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Coach
01-08-2008, 10:21 PM
So this has been bugging me for awhile. And I'm sure I am going to speared for this thread. But here goes.

If you had one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL, why in the heck would you try to run a passing offense? Especially with a rookie QB? It just doesn't make sense.

One of the major reasons that Herm was trying to run the ball this year, especially early on, was because our best every down threat was Larry Johnson. If you put a rookie QB in a pass happy offense behind a line that can't pass block, what good can possibly come of it?

Besides the fact, that he is trying to help give the defense some confidence. Our defense would have finished last in the league if Herm would have tried to pass as often as most people on these boards would have liked. The defense would have been on the field constantly.

Oh by the way.....It isn't like we have a boatload of prolific receivers to throw the ball to. A rookie WR is our best WR threat. When your best passing threat is a TE, you better be able to run the ball.

I'm not Herm Edwards' #1 fan for other reasons. But, I think he is taking far too much negative criticism because of the situation he was put in. The O-line has been neglected for years while the Dick Vermiel era tried to make a run at a championship.

All I'm saying is that if I were a head coach that inherited a team that had a poor offensive line, a rookie QB, poor WR's, a struggling defense, and my best offensive threat was a LJ.......Well then, I'd be running the damn ball too.

Canada
01-08-2008, 10:31 PM
So this has been bugging me for awhile. And I'm sure I am going to speared for this thread. But here goes.

If you had one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL, why in the heck would you try to run a passing offense? Especially with a rookie QB? It just doesn't make sense.

One of the major reasons that Herm was trying to run the ball this year, especially early on, was because our best every down threat was Larry Johnson. If you put a rookie QB in a pass happy offense behind a line that can't pass block, what good can possibly come of it?

Besides the fact, that he is trying to help give the defense some confidence. Our defense would have finished last in the league if Herm would have tried to pass as often as most people on these boards would have liked. The defense would have been on the field constantly.

Oh by the way.....It isn't like we have a boatload of prolific receivers to throw the ball to. A rookie WR is our best WR threat. When your best passing threat is a TE, you better be able to run the ball.

I'm not Herm Edwards' #1 fan for other reasons. But, I think he is taking far too much negative criticism because of the situation he was put in. The O-line has been neglected for years while the Dick Vermiel era tried to make a run at a championship.

All I'm saying is that if I were a head coach that inherited a team that had a poor offensive line, a rookie QB, poor WR's, a struggling defense, and my best offensive threat was a LJ.......Well then, I'd be running the damn ball too.

Like I have said earlier, I don't mind running the ball and you make some valid points, but my problem was in the running EVERY single first down we had. I am not saying go pass happy, but why can't you throw 1/3 of the time on first down to keep opposing defenses honest. If LJ is the best offensive threat, then why hamstring him by telling the defense that you are gong to give him the ball on every first down? That is where I believe that Herm does deserve to take some heat. He is the focal point of a lot of angry fans, but that is why he gets paid.

Coach
01-08-2008, 10:34 PM
Like I have said earlier, I don't mind running the ball and you make some valid points, but my problem was in the running EVERY single first down we had. I am not saying go pass happy, but why can't you throw 1/3 of the time on first down to keep opposing defenses honest. If LJ is the best offensive threat, then why hamstring him by telling the defense that you are gong to give him the ball on every first down? That is where I believe that Herm does deserve to take some heat. He is the focal point of a lot of angry fans, but that is why he gets paid.

Agreed that Herm shares some responsibility since he is the head coach.

But did Herm decide what play was being called in to the QB on 1st down, or did Mike Solari?

hermhater
01-08-2008, 10:36 PM
My issues was not the amount of passes Herm (Solari, whoever) was calling, it was the predictability of his running game.

Our O line wasn't any better at rush blocking than it was at pass blocking, so I don't see how that argument stands up.

I disagree that Larry was our best every down threat since the opposing D's were stacking 8 or 9 men in the box.

Since Carl kept saying we are not rebuilding (liar) that is why Herm probably had to start Huard.

We were rebuilding (as they are saying now since the season was so horrible) so Brody should have been starting from day one.

It is Herms offensive philosophy that keeps getting offensive players hurt. It happened in NY and it is happening here in KC.

Granted, Green was stupid last year (and this year in Miami) for trying to do too much and that got him injured.

Out TE is a HUGE threat and had another pro bowl season, getting as many yards as a lot of the leading wide receivers in the league.

I was not as impressed as some people about our D line picks last year, and still think we should have invested in O lineman, but Herm doesn't care about the O.

There's not really much reason to ***** about Herm at this point anyway.

I am waiting to see what we do during the draft before I yell about Herms sorry a$$ anymore.

Canada
01-08-2008, 10:40 PM
Agreed that Herm shares some responsibility since he is the head coach.

But did Herm decide what play was being called in to the QB on 1st down, or did Mike Solari?

The Head Coach could tell him not to run every first down couldn't he? Even if it is Solari's call, Herm shoulda said "Hey Dumbass....mix it up on first down" but he sat on the sidelines smilin away.

AkChief49
01-08-2008, 10:43 PM
"I disagree that Larry was our best every down threat since the opposing D's were stacking 8 or 9 men in the box." dude!????

Canada
01-08-2008, 10:46 PM
"I disagree that Larry was our best every down threat since the opposing D's were stacking 8 or 9 men in the box." dude!????

Maybe it woulda helped if they threw the damned ball on first down once in a while!! :lol:

nigeriannightmare
01-08-2008, 10:48 PM
Herm and Carl decided that the line they had put together would be good enough to make a playoff push. He did chose to sign MacIntosh to a 8 million dollar contract as well as sign Kyle Turley. You can blame it on the Vermeil years and their lack of development, but we are where we are. Herm is famous for saying you play to win the game and then says we just want to keep it close going into the fourth quarter so that we MAY have a chance to win, hypocrisy at it's finest. He also new the state of the line before this year, he may have thought Shields was coming back and that's why he didn't address the line. Like I said two Hall of Fame linemen retired through the press not by having a chat with the coach, that a lone speaks volumes to the character of Herm.

hermhater
01-08-2008, 10:50 PM
"I disagree that Larry was our best every down threat since the opposing D's were stacking 8 or 9 men in the box." dude!????

Since I wasn't able to record the first 7 games I don't visual evidence, but I seem to recall him getting stuffed in the backfield on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs in the backfield.

Because of the lack of creativity in play calling I think he only had 1 or 2 100 yard games during that span.

What are you disagreeing with?

Coach
01-08-2008, 10:51 PM
it was the predictability of his running game.
But I think that is why Solari got rightfully fired.


Our O line wasn't any better at rush blocking than it was at pass blocking, so I don't see how that argument stands up.
It makes a huge difference if you would like to keep your rookie QB from ending the year on the IR and destroying any confidence they may have.


I disagree that Larry was our best every down threat since the opposing D's were stacking 8 or 9 men in the box.
Who was a better every down threat? Are we really going to throw to Gonzo every play? It seemed that way some games.


We were rebuilding (as they are saying now since the season was so horrible) so Brody should have been starting from day one.
Agreed, although I was personally in the camp that wanted to see if Huard was the real thing after last season when we was unstoppable.


It is Herms offensive philosophy that keeps getting offensive players hurt. It happened in NY and it is happening here in KC.Not sure, I understand this. Please explain.



Out TE is a HUGE threat and had another pro bowl season, getting as many yards as a lot of the leading wide receivers in the league.Yes he's good.


I was not as impressed as some people about our D line picks last year, and still think we should have invested in O lineman, but Herm doesn't care about the O.
I thought last year's draft was better than the previous drafts we have had the last few years. I thought the D line picks worked out OK. Just my opinion. I would have liked to seen the Chiefs work on the O-line, but they needed a WR and they got a good one. I don't know many good o-lineman that were taken late in the draft.


There's not really much reason to ***** about Herm at this point anyway.
Agreed. He isn't going anywhere for at least another year.

AkChief49
01-08-2008, 10:52 PM
"I disagree that Larry was our best every down threat since the opposing D's were stacking 8 or 9 men in the box." dude!???? sorry about this.... it was a quote from HH. My point is that Larry was/is our best first down threat and everyone else knew it, hence the 8/9 in the box.... And yes, I agree a pass now and then on first down keeps them guessing.

Canada
01-08-2008, 10:53 PM
Who is this Coach guy??

Coach
01-08-2008, 10:53 PM
The Head Coach could tell him not to run every first down couldn't he? Even if it is Solari's call, Herm shoulda said "Hey Dumbass....mix it up on first down" but he sat on the sidelines smilin away.
As I said, Herm shares some responsibility since he is the head coach.

Canada
01-08-2008, 10:55 PM
On that note boys, I have been up for a day and a half so I am going sleeping now. See you sometime when I wake up. Well not really see you cause it is just a computer but I will post and pm with you all later. Goodnite.











That is all.

Coach
01-08-2008, 10:56 PM
Because of the lack of creativity in play calling I think he only had 1 or 2 100 yard games during that span.

What are you disagreeing with?

Doesn't the Offensive coordinator do the playcalling?

hermhater
01-08-2008, 10:59 PM
Who was a better every down threat? Are we really going to throw to Gonzo every play? It seemed that way some games.

Throwing to Gonzo on first down would have been a spectacular idea!


Not sure, I understand this. Please explain.

Because of Herm (Solari, whoever) predictability the D is able to T off on our O players consistently. Just as opposing D's were able to do in NY (five QB's Herms final year there).

Yes he's good.

He is the BEST ever!


I thought last year's draft was better than the previous drafts we have had the last few years. I thought the D line picks worked out OK. Just my opinion. I would have liked to seen the Chiefs work on the O-line, but they needed a WR and they got a good one. I don't know many good o-lineman that were taken late in the draft.

McBride, and Taylor were not impressive to me at all. Perhaps they will improve.


Agreed. He isn't going anywhere for at least another year.

Seriously Coach did you yell anything at Herm?

Coach
01-08-2008, 10:59 PM
Herm and Carl decided that the line they had put together would be good enough to make a playoff push. He did chose to sign MacIntosh to a 8 million dollar contract as well as sign Kyle Turley. You can blame it on the Vermeil years and their lack of development, but we are where we are. Herm is famous for saying you play to win the game and then says we just want to keep it close going into the fourth quarter so that we MAY have a chance to win, hypocrisy at it's finest. He also new the state of the line before this year, he may have thought Shields was coming back and that's why he didn't address the line. Like I said two Hall of Fame linemen retired through the press not by having a chat with the coach, that a lone speaks volumes to the character of Herm.

Herm and Carl both deserve blame for not spending more money on rebuilding the line. But they had a a defense that was a JOKE. They spent money in free agency trying to improve the defense. They had a star RB they needed to resign, and a holdout WR that they had just drafted.

hermhater
01-08-2008, 11:02 PM
Doesn't the Offensive coordinator do the playcalling?

The O coordinator calls plays according to the "game plan" the head coach gives him.

That is how I see it happening.

Coach
01-08-2008, 11:05 PM
Who is this Coach guy??

I was waiting for something like this. I'm playing devil's advocate as much as anything.

I just think it is very easy to second guess and play backseat driver.

hermhater
01-08-2008, 11:09 PM
I was waiting for something like this. I'm playing devil's advocate as much as anything.

I just think it is very easy to second guess and play backseat driver.


At the beginning of the season I was more pissed off at Herm for the idiot statements he kept making to the press and embarrassing OUR Chiefs.

As the season progressed and I watched him start killing our players off, one by one, my passionate hate for Herm has grown.

I never wanted the guy here in KC, but was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since these are after all OUR Chiefs.

Seeing and listening to him week after week gave me a sinking feeling in my gut because I could see how this was going to turn out.

I hate how he keeps saying he got us to the playoffs last year, when he inherited a Championship caliber offense and basically destroyed it (I know that Roaf and Shields left, but they left because of Herm).

rbedgood
01-08-2008, 11:45 PM
So this has been bugging me for awhile. And I'm sure I am going to speared for this thread. But here goes.

If you had one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL, why in the heck would you try to run a passing offense? Especially with a rookie QB? It just doesn't make sense.

One of the major reasons that Herm was trying to run the ball this year, especially early on, was because our best every down threat was Larry Johnson. If you put a rookie QB in a pass happy offense behind a line that can't pass block, what good can possibly come of it?

Besides the fact, that he is trying to help give the defense some confidence. Our defense would have finished last in the league if Herm would have tried to pass as often as most people on these boards would have liked. The defense would have been on the field constantly.

Oh by the way.....It isn't like we have a boatload of prolific receivers to throw the ball to. A rookie WR is our best WR threat. When your best passing threat is a TE, you better be able to run the ball.

I'm not Herm Edwards' #1 fan for other reasons. But, I think he is taking far too much negative criticism because of the situation he was put in. The O-line has been neglected for years while the Dick Vermiel era tried to make a run at a championship.

All I'm saying is that if I were a head coach that inherited a team that had a poor offensive line, a rookie QB, poor WR's, a struggling defense, and my best offensive threat was a LJ.......Well then, I'd be running the damn ball too.

I agree on the concept that LJ was the best tool in the offense considering the Line play didn't allow for many plays downfield...however mixing in some more screen passes, slants, quick outs and 4-routes would have allowed for greater variety and use of the other weapons in the offense, without putting Croyle under considerable pass rush pressure.

He did inherit an aging and undertalented team at many positions, but his use of the personnel he had was mediocre at best.

prough91
01-09-2008, 12:16 AM
At the beginning of the season I was more pissed off at Herm for the idiot statements he kept making to the press and embarrassing OUR Chiefs.

As the season progressed and I watched him start killing our players off, one by one, my passionate hate for Herm has grown.

I never wanted the guy here in KC, but was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since these are after all OUR Chiefs.

Seeing and listening to him week after week gave me a sinking feeling in my gut because I could see how this was going to turn out.

I hate how he keeps saying he got us to the playoffs last year, when he inherited a Championship caliber offense and basically destroyed it (I know that Roaf and Shields left, but they left because of Herm).

Do you have any proof of that? Or is it just your opinion? I know Roaf was quoted in the Star as saying Shields talked him into coming back for one more year and that's what he did, played one more year.

Guru
01-09-2008, 12:45 AM
It doesn't matter to me if we run or pass. I can't stand Herm and NEVER wanted him here in the first place.

hermhater
01-09-2008, 01:00 AM
Do you have any proof of that? Or is it just your opinion? I know Roaf was quoted in the Star as saying Shields talked him into coming back for one more year and that's what he did, played one more year.

I didn't know this, but I still think the guys wanted to get the hell out when they saw Herm's O philosophy.

chief31
01-09-2008, 06:11 AM
So this has been bugging me for awhile. And I'm sure I am going to speared for this thread. But here goes.

If you had one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL, why in the heck would you try to run a passing offense? Especially with a rookie QB? It just doesn't make sense.

One of the major reasons that Herm was trying to run the ball this year, especially early on, was because our best every down threat was Larry Johnson. If you put a rookie QB in a pass happy offense behind a line that can't pass block, what good can possibly come of it?

Besides the fact, that he is trying to help give the defense some confidence. Our defense would have finished last in the league if Herm would have tried to pass as often as most people on these boards would have liked. The defense would have been on the field constantly.

Oh by the way.....It isn't like we have a boatload of prolific receivers to throw the ball to. A rookie WR is our best WR threat. When your best passing threat is a TE, you better be able to run the ball.

I'm not Herm Edwards' #1 fan for other reasons. But, I think he is taking far too much negative criticism because of the situation he was put in. The O-line has been neglected for years while the Dick Vermiel era tried to make a run at a championship.

All I'm saying is that if I were a head coach that inherited a team that had a poor offensive line, a rookie QB, poor WR's, a struggling defense, and my best offensive threat was a LJ.......Well then, I'd be running the damn ball too.

Aside from the opinion that Herm neglected the offensive line the past two drafts, I don't think that Vermiel left it in the shape that it is in now.

It was Herm Edwards who decided to release C Bober. A guy who had been the starting C for the Giants Super Bowl team.

It was Herm Edwards who decided to release the most promising tackle that we had left, in T Kevin Sampson. He thought it was wise to go with a pair of heavily injured and quite ancient pair of OTs in Turley and Terry.

It was Herm Edwards that released the one single young offensive lineman that had the Will Shields seal of approval, in Tre Stallings.

I realize that the rest of the staff has some say in those matters, as does C.P., but at the end of the day, those are decisions that are made by the head coach. Knowing how bad of shape that our offensive line was in, I think that allowing that group to go caused our situation to be a whole lot worse than it could have been.

It is Herms track-record for offensive line dealings that most irritates me about him. And this season was no exception.

Coach
01-09-2008, 10:38 AM
Aside from the opinion that Herm neglected the offensive line the past two drafts, I don't think that Vermiel left it in the shape that it is in now.

It was Herm Edwards who decided to release C Bober. A guy who had been the starting C for the Giants Super Bowl team.

It was Herm Edwards who decided to release the most promising tackle that we had left, in T Kevin Sampson. He thought it was wise to go with a pair of heavily injured and quite ancient pair of OTs in Turley and Terry.

It was Herm Edwards that released the one single young offensive lineman that had the Will Shields seal of approval, in Tre Stallings.

I realize that the rest of the staff has some say in those matters, as does C.P., but at the end of the day, those are decisions that are made by the head coach. Knowing how bad of shape that our offensive line was in, I think that allowing that group to go caused our situation to be a whole lot worse than it could have been.

It is Herms track-record for offensive line dealings that most irritates me about him. And this season was no exception.

Can you tell me what team picked up these budding o-line stars that you speak of? Only Sampson plays in the NFL anymore and he never saw the field. I think he may be a practive squad guy. If you can't make the depth chart on the KC O-line, you probably aren't that good to begin with.

Herm did ignore the o-line in the draft. And I think he would admit that he should have given it more attention. They(Herm and Carl) overestimated the talent they had at that position. But remember, the offense was still scoring points up until this year. It was the defense that was the laughing stock of the league. He addressed the defensive concerns and I think the defense will continue to improve. I think in this year's draft you will see the o-line addressed along with some help at CB.
I agreed with the draft of a WR in the 1st rd last year. And I still do. I think we got the 2nd best WR in the draft and we sorely needed a good WR. It needed to be done. And in my opinion, they need to get another WR threat because Bowe is the only one that is worth a damn.

Herm deserves some criticism. He did coach a 4-12 team. He did make some bad decisions. And I'm probably most disappointed about how Herm let the defense just give up towards the end of the year. I also hate all of the bonehead comments that Herm makes to the media. His comments and demeanor make him look unintelligent. I just think people are jumping on the "I hate Herm" bandwagon too quickly and for the wrong reasons.

Every post in this thread is about O-line and playcalling. Herm puts together the offensive playbook and scheme. But Solari called the plays down to the QB on 1st down. Herm inherited an old O-line that needed to be rebuilt. He inherited a QB that was on borrowed time. Give this team a chance to rebuild. Rome wasn't built in 1 year and the Chiefs couldn't have possibly rebuilt the entire o-line, QB, and defense in one off-season.

Hayvern
01-09-2008, 02:54 PM
Doesn't the Offensive coordinator do the playcalling?

My understanding on how this works is that the coaching staff all get together and come up with a game plan. That game plan will have a selective group of plays that they will likely weight more heavily (running plays) in certain circumstances. So if a game plan was formulated to favor the run on 1st and 2nd down plays, those plays would be called more often than not.

Yes, Solari calls the plays, however, if Herm does not have final say over what play gets put out on the field, then why is he carrying his clipboard?

Ultimately the responsibility for the play calling comes down to the coach. He as the final say of what is being called and should have final say in the game plan development.

Hayvern
01-09-2008, 03:06 PM
Give this team a chance to rebuild. Rome wasn't built in 1 year and the Chiefs couldn't have possibly rebuilt the entire o-line, QB, and defense in one off-season.

I have a lot of problems with Herm Edwards.

1. I don't think he is a good coach, he makes poor game decisions and it looks like he is "learning" how to coach a team. I guess that fits with whole "getting younger" approach, inexperienced players with an inexperienced coach.

2. I am not confident in his ability to prepare the players for the game. I think injuries are directly related to how well the players are mentally and physically prepared to play, and that is Edward's job.

3. His statements in the media are idiotic at best. He makes remarks about the players on the team that do not motivate them to play better, and he makes remarks about the fans that do nor endear them to him either.

I really think the biggest problem I have with Edwards though is his inexperience. I really feel he needs to spend about 5 years coaching at the college level before making the move to the NFL. He just does not seem to have the collective skills that he needs to coach a team in the NFL. I feel you have to judge him as a complete package and that package is mediocre at best.

I would like to know if you really think that all will be better next year? How many people really believe we will be a playoff contender next year. Right now, based on what I am hearing, I would say the best record would be 6 - 10.

Lazeye
01-09-2008, 03:26 PM
I say wait for this next year and draft to see what we get and our OC before we all start giving up on a season that has not even started. I also care less who our coaching staff is as long as we start putting together a winning playoff team and win the damn big one.

Chiefster
01-09-2008, 07:57 PM
I agree on the concept that LJ was the best tool in the offense considering the Line play didn't allow for many plays downfield...however mixing in some more screen passes, slants, quick outs and 4-routes would have allowed for greater variety and use of the other weapons in the offense, without putting Croyle under considerable pass rush pressure.

He did inherit an aging and undertalented team at many positions, but his use of the personnel he had was mediocre at best.

I could not have said this better, of course there are many, many things that I could not have said better.

Even with the swiss cheese, turnstile "O" line the utilization of extremely basic and predictable play calling was glaringly evident; which resulted in the defense being on the field much more then it should have.
:bananen_smilies046::sign0098:

wolfpack
01-09-2008, 11:04 PM
hermanator the offensive terminator dosnt even have a winning record,but wait he "has a plan". wonder if it is the same plan that got him run out of new york.

chief31
01-10-2008, 06:31 AM
Can you tell me what team picked up these budding o-line stars that you speak of? Only Sampson plays in the NFL anymore and he never saw the field. I think he may be a practive squad guy. If you can't make the depth chart on the KC O-line, you probably aren't that good to begin with.

Herm did ignore the o-line in the draft. And I think he would admit that he should have given it more attention. They(Herm and Carl) overestimated the talent they had at that position. But remember, the offense was still scoring points up until this year. It was the defense that was the laughing stock of the league. He addressed the defensive concerns and I think the defense will continue to improve. I think in this year's draft you will see the o-line addressed along with some help at CB.
I agreed with the draft of a WR in the 1st rd last year. And I still do. I think we got the 2nd best WR in the draft and we sorely needed a good WR. It needed to be done. And in my opinion, they need to get another WR threat because Bowe is the only one that is worth a damn.

Herm deserves some criticism. He did coach a 4-12 team. He did make some bad decisions. And I'm probably most disappointed about how Herm let the defense just give up towards the end of the year. I also hate all of the bonehead comments that Herm makes to the media. His comments and demeanor make him look unintelligent. I just think people are jumping on the "I hate Herm" bandwagon too quickly and for the wrong reasons.

Every post in this thread is about O-line and playcalling. Herm puts together the offensive playbook and scheme. But Solari called the plays down to the QB on 1st down. Herm inherited an old O-line that needed to be rebuilt. He inherited a QB that was on borrowed time. Give this team a chance to rebuild. Rome wasn't built in 1 year and the Chiefs couldn't have possibly rebuilt the entire o-line, QB, and defense in one off-season.

His track-record for neglecting offensive line is seven years long. How many QBs did he go through with the Jets, never to realize that a QB needs protection? That is what starts him on my bad side. Then he comes here and neglects the situation in two drafts.

As far as where those other O-line players are, there are plenty of unemployed O-linemen who would be better than what Herm decided to go with for the season. Those that he cut are only a few.

Then, for Rome not being built in one year... A.) this isn't Rome we are building, it's a whole lot smaller. B.) he has already had two seasons. C.) Aside from a young promising, not great yet, WR and a backup RB, I have not been impressed with his draft picks.

Hali...nothing. Pollard....Meh. Page...I don't think so. Tyler...Not yet. McBride....Squat. I want these guys to be great, but so far there is nothing there. Add in a Medlock and "OUCH" comes to mind.

jerhart
01-10-2008, 09:14 AM
Hali...nothing. Pollard....Meh.

c'mon....at least these two deserve a bit more than a 'nothing' and a 'meh'....at least I think so.

rbedgood
01-10-2008, 09:39 AM
His track-record for neglecting offensive line is seven years long. How many QBs did he go through with the Jets, never to realize that a QB needs protection? That is what starts him on my bad side. Then he comes here and neglects the situation in two drafts.

As far as where those other O-line players are, there are plenty of unemployed O-linemen who would be better than what Herm decided to go with for the season. Those that he cut are only a few.

Then, for Rome not being built in one year... A.) this isn't Rome we are building, it's a whole lot smaller. B.) he has already had two seasons. C.) Aside from a young promising, not great yet, WR and a backup RB, I have not been impressed with his draft picks.

Hali...nothing. Pollard....Meh. Page...I don't think so. Tyler...Not yet. McBride....Squat. I want these guys to be great, but so far there is nothing there. Add in a Medlock and "OUCH" comes to mind.


c'mon....at least these two deserve a bit more than a 'nothing' and a 'meh'....at least I think so.

I'd say Hali...average, and Pollard...ugh

nigeriannightmare
01-10-2008, 04:34 PM
Do you have any proof of that? Or is it just your opinion? I know Roaf was quoted in the Star as saying Shields talked him into coming back for one more year and that's what he did, played one more year.

I don't remember which Espn segment it was but they were all saying that it's highly unusual, especialy linemen, to notify the press first and that's what Roaf did, and thought that Will Shields did it to. This is fact, google it, In may he said he felt fine and wanted to be part of a subrerbowl push with the Chiefs, in July he retires....maybe Carl kept a secret from us but to the fans he retired before the coaches announced it.

Three7s
01-10-2008, 11:11 PM
Actually, how I remember it was, Shields was thinking about retiring for the 06 season, but Roaf told him not to, so Shields decided he wouldn't for one more year, but in the end Roaf retired before the 06 season started. Shields decided to stay for the 06 season, then retired. Correct me if I'm wrong.

prough91
01-10-2008, 11:15 PM
Actually, how I remember it was, Shields was thinking about retiring for the 06 season, but Roaf told him not to, so Shields decided he wouldn't for one more year, but in the end Roaf retired before the 06 season started. Shields decided to stay for the 06 season, then retired. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's true, too, but the year before that, Shields talked Roaf into playing one more year. It shouldn't have come to anybody's surprise when they retired. Also, I don't think it was so much to do with Herm, but they knew it would take a while for a new coaching philosophy to take hold and they knew they were going to be too old before it was actualized.

Three7s
01-10-2008, 11:18 PM
That's true, too, but the year before that, Shields talked Roaf into playing one more year. It shouldn't have come to anybody's surprise when they retired. Also, I don't think it was so much to do with Herm, but they knew it would take a while for a new coaching philosophy to take hold and they knew they were going to be too old before it was actualized.
Yeah, it really had nothing to do with Herm, they were getting old, and that's that. I just hope Herm has learned from his past mistakes and gets some O-linemen.

hermhater
01-11-2008, 12:06 AM
If you don't think they left because of Herm, why didn't they tell him?

Guru
01-11-2008, 12:13 AM
If you don't think they left because of Herm, why didn't they tell him?

Back off HermHater!!! :lol:

hermhater
01-11-2008, 12:13 AM
Back off HermHater!!! :lol:


Heh!
:lol:

prough91
01-11-2008, 12:14 AM
If you don't think they left because of Herm, why didn't they tell him?

Do you know that they didn't? I really don't know if they did or not. It's not that unheard of for them to just fax in their retirement announcement to their team before they announce it to the press.

hermhater
01-11-2008, 12:29 AM
Do you know that they didn't? I really don't know if they did or not. It's not that unheard of for them to just fax in their retirement announcement to their team before they announce it to the press.

OK, then why didn't Carl release the information to the public?

Was it because they didn't want to alert the other Divisional rivals to what wast happening (same this year with LJ)?

Betting on the NFL is a HUGE enterprise for the bookies (and betters) in Vegas.

Guru
01-11-2008, 12:31 AM
OK, then why didn't Carl release the information to the public?

Was it because they didn't want to alert the other Divisional rivals to what wast happening (same this year with LJ)?

Betting on the NFL is a HUGE enterprise for the bookies (and betters) in Vegas.

As well as Coach.

hermhater
01-11-2008, 12:39 AM
As well as Coach.

Heh again!

:lol:

hartelc
01-12-2008, 04:30 PM
This is my first post on these forums, but I feel I have to vent about my confusion about some of herm's playcalling. Has anyone ever seen a 2nd and 1 be anything but a run play while he has been here? I have seen most of the games in the past 2 years, but I don't remember it being anything but a run. That to me seems like a situation you might want to throw downfield on at least occasionally, but it's always a run. Yet he goes for it on 4th and 1 in the oakland game saying, I thought we could make a yard.

I was a little disappointed that kansas city picked him up in the first place given his mediocre record, and I've been up and down, sometimes I like what he does, and other times, I think he does the opposite of what the obvious solution looks to be.

Last years playoff game was painful, they put so many guys up to stop the run, and herm just kept trying to run it and ended up throwing on 3rd and long because they got no yards on 1st and 2nd down. If they are going to put so many guys up on the line to stop the run, you should throw it. larry johnson is good, but he can't gain good yards consistently against that.

hermhater
01-12-2008, 10:35 PM
This is my first post on these forums, but I feel I have to vent about my confusion about some of herm's playcalling. Has anyone ever seen a 2nd and 1 be anything but a run play while he has been here? I have seen most of the games in the past 2 years, but I don't remember it being anything but a run. That to me seems like a situation you might want to throw downfield on at least occasionally, but it's always a run. Yet he goes for it on 4th and 1 in the oakland game saying, I thought we could make a yard.

I was a little disappointed that kansas city picked him up in the first place given his mediocre record, and I've been up and down, sometimes I like what he does, and other times, I think he does the opposite of what the obvious solution looks to be.

Last years playoff game was painful, they put so many guys up to stop the run, and herm just kept trying to run it and ended up throwing on 3rd and long because they got no yards on 1st and 2nd down. If they are going to put so many guys up on the line to stop the run, you should throw it. larry johnson is good, but he can't gain good yards consistently against that.


Herm is a moron.

He makes terrible game time decisions consistently.

It has been painful to watch him with his predictability; just knowing what he is gonna have the OC call makes me cringe.

If I know what is coming, you don't think the opponents D coordinator knows?

wolfpack
01-12-2008, 10:53 PM
i dont know if the d-cord would but my grandma can guess and she`s been dead for 15 years now

Chiefster
01-12-2008, 11:34 PM
Heh again!

:lol:

You make me so proud.

hermhater
01-12-2008, 11:37 PM
You make me so proud.

Sniff...

:sign0103:

Chiefster
01-12-2008, 11:38 PM
Sniff...

:sign0103:

Now don't go gettin all emotional on me. :11:















Nite Crowd!

hartelc
01-14-2008, 09:53 AM
Herm is a moron.

He makes terrible game time decisions consistently.

It has been painful to watch him with his predictability; just knowing what he is gonna have the OC call makes me cringe.

If I know what is coming, you don't think the opponents D coordinator knows?
Yeah, I mean I can tell what's coming offensively by the chiefs too many times. People say the offense isn't as good, but the only real players they don't have that they had with vermeil and al saunders when they were scoring 30 points a game are some of the offensive linemen, and they have better receivers since they have bowe. Brody croyle isn't as good as trent green in the sense that he is inexperienced, but he can throw decent enough, but he's better in that he doesn't risk injury the way green did.

I wonder too why they throw to the run blocking te, forget his name as much as they do instead of more to bowe and gonzales. granted they threw more to gonzales at the end of the year, but there weren't enough passes to bowe, every time i saw it thrown his way he made spectacular catches.

hermhater
01-14-2008, 12:13 PM
Yeah, I mean I can tell what's coming offensively by the chiefs too many times. People say the offense isn't as good, but the only real players they don't have that they had with vermeil and al saunders when they were scoring 30 points a game are some of the offensive linemen, and they have better receivers since they have bowe. Brody croyle isn't as good as trent green in the sense that he is inexperienced, but he can throw decent enough, but he's better in that he doesn't risk injury the way green did.

I wonder too why they throw to the run blocking te, forget his name as much as they do instead of more to bowe and gonzales. granted they threw more to gonzales at the end of the year, but there weren't enough passes to bowe, every time i saw it thrown his way he made spectacular catches.

Bowe is a stud, don't get me wrong, but in the cold he was dropping A LOT of passes!

He isn't used to the cold weather I would guess.

A couple seasons playing in December at Arrowhead should fix that!

texaschief
01-14-2008, 05:32 PM
This is my first post on these forums, but I feel I have to vent about my confusion about some of herm's playcalling. Has anyone ever seen a 2nd and 1 be anything but a run play while he has been here? I have seen most of the games in the past 2 years, but I don't remember it being anything but a run. That to me seems like a situation you might want to throw downfield on at least occasionally, but it's always a run. Yet he goes for it on 4th and 1 in the oakland game saying, I thought we could make a yard.



I tried to stay away from this thread but this post just flat out pissed me off. I've heard this before not just from fans on this site, but in general football talk as well. On ANY down and 1 yard to go, if getting a first down is the primary objective, YOU RUN THE BALL!!!

I don't care how awful the offensive line is, they ARE athletes that weigh 300+ lbs. and are getting paid millions of dollars!!! Put those athletes in front of ANY NFL running back and those players should be able to get AT LEAST one yard. These players have the advantage of knowing the snap count, thus being able to get the jump on the defense.

We're only talking about 36 inches here. With running backs like Larry Johnson, Kolby Smith and Priest Holmes, you'd be an idiot NOT to call a running play.

ONE FREAKIN YARD!!!!!! When you only need ONE YARD, it's not the play calling, it's the players at that point.

I do agree there should be more diversity in the play calling, but when you need just one yard, you run the ball.

Hayvern
01-14-2008, 05:44 PM
I tried to stay away from this thread but this post just flat out pissed me off. I've heard this before not just from fans on this site, but in general football talk as well. On ANY down and 1 yard to go, if getting a first down is the primary objective, YOU RUN THE BALL!!!

I don't care how awful the offensive line is, they ARE athletes that weigh 300+ lbs. and are getting paid millions of dollars!!! Put those athletes in front of ANY NFL running back and those players should be able to get AT LEAST one yard. These players have the advantage of knowing the snap count, thus being able to get the jump on the defense.

We're only talking about 36 inches here. With running backs like Larry Johnson, Kolby Smith and Priest Holmes, you'd be an idiot NOT to call a running play.

ONE FREAKIN YARD!!!!!! When you only need ONE YARD, it's not the play calling, it's the players at that point.

I do agree there should be more diversity in the play calling, but when you need just one yard, you run the ball.

Well actually, I would argue this, but I guess since neither of us are coaches, our opinion rarely matters.

1. It is much harder to get a yard in the NFL than what you think. There are teams with better running backs, offensive linemen and quarterbacks who cannot gain a yard on a whim.

2. It is harder to get that yard when the defense knows you are going to run to get it. How many times do you see teams tackle a running back in the backfield trying to get that one yard?

How about a draw play on 2nd and one. Especially since the defense is probably thinking run anyway, why not fake them into the run and throwing a pass once in a while?

At any rate, your statement that you ALWAYS run the ball when you need a yard is not only incorrect, but more than a little foolish.

The fact that Edwards consistently chose to run the ball the way he did, shows number one, he had no confidence in the offensive line, and number two he has no confidence in the quarterback. Frankly, every team playing us this year knew that the first play of the game would be a running play. They knew the same things Edwards knew, that means to me, that you have to at least try something unexpected once in a while in order to keep the defense honest. We did that.. what? Three times this year?

hermhater
01-14-2008, 05:48 PM
Well actually, I would argue this, but I guess since neither of us are coaches, our opinion rarely matters.

1. It is much harder to get a yard in the NFL than what you think. There are teams with better running backs, offensive linemen and quarterbacks who cannot gain a yard on a whim.

2. It is harder to get that yard when the defense knows you are going to run to get it. How many times do you see teams tackle a running back in the backfield trying to get that one yard?

How about a draw play on 2nd and one. Especially since the defense is probably thinking run anyway, why not fake them into the run and throwing a pass once in a while?

At any rate, your statement that you ALWAYS run the ball when you need a yard is not only incorrect, but more than a little foolish.

The fact that Edwards consistently chose to run the ball the way he did, shows number one, he had no confidence in the offensive line, and number two he has no confidence in the quarterback. Frankly, every team playing us this year knew that the first play of the game would be a running play. They knew the same things Edwards knew, that means to me, that you have to at least try something unexpected once in a while in order to keep the defense honest. We did that.. what? Three times this year?

It took until Herm was desperate to do something unexpected.

2 passes to J.A. and 2 TD's.

Way to wait until the season is lost Herm!

Canada
01-14-2008, 06:06 PM
I tried to stay away from this thread but this post just flat out pissed me off. I've heard this before not just from fans on this site, but in general football talk as well. On ANY down and 1 yard to go, if getting a first down is the primary objective, YOU RUN THE BALL!!!

I don't care how awful the offensive line is, they ARE athletes that weigh 300+ lbs. and are getting paid millions of dollars!!! Put those athletes in front of ANY NFL running back and those players should be able to get AT LEAST one yard. These players have the advantage of knowing the snap count, thus being able to get the jump on the defense.

We're only talking about 36 inches here. With running backs like Larry Johnson, Kolby Smith and Priest Holmes, you'd be an idiot NOT to call a running play.

ONE FREAKIN YARD!!!!!! When you only need ONE YARD, it's not the play calling, it's the players at that point.

I do agree there should be more diversity in the play calling, but when you need just one yard, you run the ball.

If it is so easy,why not take a shot down the field and if u don't get it, then run for the first. Its like Herm decided to give up a free play every time.

Chiefster
01-14-2008, 07:37 PM
If it is so easy,why not take a shot down the field and if u don't get it, then run for the first. Its like Herm decided to give up a free play every time.


I agree; running on first down on nearly every single possession is a recipe for failure.

texaschief
01-14-2008, 08:24 PM
I agree; running on first down on nearly every single possession is a recipe for failure.

if all they were doing was running on first down and failing, where did all these 2nd or 3rd and 1s coming from? 9 yards on one or two plays seems to be successful.

but i guess that's just me

hermhater
01-14-2008, 08:28 PM
if all they were doing was running on first down and failing, where did all these 2nd or 3rd and 1s coming from? 9 yards on one or two plays seems to be successful.

but i guess that's just me

All of these???

There weren't that many guy.

cf2112
01-14-2008, 09:39 PM
This just in Herm Still sucks, he ruined the Jets and is now working on the Chiefs. You want proof here you go:

Regular Season 52-60-0
Postseason 2-4
Career Record 54-64-0

hermhater
01-14-2008, 09:41 PM
This just in Herm Still sucks, he ruined the Jets and is now working on the Chiefs. You want proof here you go:

Regular Season 52-60-0
Postseason 2-4
Career Record 54-64-0

I like your style!

Fire Herm!

:mob:

cf2112
01-14-2008, 09:43 PM
I like your style!

Fire Herm!

:mob:

I forgot to mention Carl swallows

hermhater
01-14-2008, 09:58 PM
I forgot to mention Carl swallows


Yep!

Wish he would swallow his pride and do the right thing for the team. Get the hell out of KC!

:mob:

Coach
01-14-2008, 11:37 PM
I agree that passing on 2nd and 1 is a good idea. At least occasionally.

rbedgood
01-17-2008, 12:28 PM
I tried to stay away from this thread but this post just flat out pissed me off. I've heard this before not just from fans on this site, but in general football talk as well. On ANY down and 1 yard to go, if getting a first down is the primary objective, YOU RUN THE BALL!!!

I don't care how awful the offensive line is, they ARE athletes that weigh 300+ lbs. and are getting paid millions of dollars!!! Put those athletes in front of ANY NFL running back and those players should be able to get AT LEAST one yard. These players have the advantage of knowing the snap count, thus being able to get the jump on the defense.

We're only talking about 36 inches here. With running backs like Larry Johnson, Kolby Smith and Priest Holmes, you'd be an idiot NOT to call a running play.

ONE FREAKIN YARD!!!!!! When you only need ONE YARD, it's not the play calling, it's the players at that point.

I do agree there should be more diversity in the play calling, but when you need just one yard, you run the ball.

Most good offenses find 2nd and short to be a "free" play that opens up the entire playbook. Calling a playaction pass is perfect in this situation. The defense suspects and has to defend the run, as 1 yard is a first down, but if you have an incomplete pass you have a very convertible 3rd and 1 to follow. Heck I'm not saying that video games are the answer, but if you've ever played Madden (any year), the consistent and rather annoying quote from Madden's commentary when you are in 2nd and short is, "Coaches love this situation, when you have 2nd and short it opens up the entire playbook...the other team doesn't know if you're going to run or pass. And if it doesn't work out, its not a big deal. You just huddle back up and go for the 1 yard next down."

Madden is far from a genius, but he is light years beyond Herm Edwards on this one...but since Herm doesn't have the Internet, he probably hasn't heard of video games either...:yahoo:

hermhater
01-17-2008, 02:50 PM
How many times did we actually have a 2nd and 1 this past season?

rbedgood
01-17-2008, 08:12 PM
I'll get back to you on that shortly HH...

Chiefster
01-17-2008, 08:15 PM
I agree that passing on 2nd and 1 is a good idea. At least occasionally.

...So is passing occasionally on first down.

hermhater
01-17-2008, 08:16 PM
...So is passing occasionally on first down.

Agreed!

:yahoo:

rbedgood
01-17-2008, 09:08 PM
Okay the numbers are in...the Chiefs had 14 2nd and 1 situations this last season.

They ran the ball 10 of these plays for a whopping 15 yards. The longest play running was 5 yards by LJ in week 1, and 4 of the 10 plays resulted in a 3rd down (to no gains, and 2 loss of yardage runs)

However they did pass the ball 4 times, going 3-4 for 58 yards and a TD, by the way none of the runs were for a TD, not even the 2nd and 1 from the 1...(LJ tackled for a loss, followed by a 3rd down TD pass to TG)

The point being passing on 2nd and 1 is very succesful, that is why many teams do it. The defense has to respect the run, which gives the QB a better chance to complete the pass and possibly gain big yardage.

Even if the Chiefs had stuck with their normal ratio, they passed the ball 335 times to 383 rushes...that's 46.6% of the time on normal plays, yet in this situation where the success rate of completion is higher they only passed 28.5% of the time. Balance and keeping your opponent off balance are major keys in the NFL, and whoever was calling the plays and making the decisions for both your team and mine (49ers) last year doesn't seem to understand that concept.

Canada
01-17-2008, 09:11 PM
Okay the numbers are in...the Chiefs had 14 2nd and 1 situations this last season.

They ran the ball 10 of these plays for a whopping 15 yards. The longest play running was 5 yards by LJ in week 1, and 4 of the 10 plays resulted in a 3rd down (to no gains, and 2 loss of yardage runs)

However they did pass the ball 4 times, going 3-4 for 58 yards and a TD, by the way none of the runs were for a TD, not even the 2nd and 1 from the 1...(LJ tackled for a loss, followed by a 3rd down TD pass to TG)

The point being passing on 2nd and 1 is very succesful, that is why many teams do it. The defense has to respect the run, which gives the QB a better chance to complete the pass and possibly gain big yardage.

Even if the Chiefs had stuck with their normal ratio, they passed the ball 335 times to 383 rushes...that's 46.6% of the time on normal plays, yet in this situation where the success rate of completion is higher they only passed 28.5% of the time. Balance and keeping your opponent off balance are major keys in the NFL, and whoever was calling the plays and making the decisions for both your team and mine (49ers) last year doesn't seem to understand that concept.

why don't you put a little thought and research into your posts. You are starting to sound like chiefster!! :lol: :bananen_smilies046: Hopefully Chan can explain that to Herm!!

hermhater
01-17-2008, 09:17 PM
Okay the numbers are in...the Chiefs had 14 2nd and 1 situations this last season.

They ran the ball 10 of these plays for a whopping 15 yards. The longest play running was 5 yards by LJ in week 1, and 4 of the 10 plays resulted in a 3rd down (to no gains, and 2 loss of yardage runs)

However they did pass the ball 4 times, going 3-4 for 58 yards and a TD, by the way none of the runs were for a TD, not even the 2nd and 1 from the 1...(LJ tackled for a loss, followed by a 3rd down TD pass to TG)

The point being passing on 2nd and 1 is very succesful, that is why many teams do it. The defense has to respect the run, which gives the QB a better chance to complete the pass and possibly gain big yardage.

Even if the Chiefs had stuck with their normal ratio, they passed the ball 335 times to 383 rushes...that's 46.6% of the time on normal plays, yet in this situation where the success rate of completion is higher they only passed 28.5% of the time. Balance and keeping your opponent off balance are major keys in the NFL, and whoever was calling the plays and making the decisions for both your team and mine (49ers) last year doesn't seem to understand that concept.

Wow those stats are even worse than I expected.

Gailey surely can't do worse than that, so I am guardedly optimistic about our new OC.