word trophy." While I've read about a Thomas-the-train fork, spoon & mashed pears combo get handed out, I've yet to see a last word trophy get handed out here, and seriously question it's value.


Smith isn't a terrible QB, but he isn't a good QB either.

I posted that just in case you tried to use the comeback of "..I never said he wasn't a good QB..."


Some of you just can't see Hell for all of the flames.

Yeah, right. But thank goodness you're here to save us from ourselves, to think we'd be on the loose deducing things with our own eyesight.


You can't fix pedestrian QB play by trying to upgrade everywhere else. It doesn't matter who you put around a mediocre QB, he's still going to be mediocre. The supporting cast is only as effective as is the QB.

The outcome is an overall mediocre offense. When those are the results, some folks will continue to focus on pass protection, dropped passes, subpar WR production, etc......... and view it as a failure of the supporting cast.

Chiefs fans tend to go by what they see from a player when he's wearing a Chiefs uniform. Go figure. After the playoff game last year, nobody complained about the QB. But phew that was a close one, because you showed up in the nick of time to tell us that our eyes were decieving us, and later defended your position by bringing up Matt Cassel's statistics.


A big reason why Smith doesn't throw many deep balls is because our WR's can't get open. The one that can(Kelce) got thrown and caught many deep balls. I'm not sure that any WR on our team could make another starting roster anywhere in the league. Maybe Bowe, but he sure as hell wouldn't be a #1 WR. What Alex Smith has accomplished with this uninspiring group of WR's and deficient OL is nothing short of miraculous.

But go on hating Alex Smith. Sorry to interrupt.


Well there's an original thought.

Here it is year 10 of Smith's career -- a career in which he has never been an effective downfield passer, a career in which no receiver has ever excelled playing with him, and a career in which his offensive lines have always struggled to keep him upright.

......... and despite all of the available data, folks are still bewildered as to why the same traits have followed him to KC. Smith has been more productive the past 2 seasons in KC than he's EVER been, yet the delusions of a poor supporting cast still persist.

Wake up, people!

I've got an even better original thought....When the guy that has the words "Site Owner and Admin" under his name posts "But go on hating Smith. Sorry to interrupt", treat it like a warning shot being fired across the bow. You omitted that part from your re-post, did you NOT see the "Site Owner and Admin" part written underneath Coach's name?


I think I've run out of ways to describe the inanity that takes place in the whole Alex Smith debate. Obviously some folks can't stand the fact that I (and many others) view Alex Smith as a pedestrian QB, and/or the fact that we won't allow offensive line and receivers to be used as an excuse for his mediocre play.

If you want to believe that Alex Smith's supporting cast is the biggest problem, or if you want to believe that Alex Smith isn't the primary source for many of the issues that you complain about when it comes to the Chiefs' offense, then go ahead and continue believing it ...... that's your prerogative.

It's almost like trying to convince children that Santa Claus isn't real. At some point, you just have to allow them time to figure it out on their own.

Obviously you can't stand the fact that Alex Smith is a Chief. You also seem to have issues with Chiefs fans that are calling it as they see it. What we've seen was Andy Reid becoming head coach, Dorsey becoming GM, Alex Smith becoming QB, and the team going from 7-9/2-14 to 11-5/9-7. We didn't fall off the SF bandwagon that expected Alex Smith to win it all, and then run over to Chiefs forums to pout and whine about it. Instead Chiefs fans had their own series of debacles to live through while the 49'er's went through theirs.

[Stevie Ray]

These guys were commentating the game it's their very job to explain what happened. If a play didn't work they break down where it went wrong. All year they were saying "NO one was open" "The line didn't give smith a chance" OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Their game commentary is neither an agreement nor disagreement with my stance that Alex Smith's lackluster pocket/passing skills is a problem. In fact, it says nothing about their opinions of him as a QB. Why you don't understand that much is beyond me at this point.

[Stevie Ray]

So wrs not getting open or quiting on routes doesn't hurt an offense?

LOL you're getting worse.

When has this EVER been my stance?

My stance is that Alex Smith is a banal level QB. You can either address that directly, or you can continue to deflect by using everyone else as an excuse.

[matthewschiefs]

LOL you're getting worse.

When has this EVER been my stance?

My stance is that Alex Smith is a banal level QB. You can either address that directly, or you can continue to deflect by using everyone else as an excuse.

Your stance has been adressed time and time again you just ignore anything that doesn't suite your opinion or make up a bs reason why that just doesn't matter.

So keep hating have fun you seem to enjoy it. Sorry i got in the way

[Stevie Ray]

It's called making a point. Just because it didn't match your "inanity" or "empirical data" criteria doesn't mean it's not true.

I didn't opine as to whether I thought it was true or untrue. Commentary about what other players may or may not have done wrong doesn't address my stance about Alex Smith does wrong. It's actually a pretty simple concept, or so I thought.


I've got an even better original thought....When the guy that has the words "Site Owner and Admin" under his name posts "But go on hating Smith. Sorry to interrupt", treat it like a warning shot being fired across the bow. You omitted that part from your re-post, did you NOT see the "Site Owner and Admin" part written underneath Coach's name?

An idle threat of sorts? A disagreement about the Chiefs, on a Chiefs message board, is taken so personally that "warning shots" are fired? That's a new low. I'll give admin (whoever they are) the benefit of the doubt that they aren't that petty.


You also seem to have issues with Chiefs fans that are calling it as they see it.

Clearly it's the other way around, but nice try. I wouldn't ask anything less from other fans, but that doesn't mean that we have to agree. That's part of what makes being a fan enjoyable.

It should be another fun season, and the bantering back and forth between fans should be an interesting follow. Bask in it.

[Stevie Ray]

Your stance has been adressed time and time again

If the best you can do to address it is to use everyone else as an excuse, well ........, then ....... it's just the best you can do. I can't force you to keep the focus on Alex Smith.


you just ignore anything that doesn't suite your opinion or make up a bs reason why that just doesn't matter.

I disregard things that don't address my opinion. If you want to have a conversation about everyone else's performance, then I'll try my best to humor you. I suspect that it would be a fairly quick conversation because I doubt that we'll have much disagreement there.

Where we disagree is with the QB, but instead of addressing that directly, you recourse back to the conversation about everyone else's play. It's a vicious cycle that I've been trying to bring to your attention for several posts now.

[Chiefs4life24]

Stevie what's you're opinion of Rodney Hudson would you resign him? I thought he played pretty damn good considering he didn't get any help

[jason1981]

Hey mymanhali or i mean stevie ray guy thanks for the hyjacking a thread again. Go hate on smith somewhere else please. Hes better than half of the qbs in the league. Everyone should just ignore him and not respond to any of his crap he will no longer have a reason to come on here if no one reads his crap. Smith is a top 15 qb. With a good wr core he can be a top 10.

[matthewschiefs]

If the best you can do to address it is to use everyone else as an excuse, well ........, then ....... it's just the best you can do. I can't force you to keep the focus on Alex Smith.



I disregard things that don't address my opinion. If you want to have a conversation about everyone else's performance, then I'll try my best to humor you. I suspect that it would be a fairly quick conversation because I doubt that we'll have much disagreement there.

Where we disagree is with the QB, but instead of addressing that directly, you recourse back to the conversation about everyone else's play. It's a vicious cycle that I've been trying to bring to your attention for several posts now.

So I've asked this in a couple of other post but you of course ignored it since you didn't have an answer for it. But I'll for the moment assume you just for some reason didn't see this and ask again. WHAT IS A QB SUPPOSE TO DO WHEN WRS DONT GET OPEN AND QUIT ON ROUTES? How is he suppose to "make a play" when that's happening. The reason the play of talent around the QB is brought up is because it's part of what happened. A QB can't just get the ball and start chucking the ball. The guys around him have to do their job. Sorry if that doesn't suit your opinion but it's just the way it is.

Your claims were also addressed as I pointed out by what the experts guys who have played the position at a high level said throughout the season. If your claims were correct surely they would have been talking about it. And from time to time on plays they did pinpoint Smith as the problem on that play (see if you want to really have an objective look you don't run from facts that don't support your thoughts you face the facts) As I noted Trent Green pointed out from time to time when Alex could have placed the ball better. But far more often they were saying the WRs and or the O line didn't give Smith a chance. Again this is not me saying this it's guys who have been there playing. If your opinion is correct why were they pinpointing the guys around Smith as the weak point? Why were they not calling it out when it's there very job to explain what went wrong on a play?

Your tactic is what is called the poisoning of the well. When factual information doesn't fit your argument you have to either discredit the person giving the information or just find someway why the information just isn't creditable instead of facing the fact itself. So while you continue to claim your stance hasn't been addressed sorry but it has. Sorry if the facts don't support your hate. But by all means dont let it stop you. Have fun. It was fun at first but now it's just like any other Smith hater. Same old stuff over and over again while you run for anything that doesn't fit your stance. Good luck with that

[doobs_05]

You can't fix pedestrian QB play by trying to upgrade everywhere else. It doesn't matter who you put around a mediocre QB, he's still going to be mediocre. The supporting cast is only as effective as is the QB.

The outcome is an overall mediocre offense. When those are the results, some folks will continue to focus on pass protection, dropped passes, subpar WR production, etc......... and view it as a failure of the supporting cast.

best example, Jay Cutler. Dude had Brandon marshall, Ashlon Jeffery, and Matt Forte and couldn't get anything done.

[doobs_05]

Hey mymanhali or i mean stevie ray guy thanks for the hyjacking a thread again. Go hate on smith somewhere else please. Hes better than half of the qbs in the league. Everyone should just ignore him and not respond to any of his crap he will no longer have a reason to come on here if no one reads his crap. Smith is a top 15 qb. With a good wr core he can be a top 10.

You do realize that if you just don't say anything about his post, accept his opinion and go with it, this thread wouldn't be hijacked? If everyone just saw his post and said "okay, don't agree but whatever" he probably wouldn't say anything. It's not wrong for a person to question the QB position seeing how the Chiefs really haven't had many above average or more QBs in their history. They continue to roll out FA QBs, yes it gave them a SB back in 69' and a AFC title game in 93-94 season, but since then...nothing. It's really hard to trust this team with QB. People were super pumped about Matt Cassel and people still defend him to this day

[doobs_05]

If you guys honestly feel like Stevie is a troll or (circlejerk) MMH, than don't say anything to him or block him. Someone has a different opinion about something "OH NO!!!! NOT ANOTHER OPINION". Stevie blames the QB doesn't say much about the players, you guys blame the other players but really don't say much about the QB (except a select few, and by that I mean like 1 or 2)

[doobs_05]

Back to the topic, OL, WR, QB (either get that future starter coming or a back up because all the backups seem to get hurt), ILB, DBs

[Chiefs4life24]

Well the best QB we ever had Was Joe Montana sorry Len Dawson you are 2nd on my list lol maybe I'm just partial to Joe but I just think he is the best ever

[Stevie Ray]

Stevie what's you're opinion of Rodney Hudson would you resign him? I thought he played pretty damn good considering he didn't get any help

Sure, it's not my money.

[jason1981]

Sure, it's not my money.

Really? Thats all you got. No explanation if you like him or not. I guess all you care about is the qb since hes the whole team right? He seemed like he was trying to be nice to you and get your feelings in another area and all you say is sure its not my money. So im guessing that you eont like hudson either. Anyways before this year i thought hudson was on the bubble of being a bust and now they say hes one of the top. Me personally would like someone stronger at center as a mauler amd move hudson to guard.

[matthewschiefs]

If you guys honestly feel like Stevie is a troll or (circlejerk) MMH, than don't say anything to him or block him. Someone has a different opinion about something "OH NO!!!! NOT ANOTHER OPINION". Stevie blames the QB doesn't say much about the players, you guys blame the other players but really don't say much about the QB (except a select few, and by that I mean like 1 or 2)

I actually agree

just to be clear if it comes across that I'm upset with Stevie please no that's not the case. We just look and go about things differently and are willing to express our opinions. But I do respect Stevie's right to have a opinion. I'm just using my right to disagree with just how wrong he is :)

When MMH was banned I stated publicly how I felt that was wrong and would do the same thing if Stevie were banned. A few months ago when everyone was getting upset with you doobs I made a post a lot like the one you just made. Everyone has a right to their opinion and I won't fault someone for having that. Stevie has his opinion on Smith it's mine that he just dislikes Smith and won't ever be fair. We just disagree. It's fine

I just wanted to make that clear.

[Chiefs4life24]

Well for us is Left Guard or Right Guard more important I know his blind side is the left so does that apply to LG like it does with LT

[jap1]

Well for us is Left Guard or Right Guard more important I know his blind side is the left so does that apply to LG like it does with LT

A little bit. Having a really strong LG will mean the LT won't have to worry about an inside rush as much and can focus more on only covering the wide angles. I think this is part of the reason fisher sucked. Granted I'm not saying fisher was good, but he looked worse than I think he actually is because he had a revolving door next to him. If you put a solid LG next to any LT, they will look better. The same thing on the right side, but the R side is not as much of a problem because it isn't the blind side.

[Stevie Ray]

WHAT IS A QB SUPPOSE TO DO WHEN WRS DONT GET OPEN AND QUIT ON ROUTES?

The same thing every other QB does; move on to the next play.

To amplify certain instances as if it's the model, is silly and desperate. It would be like me asking: "What is a WR supposed to do when the QB misses him open downfield?"

It's not a rebuttal to the FACTS that I've laid out, nor is it a refutation of my point that Alex Smith is the source of some of the problems that people are complaining about with the Chiefs' offense. It's merely a deflection, an excuse -- a plea for me to stop blaming Alex Smith for playing like Alex Smith has always played.

[Stevie Ray]

best example, Jay Cutler. Dude had Brandon marshall, Ashlon Jeffery, and Matt Forte and couldn't get anything done.

Outstanding observation.

[Stevie Ray]

You do realize that if you just don't say anything about his post, accept his opinion and go with it, this thread wouldn't be hijacked? If everyone just saw his post and said "okay, don't agree but whatever" he probably wouldn't say anything.

To label me a troll is just a defense mechanism for those who stand in disagreement with my position. It's a means for them to disregard my points because they have no other recourse.

When you have several people trying to argue with you, it's only natural to make several responses in kind. I never understood the need for people to announce that they're ignoring someone because it's a self-refuting claim; juvenile even.

Either way, message boards would be boring if we all agreed. It's all in good fun, but inevitably, some will make it personal.

[Chiefs4life24]

I think the blame lies at the feet of all 3, it was a perfect storm of crap. The QB screwed the pooch a lot to say the least, the o-line couldn't block for crap, and the WR's was always something with that group they gave up on a play, didn't catch the dang ball when it hit em in the damn hands or something stupid. I personnaly think the o-line could've blocked way better in the run too

[Stevie Ray]

When MMH was banned I stated publicly how I felt that was wrong and would do the same thing if Stevie were banned.

But why would someone be banned for expressing their opinion? Surely this MMH guy did something more sideways than that, right?


Stevie has his opinion on Smith it's mine that he just dislikes Smith

And I'm telling you that you are 100% wrong. I have absolutely no reason to dislike Smith. Just because I'm not as optimistic about his QB abilities as you (and others) are, it doesn't mean that I dislike him. I think he's average, and I don't like the fact that the Chiefs have committed themselves to another average QB, but I don't blame Smith for that.

I'm simply defending my position on Smith, and within the scope of that, I have to express some negative thoughts about his play.

[Stevie Ray]

Your claims were also addressed as I pointed out by what the experts guys who have played the position at a high level said throughout the season. If your claims were correct surely they would have been talking about it.


I'm sorry, but color commentary and name-dropping gets you nowhere. The same people were critical of Alex Smith throughout the year for not pushing the ball up the field, for not throwing the ball into the endzone when the Chiefs got inside the 20, and for missing open receivers down the field.


The "experts" were critical of the Chiefs offense as a whole, but confirmation bias forces you to spotlight and exaggerate instances where they were critical of anyone not named Alex Smith.

[matthewschiefs]

The same thing every other QB does; move on to the next play.

To amplify certain instances as if it's the model, is silly and desperate. It would be like me asking: "What is a WR supposed to do when the QB misses him open downfield?"

It's not a rebuttal to the FACTS that I've laid out, nor is it a refutation of my point that Alex Smith is the source of some of the problems that people are complaining about with the Chiefs' offense. It's merely a deflection, an excuse -- a plea for me to stop blaming Alex Smith for playing like Alex Smith has always played.


Not one person on this board has said that Alex wasn't a part of the problem. I've said it countless times.

You seem to stick to Alex and only Alex. While many look at the problem as a whole. When your WRs are constantly not getting open and quiting on rotues dropping passes more then anyone else in the NFL their a big part of the problem. In the past 2 seasons only 1 team was in the top 5 both years in drops that says the WRS are not getting the job done. Why not face that fact?

I will use the Arizona game as an example. In that game you had the costly Kelce fumble. You had Albert wilson drop a key 3rd down pass that hit him right between the numbers that ended a drive. And yes you had Alex miss a throw that had potential to be a score. If I were to take your stance with Kelce I would pin the offensive failures across the board on him and him alone. Instead put it on the offense as a whole because lots of guys messed up the offense. Why limit it to one guy?

To state the entire facts of what went on is not a excuse or a dodge or whatever else you want to pretend it is. It's just stating what happened. I've yet to here any other situation then this topic where looking at the entire facts seems to be a bad thing.Instead of the cherry pick facts that suit one sides position. To only look at part of the story the ones that just so happen to fit your stance just isn't a fair judgment of what happened. You stance of "well every team has dropped passes" Would be like me saying "every team has qb makes mistakes" While both statement are true it doesn't take away from the fact that those things happen or make it acceptable. The fact is Alex has his faults and needs fingers pointed at him. I've said that a billion times. But he sins were not nearly as bad as the level the WRs played at. Or the O line at times. They have far more to answer for then Alex Smith

[Stevie Ray]

When factual information doesn't fit your argument you have to either discredit the person giving the information or just find someway why the information just isn't creditable instead of facing the fact itself.


1st of all, you should look up the definition of the word "fact" ............ the opinions of color commentators aren't facts.
2nd, their opinions of other players isn't information that doesn't fit my argument. It's just an opinion about those other players.


What you fail to understand (time and time and time again) is that I don't have a problem with criticisms directed at other players. They ALL deserve their share of blame. It's YOU (and others) that have a problem with those of us who are critical of Alex Smith.

[matthewschiefs]

I'm sorry, but color commentary and name-dropping gets you nowhere. The same people were critical of Alex Smith throughout the year for not pushing the ball up the field, for not throwing the ball into the endzone when the Chiefs got inside the 20, and for missing open receivers down the field.


The "experts" were critical of the Chiefs offense as a whole, but confirmation bias forces you to spotlight and exaggerate instances where they were critical of anyone not named Alex Smith.

I stated that they were critical of Smith did I not? I even gave an example like Trent Green questioning the ball placement.

The point is these guys in there jobs are suppose to explain what happened on the play. What went right or what went wrong. They were CONSTANTLY pointing to the WRs and Line far more then Smith. They were also kind of critical of Reid like in the Arizona game a game that Smith got bashed for not throwing the ball downfield. Trent Green time and time again noted that the Chiefs had 0 wrs running routed downfield. So ummmmmmmmmm who was he suppose to throw to downfield? These are all things that happened. These are guys who played the position they were doing there jobs explianing what happened on plays. Just because they were not pointing the finger of blame at the person you want do doesn't make there thoughts worthless. They know far more about the postion then anyone on this board. They happened to give us anther story then what you are. Sorry that it doesn't suit your stance and you can try to dismiss it all you want but it happened.

[Chiefs4life24]

I think Kelce sometimes tries to do too much. That fumble was a major screw up.

[matthewschiefs]

1st of all, you should look up the definition of the word "fact" ............ the opinions of color commentators aren't facts.
2nd, their opinions of other players isn't information that doesn't fit my argument. It's just an opinion about those other players.


What you fail to understand (time and time and time again) is that I don't have a problem with criticisms directed at other players. They ALL deserve their share of blame. It's YOU (and others) that have a problem with those of us who are critical of Alex Smith.

You quickly lable any other blame as an excuse or find some other reason to discredit whatever Fact is brought up like the dropped passes. That would led someone to think this statement. You took a thread by name was addressing the WR spot and made it all about Alex. You can type these words but your actions show otherwise

[Stevie Ray]

Not one person on this board has said that Alex wasn't a part of the problem. I've said it countless times.

And that's not what I'm claiming. He's on the team, so of course he is part of the problem - it goes without saying.

My point is that he's the source of some of the problems that people are complaining about (i.e. lackluster WR production, sacks, redzone deficiency, etc.)


You seem to stick to Alex and only Alex.

Because you defend him and work overtime to absolve him from blame by pointing at everyone else. We don't disagree that the supporting cast should be upgraded, but that has nothing to do with my stance on Smith.

You saying that Smith shares the blame is about as generic as it gets, and that's about as far as you will go. I think the blame goes further than that, and this is where we have a fundamental disagreement. None of it is to say that Alex Smith is the whole of the problem or the only problem, but rather to say that Alex Smith, by default of the position that he plays, is the primary source of the problem.

[doobs_05]

So do we need to make a poll with multiple answers say "Who has problems on the chiefs, check as many as fit" and see how many select all the offense and how many don't select one. Support Cast isn't special, Alex smith shouldn't get some special treatment of never taking any blame.

[matthewschiefs]

So do we need to make a poll with multiple answers say "Who has problems on the chiefs, check as many as fit" and see how many select all the offense and how many don't select one. Support Cast isn't special, Alex smith shouldn't get some special treatment of never taking any blame.

I think anyone being honest would just have to select everything. QB,O Line,WR,Playcalling all should get checks

[matthewschiefs]

And that's not what I'm claiming. He's on the team, so of course he is part of the problem - it goes without saying.

My point is that he's the source of some of the problems that people are complaining about (i.e. lackluster WR production, sacks, redzone deficiency, etc.)



Because you defend him and work overtime to absolve him from blame by pointing at everyone else. We don't disagree that the supporting cast should be upgraded, but that has nothing to do with my stance on Smith.

You saying that Smith shares the blame is about as generic as it gets, and that's about as far as you will go. I think the blame goes further than that, and this is where we have a fundamental disagreement. None of it is to say that Alex Smith is the whole of the problem or the only problem, but rather to say that Alex Smith, by default of the position that he plays, is the primary source of the problem.

If by work overtime to defend Smith you mean include the facts that you don't want to be included then guilty.

Again I've never seen any instance where including all the facts was a bad thing.

You go on about your cherry picked numbers and facts A lot that happened on anther team but deem facts that happened with this team as "excuses" sorry but I'll never go along with that.

[jason1981]

Ok i think stevie just likes to argue with what everyone says. Someone brought about hudson and its still alll about smith. And actually i would say the play callng costs us atleast two games. Wonder if anyone remember the 1st game of the year. No way we should have lost to the titans and that was poor play calling. How many times did andy reid apologize for not using charles more? When do we start holding the coaches responsible as well? I like reid as a head coach but he needs to fire himself from play calling.

[Chiefs4life24]

The play calling was terrible against the 49ers too

[jap1]

Ok i think stevie just likes to argue with what everyone says. Someone brought about hudson and its still alll about smith. And actually i would say the play callng costs us atleast two games. Wonder if anyone remember the 1st game of the year. No way we should have lost to the titans and that was poor play calling. How many times did andy reid apologize for not using charles more? When do we start holding the coaches responsible as well? I like reid as a head coach but he needs to fire himself from play calling.

Id really like to see what Pedersen can do in calling the plays. I have a feeling he wouldn't get as caught up in the moment as Reid does. I don't understand why you have an OC if he doesn't call plays.

[doobs_05]

Ok i think stevie just likes to argue with what everyone says. Someone brought about hudson and its still alll about smith. And actually i would say the play callng costs us atleast two games. Wonder if anyone remember the 1st game of the year. No way we should have lost to the titans and that was poor play calling. How many times did andy reid apologize for not using charles more? When do we start holding the coaches responsible as well? I like reid as a head coach but he needs to fire himself from play calling.

Pretty sure play calling has been called out a lot ( I know me and matthew have said this before). in like 4 of the 7 losses last season, Charles touched the ball 10 or less times. I've questioned if the play call is to throw really really short route passes and alex is suppose to throw to those routes or if alex really doesn't look down field often and just goes with the safe bet throw. The playoff game loss to indy, the playcalling was terrible after the strip sack, play to win the game, don't play not to lose the game.

[matthewschiefs]

Pretty sure play calling has been called out a lot ( I know me and matthew have said this before). in like 4 of the 7 losses last season, Charles touched the ball 10 or less times. I've questioned if the play call is to throw really really short route passes and alex is suppose to throw to those routes or if alex really doesn't look down field often and just goes with the safe bet throw. The playoff game loss to indy, the playcalling was terrible after the strip sack, play to win the game, don't play not to lose the game.

Yep there was one game I don't recall which that Charles ran the ball 7 times One of the best running backs in the NFL got the ball 7 times in a game. It was pretty inexcusable. Reid admited that he made a mistake there.

[jason1981]

Yep there was one game I don't recall which that Charles ran the ball 7 times One of the best running backs in the NFL got the ball 7 times in a game. It was pretty inexcusable. Reid admited that he made a mistake there.

You are correct that was the 1st game of the season against the titans. He only touched the ball 7 times i believe it was. I know people have called the play calling out as well. I just wanted to point it out once again cuz i think play calling hurt us more than anything one player i think.
Even the year before when against the chargers where houston and hali went out and we couldnt stop them all second half. We get down to the 3 yrd line i believe it was. So its 1st and goal with just about 2 min left in the game and reid throws it in for a td. I remember that play vividly cuz i was at that game towards that end zone and my exact reaction was i turned to my cousin and said **** we just lost the game why the **** did he not run it and kill the clock cuz we ha ent stopped them all 2nd half at all couldnt even slow them down and sire enough chargers went right down the field amd kicked a field goal i think it was. Maybe a td but i remember turning to my cousin pissed of sayimg we just lost the game cuz he threw ot on 1st and goal and got a td.
Reid sucks at playcalling and time management. We were only down by 3 so he should habe ran the ball twice if not 3 times from the 3. The worse your going to do is tie it and go to overtime. But he had no awareness that his defense hadnt been able to slow the chargers all second half cuz both houston and hali went out in the 1st half. He needs to learn the flow of the game. I could go on and on but you get my drift.

[Stevie Ray]

If by work overtime to defend Smith you mean include the facts that you don't want to be included then guilty.

Dude, you have no facts that refute my point. The only fact that you've presented is that other players made mistakes too -- as if that's even being disputed.

Without blaming others for Smith being a banal level QB, please list the facts that you claim refute it.

[matthewschiefs]

Dude, you have no facts that refute my point. The only fact that you've presented is that other players made mistakes too -- as if that's even being disputed.

Without blaming others for Smith being a banal level QB, please list the facts that you claim refute it.

It's not a hard concept. When the talent around the QB doesn't play well like ours did your QB isn't going to be lighting it up. Football is more then the QB. A QB needs the talent around him to play well just like the talent around the QB needs the QB to play well. Just because ours was the worst in the league doesn't suit your argument doesn't mean that it should be thrown out sorry.

[Stevie Ray]

It's not a hard concept. When the talent around the QB doesn't play well like ours did your QB isn't going to be lighting it up. Football is more then the QB. A QB needs the talent around him to play well just like the talent around the QB needs the QB to play well. Just because ours was the worst in the league doesn't suit your argument doesn't mean that it should be thrown out sorry.

The QB needs the supporting cast; the supporting cast needs the QB -- the thigh bone is connected to the hip bone, so on and so forth ...........we agree.

But you said that you had facts that refute my stance on Alex Smith. What you're stating is just a general fact of football. It plainly leaves open my idea that Alex Smith is the primary source of the problems. I'm asking you (for the umpteenth time) to provide the FACTS that you claim refute said idea. It's not a hard concept.

[matthewschiefs]

The QB needs the supporting cast; the supporting cast needs the QB -- the thigh bone is connected to the hip bone, so on and so forth ...........we agree.

But you said that you had facts that refute my stance on Alex Smith. What you're stating is just a general fact of football. It plainly leaves open my idea that Alex Smith is the primary source of the problems. I'm asking you (for the umpteenth time) to provide the FACTS that you claim refute said idea. It's not a hard concept.


I have as many others have pointed out addressed your claims.

The fact is this discussion will go no where because you think you can dictate what is issues should be considered and what shouldn't. What you want would be like going on trial and saying to the jury only the prosocution gets to deliver a case the defense will only make excuses. Seem fair? of course not. To go on is pointless you have made up your mind and will refuse to accept any other way of thinking or facts. So lets just agree to disagree and move on.

[Stevie Ray]

I have as many others have pointed out addressed your claims.

The fact is this discussion will go no where because you think you can dictate what is issues should be considered and what shouldn't. What you want would be like going on trial and saying to the jury only the prosocution gets to deliver a case the defense will only make excuses. Seem fair? of course not. To go on is pointless you have made up your mind and will refuse to accept any other way of thinking or facts. So lets just agree to disagree and move on.

No, ya see ..... I agreed with what you said in the previous post. Go look, it's right there. At least I've reached to your side of the isle. You, on the other hand, not so much.

But what you gave were not facts that refute my position that Alex Smith is the primary source of the problem. You're addressing my position by blaming others, and that doesn't refute my stance.

The simple FACT is ..... Alex Smith is playing like Alex Smith. In FACT, he's been slightly more productive the past 2 years in KC than he has at any other point in his career -- so obviously it's not the supporting cast that is holding him back.

More FACTS - he has always struggled to get the ball to his perimeter receivers, and he has always struggled with sacks.

These are FACTS, my friend. I understand that these FACTS are damaging to your stance, but don't blame me for that. I'm just trying to pull the wool from over your eyes. We all want the same thing, and that's for the Chiefs to be champions.

[matthewschiefs]

No, ya see ..... I agreed with what you said in the previous post. Go look, it's right there.

But it wasn't facts that refute my position that Alex Smith is the primary source of the problem. You're addressing my position by blaming others, and those aren't facts.

The simple FACT is ..... Alex Smith is playing like Alex Smith. In FACT, he's been slightly more productive the past 2 years in KC than he has at any other point in his career -- so obviously it's not the supporting cast that is holding him back.

More FACTS - he has always struggled to get the ball to his perimeter receivers, and he has always struggled with pressure and sacks.

These are FACTS, my friend. I understand that these FACTS are damaging to your stance, but don't blame me for that.

Again Facts from years ago on anther team are somehow relevent but facts on this team this this past season are not

Keep hating I'm done :lamende:

[Stevie Ray]

Again Facts from years ago on anther team are somehow relevent but facts on this team this this past season are not

Keep hating I'm done :lamende:

Thanks for the conversation. Go Chiefs!

[jason1981]

Ok this thread is just a bunch of arguing. Stevie ray who about you try and address other spots as well not just the qb. No one will be mad if there is a star qb available and the chiefs get him and replace smith. But theres no one so why go down that road. Smith can be a top 10 with the right talent around him. Hes not a brady who makes everyone around him better but a team can make smith better. Lucks amd bradys dont grow on trees. So your stuck with what you have. Im not sold on murray either. People complain about smiths arm but i heard murray has a weaker arm than smih.

[Stevie Ray]

Smith can be a top 10 with the right talent around him.

Nonsense.

But of course that just makes me a "hater" ........ the facts I've laid out mean nothing.

[Chiefs4life24]

1 thing is for sure we must retain Houston or OLB just jumped to the head of the list

[doobs_05]

Ok this thread is just a bunch of arguing. Stevie ray who about you try and address other spots as well not just the qb. No one will be mad if there is a star qb available and the chiefs get him and replace smith. But theres no one so why go down that road. Smith can be a top 10 with the right talent around him. Hes not a brady who makes everyone around him better but a team can make smith better. Lucks amd bradys dont grow on trees. So your stuck with what you have. Im not sold on murray either. People complain about smiths arm but i heard murray has a weaker arm than smih.
Do you think Alex deserves any blame and if so, which ones are they.

[Chiefs4life24]

Well 1. He doesn't go through his progressions like he should. 2. He need more subtle touch on his throws short, middle and ,deep. 3. He needs to calm down and be more patient just to name a few

[matthewschiefs]

Anther thing I would add about Smith is he can play it a bit to safe at times. I think it's a good thing that he doesn't take any unneeded risk. But he needs to be willing to take a bit more risk IMO.

[jason1981]

Smith doesnt have time to go through his progressions and when he does theres no one open. I think smiths biggest fault is he doesnt trust his recievers to make a play for the ball. For the most part i dont blame him With the wr we have. I would ust like to see what smith can do with an above average oline and some decent wr before i right him off.

[jason1981]

Do you think Alex deserves any blame and if so, which ones are they.

Yes smith deserves some blame. He has overthrown open wr but then agai. How can you blame him for that when hes never allowed to get in sync with his wr. You cant expect him to throw ot right on the money if he only tries it once a game. All qbs need rithym and timing and i cant pin all that on smith. Iv seen smith not see an open wr but then again he had to hurry cuz the line sucked. But smith has proven he can take a team all the way. He had the 49ers on the verge if not for 2 muffed punts. He was on pace for an mvp vote before his concussion. He lit the colts up in the playoff game. We have seen him do it. We need wr that he can trust.

[Stevie Ray]

Smith doesnt have time to go through his progressions and when he does theres no one open.

Watch Mor Football


I would ust like to see what smith can do with an above average oline and some decent wr before i right him off.

By this logic, it has yet to happen for Smith in 10 seasons of NFL football. Could he be the primary problem in that equation?

Nah ....... couldn't be. :pointlaugh:

[Stevie Ray]

Yes smith deserves some blame. He has overthrown open wr but then agai. How can you blame him for that when hes never allowed to get in sync with his wr.

"Blame Smith" -- but then -- "you can't blame Smith" -- all in the same breath.

I know, I know ...... I'm just a hater because I point these things out, and because I don't have blind faith in our QB, and because I don't give the QB the excuses that others do, and because I'm not blind to the facts, and because I'm not a pie-eyed optimist, and so on ......

I know, I know, I know. Please forgive me.

[Chiefs4life24]

I have said it time and time again its a combination of o-line, QB and receivers. Let's face it this offense last year was crap a lot of the time. I thought the defence was fine, we should have done more in the draft last year, Kelce and Charles can't do everything by on there own. Also what is going on with Knile its like one game he is hot and then he is nowhere to be found. I do get pissed off with Kielce sometimes cause he doesn't have his head on straight it seems like. Anthony Sherman is very underrated for a FB, Hudson is the key to this o-line he is the only one that worked his *** off. If I had to say which WR I was impressed with I would say Albert Wilson was the most impressive and he only started a hand full of games which is sad if you think about it, this kid is gonna have a bright future with the Chiefs I think.

[jason1981]

"Blame Smith" -- but then -- "you can't blame Smith" -- all in the same breath.

I know, I know ...... I'm just a hater because I point these things out, and because I don't have blind faith in our QB, and because I don't give the QB the excuses that others do, and because I'm not blind to the facts, and because I'm not a pie-eyed optimist, and so on ......

I know, I know, I know. Please forgive me.

Ok smarty pants. If you blame it all on smith then why not trade the whole team for a luck or brady amd have them play by themselves amd win is some games? Hell you think were a qb away from being a dynasty. Let just say **** it and trade all of our draft picks for a hall of famer and then we will be set. Your an idiot if you think kts all on smith. He has no oline and wr. Its playcalling, oline, wr thats cost us games. Smith cant do it all himself but he can when he has talent around him. He had the 49ers on the verge of the super bowl if not for 2 muffed punts. So to say he camt get us there is bogus. Im not saying smith can carry a team but he can help a team go all the way. Hint hint . TEAM.

Im done talking about this over and over. If you want to talk change the su ject. Everyone gets that you dont like smith. Why keep rehashing itover and over.

[Stevie Ray]

If you blame it all on smith
Except I don't, so don't straw man me. Don't you have a more honest recourse?


He has no oline and wr. Its playcalling, oline, wr thats cost us games. Smith cant do it all himself but he can when he has talent around him.
Right, it's everybody's fault EXCEPT Smith. If the O-line, WRs and playcalling are so bad, then how do you explain the fact that Smith's 2 seasons in KC have been the best of his career? Keep the excuses coming.

[Stevie Ray]

Why keep rehashing itover and over.
Because people like you keep making asinine replies to the factual information that I post.

Let's get something straight - It takes a willing partner(s) to have this discussion. If you can't handle the fact that I have an opposing view, then I would suggest that you stand clear.

I'm not the one hating. Some folks hate that I'm not as impressed with Smith as they are. That doesn't mean that I don't like the guy, or that I blame it ALL on him (or whatever other straw man arguments Smith apologists run to when they can't refute facts).

I just feel that the problems that people keep "rehashing" with the Chiefs offense (lackluster WR production, O-Line giving up too many sacks) has a lot to do with Alex Smith. I've provided plenty of facts to support that stance. Folks want to talk about these issues, but they don't want to hold Smith accountable -- they especially don't want to listen to others who do.

[Seek]

Because people like you keep making asinine replies to the factual information that I post.

Let's get something straight - It takes a willing partner(s) to have this discussion. If you can't handle the fact that I have an opposing view, then I would suggest that you stand clear.

I'm not the one hating. Some folks hate that I'm not as impressed with Smith as they are. That doesn't mean that I don't like the guy, or that I blame it ALL on him (or whatever other straw man arguments Smith apologists run to when they can't refute facts).

I just feel that the problems that people keep "rehashing" with the Chiefs offense (lackluster WR production, O-Line giving up too many sacks) has a lot to do with Alex Smith. I've provided plenty of facts to support that stance. Folks want to talk about these issues, but they don't want to hold Smith accountable -- they especially don't want to listen to others who do.

Stevie Ray, I really enjoy your factual arguments against Alex Smith. They are generally well thought out and very supportive logical arguement. The one thing I struggle with is your lack of Realistic Expectations. So yes, you believe QB is a high need and have supported why the resigning of Alex last year vs Houston was a mistake, but realistically the Chiefs are in no position to make replacing Alex Smith any type of priority. So the persistent argument that that QB is a must becomes annoying when there is clearly bigger more realistic needs that would elevate Alex's performance to a top 8 QB. One fact is that despite issues with Alex, he does win because he plays smart.

Now if you look at the play off game against the colts, he had to open things up becuase of Charlest injury and he had a good game. The Chiefs tried to build off that and he came out throwing the ball against the Titans and they failed miserable. Andy said he didn't have the team prepared and the following week they went back to conservative dump and dink and stayed competitive.

So while you do make facts, there is also facts suggesting that if he does have a better supporting cast he can be good, and realistically that is all the Chiefs can do.

[doobs_05]

Yes smith deserves some blame. He has overthrown open wr but then agai. How can you blame him for that when hes never allowed to get in sync with his wr. You cant expect him to throw ot right on the money if he only tries it once a game. All qbs need rithym and timing and i cant pin all that on smith. Iv seen smith not see an open wr but then again he had to hurry cuz the line sucked. But smith has proven he can take a team all the way. He had the 49ers on the verge if not for 2 muffed punts. He was on pace for an mvp vote before his concussion. He lit the colts up in the playoff game. We have seen him do it. We need wr that he can trust.


You blame then go back to giving him an excuse. The 2 muff punts suck but what was their 3rd down conversion rate....oh yeah, 1-13...............that is sad. Also, the 2 muff punt points on the board for NY but how many times could SF of scored if they would of converted more than 1 3RD DOWN!!! 15 Points does not guarantee a victory, passing mainly to your TE will not give you a win. Also, SF could of won it in OT

[Chiefs4life24]

Wasn't our third down percentage better his first year here

[doobs_05]

Yes smith deserves some blame. He has overthrown open wr but then agai. How can you blame him for that when hes never allowed to get in sync with his wr. You cant expect him to throw ot right on the money if he only tries it once a game. All qbs need rithym and timing and i cant pin all that on smith. Iv seen smith not see an open wr but then again he had to hurry cuz the line sucked. But smith has proven he can take a team all the way. He had the 49ers on the verge if not for 2 muffed punts. He was on pace for an mvp vote before his concussion. He lit the colts up in the playoff game. We have seen him do it. We need wr that he can trust.
In the first half......The defense and offense went away after the strip sack, even after the defense did do something, the offense could only muster up a FG

[doobs_05]

Wasn't our third down percentage better his first year here
That was in the NFC Title game, 1-13

[Stevie Ray]

So the persistent argument that that QB is a must becomes annoying when there is clearly bigger more realistic needs that would elevate Alex's performance to a top 8 QB. One fact is that despite issues with Alex, he does win because he plays smart.

I appreciate your diplomatic approach to challenging my position, but your post just ignores the facts like every other Smith apologists I've come across. What QB can you name that was mired in 9 years of mediocrity, whose game was then suddenly elevated to that of top 8 status due to a change in personnel?

You guys can keep hope alive, but even if you surround Smith with nothing but superstars, it's much more likely that their production will come down to his level rather his elevating to theirs.

Also, referencing the small sample sizes of 1 or 2 games, situations, or circumstances ..... is totally ineffective in making any counter-points. I'll address the rest of your post shortly.

[Chiefs4life24]

I've noticed some of this problem comes down to play calling also. The Titans and 49ers game are great examples

[Stevie Ray]

So while you do make facts, there is also facts suggesting that if he does have a better supporting cast he can be good, and realistically that is all the Chiefs can do.

What facts are you referring to? What facts do you have that says that the supporting cast is holding him back from being better than he's been? Again, Alex Smith has been better the past 2 seasons in KC than he has for his career. Was it the supporting cast in SF that held him back as well?

Also, when I talk about the Chiefs needs, I'm not talking from a perspective of what they can/can't realistically do. That's another conversation all together. I'm talking about what the biggest need for the team is irrespective of whether or not you or I feel that they can upgrade any particular area.

I'm not even necessarily disagreeing that Alex Smith may be our best option right now. That would be an unfortunate circumstance, but it may indeed be the reality. Even if that is the case, it shouldn't prevent us from making objective observations of his game or how he limits the impact/effectiveness of the rest of the group.

[doobs_05]

I appreciate your diplomatic approach to challenging my position, but your post just ignores the facts like every other Smith apologists I've come across. What QB can you name that was mired in 9 years of mediocrity, whose game was then suddenly elevated to that of top 8 status due to a change in personnel?

You guys can keep hope alive, but even if you surround Smith with nothing but superstars, it's much more likely that their production will come down to his level rather his elevating to theirs.

Also, referencing the small sample sizes of 1 or 2 games, situations, or circumstances ..... is totally ineffective in making any counter-points. I'll address the rest of your post shortly.

It's because of QBs like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Rex Grossman, (maybe, still young) Russell Wilson, (maybe, still young) Colin Kaep, Joe Namath (most overrated QB), Chris Chandler, Kerry Collins, Mark Rypien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rypien), Jeff Hostetler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Hostetler), Jim McMahon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_McMahon), etc. got to or won a SB means you don't need a top 10 QB, but a very efficient Defense. Since 2000, 11 QB have won the SB (12 total wins) that are not hall of famers (trent dilfer, Kurt Warner, Brett Farve, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Phil Simms, Jim Mcmahon, Jim Plunkett x2, Joe Theismann, Kenstabler) Hall of fame QBs to win 11 (23 total wins). Jim Kelly, John Elway and Fran Tarkenton are the only ones to lose to a non hall of fame QB

Also to sort of kind of answer your question about a QB being meh for 8 years and turning it around, Jim Plunkett, but that could be categorized as he got a better surrounding/better supporting cast.

[Seek]

I appreciate your diplomatic approach to challenging my position, but your post just ignores the facts like every other Smith apologists I've come across. What QB can you name that was mired in 9 years of mediocrity, whose game was then suddenly elevated to that of top 8 status due to a change in personnel?

You guys can keep hope alive, but even if you surround Smith with nothing but superstars, it's much more likely that their production will come down to his level rather his elevating to theirs.

Also, referencing the small sample sizes of 1 or 2 games, situations, or circumstances ..... is totally ineffective in making any counter-points. I'll address the rest of your post shortly.

Who said I am an apologist. You are so full of hate towards Alex that any valid argument you make even turns people who agree with you against your postion. Look I was agreeing with you, but there is nothing you, me or the Chiefs can do about the situation currently. So instead of pissing in everyone's wheaties move on because as a Chiefs fan. That is all you can do. Hope that putting better players around him helps until realistically there is something we can do about it.

As for me, I had Aaron Murrary circled on my wish list before he decided to go back for one more year. I love the fact we still got him and really hope he cold become part of the Chiefs Future as he is really the only viable option we have other than hitting on another QB with a later pick.

Fact is, he wins and it is a team sport. He is not going anywhere so all we can do is put better players around him, or at least build that foundation for another QB to take over.

[Stevie Ray]

Since 2000, 11 QB have won the SB (12 total wins) that are not hall of famers (trent dilfer, Kurt Warner, Brett Farve, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Phil Simms, Jim Mcmahon, Jim Plunkett x2, Joe Theismann, Kenstabler) Hall of fame QBs to win 11 (23 total wins). Jim Kelly, John Elway and Fran Tarkenton are the only ones to lose to a non hall of fame QB

Since 2000? Did you mean to type something else there?

I think I get the gist of your point, but HOF QBs are few and far between. A good QB will suffice, though most of the QBs that led their teams to Super Bowl titles have been HOF QBs. Even the majority of the QBs that made it to the game were considered to be at least good QBs. Relatively speaking, there aren't a whole lot of exceptions.

Besides that, the days of dominating defenses spearheading their team to success are slowly evaporating. With the rule changes favoring QBs, WRs and offensive football, and the fact that more teams have gone to more wide open, "fast break" type of schemes, it's even more imperative to have an effective passing, scoring offense.

As recent as 2000, a good defense was considered to be a unit that held teams to roughly 250 yards and 12-14 points per game. Nowadays, a good defense is considered to be a unit that can hold teams to roughly 300 yards and 17-20 points per game. The game has changed considerably (the obvious).

[Stevie Ray]

Also to sort of kind of answer your question about a QB being meh for 8 years and turning it around, Jim Plunkett, but that could be categorized as he got a better surrounding/better supporting cast.

I don't know about that. I'm 40 years old, so I came into NFL football fandom towards the end of Plunkett's career. I probably don't have the best perspective on him, particularly in his earlier years, though I'm aware of his earlier troubles with living up to the hype.

I've always thought of him as a solid QB. Not elite by any means, but adequate.

But that aside, my point was that it rarely, if ever, happens that a QB goes his whole career of being only a mediocre player, and then suddenly gains the status as one of the best due to an infusion of talent around him.

The way I see it -- good QBs will do good with the talent that is around them, average QBs will do average with the talent that is around him.

[jason1981]

Stevie i do understand your point of view but it still doesnt help your case. Why do you want to argue about something that you admitted that wasnt realistic. You admitted smith is prolly our best option so why keep arguing over it. I dont claim to be an expert on grading any player. I dont think no one on here is qualified to accurately judge a player. We all have opinions not facts. I say smith does and doesnt have blame cuz i honestly can see both sides but i believe smith has shown with the right talent around him he can go all the way. If we find a better option i wont be against it. But i know that our oline and wr sucked and thats a fact. Oline or wr cant blame anyone else for missing a block or not getting open. Qb is harder to judge cuz theres alot of different aspects and theres more players that effect a qb. No one effects the wr or oline if they miss a block or drop a ball or cant get open. A qb can only throw to a wr if he is open. He can only throw it if the line blocks. So many more things go into grading a qb than any other positions. So thats why i want to give amith a chance with talent around him and see what he can do when hes able to get a rithym down with wr. Smith has talent. He wasnt the #1 pick for no reason. We cant upgrade at qb right now so why not upgrade around him?

[matthewschiefs]

I don't know about that. I'm 40 years old, so I came into NFL football fandom towards the end of Plunkett's career. I probably don't have the best perspective on him, particularly in his earlier years, though I'm aware of his earlier troubles with living up to the hype.

I've always thought of him as a solid QB. Not elite by any means, but adequate.

But that aside, my point was that it rarely, if ever, happens that a QB goes his whole career of being only a mediocre player, and then suddenly gains the status as one of the best due to an infusion of talent around him.

The way I see it -- good QBs will do good with the talent that is around them, average QBs will do average with the talent that is around him.

A lot of the times that is true but no always.

I give you Trent Green. Would you say he's better then Peyton Manning? Of course not.I like Trent big fan still have one of his jerseys. I don't like Manning can't stand the guy. But any objective look would say that he's better then Green.

Despite that the Chiefs offense led by Green was better then the Colts with Manning. Trent had an Amazing supporting cast and they helped him raise his game. Without that talent around him does anyone really think Green would lead a better offense then Manning?

With Smith you are quick to point out the stats from years past. (yet you ignore things that happened on this team) Now I ask once again as I've been asking for nearly 3 years from Smith critics NAME ME 1 QB THAT PLAYED WELL UNDER MIKE NOLAN/SINGLTARY. I've never had an answer to this.

Once Harbaugh became the coach Smith's level of play went up greatly. In 2012 he wasn't playing poorly. He was never fully given a chance to grow in that offense. In his last start he was 18/19 232yards 3tds and despite what you might think Veron Davis was nowhere near his main target. A WR Crabtree was and Mario Manningham also had twice as many catches as Davis. Something you have critzied Smith over and over again has been not using his WRs but I invite you to go look at the game logs that season he was starting to use them more. But after he got a concussion in that last start he was never given an chance to continue to progress in that offense. Once Smith got WRs that were wroth something not Arnaz Battel types who was a starter throughout his early years with the 49ers he started using them. Go figure he got better WRs and he started getting the ball more to WRs Who would have thought

[Stevie Ray]

Who said I am an apologist.

I did, because you're making the same argument that apologists continue to make. I didn't mean anything else by it. My apologies if you were offended.

You said that the Chiefs have bigger needs, and filling those needs would elevate Smith's game to a top 8 QB. That's not agreeing with me.

My position is this -- If Alex Smith is the QB, it doesn't matter what type of talent the Chiefs add, he's still going to be Alex Smith, and Andy Reid is still going to have to find ways to win despite a lower tier passing offense. They will still struggle with QB pressure/sacks and subpar prodution from the WRs. And we'll continue to argue about how his supporting cast is inadequate.

If your point is to say that this is their best or most likely approach to 2015, then fine ....., but that's not the point that I'm arguing against. Can the Chiefs still have a winning season and perhaps make the playoffs despite the same issues offensively? Sure they can. Again, that's not a point that I dispute.

It's not hatred of Alex Smith. It's just an honest observation of what he is as a QB, and the limitations that his level of play places on his supporting cast.

As for Aaron Murray, I've never been impressed with him as a pro prospect. I think he's just another afterthought of a QB like Ricky Stanzi to get folks hopes up.

[Stevie Ray]

Fact is, he wins and it is a team sport.

Isn't that contradictory? If it's a team sport then he doesn't win, the TEAM wins. I know it's something that people tend to say about QBs, but it really doesn't fit in this case. Smith has just been fortunate the past 4 seasons to be on solid teams with good head coaches.

If there were any direct correlation to Smith and winning, then he would've been "winning" long before now. The passing offenses led by Smith the past 4 years have been ranked 29th, 23rd, 24th and 29th. Obviously his teams have won despite his production and not because of it.

I know that makes me a hater in the eyes of some, but whatever ........ it's just the facts.

[matthewschiefs]

I did, because you're making the same argument that apologists continue to make. I didn't mean anything else by it. My apologies if you were offended.
.

It's this type of stuff that makes me just laugh and have 0 sympathy when you complain about being labeled a hater.

Anyone who dares to hold anyone not named Alex Smith accountable is an apologists blind defender excuse maker ect. Ok if that's your opinion fine

Then don't whine when someone thinks that when you hold 1 person and 1 person alone accountable your a hater.

There's an old saying what's good for the goose is good for the gander

[matthewschiefs]

Isn't that contradictory? If it's a team sport then he doesn't win, the TEAM wins. I know it's something that people tend to say about QBs, but it really doesn't fit in this case. Smith has just been fortunate the past 4 seasons to be on solid teams with good head coaches.

If there were any direct correlation to Smith and winning, then he would've been "winning" long before now. The passing offenses led by Smith the past 4 years have been ranked 29th, 23rd, 24th and 29th. Obviously his teams have won despite his production and not because of it.

I know that makes me a hater in the eyes of some, but whatever ........ it's just the facts.

Isn't your stance contradictory?

You insist it's a team sport when talking about wins. Which I do happen to agree with. Part of my point has always been people get to fixed on the QB spot sometimes it's giving the QB way to much credit or in your case to much blame.

But yet you insist that it's one spot holding the offense back. Isn't offense part of the game of football which you pointed out is a TEAM sport?

[stevefuller]

I am big believer in taking the best player available. Drafting out of need is not how to go about the draft. Doresy gets that and so i hope that i dont have to read about how we needed a wideout, guard, etc etc etc....you take the bpa and if the draft works to your favor and the highest rated guy is also a team need...it makes your job as GM a heck of a lot easier

[stevefuller]

i think we need offensive line help, a safety and obviously a wide reciever

[stevefuller]

i think with all the extra picks we will have possibly 4. That would give us 11 picks and i would like us to trade up twice to get the player that could help us . The reason being is that this is not a deep draft at all. So many under classmen came out last year.

we could package our to late 3rd's and jump up to the top of the 3rd and then repeat in the fourth
moving to the top of the 3rd and fourth rounds doesnt sound like much but in a weak draft class it is huge

[Chiefs4life24]

I didn't realize Sean Smith contract is up next year we gotta deal with his sometime

[doobs_05]

[/B]Since 2000? Did you mean to type something else there?


yeah i meant 2000 and backwards.....wrote that wrong.

[Stevie Ray]

Anyone who dares to hold anyone not named Alex Smith accountable is an apologists blind defender excuse maker ect.

There's a clear difference between holding others accountable and using others as an excuse to defend Smith. You just don't get it. Say it with me ....... "We're talking about Alex Smith."

No matter how many ways I try to get you to focus on the Alex Smith aspect of the Chiefs issues, you just can't do it.

[Stevie Ray]

But yet you insist that it's one spot holding the offense back.

If you can find one post where I said that, then do it. Until then, you're strawmanning and wasting bandwidth.

[matthewschiefs]

There's a clear difference between holding others accountable and using others as an excuse to defend Smith. You just don't get it. Say it with me ....... "We're talking about Alex Smith."

No matter how many ways I try to get you to focus on the Alex Smith aspect of the Chiefs issues, you just can't do it.

Again that's the issue

When a positive is brought up "it's a team game"

When the problems are being talked about you want to talk about Alex Smith anything else Is an "excuse"

Seems like an objective outlook to me sure

[jason1981]

Again that's the issue

When a positive is brought up "it's a team game"

When the problems are being talked about you want to talk about Alex Smith anything else Is an "excuse"

Seems like an objective outlook to me sure

Sounds hypocritical to me. I dont think smith is the one that holds us back. He may have some weaknesses and issues but he fits well with reids offense. I just want to see with my own eyes what he can do with a oline and wrs at his disposal. I think its just to hard to accurately judge a qb with the oline and wr weve had. We seen him have good games with us and 49ers. If he can have some efficiency i think we can see a more efficient smith. But thats just my opinion. If i was a defense smith wouldt scare me but either would wilso. But yet he made twl superbowls. If lynch retires watch and i bet wilson struggles alot. He doesnt go throuh hjs progressions and has to lob a ball into a spot. He has to scramble to see his recievers. Taller qbs can throw it at better angels which help them protect the ball. If you put smith on the seahawks then they would be a better offense and they would have another superbowl ring. I dont trust wilson without lynch and his defense that helps keep them in games. Just my opinion.

[Chiefs4life24]

I'm starting to think we all read too much into things haha

[Stevie Ray]

I'm starting to think we all read too much into things haha

What we have is folks who can't refute facts, so their only recourse is to erect straw man arguments.

Nobody argues that it's ALL Alex Smith's fault, and nobody argues that others (players and coaches) aren't accountable -- yet these are the same flimsy claims that spring up whenever a Smith apologist doesn't have an answer to the actual argument(s) that are being made. It's like clockwork, guaranteed to happen -- not just here, but in fan circles throughout Chiefs' Kingdom.

The 29th ranked passing offense in the league, but lord forbid someone raise the argument that the problem starts with the QB.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

[matthewschiefs]

What we have is folks who can't refute facts, so their only recourse is to erect straw man arguments.

Nobody argues that it's ALL Alex Smith's fault, and nobody argues that others (players and coaches) aren't accountable -- yet these are the same flimsy claims that spring up whenever a Smith apologist doesn't have an answer to the actual argument(s) that are being made. It's like clockwork, guaranteed to happen -- not just here, but in fan circles throughout Chiefs' Kingdom.

The 29th ranked passing offense in the league, but lord forbid someone raise the argument that the problem starts with the QB.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

What we have here is people respond with Facts that refuite your opinion so you just brush them off and want them thrown out. Sorry some of us live in the real world where we do this silly little thing like looking at all the facts not the ones that Stevie Ray cherry picks.



Haters gona hate

[jason1981]

Lets all just say stevie ray is right so he will shut up already. You can tell he just likes to argue and to narrow minded in his views. Stevie ray is roght and has all the answers lets make him the new bm sl he can trade the whole team for a what he calls a good qb. Stevie your right amd we are wrong. So your point is made now can you be gone since all you talk about is smith. Im giessing you dont care about upgrading any other positions cuz it's all smiths faults right. Congrats your the gm of the year. You win. Go celebrate somewhere else.

[Stevie Ray]

Im giessing you dont care about upgrading any other positions cuz it's all smiths faults right.

LOL, like clockwork. Smh ......

[matthewschiefs]

Lets all just say stevie ray is right so he will shut up already. You can tell he just likes to argue and to narrow minded in his views. Stevie ray is roght and has all the answers lets make him the new bm sl he can trade the whole team for a what he calls a good qb. Stevie your right amd we are wrong. So your point is made now can you be gone since all you talk about is smith. Im giessing you dont care about upgrading any other positions cuz it's all smiths faults right. Congrats your the gm of the year. You win. Go celebrate somewhere else.

I don't know if that's the case or if he just like any of us has strong opinions about this team.

I'm going to take a guess here and say that Stevie is of the opinion that a team should draft a qb. And that's the answer. There's a lot of people out there with that opinion and it's fine to have it. But that also leads to holding any other QB to a unfair standard. And he's never going to give a fair outlook to the situation. To him the grass is always greener drafting a QB.

[jason1981]

LOL, like clockwork. Smh ......

I stand corrected. I finally seen you post in other threads as well. It just seemed you only liked to argue about smith. I see everyones point but i still ha e hope for smith if he gets some talent around him. Thats all it is just hope. Until i lose all hope then il be rooting for smith.

[Stevie Ray]

I'm going to take a guess here and say that Stevie is of the opinion that a team should draft a qb. And that's the answer.
It's been 32 years since the Chiefs drafted a QB in the 1st round, so yeah, I'd say there's an issue there. But, no, I don't think that the answer is just as simple you put it there.


To him the grass is always greener drafting a QB.
I think you have to take your shots when opportunities arise. The overwhelming majority of good QBs are drafted in the 1st round - which is by far the most reliable means for an organization to acquire one.

The problem with the Chiefs has been that they've always committed themselves to "spare QBs" from the bench of someone else's roster, and so drafting/developing their own QB hasn't been a priority. The Chiefs have treated QB almost as if it is a throw-away position.

Of course there are varying degrees of success with any philosophy when it comes to acquiring a QB, but when it comes to the philosophy of drafting/developing your own, you can't succeed/fail if you don't try -- and the Chiefs don't try.

But this is a different discussion all together. It has nothing to do with how good Alex Smith is/isn't. Let's get back to that. IJS

[Stevie Ray]

But that also leads to holding any other QB to a unfair standard. And he's never going to give a fair outlook to the situation.

What does that even mean? I'm saying that Alex Smith's brand of quarterbacking leads to problems with pass protection and WR production (The 2 most common gripes about the Chiefs offense). What's unfair about that? What standard are you referring to?

We all see the same results. We just arrive at differing conclusions about the source and possible solution(s). You, as well as many others, just happen to be on the wrong side of the facts and evidence this time.

[Stevie Ray]

I stand corrected. I finally seen you post in other threads as well. It just seemed you only liked to argue about smith. I see everyones point but i still ha e hope for smith if he gets some talent around him. Thats all it is just hope. Until i lose all hope then il be rooting for smith.

I want the Chiefs to win, so I'm rooting for him as well. I just think it's ludicrous to talk about the problems with the Chiefs' passing offense without the QB being front and center.

[matthewschiefs]

What does that even mean? I'm saying that Alex Smith's brand of quarterbacking leads to problems with pass protection and WR production (The 2 most common gripes about the Chiefs offense). What's unfair about that? What standard are you referring to?

We all see the same results. We just arrive at differing conclusions about the source and possible solution(s). You, as well as many others, just happen to be on the wrong side of the facts and evidence this time.

What's unfair is that you demand that throw out anything that doesn't fit your opinion. Like I stated you want to hold a trail where only the prosecution gets to give there case.

When talking about the dropped passes you either try to blame Smith (even though a dropped pass is a pass that should have been caught that wasn't but hey the throw wasn't perfect so Alex is to blame right) or take the cop out that "well everyteam has dropped pass" yes every team does. But not every team has as much as this one. Like I've pointed out only 1 team in the NFL was in the top 5 in both the seasons in drops. So no that doesn't happen to every team it's only happened to 1 in the entire NFL. You really don't think that hurts an offense. Maybe if they were actually catching the ball the passing ranking would be a tad higher? Maybe if the WRs were actually getting open and not quiting on routes the passing ranking would be higher? Instead of being willing to look at that you insist that Alex is the main source of the problems. And claim there is nothing to refute your points. There's plenty of things to refute your stance you just have to be willing to listen. Instead you just throw anything out and claim that there's nothing to refute your stance. It's easy to say your on the right side of an arguement when you do that.

Oh by the way like I've said the experts the people whos job it is to cover and no the game disagree with you. I'm sure they are just Smith apologist to

[Stevie Ray]

What's unfair is that you demand that throw out anything that doesn't fit your opinion. Like I stated you want to hold a trail where only the prosecution gets to give there case.
You're back to that again? Sheesh, dude, don't you get it? In playing to your analogy, I want to hold a trial where the accused are tried as individuals.

[Stevie Ray]

When talking about the dropped passes you either try to blame Smith (even though a dropped pass is a pass that should have been caught that wasn't but hey the throw wasn't perfect so Alex is to blame right) or take the cop out that "well everyteam has dropped pass" yes every team does. But not every team has as much as this one.

You make such a hopeless argument that I hardly know where to begin anymore. 1st, you're defending the facts that go against Alex Smith by deflecting to what others did wrong.

2nd, dropped passes are a 2 way stat - it's the number of times a ball is touched by an intended receiver that isn't caught. Partial blame falls on the QB for being late with throws, throwing into tight coverage, throwing inaccurately or all the above. Did you know that Alex Smith's teams have finished in the top 5 of dropped pass% over the past 4 years? ('11 SF 2nd highest, '12 SF 3rd highest, '13 KC 5th highest, '14 KC 2nd highest). So it's not just a KC thing.

The Chiefs had the highest drop% back in '09, but in the 3 years prior to Smith coming to town they had the 24th highest in '10, 9th highest in '11, and 12th highest in '12. Alex Smith arrives in '13, and the drop% immediately jumps up into the top 5 (picking up right where the 49ers left off). Just the facts, my friend........., but I'm sure it's all just a coincidence, right?

Lastly, we're talking about a marginal difference at best. The Chiefs had 29 dropped passes in '14 (that's 1.8 balls per game). If they dropped, say ..... 10 less passes over the course of the season, they'd go from 2nd highest% to 24th highest%. Point being that it's a negligible issue to be raising in the face of my case against Alex Smith, yet you just can't seem to wrap your brain around why that is. It's nothing more than a deflection and that's why it's disregarded (or regarded as an excuse).

[matthewschiefs]

You make such a hopeless argument that I hardly know where to begin anymore. 1st, you're defending the facts that go against Alex Smith by deflecting to what others did wrong.

2nd, dropped passes are a 2 way stat - it's the number of times a ball is touched by an intended receiver that isn't caught. Partial blame falls on the QB for being late with throws, throwing into tight coverage, throwing inaccurately or all the above. Did you know that Alex Smith's teams have finished in the top 5 of dropped pass% over the past 4 years? ('11 SF 2nd highest, '12 SF 3rd highest, '13 KC 5th highest, '14 KC 2nd highest). So it's not just a KC thing.

The Chiefs had the highest drop% back in '09, but in the 3 years prior to Smith coming to town they had the 24th highest in '10, 9th highest in '11, and 12th highest in '12. Alex Smith arrives in '13, and the drop% immediately jumps up into the top 5 (picking up right where the 49ers left off). Just the facts, my friend........., but I'm sure it's all just a coincidence, right?

Lastly, we're talking about a marginal difference at best. The Chiefs had 29 dropped passes in '14 (that's 1.8 balls per game). If they dropped, say ..... 10 less passes over the course of the season, they'd go from 2nd highest% to 24th highest%. Point being that it's a negligible issue to be raising in the face of my case against Alex Smith, yet you just can't seem to wrap your brain around why that is. It's nothing more than a deflection and that's why it's disregarded (or regarded as an excuse).


Ugh why do i even bother :lamende:

[matthewschiefs]

You're back to that again? Sheesh, dude, don't you get it? In playing to your analogy, I want to hold a trial where the accused are tried as individuals.

Yep I'm here silly me thinking when looking at something you should include all the facts instead of just the ones Steive Ray Cherry picks

If by tried as individulas you mean going on and on about the guy you hate then sure. I mean you turned a thread whos very title was addressing the WR spot into your Smith hate.

But have no fear this is my last response to you as your going on ignore I avoid anther forum because of people like you that turn everything into there whining because they don't like who the QB is and can't look at all the facts. Enjoy your temper tanturm have fun with it I've grown annoied with you

[Eydugstr]

Did you know that Alex Smith's teams have finished in the top 5 of dropped pass% over the past 4 years? ('11 SF 2nd highest, '12 SF 3rd highest, '13 KC 5th highest, '14 KC 2nd highest). So it's not just a KC thing.

His WR's weren't that great in SF, either. At one point Singletary told one of them to go into the locker room and take a shower, because it would help his team out better.


The Chiefs had the highest drop% back in '09

We had Bowe back then, too.


Alex Smith arrives in '13, and the drop% immediately jumps up into the top 5

Because we signed Donnie Avery to go alongside Bowe.


yet you just can't seem to wrap your brain around why that is. It's nothing more than a deflection and that's why it's disregarded (or regarded as an excuse).

Well, judging by the fact that the team has been cutting WR's, and interviewing WR's, TE's, and O-line...I'd say that neither Dorsey or Reid can wrap their brains around it either. So I'm cool with that. Alex Smith, barring injury, is not going anywhere.

[Chiefs4life24]

Well I thought Avery would've worked out but that was a bust

[matthewschiefs]

His WR's weren't that great in SF, either. At one point Singletary told one of them to go into the locker room and take a shower, because it would help his team out better.



We had Bowe back then, too.



Because we signed Donnie Avery to go alongside Bowe.



Well, judging by the fact that the team has been cutting WR's, and interviewing WR's, TE's, and O-line...I'd say that neither Dorsey or Reid can wrap their brains around it either. So I'm cool with that. Alex Smith, barring injury, is not going anywhere.

WHAT your including facts that Stevie Ray left out what's wrong with you :smile

Anther thing I would add is that Smith wasn't even the QB for the 49ers for half the 2012 season yet they were still up there in drops. But I'm sure that's Alex Smith's fault to.

[jason1981]

Well atleast stevie ray not the gm. Smi5h is t gokng no where. The only other choice we got is to build around him. So whats the point of arguing about smith? Its not going to change. So lets discuss things that are relevant. Lets gove smith tools to succeed with. You have to be realistic on your options amd then you Improvise, Adapt, overcome, and conquer.

[Stevie Ray]

Ugh why do i even bother :lamende:

Yeah, that dropped pass rebuttal stung you, didn't it? Your very own argument backfired on you.

When you have a factual argument that is actually pertinent, I'll consider it.

[Stevie Ray]

But have no fear this is my last response to you as your going on ignore I avoid anther forum because of people like you that turn everything into there whining because they don't like who the QB is and can't look at all the facts. Enjoy your temper tanturm have fun with it I've grown annoied with you

It's pretty clear where the hate, whining and temper tantrum is coming from. Just wave the white flag already.

You can't refute the facts, so instead of an open and honest concession, you've resorted to the ole, "I'm going to put you on ignore" pronouncement -- nan nanna boo boo!!

Smh ......how juvenile.

If you can't handle the idea that I'm blowing your pitiful arguments out of the water with FACTS, then don't engage me. It doesn't take an announcement to ignore me. Like Nike, Just Do IT!

[N TX Dave]

Well atleast stevie ray not the gm. Smi5h is t gokng no where. The only other choice we got is to build around him. So whats the point of arguing about smith? Its not going to change. So lets discuss things that are relevant. Lets gove smith tools to succeed with. You have to be realistic on your options amd then you Improvise, Adapt, overcome, and conquer.
No there is no use to give Smith the tools he is still who he is, we might as well draft 11 QB this year and if we don't get a good QB draft another 7 next year and continue to do that until we get an elite QB then worry about getting the rest of the team. We should carry about 8 QB on the active roster and just get castoffs for the other 45 positions because unless you have an elite QB you are just wasting your time and effort updating the rest of the players. By the way I changed my name to stevie and that is the way I see and anything you say I will ignore unless you admit I am 100% correct. I know everything and no one else knows anything if you don't agree with me.

That is the attitude that I put on ignore over a week ago.

[Stevie Ray]

Well atleast stevie ray not the gm. Smi5h is t gokng no where.

As if that nullifies anything I've said about him.


The only other choice we got is to build around him. So whats the point of arguing about smith? Its not going to change.

Building around Smith may indeed be the Chiefs best option at this point, but the problems with pressure/sacks and subpar WR production will continue. That's the point!


Lets gove smith tools to succeed with.

Go ahead. Smith will still be Smith. The team may in fact win despite banal level production in the passing offense, but that doesn't mean that Alex Smith's brand of quarterbacking is any less of an issue.

[Stevie Ray]

It's amazing how the conversation about Alex Smith keeps getting deflected.

1. Smith isn't going anywhere, so why bother?
2. The receivers and the o-line are to blame.
3. It's not ALL Alex Smith's fault.
4. Dwayne Bowe and Jamaal Charles shouldn't have dropped so many passes.
5. Just put better players around Smith and he'll be a top 10 QB.

..... so on and so forth ad nauseam.

It's as if we can't be friends and fellow fans if we don't recognize that the QB position is, and has been, a major issue with this organization. The Chiefs have yet again left us to place our hopes in a "spare QB" off the bench of someone else's roster -- and once again, here we are fighting about it.

Wake up, people!

[jason1981]

As if that nullifies anything I've said about him.



Building around Smith may indeed be the Chiefs best option at this point, but the problems with pressure/sacks and subpar WR production will continue. That's the point!



Go ahead. Smith will still be Smith. The team may in fact win despite banal level production in the passing offense, but that doesn't mean that Alex Smith's brand of quarterbacking is any less of an issue.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? Why do you have to defend your logic till your blue in the face? I think everyone knows your stance so why keep arguing? You might be right but with better talent around smith can only help him he better. Like i said until we get better talent around him then i still have hope cuz you cant honestly say if he had a better oline and wrs then he be a top 10 or even top 15. Look what happen with trent green with talent around him. He led the top offense in the league and i think smith could have been up there with trent with the same team. Green had priest holmes amd the best oline in the league. Thats what i would really like to have the best oline in the league again and then see what we could do. All im trying to say you dont have to argue over and over. We get your points or your stance on it. I dont mind your view of smith. Its just enough is enough. Lets debate how we can make the team better other than a new qb cuz thats not going to change is my point. The arguement is getting old and think thats what gets on everyones nerve. Its not your view point its just this arguement is never ending. I agree that you only acknowledge the facts that support your view but never inlude the facts that counter your claim. But that doesnt mean your wrong or right. This is suppose to be a debate but not to where its an arguement. I always try and see the good on everyone and i still have hope for smith. So thats my stance.

[matthewschiefs]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? Why do you have to defend your logic till your blue in the face? I think everyone knows your stance so why keep arguing? You might be right but with better talent around smith can only help him he better. Like i said until we get better talent around him then i still have hope cuz you cant honestly say if he had a better oline and wrs then he be a top 10 or even top 15. Look what happen with trent green with talent around him. He led the top offense in the league and i think smith could have been up there with trent with the same team. Green had priest holmes amd the best oline in the league. Thats what i would really like to have the best oline in the league again and then see what we could do..

You'll get nowhere I've raised this point before it will be ignored. As it has been when I raised it. Infact I made a post yesterday saying what you have and pointed out how despite what Stevie has said when Smith got better WRs in SF he started using them more then when he had Arnaz Battle as a starting WR. That entire post was ignored .


Its not your view point its just this arguement is never ending. I agree that you only acknowledge the facts that support your view but never inlude the facts that counter your claim. But that doesnt mean your wrong or right. This is suppose to be a debate but not to where its an arguement. I always try and see the good on everyone and i still have hope for smith. So thats my stance.

It's not the view point at all. It's the I'm right your wrong only use the Cherry picked topics that I want to talk about approach. For me to put someone ignore says something. I'm the guy that defended MMH. I've disagreed on many topics with a lot of different people over the years. not one of them even went on ignore. There's debating and then there's just refusing to accept any other stance then what you have Stevie uses. While at the same time claiming that you can't refute any claims based only that he has rejected the facts that go against his claims. That will never go anywhere and I wish him luck in that. Somehow I think if someone were to have the same standards for him at his job as he does for Smith he wouldn't find it a fair approach.

[Stevie Ray]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? Why do you have to defend your logic till your blue in the face? I think everyone knows your stance so why keep arguing?

Because my logic is air tight, factually supported, and I enjoy the camaraderie?


You might be right but with better talent around smith can only help him he better. Like i said until we get better talent around him then i still have hope cuz you cant honestly say if he had a better oline and wrs then he be a top 10 or even top 15.

SMH ...... *sigh*

Why keep making this asinine argument about better talent around him? He's either a good QB or he isn't.

All of this crazy talk about having the best o-line in the league is just white noise. We've had the best O-line in the league, the best RB in the league, the best TE in the league, blahzay, blahzay, blahzay .................... it's gotten us nowhere.


All im trying to say you dont have to argue over and over.

And neither do you. I get your point - you're hopeful, optimistic, and you don't want to live in a world where the QB of your favorite team isn't very good. So why keep debating it? The argument is getting old, right?

There have been no facts presented that counter my claims about Smith - only general football facts and facts that show that other players are making mistakes too. It is soooooo eerily similar to the debates that I had with people about Matt Cassel that it isn't even funny. How soon folks forget.

[Stevie Ray]

When Smith got better WRs in SF he started using them more then when he had Arnaz Battle as a starting WR. That entire post was ignored .

Man, please! Is this a joke?


It's not the view point at all. It's the I'm right your wrong only use the Cherry picked topics that I want to talk about approach.
Oh, it's definitely the view point. I'm not saying I'm right, but I can't help that the facts are on my side.


For me to put someone ignore says something.
Oh, dear, the "ignore announcement" in full effect. What are we, 5th graders here?

This is sad ........ smh.

[jason1981]

Because my logic is air tight, factually supported, and I enjoy the camaraderie?



SMH ...... *sigh*

Why keep making this asinine argument about better talent around him? He's either a good QB or he isn't.

All of this crazy talk about having the best o-line in the league is just white noise. We've had the best O-line in the league, the best RB in the league, the best TE in the league, blahzay, blahzay, blahzay .................... it's gotten us nowhere.



And neither do you. I get your point - you're hopeful, optimistic, and you don't want to live in a world where the QB of your favorite team isn't very good. So why keep debating it? The argument is getting old, right?

There have been no facts presented that counter my claims about Smith - only general football facts and facts that show that other players are making mistakes too. It is soooooo eerily similar to the debates that I had with people about Matt Cassel that it isn't even funny. How soon folks forget.

Ok your so full of poop. They have stated facts to you and you ignore the real facts cuz your so full of poop. Iv seen what you called facts but your facts are faulty as well cuz you sont take all the facts in that effect the other effects. I dont argue the facts cuz i seen from the beginning that you ignore the facts that go against you. So go eat some more poop now since thats what love to eat. Your logic is all poop and it stinks like crap.. you can stop rooting for the chiefs and go root for the redskins. Pun intended. Iv never seen anyone thats wo blinded by hate that he ca.t se the facts when they are presented to him. And no im not about to waste my time repeating what everyone else has told you. Im thinking about putting you on ig ore cuz all you are is white noise. Your irrelevant and dont make a lick of sense.

[jason1981]

Man, please! Is this a joke?


Oh, it's definitely the view point. I'm not saying I'm right, but I can't help that the facts are on my side.


Oh, dear, the "ignore announcement" in full effect. What are we, 5th graders here?

This is sad ........ smh.

Your the joke. He tolds you the facts before and you refuse to believe them and say there jokes cuz you know your full of crap. Its a fact he has gotten better when he had better wr a.d better coaches. Hes gotten better each year flr like the last 5 years i believe. Its a proven fact smith can take you to the superbowl. He has the 49ers to the nfc championship game amd the next seaso. He was in talks as the leaues mvp before he got injured. You dont take any facts serious unless it supports your theory.

[jason1981]

Because my logic is air tight, factually supported, and I enjoy the camaraderie?



SMH ...... *sigh*

Why keep making this asinine argument about better talent around him? He's either a good QB or he isn't.

All of this crazy talk about having the best o-line in the league is just white noise. We've had the best O-line in the league, the best RB in the league, the best TE in the league, blahzay, blahzay, blahzay .................... it's gotten us nowhere.



And neither do you. I get your point - you're hopeful, optimistic, and you don't want to live in a world where the QB of your favorite team isn't very good. So why keep debating it? The argument is getting old, right?

There have been no facts presented that counter my claims about Smith - only general football facts and facts that show that other players are making mistakes too. It is soooooo eerily similar to the debates that I had with people about Matt Cassel that it isn't even funny. How soon folks forget.

The crazy talk about best oline and best rb and having the top offense even supports my case. You had the top offense in the league amd that got us nowhere right? So how would a great qb changed that? We ready had the #1 offense. It was our defense that was like butter and that never forced nlt even one punt the whole game ks what caused us the game. So where did that get us no where cuz we didnt have a defense not cuz we had the #1 offense. If we had the #1 lffense that could score at will then how would a great qb changed the outcome?

[matthewschiefs]

Your the joke. He tolds you the facts before and you refuse to believe them and say there jokes cuz you know your full of crap. Its a fact he has gotten better when he had better wr a.d better coaches. Hes gotten better each year flr like the last 5 years i believe. Its a proven fact smith can take you to the superbowl. He has the 49ers to the nfc championship game amd the next seaso. He was in talks as the leaues mvp before he got injured. You dont take any facts serious unless it supports your theory.

No need to defend me Jason. I think anyone who has been on this board has seen me have this kind of debate with MANY others. So when I said it's not the view well it's not the view that I have an issue with. Most people come on here to have a discussion he came on to tell us how right he is and how smart he is. I wish him the best of luck with that.

[Stevie Ray]

Ok your so full of poop. They have stated facts to you and you ignore the real facts cuz your so full of poop.

I just told you what facts were stated - general football facts and facts that show that other players have flaws too. Nowhere in that is a fact that refutes my position on Alex Smith.


Iv seen what you called facts but your facts are faulty as well cuz you sont take all the facts in that effect the other effects.

What in the world did you just say???


I dont argue the facts cuz i seen from the beginning that you ignore the facts that go against you.

What facts are you referring to? Yes, the Chiefs had 29 dropped passes out of 485 attempts. Yes, some color commentators made mention of how unproductive the Chiefs WRs were. Yes, these things did factually happen.

But how is any of that facts against my position that Alex Smith isn't a good QB? It isn't! All it says is, "Well .... those guys over there messed up too." It's just a bunch of finger pointing when faced with the facts that the QB is a bigger problem than you ever realized.

[Stevie Ray]

So go eat some more poop now since thats what love to eat. Your logic is all poop and it stinks like crap.. you can stop rooting for the chiefs and go root for the redskins. Pun intended. Iv never seen anyone thats wo blinded by hate that he ca.t se the facts when they are presented to him. And no im not about to waste my time repeating what everyone else has told you. Im thinking about putting you on ig ore cuz all you are is white noise. Your irrelevant and dont make a lick of sense.

:funnypost:

[Stevie Ray]

Most people come on here to have a discussion he came on to tell us how right he is and how smart he is.

Those are your words, not mine ...... but I appreciate the compliment.

I don't think I'm right any more than you think you're right. All I've done is present you with facts that you were either completely unaware of, or didn't consider before taking your position.

An intellectually honest person would acknowledge those facts and perhaps re-evaluate their argument(s), as opposed to coming unglued because those facts don't fit what they already want to believe about something.

These lessons are free. You can thank me later.

[Eydugstr]

WHAT your including facts that Stevie Ray left out what's wrong with you :smile

Yeah, sorry about that. So let that be a lesson to me, young man.


Anther thing I would add is that Smith wasn't even the QB for the 49ers for half the 2012 season yet they were still up there in drops. But I'm sure that's Alex Smith's fault to.

But don't worry, according to Smith troll logic, he didn't play during the better half...

(Cue alarm sounds for incoming sarcasm)

But thanks to Stevie Ray's "facts", and a boatload of drugs and alcohol, now I'm getting it. All this time...It was Alex Smith's fault all along...Alex Smith was in the 49'er's huddle, firing up the guys with phrases like..."Guys, this first down crap is overrated. Run a vague route and then drop the ball if I pass it your way. I've got a twenty dollar bet that says we can get Coach Singletary to moon us again in the locker room - TWENTY DOLLARS. So don't let me down." It explains EVERYTHING.

[jason1981]

Those are your words, not mine ...... but I appreciate the compliment.

I don't think I'm right any more than you think you're right. All I've done is present you with facts that you were either completely unaware of, or didn't consider before taking your position.

An intellectually honest person would acknowledge those facts and perhaps re-evaluate their argument(s), as opposed to coming unglued because those facts don't fit what they already want to believe about something.

These lessons are free. You can thank me later.

You sir are a hypocrite. Your the one that cant acknowledge the facts. Take a look in the mirror. And yes you do believe your more right than us.

[Stevie Ray]

You sir are a hypocrite. Your the one that cant acknowledge the facts. Take a look in the mirror. And yes you do believe your more right than us.

LOL Oh, Jason ......... you might be the funniest poster here. I don't even think you take yourself serious - which is a good thing. Keep the laughs coming, buddy.

[jason1981]

LOL Oh, Jason ......... you might be the funniest poster here. I don't even think you take yourself serious - which is a good thing. Keep the laughs coming, buddy.

Yeah i dont really take anything serious. I dont claim be an expert like yourself. But i do know you cant trade your whole team for a qb. I only reply to you out of boredom.

[Stevie Ray]

Yeah i dont really take anything serious. I dont claim be an expert like yourself. But i do know you cant trade your whole team for a qb. I only reply to you out of boredom.

Well just keep reading, you might learn a thing or three.

[doobs_05]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iFV_n-HktXc/Uz6-b33QR-I/AAAAAAAAABg/NRYoTiKUJ3A/s1600/jackson_pop_corn.gif

Face it, we need this thread, without it, nothing would really be talked about.

so far we have people saying Alex should be front and center talked about with problems

people saying nuh uh, we have other issues

both parties agreeing that there are blames for each party but at the end they want to discuss why their opinion is better.

The whole offense is terrible, playcalling is terrible. Alex numbers with WRs are bad, he throws to RBs and TEs. We are discussing drafting 2 or 3 WR if bowe is gone (wilson...........and then.............). OL is bad, we have a guy going on to a 3rd year is is teetering the bust or meh okay line for a 1st overall pick. Alex won't lose a game for you, but he won't put the team on his back and win it for you.

[doobs_05]

Also, Any one want to post "Facts" about their opinion, quote and reply to this comment and i want to read your facts, DO NOT counter the peoples "Facts" i want to read them.

[matthewschiefs]

Face it, we need this thread, without it, nothing would really be talked about.

so far we have people saying Alex should be front and center talked about with problems

people saying nuh uh, we have other issues

both parties agreeing that there are blames for each party but at the end they want to discuss why their opinion is better.

The whole offense is terrible, playcalling is terrible. Alex numbers with WRs are bad, he throws to RBs and TEs. We are discussing drafting 2 or 3 WR if bowe is gone (wilson...........and then.............). OL is bad, we have a guy going on to a 3rd year is is teetering the bust or meh okay line for a 1st overall pick. Alex won't lose a game for you, but he won't put the team on his back and win it for you.

I will agree that this is in some ways good for discussion. It seems to be the topic every offseason and does keep the board alive.

But Stevies approach is just frustrating.

Your take I can very much respect. Instead of singling out someone you can look at the picture as a whole.

[matthewschiefs]

Also, Any one want to post "Facts" about their opinion, quote and reply to this comment and i want to read your facts, DO NOT counter the peoples "Facts" i want to read them.

Here's a fact addressing the statments that Alex does not use his WRs I will be intrested to here a response other then saying I'm joking.

The 49ers in Smith's last year made some big upgrades at WR.. Getting Randy Moss to go with Crabtree. During Smith's 8 starts that year when he had a very solid WR core his main guys in 7 out of 8 games were WRS not a rb or TE. 1 game Gore was his main receiver.

So seeing that can anyone discount that if the Chiefs were to upgrade there WR spot he would use the WRs more? What do you think

[doobs_05]

Here's a fact addressing the statments that Alex does not use his WRs I will be intrested to here a response other then saying I'm joking.

The 49ers in Smith's last year made some big upgrades at WR.. Getting Randy Moss to go with Crabtree. During Smith's 8 starts that year when he had a very solid WR core his main guys in 7 out of 8 games were WRS not a rb or TE. 1 game Gore was his main receiver.

So seeing that can anyone discount that if the Chiefs were to upgrade there WR spot he would use the WRs more? What do you think

I would say Randy was on the down hill (since the 18-1 season he went downhill, plus a lot of people would say he was only good because of Brady, but that's a bunch of BS imo). A lot of people say Crabs didn't become the threat until Kaep came in to play (going to do some digging on stats) 874 yards 4 TDs for Crab in the first harbaugh year, 2012, 1 100 yard game with Alex, 3 with kaep, weeks 1-8 3 TDS, the rest 6 TDS.........gotta go tho, lunch time.

[matthewschiefs]

I would say Randy was on the down hill (since the 18-1 season he went downhill, plus a lot of people would say he was only good because of Brady, but that's a bunch of BS imo). A lot of people say Crabs didn't become the threat until Kaep came in to play (going to do some digging on stats) 874 yards 4 TDs for Crab in the first harbaugh year, 2012, 1 100 yard game with Alex, 3 with kaep, weeks 1-8 3 TDS, the rest 6 TDS.........gotta go tho, lunch time.

I would agree about Moss being on the downside of his career for sure But he was still someone the Defense had to respect I would say.

I don't mean to Imply that the WRs were lighting it up but only that he was going to them more then his TEs and RBs when he had a solid core. That's something that he has been criticized for. I think seeing that he got better at going to WRs when he had a decent core with the 49ers he could do the same in KC. We won't know until we give him a shot something this team looks to finally be doing

[doobs_05]

I would agree about Moss being on the downside of his career for sure But he was still someone the Defense had to respect I would say.

I don't mean to Imply that the WRs were lighting it up but only that he was going to them more then his TEs and RBs when he had a solid core. That's something that he has been criticized for. I think seeing that he got better at going to WRs when he had a decent core with the 49ers he could do the same in KC. We won't know until we give him a shot something this team looks to finally be doing

And if we get those WR, Alex HAS TO take those chances of letting his WR make the play. Dez and Megatron are not just great because they get separation, they're great because when the QB makes them go for the ball, they make the play.

[matthewschiefs]

And if we get those WR, Alex HAS TO take those chances of letting his WR make the play. Dez and Megatron are not just great because they get separation, they're great because when the QB makes them go for the ball, they make the play.

Yep I would agree with you 100% there.

I think it's in this thread but it's somewhere last week I posted that Alex has to be a bit more aggersive. I like that he isn't going to gamble a lot and risk a lot of turnovers but he can tend to play it to safe sometimes.

[jap1]

Yep I would agree with you 100% there.

I think it's in this thread but it's somewhere last week I posted that Alex has to be a bit more aggersive. I like that he isn't going to gamble a lot and risk a lot of turnovers but he can tend to play it to safe sometimes.

I think he started that season with that mentality, but got burned by Avery's lack of ability that he (and likely Reid) pulled the reins back significantly. I do wish he had trusted Bowe a little more often in the redzone when he is covered.

[doobs_05]

Yep I would agree with you 100% there.

I think it's in this thread but it's somewhere last week I posted that Alex has to be a bit more aggersive. I like that he isn't going to gamble a lot and risk a lot of turnovers but he can tend to play it to safe sometimes.

And that is what infuriates me with him. 3rd and long, need to get that first, 2 yard dump for 1 yard. The one pass to Bowe in the endzone was bad placement (imo), you gotta throw high or away from the defender so he doesn't make a play (and he made the play). It's hard for someone who was fooled by the Cassel, Alex has some of the same tendency as him. In game that is all about throwing the ball down field because the DBs can barely cover anymore and the QB can only get about 200 yards is not good, but a win is a win but when a loss happens..........

[doobs_05]

Also i just want to say i support cutting bowe because of his contract, not because of his play.

[matthewschiefs]

Also i just want to say i support cutting bowe because of his contract, not because of his play.

I would say that if his played was at the level of which his pay is many would be more willing to live with it.

Bowe has since he got to KC had times where you just don't know he's on the field. He just won't be a factor

Then there are times that he WOWS you. Like HOW DID HE CATCH THAT. He's a lot better then some on here want to give him credit for he's just highly inconsistent. IMO

The throw you mentioned pretty sure the Steelers game right? If so what got me is while yes the ball placement could have been better he's still made A LOT more tougher catches then that one even with a defender on him. I noted that at the time and gave the catch he made against the Colts for a TD a few years ago as an example. That throw was a bit overthrown and there was a defender there on that one to (he actually got called for PI) Yet Bowe WENT AND MADE THE PLAY. he could have done the same there but didn't. I've said before Bowe has GREAT talent in him. There's just something in him that stops him from being GREAT at times. He's dropped some real easy catches at times I just wish someone on the coaching staff could figure out what it is that is stopping him. But that's just my thoughts

[doobs_05]

I would say that if his played was at the level of which his pay is many would be more willing to live with it.

Bowe has since he got to KC had times where you just don't know he's on the field. He just won't be a factor

Then there are times that he WOWS you. Like HOW DID HE CATCH THAT. He's a lot better then some on here want to give him credit for he's just highly inconsistent. IMO

The throw you mentioned pretty sure the Steelers game right? If so what got me is while yes the ball placement could have been better he's still made A LOT more tougher catches then that one even with a defender on him. I noted that at the time and gave the catch he made against the Colts for a TD a few years ago as an example. That throw was a bit overthrown and there was a defender there on that one to (he actually got called for PI) Yet Bowe WENT AND MADE THE PLAY. he could have done the same there but didn't. I've said before Bowe has GREAT talent in him. There's just something in him that stops him from being GREAT at times. He's dropped some real easy catches at times I just wish someone on the coaching staff could figure out what it is that is stopping him. But that's just my thoughts

Isn't he considered a great blocking WR?

[matthewschiefs]

Isn't he considered a great blocking WR?

I would say hes a great blocking WR yes. He's actually at times a huge help in the Running game

[doobs_05]

I would say hes a great blocking WR yes. He's actually at times a huge help in the Running game

That's another reason i kind of don't want him to go and hope he restructures, hard to find those types of WR

[matthewschiefs]

That's another reason i kind of don't want him to go and hope he restructures, hard to find those types of WR

I agree

To be clear I'm not one in the Cut Bowe camp. I just think that he needs help at WR. Get anther WR that commands the respect of a defense and that might help Bowe out A LOT. That's all I really want them to do.

I think that they should try EVERYTHING possible to keep Bowe. But if he's not willing to rework his deal then I would have to say cutting him might be the best thing to do .

[jap1]

That's another reason i kind of don't want him to go and hope he restructures, hard to find those types of WR

Especially hard to find a rookie WR with that trait (its one reason I am really high on DAT, he went looking for people to block). A lot of rookies are trying to get noticed with receiving, and dont care much about doing the boring manual labor of blocking. One bonus to keeping Bowe (at preferably a lower salary) would be he could mentor the younger WRs in blocking technique and effort.

[Stevie Ray]

Face it, we need this thread, without it, nothing would really be talked about.

Bingo, amigo!

There really is no more intriguing topic surrounding this team right now than the Alex Smith debate. I feel like some of us don't know how to NOT take disagreements personally.

I have no less than 3 people threatening to put me on ignore -- not because I'm cursing them or talking about their mothers, but because I don't agree with their point of view on this particular topic. LOL what a tragedy, right?

If I'm going to be labeled a hater, then I will cherish playing that role even though I know it's bull. But I get it, and I'm fine with it. Bring it on. :bananen_smilies046:

[Stevie Ray]

Also, Any one want to post "Facts" about their opinion, quote and reply to this comment and i want to read your facts, DO NOT counter the peoples "Facts" i want to read them.

10 facts about Alex Smith, and/or Alex Smith led offenses:

1. Never produced a 1,000 yard receiver.
2. Never thrown more than 10 TD passes to any receiving group in a season.
3. Only once in 9 NFL seasons has Smith thrown 5 TDs to any individual receiver (Bowe in '13 was the 1st time that ever happened).
4. Has never led a passing offense ranked any higher than 24th.
5. Smith has taken 40(+) sacks per 16 starts in every season of his career except 1.
6. The one season that he missed in SF ('08) turned out to be the most productive season for any 49ers receiver during the Smith era until Crabtree in '12.
7. Crabtree in '12 was more productive (more receptions, more yards, more TDs) in 7 starts with Kaepernick than he was in 9 starts with Smith.
8. Smith has made 10 (or more) starts in 6 of his 9 NFL seasons and has a QBR under 50 in all 6 (50 is the dead average mark).
9. In 9 NFL seasons, Smith has thrown 20(+) TDs only once.
10. Smith led offenses have been top 5 in dropped pass% the past 4 seasons ('11 & '12 in SF, '13 & '14 in KC).

Just the facts.

Alex Smith's entire career has been defined by ineffective passing offenses, lackluster WR production and struggles with pass protection. It shouldn't be any surprise to see the exact same things happening in KC, but some are still baffled.

Here's the thing - in the NFL, QBs generally don't get a lot of time in the pocket to make decisions, and receivers generally don't get a lot of separation. If you're a QB that needs either or both of those things in order to be an effective NFL passer, you're going to be average at best.

I'll give Alex Smith credit for being smart enough to understand his own limitations, and playing it safe in the face of this realization. It has at least salvaged a career as a starting QB that was destined to be spent as a back-up. The drawback is that his conservative nature limits the potential of the offense and the impact/effectiveness of the players around him.

[Stevie Ray]

But Stevies approach is just frustrating.

Why, because I speak facts and won't let you get away with making lame excuses.

Throughout our entire interaction I've nearly begged you to refute my position with facts about Alex Smith. You did nothing but give me facts about other players, and subsequently tried to present those as excuses to defend Smith. No matter how hard I tried, you still couldn't comprehend.

Your only recourse was to label me a hater because it made it easier for you to disregard the factual arguments that I presented. It's both disingenuous and sophomoric.

[Stevie Ray]

Here's a fact addressing the statments that Alex does not use his WRs I will be intrested to here a response other then saying I'm joking. The 49ers in Smith's last year made some big upgrades at WR.. Getting Randy Moss to go with Crabtree.

Randy Moss wasn't the primary starter opposite Crabtree in '12, it was Mario Manningham. '12 was the final year of Moss' career and he was but a shell of him former self -- perhaps age, lack of motivation, bad fit in the system, etc .... played a part in his putrid contribution. I don't know.

[Chiefs4life24]

Has anyone noticed with the exception of Bowie and Wilson none of these young receivers want anything to do with blocking. I don't know if its just lazyness or they don't understand I don't get what the deal is

[Stevie Ray]

During Smith's 8 starts that year when he had a very solid WR core his main guys in 7 out of 8 games were WRS not a rb or TE. 1 game Gore was his main receiver. So seeing that can anyone discount that if the Chiefs were to upgrade there WR spot he would use the WRs more? What do you think

Actually, Smith started 9 games in '12, and left the 9th game with an injury. He would miss only game #10 due to injury, and though healthy for game #11 and beyond, Harbaugh decided Kaepernick was the better option.

But we'll go with the 8 starts for the sake of discussion.

In those 8 starts for Smith, Randy Moss totaled 13 rec. 229 yds. 2 TDs -- Crabtree totaled 39 rec. 340 yds. 3 TDs -- Manningham totaled 28 rec. 256 yds. 1 TD

You can double those numbers if you'd like to get a ballpark figure on season totals. I'll leave that up to the reader. Either way, the facts don't support your assertion that an upgrade at WR made a consequential difference in Smith's play.

Also, your claim that his main targets were WRs, as opposed to TEs/RBs in 7 of 8 starts is factually inaccurate as well. Only in 5 of 8 starts did WRs have more receptions than TEs/RBs -- 2 times the TEs/RBs had more receptions -- once (week 2) they tied with 10 receptions each.

Just the facts.

[jason1981]

Why, because I speak facts and won't let you get away with making lame excuses.

Throughout our entire interaction I've nearly begged you to refute my position with facts about Alex Smith. You did nothing but give me facts about other players, and subsequently tried to present those as excuses to defend Smith. No matter how hard I tried, you still couldn't comprehend.

Your only recourse was to label me a hater because it made it easier for you to disregard the factual arguments that I presented. It's both disingenuous and sophomoric.

Nonots frustrating cuz were debating over something that is a moot point. Why cant we debate over upgrading in other areas cuz we know smith aint going anywhere. I do see your logic and you might be right but until i see smith with a better oline and wr than i still have hope for him. I do think smith can get is to a superbowl with the right team. He wont carry us there but as a team he can help. Manning couldnt have done anything with these wr either. So until we have a better option than smith than im going to suppoert him and want to build around him. Then when we do draft a qb he will have a team in place for him like ben roslinburger had or even like tom brady.

[Stevie Ray]

Just for the heck of it, I'll post the 49ers WR production in '12 with Kaepernick.

Kaepernick made 7 regular season starts in place of Smith in '12, Randy Moss totaled 13 rec. 180 yds. 1 TD -- Crabtree totaled 41 rec. 585 yds. 5 TDs in those 7 starts. (Manningham only made 2 starts/4 games during that span).

If you extend Kaepernick's season out to 8 starts (including round 1 of their playoffs) to make it equal to Smith's starts, Randy Moss totaled 18 rec. 205 yds. 1 TD -- Crabtree totaled 50 rec. 704 yds. 7 TDs

So not only did the upgrade in WRs not make much of a difference in Smith's play, but the production of the WRs immediately got better once Kaepernick was inserted as the starter. Need I say more?

Like I said, just the facts.

[Stevie Ray]

More fun with facts: This one is in regards to the relationship (on field) between Smith and WRs - particularly the #1 WR and his targets over the past 4 years.

In 2011, Smith targeted Michael Crabtree about 7.5 times per start.
In 2012, Michael Crabtree was targeted 57 times in 8 starts with Smith (7.1 times per start), and 63 times in Kaepernick's 7 starts (9 targets per start).

In the 4 years prior to Smith coming to KC ('09-'12), Dwayne Bowe was targeted about 9.2 times per start.
In the 2 years with Smith in KC, Bowe has been targeted about 6.5 times per start. That's roughly 50 less targets per season.

So not only does Smith's history show a knack for under-utilizing the perimeter passing game and his #1 receiver, but there's also 2 separate instances where other QBs have produced more with the same receivers.

Smith inherited what was widely considered to be a pro bowl caliber receiver in Bowe ..... and he's instantly become an afterthought.

Again, just the facts. You be the judge.

[Stevie Ray]

Nonots frustrating cuz were debating over something that is a moot point. Why cant we debate over upgrading in other areas cuz we know smith aint going anywhere. I do see your logic and you might be right but until i see smith with a better oline and wr than i still have hope for him. I do think smith can get is to a superbowl with the right team. He wont carry us there but as a team he can help. Manning couldnt have done anything with these wr either. So until we have a better option than smith than im going to suppoert him and want to build around him. Then when we do draft a qb he will have a team in place for him like ben roslinburger had or even like tom brady.

Again, your post just ignores the facts that I've presented, but nevermind any of that ........

As for debating about upgrading the team around Smith - I don't think anyone is opposed to that idea. There really is no debate on that front.

[jason1981]

Again, your post just ignores the facts that I've presented, but nevermind any of that ........

As for debating about upgrading the team around Smith - I don't think anyone is opposed to that idea. There really is no debate on that front.

I seen the facts that you just posted. Seems like you did your homework. You make a good case and see your point. So since you agree athat we can only upgrade around smith. How would you go about doing that? Thats what im more interested in. Just not something that is irrelevant.

[Chiefs4life24]

Do you think its possible for a team to have 3 or more top 15 receivers?????

[jap1]

Has anyone noticed with the exception of Bowie and Wilson none of these young receivers want anything to do with blocking. I don't know if its just lazyness or they don't understand I don't get what the deal is
DAT made some good blocks downfield.

[Stevie Ray]

I seen the facts that you just posted. Seems like you did your homework. You make a good case and see your point. So since you agree athat we can only upgrade around smith. How would you go about doing that? Thats what im more interested in. Just not something that is irrelevant.

I'd 1st look to improve at LT. Maybe Fisher takes a step forward this year, maybe Stephenson should be the starting LT, or maybe the Chiefs need to bring a better LT in. Either way, that would be the top priority in upgrading the supporting cast.

They'll definitely need to add a couple more WRs - at least one guy that can stretch the field. I'd also like to see them add another athletic, pass catching TE, but that's without really knowing how confident they are in Harris. I feel like the best way to supplement Smith's abilities in the passing game is to max out on TE depth.

By any means, I think the Chiefs are going to have to win on the strength of their RBs, TEs, defense and special teams. I suspect that more will be done to strengthen the defense this off-season than the offense.

[jason1981]

I'd 1st look to improve at LT. Maybe Fisher takes a step forward this year, maybe Stephenson should be the starting LT, or maybe the Chiefs need to bring a better LT in. Either way, that would be the top priority in upgrading the supporting cast.

They'll definitely need to add a couple more WRs - at least one guy that can stretch the field. I'd also like to see them add another athletic, pass catching TE, but that's without really knowing how confident they are in Harris. I feel like the best way to supplement Smith's abilities in the passing game is to max out on TE depth.

By any means, I think the Chiefs are going to have to win on the strength of their RBs, TEs, defense and special teams. I suspect that more will be done to strengthen the defense this off-season than the offense.

Just to add to yours. You left out playcalling. That needs an upgrade as well. Also i think we need guards more than a tackle. I seen alot more pressure up the middle than the edge. Atleast thats what i noticed. I think it would should move hudson to guard and draft a center. On defense i think we need secondary help and then mlb or a pass rushing 3-4 end.

[doobs_05]

Actually, Smith started 9 games in '12, and left the 9th game with an injury. He would miss only game #10 due to injury, and though healthy for game #11 and beyond, Harbaugh decided Kaepernick was the better option.



The way everything fell apart for SF, i wonder if the FO wanted Kaep over Alex and Harbaugh had no choice but wanted to stick with smith

[Pro_Angler]

Top 6 Needs

1: WR
2: RT
3: Right Guard and Left Guard
4: ILB
5: CB- Sean Smith needs help and Phillip needs to play more, I've always been a believer in having 2 Corners
6- DE- need 2 really one for Devito's spot and depth

These are in no particular order either


yes i agree

[Stevie Ray]

The way everything fell apart for SF, i wonder if the FO wanted Kaep over Alex and Harbaugh had no choice but wanted to stick with smith

Could be, but head coaches generally have fully autonomy, contractually, over who plays and who doesn't.

[jason1981]

Could be, but head coaches generally have fully autonomy, contractually, over who plays and who doesn't.

Hasnt kap regressed since smith left the 49ers? I think defenses just have figured out the option and how to contain him. I think hes only been effective if can use his legs but if the teams contain him he struggles as a pocket passer. Jist what iv understood from reading about him. I dont watch him alot so just going by what i read on internet.

[doobs_05]

Hasnt kap regressed since smith left the 49ers? I think defenses just have figured out the option and how to contain him. I think hes only been effective if can use his legs but if the teams contain him he struggles as a pocket passer. Jist what iv understood from reading about him. I dont watch him alot so just going by what i read on internet.

I think the whole team regressed. Just looked on PFR and his numbers didn't take huge hits http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KaepCo00.htm

[doobs_05]

Could be, but head coaches generally have fully autonomy, contractually, over who plays and who doesn't.

Eh, not to sure, sounded like the owner and GM were really screwing things up in SF. Also Bills with flutie and johnson, pretty sure wade phillip wanted flutie but was over ruled.

[Stevie Ray]

Eh, not to sure, sounded like the owner and GM were really screwing things up in SF. Also Bills with flutie and johnson, pretty sure wade phillip wanted flutie but was over ruled.

There's plenty of other things for front offices to screw up than what happens on the field.

Also, it's because of situations that have taken place in the past that head coaches in today's game make sure that full control over gameday decisions is written into their contracts.

I can remember when Marty and Carl Peterson were going through a similar situation. Peterson demanded that Greg Hill be the starting RB, and Marty wanted Marcus Allen to be the feature back. Peterson having the power of President/CEO/GM won out contractually, but Marty still got his way -- he would start Greg Hill, and then immediately insert Marcus Allen; sometimes on the very next play, but no later than the next series.

I'm fairly confident that the days of the front office having any control over gameday decisions are at least a decade behind us, but who knows??

[Stevie Ray]

Hasnt kap regressed since smith left the 49ers? I think defenses just have figured out the option and how to contain him. I think hes only been effective if can use his legs but if the teams contain him he struggles as a pocket passer.

I think he's pretty much the same. Statistically, his numbers are virtually the same ..... but like the Chiefs, the 49ers TEAM took a step back in 2014. Don't forget that the 49ers made it to the NFC championship game last season though ('13).

To answer your question, no, I don't think he's regressed. Personally, I never thought Kaepernick was very good to begin with. He's toolsy - good size, strong arm, athletic, but his pocket skills leave a lot to be desired. To me, he's just a bigger, faster, more athletic version of Alex Smith with a stronger throwing arm (figuratively speaking).

[Chiefs4life24]

Isn't the option about the easiest offence to figure out anyway??

[jason1981]

I think he's pretty much the same. Statistically, his numbers are virtually the same ..... but like the Chiefs, the 49ers TEAM took a step back in 2014. Don't forget that the 49ers made it to the NFC championship game last season though ('13).

To answer your question, no, I don't think he's regressed. Personally, I never thought Kaepernick was very good to begin with. He's toolsy - good size, strong arm, athletic, but his pocket skills leave a lot to be desired. To me, he's just a bigger, faster, more athletic version of Alex Smith with a stronger throwing arm (figuratively speaking).

You make a good point. All this qb talk makes me want to take the qb mariota however you spell his name at 18 if he falls to us. But then oiroline and lack of wr will get him hurt amd then could be another david carr. Houston ruined him.

[Stevie Ray]

You make a good point. All this qb talk makes me want to take the qb mariota however you spell his name at 18 if he falls to us. But then oiroline and lack of wr will get him hurt amd then could be another david carr. Houston ruined him.

As much as I advocate the Chiefs drafting a QB early in the draft at some point, this aint the year and Mariota aint the guy. Unless by some miracle Jameis Winston is available at #18, or Mariota is available when the Chiefs select in the 2nd round (neither of which is very likely), there are better players and better usage of their early round picks.

Otherwise, Sean Manion in the 3rd-4th round would be about as high a draft pick I'd be willing to risk on this class of QBs.