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m0ef0e
11-29-2007, 05:48 PM
That's what its quickly turning into, folks. Soon, you will have to order pay-per-views to watch your favorite team take the field on Sundays.

Last year, the NFL began broadcasting late-season, Thrusday night games exclusively on NFL Network. This year, the trend continues to an even greater extent. It seems that the NFL needs somebody to remind them that they would not be where they are today without their fans. If the NFL had been on a pay-per-view system like the WWE for the last several decades, their fan-base and revenue would probably not be nearly as huge as it is today.

Tonight the Cowboys and Packers face off for the undisputed number-one spot in the NFC and most of America will not be able to watch it from the comfort of their own homes. Currently, only about 30 to 40 percent of the more than 111 million TV-homes across America have the NFL Network.

Tonight, bars all across the country will be flooded with patrons looking for a place to watch something they could previously enjoy from their easy chair with a basic cable subscription. The NFL Network is available through several TV providers for a fee, of course and while Comcast now offers the NFL Network as part of a sports package that costs roughly five dollars a month, Time Warner and the NFL are still at odds with each other over carrying the channel.

Those people who have become fans of the NFL over the years are probably asking themselves why they should have to pay for something previously provided to them for no extra cost. It's a good question and one that deserves to be honestly answered with a reasonable resolution-- not for the already filthy-rich NFL and TV networks, but for the fans. The NFL would never be where it is at today without us, yet they throw us between themselves and the cable companies as pawns and bargaining chips in their corporate game of monopoly.

As a Comcast customer, I would like to know why I have to pay for a sports package that includes channels I will never watch just to get a few games at the tail-end of an NFL season that lasts less than half a year. They expect me to pay all year for something I will use for little more than a month. I don't follow either the NBA or NHL closely (both leagues' exclusive channels are included in Comcast's sports package) and I couldn't even tell you what other channels are included in the package because I would have little to no interest in watching them.

So, now I have to either pay more money on my cable bill or go to a bar and pay jacked-up beer prices to be crammed like sardines into an overly-crowded and uncomfortable atmosphere just to watch a single game. If the implications of tonight's matchup weren't so huge, I wouldn't even bother.

As a long-time fan of the NFL, I find myself becoming more and more disgusted with the antics of this league. What I see now is a greedy, merciless, corporate, money-grubbing machine that cares about as much for its own fans and players as it does feces. Even now, there are NFL players orgainizing fund-raisers and even giving up game checks in order to help provide some financial support for former NFL athletes who are plagued with long-term health problems that stem from the brutality of playing football at it's highest level. If the NFL doesn't even care enough to provide sufficient pensions for the men who sacrificed their bodies to them on the field, what would make anyone think that they would view the fans as anything more than fodder? In a corporate society where the dollar rules: compassion, fairness, honesty, and obligation all to often fall by the wayside. Seeking only the spoils, the NFL and cable companies are locked in a corporate war where the casualties are the fans.

DrunkHillbilly
11-29-2007, 06:50 PM
That's what its quickly turning into, folks. Soon, you will have to order pay-per-views to watch your favorite team take the field on Sundays.

Last year, the NFL began broadcasting late-season, Thrusday night games exclusively on NFL Network. This year, the trend continues to an even greater extent. It seems that the NFL needs somebody to remind them that they would not be where they are today without their fans. If the NFL had been on a pay-per-view system like the WWE for the last several decades, their fan-base and revenue would probably not be nearly as huge as it is today.

Tonight the Cowboys and Packers face off for the undisputed number-one spot in the NFC and most of America will not be able to watch it from the comfort of their own homes. Currently, only about 30 to 40 percent of the more than 111 million TV-homes across America have the NFL Network.

Tonight, bars all across the country will be flooded with patrons looking for a place to watch something they could previously enjoy from their easy chair with a basic cable subscription. The NFL Network is available through several TV providers for a fee, of course and while Comcast now offers the NFL Network as part of a sports package that costs roughly five dollars a month, Time Warner and the NFL are still at odds with each other over carrying the channel.

Those people who have become fans of the NFL over the years are probably asking themselves why they should have to pay for something previously provided to them for no extra cost. It's a good question and one that deserves to be honestly answered with a reasonable resolution-- not for the already filthy-rich NFL and TV networks, but for the fans. The NFL would never be where it is at today without us, yet they throw us between themselves and the cable companies as pawns and bargaining chips in their corporate game of monopoly.

As a Comcast customer, I would like to know why I have to pay for a sports package that includes channels I will never watch just to get a few games at the tail-end of an NFL season that lasts less than half a year. They expect me to pay all year for something I will use for little more than a month. I don't follow either the NBA or NHL closely (both leagues' exclusive channels are included in Comcast's sports package) and I couldn't even tell you what other channels are included in the package because I would have little to no interest in watching them.

So, now I have to either pay more money on my cable bill or go to a bar and pay jacked-up beer prices to be crammed like sardines into an overly-crowded and uncomfortable atmosphere just to watch a single game. If the implications of tonight's matchup weren't so huge, I wouldn't even bother.

As a long-time fan of the NFL, I find myself becoming more and more disgusted with the antics of this league. What I see now is a greedy, merciless, corporate, money-grubbing machine that cares about as much for its own fans and players as it does feces. Even now, there are NFL players orgainizing fund-raisers and even giving up game checks in order to help provide some financial support for former NFL athletes who are plagued with long-term health problems that stem from the brutality of playing football at it's highest level. If the NFL doesn't even care enough to provide sufficient pensions for the men who sacrificed their bodies to them on the field, what would make anyone think that they would view the fans as anything more than fodder? In a corporate society where the dollar rules: compassion, fairness, honesty, and obligation all to often fall by the wayside. Seeking only the spoils, the NFL and cable companies are locked in a corporate war where the casualties are the fans.

As a bar owner.........YEAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

YZILLA
11-29-2007, 07:00 PM
My cable company who was offering NFL channel last year decided a week before the Thanksgiving game between the Donkeys and Chiefs was not going to be showed. I got pissed and called my cable company and told them cancel my account. I called Dish Network and had it installed a day before the game. Watched the game, Actually got to record it on my new DVR that came with the Dish Network package and all is well today for me. I wont go back, maybe go to Direct but never back to cable. Especially since the prices keep going up with cable.

Canada
11-29-2007, 07:02 PM
As a bar owner.........YEAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

sure sure

Canada
11-29-2007, 07:02 PM
Football is already pretty much pay per view if you consider Sunday Ticket, so I really don't care what they do since I have been paying for football for the last three years anyways!!

DrunkHillbilly
11-29-2007, 07:21 PM
sure sure
Honestly, I am only at the sports bars for about 2 or 3 hours combined in the mornings and I must have had 30 calls asking if we were going to have the game tonight. I guess a lot of people don't get the NFL Network.

rbedgood
11-29-2007, 10:16 PM
Hillbilly,

Your in AZ right? Customers with Cox Digital Cable and the Sports Tier get NFL Network, those without the Sports Tier or with Basic Cable do not.

McLovin
11-29-2007, 11:45 PM
That's what its quickly turning into, folks. Soon, you will have to order pay-per-views to watch your favorite team take the field on Sundays.

Last year, the NFL began broadcasting late-season, Thrusday night games exclusively on NFL Network. This year, the trend continues to an even greater extent. It seems that the NFL needs somebody to remind them that they would not be where they are today without their fans. If the NFL had been on a pay-per-view system like the WWE for the last several decades, their fan-base and revenue would probably not be nearly as huge as it is today.

Tonight the Cowboys and Packers face off for the undisputed number-one spot in the NFC and most of America will not be able to watch it from the comfort of their own homes. Currently, only about 30 to 40 percent of the more than 111 million TV-homes across America have the NFL Network.

Tonight, bars all across the country will be flooded with patrons looking for a place to watch something they could previously enjoy from their easy chair with a basic cable subscription. The NFL Network is available through several TV providers for a fee, of course and while Comcast now offers the NFL Network as part of a sports package that costs roughly five dollars a month, Time Warner and the NFL are still at odds with each other over carrying the channel.

Those people who have become fans of the NFL over the years are probably asking themselves why they should have to pay for something previously provided to them for no extra cost. It's a good question and one that deserves to be honestly answered with a reasonable resolution-- not for the already filthy-rich NFL and TV networks, but for the fans. The NFL would never be where it is at today without us, yet they throw us between themselves and the cable companies as pawns and bargaining chips in their corporate game of monopoly.

As a Comcast customer, I would like to know why I have to pay for a sports package that includes channels I will never watch just to get a few games at the tail-end of an NFL season that lasts less than half a year. They expect me to pay all year for something I will use for little more than a month. I don't follow either the NBA or NHL closely (both leagues' exclusive channels are included in Comcast's sports package) and I couldn't even tell you what other channels are included in the package because I would have little to no interest in watching them.

So, now I have to either pay more money on my cable bill or go to a bar and pay jacked-up beer prices to be crammed like sardines into an overly-crowded and uncomfortable atmosphere just to watch a single game. If the implications of tonight's matchup weren't so huge, I wouldn't even bother.

As a long-time fan of the NFL, I find myself becoming more and more disgusted with the antics of this league. What I see now is a greedy, merciless, corporate, money-grubbing machine that cares about as much for its own fans and players as it does feces. Even now, there are NFL players orgainizing fund-raisers and even giving up game checks in order to help provide some financial support for former NFL athletes who are plagued with long-term health problems that stem from the brutality of playing football at it's highest level. If the NFL doesn't even care enough to provide sufficient pensions for the men who sacrificed their bodies to them on the field, what would make anyone think that they would view the fans as anything more than fodder? In a corporate society where the dollar rules: compassion, fairness, honesty, and obligation all to often fall by the wayside. Seeking only the spoils, the NFL and cable companies are locked in a corporate war where the casualties are the fans.

Sorry to disagree, but most of america is able to get the NFL network for around 5 dollars a month, if they dont want to pay 5 dollars a month they aren't much of a football fan, I would like to see the NFL network have 5 or 6 channels and broadcast all televised games that are out of market, I am out of KC and would have to pay 150 or more plus carry Direct TV to get the Chiefs games, I am hoping that digital channels (allowing CBS to broadcast like 5 streams instead of 1) will allow for every game to be an in market game on 1 channel. Then they can sell more advertising and best case I can watch the Chiefs even in Bears country.

rbedgood
11-29-2007, 11:47 PM
Sorry to disagree, but most of america is able to get the NFL network for around 5 dollars a month, if they dont want to pay 5 dollars a month they aren't much of a football fan, I would like to see the NFL network have 5 or 6 channels and broadcast all televised games that are out of market, I am out of KC and would have to pay 150 or more plus carry Direct TV to get the Chiefs games, I am hoping that digital channels (allowing CBS to broadcast like 5 streams instead of 1) will allow for every game to be an in market game on 1 channel. Then they can sell more advertising and best case I can watch the Chiefs even in Bears country.

Welcome to fantasy land...on the left you will see the Matterhorn Mountain. On the right is "It's a Small World" and Mr Toad's Wild Ride...

Seriously though I like the sound of your idea, but I don't see the NFL owners and powers that be, caring what is best for the fans.

hermhater
11-29-2007, 11:52 PM
Sorry to disagree, but most of america is able to get the NFL network for around 5 dollars a month, if they dont want to pay 5 dollars a month they aren't much of a football fan, I would like to see the NFL network have 5 or 6 channels and broadcast all televised games that are out of market, I am out of KC and would have to pay 150 or more plus carry Direct TV to get the Chiefs games, I am hoping that digital channels (allowing CBS to broadcast like 5 streams instead of 1) will allow for every game to be an in market game on 1 channel. Then they can sell more advertising and best case I can watch the Chiefs even in Bears country.


ESPN said that 74 millions customers won't be able to get the game with cable.

That is about 1/3 of America. Also you can't get NFL network unless you have digital cable which costs money, and then to get the upper tiers it costs more money. So it isn't just 5 bucks a month.

So I guess your right MOST of America can get it but 2/3's of the fans can't.

It is BS.

Go to DirecTV and I think you can get it though.

Canada
11-29-2007, 11:57 PM
I am, too drunk to get into it right now but bryonc can kiss my *** with his $$$spent=biggest fan cause i'll kink ur ***




later...burp







shaddap

McLovin
11-29-2007, 11:59 PM
ESPN said that 74 millions customers won't be able to get the game with cable.

That is about 1/3 of America. Also you can't get NFL network unless you have digital cable which costs money, and then to get the upper tiers it costs more money. So it isn't just 5 bucks a month.

So I guess your right MOST of America can get it but 2/3's of the fans can't.

It is BS.

Go to DirecTV and I think you can get it though.

ESPN is just *****in because they don't get to carry them, it is all business, and personally I have the money to go and get digital cable and the upper tier, I could care less about less fortunate ones that don't have the money for it. If you don't have the money and you want to have NFL Network then get another job or a second job, or an education, or sell something. The problem is... a personal problem, not mine.

BTW this wasn't posted at a poster, just people in general. Their problems aren't my problems.

Canada
11-30-2007, 12:03 AM
ESPN is just *****in because they don't get to carry them, it is all business, and personally I have the money to go and get digital cable and the upper tier, I could care less about less fortunate ones that don't have the money for it. If you don't have the money and you want to have NFL Network then get another job or a second job, or an education, or sell something. The problem is... a personal problem, not mine.

BTW this wasn't posted at a poster, just people in general. Their problems aren't my problems.

Kiss my ***....you are an arrogant #$#$% I don't care if u dont have access ort money... could u be more of a dick. Football should be avbailable to everyone... not just the rich ones. Dont equate money and fandome. it s bull**** and people that think that way make football suck. soelling mistakes and all
i;m durnk!!! :toast2:

tornadospotter
11-30-2007, 12:16 AM
ESPN is just *****in because they don't get to carry them, it is all business, and personally I have the money to go and get digital cable and the upper tier, I could care less about less fortunate ones that don't have the money for it. If you don't have the money and you want to have NFL Network then get another job or a second job, or an education, or sell something. The problem is... a personal problem, not mine.

BTW this wasn't posted at a poster, just people in general. Their problems aren't my problems.
Well then I quess I have personal problems. :mob:

tornadospotter
11-30-2007, 12:17 AM
Kiss my ***....you are an arrogant #$#$% I don't care if u dont have access ort money... could u be more of a dick. Football should be avbailable to everyone... not just the rich ones. Dont equate money and fandome. it s bull**** and people that think that way make football suck. soelling mistakes and all
i;m durnk!!! :toast2:
:sign0098: :bananen_smilies046: Ditto

rbedgood
11-30-2007, 12:17 AM
Dangit Canada...its more fun to pick on you and disagree and argue, but you keep hitting the nail on the head tonight. Football is "every man's" (and women) sport...you elitist money grabbers (bryon) should stick to Tennis, Golf and Polo. Go the #*$&(*#$&!!!! AWAY.

rbedgood
11-30-2007, 12:19 AM
Dangit Canada...its more fun to pick on you and disagree and argue, but you keep hitting the nail on the head tonight. Football is "every man's" (and women) sport...you elitist money grabbers (bryon) should stick to Tennis, Golf and Polo. Go the #*$&(*#$&!!!! AWAY.

p.s. I have NFL Network and can afford it, I just think it sucks that not everyone can...

p.p.s. It is offered on Digital Cable for some people...but not all cable customers even have the option.

McLovin
11-30-2007, 12:23 AM
p.s. I have NFL Network and can afford it, I just think it sucks that not everyone can...

p.p.s. It is offered on Digital Cable for some people...but not all cable customers even have the option.

And if it is not offered, then it should be, but if it wasn't for NFL network a these games that are being televised on the NFL network would probably not be televised at all. Again anyone can flame away but I am sticking to my guns.

Also I did say that I would love to see CBS show all of the games they are offered on digital tv, that is free, I am just tired of being offered 4 games a week because CBS here would rather show golf. As for the elitist moneygrabbers, whatever.

tornadospotter
11-30-2007, 12:24 AM
p.s. I have NFL Network and can afford it, I just think it sucks that not everyone can...

p.p.s. It is offered on Digital Cable for some people...but not all cable customers even have the option.
I don't have digital yet. I should get it, after all I did add HBO, just to get Hard Knocks and have not taken it off, yet. So I probally could afford digital cable, I don't have a problen getting Chief's games, except for last season thanksgiving, and I was pssed about that.

rbedgood
11-30-2007, 12:28 AM
Frankly I could get the dish network and the NFL package if I wanted to, but it wouldn't do me much good as I am usually travelling or already at a hotel during the NFL game days (Sunday, Monday & Thursday). So the money would be wasted on my wife and 3 year old son who don't watch football unless I am home controlling the remote.

However I have considered investing in Slingbox at some point to resolve this situation.

tornadospotter
11-30-2007, 12:31 AM
Frankly I could get the dish network and the NFL package if I wanted to, but it wouldn't do me much good as I am usually travelling or already at a hotel during the NFL game days (Sunday, Monday & Thursday). So the money would be wasted on my wife and 3 year old son who don't watch football unless I am home controlling the remote.

However I have considered investing in Slingbox at some point to resolve this situation.
For the Teck challenge people, me, what is that.:sign0153:

hermhater
11-30-2007, 12:36 AM
Frankly I could get the dish network and the NFL package if I wanted to, but it wouldn't do me much good as I am usually travelling or already at a hotel during the NFL game days (Sunday, Monday & Thursday). So the money would be wasted on my wife and 3 year old son who don't watch football unless I am home controlling the remote.

However I have considered investing in Slingbox at some point to resolve this situation.


You can watch your home TV LIVE from anywhere in the world!

Pretty freakin' cool!

tornadospotter
11-30-2007, 12:38 AM
You can watch your home TV LIVE from anywhere in the world!

Pretty freakin' cool!
But if you are not home to control the remote. Can you still watch any channel, or will somebody like me have to watch what the wife is watching, hallmark, lifetime, ect.

rbedgood
11-30-2007, 12:55 AM
It actually allows you to watch the tv, and there is a remote on your computer screen to change the channels...I'd just lock the remote in my gun safe before leaving town and my wife would have no control of the TV as we've locked the buttons on the TV to prevent the 3 year old from getting beatings when he flips the channel during a football game.

rbedgood
11-30-2007, 12:55 AM
It actually allows you to watch the tv, and there is a remote on your computer screen to change the channels...I'd just lock the remote in my gun safe before leaving town and my wife would have no control of the TV as we've locked the buttons on the TV to prevent the 3 year old from getting beatings when he flips the channel during a football game.

p.s. I'm just kidding about the 3 year old getting beatings, but he was changing the channels on us...:lol:

hermhater
11-30-2007, 12:57 AM
It actually allows you to watch the tv, and there is a remote on your computer screen to change the channels...I'd just lock the remote in my gun safe before leaving town and my wife would have no control of the TV as we've locked the buttons on the TV to prevent the 3 year old from getting beatings when he flips the channel during a football game.



:lol:

tornadospotter
11-30-2007, 01:00 AM
p.s. I'm just kidding about the 3 year old getting beatings, but he was changing the channels on us...:lol:
Well you know spare the rod spoil the child. (j/k) But one must teach young Chiefs about priority's!!! :11:

rbedgood
11-30-2007, 01:03 AM
Well you know spare the rod spoil the child. (j/k) But one must teach young Chiefs about priority's!!! :11:

I have a young 49er (if he knows what's good for him), but the priority of football we agree on.

tornadospotter
11-30-2007, 01:10 AM
I have a young 49er (if he knows what's good for him), but the priority of football we agree on.
OK so I hope the Chiefs are second on list of priorities, My son in-law is a big 49er, so I guess my grandson will be a duel citizen, but I will try to influence the Chief Nation as number 1. :yahoo:

rbedgood
11-30-2007, 01:18 AM
My wife is an AZ native and already tried to put him in a Crapinals jersey...we had a burning party in the BBQ a couple weeks back.

Guru
11-30-2007, 01:21 AM
Sorry to disagree, but most of america is able to get the NFL network for around 5 dollars a month, if they dont want to pay 5 dollars a month they aren't much of a football fan, I would like to see the NFL network have 5 or 6 channels and broadcast all televised games that are out of market, I am out of KC and would have to pay 150 or more plus carry Direct TV to get the Chiefs games, I am hoping that digital channels (allowing CBS to broadcast like 5 streams instead of 1) will allow for every game to be an in market game on 1 channel. Then they can sell more advertising and best case I can watch the Chiefs even in Bears country.

Not in my market it is not. For me to upgrade enough to get NFL Network I would have to jump from $12.50 per month to $85 per month because our cable provider stuck it clear up on a digital sports tier.

tornadospotter
11-30-2007, 01:28 AM
My wife is an AZ native and already tried to put him in a Crapinals jersey...we had a burning party in the BBQ a couple weeks back.
:yahoo: I hope that you have that dog house well stocked with essential necessity's! :lol:

McLovin
11-30-2007, 01:30 AM
Not in my market it is not. For me to upgrade enough to get NFL Network I would have to jump from $12.50 per month to $85 per month because our cable provider stuck it clear up on a digital sports tier.


That would suck, I would say that would almost mean it was worth changing to satellite if that is an option. Although the 12.50 tier I am guessing is the basic and is only 13 channels, but still the jump to 85 is crazy. Here it is a jump from 30 to 40 to go from expanded basic to digital cable. I switched from Direct TV back to digital cable to because for the moment Digital Cable is cheaper due to the number of rooms I have cable in.

Mainly for me I want more options for NFL games then to add the NFL Season Ticket, that is ONLY available on Direct TV. With that if you are in an apt then you cant get it, if you are in a rental house, you may not be able to get it, and if you hate Direct TV it is not much of an option either.

Around here everyone is complaining about not being able to get the Big Ten Network, I am on board with complaining too because it isn't being offered, and it would show a lot more college games, but the big cable company here doesn't want to offer it even at a cost because it would cost them a couple dollars, never mind we have 10 shopping channels and several religious channels.

Guru
11-30-2007, 01:36 AM
That would suck, I would say that would almost mean it was worth changing to satellite if that is an option. Although the 12.50 tier I am guessing is the basic and is only 13 channels, but still the jump to 85 is crazy. Here it is a jump from 30 to 40 to go from expanded basic to digital cable. I switched from Direct TV back to digital cable to because for the moment Digital Cable is cheaper due to the number of rooms I have cable in.

Mainly for me I want more options for NFL games then to add the NFL Season Ticket, that is ONLY available on Direct TV. With that if you are in an apt then you cant get it, if you are in a rental house, you may not be able to get it, and if you hate Direct TV it is not much of an option either.

Around here everyone is complaining about not being able to get the Big Ten Network, I am on board with complaining too because it isn't being offered, and it would show a lot more college games, but the big cable company here doesn't want to offer it even at a cost because it would cost them a couple dollars, never mind we have 10 shopping channels and several religious channels.

We watch primarily network TV so it burns me to even pay $12.50 per month for that. But it gets me a clean signal. I have no interest in the other 200 channels that have absolutely nothing on.

I would love to have more sports but it is just not worth the extra money to get it. Just to get ESPN I would have to go from $12.50 to $45 per month.

rbedgood
11-30-2007, 01:40 AM
:yahoo: I hope that you have that dog house well stocked with essential necessity's! :lol:

Not in my house my friend. I love my wife, and she's a sweetheart. Buy my a$$ brought home the paycheck. She doesn't have to sleep with me, but I'm sleeping in the bed. I know where the couch is, but I'm not sleeping there...unless I fall asleep during a really bad football game.

tornadospotter
11-30-2007, 01:43 AM
Not in my house my friend. I love my wife, and she's a sweetheart. Buy my a$$ brought home the paycheck. She doesn't have to sleep with me, but I'm sleeping in the bed. I know where the couch is, but I'm not sleeping there...unless I fall asleep during a really bad football game.
:sign0098: :bananen_smilies046: Mancard status defiantly strong in this family! :toast2:

rbedgood
11-30-2007, 01:44 AM
It was temporarily revoked on this website, however restoration occured before I slept that night.















As it should be...

Canada
11-30-2007, 10:50 AM
And if it is not offered, then it should be, but if it wasn't for NFL network a these games that are being televised on the NFL network would probably not be televised at all. Again anyone can flame away but I am sticking to my guns.

Also I did say that I would love to see CBS show all of the games they are offered on digital tv, that is free, I am just tired of being offered 4 games a week because CBS here would rather show golf. As for the elitist moneygrabbers, whatever.

That might be the dumbest thing I ever heard. If NFL network didn't exist (kinda like it didn't used to exist) then they wouldn't air the biggest game of the year?? Are you kidding me?? They would have played it on regular TV high roller. Pay for football....you pay for football moron. Should be free, you want to overpay for it, go to a game.

m0ef0e
11-30-2007, 02:23 PM
For me to upgrade enough to get the digital sports tier would double my cable bill. I don't have digital cable nor do I want it because it's crap. You pay a bunch of money for a bunch of crappy channels and then still have to pay extra for the good channels. The cable companies don't even use lube!