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rbedgood
10-31-2007, 12:50 AM
I thought you guys would appreciate that one of the Veteran committee nominees was a former KC Chief. As for the other new nominees the only one I think deserves any merit is Carter, and I don't think he belongs...




http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3087284

CANTON, Ohio -- Cornerback Darrell Green (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=931) and receivers Cris Carter (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=82) and Herman Moore (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=1015) were among 124 modern-era players, coaches, and contributors on the preliminary list of nominees for the Pro Football Hall of Fame's Class of 2008.
Other first-year eligibles are running back Eric Metcalf (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=638); offensive tackles Tony Boselli (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3136), Lomas Brown (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=1836) and Richmond Webb (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=1338); and linebackers Levon Kirkland (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=2207) and Hardy Nickerson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=1570).
Previously, the senior committee nominated Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas. Goldberg, a multipurpose back, was a two-way star with the Chicago Cardinals from 1939-1943 and following World War II from 1946-48. Thomas, an all-league cornerback, starred for 13 seasons (1966-1978) for the Kansas City Chiefs (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=kan).
Voters will choose 25 candidates from that group as semifinalists; that list will be announced late in November. From there, the list will be pared to 15 finalists, who will be considered at the selection committee's meetings during Super Bowl week.
At least four and no more than seven nominees will be elected on the day before the Super Bowl.
To be considered for Hall of Fame election, a player or coach must have been retired at least five years. A contributor -- someone who has made outstanding career contributions to pro football in capacities other than playing or coaching -- may still be active in his pro football career.
Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

hermhater
10-31-2007, 12:56 AM
I thought you guys would appreciate that one of the Veteran committee nominees was a former KC Chief. As for the other new nominees the only one I think deserves any merit is Carter, and I don't think he belongs...
To be considered for Hall of Fame election, a player or coach must have been retired at least five years. A contributor -- someone who has made outstanding career contributions to pro football in capacities other than playing or coaching -- may still be active in his pro football career.

That is what I found interesting about the article.

Has this ever happened?

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 01:15 AM
To be considered for Hall of Fame election, a player or coach must have been retired at least five years. A contributor -- someone who has made outstanding career contributions to pro football in capacities other than playing or coaching -- may still be active in his pro football career.

That is what I found interesting about the article.

Has this ever happened?

Dan Rooney...

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 01:26 AM
oh...and Wellington Mara (HOF Class of 1997)

chief31
10-31-2007, 01:29 AM
I refuse to recognize the NFLHOF until Atr Monk is inducted.:mob: :mob: :mob:

hermhater
10-31-2007, 01:40 AM
I refuse to recognize the NFLHOF until Atr Monk is inducted.:mob: :mob: :mob:

Why isn't he in there?

WTF?

:sign0153:

McLovin
10-31-2007, 01:40 AM
How could we leave out Lamar Hunt Class of 72.

Guru
10-31-2007, 01:42 AM
I refuse to recognize the NFLHOF until Atr Monk is inducted.:mob: :mob: :mob:

It is just criminal how they are leaving him out.:mob:

hermhater
10-31-2007, 01:48 AM
How could we leave out Lamar Hunt Class of 72.

Elaborate?

McLovin
10-31-2007, 01:59 AM
To be considered for Hall of Fame election, a player or coach must have been retired at least five years. A contributor -- someone who has made outstanding career contributions to pro football in capacities other than playing or coaching -- may still be active in his pro football career.

That is what I found interesting about the article.

Has this ever happened?
Lamar Hunt was inducted class of 1972.
He was involved in some form with the Chiefs till almost the day he died. I saw Dan Rooney and Wellington Mara mentioned thought I would throw in Lamar Hunt.

hermhater
10-31-2007, 02:03 AM
To be considered for Hall of Fame election, a player or coach must have been retired at least five years. A contributor -- someone who has made outstanding career contributions to pro football in capacities other than playing or coaching -- may still be active in his pro football career.

That is what I found interesting about the article.

Has this ever happened?


Lamar Hunt was inducted class of 1972.
He was involved in some form with the Chiefs till almost the day he died. I saw Dan Rooney and Wellington Mara mentioned thought I would throw in Lamar Hunt.

The last part of the article is saying that an active player (don't think Lamar played did he?) could be inducted during his playing years.

Lamare has done more than ANYONE for the NFL in my opinion by starting the AFL! Chiefs are the premiere organization in the NFL and need to start acting like it.

I want to plow down every opponent in our way.

No mercy.

Patriots style.

McLovin
10-31-2007, 02:10 AM
Nah it says other then playing or coaching, that is the way I read it, therefore meaning an Owner or an announcer, maybe a ref. Im sure there are some I am missing but this is how I read it.

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 02:14 AM
I refuse to recognize the NFLHOF until Atr Monk is inducted.:mob: :mob: :mob:

Sorry Chief31...but I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Art Monk was a very good football player...and thus he had a 15 year career...however during that 15 year career he was largely a possession receiver. He averaged only 4-5 TDs per year, and only put up big yardage in a couple years.

He had great hands, but in an era of flashy and incredible receivers, he didn't stand out.

1) He never had double-digit TDs (career high was 8 in 1991)...

2) He only was in the top 10 for yardage 3 times (1984, 1985 and 1989) and never better than 3rd...

3) He did lead the league in receptions in 1985, but only had 2 TDs...

He was a good player...but not a Hall of Famer...there are just too many other WRs in his era that had more TDs, and yardage...

hermhater
10-31-2007, 02:19 AM
Nah it says other then playing or coaching, that is the way I read it, therefore meaning an Owner or an announcer, maybe a ref. Im sure there are some I am missing but this is how I read it.

You're right it says a contributor, not player.

Good call!

:sign0098:

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 02:21 AM
Contributors are usually owners, but can also be a GM, a media member, a ref (can't imagine why), etc. Anyone for voting in Fatlock...haha!!!

McLovin
10-31-2007, 02:21 AM
Personally I think DT should be inducted, should have already, but being in the middle us and not a state called Texas the HOF votes just dont seem to be going his way.

On this I am a HOMER, I don't think anyone is more deserving at the present time then Derrick. Now im gonna hold my breath till he gets in. PFFFFFSSTTTTTTTTTTTTT.
Ok so maybe that didnt work. He really should be in though.

McLovin
10-31-2007, 02:22 AM
Contributors are usually owners, but can also be a GM, a media member, a ref (can't imagine why), etc. Anyone for voting in Fatlock...haha!!!

If it means he will retire and quit writing he gets my vote.

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 02:23 AM
If it means he will retire and quit writing he gets my vote.

LMAO...rep added.

hermhater
10-31-2007, 02:23 AM
Sorry Chief31...but I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Art Monk was a very good football player...and thus he had a 15 year career...however during that 15 year career he was largely a possession receiver. He averaged only 4-5 TDs per year, and only put up big yardage in a couple years.

He had great hands, but in an era of flashy and incredible receivers, he didn't stand out.

1) He never had double-digit TDs (career high was 8 in 1991)...

2) He only was in the top 10 for yardage 3 times (1984, 1985 and 1989) and never better than 3rd...

3) He did lead the league in receptions in 1985, but only had 2 TDs...

He was a good player...but not a Hall of Famer...there are just too many other WRs in his era that had more TDs, and yardage...

How many of those yards and TD were against the Chiefs?

Was awhile ago and seem to remember him making alot of plays that really hurt some teams.

chief31
10-31-2007, 02:24 AM
Sorry Chief31...but I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Art Monk was a very good football player...and thus he had a 15 year career...however during that 15 year career he was largely a possession receiver. He averaged only 4-5 TDs per year, and only put up big yardage in a couple years.

He had great hands, but in an era of flashy and incredible receivers, he didn't stand out.

1) He never had double-digit TDs (career high was 8 in 1991)...

2) He only was in the top 10 for yardage 3 times (1984, 1985 and 1989) and never better than 3rd...

3) He did lead the league in receptions in 1985, but only had 2 TDs...

He was a good player...but not a Hall of Famer...there are just too many other WRs in his era that had more TDs, and yardage...


When Art Monk retired, he was the all-time leading reciever, in NFL history. We went to four Super Bowls, playing in only three, and winning two of them.

That is the definition of a Hall of Fame player, right there. All of the excuses in the world will not make me respect the NFLHOF.

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 02:37 AM
How many of those yards and TD were against the Chiefs?

Was awhile ago and seem to remember him making alot of plays that really hurt some teams.

Over 15 years he did have 68 TDs...so I'm sure he hurt a few teams...KC wasn't one of those teams. He only faced the Chiefs once in his 16 year career, in 1992 he had 2 catches for 19 yards...seems pretty harmless to me, but I wasn't there...might've been big moments?!

I checked the game logs for his other seasons...KC & Was played in week 3 1983, but he missed weeks 2-4

McLovin
10-31-2007, 02:44 AM
Playing Devils Advocate.

If Droppie Parker gets 8 yards on 3rd and 9, or D-Bo Gets 2 on 3rd and 1 when he was hit 3 yards deep, who is more important.

Also simular scenerio, Gonzo gets 17 yards in a drive including 6 first downs but Droppie happens to get the TD catch, is Droppie then more important to the drive then Gonzo? I agree TDs are important but possession receivers who don't get a lot of yards can be the most important people on the field, they are often your go to back to make sure you get the yardage you need for the first.

I would like to see a stat on how many 1st downs Monk got and how that compared to some others in the HOF.

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 03:12 AM
Playing Devils Advocate.

If Droppie Parker gets 8 yards on 3rd and 9, or D-Bo Gets 2 on 3rd and 1 when he was hit 3 yards deep, who is more important.

Also simular scenerio, Gonzo gets 17 yards in a drive including 6 first downs but Droppie happens to get the TD catch, is Droppie then more important to the drive then Gonzo? I agree TDs are important but possession receivers who don't get a lot of yards can be the most important people on the field, they are often your go to back to make sure you get the yardage you need for the first.

I would like to see a stat on how many 1st downs Monk got and how that compared to some others in the HOF.

I'm not arguing that he wasn't a very good player...but he wasn't a shining star at his position during his era. He had a lot of receptions...940 in his career.

He actually has better numbers than a number of current HOF WRs, and frankly if he'd retired 3-4 years earlier he might've been in the HOF before the wave of great WRs that he played with. However he's competing in an era that is different than Swann and Stallworth, and will have a hard time making it through the committee.

chief31
10-31-2007, 03:19 AM
I'm not arguing that he wasn't a very good player...but he wasn't a shining star at his position during his era. He had a lot of receptions...940 in his career.

He actually has better numbers than a number of current HOF WRs, and frankly if he'd retired 3-4 years earlier he might've been in the HOF before the wave of great WRs that he played with. However he's competing in an era that is different than Swann and Stallworth, and will have a hard time making it through the committee.

Basically, since he wasn't a big-mouth ****-head, like Irvin, he will get over-looked.

If, when Rice retired, an entire class of recievers were putting up Moss-like numbers, and continued to do so, (making Rices numbers pale in comparison) would you make the case that Rice would have compete with their numbers? When you capture the all-time recieving yards statistic, you have earned your way into the Hall.

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 03:25 AM
Basically, since he wasn't a big-mouth ****-head, like Irvin, he will get over-looked.

If, when Rice retired, an entire class of recievers were putting up Moss-like numbers, and continued to do so, (making Rices numbers pale in comparison) would you make the case that Rice would have compete with their numbers? When you capture the all-time recieving yards statistic, you have earned your way into the Hall.

I agree...however look at Moss' numbers...he's had 2 or 3 incredible seasons and then been mediocre in others...Rice can match some of Moss' best seasons...but the discussion we're having is about Art Monk

Monk is not the All time Receiving yards leader, and as far as I can tell he never was. Lofton retired before Monk and has more yards at 14,004...

I can see an argument for Monk getting in, I just don't see him getting in until the Veterans Committee has a shot at inducting him.

chief31
10-31-2007, 04:13 AM
I agree...however look at Moss' numbers...he's had 2 or 3 incredible seasons and then been mediocre in others...Rice can match some of Moss' best seasons...but the discussion we're having is about Art Monk

Monk is not the All time Receiving yards leader, and as far as I can tell he never was. Lofton retired before Monk and has more yards at 14,004...

I can see an argument for Monk getting in, I just don't see him getting in until the Veterans Committee has a shot at inducting him.

Oh, my bad. All-time leader in receptions.

Canada
10-31-2007, 12:24 PM
Personally I think DT should be inducted, should have already, but being in the middle us and not a state called Texas the HOF votes just dont seem to be going his way.

On this I am a HOMER, I don't think anyone is more deserving at the present time then Derrick. Now im gonna hold my breath till he gets in. PFFFFFSSTTTTTTTTTTTTT.
Ok so maybe that didnt work. He really should be in though.

I think it is a joke that it has taken this long!!

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 01:10 PM
Oh, my bad. All-time leader in receptions.

Sorry I should've caught on to this...and yes for a short time he held that record...unfortunately for him, 5 guys have already passed him and at least 3 others are coming soon.

Rice, C.Carter, TBrown, Marvin Harrisona and Andre Reed have passed him. At least 4 of those guys are HOF type players (not sure about Reed)...but the problem is the 2 guys right there with him are Isaac Bruce and Keenan McCardell...Bruce maybe, but McCardell is not a HOFer in my book.

Like I said I can see an argument for Monk, and having the career reception record (even if for only a short time) is a strong boost, additionally as I look through the list of WRs inducted in the last 10 years (it is a short list) I see one guy who he is clearly better than (Lynn Swann) and 2 guys he is comparable to Stallworth and Irvin...

Irvin had 200 fewer receptions, 3 fewer TDs, and 1000 fewer yards...Irvin did have more Pro Bowl appearances...and put up his numbers in a shorter period of time (was more dominant but didn't have staying power)

Stallworth did play in an earlier era with less passing, however he had 400 fewer receptions, 5 fewer TDs and 4,000 fewer yards...he also played in more Pro Bowls than Monk and had 4 Super Bowl rings to Monks 3. He also had a big Super Bowl moment in Super Bowl XIV catching the winning 73 yard TD...that helps

Swann on the other hand has almost no argument for being in the HOF...at least not as a player. He only played for 9 years, he did catch more TDs per year than the other guys but still finished with only 51 (17 less than Monk) because of his shorter career.

After reviewing all the facts, I can still see an argument for both sides, although it is much more even than I previously thought. Since we can't remove Swann (which would be the proper fix), adding Monk is probably the only reasonable solution...

chief31
10-31-2007, 04:24 PM
Sorry I should've caught on to this...and yes for a short time he held that record...unfortunately for him, 5 guys have already passed him and at least 3 others are coming soon.

Rice, C.Carter, TBrown, Marvin Harrisona and Andre Reed have passed him. At least 4 of those guys are HOF type players (not sure about Reed)...but the problem is the 2 guys right there with him are Isaac Bruce and Keenan McCardell...Bruce maybe, but McCardell is not a HOFer in my book.

Like I said I can see an argument for Monk, and having the career reception record (even if for only a short time) is a strong boost, additionally as I look through the list of WRs inducted in the last 10 years (it is a short list) I see one guy who he is clearly better than (Lynn Swann) and 2 guys he is comparable to Stallworth and Irvin...

Irvin had 200 fewer receptions, 3 fewer TDs, and 1000 fewer yards...Irvin did have more Pro Bowl appearances...and put up his numbers in a shorter period of time (was more dominant but didn't have staying power)

Stallworth did play in an earlier era with less passing, however he had 400 fewer receptions, 5 fewer TDs and 4,000 fewer yards...he also played in more Pro Bowls than Monk and had 4 Super Bowl rings to Monks 3. He also had a big Super Bowl moment in Super Bowl XIV catching the winning 73 yard TD...that helps

Swann on the other hand has almost no argument for being in the HOF...at least not as a player. He only played for 9 years, he did catch more TDs per year than the other guys but still finished with only 51 (17 less than Monk) because of his shorter career.

After reviewing all the facts, I can still see an argument for both sides, although it is much more even than I previously thought. Since we can't remove Swann (which would be the proper fix), adding Monk is probably the only reasonable solution...

So would it be OK to refuse Brett Favre his spot in the hall, because a few years later his records will likely be broken? Because the game has changed near the end of his career?

I just think that it is ridiculous to use events that have happened since ones retirement against them. For that matter, we could reconsider guys like Jim Brown and Roger Staubach. (Not really.) But holding a guy to a standard that didn't exist when he played the bulk of his career isn't in any way fair.

hermhater
10-31-2007, 04:30 PM
I feel like the little kid who has jumped into the deep end of the pool on accident.

You guys really know your game.

Canada
10-31-2007, 04:31 PM
I feel like the little kid who has jumped into the deep end of the pool on accident.

You guys really know your game.

well....u are little

hermhater
10-31-2007, 04:35 PM
well....u are little


Hey we can't all have giant red heads!

Heh! :D :bananen_smilies046:

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 05:30 PM
So would it be OK to refuse Brett Favre his spot in the hall, because a few years later his records will likely be broken? Because the game has changed near the end of his career?

I just think that it is ridiculous to use events that have happened since ones retirement against them. For that matter, we could reconsider guys like Jim Brown and Roger Staubach. (Not really.) But holding a guy to a standard that didn't exist when he played the bulk of his career isn't in any way fair.

Deep breath Chief31...at the end of my last post I did say that the only reasonable solution would be to add Art Monk as he is definitely more deserving than a couple of other recent additions. As for the WRs I was comparing Monk to, I didn't include the guys from now (Harrison, SSmith, Owens, Moss, etc...) I included guys from his era (Lofton, Rice, Largent, etc.) As for HOF numbers Manning may break Favre's TD record eventually, but a lot of Favre's records will stand for some time.

Canada
10-31-2007, 05:32 PM
Deep breath Chief31...at the end of my last post I did say that the only reasonable solution would be to add Art Monk as he is definitely more deserving than a couple of other recent additions. As for the WRs I was comparing Monk to, I didn't include the guys from now (Harrison, SSmith, Owens, Moss, etc...) I included guys from his era (Lofton, Rice, Largent, etc.) As for HOF numbers Manning may break Favre's TD record eventually, but a lot of Favre's records will stand for some time.

Doubt it, his career will be finished after playing the Chiefs in acouple of weeks!! Mentally scared to go on the field again for fear of seeing 69 and 91 coming at him!! :bananen_smilies046:

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 05:45 PM
Doubt it, his career will be finished after playing the Chiefs in acouple of weeks!! Mentally scared to go on the field again for fear of seeing 69 and 91 coming at him!! :bananen_smilies046:

Seriously, you need to lay off the ambulance supply of narcotics...:D Manning may have a rough day, but the dude is an ironman...he likely won't want to face the Red Storm again...

Canada
10-31-2007, 05:46 PM
Seriously, you need to lay off the ambulance supply of narcotics...:D Manning may have a rough day, but the dude is an ironman...he likely won't want to face the Red Storm again...

Favre is an ironman, no one is allowed to touch Manning. He is the leagues poster boy for not being allowed to lay a finger on a QB!!

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 05:48 PM
Favre is an ironman, no one is allowed to touch Manning. He is the leagues poster boy for not being allowed to lay a finger on a QB!!

You are right...but what makes you think the league will make an exception for the upcoming game?

Canada
10-31-2007, 05:49 PM
You are right...but what makes you think the league will make an exception for the upcoming game?

They won't be able to blow the whistle fast enough. jared will be on top of him before the refs even know what is going on!!

rbedgood
10-31-2007, 05:51 PM
They won't be able to blow the whistle fast enough. jared will be on top of him before the refs even know what is going on!!

I like the thought...the only Manning I like is the lefty from USC (okay he's not official, but Archie adopted him in the commercial)

Canada
10-31-2007, 05:53 PM
I like the thought...the only Manning I like is the lefty from USC (okay he's not official, but Archie adopted him in the commercial)

:lol: :bananen_smilies046:

chiefinsyr
11-01-2007, 10:32 AM
Art Monk gets my vote to get in since he came from Syracuse.

Or because he was really good and deserved it. Either way is fine with me.