The ONLY political and religious thread allowed on Chiefscrowd

[mejohnm]

Even stopping every possible loophole out there. Is that really going to be enough?

[Chiefster]

Even stopping every possible loophole out there. Is that really going to be enough?

I think the doing away with the loopholes would be significant, but that's just me.

[mejohnm]

Me too, but why not do both? Stop the loopholes and tax the 250k the extra 3%. Wouldn't that help cut the debt even faster?

[Chiefster]

Me too, but why not do both? Stop the loopholes and tax the 250k the extra 3%. Wouldn't that help cut the debt even faster?

Perhaps initially, but thinking about who we are talking about includes those who are creating jobs, increasing the tax rate on them will give them no incentive to do so thus actually stifling job growth and slowing down the economy. If you create incentive making it profitable to produce jobs then more people work and pay income tax thus growing the economy. The president ran his second term campaign promising to "grow the economy from the middle out" which sounds great as campaign slogan but I have yet to run into anyone who can explain to me how he'll take a demographic with little to no real resources and grow the economy. I think you have to appeal to the job creators with the capital to invest in job creation.

[kilobytes]

im not about to live under the hob nail boots of these liberal Nazi's. that's not what i fought for. screw this country of spinless limp idiots. rot in hell

I would like to point out that the Nazi's were not liberal at all...in fact, they were quite the opposite...they were Fascists. They called themselves socialists to appeal to the working class, but of course that was a big lie. You still have conservatives today believing that they were socialists..Nazi's still fooling people...

Anyway, what's ruining the country is this two party system. Until a third party or independents rise up, it's going to hell.

[kcvet]

I would like to point out that the Nazi's were not liberal at all...in fact, they were quite the opposite...they were Fascists. They called themselves socialists to appeal to the working class, but of course that was a big lie. You still have conservatives today believing that they were socialists..Nazi's still fooling people...

Anyway, what's ruining the country is this two party system. Until a third party or independents rise up, it's going to hell.

does it really matter??? the libtards are practicing that and communism and every form of mind control they can to overthrow this country. and its working to perfection. its a machine. just like Hitler and Stalin. I still hear the echo's of Pislosi calling all non liberals Nazi's. no sir. it doesn't take a load a brick to fall on me to see that my country is being systematically destroyed right in front my eyes. America is weak and feeble minded. its spine and backbone have been picked clean like a chicken's neck. this is exactly what I and millions in the military have fought against. so just wave the white flag and stand up against the wall. as for me color my a** gone.

you guys work??? why?? just quit your jobs and suck on liberal t*ts. give your soles to god. cause your a** belongs to the liberals

Parasites are devouring the host culture! It's Free Swipe Yo EBT - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LWlkXRZ3CA)

[kcvet]

oh my whats this??? the same voting poll in Philly. remember 4 years ago??? they were charged with voting fraud. but before sentencing the racist AG Holder got the charges dropped so they could be back in 4 years.

http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/black-panthers-philly-e1352208506394.jpeg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7rkSmdDIIU&feature=player_embedded

>
>

well lets step inside. who's that painted on the wall hmmm?? now you see it now you uh.....don't

http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Politics/philly_mural2.jpg

>

Chicago. what's the Logo on the hat say???

http://www.weeklystandard.com/sites/all/files/images/obamahat.preview.jpg

the power of the vote has been neutered right in front of your eyes. laffable

[mejohnm]

Perhaps initially, but thinking about who we are talking about includes those who are creating jobs, increasing the tax rate on them will give them no incentive to do so thus actually stifling job growth and slowing down the economy. If you create incentive making it profitable to produce jobs then more people work and pay income tax thus growing the economy. The president ran his second term campaign promising to "grow the economy from the middle out" which sounds great as campaign slogan but I have yet to run into anyone who can explain to me how he'll take a demographic with little to no real resources and grow the economy. I think you have to appeal to the job creators with the capital to invest in job creation.

This tax revenue also does not need to be permanent. You all also know the Bush tax cuts were only temporory tax cuts. Many say they are working and some say they aren't. What is good about our government, is that we can try to find the middle ground. If adding the 3% to those making 250k does have a bad effect, then we can remove it again. Then we know 100% that adding tax to these "job creators" is not good. I am just saying we need to find a middle ground.

Also like to point, Nazi has nothing to do with socialism. Not by far, since I live in Germany. Shot, if you all want to know what it is really like here, I am more than happy to tell ya.

[Chiefster]

This tax revenue also does not need to be permanent. You all also know the Bush tax cuts were only temporory tax cuts. Many say they are working and some say they aren't. What is good about our government, is that we can try to find the middle ground. If adding the 3% to those making 250k does have a bad effect, then we can remove it again. Then we know 100% that adding tax to these "job creators" is not good. I am just saying we need to find a middle ground.

Also like to point, Nazi has nothing to do with socialism. Not by far, since I live in Germany. Shot, if you all want to know what it is really like here, I am more than happy to tell ya.

I think we can, or at least should, agree that the increased rate of taxation and regulation kills job growth especially in the small business market, and we haven't even addressed spending cuts, I believe they too have to be substantial.

I said nothing about Nazism or Socialism.

[Hayvern]

This tax revenue also does not need to be permanent. You all also know the Bush tax cuts were only temporory tax cuts. Many say they are working and some say they aren't. What is good about our government, is that we can try to find the middle ground. If adding the 3% to those making 250k does have a bad effect, then we can remove it again. Then we know 100% that adding tax to these "job creators" is not good. I am just saying we need to find a middle ground.

Also like to point, Nazi has nothing to do with socialism. Not by far, since I live in Germany. Shot, if you all want to know what it is really like here, I am more than happy to tell ya.

Here is one of the main issues that affect business. Uncertainty. If these temporary tax cuts were permanent tax cuts that did not have to be voted on to maintain, I think the job growth issue in latter years would have been different.

Businesses like to plan ahead, not having security on what new regulations and taxes they are going to face next year causes businesses to take the same approach you advocate for Government, that is "wait and see".

If I am deciding to hire another employee, but I know I am going to get nailed with additional taxes, additional regulations, and a healthcare law that no one even knows what is in it, I am going to wait and see what shakes out. In my business we are doing alright, making money, but not that much. I would like to hire two more employees, but I have a responsibility to those I already employ as well as those I would employ to ensure that I do not cause a situation that would make me lay them off. As a result, I am just going to sit back and wait and see what congress does. If they kick the can down the road again, I am just going to wait it out.

[tornadospotter]

Just want to ask, if obamacare says any employe that works 27 hours a week is considered fulltime. Is this true? If so how many part time jobs and scheduling those jobs, driving time and loss family time is going to happen to many of our Citizens who at least could count on 38 hours a week or even some that got 40 hours a week, at one employer? Lots of people are going to have to work 2 jobs to try to make a livable income. But they just do not get it. Obama will take care of me. That is all they think.

[kcvet]

already business's are laying off employee's and charging more for products

Elections Have Consequences, Businesses Laying off Employees Due to Obamacare and Regulations … NY Applebee’s CEO Zane Tankel says He May have to Lay Off Employees because of Obamacare. (Update: Papa John to do the Same)

link (http://scaredmonkeys.com/2012/11/11/elections-have-consequences-businesses-laying-off-employees-due-to-obamacare-and-regulations-ny-applebees-ceo-zane-tankel-says-he-may-have-to-lay-off-employees-because-of-obamacare-upd/)

Denny's to

President Obama's election victory ensured his Affordable Care Act would remain the centerpiece of his first term in power - but that has left some business owners baulking at the extra cost Obamcare will bring.


Florida based restaurant boss John Metz, who runs approximately 40 Denny's and owns the Hurricane Grill & Wings franchise has decided to offset that by adding a five percent surcharge to customers' bills and will reduce his employees' hours.


With Obamacare due to be fully implemented in January 2014, Metz has justified his move by claiming it is 'the only alternative. I've got to pass on the cost to the customer.'


Read more: Denny's to charge 5% 'Obamacare surcharge' and cut employee hours to deal with cost of legislation | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233221/Dennys-charge-5-Obamacare-surcharge-cut-employee-hours-deal-cost-legislation.html#ixzz2CM7syBdn)

[mejohnm]

I guess it is just that way over there with some companies saying okay we will do this and pay from our profits and some saying we will do it and make the employees or customers pay for it.

I see how healthcare is in Germany and that my taxes paid is about the same when I was in the USA. I just wonder why the taxes are nearly the same but in Germany we get much more....

[kcvet]

if you like twinkes bad news. its gone

Twinkies Gone Forever? - Hostess Theatens To Close Permanently If Strike Doesnt End Today - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO3zLzedFOw)

[mejohnm]

Interesting news about that company. Too bad that company couldn't get things in order since their first bankruptcy in 2004. Will never forget them Twinkies.

[kcvet]

RIP

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/twinkie-funeral-250x200.jpg


http://www.gwoltal.myfastmail.com/files/Twinkie%20Funeral.jpg

[Hayvern]

if you like twinkes bad news. its gone

Twinkies Gone Forever? - Hostess Theatens To Close Permanently If Strike Doesnt End Today - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO3zLzedFOw)

We should all know what will happen here. The company will file bankruptcy, lay off all 18000 union employees, sell off all of their assets.

The players will purchase most, if not all the assets back, including the brand names, they will then reopen the businesses without union labor and instantly they will be profitable again.

[kcvet]

We should all know what will happen here. The company will file bankruptcy, lay off all 18000 union employees, sell off all of their assets.

The players will purchase most, if not all the assets back, including the brand names, they will then reopen the businesses without union labor and instantly they will be profitable again.

if Obama doesn't offer a stim pack first. bail out those twinks

[Chiefster]

RIP

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/twinkie-funeral-250x200.jpg


http://www.gwoltal.myfastmail.com/files/Twinkie%20Funeral.jpg

:lol:

[kcvet]

a national retirement system ???

going after our 401K's, IRA's and retirement accounts?? claims its not fair to poor people. legal?? that's means a national retirement system. read on

A recent hearing sponsored by the Treasury and Labor Departments marked the beginning of the Obama Administration’s effort to nationalize the nation’s pension system and to eliminate private retirement accounts including IRA’s and 401k plans, NSC is warning.

The hearing, held in the Labor Department’s main auditorium, was monitored by NSC staff and featured a line up of left-wing activists including one representative of the AFL-CIO who advocated for more government regulation over private retirement accounts and even the establishment of government-sponsored annuities that would take the place of 401k plans.

source (http://www.nationalseniorscouncil.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89%3Aobama-begins-push-for-new-national-retirement-system&catid=34%3Asocial-security&Itemid=62)

can he do it??? who or what's gonna stop him???


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/mrcat/ears-pelosi2.jpg

[mejohnm]

So lets see if the execs at Hostess wants to keep their word in finding a buyer that will keep things as they are....

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/11/19/hostess-sun-buyout/?iid=EL

[Bike]

Now the Republicans in the House will cower in the corner like dogs with their tails between their legs in order to protect what's left of their genitals.
This is the weakest republican congress I have witnessed in my lifetime. When Boehner and McConnell both caved on Cut, Cap, and Balance, I knew right then that conservatives were in deep doodoo.

[Chiefster]

This is the weakest republican congress I have witnessed in my lifetime. When Boehner and McConnell both caved on Cut, Cap, and Balance, I knew right then that conservatives were in deep doodoo.


I have a feeling that conservatism in Congress is dead.

[Chiefster]

Reagan Vs. Obama - Social Economics 101 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h8O7V-WxWQ)

[spiman]

Gd Vid

[SamTheSkipper]

YAAAA nice post!

[Chiefster]

I love how the State Dept. is responsible for the lack of adequate security at our consulate in Benghazi but no one is to blame.

[Hayvern]

Well here we go again, my father taught me to never speak ill of the dead, but I have to say this.

One person who made a mistake and has paid for that mistake with their life is now changing the freedoms available to all of us in this country. We as a people are a pathetic lot.

This is exactly the same kind of thinking that the German people had that allowed Hitler to come to power. We are just as bad as any mob in history.

We are now in the days that Jefferson warned us about, were we are not only willing but we are demanding that our government take our rights away to provide us a continued misaligned sense of security.

And what happens when the next school shooting happens? What do we do then? Where do we draw this "safety" line? Do we suspend the first amendment in order to keep the movie industry from creating violent movies? Do we suspend the 4th amendment in an effort to better identify people who might commit a crime and remove their rights?

There are other options available to us, should we not try and fix some of those things before we go head strong into this mess.

[kcvet]

as usual the Israelis have the answers. alway have always will


http://oi47.tinypic.com/2qt9xer.jpg

[Chiefster]

Well in New York the new year is minutes underway. The catch your stomache roller coaster feeling that everyone is has is us going over that fiscal cliff.

LAND OF THE LOST INTRO - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSKIuJWRMaI)

[Chiefster]

Brady Bill Testimony - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKuUVduvoJo)

[Chiefster]

Listening to Secretary Clinton testify about the Libyan Consulate attack she angrily suggested that the motivations of the attackers were of no consequence by indicating that they made no difference because we still have four dead Americans and several injured. Well, might I suggest that the "difference" is an administration purposefully attempting to mislead the American public at a time when the truth might have been viewed as damaging to the Presidents political future.

The following is a Face Book quote, one I think is spot on:


The fact...is that it was neither. They weren't just out for a walk and suddenly decided to kill our Americans. It was a planned attack and our guys had inadequate security to begin with, all other countries had already pulled out because of that, and we had soldiers there who could have helped save our guys but were told to stand down and stand by and do nothing (except for 2 brave men who stood on the side of ethics and did the right thing). And, it matters because for weeks, even still today, they push this lie that it was because of demonstrations due to a video, the lie they keep pushing forward to cover something else up. That's why it matters. -Meredith Bauwens Disque
...Just my two cents.

[kcvet]

Listening to Secretary Clinton testify about the Libyan Consulate attack she angrily suggested that the motivations of the attackers were of no consequence by indicating that they made no difference because we still have four dead Americans and several injured. Well, might I suggest that the "difference" is an administration purposefully attempting to mislead the American public at a time when the truth might have been viewed as damaging to the Presidents political future.

The following is a Face Book quote, one I think is spot on:

...Just my two cents.

I read this attack was staged by Obama to support his sagging numbers in the polls. he was gonna stage this, rescue the hostages, be a hero and get reelected. but it went south. now its being called bengazigate. and like Nixon may well be his un doing. I hope

Benghazi and Obama. What you are about to read is HUGE if true. Could mean the end of him.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2959810/posts

[N TX Dave]

Did you know the that only hand guns were used in Sandy Hook School shooting and the AR-15 was left in his car. Listen to this NBC video. (http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495/#50208495)

So again the president uses the media to push his agenda with lies and put gun bans on.

[kcvet]

Did you know the that only hand guns were used in Sandy Hook School shooting and the AR-15 was left in his car. Listen to this NBC video. (http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495/#50208495)

So again the president uses the media to push his agenda with lies and put gun bans on.

his gun ban is just lip service to frightened liberals. I read his proposal. pure BS. in fact once again gun/ammo sales are thru the roof.

Severe and Worsening Gun and Ammunition Shortages Explained

The simple fact is that because of a perfect storm of political winds, threatened supplies, tragic events, huge demands, and limited production, the firearms and ammunition markets are not keeping up with current demand and won’t into the foreseeable future.

Read more: Severe and Worsening Gun and Ammunition Shortages Explained (http://clashdaily.com/2013/01/severe-and-worsening-gun-and-ammunition-shortages-explained/#ixzz2IqnuSpxB)

Hitler Finds Out Obama Is Taking Guns - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hey2RnrFku4)

[mejohnm]

NBC can say all they want. It was police officer Lt. Paul Vance that said the AR-15 was used. Still sad no matter what type of gun was used in that incident. I still do not see why people need guns. Is the crime so bad over there that you have to have them?

[Chiefster]

Still sad no matter what type of gun was used in that incident. I still do not see why people need guns. Is the crime so bad over there that you have to have them?

We, here, revere our constitutional right to defend ourselves with the use of firearms against anyone who would do us harm.

[mejohnm]

From what the second amendment says:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Those first 4 words though seems to have been forgotten.

I found this about that AR-15:
Connecticut State Police Clarify Sandy Hook Weapons Questions | Texas GOP Vote (http://www.texasgopvote.com/issues/stop-big-government/connecticut-state-police-clarify-sandy-hook-weapons-questions-005049)

[Chiefster]

From what the second amendment says:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Those first 4 words though seems to have been forgotten.

I found this about that AR-15:
Connecticut State Police Clarify Sandy Hook Weapons Questions | Texas GOP Vote (http://www.texasgopvote.com/issues/stop-big-government/connecticut-state-police-clarify-sandy-hook-weapons-questions-005049)

Those first four words do not in any way make illegitimate the right of the people to keep and bear arms... In fact the 2nd Amendment was established to give us, the people, the right to protect ourselves against our own government if need be.

[kcvet]

NBC can say all they want. It was police officer Lt. Paul Vance that said the AR-15 was used. Still sad no matter what type of gun was used in that incident. I still do not see why people need guns. Is the crime so bad over there that you have to have them?

yes. long as criminals have em so will we.

[mejohnm]

yes. long as criminals have em so will we.

So the wild wild west still lives on over there. Guess nothing has changed since I left.

[kcvet]

So the wild wild west still lives on over there. Guess nothing has changed since I left.

as long as the 2nd amendment sticks around

[N TX Dave]

So the wild wild west still lives on over there. Guess nothing has changed since I left.

Ask all the Jews if and why they needed them in 1939? Again ask the Chinese why they need them? Ask any oppressed populace if they need guns because they do not become oppressed as long as they can defend themselves.

That is why we want guns. We had one revolution because the monarch wanted to take guns away. It is something we have had since the beginning of our country and is part of our Constitution. What would you do if the government said you do not need internet at your house because you can learn to make bombs on it?

[mejohnm]

Ask all the Jews if and why they needed them in 1939? Again ask the Chinese why they need them? Ask any oppressed populace if they need guns because they do not become oppressed as long as they can defend themselves.

That is why we want guns. We had one revolution because the monarch wanted to take guns away. It is something we have had since the beginning of our country and is part of our Constitution. What would you do if the government said you do not need internet at your house because you can learn to make bombs on it?

Might as well get rid of all the books too, paper and pens while you are at it since you want to go to the deep end.

Being Jewish, if my family in Holland had guns during that time, it would not have matter since they pretty much would have been 6 vs 30 or so. Ok, maybe out of the 30, 20 or so would be dead but all 6 would probably be dead. 4 of them made it out at the end, better than none. The SS, always had huge numbers.

I just want to say, I love the Chiefs and like you all too. So no hard feelings.

[Chiefster]

Might as well get rid of all the books too, paper and pens while you are at it since you want to go to the deep end.

Being Jewish, if my family in Holland had guns during that time, it would not have matter since they pretty much would have been 6 vs 30 or so. Ok, maybe out of the 30, 20 or so would be dead but all 6 would probably be dead. 4 of them made it out at the end, better than none. The SS, always had huge numbers.

I just want to say, I love the Chiefs and like you all too. So no hard feelings.

While we differ politically mejohnm I can appreciate your passion and your right to express your opinion.


...Now, Go Chiefs!

[mejohnm]

Just hope 2013 is better for our Cheifs. And for America, I just hope for the best and the both parties can work to compromise and meet in the middle and get the debt down, less spending, and control the how welfare is being spent. To me, that is more important than gun regulations. Cannot regulate if there is no America....

[Chiefster]

Just hope 2013 is better for our Cheifs. And for America, I just hope for the best and the both parties can work to compromise and meet in the middle and get the debt down, less spending, and control the how welfare is being spent. To me, that is more important than gun regulations. Cannot regulate if there is no America....

...Couldn't agree more, we have got to get our fiscal house in order.

[AkChief49]

...Couldn't agree more, we have got to get our fiscal house in order.
Yes we do!! and if not, well I'm moving to Canada!

this guy tells it like it is.

Economic Freedom Speech - Avoid a Fiscal Cliff « Pierre Poilievre, MP : Results For You : Nepean - Carleton (http://www.pierremp.ca/budget/)

[mejohnm]

I already moved... to Germany. But I did it for love...

[Chiefster]

Yes we do!! and if not, well I'm moving to Canada!

this guy tells it like it is.

Economic Freedom Speech - Avoid a Fiscal Cliff « Pierre Poilievre, MP : Results For You : Nepean - Carleton (http://www.pierremp.ca/budget/)


If only we had a bright young mind, such as his, in our congress to articulate in such clear, concise terms the problems that socialism has caused here.

[mejohnm]

If only we had a bright young mind, such as his, in our congress to articulate in such clear, concise terms the problems that socialism has caused here.


Well, in Germany, socialism has not caused any problems. One of the strongest nations now and probably the only one to hold Europe together. The Germany believe, as I do now, there can be socialism and capitalism in a fiscal responsible way.

[matthewschiefs]

as long as the 2nd amendment sticks around


Even that won't help any of the problems with Guns. The fact is that to solve the problem with guns we would have to go back in time and prevent them from ever being made. They were made we can't undo that. Changing the 2nd amendment won't stop those who intend to use guns for crimes from using them. They have already shown they are out to break the law. Having Guns illegal would solve nothing as that would just be a 2nd law they would break. Sadly I really don't see any change in any law making a difference. It would just limit the people who have guns for hunting,show,sport have less rights. I'm not a gun person myself never cared to have one never will. But I really don't think the rights of people should be taken away just for the crimes of others. People can use whatever they want if they want to hurt or kill people. You can kill someone with a pillow if you wanted. Should we take those away to? The 2nd amendment is there for those who fallow the law. Those who don't won't care if it's there or not.

[Chiefster]

Well, in Germany, socialism has not caused any problems. One of the strongest nations now and probably the only one to hold Europe together. The Germany believe, as I do now, there can be socialism and capitalism in a fiscal responsible way.

To me that is a contradiction in terms. I think Thomas Jefferson put it best when he said: "A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have." You would best know because you live there but I simply don't understand how Socialism and Capitalism can long coexist.

[N TX Dave]

Well if we make guns illegal that will get them off the street right?

Just like it has worked for cocaine, crack and all other drugs correct? Do I have that straight?

To blame guns for killing people is like blaming cars for killing people instead of the drunk drivers or forks for making me fat or it's Hooters fault I like big boobs.

Stop blaming guns. Start teaching the value of human life again. There is just so much violence today TV shows, Movies, video games, real wars being conducted on TV and News media sensationalizing violence in our daily life.

[AkChief49]

Well if we make guns illegal that will get them off the street right?

Just like it has worked for cocaine, crack and all other drugs correct? Do I have that straight?

To blame guns for killing people is like blaming cars for killing people instead of the drunk drivers or forks for making me fat or it's Hooters fault I like big boobs.

Stop blaming guns. Start teaching the value of human life again. There is just so much violence today TV shows, Movies, video games, real wars being conducted on TV and News media sensationalizing violence in our daily life.
You're making way too much sense!!!:biggrin:

There are more than enough gun laws on the books. If only they chose to enforce them.

On Thursday, January 10, 2013, in the White House meeting of President Obama’s Gun Agenda Task Force, Vice President Joe Biden answered that question, telling NRA’s Director of Federal Affairs, James Baker, that the Obama administration didn’t have time to prosecute people for lying on the federal background check form.
In an article in The Daily Caller (1/18/2013) Biden said, “And to your point, Mr. Bakerregarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don’t have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately.”

Try checking a wrong box on your tax return and see what happens!!

[mejohnm]

To me that is a contradiction in terms. I think Thomas Jefferson put it best when he said: "A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have." You would best know because you live there but I simply don't understand how Socialism and Capitalism can long coexist.

I truly understand your point. When I came here I was a registered Republican. I did not like it at first how I thought things worked here. Then I experienced it. You know the saying, a happy worker is a motivated worker. Well, it is pretty much the same way except it goes for the people.

[Chiefster]

You're making way too much sense!!!:biggrin:

There are more than enough gun laws on the books. If only they chose to enforce them.

On Thursday, January 10, 2013, in the White House meeting of President Obama’s Gun Agenda Task Force, Vice President Joe Biden answered that question, telling NRA’s Director of Federal Affairs, James Baker, that the Obama administration didn’t have time to prosecute people for lying on the federal background check form.
In an article in The Daily Caller (1/18/2013) Biden said, “And to your point, Mr. Bakerregarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don’t have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately.”

Try checking a wrong box on your tax return and see what happens!!

:lol: Good point.

[mejohnm]

That was one of his executive orders, to start enforcing the laws. I do not see this one ban bill getting passed. I think it is just a stunt. From my time in the military I think some weapons shouldn't be on the streets, legally or illegally.

But when references come out like people getting killed by a drunk driver, makes me wonder if that driver really wanted to kill someone as these last shooters did...

[Chiefster]

I truly understand your point. When I came here I was a registered Republican. I did not like it at first how I thought things worked here. Then I experienced it. You know the saying, a happy worker is a motivated worker. Well, it is pretty much the same way except it goes for the people.

Herein lies the crux of the matter. When you overtax the half of the working class population to pay the non-workers, I'm not talking about those who have paid into the system and are now retired or the disabled, then you have a real problem. Sooner or later what happens is that the dwindling "middle class" becomes extinct as generational users and abusers of the "system" become greater and greater. Our government does absolutely nothing to encourage personal independence and, instead, encourages governmental dependency. As Margarette Thatcher was so eloquently quoted in that video posted above: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

[Chiefster]

http://imageshack.com/scaled/800x600/543/dd6n.png

[Chiefster]

http://imageshack.com/scaled/800x600/19/82k4.jpg

[Chiefster]

It's been suggested that with all that has been going on politically that perhaps it is time to revive this thread. So, I'll start with how I feel about Obama's handling of Syria.

Now becomes evident, to even liberals, the obvious and complete incompetence of this administration, and to think that he was actually awarded a second term. Perhaps if Obama hadn't gone off teleprompter and irresponsibly shot from the lip about red lines putting himself and the nation in a position to contemplate military action against a country that hasn't attacked us just in order to try and salvage what little credibility he had in the first place we wouldn't be in this mess. I am not for taking military action just merely pointing out the ineffectiveness of this administration. However, then a chance for diplomacy arrives when another off teleprompter rhetorical answer, this time by John Kerry, made it possible for Putin to swoop in with his "plan" to bail Obama out of his self made conundrum. I see this whole debacle as nothing more than a ploy by Obama to try and save face, except he'd already lost all credibility and reduced the United States to a global non-factor in the process. Anyone with half a brain knows that when Obama couldn't even get our closest ally, the UK, to follow him down that rabbit hole then unilateral military action against Syria was a bluff the likes that have not been seen since the "bay of pigs". Meanwhile, Putin has been playing Obama like a Stradivarius.

[TopekaRoy]

It's been suggested that with all that has been going on politically that perhaps it is time to revive this thread. So, I'll start with how I feel about Obama's handling of Syria.

Now becomes evident, to even liberals, the obvious and complete incompetence of this administration, and to think that he was actually awarded a second term. Perhaps if Obama hadn't gone off teleprompter and irresponsibly shot from the lip about red lines putting himself and the nation in a position to contemplate military action against a country that hasn't attacked us just in order to try and salvage what little credibility he had in the first place we wouldn't be in this mess. I am not for taking military action just merely pointing out the ineffectiveness of this administration. However, then a chance for diplomacy arrives when another off teleprompter rhetorical answer, this time by John Kerry, made it possible for Putin to swoop in with his "plan" to bail Obama out of his self made conundrum. I see this whole debacle as nothing more than a ploy by Obama to try and save face, except he'd already lost all credibility and reduced the United States to a global non-factor in the process. Anyone with half a brain knows that when Obama couldn't even get our closest ally, the UK, to follow him down that rabbit hole then unilateral military action against Syria was a bluff the likes that have not been seen since the "bay of pigs". Meanwhile, Putin has been playing Obama like a Stradivarius.

Well, said Chiefster.

Obama is clearly out of his element here. The problem is that he put the US in a "no win" situation.

First, he drew a line in the sand. He said that if Assad used chemical weapons, there would be harsh consequences. He never defined what those consequences would be and I don't think he had a plan-of-action to begin with. He thought that just making a threat of action would stop Assad from using chemical weapons. It didn't.

Then, after Assad used chemical weapons, he said. "Wait. We don't know if it was him or the rebels. But if it was him, we're gonna ... um ... do something and he'll be sorry!"

Then he goes on tv and tells America that Assad is another Hitler and we can't let him get away with using chemical weapons on innocent women and children. "We tried diplomacy, sanctions and threats and he still used chemical weapons. So, now we must use force."

"But not yet. Let's try some more diplomacy first!"

He says as Commander-in-Chief he has the authority to act without Congressional approval. But let's get it anyway. It just looks better if we have the full support of America behind our actions. The truth is if military action blows up in our faces (and it will), he can then say "don't blame me. I had the full support of Congress. This is what Americans wanted me to do."

So he calls on Congress to vote in favor of military action, then says "but wait. Don't vote on it, yet. Let's give diplomacy a chance first to see if our good friend Putin can talk Syria into voluntarily destroying their chemical weapons, under the supervision and watchful eye of the UN." The truth is, he knows that right now even democrats won't support him.

Then he says "this won't be another Iraq or Afghanistan. It would be just a tiny little focused limited strike to weaken the Assad regime. (But don't call it a 'pin-prick!'). He says we don't want to force Assad out of power. We just want to weaken him enough for the rebels to force him out of power!

Now if we don't act, we look weak and we embolden other dictators to do what Assad did (or worse). If we do act, Assad may attack Israel and we could draw Iran and Russia into the fray, possibly starting WWIII! If we go in with a limited, targeted strike, we accomplish nothing except to make the Middle East even MORE unstable and we still look weak. If we go in with overwhelming force we look like a bully that wants to force our will on foreign powers.

If the rebels oust Assad, then Muslim extremists could take power and make things even worse than when Assad was in control.

If Putin does succeed in getting Syria to destroy their chemical weapons, he looks like the hero and, while Obama will try to share the credit, he will look like the clueless, impotent, ineffectual leader he is.

Do you think we would have gotten into this predicament if Reagan was President? ... or even George W. Bush? I don't.

Obama screwed up. He drew a red line and then said he didn't draw it; the civilized world drew it. We can't change what happened, but here we are. What do we do now?

[Chiefster]

Well, said Chiefster.

Obama is clearly out of his element here. The problem is that he put the US in a "no win" situation.

First, he drew a line in the sand. He said that if Assad used chemical weapons, there would be harsh consequences. He never defined what those consequences would be and I don't think he had a plan-of-action to begin with. He thought that just making a threat of action would stop Assad from using chemical weapons. It didn't.

Then, after Assad used chemical weapons, he said. "Wait. We don't know if it was him or the rebels. But if it was him, we're gonna ... um ... do something and he'll be sorry!"

Then he goes on tv and tells America that Assad is another Hitler and we can't let him get away with using chemical weapons on innocent women and children. "We tried diplomacy, sanctions and threats and he still used chemical weapons. So, now we must use force."

"But not yet. Let's try some more diplomacy first!"

He says as Commander-in-Chief he has the authority to act without Congressional approval. But let's get it anyway. It just looks better if we have the full support of America behind our actions. The truth is if military action blows up in our faces (and it will), he can then say "don't blame me. I had the full support of Congress. This is what Americans wanted me to do."

So he calls on Congress to vote in favor of military action, then says "but wait. Don't vote on it, yet. Let's give diplomacy a chance first to see if our good friend Putin can talk Syria into voluntarily destroying their chemical weapons, under the supervision and watchful eye of the UN." The truth is, he knows that right now even democrats won't support him.

Then he says "this won't be another Iraq or Afghanistan. It would be just a tiny little focused limited strike to weaken the Assad regime. (But don't call it a 'pin-prick!'). He says we don't want to force Assad out of power. We just want to weaken him enough for the rebels to force him out of power!

Now if we don't act, we look weak and we embolden other dictators to do what Assad did (or worse). If we do act, Assad may attack Israel and we could draw Iran and Russia into the fray, possibly starting WWIII! If we go in with a limited, targeted strike, we accomplish nothing except to make the Middle East even MORE unstable and we still look weak. If we go in with overwhelming force we look like a bully that wants to force our will on foreign powers.

If the rebels oust Assad, then Muslim extremists could take power and make things even worse than when Assad was in control.

If Putin does succeed in getting Syria to destroy their chemical weapons, he looks like the hero and, while Obama will try to share the credit, he will look like the clueless, impotent, ineffectual leader he is.

Do you think we would have gotten into this predicament if Reagan was President? ... or even George W. Bush? I don't.

Obama screwed up. He drew a red line and then said he didn't draw it; the civilized world drew it. We can't change what happened, but here we are. What do we do now?

Nothing, it's "checkmate". We wait for 2016 and hope against hope Billary doesn't run, and the Republican's nominate someone with a spine.

Great reply, rep!

[mcclusterfan1982]

Yay politics!

[kcvet]

http://oi43.tinypic.com/b4sqky.jpg

[Chiefster]

http://oi43.tinypic.com/b4sqky.jpg

That's funny stuff! :lol:

[Chiefster]

http://imageshack.us/a/img62/2981/sak9.jpg

[kcvet]

https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s403x403/1098281_608793779172387_1880066036_n.jpg

[kcvet]

http://oi44.tinypic.com/fwq73a.jpg

[mejohnm]

From what I read here in Europe, UK politics were ready to support Obama but the UK citizens were not. Here in Germany, they didn't support it. I read a good article in the German newspaper how this was a smoke and mirror tactic, but who really knows as none of us are hearing what is really going on. Love kcvet images, goes for all of them no matter what party they are in.

[Chiefster]

From what I read here in Europe, UK politics were ready to support Obama but the UK citizens were not. Here in Germany, they didn't support it. I read a good article in the German newspaper how this was a smoke and mirror tactic, but who really knows as none of us are hearing what is really going on. Love kcvet images, goes for all of them no matter what party they are in.

I would not, at all, be surprised by this.

[tornadospotter]

The ONLY political and religious thread allowed on Chiefscrowd

All the post in this thread have been about politics for the most part. I am making a request to the members that believe in Jesus, to pray for my very best friend from JR high to High School. Pray for peace and comfort for him and his family. Pray for strength needed to for all who fight cancer. Pray that he feels God's loving hands on him and his family, pray that Gods will be done, and if it means he wins his battle to live longer in life to be with his children, or gaining eternal life by Gods grace thru his son Jesus. We do not know how it will end. But God does, so all of you who are Christian, please take a moment and pray for Jim, Tornadospotters best friend. When you do, also consider all those you know who needs your prayers.
Thank you
TS

[kcvet]

The ONLY political and religious thread allowed on Chiefscrowd

All the post in this thread have been about politics for the most part. I am making a request to the members that believe in Jesus, to pray for my very best friend from JR high to High School. Pray for peace and comfort for him and his family. Pray for strength needed to for all who fight cancer. Pray that he feels God's loving hands on him and his family, pray that Gods will be done, and if it means he wins his battle to live longer in life to be with his children, or gaining eternal life by Gods grace thru his son Jesus. We do not know how it will end. But God does, so all of you who are Christian, please take a moment and pray for Jim, Tornadospotters best friend. When you do, also consider all those you know who needs your prayers.
Thank you
TS

consider it done pal. may god's healing hand touch him and all who suffer

[Chiefster]

The ONLY political and religious thread allowed on Chiefscrowd

All the post in this thread have been about politics for the most part. I am making a request to the members that believe in Jesus, to pray for my very best friend from JR high to High School. Pray for peace and comfort for him and his family. Pray for strength needed to for all who fight cancer. Pray that he feels God's loving hands on him and his family, pray that Gods will be done, and if it means he wins his battle to live longer in life to be with his children, or gaining eternal life by Gods grace thru his son Jesus. We do not know how it will end. But God does, so all of you who are Christian, please take a moment and pray for Jim, Tornadospotters best friend. When you do, also consider all those you know who needs your prayers.
Thank you
TS

Done! My the hands of God who formed our bodies heal your best friend!

[Chiefster]

Well more than likely, as the Government shuts down, the "Republican" RINOs with tails tucked between their legs will sheepishly whimper as they negotiate the GOP surrender to King Obama and his minions the Democrats. The real losers here are We the People.

[kcvet]

Well more than likely, as the Government shuts down, the "Republican" RINOs with tails tucked between their legs will sheepishly whimper as they negotiate the GOP surrender to King Obama and his minions the Democrats. The real losers here are We the People.

i dunno look at the $$$ we save while they fight it out.

[TopekaRoy]

i dunno look at the $$$ we save while they fight it out.

They also said sequestration will kill the already bad economy, but it's no worse than it was a year ago and we have reduced the deficit slightly. A large portion of the Federal Government should be shut down, permanently!

The House and Senate agree on funding for everything except Obamacare. Here is a solution that any 10 year old could come up with: Fund everything except Obamacare! That is the only thing they are fighting over. They can continue to fight over it while funding the rest of the Federal Government. But Senate Democrats want to shut down the Government so they can blame Republicans for it. They know that they have a willing accomplice in the national news media who will continue to parrot their version of events and the gullible "low information" voter will eat up whatever they are spoon fed.

Obama says that House Republicans are holding the budget hostage unless they get 100% of their way. Here is the truth: The House has given the Senate 90% of what they want. It is the Senate that is holding the budget hostage unless they get everything they want.

If House Republicans have a backbone (which I doubt) they should stand their ground and get the message out that it is the Senate who shut down the government. They should send continuing resolutions to the Seanate piecemeal. Fund Social Security and let the Senate try to vote no. Fund Medicare, seperately. Same with the VA, HUD, and everything else. That will put the Senate in a position of voting against funding for programs that help the poor and disadvantaged---their core constituency.

[Chiefster]

They also said sequestration will kill the already bad economy, but it's no worse than it was a year ago and we have reduced the deficit slightly. A large portion of the Federal Government should be shut down, permanently!

The House and Senate agree on funding for everything except Obamacare. Here is a solution that any 10 year old could come up with: Fund everything except Obamacare! That is the only thing they are fighting over. They can continue to fight over it while funding the rest of the Federal Government. But Senate Democrats want to shut down the Government so they can blame Republicans for it. They know that they have a willing accomplice in the national news media who will continue to parrot their version of events and the gullible "low information" voter will eat up whatever they are spoon fed.

Obama says that House Republicans are holding the budget hostage unless they get 100% of their way. Here is the truth: The House has given the Senate 90% of what they want. It is the Senate that is holding the budget hostage unless they get everything they want.

If House Republicans have a backbone (which I doubt) they should stand their ground and get the message out that it is the Senate who shut down the government. They should send continuing resolutions to the Seanate piecemeal. Fund Social Security and let the Senate try to vote no. Fund Medicare, seperately. Same with the VA, HUD, and everything else. That will put the Senate in a position of voting against funding for programs that help the poor and disadvantaged---their core constituency.

I absolutely agree! The problem is that the RINO, establishment core of the GOP have resorted to turning their "guns", as it were, on the Tea Party Republicans providing Obama with divided opposition, so why would he even contemplate coming to the table to negotiate ANYTHING?

[mejohnm]

It is sad that the Americans cannot, nor want to, take care of Americans. This bill was made a couple of years ago now and there was enouh time for the parties to work out the bad parts of this bill out. But the Republicans just wanted to repeal it completely. It is funny here in Europe how Americans do not want Obamacare but want the ACA.

[kcvet]

what's in Obamacare. has anyone read it???


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

got them

[mejohnm]

I would say that out of all of my friends here in Germany, about 80% of them asked me today if I knew the difference between Obamacare and ACA. They know I am American but I wish they knew I am not stupid. Do not know what is going on over there but wish the heads would get out of their butts and at least compromise on something. For one thing, Obamacare is happening, now Congress should act to make this bill better for all.

[TopekaRoy]

what's in Obamacare. has anyone read it???

Actually, I have read the Affordable Care Act law. Every word of it. Not all at once, of course. That would be insane. But over the course of time I have managed to wade my way through it. It's not that hard if you understand a little "legalese," but you have to do a lot of scrolling up and down because a lot of paragraphs refer to other paragraphs with "except as defined in paragraph 1(C)(ii)" and such. If you are interested the complete text of the law can be found right here (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590/text). Keep in mind that 14 changes have already been made by Congress and 5 others have been imposed by Royal Decree ... I mean executive order of President Obama without the approval of Congress. More info (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/11/study-obamacare-has-been-amended-delayed-19-times/)

[TopekaRoy]

It is sad that the Americans cannot, nor want to, take care of Americans.

We all want to take care of those Americans that need help, but Democrats and Republicans disagree on what steps to take to best achieve that goal.


This bill was made a couple of years ago now and there was enouh time for the parties to work out the bad parts of this bill out. But the Republicans just wanted to repeal it completely.

That's not true at all. Your opinion is probably skewed by the fact that you are in Germany and the press there has presented a distorted picture of the facts. The truth is that Republicans have tried many times to make changes to the law but Democrats refuse to negotiate at all and won't even discuss making changes to it. Republicans have also introduced their own versions of healthcare reform but were "locked out" of the process when Democrats had a majority in both the House and Senate. (2008-2010). Republicans took control of the House after the 2010 elections specifically because they campaigned on stopping or reforming the Affordable Care Act. They have tried to work with Democrats, who control the Senate, to make the law better but have been rebuffed at every turn. All budgets originate in the House of Representatives, which the Republicans now control. If they want to represent their constituencies and do what their voters elected them to do, their only course of action at this point is to block funding for Obamacare.


It is funny here in Europe how Americans do not want Obamacare but want the ACA.

That is funny because Obamacare IS the ACA. They are exactly the same thing. The discrepancy is likely due to the fact that those Americans have no idea what is in the law. More of them oppose Obamacare because they don't like Obama. But a majority here in America oppose the law whether it is called Obamacare or the ACA.


I would say that out of all of my friends here in Germany, about 80% of them asked me today if I knew the difference between Obamacare and ACA.

Again, there is no difference. Obamacare is a nickname for the ACA.


Do not know what is going on over there but wish the heads would get out of their butts and at least compromise on something. For one thing, Obamacare is happening, now Congress should act to make this bill better for all.

There are many compromises that make the bill better but Democrats refuse to negotiate and even if you could get some of them to agree to change the worst parts of the law, Obama would veto the changes, and there are too many toadies in the Senate who are in lockstep with the almighty Obama for the house and Senate to get the 60%+ majority required to override his veto. For any significant change to come we (Republicans) will have to wait until after the mid-term elections (Nov. 2014) and gain control of both the House and the Senate.

[Chiefster]

I would say that out of all of my friends here in Germany, about 80% of them asked me today if I knew the difference between Obamacare and ACA. They know I am American but I wish they knew I am not stupid. Do not know what is going on over there but wish the heads would get out of their butts and at least compromise on something. For one thing, Obamacare is happening, now Congress should act to make this bill better for all.

The problem as I see it is that Obama is acting less like the leader of a free people elected from the masses and more like a dictator. I actually see the ACA and Obamacare as separate laws. The ACA is what congress voted on and Obama signed into law and Obamacare is what he's done to the ACA since then. Obama has unilaterally, indifference to the Constitution, changed the law as it was written and passed by congress giving exemptions and delays to his buddies. What Obama has done is actually an impeachable offense which is why, as the original framer of the Constitution, James Madison placed in control of the House of Representatives the purse strings in order to reign in an Executive branch that overreaches its authority without putting the country through an impeachment process.

[mejohnm]

I try to pay close attention to the bills being made up in Congress, could you link me to the bills that the Republicans were trying tobring as a compromise?

Now you all claim Obama has changed the law, from the first link here is a passage which does not say he changed the law, just how it is executed which is his job. In fact it is the Republicans in Congress that are trying to be the executive branch by delaying this law that was passed by the Legislature branch.

Mr. Obama has also acted on his own, declaring five separate delays this year. Most recently he announced one-year delays on checking the applicants for exchanges to see if they should have employer-based coverage.

Now to say he has given exemptions to his buddies, or toCongress, etc. There have been so many reports that these exemptions are nottrue. In fact, a discussion show here in Germany brought this up and this wasbrought up. Where ever this was brought up, it just is not fact. Big business doget an extra year to implement.

Now why cannot the Republicans just let this go. If itindeed turns out to be bad, then it can be reversed. And if they really did tryto make another bill for healthcare or to change this without getting rid ofthe good parts, like coverage for people with pre-conditions under the sameprice, then I guess the rest of the world also missed it because no one seemsto have heard it.

Around the world, Americans, or in this case, the republicans are being made out to be heartless people. I was republican when Imoved to Germany. I was very pro-Bush. After some years here and seeing how a good system can work, it woke me up and I could see how bad things really are in the USA. Love the USA, love the Chiefs, but I do not see USA staying in one piece if this keeps up. That is with either party being President or not. The President cannot lead a room full of people that do not want to be lead.

[kcvet]

The problem as I see it is that Obama is acting less like the leader of a free people elected from the masses and more like a dictator. I actually see the ACA and Obamacare as separate laws. The ACA is what congress voted on and Obama signed into law and Obamacare is what he's done to the ACA since then. Obama has unilaterally, indifference to the Constitution, changed the law as it was written and passed by congress giving exemptions and delays to his buddies. What Obama has done is actually an impeachable offense which is why, as the original framer of the Constitution, James Madison placed in control of the House of Representatives the purse strings in order to reign in an Executive branch that overreaches its authority without putting the country through an impeachment process.

this, he was elected by the liberal MSM. not the people. IMO he is a dictator and an illegal alien.

[Chiefster]

I try to pay close attention to the bills being made up in Congress, could you link me to the bills that the Republicans were trying tobring as a compromise?

Now you all claim Obama has changed the law, from the first link here is a passage which does not say he changed the law, just how it is executed which is his job. In fact it is the Republicans in Congress that are trying to be the executive branch by delaying this law that was passed by the Legislature branch.

Mr. Obama has also acted on his own, declaring five separate delays this year. Most recently he announced one-year delays on checking the applicants for exchanges to see if they should have employer-based coverage.

Now to say he has given exemptions to his buddies, or toCongress, etc. There have been so many reports that these exemptions are nottrue. In fact, a discussion show here in Germany brought this up and this wasbrought up. Where ever this was brought up, it just is not fact. Big business doget an extra year to implement.

Now why cannot the Republicans just let this go. If itindeed turns out to be bad, then it can be reversed. And if they really did tryto make another bill for healthcare or to change this without getting rid ofthe good parts, like coverage for people with pre-conditions under the sameprice, then I guess the rest of the world also missed it because no one seemsto have heard it.

Around the world, Americans, or in this case, the republicans are being made out to be heartless people. I was republican when Imoved to Germany. I was very pro-Bush. After some years here and seeing how a good system can work, it woke me up and I could see how bad things really are in the USA. Love the USA, love the Chiefs, but I do not see USA staying in one piece if this keeps up. That is with either party being President or not. The President cannot lead a room full of people that do not want to be lead.

Here's a google search regarding the House bills:

https://www.google.com/search?q=House+bill+proposals+to+defund%2C+delay+a nd+repeal+Obamacare&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I don't know where you're getting your news but it would help if you provided links that gave a frame of reference. I have been following this closely almost everyday and from what I understand is first the House GOP Offered to fund the entire government except for Obamacare, then they offered to only delay the individual mandate and repeal the medical device tax (a bipartisan issue), then, if I'm not mistaken, it was to just delay the individual mandate like Obama did with big business in order to make it fair. I have found an article of the Fox News website that confirms the claims of exemptions.


Now what? - The shutdown clock hit zero as Senate Democrats were flatly refusing anything other than continuing current government funding. Democrats even voted (much to the delight of Republican Senate challengers) not to delay the law’s mandatory insurance requirement for individuals to match a delay granted to big businesses by the White House. Senate Democrats also voted down a House-passed proposal that would have ended an ObamaCare exemption for lawmakers and their staffs. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid vowed no negotiations with Republicans. But can that last? Not likely

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/01/shutdown-greets-obamacare-launch/

Here's more:


When ObamaCare passed in 2010, Sen. Chuck Grassley won approval for an amendment that would require members of Congress and congressional staff to enroll for health insurance through the ObamaCare exchanges. Because of this provision, the federal government would no longer by able to pay the 70+% of premiums it covered for members' and staff's health insurance. The Obama Administration issued a waiver to this rule early this year.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/09/30/Round-3-House-Pushes-End-to-ObamaCare-Exemption-for-Congress

Here's one about delays and exemptions:

http://freebeacon.com/the-obamacare-waivers-explained/

Obama has changed the law pure and simple. The House GOP is doing what the majority of the American people are asking them to because this law was forced upon us. It was shoved through both houses while under Democratic control and signed by Obama ahead of the 2010 elections because he knew he didn't have a prayer after the elections. This law is extremely unpopular but it is what the Democrats wanted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imUyBlc7NHQ

Now it is true that Americans did not want a shutdown either but it has been the House GOP that has continually tried to negotiate compromise and Obama and the Democrats would have none of it. The House GOP has been listening to their constituency and acting accordingly which is THEIR job as legislators, not only to introduce but to amend law which is why they can't just roll over and let this go as you put it. The price of these exchanges are outrageous and provides zero incentive for those 27-30 years old to enroll in this program which is the demographic needed to make this law "work". Most young people will simply pay the $95.00 fine when needed.

I would encourage you not to just get your news about what is going on in America from a German based news source.

One more link: http://www.house.gov/

[TopekaRoy]

I try to pay close attention to the bills being made up in Congress, could you link me to the bills that the Republicans were trying to bring as a compromise?

I wouldn't say "compromise." "Alternative" would be more accurate. Republicans have introduced many healthcare reform Bills going all the way back to 2003, long before Democrats pushed through the ACA without a single Republican vote in the Senate. One of the biggest would be the Patients' Choice Act (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/s1099/text) S. 1099. Then there are ...

The American Healthcare Reform Act (http://www.policymic.com/articles/64873/obamacare-facts-republican-alternative-to-the-aca-is-better-for-millennials), H. R. 3121 (full text (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr3121/text)) September 18, 2013
House Resolution 9 (http://www.gop.gov/indepth/pledge/healthcare). January 19, 2011
The Empowering Patients First Act (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3400/text), H. R. 3400 (full text), July 30, 2009
John McCain's Health Tax Credit (http://healthblog.ncpa.org/john-mccains-health-tax-credit/), July, 2008

There are many others, as well, but I'm not going to take the time to find and list them all. You can do that yourself if you like. All of these were found quite easily with a quick Google search for "Republican Alternatives to the ACA." They didn't tell you about any of those in the German press, did they? I'm not surprised. The American press has given scant coverage to them as well.

Aside from the myriad of National proposals to reform health care, many States have introduced their own reforms, like Massachusetts did with "RomneyCare." Just one example would be the reforms (http://www.thestate.com/2013/02/20/2641315/sc-republicans-present-alternative.html) introduced in South Carolina. Many feel that the one-size-fits-all nationwide approach is not the best solution. What works for Massachusetts or New York may not work for Montana or North Dakota.


Now you all claim Obama has changed the law, from the first link here is a passage which does not say he changed the law, just how it is executed which is his job. In fact it is the Republicans in Congress that are trying to be the executive branch by delaying this law that was passed by the Legislature branch.

["]Mr. Obama has also acted on his own, declaring five separate delays this year. Most recently he announced one-year delays on checking the applicants for exchanges to see if they should have employer-based coverage.["]

You are referring, of course to the Constitutional authority given to the President to enforce existing federal laws. The Constitution does give the President wide latitude in deciding how he will allocate resources to enforce laws. He has in the past abused this authority by refusing to enforce immigration laws requiring the deportation of illegal aliens, for example. What the Constitution does not give the President the authority to do is to ignore existing laws or, worse yet, unilaterally change those laws by executive order. Obama has an obligation to enforce the laws. He thinks he has the option of enforcing, not enforcing or changing the laws. He does not.

Congress, on the other hand, does have the authority to write, introduce or change existing laws. They are legislators. That is exactly what legislators are elected to do---legislate.


Now to say he has given exemptions to his buddies, or to Congress, etc. There have been so many reports that these exemptions are not true. In fact, a discussion show here in Germany brought this up and this was brought up. Where ever this was brought up, it just is not fact. Big business[es] do get an extra year to implement.


Restaurants in Nancy Pelosi's (D-Calif.) district have exemptions. As Americans for Prosperity notes, “When ObamaCare was in its infancy, the Obama administration began handing out waivers to employers for various other provisions of the law. In early 2011, the administration issued waiver after waiver to politically connected businesses [such as] restaurants and hip nightclubs in former-Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s district.”
...
Samaritan Health-Care Ministry has an exemption. They “led a successful fight to get language inserted into the law that specifically exempts health care sharing ministries from the individual mandate, which would have required that members buy a traditional health insurance policy or pay significant penalties. (source (http://reason.com/blog/2013/10/01/who-gets-an-exemption-from-obamacare))”

In addition he has delayed the employer mandate until after the midterm elections, (so Democrats aren't hurt by the legislation) removed the requirement for businesses to report employee insurance status to the IRS, delayed the cap on out of pocket expenses for individuals (to help insurance companies line their pockets), and delayed the requirement for individuals to prove that they qualify for federal aid for insurance (to get as many people as possible into the state exchanges). He does not have the authority to do any of this. But he refuses to give individuals the same one year delay to get insurance so the exchanges can get more organized and they can get better educated on what their options are. I am legally required to get insurance by the end of the year but I can't sign up (or even find out what options are available) on the website because it keeps crashing, or by phone, because they don't have the staff to take the calls!


Now why cannot the Republicans just let this go[?]

Because they promised the people that elected them that they would do everything in their power to fix it. I know most politicians don't keep their promises, but at least these guys (and gals) are trying to.

Because they feel a moral obligation to stop a law that is forcing business to lay employees off or cut their hours in order to stay in business.

Because the law is already causing premiums to skyrocket.

Because the requirement for insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions (as it is currently written) will bankrupt them and put them out of business. Imagine if you didn't have to buy auto insurance until after you had an accident and they still had to pay to fix your car. How long would they stay in business?

Because people who are happy with their existing coverage and want to keep it, can't, because their employers are either switching to cheaper plans or raising the premiums so high that they can no longer afford them.

Because the individual mandate requiring people to buy a product (healthcare insurance) against their will is a violation of their basic human right to engage, or not engage in commerce and spend their own money as they see fit.


If it indeed turns out to be bad, then it can be reversed.

By then it will be too late. The damage to the economy will already have been massive. The inevitable delays and rationing of health care may cause people to die waiting for treatment. In Canada, people who have been in car accidents wait an average of 12 hours in emergency rooms for treatment. We don't want that here.

And besides, no "entitlement" once fully implemented has ever been rescinded or rolled back. Our nation is already over $17 trillion in debt and can't afford the additional cost. But once Obamacare starts their will be no way to stop it.


And if they really did try to make another bill for healthcare or to change this without getting rid of the good parts, like coverage for people with pre-conditions under the same price, then I guess the rest of the world also missed it because no one seems to have heard it.

Maybe you can share this post with them and have them click on some of the links above.


Around the world, Americans, or in this case, the republicans are being made out to be heartless people. I was republican when Imoved to Germany. I was very pro-Bush. After some years here and seeing how a good system can work, it woke me up and I could see how bad things really are in the USA.

We are not Germany and don't want to be, as great a country as it is. We have different needs, different freedoms, a different history and different laws. What works there (however well it works) will not necessarily work here.


The President cannot lead a room full of people that do not want to be lead.

What lead? The President has not led since he took office. All he has done is continue to campaign and cast blame. How can he lead when he refuses to negotiate or even talk to Republicans about making compromises that every one would be happy with? House Republicans are trying to pass continuing resolutions that will keep open at least the most essential parts of government until some kind of deal can be reached and he has promised to veto every one of them. It's "his way or the highway" as far as he is concerned. He wants to keep the Government shut down as long as possible to do as much damage as possible to the Republican party.

But it's not going to work. It will backfire on him eventually.

[mejohnm]

I guess only time will tell what will happen. In the meantime, I will read those bills.

[Chiefster]

This has been the most partisan, divisive President I can remember.

[Chiefster]

Now we hear that a crazed woman attempted to ram the White House gates and lead a high speed chase up Constitution Ave. ending somewhere on Capital Hill. Shots where fired. This will be spun by the left to be the Republicans fault as well, because after all they are mean spirited and evil. Throughout this whole ordeal it has been the Democrats who have engaged in mean spirited, name calling and partisan demonizing which is often what they resort to in the absence of a legitimate argument.

[mejohnm]

Well, if we go back to the root of this shutdown, it is because of Republicans being against the ACA. This bill was passed in Congress. As you all have shown, other bills were also brought up but did not pass and never became law. The ACA even went through the SC and was upheld. Now if the Republican party wants to get rid or change this law, they have to get the votes, not stop the government. It is simple as that.

[Chiefster]

Well, if we go back to the root of this shutdown, it is because of Republicans being against the ACA. This bill was passed in Congress. As you all have shown, other bills were also brought up but did not pass and never became law. The ACA even went through the SC and was upheld. Now if the Republican party wants to get rid or change this law, they have to get the votes, not stop the government. It is simple as that.


I don't know how to make this more clear. They are doing what their constituency wants them to do, and what is within their duty under the constitution. It is the Democrats who want this shutdown which is why they will not even so much as negotiate with the Republicans. Of course it was passed by a Democratically controlled Congress and barely upheld by the Supreme Court as a tax. Republicans have done all they can to avoid a government shutdown, it is amazing to me how it is always the Republicans fault while the Democrats bare zero culpability in this whole ordeal.

[tornadospotter]

Far as I am concerned, the government shut down should start at the top, and trickle down! The founding fathers did not receive the salary or perks of todays leaders, so they who control this nation, better not be spending any of our money for anything! That means the President needs to be providing from his personal money, for his family, and so also congress, with no salary until all employees are paid. Government shutdown means no travel by President on our money! No income for there staff, so no chef in the White House, the first lady will have to do all the cooking and cleaning.

[Chiefster]

Far as I am concerned, the government shut down should start at the top, and trickle down! The founding fathers did not receive the salary or perks of todays leaders, so they who control this nation, better not be spending any of our money for anything! That means the President needs to be providing from his personal money, for his family, and so also congress, with no salary until all employees are paid. Government shutdown means no travel by President on our money! No income for there staff, so no chef in the White House, the first lady will have to do all the cooking and cleaning.

I could not have said it any better!

[tornadospotter]

While I do not care if the Government is shut down. Defense of our Nation, should be maintained. But why is closing open air monuments with added security and barriers now needed. It is sickening to read stories of the added security to National Monuments, to keep the owners from visiting, because our leadership says government is closed, so we are going to spend more money to keep you out, rather than what we would spend allowing you in. Why is the National Weather Service online shut down? I sure that is a huge expense to not maintain that web site that they are still doing for Emergence Weather Information! Bunch of BS smoke and mirrors going on by a worthless Leadership of our Nation, and lack of true leadership of current residents of the White House, and his fellow party members! All to get use to fold, and cry out, well we will not fold and we will cry out, but we will do it the American Way. Start packing, your time is about gone. Time to vote you all out!

Sorry, I really do dislike this Thread, because it has nothing to do with the Chiefs. But it is about our Nation, and I hate to post in this thread, because I do not debate, I just read and believe from my instinct what is right, and what is wrong. I am a country boy, and I will survive.

[tornadospotter]

Senate Bill 987, the Free Flow of Information Act is described by the Senate as a bill to maintain the free flow of information to the public by providing conditions for the federally compelled disclosure of information by certain persons connected with the news media.


Anybody have any info on this, and what you think it means?

[Chiefster]

While I do not care if the Government is shut down. Defense of our Nation, should be maintained. But why is closing open air monuments with added security and barriers now needed. It is sickening to read stories of the added security to National Monuments, to keep the owners from visiting, because our leadership says government is closed, so we are going to spend more money to keep you out, rather than what we would spend allowing you in. Why is the National Weather Service online shut down? I sure that is a huge expense to not maintain that web site that they are still doing for Emergence Weather Information! Bunch of BS smoke and mirrors going on by a worthless Leadership of our Nation, and lack of true leadership of current residents of the White House, and his fellow party members! All to get use to fold, and cry out, well we will not fold and we will cry out, but we will do it the American Way. Start packing, your time is about gone. Time to vote you all out!

Sorry, I really do dislike this Thread, because it has nothing to do with the Chiefs. But it is about our Nation, and I hate to post in this thread, because I do not debate, I just read and believe from my instinct what is right, and what is wrong. I am a country boy, and I will survive.

Exactly! House GOP has even given up on defunding Obamacare and just ask that the exemptions be rescinded, and again the answer from the Senate democrats and the White House is a resounding NO. There was more security forces sent to the WW II memorial to keep veterans out than there was sent to the consulate in Benghazi to protect our own Ambassador.

[Chiefster]

Senate Bill 987, the Free Flow of Information Act is described by the Senate as a bill to maintain the free flow of information to the public by providing conditions for the federally compelled disclosure of information by certain persons connected with the news media.


Anybody have any info on this, and what you think it means?

http://www.spj.org/pdf/s-987-ffia-schumer-graham.pdf

[mejohnm]

I don't know how to make this more clear. They are doing what their constituency wants them to do, and what is within their duty under the constitution. It is the Democrats who want this shutdown which is why they will not even so much as negotiate with the Republicans. Of course it was passed by a Democratically controlled Congress and barely upheld by the Supreme Court as a tax. Republicans have done all they can to avoid a government shutdown, it is amazing to me how it is always the Republicans fault while the Democrats bare zero culpability in this whole ordeal.
Yet the other constituents also want their representatives to keep the bill alive. They should get the votes by getting the representatives that are needed into Congress. That is the proper way. And regarding the closures of monuments, the government is shutdown. Perimeter security is still cheaper than security when these things are open. I am also though for no pay for the government when it is shutdown. As I said before, the government is shutdown so all should feel it, not just us.

[TopekaRoy]

I just saw this. It's really funny but would be even funnier if it wasn't so very, very sad ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx2scvIFGjE

[mejohnm]

That is what I have been talking about. It is the number 1 joke now in Germany, and most of the world. Sad indeed. I just hope the Chiefs win this Sunday so we can forget about this all for at least those 3 hours.

[mejohnm]

Couldn't be explain any better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q-OyhPDobY

[Chiefster]

Yet the other constituents also want their representatives to keep the bill alive. They should get the votes by getting the representatives that are needed into Congress. That is the proper way. And regarding the closures of monuments, the government is shutdown. Perimeter security is still cheaper than security when these things are open. I am also though for no pay for the government when it is shutdown. As I said before, the government is shutdown so all should feel it, not just us.

Some 56% of Americans want this law gone. The number of Representatives is not the problem it's the number of Senate Republicans. The House GOP is doing what is proper. The President unilaterally CHANGED the law as it was written, passed and signed which is unconstitutional, and the Constitution provides the House of Representatives the authority to withhold funding in just these kinds of cases, when the President overreaches his authority. Had Obama not changed the law without the consent of congress then you would be correct in assessment.

[Chiefster]

The House Republicans have offered to fund Obamacare as written and passed without the exemptions and the President along with the Senate Democrats rejected it.

[mejohnm]

Some 56% of Americans want this law gone. The number of Representatives is not the problem it's the number of Senate Republicans. The House GOP is doing what is proper. The President unilaterally CHANGED the law as it was written, passed and signed which is unconstitutional, and the Constitution provides the House of Representatives the authority to withhold funding in just these kinds of cases, when the President overreaches his authority. Had Obama not changed the law without the consent of congress then you would be correct in assessment.

Then that case the Republicans should go to the proper branch, I believe the SC in this case but they have not. This makes many believe the Republicans are just blowing hot air. If any President would so something unconstitutional, then there are check and balances in place to do something about it.

I also find it funny that I hear 2/3 of the Americans do want this bill. Anyway, lets say though even that 56% do not want this bill, then the people have to vote in their Senators or Representatives that can do what these people want.

Edit for a link to the 2/3 comment:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/30/new-poll-only-one-third-of-americans-support-repealing-defunding-or-delaying-obamacare/

[Chiefster]

Couldn't be explain any better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q-OyhPDobY

Except he explained like it isn't. see my replies above.

[mejohnm]

The House Republicans have offered to fund Obamacare as written and passed without the exemptions and the President along with the Senate Democrats rejected it.

What exemptions... like the one for when the poor cannot afford insurance. is it that one?

[Chiefster]

What exemptions... like the one for when the poor cannot afford insurance. is it that one?

No, the one that exempts Congress and their staff.

[mejohnm]

Top Google searches links that Congress is not exempt.

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/10/that-thing-about-congress-being-exempted-from-obamacare-huge-whopper-lie/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/27/is-congress-exempt-from-obamacare/2883635/

http://www.rgj.com/article/20131001/NEWS1801/131001004/Fact-Checker-Is-Congress-exempted-from-Obamacare-

https://www.google.com/#q=congress+exempt+from+obamacare

And even if Congress is exempt from this law, why make the Americans suffer for this. Each party can change it once they get the votes.

[Chiefster]

Top Google searches links that Congress is not exempt.

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/10/that-thing-about-congress-being-exempted-from-obamacare-huge-whopper-lie/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/27/is-congress-exempt-from-obamacare/2883635/

http://www.rgj.com/article/20131001/NEWS1801/131001004/Fact-Checker-Is-Congress-exempted-from-Obamacare-

https://www.google.com/#q=congress+exempt+from+obamacare

And even if Congress is exempt from this law, why make the Americans suffer for this. Each party can change it once they get the votes.

We can do this all day, but it's late and I have to go to bed soon.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/2/congress-can-keep-government-subsidized-health-pla/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/30/budget-showdown-test-wills-as-shutdown-deadline-comes-into-view/

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/325201-no-congressional-obamacare-exemptions

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/10/01/senate_votes_to_keep_obamacare_subsidy

http://spectator.org/archives/2013/10/03/obamacare-for-congress

Despite how it's spun, the fact of the matter is that Congress and their staff get a 72% tax payer Governmental subsidy that John Q. Public does not get. And, I agree; why make the American public suffer? It's something Democrats, obviously, have no problem with.

[mejohnm]

We can do this all day, but it's late and I have to go to bed soon.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/2/congress-can-keep-government-subsidized-health-pla/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/30/budget-showdown-test-wills-as-shutdown-deadline-comes-into-view/

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/325201-no-congressional-obamacare-exemptions

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/10/01/senate_votes_to_keep_obamacare_subsidy

http://spectator.org/archives/2013/10/03/obamacare-for-congress

Despite how it's spun, the fact of the matter is that Congress and their staff get a 72% tax payer Governmental subsidy that John Q. Public does not get. And, I agree; why make the American public suffer? Something Democrats, obviously, have no problem with.

Quote from Link 1:
Under the old system, the federal government contributed to about 75 percent of premiums; members and staffers are covered through the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program, but it was unclear if the program could subsidize premiums of plans on the exchanges.

So Congress will get this subsidy no matter what the outcome is here. They are getting it right now with the old system!!!

Quote from Link 2:
The latest House bill, which the chamber backed on a 228-201 vote, would have delayed the law's individual mandate while prohibiting lawmakers, their staff and top administration officials from getting government subsidies for their health care.

I also do not want them to have this subsidy and to find out today that Congress has already been getting this subsidy, and for a long time now, makes me upset. Even though, no reason to stop the government. The voting was pretty close and if one side wants to have a clear win, they gotta get the people to vote for them. Only then is it proper rather than shutting down the government.

Quote from link 3:
No congressional Obamacare exemptions
By Rep. Bill Cassidy (R-La.), M.D. - 09/30/13 09:00 AM ET

No need to go further here as well the 4th link from Rush Limbaugh. Any news from ANY senator or republican, sad to say, will be loosely said. Rush, he is a joke and his shows are just that, a show.

The 5th link was also informative about the subsidy, but as we already learned, Congress is getting this with or without Obamacare.

So what do we need to do? We vote in the party which we think can fix this problem. Still think the 2 party system is what is killing us.

[Chiefster]

Quote from Link 1:
Under the old system, the federal government contributed to about 75 percent of premiums; members and staffers are covered through the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program, but it was unclear if the program could subsidize premiums of plans on the exchanges.

So Congress will get this subsidy no matter what the outcome is here. They are getting it right now with the old system!!!

Quote from Link 2:
The latest House bill, which the chamber backed on a 228-201 vote, would have delayed the law's individual mandate while prohibiting lawmakers, their staff and top administration officials from getting government subsidies for their health care.

I also do not want them to have this subsidy and to find out today that Congress has already been getting this subsidy, and for a long time now, makes me upset. Even though, no reason to stop the government. The voting was pretty close and if one side wants to have a clear win, they gotta get the people to vote for them. Only then is it proper rather than shutting down the government.

Quote from link 3:
No congressional Obamacare exemptions
By Rep. Bill Cassidy (R-La.), M.D. - 09/30/13 09:00 AM ET

No need to go further here as well the 4th link from Rush Limbaugh. Any news from ANY senator or republican, sad to say, will be loosely said. Rush, he is a joke and his shows are just that, a show.

The 5th link was also informative about the subsidy, but as we already learned, Congress is getting this with or without Obamacare.

So what do we need to do? We vote in the party which we think can fix this problem. Still think the 2 party system is what is killing us.

The fact that they were getting it before does not in any way make it any fairer that they will continue to when it excludes John Q. Public under Obamacare.

Much the same can be said of the links you provided, it's a matter of opinion I guess.

I agree with you, the two party system is killing the nation. ...Finally something we agree on! :smile

[mejohnm]

Also on the Chiefs!

But chatting about this is not so bad. We really have been cool. That I like.

[Chiefster]

Also on the Chiefs!

But chatting about this is not so bad. We really have been cool. That I like.

You my friend are correct! :D

[TopekaRoy]

Quote from Link 1:
Under the old system, the federal government contributed to about 75 percent of premiums; members and staffers are covered through the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program, but it was unclear if the program could subsidize premiums of plans on the exchanges.

So Congress will get this subsidy no matter what the outcome is here. They are getting it right now with the old system!!!
Here is what you are missing. Under the old system, Senators, Congressmen and their staffers got their insurance through their employer, the Federal Government, just like most Americans get insurance through their employer. Employers typically pay 75 to 80% of the premiums. Under the ACA, congress and their staff will get their insurance through the exchanges. The Government subsidizes those premiums up to 4 times the poverty level. Obama put in place a special exemption that allows House and Senate Members to get a 72% subsidy for their insurance no matter how much money they make! Nobody else gets this subsidy to purchase insurance through the exchange if they don't qualify for financial assistance. That is an unfair special exemption.


Rush, he is a joke and his shows are just that, a show.
This is coming from a guy who gets his news from a liberal stand-up comedian on a late night talk show on a comedy network! Do you listen to Rush? If so how often? I don't agree with everything he says, but a lot of it makes good sense. I like Jonathon Stewart. I think he is very funny. (Actually, I think Stephen Colbert is even better.) But Stewart is not a good source for hard hitting news or balanced political commentary. He is a comedian, not a news analyst. His opinions are every bit as biased as Limbaugh's The difference is that Stewart uses cartoons and jokes about the NFL to back up his point of view, while Rush is on the air 3 hours per day backing up his opinions with solid logical arguments, facts and figures. You say Rush is a joke. Jonathon Stewart is a joke teller. Give me 3 examples of where Rush is wrong. Can you even come up with one?


So what do we need to do? We vote in the party which we think can fix this problem. Still think the 2 party system is what is killing us.

If we had 4 or 5 parties (Libertarian, Green party, Socialist, etc) nobody would ever get enough votes to pass anything unless they formed coalitions and joined forces. Then you would be back to a de facto two party system. If we had just one party that would be even worse. One party rule gave us the Affordable Care Act and led to the holocaust.

2 party rule is working as intended. It prevents highly partisan legislation from getting passed and only bills which have bi-partisan support become laws.

[Chiefster]

You make a good point about the two party vs multi-party system, but I do wonder how well it would work to have a viable third independent party that could tip the balance of power in congress.

[mejohnm]

I never said I got my news from him. His show is also just that, a show. I posted that for a good joke.

[TopekaRoy]

Edit for a link to the 2/3 comment:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/30/new-poll-only-one-third-of-americans-support-repealing-defunding-or-delaying-obamacare/

Poll results can be be highly skewed depending how the questions are worded. I'm also highly skeptical of polls that are conducted by highly biased organizations (MoveOn.org, MSNBC, Fox News). That poll was conducted by "the Morning Consult, a healthcare media company." They would have a high personal interest in implementing a law that requires everyone in the country to buy healthcare insurance.

But the biggest red flag for me is this: "Most polls show that voters disapprove of the 2010 health care law by significant margins. The Morning Consult’s poll did not" That tells me that the poll is biased and not asking neutral questions that would lead to an accurate poll result.

"Here are the numbers. 26 percent of the respondents identified as Republicans, compared to 42 percent Democrats and 31 percent independents."
The poll highly under represents Republicans, slightly under represents Democrats and highly over represents independents (who tend to predominantly vote Democrat). An accurate poll should should have numbers that mirror the American population.

And did you read the "update" at the bottom of the page in the same article?


There is support across the political spectrum for delaying the individual mandate one year and using the government funding bill to implement the delay. Additionally, the survey found that by a 5-point margin, respondents support using every opportunity to defund or delay the ACA rather than simply passing a “clean” bill to fund the government.Fully 56 percent of respondents support the individual mandate delay in the context of a continuing resolution debate, including 55 percent of independents, and 52 percent overall in “swing districts.” The survey also found that strong majorities across the spectrum oppose the Affordable Care Act, including 60 percent of independents, and a majority in “swing districts.”
...

In response to these new polling numbers, American Action Forum President Doug Holtz-Eakin said, “On policy, the verdict is in. Among voters across the spectrum, Obamacare is unpopular and the funding bill is an appropriate place to fight for government reforms. They will support efforts to keep the government open and make changes to Obamacare.” (emphases added)

Kind of kills your whole argument there, huh?

[TopekaRoy]

You make a good point about the two party vs multi-party system, but I do wonder how well it would work to have a viable third independent party that could tip the balance of power in congress.

A third party would definitely tip the balance of power ... in favor of the Democrats. A Tea Party or strong Libertarian Party would just split the votes of conservative and moderate Republicans and the Dems would win everything. In some cases Libertarian candidates are already siphoning of enough votes to swing elections in favor of Democrats.

Ronald Reagan said it best in 1975:

"Our people look for a cause to believe in. Is it a third party we need, or is it a new and revitalized second party, raising a banner of no pale pastels, but bold colors which make it unmistakably clear where we stand on all of the issues troubling the people? ...

And if there are those who cannot subscribe to these principles, then let them go their way. (source (http://reagan2020.us/speeches/Let_Them_Go_Their_Way.asp))"

[Chiefster]

A third party would definitely tip the balance of power ... in favor of the Democrats. A Tea Party or strong Libertarian Party would just split the votes of conservative and moderate Republicans and the Dems would win everything. In some cases Libertarian candidates are already siphoning of enough votes to swing elections in favor of Democrats.

Ronald Reagan said it best in 1975:

"Our people look for a cause to believe in. Is it a third party we need, or is it a new and revitalized second party, raising a banner of no pale pastels, but bold colors which make it unmistakably clear where we stand on all of the issues troubling the people? ...

And if there are those who cannot subscribe to these principles, then let them go their way. (source (http://reagan2020.us/speeches/Let_Them_Go_Their_Way.asp))"

I guess therein lies the crux of the Republican party, that there are so many factions thereof while the Democrats are widely united. I really miss Ronald Reagan.

[mejohnm]

Poll results can be be highly skewed depending how the questions are worded. I'm also highly skeptical of polls that are conducted by highly biased organizations (MoveOn.org, MSNBC, Fox News). That poll was conducted by "the Morning Consult, a healthcare media company." They would have a high personal interest in implementing a law that requires everyone in the country to buy healthcare insurance.

But the biggest red flag for me is this: "Most polls show that voters disapprove of the 2010 health care law by significant margins. The Morning Consult’s poll did not" That tells me that the poll is biased and not asking neutral questions that would lead to an accurate poll result.

"Here are the numbers. 26 percent of the respondents identified as Republicans, compared to 42 percent Democrats and 31 percent independents."
The poll highly under represents Republicans, slightly under represents Democrats and highly over represents independents (who tend to predominantly vote Democrat). An accurate poll should should have numbers that mirror the American population.

And did you read the "update" at the bottom of the page in the same article?



Kind of kills your whole argument there, huh?[/FONT][/COLOR]

Not really, you just said it yourself "Poll results can be be highly skewed depending how the questions are worded..." and where the poll is conducted. You have to admit a poll of 1500 people is not really strong enough. I do not know the total polled in that one but I doubt it was much.

As I said, Congress should let it go. Just imagine how well the Republicans will do in the next election if this ACA really goes down hill!

[mejohnm]

Also about Rush: At least Jon is a comedian. You want 3 things which Rush was wrong, well there are books about that. Here is a link for one of them:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Things-Arent-Outrageously/dp/156584260X

Here are just links to prove his lies and of his hatred:
http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/the-way-things-arent/
http://rushtruth.net/

And here is his rating from PolitiFact:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/rush-limbaugh/

Like I said before I was Republican, more independent now though leaning left lately. However even when I was very Republican I couldn't stand Rush. My parents liked him but hearing how he made people so small on his radio is disgusting. Of course this is my opinion and I am not here to even try to change anyone's opinion on this person. You just wanted 3 points so I gave you 4.

Now if I can learn more about our players and the team, I could post more in the other forums. Just I am too involved with our politics...

[matthewschiefs]

The problem as I see it is that Obama is acting less like the leader of a free people elected from the masses and more like a dictator.

THIS

I watched today on the tv thingy and saw how he said they wouldn't even talk unless the republicans to call for a vote to reopen the goverment which would benefit the democrats. So pretty much meet our terms or we won't even talk. That's NOT negotiating that's making demands. It's sad but Obama is turning out to be just as bad of not worse then Bush. I don't fallow politics much but hereing that from the president just kind of ticked me off. So many are out of work because of this shutdown and he won't even talk about getting them back to work unless he gets his way.

[mejohnm]

They are both making demands. Both sides want something which the other side will not give. Like it was said, two party system is gonna kill us.

[TopekaRoy]

Not really, you just said it yourself "Poll results can be be highly skewed depending how the questions are worded..." and where the poll is conducted.

Yes really. It totally shatters your argument. You said " I hear 2/3 of the Americans do want this bill."and then you link to a poll that doesn't say that at all. The poll says that only 33% want it repealed, defunded or delayed. That doesn't mean that the other 2/3 want the bill. In fact, it goes on to say that another "29 percent believe that 'Congress should make changes to improve the law.'" And then on the other side you have 12% who feel the law doesn't go far enough. "12 percent believe that 'Congress should expand the law.'" Only about 1 person in 4 (26%) "believe that “Congress should let the law take effect.”"

So your premise that the article supports what you think the poll says (that 2/3 of Americans want this bill) is wrong to begin with. I go on to explain why I feel the poll is biased and show you (in the same article you cited) another poll that says the opposite of what you think the first poll said. Furthermore the 2nd poll not only says that a majority of Americans want the law stopped, but they want congress to shut down the Governmet if necessary to stop it. "... the survey found that by a 5-point margin, respondents support using every opportunity to defund or delay the ACA rather than simply passing a “clean” bill to fund the government.


You have to admit a poll of 1500 people is not really strong enough.

No I don't. In fact 1500 (or the 1976 respondants that were used in the first poll) is actually quite a lot for an opinion survey. According to Wikipedia,

In practice, pollsters need to balance the cost of a large sample against the reduction in sampling error and a sample size of around 500–1,000 is a typical compromise for political polls.


I do not know the total polled in that one but I doubt it was much.

You are assuming facts not in evidence, a common tactic that liberals use when they are losing a debate. How do you know that the 2nd poll didn't use 2000 or 3000 responses? It was very easy for me to find out how many people were polled. In the article you cited it says "The American Action Forum has published an Obamacare poll (http://americanactionforum.org/survey/aaf-battleground-survey-on-the-continuing-resolution-obamacare) surveying voters in 18 competitive congressional districts." I just clicked on the link and found that 1200 likely voters were polled. That's plenty for an opinion poll.


As I said, Congress should let it go. Just imagine how well the Republicans will do in the next election if this ACA really goes down hill!

Then they would be breaking their campaign promises to try to stop the law and screwing the very people who voted for them and sent them to Washington, D.C. in the first place. That's what Obama does. Obama's Long List of Broken Promises (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2013/08/23/obamas-long-list-of-broken-promises/)

[TopekaRoy]

THIS

I watched today on the tv thingy and saw how he said they wouldn't even talk unless the republicans to call for a vote to reopen the goverment which would benefit the democrats. So pretty much meet our terms or we won't even talk. That's NOT negotiating that's making demands. It's sad but Obama is turning out to be just as bad of not worse then Bush. I don't fallow politics much but hereing that from the president just kind of ticked me off. So many are out of work because of this shutdown and he won't even talk about getting them back to work unless he gets his way.

I agree with the rest of what you said but I wouldn't worry about the Federal employees who are furloughed because of the Government shutdown. When it's over they will get all of their back pay, so this is just extra paid vacation time for them. If they use up their savings they may have to fill up a credit card or two, but this is the 18th shutdown in American History, and Congress always votes to pay Federal workers for the time they have lost. If they are going to pay themselves (and you know they will) it would look really bad for them if they didn't pay all the other Federal employees!

[TopekaRoy]

Also about Rush: At least Jon is a comedian.
Actually so is Rush. He is an "entertainer" who often "uses absurdity to illustrate the absurd." (His words.) people who don't listen to him on a regualr basis often don't get his satire or parody.


You want 3 things which Rush was wrong, well there are books about that. Here is a link for one of them:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Things-Arent-Outrageously/dp/156584260X

Here are just links to prove his lies and of his hatred:
http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/the-way-things-arent/
http://rushtruth.net/

And here is his rating from PolitiFact:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/rush-limbaugh/

Like I said before I was Republican, more independent now though leaning left lately. However even when I was very Republican I couldn't stand Rush. My parents liked him but hearing how he made people so small on his radio is disgusting. Of course this is my opinion and I am not here to even try to change anyone's opinion on this person. You just wanted 3 points so I gave you 4. ...

Actually, no, you didn't give me any. You shared a link where I could buy a book. (I'll see if I can find it in my local library. Should be good for some laughs.) The 2nd link is to a page that quotes passages from the book in the first link so, really that doesn't count. The book was published nearly 20 years ago in 1995. So there is nothing there from the last 19 years!

The 3rd link is to a site that is set up specifically to attack Rush (no bias there!) I only looked at the first "lie" and the point he was making is that gays can marry as long as they marry someone of the opposite sex. That's true. Actually the country HAS never stopped anyone from getting married because all marriage laws are handled by the individual States.

The 4th link uses short quotes and evaluates them for "truthfulness." Without seeing the context in which they were made, it's impossible to tell if he was using Hyperbole (biggest tax increase in the history of the World?), joking (can't even go fishing?) or being sarcastic. I noticed the site only cherry picks statements they disagree with. It doesn't list any of the thousands of things he has said that are undoubtedly true. The best he can do is "mostly true."

You called him a "joke" (previously) because you don't like his personality. You say he "made people so small on his radio." That's fine if you don't like him. he is not everyones cup of tea. Everyone makes mistakes occasionally, but most of what he says is true.

[mejohnm]

Bottom line here is that this is a law. It was passed by the acting Congress at that time. It was failed to be over turned by the current Congress. The Republicans will not be breaking their campaign promises, they did all they could. What they are doing now is just hurting the USA. To be demanding that a law does not go into effect is wrong. This will only hurt the USA more.

If members of Congress would do this for all laws that were passed, I could only imagine how much longer America will be America as it is today. Laws can be overturned, by doing it the way the Founders wanted to be done, by voting, not this way. And this goes for any party.

And about Rush, it is my opinion and that is his a proven lair, happy you have yours that he says the truth. Guess he was right in this one too which did cost him:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/21/rush-limbaugh-sandra-fluke-advertisers_n_2923643.html

[mejohnm]

I also looked into your link,http://americanactionforum.org, and it is also so bias, right side of the spectrum here. So yea, another poll that is flawed. Guess the only poll we can really rely on is the actual votes the bills have gotten, which is that the ACA did passed on and the other, even though some were better than the ACA, did not. All I can say is that the Republicans have to get more members into Congress and/or as President. Then the ACA can be changed or voided out completely. Being around with many independents as myself, this may be a lot harder than with this shutdown.

[kcvet]

with this shut down Obama has lost almost a million workers their jobs. and he could care less. IMO he's sunk so low an ant can piss on him. his goal, and that idiot Reid is to make us suffer

BUCHANAN: The sadistic strategy of Obama and Reid

In the showdown over the shutdown of the U.S. government, the Obamaites tipped their hand yesterday as what their strategy is. Taking a page out of Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals,” the plan is to maximize the people’s pain — to maximize the political damage to the enemy, the Republican Party. link: - See more at: http://rare.us/story/buchanan-the-sadistic-strategy-of-obama-and-reid/#sthash.kfbpDUzH.dpuf

Reid: 'Why Would We Want to' Help One Child With Cancer ??

Reid is in for a world of trouble from his opponents for comments he made today. He ruled out passing a small funding bill that would help "one child with cancer." His words are certain to be blasted by conservatives as a sign of utter callousness, although Reid would probably say he is taking a stand for the greater good.

Here's how it went down.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0lFyFJeZSY&feature=player_embedded

their now so low as to stop cancer treatment for our children. my hatred of this dictator and his socialist regime has now reached a new high. think of me as you will. as a former Veteran I am in favor of a civil war and over throw of this gang of terrorists and thieves. Democrats are far more dangerous to us than Islamic terrorist. they are home grown and demand you and live under socialism, which I and millions of American fought against and died.

[Chiefster]

...And the thing is that the House has every right to pass the budget one item at a time just like they're doing which is the historically the proper why to do it rather than everything all at once in one large omnibus.

[mejohnm]

Guess this shutdown will become the longest in history.

[mejohnm]

Oh maybe not... I just read how Republican Susan Collins has a good idea. She calls for a repeal of the medical device tax imposed by Obamacare, which a lot dislike on both sides of the spectrum.

Anyway, time to leave the politics for the rest of the day and to enjoy todays game. good luck Chiefs!

[Chiefster]

Guess this shutdown will become the longest in history.


Oh maybe not... I just read how Republican Susan Collins has a good idea. She calls for a repeal of the medical device tax imposed by Obamacare, which a lot dislike on both sides of the spectrum.

Anyway, time to leave the politics for the rest of the day and to enjoy todays game. good luck Chiefs!

Well most anything is possible, but the Democrats have indicated that they will not negotiate any form of compromise with the Republicans. The Republicans have bent over backwards and moved three or four separate times in their position regarding Obamacare in order to compromise and garnish the votes necessary to reopen the Government. The repeated mantra from Obama and the Democrats is "No!" ...And, it's the Republicans who are being dogmatic???

[mejohnm]

Well , we cannot say all of both parties. This tax is something which many Dems are against.

[Chiefster]

Well , we cannot say all of both parties. This tax is something which many Dems are against.

Touche and I will concede that point, but the Democrats are following the Presidents lead on this which is getting us no where.

[mejohnm]

And I will concede to that point too. Sad two people can come out with agreements and they cannot. It is their jobs, not ours.

[Chiefster]

And I will concede to that point too. Sad two people can come out with agreements and they cannot. It is their jobs, not ours.

Absolutely agreed my friend!

[TopekaRoy]

President Obama called House Speaker John Boehner today to tell him that he won't talk to him.

http://mistakablypremier.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/whaaat-i-dont-even-thumb.jpg

[Chiefster]

President Obama called House Speaker John Boehner today to tell him that he won't talk to him.

http://mistakablypremier.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/whaaat-i-dont-even-thumb.jpg

:lol:

[TopekaRoy]

The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our government’s reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.---Senator Barack Obama in 2006

That is what Obama said before voting against raising the debt limit to $8.965 trillion. On October 17, the United States will max out it's debt limit of $16.7 trillion. Now Obama says it would be irresponsible not to raise the limit.

What is the point of even having a debt ceiling if we are going to raise it every time we get close to it?


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gDzVKOkULTo/TlCGq_pS_BI/AAAAAAAAJ-k/HzlkMUFdT3Q/s1600/Obama_hypocrite.jpeg

[mejohnm]

Very true. Debt ceiling needs to be set and stayed in place. Budget has to be set where it has more positive balance to start paying off the debt no matter who is the politician. Would post an image but cannot upload.

[Chiefster]

We have sold the future of our descendants down the river.

[Chiefster]

Well as Republicans cave under the pressure of falling poll numbers thier tendency to go into self political preservation mode kicked in, having secured only to provisions fought for and that being: income verrification for Obamacare subsidies and the sequester cuts remain in place. So in essense Obama gets 100% of everything he wanted so that there will be nothing left to negotiate.

[tornadospotter]

Very true. Debt ceiling needs to be set and stayed in place. Budget has to be set where it has more positive balance to start paying off the debt no matter who is the politician. Would post an image but cannot upload.

What budget? When the last time there was a budget.

[mejohnm]

What budget? When the last time there was a budget.

Seems last night would be the answer, even if the budget is only for a couple of months.

[Chiefster]

Seems last night would be the answer, even if the budget is only for a couple of months.

...Kicked the can down the road. I believe that the attempt to defund Obamacare was an overreach given the political demographics on Capital Hill, but Ted Cruz and the other Tea Party Republicans were doing what their constituents sent them their to do. It was the divisive tone and the attacks against those Tea Party Republicans from within the Rebublican Party itself from RINOs like McCain that killed any effort to delay or roll back the unfair exemptions and gave the President a clear path to get 100% of everything he wants regardless of their harmful effects.

[mejohnm]

Like I said before, if the party wants a bill to become law, changed or completely remove, they have to get enough in Congress that will support them. Now, worldwide, the tea party is seen as extremist. I miss the good old GOP, Reagan style, not this.

[Chiefster]

Like I said before, if the party wants a bill to become law, changed or completely remove, they have to get enough in Congress that will support them. Now, worldwide, the tea party is seen as extremist. I miss the good old GOP, Reagan style, not this.

Frankly I could care less how the rest of the world sees the Tea Party. It is not "extremist" to actually listen to your constituency and stand on principle (for a change), to insist that there by equal treatment under the law and make big business and congress subject to the same set of circumstances everyone else is or give everyone else the same exemptions that Obama gave congress.

[mejohnm]

I am happy they listen to their constituency, it is their job. But to do what they did was not how the Founding Fathers wanted our government to govern. These delays that Obama gave to the businesses, for one year, do we know why?

[mejohnm]

Also with many Americans "frankly" not caring how the world sees them, I would be surprise if the Euro isn't the world currency here soon and that many countries remove themselves from the US market dependency.

[Chiefster]

I am happy they listen to their constituency, it is their job. But to do what they did was not how the Founding Fathers wanted our government to govern.

Tell that to Obama and the Democrats, they're the ones that refused to come to the bargaining table. And what exactly did "they" do? Shut down the government? I'm sick of that narrative as well, as if Obama and the Democrats had no part in that.


These delays that Obama gave to the businesses, for one year, do we know why?

Sure, because Obamacare hurts his unionized big business buddies.

[Chiefster]

Also with many Americans "frankly" not caring how the world sees them, I would be surprise if the Euro isn't the world currency here soon and that many countries remove themselves from the US market dependency.

I can't help that the world gets sucked into the mainstream, left wing, liberal media. I'm tired of the elitist, establishment, RINO way of go along to get along, business as usual, sell our children's future down the river way of governing that the Republican Party has become. I'm a Conservative and will no longer identify myself with the Republican Party until it rids itself of the RINOs. While we're on the subject of how our Founding Fathers governed, I'm pretty sure they were viewed by the European community as extremist.

[TopekaRoy]

Well as Republicans cave under the pressure of falling poll numbers thier tendency to go into self political preservation mode kicked in, having secured only to provisions fought for and that being: income verrification for Obamacare subsidies and the sequester cuts remain in place. So in essense Obama gets 100% of everything he wanted so that there will be nothing left to negotiate.

Yep. Income verification is not really a concession. It was in the original ACA before Obama unconstitutionally delayed it a year. That was done because businesses were supposed to report to the IRS who does and does not have insurance and what is covered, but there is no reporting system in place, yet, and businesses have been given a one year delay on their mandate to cover employees (also unconstitutionally), but individuals are required to be covered anyway. So I don't know how they are going to verify eligibility. Just look at your gross income reported on your 1040 form, I guess. So instead of getting a delay for any part of Obamacare, they just got democrats to agree to start that provision sooner than it would have if Obama had his way.

The sequester cuts have to remain in effect by law, because we still don't have a budget. So really, we got NOTHiNG out of the partial shutdown, and at the end of the year we will be right back where we were a few days ago. Only by then millions of people will have signed up for the exchanges (if they ever get the website fixed) and it will be that much harder to make any changes to the ACA.

[Chiefster]

Yep. Income verification is not really a concession. It was in the original ACA before Obama unconstitutionally delayed it a year. That was done because businesses were supposed to report to the IRS who does and does not have insurance and what is covered, but there is no reporting system in place, yet, and businesses have been given a one year delay on their mandate to cover employees (also unconstitutionally), but individuals are required to be covered anyway. So I don't know how they are going to verify eligibility. Just look at your gross income reported on your 1040 form, I guess. So instead of getting a delay for any part of Obamacare, they just got democrats to agree to start that provision sooner than it would have if Obama had his way.

The sequester cuts have to remain in effect by law, because we still don't have a budget. So really, we got NOTHiNG out of the partial shutdown, and at the end of the year we will be right back where we were a few days ago. Only by then millions of people will have signed up for the exchanges (if they ever get the website fixed) and it will be that much harder to make any changes to the ACA.

Yup, that is why Ted Cruz and Mike Lee fought to try and de-fund/delay Obamacre because once an entitlement program goes into full effect it is virtually impossible to repeal it.

[TopekaRoy]

Seems last night would be the answer, even if the budget is only for a couple of months.

Except they didn't pass a budget. They just extended current funding levels for another 3 months and raised the debt ceiling high enough to cover all our bills for a few months while the national debt continues to skyrocket. We have had funding bills for things like Agriculture and transportation, but we haven't had a full omnibus budget since Obama took office. He is required to submit a budget every year but has only submitted one budget since he took office and that was so extreme not even a single Democrat voted for it!

It is because of the fact that we can't pass a budget that sequestration started almost a year ago. Obama thought that if Congress was threatened with across the board cuts (including military) it would force Republicans and Democrats to compromise and finally pass a budget. It didn't.

Actually I hope they don't pass a budget, because it will force another round of spending cuts beginning in January 2014, due to sequestration. That seems to be the only way you can get Congress to cut spending on anything. Since sequestration kicked in the deficit has been cut in half and we have gotten along fine with the cuts. So while we are still spending more than we take in, it has at least slowed down the rate of growth in the National Debt a little bit.


Like I said before, if the party wants a bill to become law, changed or completely remove, they have to get enough in Congress that will support them. Now, worldwide, the tea party is seen as extremist. I miss the good old GOP, Reagan style, not this.

I don't think it is "extreme" to do what your district elected you to do. I don't think it is "extreme" to take a moral stand on principle. Millions of Americans are already being hurt by Obamacare, being forced to pay higher premiums for less coverage, losing plans that they liked and wanted to keep and no longer being able to see the same doctors they have had for many years, because they aren't included in the "bronze plan" or the "silver plan" and you can't afford the "gold plan."

Some say if Obamacare is so bad, just let it take effect and people will vote out the guys who support it. That may be true but the next mid-term elections are over a year away and by then much of the damage will have already been done. People will lose their jobs or have their hours cut. The higher costs they will have to pay for coverage will mean they have less money to buy stuff that people make and services that people provide. That will lead to even higher unemployment as businesses lay off employees due to the reduced demand for their products or services. It will send the economy back into a tailspin.

Real people will really be hurt by the ACA and it would be unethical for the politicians that campaigned to stop it to break their promises and not do what they can to try to stop it even if they don't have the numbers. Believe me, when the full pain of Obamacare is felt, voters will remember who supported it and who opposed it.


I am happy they listen to their constituency, it is their job. But to do what they did was not how the Founding Fathers wanted our government to govern.

Yeah, our Founding Fathers made the mistake of expecting politicians to be reasonable and make sensible compromises. All of this could have been avoided if the Democrats hadn't gotten drunk with power when they won the White House, House and Senate in 2008. If they had worked with Republicans and crafted a bill that both parties could agree on in the first place, Republicans wouldn't be trying to stop it now. But Dems knew that they could put whatever they wanted in the ACA and Republicans didn't have the numbers to stop them, so they refused to listen to any GOP input. Two years later Republicans won back the House, in large part because of Obamacare, and now the two parties have to work together if they are going to get anything done. But Democrats would rather shut down the Government, deny cancer treatment to children, and put barricades and armed guards around the World War II memorial, than give even an inch. They even refused to repeal the medical supply tax that had overwhelming bipartisan support, because they put political victories above doing what is right for the American people.

Our Founding Fathers drafted a Constitution that made it very difficult for laws to get passed because they wanted small government. It was big government that led to them declaring our independence in the first place. They wanted to make sure that only laws that had support on both sides of the aisle would be passed. It was exactly situations like this that the envisioned when they wrote it.

[mejohnm]

Tell that to Obama and the Democrats, they're the ones that refused to come to the bargaining table. And what exactly did "they" do? Shut down the government? I'm sick of that narrative as well, as if Obama and the Democrats had no part in that.

Their constituents didn't want the ACA to go away so they voted not to repeal it. They were not the ones to say we didn't get what we wanted so we will hurt our own country by shutting down the government, or even in partial, or threatening other things.

This is how it works. We cannot get everything and if we do want something, then we have to spread the word around so the people who represent our wishes can get voted in and make them as laws. If not, then we have to hold on for the ride.
And no, the Founding Fathers were not seen as extremist, well, to Britain at the time, probably yea.

Maybe the ACA cannot be repealed, but it certainly can be changed if it is voted for it. It can even be repealed if there are enough votes for it. Example would be the 18th Amendment.

[Chiefster]

Their constituents didn't want the ACA to go away so they voted not to repeal it. They were not the ones to say we didn't get what we wanted so we will hurt our own country by shutting down the government, or even in partial, or threatening other things.

This is how it works. We cannot get everything and if we do want something, then we have to spread the word around so the people who represent our wishes can get voted in and make them as laws. If not, then we have to hold on for the ride.
And no, the Founding Fathers were not seen as extremist, well, to Britain at the time, probably yea.

Maybe the ACA cannot be repealed, but it certainly can be changed if it is voted for it. It can even be repealed if there are enough votes for it. Example would be the 18th Amendment.

...And yet they are not the ones considered extremist because of it. They (the Democrats) were willing to take the country into shutdown and into default, if necessary, to protect their pet program. See Roys post above, he explains it in detail.

[mejohnm]

Now if the Dems had shutdown the government because the law was repealed, then yea, they would be extremist. But this is not what happen, is it?

[Chiefster]

No, they voted yes for the bill and for the budget... who didn't vote yes?

You've lost me here bud, but I'll try to respond. I'm not sure my response is appropriate to your reply.

When you say "they" do you mean the Democrats? If so Obama himself said he would not negotiate any part of Obamacare thus taking the country into the shutdown. It was the Democrats that crammed the ACA through congress without even reading it, ignoring any objections or input from concerned Republicans. I don't know of any Republicans, although there may have been, that voted for the ACA.

[mejohnm]

Now if the compromises fail the vote, then the Founding Fathers expected the others to respect the Union as a whole. The ACA made it through and the repeals didn't.

[mejohnm]

Here is the wiki of who voted for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Healthc are_debate.2C_2008.E2.80.9310

I see that the representative in Kansas voted no. Kansas though has been a pretty red state. Oh well, guess we will see what happens in Jan. 2014. It would be interesting if the union should split. Let the blue have their states and the red theirs, be interesting what would happen then.

[mejohnm]

You've lost me here bud, but I'll try to respond. I'm not sure my response is appropriate to your reply.

When you say "they" do you mean the Democrats? If so Obama himself said he would not negotiate any part of Obamacare thus taking the country into the shutdown. It was the Democrats that crammed the ACA through congress without even reading it, ignoring any objections or input from concerned Republicans. I don't know of any Republicans, although there may have been, that voted for the ACA.

My point though President Obama doesn't have to negotiate nor does the Dems in Congress since Congress already tried to repeal the ACA... how many times now... 44 or so? The votes were always to keep the ACA as it is and as a law. Replace them Dems that did vote yes with GOP that will vote no, then this will be a different story. This is how our Founding Fathers saw it.

[Chiefster]

Now if the compromises fail the vote, then the Founding Fathers expected the others to respect the Union as a whole. The ACA made it through and the repeals didn't.


My point though President Obama doesn't have to negotiate nor does the Dems in Congress since Congress already tried to repeal the ACA... how many times now... 44 or so? The votes were always to keep the ACA as it is and as a law. Replace them Dems that did vote yes with GOP that will vote no, then this will be a different story. This is how our Founding Fathers saw it.

That's all well and good, except absent from your argument is the fact that House Republicans sent bill after bill to the Senate in order to reopen the Government item by item, the way the Founding Fathers meant it to be, and the Senate Democrats rejected each and every one of them because they wanted it all in one big omnibus in order to control the shutdown to inflict maximum pain and damage while blaming House Conservatives for the shutdown. We can do this all day, the fact of the matter is that voiding the President and the Democrats of any culpability in this matter is a flawed argument. Also missing in the argument is the fact that the President has not lead or engaged himself at all in this process, he continues his stance of leading from behind.

[Chiefster]

My point though President Obama doesn't have to negotiate nor does the Dems in Congress since Congress already tried to repeal the ACA... how many times now... 44 or so? The votes were always to keep the ACA as it is and as a law. Replace them Dems that did vote yes with GOP that will vote no, then this will be a different story. This is how our Founding Fathers saw it.

Again, the Founding Fathers also put the House of Representatives in control of the purse strings in order to rein in the Executive branch from overreaching it's Constitutional authority which Obama has done when he unilaterally changed the ACA in it's implementation as it was written, voted on and signed by him.

[mejohnm]

Yea, that they did. For one, I cannot find anywhere in the Constitution where it says how that is suppose to go. Do you have a supporting link? I tried to find one but had no luck.

Also, if they do want to do that in that way, then they should make sure they send a bill for the spending for every item. Now we know the GOP was not gonna send an item for the ACA, hence the reason why this all happened. I understand the all in one though, it is to prevent these type of games. Or if they want item by item, then they need to send all items at the same time but might as well go with the all in one.

[Chiefster]

Yea, that they did. For one, I cannot find anywhere in the Constitution where it says how that is suppose to go. Do you have a supporting link? I tried to find one but had no luck.

Also, if they do want to do that in that way, then they should make sure they send a bill for the spending for every item. Now we know the GOP was not gonna send an item for the ACA, hence the reason why this all happened. I understand the all in one though, it is to prevent these type of games. Or if they want item by item, then they need to send all items at the same time but might as well go with the all in one.

Absolutely correct for reasons we've already discussed.

As for the rest here, I have read through the Constitution and Amendments a couple of times and I don't remember any mention of specific rules regarding how appropriations are to be approved and allocated by Congress except that they start in the House and is approved by the Senate. It is widely accepted that appropriations was originally set up on an item by item basis to avert any one branch of Government from having too much control over the legislative process. I'll do more research though.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html

[mejohnm]

Thanks, I will call a time out to read this :)

[mejohnm]

Link goes to the Constitution, but I will reread it again anyway.

Yea, we discussed the reason why the GOP would not give an item to the ACA. Yes, I heard from both sides (bad things and good things about the ACA) but I am the kind of person that waits for the actual results. Still though, the ACA is a law, it was not over turned in the 44 tries so that means the rest of the Americans wanted it since their representatives voted for it and not to repeal it.

Now I am for one that once it is turning out the be a bad law, I want that bad parts to be fixed and asp. I do see good things in this bill which I hope stay, like insurance companies cannot deny preexisting conditions and they have to offer the same price as anyone else (going by income). Other hand I do like smaller government, but with so much freedoms that we have, and so many taking advantage of them at times, it is these that cause such bills to come up. Besides, this is suppose to be for the better, not the worse. Like I said, if it is for the worse, then change it and quickly. Guess time will tell.

[tornadospotter]

What was the last Federal Budget passed, and when?

[kcvet]

what if..................

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1003233_420865554680538_839889406_n.jpg

[Chiefster]

Term limits needs to be the next Constitutional Amendment.

[mejohnm]

Term limits needs to be the next Constitutional Amendment.

Completely agree here.

[Chiefster]

I'm not big on country music but this is great!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRP8Do-IyRU

[kcvet]

I like country boys


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEdcEC7qBOU

[kcvet]

Term limits needs to be the next Constitutional Amendment.

for sure. also the voting age back to 21 or 24-25. stop children from voting

[Chiefster]

for sure. also the voting age back to 21 or 24-25. stop children from voting

I agree, but in so doing than push back the age that one has to register for the draft to the same age. In my mind if these kids are old enough to go die for their country than they are old enough to vote, or reserve the right to vote at that age for those in the military.

[mejohnm]

Good post Chiefster. 18 is consider to be legally adult age, mature or not, then that is the voting age. It should also be the drinking age.

[Chiefster]

Good post Chiefster. 18 is consider to be legally adult age, mature or not, then that is the voting age. It should also be the drinking age.

That has been the argument since the drinking age was pushed back to twenty-one, and it has merit. I think that the age to register for the draft should, also, mirror the current drinking age. Although one could argue that there's precious little difference between the mental maturity of an eighteen year old and one who is twenty-one.

[kcvet]

in my time 21 was voting and drinking age. should still be IMO. they still have to register for the draft at 18. so did I. only at 18 a place called vietnam called and i had to go. or else

[Chiefster]

in my time 21 was voting and drinking age. should still be IMO. they still have to register for the draft at 18. so did I. only at 18 a place called vietnam called and i had to go. or else

Absolutely agree and think it was morally wrong for you to be pressed into serving in the armed forces prior to age twenty-one.

[kcvet]

More Americans Than Ever Are Renouncing Their Citizenship


Expatriations are typically motivated by adesire to escape taxes, and the move is usually undertaken by Americans already living abroad. There was an uptick in expatriation at the beginning of President Obama's first term, which has been attributed both to anticipation of more burdensome taxation policies and to increased tax enforcement against expatriates. Indeed, the Journal notes that those who renounced last year may have done so to avoid a higher capital gains tax, and also points to the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, which makes it tougher for Americans to hide assets in offshore accounts.


link (http://www.dailyfinance.com/on/more-americans-renouncing-us-citizenship/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D406378#!slide=985185 )

I know a lot of them that have said screw this and left the country years ago. both young and old. more and more are taking a hike because they simply can't afford this un godly taxation system here. and a lot of them closed out their investments and took em along. we're being taxed literally out of our own country.

[mejohnm]

More Americans Than Ever Are Renouncing Their Citizenship



link (http://www.dailyfinance.com/on/more-americans-renouncing-us-citizenship/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D406378#!slide=985185 )

I know a lot of them that have said screw this and left the country years ago. both young and old. more and more are taking a hike because they simply can't afford this un godly taxation system here. and a lot of them closed out their investments and took em along. we're being taxed literally out of our own country.

Guess those people didn't go to Europe...

[kcvet]

Guess those people didn't go to Europe...

most went to to SE Asia. the cost of living overseas is fraction of what it is here. you can live like a king for little or next to nothing.

[kcvet]

Absolutely agree and think it was morally wrong for you to be pressed into serving in the armed forces prior to age twenty-one.

18 was the law. that went back to before WW2. after Pearl Harbor my dad, like millions of youngsters enlisted. but my dad was only 17. so his dad signed for him and away he went. it caused a major argument between my grand dad and his wife and my mom who threw a fit.

my dad during his war

http://i43.tinypic.com/317e2ya.jpg

>

me during mine. and yes the same fight started over me going to

http://i44.tinypic.com/wkqooz.jpg

[Chiefster]

18 was the law. that went back to before WW2. after Pearl Harbor my dad, like millions of youngsters enlisted. but my dad was only 17. so his dad signed for him and away he went. it caused a major argument between my grand dad and his wife and my mom who threw a fit.

my dad during his war

http://i43.tinypic.com/317e2ya.jpg

>

me during mine. and yes the same fight started over me going to

http://i44.tinypic.com/wkqooz.jpg

All I can say is THANK YOU and God bless you both for your service to our Country!

[Chiefster]

I wonder if there will be a couple of Republican candidates for the 2016 election??? :schlacht:

[tornadospotter]

Nope!

[Chiefster]

https://youtu.be/AoSpLENAcxQ

Compare and contrast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_GYGsIpP54

...Just because they're the only women in the race.

[Canada]

Theres still a thread started by HermHater??

[TopekaRoy]

Theres still a thread started by HermHater??

LOL. Be careful what you post on the internet. Once it's out there it NEVER goes away.

Ya hear that, Hillary?

[Chiefster]

Theres still a thread started by HermHater??

Where you been young man! :11:


LOL. Be careful what you post on the internet. Once it's out there it NEVER goes away.

Ya hear that, Hillary?

Haven't you heard she wiped the server clean with a rag. LOL!

[mejohnm]

Yea, I guess Hillary should have stick with Chapter 11 as Trump did.

[Chiefster]

Yea, I guess Hillary should have stick with Chapter 11 as Trump did.

Can you do that with a "charity"?

[mejohnm]

Wish I could. One a serious note, Trump here in Germany and from my work experience with other Europeans, is just not liked nor can we all understand the people's desire for such a person to be president. I know politicians no matter where they are from or from whatever party are always bad in some way or another, but Trump reminds us so much of how Hitler came to power.

[TopekaRoy]

...Trump reminds us so much of how Hitler came to power.

Wow! That's a very interesting perspective and one that, I believe is probably uniquely German. I don't know of ANY Americans--even those who can't stand Trump--that have compared him to Hitler.

But now that you have pointed it out, I can see how, from a German perspective, one might draw those parallels. Trump's perceived anti illegal alien and anti Muslim rhetoric could sound like Hitler's hatred toward the Jews, Poles and Catholics. He speaks boldly and forcefully, like Hitler did, and acts like he already has the job of President. Like Hitler during his rise to power, Trump is charismatic, well known and, to some, very persuasive.

There are some very big and key differences between Trump and Hitler, however. Trump is (or at least claims to be) a conservative who believes in capitalism, less government regulation and is very pro-business. This makes sense because he has made billions of dollars in the private sector. Before entering the army, Hitler was poor and grew up in a homeless shelter. He was an avowed socialist and as soon as he rose to power he had the government seize a large portion of private industry. He believed in a very strong - totalitarian - government.

Trump has no problem with immigrants who come to America legally and work toward American citizenship within the system. He wants to keep Illegal aliens from crossing our southern border and kick out the undocumented immigrants who are here illegally. He also has no problem with peaceful mainstream American Muslims, but wants to keep out violent radical religious extremist Islamic terrorists.

Hitler on the other hand hated German citizen Jews and Catholics just because they weren't Protestants. He was intent on World domination and invaded Poland because he believed that the Aryan race had a right to more "living space" for the Fatherland.

At any rate, it doesn't really matter because Trump will not win the Republican nomination for President. He is the front runner now but that is only because there are about 10 other candidates who are splitting 75% of the vote. As less viable candidates drop out of the race, people who supported them will shift their support to other candidates who are NOT Donald Trump.

About one out of four Republicans will support Trump no matter how many stupid things he says, but about two out of three Republicans will never support him. That means his "floor" is about 25% and his "ceiling" is around 33% and if you follow the polls you will see that his support has always been in that range.

Many Americans are fed up with ALL politicians. They overwhelmingly elected Republicans in the last two national elections who promised to reduce government spending, fix the economy, repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act (ObamaCare) and get tough on terrorism and feel that those politicians have let them down. Many see Trump as an outsider who has a track history of getting things done. They believe he would get tough on terrorism and illegal immigration, would know how to improve the economy and reduce the budget deficit because he has had such great success in the business sector. What those people fail to realize is that as head of Trump Enterprises his employees have to do what he says or he can fire them. He wouldn't have that luxury with Senators and Congressman.

As a businessman Trump can also walk away from a deal if his terms aren't met. The people he buys real estate from or contracts with to build skyscrapers and casinos won't continue to kill people if he walks away like ISIS, Iran, North Korea or China would.

Trump is very popular now in large part because he is a celebrity and many know him from his reality TV shows, The Apprentice and Shark Tank. He does well when he gives speeches but his lack of political experience and ignorance of very important issues get exposed in the Republican Presidential Debates. As we get closer to the election and people start paying more attention they will see that there is little or no substance behind his rhetoric and bombast.

[kcvet]

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12301622_10208052244727033_312320758107266252_n.jp g?oh=fd76cb35613117eb24097472f7f8536d&oe=56F7E260

Trump can't be bought and that's what burns both sides and the retarded MSM. he's got enough capital reserves to break all of them in half over his knee. they don't want to hear the truth. and telling the truth in DC is political suicide unless your self financing. you would think the dangerous democrats would want him to run to but they are crapping they're pants in fear. do both side know something their not telling us??? hmmm. count on it
now this alleged prez is bringing in up to 100,000 Islamic terrorists under the guise of "refugee" he's kiddin' him. the first installment of 10K is on the way here to be distributed to 182 cities/towns and they're gonna take off like jack rabbits. my state along with most have told Obozo where to shove em.

I swear by god and sunny Jesus if Trump is not on the ballot ill write in Vladimir Putin. I don't support the RNC anymore. its been neutered by the liberals and a sworn enemy as well. IMO

[mejohnm]

TopekaRoy, that there was well written, and thank you for taking the time to write that out. What also amazes me is though as kcvet pointed out is that Trump cannot be bought. This is not what amazes me, but the point that Trump is so rich that he can just buy people himself. This is where as you said TopekaRoy, differs from Hitler as Hilter was never really rich as a kid. Trump, he never will understand what a budget means when your allowance is so far more than you can spend.

kcvet, you bring up another sore point about the refugees. Do you all really think that every single one of them are ISIS under disguise? I see you and many other Americans complaining about this, to bring in 100,000. That is a joke right? Germany has over 1,000,000 of them now. I do understand that some may very well be a terrorist, but I just cannot see the justification not to help when many need help. It was very interesting to see Carson go to Jordan to see the real facts. Yea, a lot of the refugees do want to return to their home country once the fighting is gone. We have seen this in Germany. Many though, do want to stay in Germany and I would think they would also hope to stay in the USA. I can understand that too since Germany and the USA have freedom of religion laws. Of course the laws prohibit forcing ones religion to others. But from my experience with many different types of Muslims, or those who have Islam as their faith, are very peaceful and want just peace. They know there are certain phrases in their book, to kill non believers, etc but the Bible has verses just the same. Some of these Muslims are good friends. I just cannot see the justification is this label that you and some other America's give.

[kcvet]

TopekaRoy, that there was well written, and thank you for taking the time to write that out. What also amazes me is though as kcvet pointed out is that Trump cannot be bought. This is not what amazes me, but the point that Trump is so rich that he can just buy people himself. This is where as you said TopekaRoy, differs from Hitler as Hilter was never really rich as a kid. Trump, he never will understand what a budget means when your allowance is so far more than you can spend.

kcvet, you bring up another sore point about the refugees. Do you all really think that every single one of them are ISIS under disguise? I see you and many other Americans complaining about this, to bring in 100,000. That is a joke right? Germany has over 1,000,000 of them now. I do understand that some may very well be a terrorist, but I just cannot see the justification not to help when many need help. It was very interesting to see Carson go to Jordan to see the real facts. Yea, a lot of the refugees do want to return to their home country once the fighting is gone. We have seen this in Germany. Many though, do want to stay in Germany and I would think they would also hope to stay in the USA. I can understand that too since Germany and the USA have freedom of religion laws. Of course the laws prohibit forcing ones religion to others. But from my experience with many different types of Muslims, or those who have Islam as their faith, are very peaceful and want just peace. They know there are certain phrases in their book, to kill non believers, etc but the Bible has verses just the same. Some of these Muslims are good friends. I just cannot see the justification is this label that you and some other America's give.

good Muslims?? no such thing contradiction in terms. here's how they'll conquer the world


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kKkY5EpVpY

100,000?? no joke

BERLIN — The Obama administration will increase the number of worldwide refugees the United States accepts each year to 100,000 by 2017, a significant increase over the current annual cap of 70,000, Secretary of State John Kerry said Sunday.

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/europe/us-to-increase-admission-of-refugees-to-100000-in-2017-kerry-says.html)


Do you all really think that every single one of them are ISIS under disguise?

are you willing to bet your life and that of your families its just a few?? every day these killers are being arrested with fake passports to the US. i mean really how hard would it be for them to mix in with the crowd. it was the same in Nam. they all looked alike can't tell friend from foe. no I don't think all them will be killers but how can we tell?? ive heard of no way of checking their pedigree. no papers, nothing. open the gates and let em pour in. ever hear of national security?? well this one the biggest breeches of security ive ever seen.

Germany?? they are being over run by peaceful refugees same as France. more peaceful refugees open fire. France is a joke. if your gonna run a country you have provide security. its just the beginning more attacks are on the way.
and this idiot moron we refer to as a president is just gonna let em walk right in here.


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/syrian-refugees-post1-1024x853.jpg

is it just lil ole me??

http://cdn1.godfatherpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/US-Terroist-Camp-Map.jpg

finally a very disturbing video that needs to be seen by all


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoZwIDlIL5Q

[mejohnm]

Well, me being a Muslim as with a lot of my family. Yea I can say that. After getting to the original author of that video, it saddens me to see extremist fighting extremist. It saddens me to see that even you, as many others, assume that all Muslims want to conquer the world. I am sorry your views are destroyed by the acts of extremists.

Just as last Friday as another extremist went to kill people at the clinic Planned Parenthood, I do not think every Christian want to kill. Just as this attack in Ca, mostly also Muslim extremist, I know not all want to kill. When is it that people that are not extremist can get together and defeat these extremist no matter what these extremist cause are?

[TopekaRoy]

Just as last Friday as another extremist went to kill people at the clinic Planned Parenthood, I do not think every Christian want to kill.

What makes you think that the Planned Parenthood killer is a Christian? I did a Google search and could find no evidence of that. He has not claimed to be a Christain and I have not seen any reports that he was a member of a radical extremist Christian group. There are many non-Christians and even athiests who believe that abortion is murder. Please post a link to any article that definitively identifies him as a Christian.

[TopekaRoy]

MeJohnM, I didn't know you were a Muslim. Why do think it is that more prominent, well-known Muslims are not speaking out publicly against violent Islamic extremism? Do you think they are afraid that if they express opposition to groups like ISIS that they will become a target, or do you think that secretly many of them support a worldwide Caliphate and Sharia law?

[mejohnm]

Well, they have as in the latest attack: http://www.ibtimes.com/syed-farook-muslim-san-bernardino-shooting-sparks-religion-debate-2209149

[mejohnm]

As for the attack in Colorado, here is what we read: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?_r=0


Of course it says that Mr.Dear "claims to be a Christian and is extremely evangelistic." This sounds familiar when I hear Muslims claiming it their duty to use quotes from the Quran to kill innocent people. Maybe back in the day, but today's world has no place for these "commands." Just as in the Bible has verse to kill, we need to evolve away and live in peace. This, is what I hope you all can understand is the true goal to majority on Muslims. And yes, ISIS does dislike us for standing to our points but many also fear that others will also target us because of the bad seeds out there.

[mejohnm]

Also do not forget our Chief's also have a Muslim player, Husain Abdullah. Not the reason why I am here. Been a Chiefs fan way before Husain Abdullah joined the team. But I want to use him as a example of hopefully the good side to our religion. I do not know him but I pray he is.

[TopekaRoy]

Wow. So much to cover ... I'll try to organize my thoughts.



Well, they have as in the latest attack: http://www.ibtimes.com/syed-farook-m...debate-2209149

I know the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) quickly called a press conference to condemn the attacks and do some "damage control" and I applaud them for that. (I watched it live, in fact.) But to be fair, fostering better relations between Muslims and other Americans is the sole reason for their existence. It's what they do.

They are not the "prominent, well-known Muslims" to which I was referring. I want to hear from celebrities like Shaquille O'Neal, Dr. Oz, Paula Abdul, Kareem Abdul Jabaar, rappers like Ice Cube and Akon, and Louis Farakhan, for just a few examples. No Muslim that anybody has ever heard of is speaking out publicly, or if they are the message isn't reaching the masses. It's also one thing to condemn an individual act of terrorism. It is another thing entirely to condemn the ideology that drives groups like ISIS and al-Queda.

Next topic


As for the attack in Colorado, here is what we read: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us...ting.html?_r=0

Of course it says that Mr.Dear "claims to be a Christian and is extremely evangelistic."

Thank you for that link. I had not seen it before. While I tend to dismiss most of what I see in the NY Times because of their heavily slanted liberal bias, I believe that article is accurate.

While Mr. Dear claims to be a Christian, there is nothing Christian about his ideology especially where it concerns sin and grace. Unlike Dear, no Christian denomination believes that we can continue to sin because we are forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, we believe that because God loved us so much that he was willing to sacrifice His ony Son for OUR sins, if we willingly continue to sin it is like a slap in the face to God.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."--1 John 3:9 (NIV)

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"--Hebrews 10:26-29 (NIV)

The Bible says that we will know who the Christians are by their fruits (actions). While Dear claims to be a Christian, his actions show clearly that he is not.

Next topic.


This sounds familiar when I hear Muslims claiming it their duty to use quotes from the Quran to kill innocent people. Maybe back in the day, but today's world has no place for these "commands." Just as in the Bible has verse to kill, we need to evolve away and live in peace. This, is what I hope you all can understand is the true goal to majority on Muslims.

Yes, but there is a huge difference between the way radical extremist Muslims (not most Muslims) and Jews and Christians interpret such verses.

The Jews believe that those verses serve as a historical context. They were commands for only those Jews in that area at that time, when they were claiming a land for themselves; a land that has been taken from them time and time again over their 4000 year history. They don't believe that those particular verses are "commands" for modern day Jews.

Christians interpret those verses the same way, but we also accept the New Testament which replaces the Old Covenent between God and His people. The NT teaches that God is Love. It teaches that not only should we "do unto others as we would have others do unto us," but we should love our ENEMIES as well!

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."--Matthew 5:44 (NIV)

"But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you."--Luke 6:35 (NIV)

Is there any similar command in the Quran?

Also, unlike Christians and Muslims, Jews see no reason to evangelize or proselytize. While they welcome non-Hebrew converts to their faith, they believe that the descendants of Abraham are "God's chosen people" and if God chooses them they will be born into that "family."

Christianity is open to all, Jew and Gentile alike. We have been commanded to spread the Gospel to all nations, but we don't force anybody to convert. In fact, if the conversion is forced then the convert isn't really a Christian. We believe that one can only be led to God through Jesus Christ by persuasion of the Holy Spirit. We can "witness" and "share our testimonies," but only God can do the work of changing people's hearts.

The radical extremist sect of Islam believes that all people must convert to Islam or die and that it is their duty to "kill the infidels."

Next topic.


Just as last Friday as another extremist went to kill people at the clinic Planned Parenthood, I do not think every Christian want to kill.

There are absolutely NO similarities between the Planned Parenthood attack and Islamic terrorist attacks. The intents, goals and purposes are completely different.

Mr. Dear went after a specific target because he sincerely believes that Planned Parenthood is killing unborn babies and selling their body parts for profit. He was not trying to terrorize the general public. The guy making sandwiches at the Subway down the street does not fear that if he doesn't convert to Christianity, religious extremists will try to kill him.

The goal of Islamic terrorists is to kill as many non Muslims as possible or to kill people regardless of their faith so that we will fear them. They strike at random times and in random places to instill maximum fear. They try to blend in with the general public and will plot and prepare for years, waiting until the time is right for them to strike. They believe they are waging a holy Jihad in the name of Allah and many of them are willing to die in this pursuit.

To compare the Planned Parenthood killings to Islamic terrorism and say that there is no difference between Christian extremists and Muslim extremists is disengenous at best. They are nothing alike.

There is so much more we could talk about but I think that this is enough to digest for now. :smile

[mejohnm]

The two attacks do have different goals. What I mean is that these acts cause terror and fear. Those who commit to terrorism are extremist, which does not need a certain religion, or any religion, to be an extremist.

About loving people that are not in the same religion, it is in the Quran under 9 and 45 are just some areas which says to love those even when they are non followers. It also states in 2:190 not to do more than what God has told us to do. In the Quran it also speaks good of Israel, which makes many wonder why many are so against Israel: Quran 45:16, And We did certainly give the Children of Israel the Scripture and judgement and prophet hood, and We provided them with good things and preferred them over the worlds.

People want to take our faiths and use them improperly. This is a fact on both sides for mine religion and in Christianity. Also please remember, ISIS, or ISIL does not really care if you are Muslim or not, they will kill as long you are not part of their "group".

[Canada]

Where you been young man! :11:



Just layin low and tryin to stay outta trouble. How are you?

[mejohnm]

I am sorry for what has happened around us. I am sorry that a group can take our own and change them to be what we teach them not to be.

[kcvet]

in view of the killings in CA I expect security at Arrowhead to be tighter than ever

[Chiefster]

in view of the killings in CA I expect security at Arrowhead to be tighter than ever

I certainly hope so.

[mejohnm]

I hope security is higher everywhere. But seeing what happens in the USA since mass shootings started, you would think security would always be higher.

[kcvet]

closer to home

Multiple cell phone purchases at 3 Missouri Walmarts raise suspicions

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — In less than a week, law enforcement agencies in three different Missouri cities have investigated the purchase of large quantities of cell phones at Walmart stores. In two cases, the Federal Bureau of Investigation was contacted.

story (http://fox4kc.com/2015/12/09/multiple-cell-phone-purchases-at-3-missouri-walmarts-raise-suspicions/)

cellphones are of course used by terrorists to set off bombs. these phones were prepaid so they can't be traced or monitored. also a large number of gas grill bottles were stolen from local KC areas.

Further to the mobile phone scare, agents are now drawing a connection to the disappearance of dozens of tanks of highly flammable propane gas around locations in Missouri. This elevates the possible connection to a potential terrorist plot, as the local mood seems to indicate.

The tanks were stolen from several locations in Independence and Lee’s Summit, according to Fox 4.

The first theft was reported at the end of November by a BP gas station in Lee’s Summit. At least 18 propane tanks were stolen from the cages situated outside. Later that night, another gas station in the area reported the same story. Two weeks after that, 28 tanks were stolen from a gas station in Independence.

https://www.rt.com/usa/325571-phones-propane-terrorist-missouri/

Independence is just down the freeway from arrowhead

[Bike]

I'm gonna be politicly incorrect and will probably upset a lot of people, but here goes anyway:

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!:saythat:

[Chiefs4life24]

Merry Christmas is the proper way to say it, happy holidays is politically incorrect

[mejohnm]

I always thought "Happy Holidays" was to show respect for anyone having a celebration during this time of year. Of course even I would say "Merry Christmas" to those I know that are Christians on the night of the 24th and 25th. Those though also say "Happy Holidays" to me since most do not know when our holidays are. It is just about being respectful.

[TopekaRoy]

I have no problem with people saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays." Furthermore, I'm not offended by "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Kwanzaa," either. What I do have a problem with is people who refuse to say "Merry Christmas" because they don't want to offend, or be culturally insensitive to people of other faiths. In the Untied States at least, Christmas is not just a Christian holiday; it's a national holiday. Jews, Atheists and people of all faiths (except Jehovah's Witnesses who don't celebrate any holidays) celebrate Christmas in a "secular" way.

If I wish mejohnm a Merry Christmas, I'm not attacking or insulting his Muslim faith. I'm wishing him happiness on the day we celebrate the birth of Jesus. I know he doesn't believe that Jesus was the "Christ," the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament, but he does recognize Jesus as one of Allah's "messengers" (prophets). That is still something that Muslims can celebrate.

[mejohnm]

Merry Christmas to you all.

[Chiefster]

Merry Christmas to you all.

Same to you mejohnm, TopekaRoy, Chiefs4life and Bike!

[Canada]

Sorry im late but Merry Celebrations!! Saw that on a sign and thought it was hilarious.

[Chiefster]

Well it looks as if Billary will be the Dems choice and it has come down to the non-establishment Cruz and Trump with Rubio and Kasich dreaming of a brokered convention for the Republicans. If Trump goes on to be the nominee then Billary will win the White House. I've never not voted since I was old enough to vote, but if Trump wins the GOP then I think I may as well stay home in November. I think that if Rubio and Kasich don't get out soon then they are handing Trump the nomination.

[mejohnm]

I am not sure if Hillary has won yet. MI lost is not so good for her. Sanders still has a small chance. Now if Romney does come into this then things could get interesting.

[kcvet]

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12321589_10208724033281327_8781160967300884761_n.j pg?oh=76606c0b2ef7c34b72ef9795972386b6&oe=574BC64B

what a loser. the RNC is really getting this desperate

[Chiefs4life24]

Come on Donald Trump

[kcvet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9tcswoomvM&feature=youtu.be

[Chiefster]

I think I'll write in Marmaduke.

[Chiefster]

I am not sure if Hillary has won yet. MI lost is not so good for her. Sanders still has a small chance. Now if Romney does come into this then things could get interesting.

Yeah, she got upset tonight in Indiana as well, but I still think she will win the nomination. Cruz is out so Trump is the Repukeblicans nominee. I think I'll stay home and watch some old Chiefs games I have saved on DVD on November 8th.

[NickheadKCAU]

TOOLS!!!

Hitlery Cliton

or

T-rump



it's all done for dramatic effect.

the two party dictatorship is exactly why i left the usa.

[NickheadKCAU]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BizU-u7RPcY

[mejohnm]

Video like this can be put up for any politician or for one running to be one.

[kcvet]

Trump's more concerned about our national security which is all but gone now. I agree



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeJ-iv3MOTo

[mejohnm]

Sorry, but that video does not tell the truth. Only selecting the worse scenes of a movie does not tell the movie.

[kcvet]

Sorry, but that video does not tell the truth. Only selecting the worse scenes of a movie does not tell the movie.

then you tell us. what is the truth??

[mejohnm]

then you tell us. what is the truth??

Go and see the full movie then judge for yourself. Just do not let a few bad scenes ruin the show before you have seen it.

[kcvet]

Go and see the full movie then judge for yourself. Just do not let a few bad scenes ruin the show before you have seen it.

pray tell show us this movie. Islam is a modern day Trojan horse

[mejohnm]

Have to give kudos for the people who created that video. They achieved exactly what they wanted.

[kcvet]

Have to give kudos for the people who created that video. They achieved exactly what they wanted.

http://i66.tinypic.com/5zl20o.jpg
The Vicious Snake

“Islam is not a religion … but a complete way of life….” Yahiya Emerick, What Islam is All About. Hijrah (immigration) is a means of supplanting the native population and reaching the position of power. In the Charter of Medina, Muhammad outlined the basic rule for Muslims who emigrate to non-Muslim land. They must form a separate body, keeping their own laws and making the host country comply with them.

and the snake is here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44vzMNG2fZc

[mejohnm]

Fear....

Again have to give kudos for the people who created that video. They achieved exactly what they wanted.

[kcvet]

Fear....

Again have to give kudos for the people who created that video. They achieved exactly what they wanted.

you mean the prophet Muhammad. ill file a complaint on your behalf

[mejohnm]

you mean the prophet Muhammad. ill file a complaint on your behalf

ISIS, other extremist and the ones that created that video, but sure you can file a complaint if you think a dead guy made that video.

[Chiefster]

http://balancedrebellion.com/


...That is all.

[matthewschiefs]

The election is Tuesday

I'm not one that post in here often but here's just how I feel about it. Until tonight I was undecided but now I have made up my mind

I can't begin to describe how much of a joke that the choice we have on the ballot is. But tonight I decided I'm doing a write in to help express my feelings about this election

I decided I'm going to write in someone who's popularity somehow is better than either of the two clowns on the ballot

That's right I'm writting in MY MAN ORTON

[TopekaRoy]

I'm writting in MY MAN ORTON

You can't do that!









... because he is My Man Hali now.

[kcvet]

The election is Tuesday

I'm not one that post in here often but here's just how I feel about it. Until tonight I was undecided but now I have made up my mind

I can't begin to describe how much of a joke that the choice we have on the ballot is. But tonight I decided I'm doing a write in to help express my feelings about this election

I decided I'm going to write in someone who's popularity somehow is better than either of the two clowns on the ballot

That's right I'm writting in MY MAN ORTON

there's been a lot of poor choices in the past to. so bad in fact I tossed a coin just before going in

[TopekaRoy]

I'm writing in Joe Maddon for President.

It was eitther him or Ted Nugent!

[matthewschiefs]

I'm writing in Joe Maddon for President.

It was eitther him or Ted Nugent!

Fight me

[Chiefs4life24]

I didn't think you could write in just anyone's name

[tornadospotter]

Tornadospotter for President, write it in, we can create a storm in DC!