The ONLY political and religious thread allowed on Chiefscrowd

[texaschief]

I was, but I outsmarted you! puny American!! :yahoo:

that's not tough to do... look who we just elected president. :lol:

[Hayvern]

You need to go visit some other countries. You may have had it rough, but at least you have the ability, and the resources to fix that.

Well frankly other countries have the resources to change as well, they lack the ability or motivation to make the change. Most just consider it the status quo. Imagine where the US would be today had the original founding fathers not said "Enough is enough?"


Ever wonder why people are always fleeing their country to come to the US. The are leaving everything they ever are for that same chance.

Because they are too lazy to affect change in their own country. Millions of people come to the US illegally because it is easier to come here and drain our economy than it is to stay at your own country and change it.



It can get worse. I am just not sure the President has that much power to sway it either way.


He has some powers with the policies within his control. Executive orders can be pretty powerful thing. Bush created a whole new department of the Government using executive privelage.

[Darth CarlSatan]

Well frankly other countries have the resources to change as well, they lack the ability or motivation to make the change. Most just consider it the status quo. Imagine where the US would be today had the original founding fathers not said "Enough is enough?"



Because they are too lazy to affect change in their own country. Millions of people come to the US illegally because it is easier to come here and drain our economy than it is to stay at your own country and change it.



He has some powers with the policies within his control. Executive orders can be pretty powerful thing. Bush created a whole new department of the Government using executive privelage.

I'd turn this House in to Holland in every way, shape, and form faster than you could say "Windmills and Wooden Shoes".

[Hayvern]

I'd turn this House in to Holland in every way, shape, and form faster than you could say "Windmills and Wooden Shoes".


Legalized drugs not withstanding, I cannot fathom any other reason why we would want to be ANYTHING like any Country in Europe.

Socialism is doomed to failure, there has not been one country on Earth that has survived as long as the US has under socialism.

[Darth CarlSatan]

Legalized drugs not withstanding, I cannot fathom any other reason why we would want to be ANYTHING like any Country in Europe.

Socialism is doomed to failure, there has not been one country on Earth that has survived as long as the US has under socialism.

You're talking about a Country that was a major financier of the American Revolution; I do believe they have their sh*t together.

[Canada]

that's not tough to do... look who we just elected president. :lol:

Forget that, look at the last guy you elected...twice.

[IlovetheChiefs]

I'm a conservative, but it is interesting how lately we've had bad presdients and keep seesawing between the 2 parties. 8 years of Clinton and all the corruption, and the country wants "change" to the other party. Then 8 years of Bush and the country wants "change" to the other party. After 8 years of Obama's Jimmy Carter like incompetence, the country will be ready to "change" back to the Republicans. The 2 party system has now in effect amounted to continual "changing" back and forth with the result that nothing gets better and the mess gets worse.

Ronald Reagan - the last great president. Maybe forever.

[Hayvern]

You're talking about a Country that was a major financier of the American Revolution; I do believe they have their sh*t together.

HAHAHAH over two hundred years ago they financed the American Revolution. I also seem to remember we returned that favor when we bailed out their asses in World War 2.

Tell me, what about Holland today makes them so great other than legalized drugs and prostitution?

Are they a super power? Do they manufacture a lot of goods that the world cannot do without?

Are there people all over the world trying to immigrate to Holland? Do they have 18 million people in their country illegally?

Yeah, they have their **** together alright, at least until the next Hitler comes walking over them again and they come screaming to the US and NATO allies to bail them out.

I don't have any animosity towards Holland in particular, I think it is a much greater country than France for instance. I just don't think any country the size of the state of Maryland is a good candidate to compare Governments with.

[Canada]

Hire me, I will straighten things out!! :)

[Hayvern]

I'm a conservative, but it is interesting how lately we've had bad presdients and keep seesawing between the 2 parties. 8 years of Clinton and all the corruption, and the country wants "change" to the other party. Then 8 years of Bush and the country wants "change" to the other party. After 8 years of Obama's Jimmy Carter like incompetence, the country will be ready to "change" back to the Republicans. The 2 party system has now in effect amounted to continual "changing" back and forth with the result that nothing gets better and the mess gets worse.

Ronald Reagan - the last great president. Maybe forever.

Two party, three party, twenty party, we will always have the problems we have had over the last twenty years. Anyone who has the arrogance that it takes to stand up in front of the American people as a whole and claim that they are the answer to all the questions they have ever asked about Government is doomed to fall short.

Obama will be no different. He wrote more checks that his skinny *** can cash, and he will have to resort to breaking campaign promises or outright lying in order to do anything in Washington.

The bigger problem than the two party system is the stupidity of the American voter.

[IlovetheChiefs]

Oops I thought I was posting in the ONLY political thread because I saw some posts about Bush and Obama. Sorry about that, mods!

[Canada]

HAHAHAH over two hundred years ago they financed the American Revolution. I also seem to remember we returned that favor when we bailed out their asses in World War 2.

ahem...that was Canada...vimy Ridge. Look it up! :bananen_smilies046:

Tell me, what about Holland today makes them so great other than legalized drugs and prostitution?

The beer.

Are they a super power? Do they manufacture a lot of goods that the world cannot do without?

Legal drugs and prostitution!! :D ...and beer.

Are there people all over the world trying to immigrate to Holland? Do they have 18 million people in their country illegally?

No, its harder to get into Holland than it is the US!

Yeah, they have their **** together alright, at least until the next Hitler comes walking over them again and they come screaming to the US and NATO allies to bail them out.

Just call Canada!

I don't have any animosity towards Holland in particular, I think it is a much greater country than France for instance. I just don't think any country the size of the state of Maryland is a good candidate to compare Governments with.

I would be careful before comparing a country like the US against a country like Holland. Check out some stats on Healthcare, Homelessness, unemployment, quality of living, Urban overcrowding. Making war does not make you the best country.

[Darth CarlSatan]

I'm a conservative, but it is interesting how lately we've had bad presdients and keep seesawing between the 2 parties. 8 years of Clinton and all the corruption, and the country wants "change" to the other party. Then 8 years of Bush and the country wants "change" to the other party. After 8 years of Obama's Jimmy Carter like incompetence, the country will be ready to "change" back to the Republicans. The 2 party system has now in effect amounted to continual "changing" back and forth with the result that nothing gets better and the mess gets worse.

Ronald Reagan - the last great president. Maybe forever.

Yes, let's be sure to jump right in call and Obama's Term a bust before he even takes Office; your Nostradomic powers are just mind-boggling.

And lets see...
1) High Gas Prices

2) Jihad in the Mid-East directed right at America and it's allies,
and
3) The economy squarely in the sh*tter.

Sounds to me like Jimmy Carter is ALREADY in the White House!
Good thing he's cleaning his desk out as we speak, yes?

[Canada]

Sorry, Vimy ridge was WW1, Dieppe is where Canada kicked a$$ is WW2

[Hayvern]

I would be careful before comparing a country like the US against a country like Holland. Check out some stats on Healthcare, Homelessness, unemployment, quality of living, Urban overcrowding. Making war does not make you the best country.

That was my point. You could also consider the fact that they are not as ethnically diverse as we are, they clearly do not have the land mass that we do. Their problems are unique to their size, where America's problems are unique to our size. It would be a better, more direct comparison to compare us with China or Russia in sheer size and population.

When you do that... we don't look so bad now do we?

[Canada]

That was my point. You could also consider the fact that they are not as ethnically diverse as we are, they clearly do not have the land mass that we do. Their problems are unique to their size, where America's problems are unique to our size. It would be a better, more direct comparison to compare us with China or Russia in sheer size and population.

When you do that... we don't look so bad now do we?

Yeah, but compared to Canada you suck!! :lol:

[Hayvern]

Yeah, but compared to Canada you suck!! :lol:

I have been told the reason it is so windy on the Great Lakes is because Canada sucks, now you are trying to tell me different?

:yahoo:

[Canada]

I have been told the reason it is so windy on the Great Lakes is because Canada sucks, now you are trying to tell me different?

:yahoo:

I was talking about Canada the guy not the country. No need to be insulting.

[Darth CarlSatan]

That was my point. You could also consider the fact that they are not as ethnically diverse as we are, they clearly do not have the land mass that we do. Their problems are unique to their size, where America's problems are unique to our size. It would be a better, more direct comparison to compare us with China or Russia in sheer size and population.

When you do that... we don't look so bad now do we?

No, they're NOT a Superpower; they're self-contained, self supporting Country and Society that knows how to live and let live, as well as how to mind their own f*cking business!

In short; ideal.

[tornadospotter]

Yeah, but compared to Canada you suck!! :lol:
But we are warmer than you, so you suck!!!:D

[Canada]

But we are warmer than you, so you suck!!!:D

What wrong with you guys? Being such jerks.

PS You suck. Don't make me come down there with a no parking sign!!

[Canada]

But we are warmer than you, so you suck!!!:D

So by that logic, you suck compared to Mexico!! :p

[tornadospotter]

What wrong with you guys? Being such jerks.

PS You suck. Don't make me come down there with a no parking sign!!
Hey bring on that no parking sign, I have no fear of it, just bring Big Dan along!


So by that logic, you suck compared to Mexico!! :p
Lets all go to Mexico!!!!:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :beer:

[Hayvern]

No, they're NOT a Superpower; they're self-contained, self supporting Country and Society that knows how to live and let live, as well as how to mind their own f*cking business!

In short; ideal.

Ahh so I finally figured it out. You are an isolationist. OK, so am I, I think we should stay out of the world's affairs more, I think we need to be self supportive and self sufficient.

However, if we had remained that way in World War 2, it is very likely that we would be talking about the United Empire of Germany instead of Holland.

[tornadospotter]

Truth has been spoken.

[tammietailgator]

You need to go visit some other countries. You may have had it rough, but at least you have the ability, and the resources to fix that.

Ever wonder why people are always fleeing their country to come to the US. The are leaving everything they ever are for that same chance.

It can get worse. I am just not sure the President has that much power to sway it either way.

I am in a position for the first time in my life that I do not know how I am going to make it... my husband cannot work yet and we are struggling to make it. But I will not blame the government for this. Its just life and I have to figure it out.... at least I live in a country that I have the capability to dig out of this. We have decided to teach the kids what Christmas is all about - they never quite listened with all the new presents they usually get.

[tornadospotter]

I am in a position for the first time in my life that I do not know how I am going to make it... my husband cannot work yet and we are struggling to make it. But I will not blame the government for this. Its just life and I have to figure it out.... at least I live in a country that I have the capability to dig out of this. We have decided to teach the kids what Christmas is all about - they never quite listened with all the new presents they usually get.
I now how you feel, I am still not employed, and my wife is asking when we can go christmas shopping, I do not know.

[Sn@keIze]

Hire me, I will straighten things out!! :)Im not sure if throwing beer at our problems will straighten things out.:bananen_smilies046:

Hey waitasec, can we focus ont the thread subject, this isnt Politics. Chiefs will go 6-2 the next 8 games.

[tammietailgator]

I now how you feel, I am still not employed, and my wife is asking when we can go christmas shopping, I do not know.

I am suggesting White Elephant Christmas across the board as far as presents go! :yahoo:

[texaschief]

Yes, let's be sure to jump right in call and Obama's Term a bust before he even takes Office; your Nostradomic powers are just mind-boggling.

And lets see...
1) High Gas Prices

2) Jihad in the Mid-East directed right at America and it's allies,
and
3) The economy squarely in the sh*tter.

Sounds to me like Jimmy Carter is ALREADY in the White House!
Good thing he's cleaning his desk out as we speak, yes?

lol. yeah, federalize people's 401k like what Obama wants to do, and we're gonna see a bad stock market go to a non-existent stock market. Things might be bad now, but wait till homeboy gets control of things. The market dropped nearly 15% since he's been elected. If he is serious about taking over the 401k to fund social security, ALL that money from ppl's 401's that are being invested will be yanked out of that market and the WHOLE DAMN THING is gonna crash.

I just pray he's not THAT stupid... but hey, he IS a liberal.

[chief31]

It looks like Christianity is a dead horse in this country.
It will always be impossible to separate politics and religion as long as the Democratic party supports gay rights and abortion.
Lets just cancel Christmas this year. No need to celebrate the birth of Christ when we have Obama to lead us to the promise land. Just think - no Christmas lights to hang, no long lines at the stores, no children opening presents under the Christmas tree.
JMHO.

Abortion is very emotional subject, and I won't get too far into that. But I will say that the federal government should have very little do with those decisions. The states should be be dealing with that, individually.

Gay right/marriage is just a simple case of minding our own business.

That is one thing that really bothers me about religion. They always feel the need to force people to live by their morals.

I think that Christianity is a good thing. But The Bible does make mention of not forcing people into it. In my opinion, that would include not forcing others to live by Christian values.


I'm a conservative, but it is interesting how lately we've had bad presdients and keep seesawing between the 2 parties. 8 years of Clinton and all the corruption, and the country wants "change" to the other party. Then 8 years of Bush and the country wants "change" to the other party. After 8 years of Obama's Jimmy Carter like incompetence, the country will be ready to "change" back to the Republicans. The 2 party system has now in effect amounted to continual "changing" back and forth with the result that nothing gets better and the mess gets worse.

Ronald Reagan - the last great president. Maybe forever.

I hate both parties. One side will not be happy until there are enough prisons to house the majority of the country. While the other won't be happy until nobody is allowed to make a decision on their own

Which is which? They are both the same.

And Reagan did little more than take out a huge loan, that made for a good-looking economy, that lasted all of eight years.

And it would have lasted al little longer, if not for the billions he spent on his war against peoples' right to decide for themselves about narcotics.


No, they're NOT a Superpower; they're self-contained, self supporting Country and Society that knows how to live and let live, as well as how to mind their own f*cking business!

In short; ideal.

Sounds like what this nation was intended to be about. Minding your own business.


Ahh so I finally figured it out. You are an isolationist. OK, so am I, I think we should stay out of the world's affairs more, I think we need to be self supportive and self sufficient.

However, if we had remained that way in World War 2, it is very likely that we would be talking about the United Empire of Germany instead of Holland.

The Germans, as any other military force that tries to govern over so many other nations, would have been over-turned without us.

Whenever you try to rule over other nations like that, you are fighting an endless war. The opposition never gives up.

Europe will never be united, as long as human beings are still at the top of the food chain.

[spiman]

Hey bring on that no parking sign, I have no fear of it, just bring Big Dan along!


Lets all go to Mexico!!!!:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :beer: Have you been to Calif. lately? Feels like Mexico..:bananen_smilies046:

[Bike]

That is one thing that really bothers me about religion. They always feel the need to force people to live by their morals.

I think that Christianity is a good thing. But The Bible does make mention of not forcing people into it. In my opinion, that would include not forcing others to live by Christian values.

I'm not forcing you to be a Christian.
I'm not forcing you to celebrate Christmas with your children.
This is a free country. Make your own religious choices.

[chief31]

I'm not forcing you to be a Christian.
I'm not forcing you to celebrate Christmas with your children.
This is a free country. Make your own religious choices.

But, when you dictate rather other people, who have nothing to do with you, can be married to each other, based on your religious beliefs, by electing politicians who will make laws to that effect, then you are forcing your morals on others.

The fact that you are not making me celabrate Christmas, doesn't mean that you aren't trying to force your religious agendas on anyone?

Just becuase Barry Bonds didn't take "Steroid #45" doesn't change that he took steroids.

Christian values and morals should be a choice of the individual, not any politician.

I appreciate most Christian values. I think that the things that Christ stood for are of the absolute most admirable.

But I don't think that anyone should be forced, by law, to live within the guidelines of Christian values.

[hardcorechiefsfan]

I hate this thread but I will say one thing about Christianity. It is about morals, what everyone knows is right and wrong. Morals doesn't have to do with the fact that you might stay home so you don't miss the chiefs game on tv instead of go to church. Only you can decide that. Its not my place to judge you if you do or don't go to church.
Abortion IS a touchy subject but it is also a subject of morals. To me I can't understand how people can support abortion. That dear sweet baby, that is just a inconvenience to the mother, never asked to be conceived and to have his/her life torn away just like that. For someone to even think of abortion brings tears to my eyes. I don't judge anyone who has had an abortion for its between them and the Lord but if I can get someone to think of other options other than abortion, I will try.
I feel that there should be a gov't checks and balances for things that are morally wrong.
I've said my piece even though I know that you all think differently than I do.

[chief31]

I hate this thread but I will say one thing about Christianity. It is about morals, what everyone knows is right and wrong. Morals doesn't have to do with the fact that you might stay home so you don't miss the chiefs game on tv instead of go to church. Only you can decide that. Its not my place to judge you if you do or don't go to church.
Abortion IS a touchy subject but it is also a subject of morals. To me I can't understand how people can support abortion. That dear sweet baby, that is just a inconvenience to the mother, never asked to be conceived and to have his/her life torn away just like that. For someone to even think of abortion brings tears to my eyes. I don't judge anyone who has had an abortion for its between them and the Lord but if I can get someone to think of other options other than abortion, I will try.
I feel that there should be a gov't checks and balances for things that are morally wrong.
I've said my piece even though I know that you all think differently than I do.

Plenty will agree your views on the subject. And I don't disagree with your feelings on the subject, myself.

All that I really disagree with is allowing the government to put their nose in the matter.

The government has no business inside of anyones body.

I believe that, for all of the good that Abraham Lincoln did, he really destroyed what was the greatest government that was ever created.

Obviously, he had the best of intentions. By trying to enforce that the federal government recognized black people as human beings, and Americans.

But, in doing so, he took the states' power to be, primarily independent of the federal government. Thus, crushing the very foundation of what had been created by Thomas Jefferson and the other 'Founding Fathers'.

That being said, there is a fine line, where a fetus is capable of withstanding removal from the mother that it is entirely dependent upon.

At the absolute most, the federal government could consider that stage of life the beginning of their citizenship and their rights, in my opinion. (Quite a stretch)And individual states could take that further.

But if, as a society, we are not willing to properly raise unwanted children, then what gives us he right to tell anyone that they must care for a child?

By doing so, we are setting ourselves up for an even uglier situation, with mental, physical and mental abuse, neglect, and often the unthinkable.

So, it is my opinion, that if we choose to force the "right to life" issue, then we need to be prepared to care for the children that are unwanted, as there is no way to force people to do the right thing, when forced to support another.

And currently, there is nowhere near enough care being offered for existing unwanted, and mistreated children.

So, until we are willing to step up and take care of all of these unwanted and mis-treated children, then I don't feel like we have any right to force life unto more of them.

And government agencies do a horrible job of caring for children. So it really needs to be the citizens, themselves who offer genuine care for them.

P.S. In the meantime, stem cell research really needs to be funded.

[hardcorechiefsfan]

Plenty will agree your views on the subject. And I don't disagree with your feelings on the subject, myself.

All that I really disagree with is allowing the government to put their nose in the matter.


But, in doing so, he took the states' power to be, primarily independent of the federal government. Thus, crushing the very foundation of what had been created by Thomas Jefferson and the other 'Founding Fathers'.
The Founding Fathers were pious men and started this country with good Christian values in mind.

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge[Judicial branch], the LORD is our lawgiver[Legislative branch],
the LORD is our king[Executive branch];
He will save us.”

Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.
“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.” (George Washington)

All these founding father quotes and more are at http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm .




But if, as a society, we are not willing to properly raise unwanted children, then what gives us he right to tell anyone that they must care for a child?

So, it is my opinion, that if we choose to force the "right to life" issue, then we need to be prepared to care for the children that are unwanted, as there is no way to force people to do the right thing, when forced to support another.

And currently, there is nowhere near enough care being offered for existing unwanted, and mistreated children.

So, until we are willing to step up and take care of all of these unwanted and mis-treated children, then I don't feel like we have any right to force life unto more of them.

And government agencies do a horrible job of caring for children. So it really needs to be the citizens, themselves who offer genuine care for them.

P.S. In the meantime, stem cell research really needs to be funded.
When the child is not wanted, there is another option. There are alot of people in this country that want so desperately to have a child and want to adopt the "unwanted" babies.

[Bike]

The only thing I have to say about abortion is:
What about the baby? You surely don't think the baby doesn't experience pain or have feelings when he/she is aborted? I hate to even think of it. And I don't ask this due to my conservative or religious beliefs...
I am certainly glad that we weren't aborted!
I also believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But hey, if somebody wants to marry a donkey, go for it! I just don't want my taxes to pay for the donkeys' benefits.
This is why it is so difficult to separate politics and religious beliefs, as one begets the other many times.
Don't get me wrong; I'm glad we live in a diverse country with people from all backgrounds and beliefs. I am simply stating what I believe...

[Chiefster]

The only thing I have to say about abortion is:
What about the baby? You surely don't think the baby doesn't experience pain or have feelings when he/she is aborted? I hate to even think of it. And I don't ask this due to my conservative or religious beliefs...
I am certainly glad that we weren't aborted!
I also believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. But hey, if somebody wants to marry a donkey, go for it! I just don't want my taxes to pay for the donkeys' benefits.
This is why it is so difficult to separate politics and religious beliefs, as one begets the other many times.
Don't get me wrong; I'm glad we live in a diverse country with people from all backgrounds and beliefs. I am simply stating what I believe...

Well put!

[Chiefster]

I hate this thread but I will say one thing about Christianity. It is about morals, what everyone knows is right and wrong. Morals doesn't have to do with the fact that you might stay home so you don't miss the chiefs game on tv instead of go to church. Only you can decide that. Its not my place to judge you if you do or don't go to church.
Abortion IS a touchy subject but it is also a subject of morals. To me I can't understand how people can support abortion. That dear sweet baby, that is just a inconvenience to the mother, never asked to be conceived and to have his/her life torn away just like that. For someone to even think of abortion brings tears to my eyes. I don't judge anyone who has had an abortion for its between them and the Lord but if I can get someone to think of other options other than abortion, I will try.
I feel that there should be a gov't checks and balances for things that are morally wrong.
I've said my piece even though I know that you all think differently than I do.

The father of said baby is no less responsible.

[Sn@keIze]

Im gainst the thread but couldnt help myself.

Anyway, I like Obama because he is actually MORE close to godliness (instead of traditional republicans) in other words.........Let people have free will! Like god does.

According to you Bibles...God says let people have free will and deal with the consequences.

Yes I understand it affects others (like aborted babies). But hey, welcome to planet earth.......SH!T happens.

[chief31]

The Founding Fathers were pious men and started this country with good Christian values in mind.

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge[Judicial branch], the LORD is our lawgiver[Legislative branch],
the LORD is our king[Executive branch];
He will save us.”

Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.
“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.” (George Washington)

All these founding father quotes and more are at http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm .




When the child is not wanted, there is another option. There are alot of people in this country that want so desperately to have a child and want to adopt the "unwanted" babies.

And yet they found it wise to separate the two concepts.

Where they had seen other religions forced upon the people, they wanted to ensure that this country would not take part in that.

I don't see how anyone can argue that "Freedom of reliogion" and "separation of church and state" can be misinterpreted.

Yes, they had Christian morals. But they didn't make laws that would favor those beliefs over those of another. And they set-up the system so that that would never happen.

[rbedgood]

And yet they found it wise to separate the two concepts.

Where they had seen other religions forced upon the people, they wanted to ensure that this country would not take part in that.

I don't see how anyone can argue that "Freedom of reliogion" and "separation of church and state" can be misinterpreted.

Yes, they had Christian morals. But they didn't make laws that would favor those beliefs over those of another. And they set-up the system so that that would never happen.

Actually Chief31 if you were to look back at their quotes in context it wasn't an issue of Christianity vs. other religions (or atheism, agnostics, etc.) but rather the persecution of their time and that they were concerned with was between denominations (ie. Catholic vs. Protestant)...As such it is hard to really use those quotes to argue how they would've responded to these situations. It clearly wasn't an issue in their day.

I am a Christian, however I agree with Chief31's comment earlier that the Federal Government should not be involved with most of these issues. (Gay Marriage, etc)...as we are a Republic of Democratic states (Not a straight Democracy)...what this is supposed to mean is that we have a limited Federal Government that simply unites the more powerful Independent State Governments.

I personally do believe that Abortion is a more difficult and complex issue. The argument really comes down to whether or not the baby inside the mom is a human life. If it is, as most Pro-life advocates would argue, then abortion is murder. As it is currently deemed legal, then the justice system has currently decided that baby isn't a life...unless of course someone kills a pregnant women, then they go on trial for double murder. How ironic that the legal system contradicts itself. I'm not going to change anything in our system by continuing this argument. At the end of the day, I believe that it is murder, and as such I would argue it can be a legal and political issue. However most of these other 'moral' issues are things that don't hurt others, and as such you are right, they should be left for God to judge at the end.

[chief31]

Actually Chief31 if you were to look back at their quotes in context it wasn't an issue of Christianity vs. other religions (or atheism, agnostics, etc.) but rather the persecution of their time and that they were concerned with was between denominations (ie. Catholic vs. Protestant)...As such it is hard to really use those quotes to argue how they would've responded to these situations. It clearly wasn't an issue in their day.



And instead of making it to where their beliefs were to be installed into the government, they went out of their way to to ensure that the government would not take sides in matters of religious issues.

The quote is freedom of religion, not freedom of Christian religion. It's not like there were no other religions here.

They created the system to allow each indiviual to choose. And they specifically included religion. Just as they didn't set it up for everything to favor them as kings, they didn't set it up for their religions to be kings.

[rbedgood]

And instead of making it to where their beliefs were to be installed into the government, they went out of their way to to ensure that the government would not take sides in matters of religious issues.

The quote is freedom of religion, not freedom of Christian religion. It's not like there were no other religions here.

They created the system to allow each indiviual to choose. And they specifically included religion. Just as they didn't set it up for everything to favor them as kings, they didn't set it up for their religions to be kings.

Your misunderstanding me brother. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be freedom of religion. I'm saying that the quotes from their time period aren't in the complete context of today's cultural diversity.

I do think that most of these issues should be completely state issues, and I simply stated that the arguments on the abortion issue are a bit more complex.

[Guru]

Hire me, I will straighten things out!! :)Sorry but it will take more than beer and your charming personality to straighten this backwards country out.:D:bananen_smilies046:

[chief31]

Sorry but it will take more than beer and your charming personality to straighten this backwards country out.:D:bananen_smilies046:

And the damn Republicans ousted the only man who willing to even start on that job. Ron Paul.

All other candidates are just trying to fix things by adding more crap on top of the existing crap.

Noone else is willing to tear it down and start over.

RON PAUL in '12!!!!!

[Chiefster]

Actually Chief31 if you were to look back at their quotes in context it wasn't an issue of Christianity vs. other religions (or atheism, agnostics, etc.) but rather the persecution of their time and that they were concerned with was between denominations (ie. Catholic vs. Protestant)...As such it is hard to really use those quotes to argue how they would've responded to these situations. It clearly wasn't an issue in their day.

I am a Christian, however I agree with Chief31's comment earlier that the Federal Government should not be involved with most of these issues. (Gay Marriage, etc)...as we are a Republic of Democratic states (Not a straight Democracy)...what this is supposed to mean is that we have a limited Federal Government that simply unites the more powerful Independent State Governments.

I personally do believe that Abortion is a more difficult and complex issue. The argument really comes down to whether or not the baby inside the mom is a human life. If it is, as most Pro-life advocates would argue, then abortion is murder. As it is currently deemed legal, then the justice system has currently decided that baby isn't a life...unless of course someone kills a pregnant women, then they go on trial for double murder. How ironic that the legal system contradicts itself. I'm not going to change anything in our system by continuing this argument. At the end of the day, I believe that it is murder, and as such I would argue it can be a legal and political issue. However most of these other 'moral' issues are things that don't hurt others, and as such you are right, they should be left for God to judge at the end.

Good post, one of which needs not to be expounded upon.

[tammietailgator]

All I have to say is thank you to the veterans that have fought for this country - giving me the right to cast my vote. Giving me the chance to live free.

Veterans Day!

Hey and I hope our chiefs army friend had a great time at the game last week!

[Darth CarlSatan]

All I have to say is thank you to the veterans that have fought for this country - giving me the right to cast my vote. Giving me the chance to live free.

Veterans Day!

Hey and I hope our chiefs army friend had a great time at the game last week!

Yep; Nothing but Respect and Admiration for Those That Serve!
I'll question the motives our leaders until hell freezes over, but the American Soldier get's ONLY Respect.

Thank You for Your Service!
:bananen_smilies046:

[Bike]

And the damn Republicans ousted the only man who willing to even start on that job. Ron Paul.

All other candidates are just trying to fix things by adding more crap on top of the existing crap.

Noone else is willing to tear it down and start over.

RON PAUL in '12!!!!!
You are so right here. Needed is some bulldozers and a complete clearing and start over again.
Paul was my choice....

[Canada]

Yeah, Ron Jeremy in '12!!!

[Drunker Hillbilly]

Yeah, Ron Jeremy in '12!!!
Man crush of yours? Ewwwwww!!!!

[Canada]

Man crush of yours? Ewwwwww!!!!


He's no LJ/Hillbilly, but I like his work!! :bananen_smilies046:

[Drunker Hillbilly]

He's no LJ/Hillbilly, but I like his work!! :bananen_smilies046:
Not surprising you would like the work of a fat hairy dude!

[Canada]

Not surprising you would like the work of a fat hairy dude!

At least RJ is allowed to work. Where has LJ been? :p

[Drunker Hillbilly]

At least RJ is allowed to work. Where has LJ been? :p
Not workin makin millions more than Jeremy ever did!!

[Chiefster]

All I have to say is thank you to the veterans that have fought for this country - giving me the right to cast my vote. Giving me the chance to live free.

Veterans Day!

Hey and I hope our chiefs army friend had a great time at the game last week!


Yep; Nothing but Respect and Admiration for Those That Serve!
I'll question the motives our leaders until hell freezes over, but the American Soldier get's ONLY Respect.

Thank You for Your Service!
:bananen_smilies046:

Ditto that!

[Canada]

Not workin makin millions more than Jeremy ever did!!

So your man crush is super rich!! :sign0098:

[Drunker Hillbilly]

So your man crush is super rich!! :sign0098:
And yours is super hairy!!:sign0098:

[Bike]

Yeah, Ron Jeremy in '12!!!
Chiefs sure could use RJ. He could sure fill some holes!!!:bananen_smilies046:

[Canada]

Chiefs sure could use RJ. He could sure fill some holes!!!:bananen_smilies046::lol::lol::lol::lol::l ol:

[tornadospotter]

Might get some heat on this one, but she makes a very good point.




LADY Educates U.S. Senators On The 2nd Amendment


This lady does a great job of explaining herself, and the 2nd amendment. This is good, and is a must watch video!


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p (http://webmail.hamilton.net/Redirect/video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p)>

[Chiefster]

Might get some heat on this one, but she makes a very good point.




LADY Educates U.S. Senators On The 2nd Amendment


This lady does a great job of explaining herself, and the 2nd amendment. This is good, and is a must watch video!


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p (http://webmail.hamilton.net/Redirect/video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p)>

Linky no worky.

[tornadospotter]

Linky no worky.
Well then fix it!
Ok I will try. :character00269:

[Chiefster]

Well then fix it!
Ok I will try. :character00269:

Can no fixy linky. :D

[tornadospotter]

YouTube - Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment!

Here it is.

[Chiefster]

Linky now worky; I had to play that one again!

[AkChief49]

good vid!

[Darth CarlSatan]

I want my own compound too!

[Hayvern]

I want my own compound too!

So, since people seem to want to discuss politics, then lets do it in the right location.

By the way, Obama really is stinking up the place, he had no business being elected to President and people are starting to wake up to that fact now.

There, the gauntlet is lying right there!!!

[kcvet]

WTF is he waiting for in afghan???? kids are dying. this could be another nam !!!!

[Vanilla Garilla]

So, since people seem to want to discuss politics, then lets do it in the right location.

By the way, Obama really is stinking up the place, he had no business being elected to President and people are starting to wake up to that fact now.

There, the gauntlet is lying right there!!!

I call BS on that one Vern. At least Obama is trying to work on some issues that have been plaguing our country. Unlike our last president (who i stupidly voted for) that did absolutely nothing for us in his last term.

Cash for Clunkers- Big Plus
At least working on a health care reform bill- Big Plus
Increasing unemployment benefits and adding emergency extension- Huge plus.

Now those things were accomplished in less than a year in office, can you name me a few equal things that Bush did in a year? Doubt it.

Can you tell me what John McCain would be doing differently and better right now if he were elected?

There, The gauntlet continues.

[Hayvern]

Cash for Clunkers- Big Plus.

Not really. It worked for a couple of months (before the money ran out) and what has it done. Car makers are back to where they were before, many of them had to wait a long time to get paid for the cars and I am still not sure all of them got their money still.

Additionally, people are now getting those cars repossessed. I was talking to a tow truck driver friend of mine the other day and he says he gets on average 5 calls per day to repossess brand new cars that were bought during cash for clunkers.

Funny, people who did not have car payments before, and did not have to carry full coverage insurance before went out an bought new cars that now have to have a 50% increase in insurance costs and a car payment they did not have before. Really smart!


At least working on a health care reform bill- Big Plus

He's not doing crap with that, going out and talking about it, but he has not picked up a pencil on it. The entire thing has been written by congress and the senate, he has not really even come out and said what he wants in it, just goes out and tries to sell something that is not even complete yet. And we all better hope it does not pass!


Increasing unemployment benefits and adding emergency extension- Huge plus.

Bush did this multiple times, I am not here to defend Bush, but every president who has been in difficult economic times in recent years has done this. Nothing special here, in fact it is so common as to be expected.

The guantlet has been officially left lying in the original place!

[Vanilla Garilla]

Not really. It worked for a couple of months (before the money ran out) and what has it done. Car makers are back to where they were before, many of them had to wait a long time to get paid for the cars and I am still not sure all of them got their money still.

Additionally, people are now getting those cars repossessed. I was talking to a tow truck driver friend of mine the other day and he says he gets on average 5 calls per day to repossess brand new cars that were bought during cash for clunkers.

Funny, people who did not have car payments before, and did not have to carry full coverage insurance before went out an bought new cars that now have to have a 50% increase in insurance costs and a car payment they did not have before. Really smart!


So with that mind frame, then you must think the new home owners tax credit is a waste too???

It gets people into new houses for the first time and they actually have to make payments! Shocking!

Listen, It is still and will always be the responsibility of the consumer to make sure they can afford a product or not. Just because they can buy something at a discounted price, does not mean that every tom, dick, and sally is going to run out and buy one.

I am a huge supporter of Cash for Clunkers as I think it has helped in a wide variety of circumstances:

Car dealerships seen a big boom in car sales

Made newer cars a little bit more affordable for the typical car buyer

And, it also helped in getting some more fuel efficient vehicles on the road.

I really don't see the downside to this program, you can argue about people not paying their bills all you want, but the truth is THAT'S ALL ON THEM, nobody forced them to buy something that they couldn't afford.

[Hayvern]

So with that mind frame, then you must think the new home owners tax credit is a waste too???

It gets people into new houses for the first time and they actually have to make payments! Shocking!

Actually, it is not a bad idea except for the fact that it is doing THE VERY THING THAT GOT US INTO THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Seriously, it helps people who SHOULD NOT BE BUYING houses, get into a house with less money down. The very thing that got us where we are today.

There are also plans to allow banks to loan money for the 3% downpayment that is required, once again allowing buyers to get into a house with completely NO MONEY DOWN. This is stupid.


Listen, It is still and will always be the responsibility of the consumer to make sure they can afford a product or not. Just because they can buy something at a discounted price, does not mean that every tom, dick, and sally is going to run out and buy one.

This is entirely the point though, Cash for Clunkers is turning into the same problem we had before with the housing crisis. Just with less money and the fact that the mortgage companies are not going to lose as much on it since the vehicle depreciation was covered by the clunkers program.


I am a huge supporter of Cash for Clunkers as I think it has helped in a wide variety of circumstances:

Car dealerships seen a big boom in car sales

Made newer cars a little bit more affordable for the typical car buyer

And, it also helped in getting some more fuel efficient vehicles on the road.

I really don't see the downside to this program, you can argue about people not paying their bills all you want, but the truth is THAT'S ALL ON THEM, nobody forced them to buy something that they couldn't afford.

No, here is where you are very very wrong. It is all on the loan company that gave them the money. It is good the repossessions are happening now since the price of the car has not depreciated so much where the loan company cannot get most of it back, but in a couple more months this is no longer the case.

Who will be asked to help out once again when these loan companies have to get an infusion of cash? All of us, so once again, we are bailing out the stupid people who spent over their ability to pay. This is not smart fiscal sense.

It would have all been better had we just given 50 billion to the car companies and left it at that. Oh, wait, we did that too.

[kcvet]

I call BS on that one Vern. At least Obama is trying to work on some issues that have been plaguing our country. Unlike our last president (who i stupidly voted for) that did absolutely nothing for us in his last term.

Cash for Clunkers- Big Plus
At least working on a health care reform bill- Big Plus
Increasing unemployment benefits and adding emergency extension- Huge plus.

Now those things were accomplished in less than a year in office, can you name me a few equal things that Bush did in a year? Doubt it.

Can you tell me what John McCain would be doing differently and better right now if he were elected?

There, The gauntlet continues.

Cash for Clunkers- IOU

At least working on a health care reform bill - that not even the liberals want. he had the $$$ to fix in Jan. chose instead to blow that on stim pack. deathcare fails sharks come crusin'

Increasing unemployment benefits and adding emergency extension - unempolyment almost at 10%. now worst in 38 years. stim pack??? EPIC FAIL

unprecedented - over 2 trillion of taxpayers $$$ (yours) blown in less the 8 mons. 10 trillion projected. did Bush top this??? didn't think so.

DC madam wants another stim pack why

she also want illegals legal to vote for her brown shirts.

foreign policy - there is none. he's murdering kids every day in afghan

short version. want long???

you helped make this f***kin' sandwich so opn wide your gonna eat it !!!

[kcvet]

repost

[Vanilla Garilla]

Actually, it is not a bad idea except for the fact that it is doing THE VERY THING THAT GOT US INTO THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Seriously, it helps people who SHOULD NOT BE BUYING houses, get into a house with less money down. The very thing that got us where we are today.

There are also plans to allow banks to loan money for the 3% downpayment that is required, once again allowing buyers to get into a house with completely NO MONEY DOWN. This is stupid.


I have to respectfully disagree greatly with this point your making. Lets take a look at my case, and some buddies of mine that have received the first time home buyers tax credit.

I am paying $600 a month rent right now, and have been for several years. When i buy a house next year, the first time buyers loan is going to allow me to actually own my own home, without having as much down, and actually have cheaper payment than what i am paying for rent. I can easily afford the $450 home payment that i am looking at, so how is this bad?

My buddies were in the same situation, wasting all their money on rent for years, and last year they all started buying their own homes, and actually have more cash in their pocket since their payments are generally lower than what they were paying for rent.

Yes their are people that do not pay their bills, and yes their always will be. But once again this is the responsibility of the consumer.

[kcvet]

with frank and Acorn running the housing market its all gonna blow up agin !!

[Hayvern]

I have to respectfully disagree greatly with this point your making. Lets take a look at my case, and some buddies of mine that have received the first time home buyers tax credit.

I am paying $600 a month rent right now, and have been for several years. When i buy a house next year, the first time buyers loan is going to allow me to actually own my own home, without having as much down, and actually have cheaper payment than what i am paying for rent. I can easily afford the $450 home payment that i am looking at, so how is this bad?

My buddies were in the same situation, wasting all their money on rent for years, and last year they all started buying their own homes, and actually have more cash in their pocket since their payments are generally lower than what they were paying for rent.

Yes their are people that do not pay their bills, and yes their always will be. But once again this is the responsibility of the consumer.

We will likely have to agree to disagree, however, the first thing that comes to mind between owning your home and renting it is the upkeep costs. You might be able to afford that house payment of $450, but can you THEN afford the new roof, the new water heater? How about when the plumbing breaks? The stove goes on the fritz?

It allowed you to get into a home, I don't know your situation, you may very well be able to afford it, if so, then congratulations, you are a winner! Many others on the other hand, cannot afford it and should not be allowed to by, yet they are going to qualify for a loan because the government is giving them money for a downpayment they do not have.

[Chiefster]

Wow! Someone went mining to dig up this relic. :D

[tammietailgator]

I agree with vern on this one... and you more than likely can afford your new home... you may even be able to cover the costs for repairs. I find the problem to be with all of the "creative financing" that took place over the last 15 years.... creating a market that virtually everyone can qualify for a loan even with bad credit.

[SIC J]

All I can say is that I'm not really a big fan of Obama or McCain. but I definately would rather have Obama as Pres than McCain. You guys can trash talk Obama all you want but he was the better choice. McCain is another Bush, and well we know that didnt work out. Not to mention the guy is still OLD school. I mean for crying out loud, McCain doesn't even know how to send an email!

I hope the guy can make some good moves to get this country back in the right direction.

[Hayvern]

All I can say is that I'm not really a big fan of Obama or McCain. but I definately would rather have Obama as Pres than McCain. You guys can trash talk Obama all you want but he was the better choice. McCain is another Bush, and well we know that didnt work out. Not to mention the guy is still OLD school. I mean for crying out loud, McCain doesn't even know how to send an email!

I hope the guy can make some good moves to get this country back in the right direction.

WOW, I mean I did not realize that one of the main qualifications for being President is the ability to send an e-mail. Geez, I guess George Washington sucked because of that one.

I could care less about how much about technology the PResident knows. Apparently Obama doesn't know the difference between NTSC and PAL, since he sent a bunch of DVDs to the Royalty in England that would not play on their equipment. So apparently even this guy has his technology challenges, I mean really, who doesn't know that Europe is on the PAL system?

Oh, and as for being old, I think that is a sign of wisdom and intelligence, something the younger people in this country have in very short supply. It's alright, it is a sign of immaturity, you can still vote for your ideals of saving the seals, kissing the tress, you can still be brainwashed into all of that nonsense because you are too young to have had any experiences to form an opinion on. But eventually, you will learn that it is all BS.

Man, I remember when I was in grade school and was learning about how the next ice age was going to kill us all, that we had to ban Chloroflourocarbons and Ozone because it was cooling the atmosphere and we were all going to be buried in ice.

The next thing they started on was global warming, except for the short trip through the Year 2K bug that was going to end the earth. But not long after Y2K, now we have "climate change" since the earth is no longer warming and is cooling again, well that is even MORE sign that people are idiots.

And every new scientific fact is taught in school to the young heads full of mush who formulate their opinions on who they are going to vote for based on what they were taught in school. Nevermind what they were taught was faulty, it has to be right because my teacher told me it was.

I want an older person in office, even Bush was too young to be President. I want someone who has been around for awhile and has learned a thing or two because all the younger guys that get elected screw it all up.

:wheelchair:

[kcvet]

All I can say is that I'm not really a big fan of Obama or McCain. but I definately would rather have Obama as Pres than McCain. You guys can trash talk Obama all you want but he was the better choice. McCain is another Bush, and well we know that didnt work out. Not to mention the guy is still OLD school. I mean for crying out loud, McCain doesn't even know how to send an email!

I hope the guy can make some good moves to get this country back in the right direction.

McCain is a liberal. OLD school are morons like Reid and Murtha. who fall asleep in the senate. McCain can send email. but there's a reason he can't. what is it ?????

[kcvet]

now's the time to buy a home. call your ACORN rep today !!!!

Foreclosures: 'Worst three months of all time'
Despite signs of broader economic recovery, number of foreclosure filings hit a record high in the third quarter - a sign the plague is still spreading.


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Despite concerted government-led and lender-supported efforts to prevent foreclosures, the number of filings hit a record high in the third quarter, according to a report issued Thursday.



source (source)

atta boy Osama keep pouring it on :yahoo:

[kcvet]

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2009/10/34.jpg

:lol:

[Chiefster]

I love this thread! :D

[SIC J]

WOW, I mean I did not realize that one of the main qualifications for being President is the ability to send an e-mail. Geez, I guess George Washington sucked because of that one.

I could care less about how much about technology the PResident knows. Apparently Obama doesn't know the difference between NTSC and PAL, since he sent a bunch of DVDs to the Royalty in England that would not play on their equipment. So apparently even this guy has his technology challenges, I mean really, who doesn't know that Europe is on the PAL system?

Oh, and as for being old, I think that is a sign of wisdom and intelligence, something the younger people in this country have in very short supply. It's alright, it is a sign of immaturity, you can still vote for your ideals of saving the seals, kissing the tress, you can still be brainwashed into all of that nonsense because you are too young to have had any experiences to form an opinion on. But eventually, you will learn that it is all BS.

Man, I remember when I was in grade school and was learning about how the next ice age was going to kill us all, that we had to ban Chloroflourocarbons and Ozone because it was cooling the atmosphere and we were all going to be buried in ice.

The next thing they started on was global warming, except for the short trip through the Year 2K bug that was going to end the earth. But not long after Y2K, now we have "climate change" since the earth is no longer warming and is cooling again, well that is even MORE sign that people are idiots.

And every new scientific fact is taught in school to the young heads full of mush who formulate their opinions on who they are going to vote for based on what they were taught in school. Nevermind what they were taught was faulty, it has to be right because my teacher told me it was.

I want an older person in office, even Bush was too young to be President. I want someone who has been around for awhile and has learned a thing or two because all the younger guys that get elected screw it all up.

:wheelchair:

Technology has and what this country and our future is about.

You say older = wiser and more intelligent, BUT yet he can't figure out how to send an email. Maybe he can send the lil birdy out with his message. :lol:

Thats whats wrong with this country. So many OLD people running it who think just because they're older they are wiser and more intelligent. Which is COMPLETELY false. Age means NOTHING these days. I meet hundreds of thousands of people a year in my profession and normally the least intelligent are the "older" people. Nor saying I don't meet some dumba$$ younger people. :lol:

Most older people still feel their ways 30-40 years ago are better and that all this new age stuff is useless. This world has advanced dramatically in the last 20 years, and if you don't keep up with it, you're gonna be left behind.


As I said, I'm not a fan of Obama or McCain but I felt Obama was the better choice. It was either Obama, who is at least up to date with whats going on in todays world or McCain who is still living out the 60s and is another Bush.


Oh and your arguement about we should believe stuff cuz our teachers said so. Well who do you think taught those teachers to teach us that stuff. Your so-called older, wiser, and more intelligent people. :lol:

Yet I was the young and stupid 2nd grader asking the teacher questions like, well how did Columbus "discover" America if there were already people here. Yup, us "young" people know nothing. haha

[kcvet]

Technology has and what this country and our future is about.

You say older = wiser and more intelligent, BUT yet he can't figure out how to send an email. Maybe he can send the lil birdy out with his message. :lol:

Thats whats wrong with this country. So many OLD people running it who think just because they're older they are wiser and more intelligent. Which is COMPLETELY false. Age means NOTHING these days. I meet hundreds of thousands of people a year in my profession and normally the least intelligent are the "older" people. Nor saying I don't meet some dumba$$ younger people. :lol:

Most older people still feel their ways 30-40 years ago are better and that all this new age stuff is useless. This world has advanced dramatically in the last 20 years, and if you don't keep up with it, you're gonna be left behind.


As I said, I'm not a fan of Obama or McCain but I felt Obama was the better choice. It was either Obama, who is at least up to date with whats going on in todays world or McCain who is still living out the 60s and is another Bush.


Oh and your arguement about we should believe stuff cuz our teachers said so. Well who do you think taught those teachers to teach us that stuff. Your so-called older, wiser, and more intelligent people. :lol:

Yet I was the young and stupid 2nd grader asking the teacher questions like, well how did Columbus "discover" America if there were already people here. Yup, us "young" people know nothing. haha


Obama, who is at least up to date with whats going on in todays world

indeed he is. in all 57 states

[Bike]

indeed he is. in all 57 states
Nice! Hopefully he'll find his birth certificate in one of those 57 states!!

[Guru]

I am sick of this argument that it is all the consumers fault for all the bailouts. It's governments fault for creating all the "opportunities for these people to take advantage of a situation our kids, OUR KIDS, will have to pay for now. Am I upset with these idiot consumers? Hell yes I am. I am more pissed at our government leaders for forcing these financial institutions to take on loans they knew would get defaulted on.

I don't have all the numbers but the cash for clunkers was one of the biggest failures in that it cost more to implement than it saved for the long haul. Something to the tune of 44 million dollars. Yeah, I know, just a drop in the bucket right? We have millions of drops in the bucket though. How does that add up?

Was McCain worth a crap. No. Definitely not. But don't sit here and preach what a success Obama is. He hasn't done anything positive yet. Hell, he hasn't done anything except talk.

[tornadospotter]

Yep I love a this stinky paperwork that comes from, to hell with it! Why bother posting here? I would just get suck in and post something about some view that I should not do and then Chiefster will scold me, for using redneck speack, and then the rednecks will stir a storm, then the the will be a big battle aboot a catfish that we all katched but mine is bigger, then we drag out the billfolds to prove it, then we we will have themthear naysayers, and them yes sure we will folks just stir uper things, then we willls bee in ibleatella to type because of p0uter peys being in the correct position, but fingers noty. So I hate this thread, and bama HAS

[Chiefster]

I am sick of this argument that it is all the consumers fault for all the bailouts. It's governments fault for creating all the "opportunities for these people to take advantage of a situation our kids, OUR KIDS, will have to pay for now. Am I upset with these idiot consumers? Hell yes I am. I am more pissed at our government leaders for forcing these financial institutions to take on loans they knew would get defaulted on.

I don't have all the numbers but the cash for clunkers was one of the biggest failures in that it cost more to implement than it saved for the long haul. Something to the tune of 44 million dollars. Yeah, I know, just a drop in the bucket right? We have millions of drops in the bucket though. How does that add up?

Was McCain worth a crap. No. Definitely not. But don't sit here and preach what a success Obama is. He hasn't done anything positive yet. Hell, he hasn't done anything except talk.

Exactly! Typed the words right off my keyboard.

[chief31]

I have not been to a doctor but once in the past 30 years.

I have had my shoulder crushed, my foot and ankle shattered, and probably broken my back, amongst various smaller injuries, and illnesses.

The one time I did go, was to a hospital that was located across the street from where I was fishing after midnight.

A hook got stuck into my finger when a larger fish jerked during hook retrieval. It went in one side, and out the other, with the barb keeping me from backing it out, and the eye keeping me from pushing it on through.

My plyers weren't in my tackle box, and nothing nearby was open, except for the hospital.

Now, at the hospital, they make me fill out a bunch of forms, then allow me to borrow some plyers, so I can chop the hook and pull it on through myself.

$400.00.

That's exactly why I, and millions of other Americans, don't seek medical care, and will die of something that was treatable, alone in our homes.

$400 to borrow a hand tool.

The current healthcare system is a disgrace.

Every American deserves a chance to buy a car, a home and to get treated for medical issues.

Even the people that I think are the absolute scum of the entire planet deserve these things.

Socialize medicine? F*** YES!!!!

Does that scare you? How about this one?... Socialized libraries!!! Oooooo.

Socialized education!!! HEAVEN HELP US!!!!!

I know what is really really scary. And I mean this is absolutley terrifying...

Socialized police!!!!! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!! NOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Man, it could get even worse, still..

Socialized military. I don't think that there is anything scarier than that.

Death panels? Really? That is the big bash on the whole thing?

We already have death panels. But the current death panels choose who lives or dies, based, in part, on net-worth.

The ever so scary 'government death panel' would determine who gets free healthcare (<< Key term there.) based on logical conditions, like amount of life likely to be gained from $XXX of treatment.

Now, let us look at the 'key term' I pointed out...

Is it really even a 'government death panel'? I mean, if the decision being made by the panel is just rather or not to give the subject free healthcare, then is that an instant death sentence?

NO!!!!!

We have socialized Libraries. But can't you buy other books and information, if you have the money?

We have socialized education. But can't you also get higher education, or even private education, if you have the money?

Police? Can't you hire non-socialized security?

Military? Haliburton, anyone?

'Socialized medicine' in not 'completely socialized medicine'. As with anything that is socialized, there are other options.

The one major factor to it is that every American, regardless of their level of stupidity, spite, or greed, is entitled to healthcare. As they damn well should be.

[Bike]

Why should my tax dollars pay health insurance for some fat slob stuffing tacos and cigarettes down his throat all day long? Health insurance is not a right. Should the government provide your homeowners insurance also? How 'bout life insurance? Auto insurance? Heres a thought. Lets just do away with currency and credit. Just walk into your favorite store, grab what you need, and take it home - free!
I'm not sayin' the health insurance industry isn't screwed up - it is and needs overhauled. But a gov't takeover? Buy the insurance your lifestyle deems necessary. Its called personal responsibility. Its truely unfortunate so many people need the gov't to take care of them...

[Canada]

Healthcare is free in Canada!! :p

[Canada]

Why should my tax dollars pay health insurance for some fat slob stuffing tacos and cigarettes down his throat all day long? Health insurance is not a right. Should the government provide your homeowners insurance also? How 'bout life insurance? Auto insurance? Heres a thought. Lets just do away with currency and credit. Just walk into your favorite store, grab what you need, and take it home - free!
I'm not sayin' the health insurance industry isn't screwed up - it is and needs overhauled. But a gov't takeover? Buy the insurance your lifestyle deems necessary. Its called personal responsibility. Its truely unfortunate so many people need the gov't to take care of them...
What about a kid whose parents work for min wage and cant afford insurance. That kid dosent deserve help?

[Snoopy09]

Fo Shizzle Dizzle Yo!

[kcvet]

Healthcare is free in Canada!! :p

used it ???? its a disaster. why are Canadians coming down here ???

YouTube - ObamaCare Yay Or Nay? The Truth About Canada!

its even worse in the UK

[kcvet]

almost forgot. we do have free heathcare here in the states. in Oregon and either Vermont or Mass.

YouTube - Oregon Health Plan Denies Chemo Medicine- Assisted Suicide Offered Instead

its all about $$$$ its cheaper to kill you than save you. this is what we are facing if its passed.

[Canada]

used it ???? its a disaster. why are Canadians coming down here ???

YouTube - ObamaCare Yay Or Nay? The Truth About Canada! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw)

its even worse in the UK

Yes I have used it, as well as work in it. I am a paramedic so I see the hospitals here first hand. Sure there are some problems. But when u really need something, it is there for you. The problem with the healthcare system here is misuse by people. Going to an emergency room for the flu. Fact is, I can walk into the Doc office across the street from my house and get whatever I need anytime I need it. But I guess I wont try and argue with a Youtube video.

[kcvet]

Yes I have used it, as well as work in it. I am a paramedic so I see the hospitals here first hand. Sure there are some problems. But when u really need something, it is there for you. The problem with the healthcare system here is misuse by people. Going to an emergency room for the flu. Fact is, I can walk into the Doc office across the street from my house and get whatever I need anytime I need it. But I guess I wont try and argue with a Youtube video.

maybe its there for your cause your a paramedic. some problems??? waiting for days or weeks to get help??? and just how is it misused by the people - isn't for them ??? their coming down here in droves to get faster and better treatment.


The problem with the healthcare system here is misuse by people. Going to an emergency room for the flu

Jesus H Christ WTF is an ER for??? ever hear of H1N1???

[Canada]

maybe its there for your cause your a paramedic. some problems??? waiting for days or weeks to get help??? and just how is it misused by the people - isn't for them ??? their coming down here in droves to get faster and better treatment.

Do you know why they wait days and weeks. BECAUSE IT IS NOT AN EMERGENCY. There are plenty of walk in clinics and Drs offices that people can use but dont...this results in overcrowding of EMERGENCY ROOMS for things that are not emergencys. Fact is when u walk into a hospital, you get triaged. Most serious problems first, not first come first serve. All those people waiting days DO NOT need to be in an ER. And the proof of that is the fact that they have survived for days and weeks. If it were a true emergency, they would not have survived.



Jesus H Christ WTF is an ER for??? ever hear of H1N1???

Yes I have...its the flu. Go to a walk in clininc. The flu is NOT and EMERGENCY!!

An ER is for someone who can't breath, someone having a heart attack, servered limbs. Life threatening EMERGENCIES. Not the flu.

[stricken721]

Yes I have...its the flu. Go to a walk in clininc. The flu is NOT and EMERGENCY!!

An ER is for someone who can't breath, someone having a heart attack, servered limbs. Life threatening EMERGENCIES. Not the flu.

:bananen_smilies046:

[kcvet]

Yes I have...its the flu. Go to a walk in clininc. The flu is NOT and EMERGENCY!!

An ER is for someone who can't breath, someone having a heart attack, servered limbs. Life threatening EMERGENCIES. Not the flu.

the flu IS an EMERGENCY!! millions have died from it worldwide. the ER's down here are swamped with flu. how many strains are there??? what about cancer??? emergency birth problems etc etc not a threat huh right !!!

how many people die from flu each year? About 36,000 Americans die on average per year from the complications of flu. each year it kills 250,000 - 500,000 around the world. so this NOT an emergency to you????

[Canada]

the flu IS an EMERGENCY!! millions have died from it worldwide. the ER's down here are swamped with flu. how many strains are there??? what about cancer??? emergency birth problems etc etc not a threat huh right !!!

how many people die from flu each year? About 36,000 Americans die on average per year from the complications of flu. each year it kills 250,000 - 500,000 around the world. so this NOT an emergency to you????

so let me get this straight....if u had the flu, you would call 911?

The flu would not be an "emergency" if they could walk into a clininc and get taken care of. I see you posting how many AMERICANS die from it....how much of that is becasue they could not afford proper health care?

And no...the flu is still not an emergency. If u wake up at midnight with a fever and runny nose...you can go to a doctor in the morning. If u wake up with chest pain from and heart attack...you can't. that is the difference between and EMERGENCY and just needing to go see a doctor.

I dont know where u r going with the cancer and emergency birth thing

[kcvet]

so let me get this straight....if u had the flu, you would call 911?

The flu would not be an "emergency" if they could walk into a clininc and get taken care of. I see you posting how many AMERICANS die from it....how much of that is becasue they could not afford proper health care?

And no...the flu is still not an emergency. If u wake up at midnight with a fever and runny nose...you can go to a doctor in the morning. If u wake up with chest pain from and heart attack...you can't. that is the difference between and EMERGENCY and just needing to go see a doctor.

I dont know where u r going with the cancer and emergency birth thing

the flu can KILL YOU in just hours. if you go to a clinic with it why do they send your to the ER ???? because clinics are referrals only !!!! they DO NOT treat the flu. As of 3 July, a total of 8,883 laboratory-confirmed cases of the A/H1N1, have been reported in Canada from all provinces and territories, according to the Public Health Agency of Canada. so you consider the flu no worse than the common cold right????

Swine Flu IS Considered an "Emergency"

link (link)

[Canada]

the flu can KILL YOU in just hours. if you go to a clinic with it why do they send your to the ER ???? because clinics are referrals only !!!! they DO NOT treat the flu. As of 3 July, a total of 8,883 laboratory-confirmed cases of the A/H1N1, have been reported in Canada from all provinces and territories, according to the Public Health Agency of Canada. so you consider the flu no worse than the common cold right????

No they arent. Clinics are there to treat you. I know, i live here and use them regularly.

8, 883 people have the flu...are they all dead now? Just because they have the flu does not mean it is an emergency. I bet you all 8,883 of those peolple will still be alive tomorrow, and the ones who need to be in a hospital, will be in a hospital. Im not saying the flu does not kill, im not saying it isnt an illness, im saying it is not an EMERGENCY. You do not need to go to an ER for the flu. Your little youtube video showed the ER of one hospital and nothing about long term care. They faked a wrist injury and did not see a doctor right away. What a shocker.

[Canada]

Swine Flu IS Considered an "Emergency"

link (http://link)

did u read that article or just the title?

"current events constitute a public health emergency of international concern."

It does not say go running to your local ER. It is an emergency for public health, not an individual who gets the flu. It is that type of mass hysteria that causes the overcrowding problems in the first place. Did u go to the ER for the flu 30 years ago? The information age is dangerous sometimes. Too much info not enough common sense.

[kcvet]

did u read that article or just the title?

"current events constitute a public health emergency of international concern."

It does not say go running to your local ER. It is an emergency for public health, not an individual who gets the flu. It is that type of mass hysteria that causes the overcrowding problems in the first place. Did u go to the ER for the flu 30 years ago? The information age is dangerous sometimes. Too much info not enough common sense.

sorry pal. i can't buy you being a paramedic at all. your saying the swine and H1N1 are no worse than the common cold. Clinics ARE referral. my doc told me if i have flu sysmptom DO NOT COME TO THE CLINIC GO TO THE ER !!!!!

[Canada]

sorry pal. i can't buy you being a paramedic at all. your saying the swine and H1N1 are no worse than the common cold. Clinics ARE referral. my doc told me if i have flu sysmptom DO NOT COME TO THE CLINIC GO TO THE ER !!!!!

1. I guess Im not a paramedic if u dont buy it. I can go home now. Thanks

2. I never said that H1N1 are no worse than a cold...u said that.

3. is your doctor in Canada or are you telling me how things work in the US?

I guess if you don't know about these things we no longer need to continue this conversation. Nice talkin to you again KCChris. :bananen_smilies046:

[kcvet]

1. I guess Im not a paramedic if u dont buy it. I can go home now. Thanks

2. I never said that H1N1 are no worse than a cold...u said that.

3. is your doctor in Canada or are you telling me how things work in the US?

I guess if you don't know about these things we no longer need to continue this conversation. Nice talkin to you again KCChris. :bananen_smilies046:

im talking about the the US. we have the capacity. you don't. you said the flu is a non emergency, not me. maybe when you start pickin up the dead from their homes you'll understand. have a nice evening

[Canada]

im talking about the the US. we have the capacity. you don't. you said the flu is a non emergency, not me. maybe when you start pickin up the dead from their homes you'll understand. have a nice evening

Seems odd since this was a discussion about the Canadian healthcare system.

As far as the "capacity"...you have it because you only treat the ones who have the $$$. Great system.

As far as dying in their homes...go to a f**kin' doctors office. Why is that so hard for you to grasp. See a family doctor as opposed to an ER physician.


BTW...remember last year...it was the bird flu. There is a new strain of flu every year. Yet this year you think we all need to pack the ERs full of people with the flu. Great idea as long as you have the $$$

[rbedgood]

Nice! Hopefully he'll find his birth certificate in one of those 57 states!!

He will...he's working on making Kenya and Indonesia states to cover all the theories...

[tornadospotter]

I have been involved with planning for the pandemic bird flu that is coming, this was when I was still the Director of Emergency Management Agency for my county in Nebraska, the h1n1 flu is not that big of issue, it came around in the late 70's, This is basically the same strain as that one was. I have had two of my daughters get sick with it. They are both fine now. It is the flu. If your going to die from it, you would probably die from any strain of flu. The only thing the ER can do for flu, is charge you a lot of money, to do the same thing you can do at home. Wiski Girl got the h1n1, swine flu, the doctor perscribed tamiflu for her family at a cost of $260. She should have just bought a bottle of black berry brandy. If you have the flu, stay home. Sure if you are deathly sick, go to the ER, be put in to the hospital and plug in some IV's to move fluids threw you to flush the bug out.

[kcvet]

Seems odd since this was a discussion about the Canadian healthcare system.

As far as the "capacity"...you have it because you only treat the ones who have the $$$. Great system.

As far as dying in their homes...go to a f**kin' doctors office. Why is that so hard for you to grasp. See a family doctor as opposed to an ER physician.


BTW...remember last year...it was the bird flu. There is a new strain of flu every year. Yet this year you think we all need to pack the ERs full of people with the flu. Great idea as long as you have the $$$

$$$ have nothing to do with it. Hospitals here admit those without insurance.

lets just agree to disagree. ill never ever see your way. you can keep your socialism.

[jtandcrew]

I figured I would throw my 2 cents into this conversation just to give a little diffrent spin. First, I might as well point out that I have been laid-off since the beginning of Apr due to cutbacks in the industry that I work in. My wife took over carrying the health ins when that happened. She (works in same industry) got laid off back at the beginning of Aug. Saying that and before anyone starts saying "There are jobs out there how come your not working?" Yes, there are jobs out there for us but not paying to what we are making on unemployment. Our income has dropped by about 30% due to the layoffs. Now without being with health insur atm? I would have to say the main thing I see wrong with health care atm is that its so damned expensive. When I was working we would change insur every year for the past 6-7 yrs since insur comps refused to sign 3 yr deals anymore as they did once before. They used 9-11 to raise the rates every year. Yes, I understand that there are some ppl that abuse the system and go to their dr or ER everytime they would get a sniffle. I dont understand entirely about what they are wanting to do with healthcare but if I cant afford the COBRA plan after we got laid off then how am I going to afford indep insur at risk of fines and tickets if these laws go into effect? How come the gov dont require the insur comps to put a cap on what they can charge I feel they need to do something about the insur comps rather than require the ppl to buy insur if they are not working. Requireing ppl to buy the insur on their own (working or not) even if the job doesnt offer insur will make a bad situation worse. BTW? Also from what I understand the so called socialized or nationalized healthcare in other countries? Its free at the cost of higher sales and income tax. What Obama is doing here? Not socialized or nationalized healthcare its turning into imo dictated healthcare. They are going to requier to buy it whether you can afford it or not or take the lowest form possible if you cant. In that case, it does come down to how much money you make. No dirrence when our job offered you a diffrence between the cost of the PPO or the HMO.

jmo

[kcvet]

I figured I would throw my 2 cents into this conversation just to give a little diffrent spin. First, I might as well point out that I have been laid-off since the beginning of Apr due to cutbacks in the industry that I work in. My wife took over carrying the health ins when that happened. She (works in same industry) got laid off back at the beginning of Aug. Saying that and before anyone starts saying "There are jobs out there how come your not working?" Yes, there are jobs out there for us but not paying to what we are making on unemployment. Our income has dropped by about 30% due to the layoffs. Now without being with health insur atm? I would have to say the main thing I see wrong with health care atm is that its so damned expensive. When I was working we would change insur every year for the past 6-7 yrs since insur comps refused to sign 3 yr deals anymore as they did once before. They used 9-11 to raise the rates every year. Yes, I understand that there are some ppl that abuse the system and go to their dr or ER everytime they would get a sniffle. I dont understand entirely about what they are wanting to do with healthcare but if I cant afford the COBRA plan after we got laid off then how am I going to afford indep insur at risk of fines and tickets if these laws go into effect? How come the gov dont require the insur comps to put a cap on what they can charge I feel they need to do something about the insur comps rather than require the ppl to buy insur if they are not working. Requireing ppl to buy the insur on their own (working or not) even if the job doesnt offer insur will make a bad situation worse. BTW? Also from what I understand the so called socialized or nationalized healthcare in other countries? Its free at the cost of higher sales and income tax. What Obama is doing here? Not socialized or nationalized healthcare its turning into imo dictated healthcare. They are going to requier to buy it whether you can afford it or not or take the lowest form possible if you cant. In that case, it does come down to how much money you make. No dirrence when our job offered you a diffrence between the cost of the PPO or the HMO.

jmo

I also heard if passed your issued a gov card. if you don't have one come tax time you'll be fined up to $2200.
I was also laid off in 2001. but I had enough time in to take early retirement. and my wife still works. so far. I have good ins and I don't want to be put on this system. many do have their own ins. why don't they make it voluntary for the uninsured and leave the rest of us alone????

[jtandcrew]

I also heard if passed your issued a gov card. if you don't have one come tax time you'll be fined up to $2200.
I was also laid off in 2001. but I had enough time in to take early retirement. and my wife still works. so far. I have good ins and I don't want to be put on this system. many do have their own ins. why don't they make it voluntary for the uninsured and leave the rest of us alone????


That is what I was talking about getting fined and I have also heard that you would be ticketed after that fine also. It does not make sense to require me to buy insur I cant afford or get fined if I cant afford it regardless if I wanted to be on it or not. They wont make in voluntary due to the fact that a lrg amount of ppl in the US dont have insur. That is exactly what they are saying is wrong with the health care system. Yes, many do have some sort of insur but there are plenty that have below avg health care. As far as leaving the rest of you alone that really sounds very selfish simply due to the fact that you have good insur. From what I understand, the people that have insur will be unaffected by these new laws. You will still be able to keep your insur.

[kcvet]

That is what I was talking about getting fined and I have also heard that you would be ticketed after that fine also. It does not make sense to require me to buy insur I cant afford or get fined if I cant afford it regardless if I wanted to be on it or not. They wont make in voluntary due to the fact that a lrg amount of ppl in the US dont have insur. That is exactly what they are saying is wrong with the health care system. Yes, many do have some sort of insur but there are plenty that have below avg health care. As far as leaving the rest of you alone that really sounds very selfish simply due to the fact that you have good insur. From what I understand, the people that have insur will be unaffected by these new laws. You will still be able to keep your insur.

selfish??? my tax $$$ have to pay for this to. we all pay for it. just like the failed stim pack. which our childrens children will be paying for.


the people that have insur will be unaffected by these new laws. You will still be able to keep your insur.

after all his broken promise's you believe this ????

[jtandcrew]

Yes, our tax $ pay for it. Yes, I still have to pay taxes while on unemployment. How much of our tax $'s are going to pay for the illegal immigrants that cross the border everyday? Why do you think the gov is trying to give them all amnesty to get them legal if not atleast work status in the US? That way they can track them for their tax $. Which imo should have to pay also. Do I trust his words with all the broken promises? Hell, no! I dont really trust any politician (rep or dem) due to the fact that they will saying anything the majority of the people want to hear. Bottom line, my point is that health care costs to much. The gov needs to require that the health insur comps do rates the same as auto insur comps do. The more you use it the more you pay. I had not used my health insur in the last 10 yrs. Nor have NEVER used my car insur. Though my health insur went up every yr and my car insur goes down. The gov wants to require everyone to carry health insur the same as they do auto insur. Require them to charge the same way. Im not so worried about my tax $ going to help ppl afford health insur as I am insur comp charging more for health care to cover costs of those who abuse it. Also, for that matter, When someone goes to the hospital for care and dont have insur? What does the hospital do? They jack up the prices to take the tax write off or they turn it into their own insur. Even if you have good insur im sure your rates are going higher each yr. If not your 1 of the lucky few. Also you also have your VA benefits to fall back on (which you have rightly earned) although I know that those benefits are not as good as private health insur. My father-in-law spent his entire career in the Navy and spent 20+ yrs helping to fight the gov for the tri care for life benefits for veterans and spouses. Either way there has to be something done to soaring costs for health care and everyone has their own plan to fix it.

[hardcorechiefsfan]

I tried to tell but you seemed intent on voting for Obama. Now you are all ticked about how much he wants to spend and needing taxes to pay for that spending. You can't say I didn't try to tell you...

[Vanilla Garilla]

What about a kid whose parents work for min wage and cant afford insurance. That kid dosent deserve help?

EEEEEEXACTLY!

[Hayvern]

EEEEEEXACTLY!

Actually we have lots of programs for people in that position already. Anyone making minimum wage in this country who also have children are below the poverty level and there is Medicare, Welfare and any number of other social programs who will help them.

Also, most hospitals in this country are non-profit and if you are sick and below the poverty level, they will still treat you.

I have no problem with these programs, and what most of you don't know is that this issue IS NOT going to be repaired with any bill currently being offered.

In fact, if you really read the bill, all it says is that everyone MUST have insurance, if it is not provided, then you can buy it from an exchange, but everyone has to have it. So that person making minimum wage, now has even LESS money to spend as the Government will be taking the insurance premiums away from them in the form of higher deductions on what money they do make.

In Canada, everyone get's healthcare for free, here in the states, the bill being presented is nothing like that.

[Vanilla Garilla]

Actually we have lots of programs for people in that position already. Anyone making minimum wage in this country who also have children are below the poverty level and there is Medicare, Welfare and any number of other social programs who will help them.

These programs are great, but many people are right above the line for these programs, that still cant afford insurance premiums.

Also, most hospitals in this country are non-profit and if you are sick and below the poverty level, they will still treat you.

Yeah and they will even send you a nice little gift wrapped bill that is more than the said family in poverty level could possibly pay off.

I have no problem with these programs, and what most of you don't know is that this issue IS NOT going to be repaired with any bill currently being offered.

In fact, if you really read the bill, all it says is that everyone MUST have insurance, if it is not provided, then you can buy it from an exchange, but everyone has to have it. So that person making minimum wage, now has even LESS money to spend as the Government will be taking the insurance premiums away from them in the form of higher deductions on what money they do make.

Actually, The new bill would allow the uninsured too:

Creates a new insurance marketplace – the Exchange – that allows
people without insurance and small businesses to compare plans and buy
insurance at competitive prices.
• Provides new tax credits to help people buy insurance and to help small
businesses cover their employees.
• Offers a public health insurance option to provide the uninsured who
can’t find affordable coverage with a real choice.
• Offers new, low-cost coverage through a national “high risk” pool to
protect people with preexisting conditions from financial ruin until the
new Exchange is created.

In Canada, everyone get's healthcare for free, here in the states, the bill being presented is nothing like that.

And to finish, nothing is free! They pay higher taxes all around for their health care system. However, a system like theirs is something that I would like for our country.


See red, lol.

[Vanilla Garilla]

Kevin Andersen
Persuasive Speech
September 6, 2009

Health Care in the United States needs a complete overhaul, to say the least. How many of us have gone to get a prescription filled and found out that the medication we need is way above our budget? How many of us have had to go to the doctors without insurance, and in return we receive a bill that will take us a year or better to pay off? Unfortunately too many of us have, and with the growing list of people Unemployed, the numbers are rising. In a report done by the U.S Census Bureau, in 2007 45.7 million Americans were uninsured, at a rate of 15.3 percent of the population (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_edn1). Basically those statistics show that one in every six people has no health coverage, and that is a scary thought.

The number of uninsured, outrageous prescription drug prices and health care prices are a huge problem in our country, and it needs to be solved. The government is currently hard at work trying to pass legislation on a new health care reform bill, although I personally feel that they are not doing enough, and there are some easier solutions that could be installed. To be able to find a reasonable solution, we must fully understand the problems that we face.

The first and largest glaring problem we face with our nation’s health care problem is the uninsured. So you might ask yourself, why are so many people uninsured? Well the main reason people do not have health care coverage is simply because they cannot afford it. According to the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundations’ Employee Health Benefits 2008 Annual Insurance Survey, insurancepremiums have increased 119 percent for employers since 1999 and employee spending for health insurance coverage ( which is the employee’s share of family coverage) has increased 117 percent between 1999 and 2008[ii] (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_edn2). With the average annual worker premiums being $694 for single coverage, and $3,281 for Family, this is a large amount of money for any family to pay, especially those in the middle class or lower status.

This problem goes hand in hand also with the unemployment rate, which according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, was at 9.7% in the month of August[iii] (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_edn3) With so many people out of work, it is almost impossible for these unemployed workers to afford any kind of coverage. It even affects people that are on temporary layoff, such as me. I was laid off for three months this spring, and was notified that the employees, who are on layoff, must pay both the companies insurance costs, and the employees, which bumped my family coverage premium up to $990 a month, which was unaffordable. These kinds of actions are necessary by the companies we work for because without a workload, they cannot simply afford to stay in business if they are paying all of their laid off employees’ health premiums and this is a huge problem. The government has a program called COBRA, which is designed to help temporarily laid off or terminated employees keep their health coverage, but as Michelle Singletary of the Washington Post stated, “Family coverage can cost on average about $1,000 a month, according to Families USA, a national nonprofit. The average monthly COBRA premium for individual coverage is $388.”[iv] (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_edn4)

Many in Washington, and across the country have wondered, “What can we do about this problem?” While there are many possible solutions, I personally feel that the best and most complete way to solve this problem is to nationalize health care, and make it available to every legal resident of the United States. Many of you will probably ask, “How will we pay for it?” The answer is obvious to me; the government could put a higher tax on the products that contribute to rising health costs and health problems, items such as: tobacco, alcohol, junk food, and even Fast Food. All of these items listed cause a great deal of illness including: Cancer, Heart Disease, Lung Disease, Diabetes, Obesity, and General Health issues. So by taxing these items higher, it would in return lower the consumption amount, and therefore lower the risk of the health problems I listed above, which would not only pay for the health coverage, but would drive down health care prices in general. There are a lot of other options available to pay for a national health care system as well, such as: Ending the war in Iraq, Decriminalizing, legalizing, and taxing marijuana, which would free up a crowded and expensive prison system, create jobs, and provide a great deal of income from taxes.

With all of these viable options to pay for universal health care, it is very surprising to me that there is not a system set in place. According to a report by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academies, The United States is the only Industrial Nation that does not have universal health care[v] (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_edn5).
A country as great, promising, optimistic, and successful as ours should definitely have Universal Health Care. There is really no excuse for a system not to be set up and running by now, hopefully with this new administration one will be started, if not then our health care problems will continue to rise, and will continue to burden the great people of our country.

[i] (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_ednref1) DeNavas-Walt, C.B. Proctor, and J. Smith. Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. U.S. Census Bureau., August 2008.

[ii] (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_ednref2) The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. Employee Health Benefits: 2008 Annual Survey. September 2008. 2007 Kaiser/HRET Employer Health Benefits Survey - Kaiser Family Foundation (http://www.kff.org/insurance/7672/index.cfm)


[iii] (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_ednref3) Employment Situation Summary, BLS September 6, 2009. Employment Situation Summary (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm)


[iv] (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_ednref4) The Color Of Money, Michelle Singletary, Helping Laid Off Workers Pay For Health Insurance, Thursday March 5th, 2009. The Washington Post. Michelle Singletary - Helping Laid-Off Workers Pay for Health Insurance - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/04/AR2009030403894.html)


[v] (http://chiefscrowd.com/forums/#_ednref5) ^ [I]a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care#cite_ref-IOM_0-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care#cite_ref-IOM_0-1) Insuring America's Health: Principles and Recommendations (http://www.iom.edu/?id=17848), Institute of Medicine at the National Academies of Science, 2004-01-14

[Chiefster]

Just thought I'd give the other side VG. :D

Good Intentions Aren't Enough with Health Care Reform (http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=155230603434&1&index=1)
Share (http://www.facebook.com/ajax/share_dialog.php?s=4&appid=2347471856&p[]=24718773587&p[]=155230603434)

Saturday, October 17, 2009 at 10:57pm

Now that the Senate Finance Committee has approved its health care bill, it’s a good time to step back and take a look at the long term consequences should its provisions be enacted into law.

The bill prohibits insurance companies from refusing coverage to people with pre-existing conditions and from charging sick people higher premiums. [1] It attempts to offset the costs this will impose on insurance companies by requiring everyone to purchase coverage, which in theory would expand the pool of paying policy holders.

However, the maximum fine for those who refuse to purchase health insurance is $750. [2] Even factoring in government subsidies, the cost of purchasing a plan is much more than $750. The result: many people, especially the young and healthy, will simply not buy coverage, choosing to pay the fine instead. They’ll wait until they’re sick to buy health insurance, confident in the knowledge that insurance companies can’t deny them coverage. Such a scenario is a perfect storm for increasing the cost of health care and creating an unsustainable mandate program.

Those driving this plan no doubt have good intentions, but good intentions aren’t enough. There were good intentions behind the drive to increase home ownership for lower-income Americans, but forcing financial institutions to give loans to people who couldn’t afford them had terrible unintended consequences. We all felt those consequences during the financial collapse last year. Unintended consequences always result from top-down big government plans like the current health care proposals, and we can’t afford to ignore that fact again.

Supposedly the Senate Finance bill will be paid for by cutting Medicare by nearly half a trillion dollars and by taxing the so-called “Cadillac” health care plans enjoyed by many union members. The plan will also impose heavy taxes on insurers, pharmaceutical companies, medical device companies, and clinical labs. [3] The result of all of these taxes is clear. As Douglas Holtz-Eakin noted in the Wall Street Journal, these new taxes “will be passed on to consumers by either directly raising insurance premiums, or by fueling higher health-care costs that inevitably lead to higher premiums.” [4] Unfortunately, it will lead to lower wages too, as employees will have to sacrifice a greater percentage of their paychecks to cover these higher premiums. [5] In other words, if the Democrats succeed in overhauling health care, we’ll all bear the costs. The Senate Finance bill is effectively a middle class tax increase, and as Holtz-Eakin points out, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation those making less than $200,000 will be hit hardest. [6]

With our country’s debt and deficits growing at an alarming rate, many of us can’t help but wonder how we can afford a new trillion dollar entitlement program. The president has promised that he won’t sign a health care bill if it “adds even one dime to our deficit over the next decade.” [7] But his administration also promised that his nearly trillion dollar stimulus plan would keep the unemployment rate below 8%. [8] Last month, our unemployment rate was 9.8%, the highest it’s been in 26 years. [9] At first the current administration promised that the stimulus would save or create 3 to 4 million jobs. [10] Then they declared that it created 1 million jobs, but the stimulus reports released this week showed that a mere 30,083 jobs have been created, while nearly 3.4 million jobs have been lost since the stimulus was passed. [11] Should we believe the administration’s claims about health care when their promises have proven so unreliable about the stimulus?

In January 2008, presidential candidate Obama promised not to negotiate behind closed doors with health care lobbyists. In fact, he committed to “broadcasting those negotiations on C-SPAN so that the American people can see what the choices are. Because part of what we have to do is enlist the American people in this process. And overcoming the special interests and the lobbyists...” [12] However, last February, after serving only a few weeks in office, President Obama met privately at the White House with health care industry executives and lobbyists. [13] Yesterday, POLITICO reported that aides to President Obama and Democrat Senator Max Baucus met with corporate lobbyists in April to help “set in motion a multimillion-dollar advertising campaign, primarily financed by industry groups, that has played a key role in bolstering public support for health care reform.” [14] Needless to say, their negotiations were not broadcast on C-SPAN for the American people to see.

Presidential candidate Obama also promised that he would not “sign any nonemergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House Web site for five days.” [15] PolitiFact reports that this promise has already been broken three times by the current administration. [16] We can only hope that it won’t be broken again with health care reform.

All of this certainly gives the appearance of politics-as-usual in Washington with no change in sight.

Americans want health care reform because we want affordable health care. We don’t need subsidies or a public option. We don’t need a nationalized health care industry. We need to reduce health care costs. But the Senate Finance plan will dramatically increase those costs, all the while ignoring common sense cost-saving measures like tort reform. Though a Congressional Budget Office report confirmed that reforming medical malpractice and liability laws could save as much as $54 billion over the next ten years, tort reform is nowhere to be found in the Senate Finance bill. [17]

Here’s a novel idea. Instead of working contrary to the free market, let’s embrace the free market. Instead of going to war with certain private sector companies, let’s embrace real private-sector competition and allow consumers to purchase plans across state lines. Instead of taxing the so-called “Cadillac” plans that people get through their employers, let’s give individuals who purchase their own health care the same tax benefits we currently give employer-provided health care recipients. Instead of crippling Medicare, let’s reform it by providing recipients with vouchers so that they can purchase their own coverage.

Now is the time to make your voices heard before it’s too late. If we don’t fight for the market-oriented, patient-centered, and result-driven reform plan that we deserve, we’ll be left with the disastrous unintended consequences of the plans currently being cooked up in Washington.

- Sarah Palin

[Hayvern]

The thing that bugs me the most about these bills is that they do not address the real problems. Everyone is all too ready to "stick" it to the rich insurance companies, but no one is talking about "sticking" it to the rich pharmacuetical companies. How many advertisements for ****** and Cialis do you see everyday? I think by now, just about everyone knows about ******, and it isn't like you can buy a bottle over the counter anyway.

Yet we are bombarded with commercials for this, how much money are they spending anyway? Do you know about the Doctor kick-backs that Pharmacuetical companies give doctors to prescribe their drugs?

Anyway, what are we doing about the bottom line cost of health care?

Health Insurance is not even insurance to begin with, think about it, I go buy an insurance policy just so I can go to the doctor? Compare health insurance to car insurance for instance. The insurance company is betting I won't get in an accident, and I am betting that I will. Health insurance is really a case of, we all know we are going to get sick, so I am going to pay X dollars per month so I can go to the doctor as I need to.

Back in the old days, when I was a kid, we had health insurance, but it did not kick in unless something bad happened. If I needed a checkup or a flu shot, I just went to the doctor and my parents paid for it directly, now, we ask the Insurance company to pay for those things.

Why is it that a flu shot costs so much, or why does a hospital charge me $35 for an aspirin, or $20 for a bandage?

Look, the President says we are going to pass universal health care to control costs, but all that is doing is going after the insurance companies and trying to run them out of business. We are doing nothing to control health care costs, at least we are not TALKING about it, why is that?

This administration knows what will happen when universal coverage is put into place, the costs to Government will increase and then they will have to start hitting the providers. They cannot hit the providers now because they clearly know that it will never pass if the public realizes that their care will be effected. But it WILL be effected, they are counting on the younger, less informed people in this country to get on the bandwagon because most of those people do not remember the government's attempts, or do not know what the government does when entering private industry the way they are trying to do now.

[DT14PRIEST]

How many people actually spend the whole year without health insurance? It's difficult to say, and recent data is hard to come by. But in 2003, the Congressional Budget Office took a stab at answering the question, and looked at two studies from 1998 that conducted interviews multiple times over the course of the survey period. One study pegged the number of people who were uninsured for the entire year at 31 million, while another put it even lower, at 21 million. In either case, the number was significantly lower than it was in 1998's Current Population Survey, which found 43.9 million uninsured.

Another problem with citing the 46-million figure is that many of those who are identified as uninsured are actually eligible for existing government programs but simply never bothered to enroll. In 2003, a BlueCross BlueShield Association study estimated that about 14 million of the uninsured were eligible for Medicaid and SCHIP. These people would be signed up for government insurance if they ever made it to the emergency room.

In addition, some of the 46 million could theoretically afford health coverage, but chose not to purchase any. In 2007, 17.6 million of the uninsured had annual incomes of more than $50,000 and 9.1 million earned more than $75,000. In fact, as Sally Pipes notes in the Top Ten Myths of American Health Care: A Citizen's Guide, those making more than $75,000 per year are part of the fastest growing segment of the uninsured population.

The Census figures also show that 18.3 million of the uninsured were under 34. Some in this age group may have simply determined that they are young and healthy and thus can do without coverage.

When all of these factors are put together, the 2003 BlueCross BlueShield study determined that 8.2 million Americans are actually without coverage for the long haul, because they are too poor to purchase health care but earn too much to qualify for government assistance. Even being without insurance still doesn't mean they won't have access to care, because federal law forbids hospitals from denying treatment to patients who show up at the emergency rooms.

This exercise isn't about downplaying the problems facing the American health care system, but a necessary part of devising the proper remedies. Under current state laws, mandates force insurers to provide certain benefits, meaning that young and healthy Americans must choose between paying exorbitant premiums to cover treatments that they don't need or going without health insurance. Many of these so-called "young invincibles" who are included in the ranks of the uninsured could be wooed into the market were they allowed to purchase catastrophic insurance with lower monthly premiums.

Right now, the tax code exempts people from paying taxes on health care benefits purchased through their employer, while denying the same tax advantages to individuals. Ending this discrimination would make health care more affordable to those who are self-employed or not covered through their workplace. In addition, this would allow Americans to have health care policies that are portable, so it would reduce the gaps in coverage people can face when they quit or lose a job.

Those pushing for a major government intervention in health care are distorting the 46-million statistic to boost their cause, and by disseminating it so widely without further elaboration, the media is rigging the game in their favor.

- Phillip Klein

The Government on its own has enough money stacked behind it (where the hell has all the F****** TARP Money/Stimulus bill gone?) to warrant the coverage of the 8-10 million chronically uninsured without passing through some ill conceived bill that will cripple a US economy who has by no means an ability to pay for such a massive overhaul of a system that doesn't need to be touched.

Tell me this...name one Government run program that's actually worked and thrived or at least shown decent progress in the past 10 even 20 years?

[Hayvern]

One thing that seems to evade the democrats in this country is one simple concept.

When you increase the cost to a company to produce goods, then the cost of those goods increase.

That has always been the case and it will not change now because Obama says it will. No, the only thing left is for Government to come in and regulate the industry to keep costs down, this leads to shortages in supply.

[DT14PRIEST]

One thing that seems to evade the democrats in this country is one simple concept.

When you increase the cost to a company to produce goods, then the cost of those goods increase.

That has always been the case and it will not change now because Obama says it will. No, the only thing left is for Government to come in and regulate the industry to keep costs down, this leads to shortages in supply.

Well the Government/Obama did make ~1 Trillion dollars disappear when the Stimulus bill was passed in the name of 'stemming the tide of the economic depression and create over 300 million new jobs' we all see how that went.

Saying that you're going to create an entirely new Health Care system that is bigger, better, and covers everyone and not add a single cent to the national deficit is just plain arrogant and a downright lie to the faces of the public.

[Chiefster]

Well the Government/Obama did make ~1 Trillion dollars disappear when the Stimulus bill was passed in the name of 'stemming the tide of the economic depression and create over 300 million new jobs' we all see how that went.

Saying that you're going to create an entirely new Health Care system that is bigger, better, and covers everyone and not add a single cent to the national deficit is just plain arrogant and a downright lie to the faces of the public.

Politics as usual. All politicians will say anything they feel the populous wants to hear in order to get elected.

[chief31]

Why should my tax dollars pay health insurance for some fat slob stuffing tacos and cigarettes down his throat all day long? Health insurance is not a right. Should the government provide your homeowners insurance also? How 'bout life insurance? Auto insurance? Heres a thought. Lets just do away with currency and credit. Just walk into your favorite store, grab what you need, and take it home - free!
I'm not sayin' the health insurance industry isn't screwed up - it is and needs overhauled. But a gov't takeover? Buy the insurance your lifestyle deems necessary. Its called personal responsibility. Its truely unfortunate so many people need the gov't to take care of them...

As far as I'm concerned, health insurance shouldn't be needed. Just a luxury for those that can afford the better healthcare.

I am not suggesting free health insurance. I am suggesting free healthcare.


What about a kid whose parents work for min wage and cant afford insurance. That kid dosent deserve help?

Not on Bike's dollar. But I will gladly pay the higher tax to ensure that that kid gets the healthcare he needs, and yes HAS A RIGHT TO!


almost forgot. we do have free heathcare here in the states. in Oregon and either Vermont or Mass.

YouTube - Oregon Health Plan Denies Chemo Medicine- Assisted Suicide Offered Instead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ojBgTyA7I)

its all about $$$$ its cheaper to kill you than save you. this is what we are facing if its passed.

Riiiiiiiight, because, currently, if you don't have health insurance in the other states, this kind of thing doesn't happen.


maybe its there for your cause your a paramedic. some problems??? waiting for days or weeks to get help??? and just how is it misused by the people - isn't for them ??? their coming down here in droves to get faster and better treatment.

Waiting for days or weeks? How about waiting until it's too late, because you faer the bill?

Jesus H Christ WTF is an ER for??? ever hear of H1N1???


selfish??? my tax $$$ have to pay for this to. we all pay for it. just like the failed stim pack. which our childrens children will be paying for.


the people that have insur will be unaffected by these new laws. You will still be able to keep your insur.

after all his broken promise's you believe this ????

A.) I gladly volunteer you, me, as well as my grandchildren, and even your grandchildren, to pay the tax increases involved, if we were to get a real government healthcare plan in place.

B.) Oh, you don't believe that particular part, but you believe all the negative parts that you heard?

I think that the current bill on the table is garbage. It isn't even a step in the right direction.

I think that the Dems are too right-wing to even consider a real healthcare system, like Canada has.

As much as conservatives hate the left, they should be absolutely thrilled with them for this lame excuse for healthcare reform, as it still doesn't solve the problem.

[DT14PRIEST]

Well the Government/Obama did make ~1 Trillion dollars disappear when the Stimulus bill was passed in the name of 'stemming the tide of the economic depression and create over 3 million new jobs' we all see how that went.

Saying that you're going to create an entirely new Health Care system that is bigger, better, and covers everyone and not add a single cent to the national deficit is just plain arrogant and a downright lie to the faces of the public.

Edited for mistype.

[kcvet]

the democraps tried to force this deathcare bill thru without even reading it and no discussion !!!! obviously their hiding something(s) from us. Reid and Pelosi want a nuke it thru so the Gop can't read it. so much for transparency in gov.
here's the bill. all 1700 pages of it. you may need a lawyer for interpretation. in PDF HR3200

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf

clear as mud !!!



YouTube - Congressman Kevin Brady Explains the Obama Health Care Bill - part 1

[Bike]

As far as I'm concerned, health insurance shouldn't be needed. Just a luxury for those that can afford the better healthcare.

I am not suggesting free health insurance. I am suggesting free healthcare.



Not on Bike's dollar. But I will gladly pay the higher tax to ensure that that kid gets the healthcare he needs, and yes HAS A RIGHT TO!

At one point I was working 3 jobs and my wife worked full time so that we could take care of our family. Its called working your a$$ off to support your family. Its sad that we have become so lazy in this country that we need the gov't to take care of us.
You reap what you sow.

[Bike]

I recently asked a friend's little girl what she wanted to be when she grows up. She said she wanted to be President some day. Both of her parents, liberal Democrats, were standing there, so I asked her, 'If you were President what would be the first thing you would do?'
She replied, 'I'd give food and houses to all the homeless people.'
Her parents beamed.
'Wow...what a worthy goal.' I told her, 'But you don't have to wait until you're President to do that. You can come over to my house and mow the lawn, pull weeds, and sweep my yard, and I'll pay you $50. Then I'll take you over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $50 to use toward food and a new house.'
She thought that over for a few seconds, then she looked me straight in the eye and asked, 'Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50?'
I said, 'Welcome to the Republican Party.'
Her parents still aren't speaking to me.

[kcvet]

YouTube - Democrats Stuck on an Escalator

[tornadospotter]

I hate this thread!!! But so be it. What the hell has Obama done to deserve a Noble Peace Award??????:sign0094::sign0023:

[Guru]

I hate this thread!!! But so be it. What the hell has Obama done to deserve a Noble Peace Award??????:sign0094::sign0023:Hence why it is the only political thread allowed. I should probably update the lead post since it is so out of date now but want HermHaters permission on that first.

As far as your question...

That my friend is the question of the century.

[tornadospotter]

John was in the fertilized egg business. He had several hundred young layers (hens), called 'pullets,' and ten roosters to fertilize the eggs.

He kept records, and any rooster not performing went into the soup pot and was replaced.

This took a lot of time, so he bought some tiny bells and attached them to his roosters.

Each bell had a different tone, so he could tell from a distance,
which rooster was performing.

Now, he could sit on the porch and fill out an efficiency report
by just listening to the bells.

John's favorite rooster, Hussein, was a very fine specimen,
but this morning he noticed Hussein's bell hadn't rung at all!

When he went to investigate, he saw the other roosters were busy chasing pullets, bells-a-ringing, but the pullets, hearing the roosters coming, could run for cover.

To John's amazement, Hussein had his bell in his beak, so it couldn't ring.

He'd sneak up on a pullet, do his job and walk on to the next one. John was so proud of Hussein, he entered him in the Renfrew County Fair and he became an overnight sensation among the judges.

The result was the judges not only awarded Hussein the No Bell Piece Prize but they also awarded him the Pulletsurprise as well. Clearly Hussein was a politician in the making.

Who else but a politician could figure out how to win two of the

most highly coveted awards on our planet by being the best at

sneaking up on the populace and screwing them when they weren't paying attention.

Vote carefully, the bells are not always audible.

[tammietailgator]

John was in the fertilized egg business. He had several hundred young layers (hens), called 'pullets,' and ten roosters to fertilize the eggs.

He kept records, and any rooster not performing went into the soup pot and was replaced.

This took a lot of time, so he bought some tiny bells and attached them to his roosters.

Each bell had a different tone, so he could tell from a distance,
which rooster was performing.

Now, he could sit on the porch and fill out an efficiency report
by just listening to the bells.

John's favorite rooster, Hussein, was a very fine specimen,
but this morning he noticed Hussein's bell hadn't rung at all!

When he went to investigate, he saw the other roosters were busy chasing pullets, bells-a-ringing, but the pullets, hearing the roosters coming, could run for cover.

To John's amazement, Hussein had his bell in his beak, so it couldn't ring.

He'd sneak up on a pullet, do his job and walk on to the next one. John was so proud of Hussein, he entered him in the Renfrew County Fair and he became an overnight sensation among the judges.

The result was the judges not only awarded Hussein the No Bell Piece Prize but they also awarded him the Pulletsurprise as well. Clearly Hussein was a politician in the making.

Who else but a politician could figure out how to win two of the

most highly coveted awards on our planet by being the best at

sneaking up on the populace and screwing them when they weren't paying attention.

Vote carefully, the bells are not always audible.
:bananen_smilies046::11: I declare this my vote for post of the year!!!!!

[kcvet]

I hate this thread!!! But so be it. What the hell has Obama done to deserve a Noble Peace Award??????:sign0094::sign0023:

Obama largely won the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize for offering the world hope, rather than for practical accomplishments, and as a possibly counterproductive encouragement for what he might accomplish in the future.

for any future accomplishments. make sense???? of course not. the prize is run by far left lug nuts. it was also a slap at Bush.

here's your sign. it was also given to a terrorists named Yasser Arafat many years ago.

[Canada]

Dosent any of the things he did before he bacame president count? I hear a lot of people complaining that Obama got the prize after such a short time as president, but the Nobel Peace Prize is not reserved for those who are president. Im just askin', not trying to start anything but dosent anyone count what he has done his whole life, not just the last year?

[kcvet]

Dosent any of the things he did before he bacame president count? I hear a lot of people complaining that Obama got the prize after such a short time as president, but the Nobel Peace Prize is not reserved for those who are president. Im just askin', not trying to start anything but dosent anyone count what he has done his whole life, not just the last year?

you mean like his ties to Terrorists like unrepentant Underground bomber William Ayers and crooked organizations like ACORN ????

[IlovetheChiefs]

Dosent any of the things he did before he bacame president count? I hear a lot of people complaining that Obama got the prize after such a short time as president, but the Nobel Peace Prize is not reserved for those who are president. Im just askin', not trying to start anything but dosent anyone count what he has done his whole life, not just the last year?

True it's not just for presidents. But in his case there isn't any accomplishments before his presidency either. He is easily the most unqualified and inexperienced person the USA ever elected POTUS.

And to make matters worse, as kcvet mentioned above, the few things Obama is known for prior to the election are corruption like ties to terrorist organizations and associations with corrupt people and people with communist, marxist, and anti-American radical views.

[Chiefster]

True it's not just for presidents. But in his case there isn't any accomplishments before his presidency either. He is easily the most unqualified and inexperienced person the USA ever elected POTUS.

And to make matters worse, as kcvet mentioned above, the few things Obama is known for prior to the election are corruption like ties to terrorist organizations and associations with corrupt people and people with communist, marxist, and anti-American radical views.


...And yet he was elected to lead our nation; scary isn't it?

[Vanilla Garilla]

OK, this thread has turned into a regurgitation of Sarah Palin's campaign speeches. Just saying.....

[IlovetheChiefs]

...And yet he was elected to lead our nation; scary isn't it?

Sure is, as well as scary for what he could do before his term is over.

Too many were so caught up in his charisma, the "historical" situation of his election, and his meaningless slogans like, "Yes we can!" and "Time for change!". His supporters didn't care that he never said anything of actual substance.

[kcvet]

well now lets take a look at his supporters

YouTube - How Obama Got Elected... Interviews With Obama Voters

it was a close election. what made the diff??? ACORN and the liberal MSM. ACORN has now been prosecuted on a number of charges including voter fraud. read on:

source (source)

it was ACORN that lead the way to the mortgage meltdown. with the help of some dems. more recently indictments have been handed out for bringing young prostitutes into the country and providing tax free brothels. and on it goes

read all about it here (read all about it here)

[stricken721]

OK, this thread has turned into a regurgitation of Sarah Palin's campaign speeches. Just saying.....


Yup. :bananen_smilies046:

[Sn@keIze]

Sorry. This probly belongs in the Politics thread. But i didnt want to sidetrack whatever you guys were talkin about. Mods feel free to move this into that thread if you want.

But I need to hear it from myself. From someone who lives there. Not no rite or left media.

Canada, and/or anybody else that lives in Canada:

How is your universal healthcare system up there?

Are you happy with it?

Is it better than the american system?

How long are your waits?

How is your service?

[Canada]

Its honestly not the gretest system. I can't fairly compare it to what you have in the US as I have never been to a hospital in the States. I am however quite comfortable knowing that if i (or anyone in my family) even needs any type of healthcare, I dont have to worry about the $$$. There are times when you will wait a fairly long time when u go to the hospital but that is another discussion all together. Fact is that if I were to have a major Heart Attack or get seriously injured, there is no cost, nor is there a wait. You are immediately at the front of the line. People here are treated according to how badly they need medical attention. Those who need it most get it first. Those who wait long times are usually those who can afford to wait longer. While we pay higher taxes for the services we have, I can not imagine living without them. As much as some people may disagree with me, I think it is every persons right to have health coverage at any hospital at any time.

[Hayvern]

OK, this thread has turned into a regurgitation of Sarah Palin's campaign speeches. Just saying.....

Well that didn't take long!

[Chiefster]

OK, this thread has turned into a regurgitation of Sarah Palin's campaign speeches. Just saying.....

A fair observation. :D

[DT14PRIEST]

Well that didn't take long!

For real. When the going gets tough bash on Sarah Palin and duck out

[Chiefster]

Sorry. This probly belongs in the Politics thread. But i didnt want to sidetrack whatever you guys were talkin about. Mods feel free to move this into that thread if you want.

But I need to hear it from myself. From someone who lives there. Not no rite or left media.

Canada, and/or anybody else that lives in Canada:

How is your universal healthcare system up there?

Are you happy with it?

Is it better than the american system?

How long are your waits?

How is your service?


Its honestly not the gretest system. I can't fairly compare it to what you have in the US as I have never been to a hospital in the States. I am however quite comfortable knowing that if i (or anyone in my family) even needs any type of healthcare, I dont have to worry about the $$$. There are times when you will wait a fairly long time when u go to the hospital but that is another discussion all together. Fact is that if I were to have a major Heart Attack or get seriously injured, there is no cost, nor is there a wait. You are immediately at the front of the line. People here are treated according to how badly they need medical attention. Those who need it most get it first. Those who wait long times are usually those who can afford to wait longer. While we pay higher taxes for the services we have, I can not imagine living without them. As much as some people may disagree with me, I think it is every persons right to have health coverage at any hospital at any time.


Thread and subsequent response combined as requested. :D

[Vanilla Garilla]

For real. When the going gets tough bash on Sarah Palin and duck out

I did not once Bash on Palin, although there is plenty of material i could use if i wanted to :P

[Chiefster]

I did not once Bash on Palin, although there is plenty of material i could use if i wanted to :P

Politicians by their very nature gives us all material by which to bash them, and why not; they're more then compensated. I'm convinced that they really don't care how we feel about them; except, of course, around election time. :D

[chief31]

At one point I was working 3 jobs and my wife worked full time so that we could take care of our family. Its called working your a$$ off to support your family. Its sad that we have become so lazy in this country that we need the gov't to take care of us.
You reap what you sow.

And you feel that you should be required to hold four jobs just to get by?


I recently asked a friend's little girl what she wanted to be when she grows up. She said she wanted to be President some day. Both of her parents, liberal Democrats, were standing there, so I asked her, 'If you were President what would be the first thing you would do?'
She replied, 'I'd give food and houses to all the homeless people.'
Her parents beamed.
'Wow...what a worthy goal.' I told her, 'But you don't have to wait until you're President to do that. You can come over to my house and mow the lawn, pull weeds, and sweep my yard, and I'll pay you $50. Then I'll take you over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $50 to use toward food and a new house.'
She thought that over for a few seconds, then she looked me straight in the eye and asked, 'Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50?'
I said, 'Welcome to the Republican Party.'
Her parents still aren't speaking to me.

Because, Honey, that job isn't being offered to him. Just to you, Sweetheart.

But even if it was being offered to him, he doesn't have any transportation to get to work, so I'll fire him after he doesn't make it one time.

And, since I only offer it to you this one time, and maybe, in part, in another month, that $50 would be his income for the job each month, until winter comes.

So the job that I refuse to offer him, is really only worth about $20 a month. Because I'll be damned if that work is really worth $50. I think I'll be able to con him down to 20. After all, he's desperate.

Silly ain't, it, that with me completely unwilling to pay him $20 a month, that he can't find himself a home, ain't it?

[Bike]

And you feel that you should be required to hold four jobs just to get by?

Well I certainly don't expect somebody else to do it for me...



Because, Honey, that job isn't being offered to him. Just to you, Sweetheart.

But even if it was being offered to him, he doesn't have any transportation to get to work, so I'll fire him after he doesn't make it one time.

And, since I only offer it to you this one time, and maybe, in part, in another month, that $50 would be his income for the job each month, until winter comes.

So the job that I refuse to offer him, is really only worth about $20 a month. Because I'll be damned if that work is really worth $50. I think I'll be able to con him down to 20. After all, he's desperate.

Silly ain't, it, that with me completely unwilling to pay him $20 a month, that he can't find himself a home, ain't it?
The point being we should have to earn the things we want and need.

[kcvet]

I was told at a very early age the world does not owe me a living. I took it from there

[Hayvern]

Many years ago people came to this country for opportunity, they came here knowing they would have to work, but that hard work would be rewarded. They ran away from places where socialist or communist ideas oppressed them and kept them down. They came here with a skill, some knowledge and the intestinal fortitude to stand up and take a chance.

Some made it, some didn't be each and every one of them knew the meaning of hard work and did not expect a handout to make it happen.

How times have changed.

As my favorite President said:

"The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life." - Theodore Roosevelt

[Guru]

OK, this thread has turned into a regurgitation of Sarah Palin's campaign speeches. Just saying.....
I don't know about that. I have only read one thing of hers since the campaign ended last November.

What you are seeing posted are conservative viewpoints. Not Republican or far right. There is a difference.

[chief31]

That's all good in theory. But the hardest working people in America are broke as ****.

Hard work does not translate into financial success.

The guy who carries the shingles to the top of the roof gets paid the least, while the guy who does no more than to talk gets paid the most.

Ever heard the term "It takes money to make money"?

Those who "have" simply squeeze money from those who "have not". Then they label those same "have nots" as lazy.

And they scream like banshees if the government tries to regulate them in any way. But let the free market speak up against them, in the form of a labor union, and watch them run begging for government regulation.

And, because they can afford to buy the law, they get it.

Yet they still move the jobs overseas so they can pay less for the labor that they NEED.

Then they have the nerve to call the guy they put out of work lazy.

And do I think that the government should be helping people who are in need? Well... "By the people, FOR THE PEOPLE" Yes I do.

The vast majority of those who are "in need" don't want a handout. They want to be able to work for their needs.

But with fewer jobs that can meet those needs than there are people with those needs, there is a guarantee on millions of Americans being unable to make a living.

greed (grēd)
n. An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/greed?jss=1

Main Entry: greed

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed

greed - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed)

[Canada]

That's all good in theory. But the hardest working people in America are broke as ****.

Hard work does not translate into financial success.

There is no sure fire way to be successful, but one thing most successful people have in common is ....hard work.

The guy who carries the shingles to the top of the roof gets paid the least, while the guy who does no more than to talk gets paid the most.

The guy who does no more than talk was probably the guy who carried the shingles to the roof at one point.

Ever heard the term "It takes money to make money"?

It takes work to make money.

Those who "have" simply squeeze money from those who "have not". Then they label those same "have nots" as lazy.

Then earn some money and start squeezing. I think most people who dont work are lazy. Why else would they not be working? I have met plenty of people on welfare or other types of social assistance because working at McDonalds is beneath them.

And they scream like banshees if the government tries to regulate them in any way. But let the free market speak up against them, in the form of a labor union, and watch them run begging for government regulation.

And, because they can afford to buy the law, they get it.

So the employees should be able to dictate how I run my business?

Yet they still move the jobs overseas so they can pay less for the labor that they NEED.

Maybe if unions did not price themselves out of work they would not have to go overseas.

Then they have the nerve to call the guy they put out of work lazy.

Lazy....greedy....entitled. Whatever u want to call it.
And do I think that the government should be helping people who are in need? Well... "By the people, FOR THE PEOPLE" Yes I do.

The vast majority of those who are "in need" don't want a handout. They want to be able to work for their needs.

But with fewer jobs that can meet those needs than there are people with those needs, there is a guarantee on millions of Americans being unable to make a living.

greed (grēd)
n. An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/greed?jss=1

Main Entry: greed

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed

greed - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed)

Im just sayin. :bananen_smilies046:

[Bike]

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

Thomas Jefferson

[Hayvern]

That's all good in theory. But the hardest working people in America are broke as ****.

Hard work does not translate into financial success.

The guy who carries the shingles to the top of the roof gets paid the least, while the guy who does no more than to talk gets paid the most.

Ever heard the term "It takes money to make money"?

Those who "have" simply squeeze money from those who "have not". Then they label those same "have nots" as lazy.

And they scream like banshees if the government tries to regulate them in any way. But let the free market speak up against them, in the form of a labor union, and watch them run begging for government regulation.

And, because they can afford to buy the law, they get it.

Yet they still move the jobs overseas so they can pay less for the labor that they NEED.

Then they have the nerve to call the guy they put out of work lazy.

And do I think that the government should be helping people who are in need? Well... "By the people, FOR THE PEOPLE" Yes I do.

The vast majority of those who are "in need" don't want a handout. They want to be able to work for their needs.

But with fewer jobs that can meet those needs than there are people with those needs, there is a guarantee on millions of Americans being unable to make a living.

greed (grēd)
n. An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/greed?jss=1

Main Entry: greed

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed

greed - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed)

If you are happy being that guy that carries the shingles to the roof of the house, then be that guy. But don't be angry when that job does not pay as much as you need to live.

If you are unhappy about it, then pick your butt up by your bootstraps, go back to school, study, get some skills and go out and do something else.

That is what is meant by being lazy. Face it, it doesn't take much knowledge, investment in time, or risk to be the guy that carries the shingles up on the roof, but we need those guys out there. It isn't going to pay you $100K per year though, simply because you are not worth that much, any monkey can carry shingles to the top of the roof.

Now, if you also have the skills then to start a row of shingles, getting the proper layout, knowing how to interweave the shingles in the roof valley and you know how to cap it off, then you are worth more. If you want more money, go out there and get those skills and prove to your boss that you can do those things.

But to site there and moan and complain about woah is you that you are not getting enough money for carrying shingles is not going to get it done. If anything, it will only create a situation where you feel resentful and that the world owes you something. Oops, looks like you are there already.

You need to change you attitude and get out there and make it happen.

This is somethign I know from personal experience. There was a time when I had to go out and dig ditches for minimum wage, but I did it because I knew that I needed to have a job. I worked hard, I paid attention and every opportunity I had to learn something, to get on a backhoe, or a bulldozer and learn something about it, I took it. Before long, I was moved up because I was WORTH more, then moved up again, and at each step I learned more about what it would take to make that next step.

About three years later, I was a foreman for the construction company and was in charge of million dollar projects and up to 12 men at a time.

After realizing I could not work in construction all my life, I changed careers. Again I started at the bottom of my new chosen career, I went back to school and studied hard, learning everything I could.

6 years later, I am now in charge of multi-million dollar software development projects, I have anywhere from 6 to 10 developers working on my projects at any given time.

You can do it, but the defeatist attitude has got to go, step up, change your attitude and get out there and work hard, you will be successful.

Or you can site back and complain about how life is so unfair, your choice.

[Bike]

If you are happy being that guy that carries the shingles to the roof of the house, then be that guy. But don't be angry when that job does not pay as much as you need to live.

If you are unhappy about it, then pick your butt up by your bootstraps, go back to school, study, get some skills and go out and do something else.

That is what is meant by being lazy. Face it, it doesn't take much knowledge, investment in time, or risk to be the guy that carries the shingles up on the roof, but we need those guys out there. It isn't going to pay you $100K per year though, simply because you are not worth that much, any monkey can carry shingles to the top of the roof.

Now, if you also have the skills then to start a row of shingles, getting the proper layout, knowing how to interweave the shingles in the roof valley and you know how to cap it off, then you are worth more. If you want more money, go out there and get those skills and prove to your boss that you can do those things.

But to site there and moan and complain about woah is you that you are not getting enough money for carrying shingles is not going to get it done. If anything, it will only create a situation where you feel resentful and that the world owes you something. Oops, looks like you are there already.

You need to change you attitude and get out there and make it happen.

This is somethign I know from personal experience. There was a time when I had to go out and dig ditches for minimum wage, but I did it because I knew that I needed to have a job. I worked hard, I paid attention and every opportunity I had to learn something, to get on a backhoe, or a bulldozer and learn something about it, I took it. Before long, I was moved up because I was WORTH more, then moved up again, and at each step I learned more about what it would take to make that next step.

About three years later, I was a foreman for the construction company and was in charge of million dollar projects and up to 12 men at a time.

After realizing I could not work in construction all my life, I changed careers. Again I started at the bottom of my new chosen career, I went back to school and studied hard, learning everything I could.

6 years later, I am now in charge of multi-million dollar software development projects, I have anywhere from 6 to 10 developers working on my projects at any given time.

You can do it, but the defeatist attitude has got to go, step up, change your attitude and get out there and work hard, you will be successful.

Or you can site back and complain about how life is so unfair, your choice.
Well said. :bananen_smilies046:

[Chiefster]

I don't know about that. I have only read one thing of hers since the campaign ended last November.

What you are seeing posted are conservative viewpoints. Not Republican or far right. There is a difference.


Ditto that!

[kilobytes]

That's all good in theory. But the hardest working people in America are broke as ****.

Hard work does not translate into financial success.

The guy who carries the shingles to the top of the roof gets paid the least, while the guy who does no more than to talk gets paid the most.

Ever heard the term "It takes money to make money"?

Those who "have" simply squeeze money from those who "have not". Then they label those same "have nots" as lazy.

And they scream like banshees if the government tries to regulate them in any way. But let the free market speak up against them, in the form of a labor union, and watch them run begging for government regulation.

And, because they can afford to buy the law, they get it.

Yet they still move the jobs overseas so they can pay less for the labor that they NEED.

Then they have the nerve to call the guy they put out of work lazy.

And do I think that the government should be helping people who are in need? Well... "By the people, FOR THE PEOPLE" Yes I do.

The vast majority of those who are "in need" don't want a handout. They want to be able to work for their needs.

But with fewer jobs that can meet those needs than there are people with those needs, there is a guarantee on millions of Americans being unable to make a living.

greed (grēd)
n. An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/greed?jss=1

Main Entry: greed

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed

greed - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed)
I completely agree.

[Sn@keIze]

Many years ago people came to this country for opportunity, they came here knowing they would have to work, but that hard work would be rewarded. They ran away from places where socialist or communist ideas oppressed them and kept them down. They came here with a skill, some knowledge and the intestinal fortitude to stand up and take a chance.

Some made it, some didn't be each and every one of them knew the meaning of hard work and did not expect a handout to make it happen.

How times have changed.

As my favorite President said:

"The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life." - Theodore RooseveltThis is true. Its in a way a cycle. We fight to become the world power for soft living and the opportune to get rich quick. Which will be our down fall. There have been several world powers b4 the U.S. ( Babylon, Assyria, Greece,Rome etc). There was a time where you wish you werent born here.


That's all good in theory. But the hardest working people in America are broke as ****.

Hard work does not translate into financial success.

The guy who carries the shingles to the top of the roof gets paid the least, while the guy who does no more than to talk gets paid the most.

Ever heard the term "It takes money to make money"?

Those who "have" simply squeeze money from those who "have not". Then they label those same "have nots" as lazy.

And they scream like banshees if the government tries to regulate them in any way. But let the free market speak up against them, in the form of a labor union, and watch them run begging for government regulation.

And, because they can afford to buy the law, they get it.

Yet they still move the jobs overseas so they can pay less for the labor that they NEED.

Then they have the nerve to call the guy they put out of work lazy.

And do I think that the government should be helping people who are in need? Well... "By the people, FOR THE PEOPLE" Yes I do.

The vast majority of those who are "in need" don't want a handout. They want to be able to work for their needs.

But with fewer jobs that can meet those needs than there are people with those needs, there is a guarantee on millions of Americans being unable to make a living.

greed (grēd)
n. An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/greed?jss=1

Main Entry: greed

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed

greed - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed)True. the people wearing ties then going to play golf are the ones making $.


If you are happy being that guy that carries the shingles to the roof of the house, then be that guy. But don't be angry when that job does not pay as much as you need to live.

If you are unhappy about it, then pick your butt up by your bootstraps, go back to school, study, get some skills and go out and do something else.

That is what is meant by being lazy. Face it, it doesn't take much knowledge, investment in time, or risk to be the guy that carries the shingles up on the roof, but we need those guys out there. It isn't going to pay you $100K per year though, simply because you are not worth that much, any monkey can carry shingles to the top of the roof.

Now, if you also have the skills then to start a row of shingles, getting the proper layout, knowing how to interweave the shingles in the roof valley and you know how to cap it off, then you are worth more. If you want more money, go out there and get those skills and prove to your boss that you can do those things.

But to site there and moan and complain about woah is you that you are not getting enough money for carrying shingles is not going to get it done. If anything, it will only create a situation where you feel resentful and that the world owes you something. Oops, looks like you are there already.

You need to change you attitude and get out there and make it happen.

This is somethign I know from personal experience. There was a time when I had to go out and dig ditches for minimum wage, but I did it because I knew that I needed to have a job. I worked hard, I paid attention and every opportunity I had to learn something, to get on a backhoe, or a bulldozer and learn something about it, I took it. Before long, I was moved up because I was WORTH more, then moved up again, and at each step I learned more about what it would take to make that next step.

About three years later, I was a foreman for the construction company and was in charge of million dollar projects and up to 12 men at a time.

After realizing I could not work in construction all my life, I changed careers. Again I started at the bottom of my new chosen career, I went back to school and studied hard, learning everything I could.

6 years later, I am now in charge of multi-million dollar software development projects, I have anywhere from 6 to 10 developers working on my projects at any given time.

You can do it, but the defeatist attitude has got to go, step up, change your attitude and get out there and work hard, you will be successful.

Or you can site back and complain about how life is so unfair, your choice.Good post.

Its all about being happy. Personally, to me, Discard yourself of self pity, be thankful what you've got and more importantly,................
.
.............. be thankful for what you've don't have. If you were told tommorrow you have brain cancer and have 60 days to live. you would do anything to be that guy without cancer diggin in a ditch for minimum wage for the rest of your life.

[kilobytes]

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

Thomas Jefferson
There is a major downfall to this. If Capitalism is left unchecked the unfortunate will suffer. Whoever has the most capital in the first place wins.

Therefore a balance between Capitalism and Socialism is the best way to go.

That's all I will say.

[Bike]

There is a major downfall to this. If Capitalism is left unchecked the unfortunate will suffer. Whoever has the most capital in the first place wins.

Therefore a balance between Capitalism and Socialism is the best way to go.

That's all I will say.
Thats cool. Some people need the government to take care of them. And some people (hold your breath now) actually possess the ethics, motivation, and mental capacity to take care of themselves. If you are "unfortunate" as you put it, might I suggest putting your hands back in your pockets and walking your a$$ out the front door and making something of yourself.

[chief31]

Thats cool. Some people need the government to take care of them. And some people (hold your breath now) actually possess the ethics, motivation, and mental capacity to take care of themselves. If you are "unfortunate" as you put it, might I suggest putting your hands back in your pockets and walking your a$$ out the front door and making something of yourself.

Just out of curiosity, how do some people get the ethics, motivation and mental capacity to take care of themselves?

Is any of that learned? Maybe even taught?

Just checking to see if those people might be considered "fortunate" to have been taught, where maybe others weren't.

[Chiefster]

Just out of curiosity, how do some people get the ethics, motivation and mental capacity to take care of themselves?

Is any of that learned? Maybe even taught?

Just checking to see if those people might be considered "fortunate" to have been taught, where maybe others weren't.

Yup, that begins in the home IMO.

[Canada]

Just out of curiosity, how do some people get the ethics, motivation and mental capacity to take care of themselves?

Is any of that learned? Maybe even taught?

Just checking to see if those people might be considered "fortunate" to have been taught, where maybe others weren't.


Schools free....just sayin' :D

[Bike]

Just out of curiosity, how do some people get the ethics, motivation and mental capacity to take care of themselves?

Is any of that learned? Maybe even taught?

Just checking to see if those people might be considered "fortunate" to have been taught, where maybe others weren't.
I give up. Lets just give everybody free health care, food, and housing. I'm not quite sure where you want to get all this money to hand out to these lazy - uhum - unfortunate people. We are already the United States of China. They have a good chunk of our industry, jobs, and 4 trillion dollars of our debt. But thats ok, they will give us more money for your handouts. If we keep this up, the only jobs available to your children will be posting Chinese road signs. China has got to be laughing their collective a$$es off watching this circus. I suggest you get prepared (if you are able without gov't help), as the chickens will soon come home to roost...

[chief31]

I give up.

I don't blame you one bit.

That's how this discussion always goes. Then, once one gives up, it always goes directly into fear-mongering.

Well, I don't fear the Chinese half as much as I do insurance companies, CEOs and politicians. And those guys are already here raping us.

[Canada]

I give up. Lets just give everybody free health care, food, and housing. I'm not quite sure where you want to get all this money to hand out to these lazy - uhum - unfortunate people. We are already the United States of China. They have a good chunk of our industry, jobs, and 4 trillion dollars of our debt. But thats ok, they will give us more money for your handouts. If we keep this up, the only jobs available to your children will be posting Chinese road signs. China has got to be laughing their collective a$ off watching this circus. I suggest you get prepared (if you are able without gov't help), as the chickens will soon come home to roost...

So if u have free health care the Chinese are gonna take over your country?

[Hayvern]

Well, I don't fear the Chinese half as much as I do insurance companies, CEOs and politicians. And those guys are already here raping us.

Really? Tell me, how much margin does Aetna make? How about Anthem, Wellpoint, Humana? How much money do you really think they make in comparison to how much they have to pay out? Do you know?

Then how about pharmacuetical companies? How much do they make? What is their margin percentage?

Oh, and when WAS the last time you lived under communist rule? When was the last time you had to be worried about being shot because of your religious or political beliefs?

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and I am not sure why I am even wasting time writing this message, but here goes.

THe difference between the Chinese and a company/CEO, is that the Chinese are an authoritarian government that cares NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING for their people. The company/CEO at least realizes that unless they offer a product that people will BUY, they have no INCOME. You might think they are evil because they make money, but they make money because they offer something someone wants to buy, if that market dries up, they cease to exist.

With the Chinese, you have NO CHOICE. 0. zilch, nadda. So you had better think long and hard, go read some history, look at how the Chinese control free speech, control information, control their people, because if that is what you want, then you can most certainly get your wish, I am sure China will let you move there.

[Bike]

So if u have free health care the Chinese are gonna take over your country?
There ain't nothin' free.

[Bike]

Really? Tell me, how much margin does Aetna make? How about Anthem, Wellpoint, Humana? How much money do you really think they make in comparison to how much they have to pay out? Do you know?

Then how about pharmacuetical companies? How much do they make? What is their margin percentage?

Oh, and when WAS the last time you lived under communist rule? When was the last time you had to be worried about being shot because of your religious or political beliefs?

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and I am not sure why I am even wasting time writing this message, but here goes.

THe difference between the Chinese and a company/CEO, is that the Chinese are an authoritarian government that cares NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING for their people. The company/CEO at least realizes that unless they offer a product that people will BUY, they have no INCOME. You might think they are evil because they make money, but they make money because they offer something someone wants to buy, if that market dries up, they cease to exist.

With the Chinese, you have NO CHOICE. 0. zilch, nadda. So you had better think long and hard, go read some history, look at how the Chinese control free speech, control information, control their people, because if that is what you want, then you can most certainly get your wish, I am sure China will let you move there.
I think what a lot of people don't realize is that we are literally at war with China. Iraq and Afganistan are small potatoes compared to what we're up against with China - as they are literally buying this country up piece by piece. Whenever we import or buy ANYTHING from China, we are funding THEIR political agendas, THEIR slave labor, THEIR economy - NOT OURS. And we just keep borrowing money from these guys with no forseeable way of paying them back. Its just a matter of time before they turn in their debt card. Then what? A military solution? Where do we get our steel to sustain our war effort? We get 80% of it from China as we speak!
Maybe its time we open up our steel mills and refineries to OUR workers before its too late. Maybe its time we quit buying what we can't afford to pay for. If we don't see changes soon, our children will be rioting in the streets for food. These are drastic times - and they require drastic measures.
If I took a dump in your pudding, please note:

CHIEFS WILL KICK SOME FADER BUTT THIS SUNDAY!

[Chiefster]

Haven't any of you heard? All this will be moot come 2012. :lol:

[rbedgood]

So if u have free health care the Chinese are gonna take over your country?

I think the point was that we are already in debt to the point beyond comprehension to the Chinese government, and now we are talking about the single largest government spending bill ever in our country. Forget the arguments about whether it will work or not to fix healthcare, it isn't economically responsible...but neither is most of what Washington has done for the past 15+ years...

[tornadospotter]

Haven't any of you heard? All this will be moot come 2012. :lol:
WE Dang well better win a SUPER BOWL! SOON THEN!!!

[tornadospotter]

I think what a lot of people don't realize is that we are literally at war with China. Iraq and Afganistan are small potatoes compared to what we're up against with China - as they are literally buying this country up piece by piece. Whenever we import or buy ANYTHING from China, we are funding THEIR political agendas, THEIR slave labor, THEIR economy - NOT OURS. And we just keep borrowing money from these guys with no forseeable way of paying them back. Its just a matter of time before they turn in their debt card. Then what? A military solution? Where do we get our steel to sustain our war effort? We get 80% of it from China as we speak!
Maybe its time we open up our steel mills and refineries to OUR workers before its too late. Maybe its time we quit buying what we can't afford to pay for. If we don't see changes soon, our children will be rioting in the streets for food. These are drastic times - and they require drastic measures.
If I took a dump in your pudding, please note:

CHIEFS WILL KICK SOME FADER BUTT THIS SUNDAY!
Simply solution to the China problem, stop buying products made in China. Tax the hell out of companys that import made in China products that could be made here, so that made in USA is again a better way of taking care of our own! Look at what you are buying, if it does cost more, is it worth it, to buy something made here at home. Consumers can make a choice, the problem is, most do not care, or see how it efects the big picture of things.

[chief31]

Really? Tell me, how much margin does Aetna make? How about Anthem, Wellpoint, Humana? How much money do you really think they make in comparison to how much they have to pay out? Do you know?

Then how about pharmacuetical companies? How much do they make? What is their margin percentage?

Oh, and when WAS the last time you lived under communist rule? When was the last time you had to be worried about being shot because of your religious or political beliefs?

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and I am not sure why I am even wasting time writing this message, but here goes.

THe difference between the Chinese and a company/CEO, is that the Chinese are an authoritarian government that cares NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING for their people. The company/CEO at least realizes that unless they offer a product that people will BUY, they have no INCOME. You might think they are evil because they make money, but they make money because they offer something someone wants to buy, if that market dries up, they cease to exist.

With the Chinese, you have NO CHOICE. 0. zilch, nadda. So you had better think long and hard, go read some history, look at how the Chinese control free speech, control information, control their people, because if that is what you want, then you can most certainly get your wish, I am sure China will let you move there.

Go try to scare someone else. I am not scared of how they run anything.

They aren't coming in here like that, no matter what we owe them.

But you go ahead and shiver in your boots all you want.

[Bike]

Go try to scare someone else. I am not scared of how they run anything.

They aren't coming in here like that, no matter what we owe them.

But you go ahead and shiver in your boots all you want.
Ok wait 'till its completely broke - then fix it. Kinda sounds like the company I work for. Only in this case the survival of our country and our future generations are at stake. No biggie. Just kick back and enjoy the slow dissemination of our country.
And just so you know, I am not taking a Republican or Democratic approach to this issue; although some libs on this site may scream otherwise. I am taking a common sense approach. Just look around you...

[Canada]

Ok wait 'till its completely broke - then fix it. Kinda sounds like the company I work for. Only in this case the survival of our country and our future generations are at stake. No biggie. Just kick back and enjoy the slow dissemination of our country.
And just so you know, I am not taking a Republican or Democratic approach to this issue; although some libs on this site may scream otherwise. I am taking a common sense approach. Just look around you...

Or the football team you watch?!?! :D

[spiman]

Do not feel bad. Try ordering food around here {CaLif} Yesterday I had to point at the pictures on what to order. While during the meal she still spoke spanish to me..Duh Like I understood what tha F#@$ she was saying! Mexico won Calif back.. Viva la raza At least the food was good..

[chief31]

Ok wait 'till its completely broke - then fix it. Kinda sounds like the company I work for. Only in this case the survival of our country and our future generations are at stake. No biggie. Just kick back and enjoy the slow dissemination of our country.
And just so you know, I am not taking a Republican or Democratic approach to this issue; although some libs on this site may scream otherwise. I am taking a common sense approach. Just look around you...

No, not even your predictions scare me. I have my own.

Just like the last time republicans were in The White House for an extended term, all it takes is two terms of Dems to work down the ridiculous debt. It's about the only thing that Dems are any good for.

And, before you say it...

Two terms = Eight years. Not 11 months.

[Bike]

No, not even your predictions scare me. I have my own.

Just like the last time republicans were in The White House for an extended term, all it takes is two terms of Dems to work down the ridiculous debt. It's about the only thing that Dems are any good for.

And, before you say it...

Two terms = Eight years. Not 11 months.
If anything, this administration is putting us further in debt. And if they get their way, even further in debt. I see just the opposite as you in this case. So I call a truce on this issue, as we will never see eye to eye. One thing we do have in common though:
We are both Chiefs fans!!

[Chiefster]

Uh oh, the Chiefs fans deflection, chief31; resistance is futile. :D

j/k

[chief31]

If anything, this administration is putting us further in debt. And if they get their way, even further in debt. I see just the opposite as you in this case. So I call a truce on this issue, as we will never see eye to eye. One thing we do have in common though:
We are both Chiefs fans!!

I will grant the truce, with these closing thoughts...

The history during my lifetime shows, crystal clear, that when Republicans are in control of the White House, debt goes through the roof, and when Democrats are in the White House, debt gets reduced.

It hasn't even been 1/4 of a single term for the Dems yet. They are just trying to stop the momentum.

But...

GO CHIEFS!!!! Get us some o-linemen, and some coaches that know what to do with them!!!!!

[kcvet]

The history during my lifetime shows totally the opposite. democrats have a proven track record of super sized spending. its their way of solving problems. throw taxpayers $$$ at it. you have but to look at the spending since Jan.

name ME the last Gop prez that spent trillions in ONLY 8 or 9 mons. lets have his name.

Osama's stim pack was to create jobs. what, if i can, ask is the current unemplyment rate - anyone know??? its over 10%. the worst since 1983. 15% for returning vets. EPIC FAILURE. with YOUR $$$$.

a 2 trillion deficit in less thatn 10 mons. projected to reach 10 trillion. your kids kids kids will still be paying his debts for generations to come.

YouTube- We The People Stimulus Package

this IS the worst collection of idiots and morons since the founding fathers. is this what you elected them do ???

http://wa1.images.onesite.com/community.allhiphop.com/user/if.its.gangsta/obama_ballin.gif

he's just getting started. so cough it up. every buck you got.

and something else i wanna know

if YOU defy him your called a thug. part of a gang. and Pelosi has called you a Nazi. what admin in our history did this??? name me one.

[kilobytes]

I will give him a full term to judge him but all the pres can really do is veto and be the commander in Chief. Now it seems hes going Republican with this war in Afghan pissing his own party off. We will see. I laugh at people who think that whoever the other party is is evil or worse. All the lies. Our founding fathers weren't all great either. Capitalism plus Socialism works the best. They can't work on their own. Socialism, lazy people won't work. Capitalism lets big business and the rich rule which rips the people off. History proves this. I don't like Patriots or constitutionalists at all because they think anyone that disagrees is taking away their "freedom" and they label them Nazi's or Communists. I don't recall this administration labeling people thugs or part of a gang. And I especially don't recall Pelosi calling anyone a nazi. She said "unamerican" as much as I don't like her. So we can't name you one, period, that ever did these things. Don't let bias cloud your mind.

[Hayvern]

I will give him a full term to judge him but all the pres can really do is veto and be the commander in Chief. Now it seems hes going Republican with this war in Afghan pissing his own party off. We will see. I laugh at people who think that whoever the other party is is evil or worse. All the lies. Our founding fathers weren't all great either. Capitalism plus Socialism works the best. They can't work on their own. Socialism, lazy people won't work. Capitalism lets big business and the rich rule which rips the people off. History proves this. I don't like Patriots or constitutionalists at all because they think anyone that disagrees is taking away their "freedom" and they label them Nazi's or Communists. I don't recall this administration labeling people thugs or part of a gang. And I especially don't recall Pelosi calling anyone a nazi. She said "unamerican" as much as I don't like her. So we can't name you one, period, that ever did these things. Don't let bias cloud your mind.

frankly, the only bias I have is against Socialism. I would rather live in a country where I have opportunity to make money and be rich than live in one where no matter how hard I work I make the same as everyone else.

[Chiefster]

frankly, the only bias I have is against Socialism. I would rather live in a country where I have opportunity to make money and be rich than live in one where no matter how hard I work I make the same as everyone else.

Quoted for truth!

[tornadospotter]

Quoted for truth!
Truth has been spoken! I love what my Country is, I pray it is still what I love.

[kcvet]

he's murdering young kids in afghan for politics. their being used as political pawns. which burn's my A** since i served to.

now he's claims he's pulling out in 011. just to shut up the protesters. gooood morning Vietnam !!!!

[chief31]

he's murdering young kids in afghan for politics. their being used as political pawns. which burn's my A** since i served to.

now he's claims he's pulling out in 011. just to shut up the protesters. gooood morning Vietnam !!!!

Wait. Am I missing something? Isn't that a mess that some else started?

Seriously? Am I missing something?

[kcvet]

Wait. Am I missing something? Isn't that a mess that some else started?

Seriously? Am I missing something?

yes you are. his name was Usama Bin Laden. and BOTH parties agreed to go after him.

Obama claimed publicly this war was winnable. now like all liberals he's changed his mind.

if we leave the tali ban and Bin Laden move back into afghan and the genocide begins. they get their old bases back and plot another 9-11.

what was that guys name who won in Iraq???

[kilobytes]

frankly, the only bias I have is against Socialism. I would rather live in a country where I have opportunity to make money and be rich than live in one where no matter how hard I work I make the same as everyone else.
Just because you are hard working doesn't mean you will even be middle class under Capitalism. In the end they are equally terrible on their own unless everyone is really moral, nice, and perfect.
Thankfully we have been the middle road with Socialism and Capitalism. In the end, I wouldn't want to live in either kind of country. Blended, like the USA or Canada, is where I want to live.

[tornadospotter]

Wait. Am I missing something? Isn't that a mess that some else started?

Seriously? Am I missing something?
?????? You are not serious? This is where we should have been putting military resources in all along, I would agree, Iraq was finishing what should have been done the first time. But you surely do not mean, WE STARTED THIS WHOLE WAR!!!!
YouTube- 9/11: Have You Forgotten

[Hayvern]

Just because you are hard working doesn't mean you will even be middle class under Capitalism. In the end they are equally terrible on their own unless everyone is really moral, nice, and perfect.
Thankfully we have been the middle road with Socialism and Capitalism. In the end, I wouldn't want to live in either kind of country. Blended, like the USA or Canada, is where I want to live.

Sorry, I have to disagree and this post clearly is coming from someone who has not given it enough hard work yet.

If you get in and learn everything there is to know about the job you are doing and then work hard at it, even if that job is flipping burgers, you will be noticed and promoted.

Did you know you could potentially make 200K per year working for McDonalds? I had a friend who started 15 years ago working for McDonalds flipping burgers. In 6 months he was a manager for a store, in 4 years he was managing a region of stores. Now he is in the corporate HQ. I have not talked to him in years, but I am sure he is making better than a middle class salary as he designs work flows.

It is all about how you apply yourself. If you are the kind of person who is going to complain and only put out enough to get through the day, then you are not going to make it in a capitalistic society, but you will be just fine in a socialist society.

It's alright if you are that guy, we need those guys too, but you need to accept the fate you have made for yourself and stop trying to take my hard work and success away from me!

Why would you want to punish me anyway? What have I ever done to you? I have never in my career ever done anything to keep a fellow working down. I have measured myself against them though and always done MORE than they did. While my friends were out partying and having a good time, I studied and got a Masters degree. While my co-workers were angry that they were not getting raises, I was working 60 hours per week to make the company money.

Because that is what it is all about, you guys who are complaining about capitalism are some of the most selfish people EVER! You don't realize that the way you make money is to make money for the company, most of you just want to complain about how much money the company makes like somehow YOU are owed something for just showing up and gracing everyone else with your presence that day!

Look, healthcare, owning a house, owning a car and having a job are NOT RIGHTS!!! You have to work at it, and there are people on this board who are keenly aware of this.

America is the country with the most opportunity in it than any country on earth! Why do you think so many people want to come here??

OK, I'm done, off my soapbox!!

[kilobytes]

Sorry, I have to disagree and this post clearly is coming from someone who has not given it enough hard work yet.

If you get in and learn everything there is to know about the job you are doing and then work hard at it, even if that job is flipping burgers, you will be noticed and promoted.

Did you know you could potentially make 200K per year working for McDonalds? I had a friend who started 15 years ago working for McDonalds flipping burgers. In 6 months he was a manager for a store, in 4 years he was managing a region of stores. Now he is in the corporate HQ. I have not talked to him in years, but I am sure he is making better than a middle class salary as he designs work flows.

It is all about how you apply yourself. If you are the kind of person who is going to complain and only put out enough to get through the day, then you are not going to make it in a capitalistic society, but you will be just fine in a socialist society.

It's alright if you are that guy, we need those guys too, but you need to accept the fate you have made for yourself and stop trying to take my hard work and success away from me!

Why would you want to punish me anyway? What have I ever done to you? I have never in my career ever done anything to keep a fellow working down. I have measured myself against them though and always done MORE than they did. While my friends were out partying and having a good time, I studied and got a Masters degree. While my co-workers were angry that they were not getting raises, I was working 60 hours per week to make the company money.

Because that is what it is all about, you guys who are complaining about capitalism are some of the most selfish people EVER! You don't realize that the way you make money is to make money for the company, most of you just want to complain about how much money the company makes like somehow YOU are owed something for just showing up and gracing everyone else with your presence that day!

Look, healthcare, owning a house, owning a car and having a job are NOT RIGHTS!!! You have to work at it, and there are people on this board who are keenly aware of this.

America is the country with the most opportunity in it than any country on earth! Why do you think so many people want to come here??

OK, I'm done, off my soapbox!!
Ugh.....America is a blend of Capitalism and Socialism. Once again not everyone is fortunate enough to be hard working and yet that doesn't always matter. What is this punishing you thing come from? I believe in a blend of everything and thats what we are. We aren't fully capitalist. Not everyone is fortunate and everyone requires different needs. You can't just give people everything like Socialism but you also can't just let everyone figure everything out on their own. Then the fortunate people will rule with the most capital to begin with and then its basically Fascism. Free market doesn't mean free nation. I don't want to drift too far right nor too far left. I stand in the middle. I don't want left wing big government nor right wing big government. Really Im only pointing out the major flaws with capitalism so people wake up and realize it isn't all good. People already know Socialism's flaws in this nation so I will point out Capitalism's as well.

[Hayvern]

Ugh.....America is a blend of Capitalism and Socialism. Once again not everyone is fortunate enough to be hard working and yet that doesn't always matter.

What is fortunate about being hardworking? That is in YOUR control, whatever it is you are doing, do it the best you can. If you are unemployed, make getting a job your job! Spend time and research the companies you want to go for. Go into the interview with a clear plan on how YOU can help the company! There is nothing fortunate about these things, you just do it.


What is this punishing you thing come from? I believe in a blend of everything and thats what we are. We aren't fully capitalist. Not everyone is fortunate and everyone requires different needs. You can't just give people everything like Socialism but you also can't just let everyone figure everything out on their own.

The punishing part comes from the fact that the more money one makes, the more money the government takes. There are truly people out there that need help, but this country and especially the government we have now, want to make a new class of victims out there that feel that there is no help except through the government help. You have bitten and swallowed this hook, line and sinker!


Then the fortunate people will rule with the most capital to begin with and then its basically Fascism.

Really? Ummm I don't think you know what Fascism is. This current group is closer to Fascism than you think, they want to control the media, control the majority of the money in this country and ultimately want to push any opponent out of the way so they can do what they want to do. The want to control labor and business and that is completely inline with what Mussolini wanted to do.


Free market doesn't mean free nation. I don't want to drift too far right nor too far left. I stand in the middle. I don't want left wing big government nor right wing big government. Really Im only pointing out the major flaws with capitalism so people wake up and realize it isn't all good. People already know Socialism's flaws in this nation so I will point out Capitalism's as well.

Really? Because you really seem to be firmly entrenched in the socialism side of things. I would challenge you to find one good thing to say about capitalism. Do it, put up one thing that is good about Capitalism and how it has helped you in your life.

I am not saying that social programs are not needed, clearly we want to have government control on industry, that is what government was meant to do. We also want to have the military controlled by the government, we want to have roads and bridges. Some people say they want to have schools too, but I would say that the private sector has proven they can out perform Government education everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

I am alright with those things, but our Government and this particular administration has gone too far with their nationalist agenda. The American people do not like it. What Obama is trying to do it nationalize a big portion of the American economy and it is a horrible mistake in the making. Government cannot compete with the private sector it has been proven over and over and over again.

Yet, once the Federal Government takes something away, you will NEVER get it back, no matter how bloated and terrible it becomes it will ALWAYS be taken away, that is why we should fight for every freedom we have without fail and without prejudice.

Not to change the subject, but I once heard George Stephanopolos say that if the liberals in this country read the second amendment like they read the first or fifth amendments, not only would all gun ownership be legal, it would be required.

That is the problem in this country, people are willing to give up even the smallest of freedoms too easily. We need to fight for everyone of them, and yes, that includes your right to say you want a socialist government.

Capitalism does not determine freedom, in fact it is the opposite, you have to have freedom in order to have capitalism. The more that Government takes away, the more socialist our contry becomes.

[chief31]

yes you are. his name was Usama Bin Laden. and BOTH parties agreed to go after him.

Obama claimed publicly this war was winnable. now like all liberals he's changed his mind.

if we leave the tali ban and Bin Laden move back into afghan and the genocide begins. they get their old bases back and plot another 9-11.

what was that guys name who won in Iraq???

So wait... How is Obama murdering people? By not immediately withdrawing troops?

I am just failing to understand how you are blaming Obama for murdering people, I guess.


?????? You are not serious? This is where we should have been putting military resources in all along, I would agree, Iraq was finishing what should have been done the first time. But you surely do not mean, WE STARTED THIS WHOLE WAR!!!!
YouTube- 9/11: Have You Forgotten (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqCFq5sPxNo)

As much as people hate to hear it, THAT was not the first step in all of this.

Surely there was some reason why 9/11 happened. Why were those people so happy to give their lives to do that?

Were they maybe at war with us before that?

And, please, don't try to paint me as saying that 9/11 was somehow justified, or that the victims were somehow deserving.

I am not saying anything remotely close to that.

But, if you poke someone in the ribs, afte being repeatedly told (street demonstrations of "death to America") that it is unappreciated, might that someone hit you in the mouth, eventually?


Sorry, I have to disagree and this post clearly is coming from someone who has not given it enough hard work yet.

Clearly. Lol. Because if you work hard enough, it is just guaranteed that you will be a CEO.

If you get in and learn everything there is to know about the job you are doing and then work hard at it, even if that job is flipping burgers, you will be noticed and promoted.

Unless maybe you have any form of bias from your superiors. Oh, wait. That doesn't happen. Noone has ever shosen their friends for promotion, or specifically deselected someone they didn't like. That sort of thing only happens in real life.

Did you know you could potentially make 200K per year working for McDonalds? I had a friend who started 15 years ago working for McDonalds flipping burgers. In 6 months he was a manager for a store, in 4 years he was managing a region of stores. Now he is in the corporate HQ. I have not talked to him in years, but I am sure he is making better than a middle class salary as he designs work flows.

And, with so many billion people in this country, is there room enough for everyong to make it, if everyone really applies themselves, and does their job to the max?


It is all about how you apply yourself. If you are the kind of person who is going to complain and only put out enough to get through the day, then you are not going to make it in a capitalistic society, but you will be just fine in a socialist society.

And that's that! If you have the most money, it's because you you really did amazing work. Not because you used someone elses operating system to make that maoney. It's because you are the hardest working guy there is.

It's alright if you are that guy, we need those guys too, but you need to accept the fate you have made for yourself and stop trying to take my hard work and success away from me!

Capitalism isn't all about hard work and dedication. The rewards are not distributed in that way. Case in point? Paris Hilton, anyone?

Why would you want to punish me anyway? What have I ever done to you? I have never in my career ever done anything to keep a fellow working down. I have measured myself against them though and always done MORE than they did. While my friends were out partying and having a good time, I studied and got a Masters degree. While my co-workers were angry that they were not getting raises, I was working 60 hours per week to make the company money.

Even if you are one of the few that things worked the way they are supposed to for, certainly doesn't mean that that's how it works on a regular basis.


Because that is what it is all about, you guys who are complaining about capitalism are some of the most selfish people EVER! You don't realize that the way you make money is to make money for the company, most of you just want to complain about how much money the company makes like somehow YOU are owed something for just showing up and gracing everyone else with your presence that day!

There's a concept. The selfish one's are the one's who have nothing. And those who have multiple homes, cars, boats, even jets, are clearly the victims of these overly greedy unsharing broke folks.

Look, healthcare, owning a house, owning a car and having a job are NOT RIGHTS!!! You have to work at it, and there are people on this board who are keenly aware of this.

But being able to provide those things for your family damn well should be.

But how many jobs that pay enough to buy a home are available? Do you really believe that it is enough to employ all Americans, should they all apply themselves?

And do we have some guarantee that, if you do your job as well as it can be done, that that job will be there for you? Not even a promotion, just that you won't get outscourced?

America is the country with the most opportunity in it than any country on earth! Why do you think so many people want to come here??

OK, I'm done, off my soapbox!!

Because the poverty line is nowhere near as bad as it is in their home countries.

Not like there are boatloads of French, British, German, Russian, Swedish, Icelanic, or Australian refugees hitting or beaches each day.

The fact that people flock here from poverty-stricken nations like they do, simply says that those countries are in worse shape than this.

And, before you bother to mention they few... Of course some people move here from those other nations. Just as some move from here to other nations.

You can be the hardest working, most dedicated employee to have ever existed.

But that does not, in any way, mean that you are going to be successful.

Just as you can be the laziest, not givin' a sh**inest, individual to ever exist and still have the world at your feet.

Those who have it do not redistribute it. They keep it.
There is never an opportunity for the wealth to be spread out. It is staying right where it is.

Capitalism is ruled by greed. Plain and simple.

It is clear as day, when rescue efforts, to save peoples' lives from a natural disaster are put on hold to prevent 'looting'.

As far as I am ever going to be concerned, the a**wipe drug dealer in 'the hood''s life is more important than every penny you have ever made.

I would be ecstatic to punish you financially, before punishing others with premature death.

No mater how lazy they are.

[Chiefster]

I think that things will never get any better until we can all find some sort of common ground somewhere in the middle of the road; this means compromise on both sides. It's a little like the Bud Light commercials where the "Bud Light" guy in the middle (the politicians) gets the two guys on each side of him (John Q. Public) arguing over weather or not Bud Light (the system) tastes great or is less filling.

...Or maybe I just see analogies in the weirdest places. :D

[kilobytes]

Okay then Ill say something positive about Capitalism, its economically successful. But behind the soaring stock market lies growing poverty and the rich continuing to prosper while other hard working middle to low class people get ripped off. Plus it creates classes and isn't good socially. The 20s are a great example of this. Monopolies aren't good at all. For instance EA sports with their madden franchise. No one else is allowed to make NFL games. Therefore they put no effort in to their game (no matter what any casual person says) each year because PEOPLE WILL BUY IT no matter what because its the only NFL game there is and it doesn't get any better. Its been garbage for 5 years now. Now back when 2k sports had their football game for competition then each company held each other in check. Just a little rant on that now terrible unrealistic franchise..yuck. Also 2k sports with their MLB franchise in that no one else can make MLB games on more than one console. Another terrible franchise that makes no progress and people will buy it. I don't understand this MLB and NFL license crap as it is basically a monopoly. I know they are video games but its just unacceptable. Just an example of modern day monopoly like companies even though thankfully they are illegal.

anyway......
Ha Obama is now starting to go moderate on us with his small business plan straight out of the conservative playbook plus this war in Afghanistan. More moderate than people once thought yet people will still complain on both sides. he is still a little more liberal. Obama made a pretty bold speech about the war the other day that received high praise from conservatives. Strange...

and where the heck did that 1.1 trillion spending pack come from? I guess half of it goes to military defense but still its more money we don't have.

Alright Im sick of politics. There is a major downfall to Socialism, communism, Fascism, and Capitalism etc. History proves it so get over it.

[Canada]

Look, healthcare, owning a house, owning a car and having a job are NOT RIGHTS!!! You have to work at it, and there are people on this board who are keenly aware of this.



So good health, a roof over your head and transportation are things that only people with good jobs should have? Seems fair.

You seem to be under the impression that healthcare only affects the rich. Everyone pays into it and everyone gets basic healthcare. If u prefer your elitist attitude that you deserve better healthcare than some then you have every opportunity to get other care.

[pbatrucker]

Truth has been spoken! I love what my Country is, I pray it is still what I love.
IN GOD WE TRUST!! Damn I forgot, that's not politically correct anymore.

[stricken721]

So did anybody watch any primary elections tonight?

[tornadospotter]

Nope, I did not.

[stricken721]

Nope, I did not.

I guess it was only here in Texas that had them.

[tornadospotter]

I Believe that this Nation, USA should respond and help out those in need, in a time of Disaster! But I wonder why sometimes we are not helping are own first? Why are we as cititzens, supporting companies that take our jobs away? Why do you as a consumer, purchase items made from any company that closed down plants and jobs from our nation, lay off our people, to build plants in other countries, then turn around and sell it to us, and you buy it!!!! I am not against importing, I am not against creating jobs in other nations, I just wonder, if the CEO's, Chairman of the Board, the Board members of these companys, the stockholders, ect. Do they understand, what they are doing to US, in the name of profit. Some people with deep pockets, can afford to lose money, better than some with no pockets. Some with high education, are still not very smart!
This Nation, its people, you, me, each and everyone of us really needs to take a close look with in, and decide. It is up to each and everyone of us to say.
If it is to be, it is up to me!

[stricken721]

I Believe that this Nation, USA should respond and help out those in need, in a time of Disaster! But I wonder why sometimes we are not helping are own first? Why are we as cititzens, supporting companies that take our jobs away? Why do you as a consumer, purchase items made from any company that closed down plants and jobs from our nation, lay off our people, to build plants in other countries, then turn around and sell it to us, and you buy it!!!! I am not against importing, I am not against creating jobs in other nations, I just wonder, if the CEO's, Chairman of the Board, the Board members of these companys, the stockholders, ect. Do they understand, what they are doing to US, in the name of profit. Some people with deep pockets, can afford to lose money, better than some with no pockets. Some with high education, are still not very smart!
This Nation, its people, you, me, each and everyone of us really needs to take a close look with in, and decide. It is up to each and everyone of us to say.
If it is to be, it is up to me!


YouTube- John Lennon - Power To The People

[Hayvern]

I Believe that this Nation, USA should respond and help out those in need, in a time of Disaster! But I wonder why sometimes we are not helping are own first? Why are we as cititzens, supporting companies that take our jobs away? Why do you as a consumer, purchase items made from any company that closed down plants and jobs from our nation, lay off our people, to build plants in other countries, then turn around and sell it to us, and you buy it!!!! I am not against importing, I am not against creating jobs in other nations, I just wonder, if the CEO's, Chairman of the Board, the Board members of these companys, the stockholders, ect. Do they understand, what they are doing to US, in the name of profit. Some people with deep pockets, can afford to lose money, better than some with no pockets. Some with high education, are still not very smart!
This Nation, its people, you, me, each and everyone of us really needs to take a close look with in, and decide. It is up to each and everyone of us to say.
If it is to be, it is up to me!

I agree with you, this really is a huge part of what has caused our problems of late with unemployment. We turned our economy into a service industry, then we outsourced all the service jobs.

What is worse, the only real commodities we have been exporting is our money and our knowledge of money. Both of which are now in short supply.

Until we start manufacturing again, OR, we place huge tariffs on those items being shipped into this country to make them compete on par with those made in America, we are going to be in trouble.

By the way, this is not a republican/democrat thing, both parties were responsible for getting us into this mess.

[Chiefster]

...By the way, this is not a republican/democrat thing, both parties were responsible for getting us into this mess.


As HH would say: "Word"!

[Chiefster]

I agree with this guy; all incumbents must go! :D

http://www.debtorsrebellion.com/video.htm

[stricken721]

I agree with this guy; all incumbents must go! :D

http://www.debtorsrebellion.com/video.htm

Though this may be walking me into a battlefield here but here it goes..

In 2008 I worked for the Obama campaign to get him elected, and made phone calls for other democratic candidates to get into the office. I still support my president because he is the leader of my country, but he hasn't done much of what he said he would do while he was running for office. Sure he had a healthcare bill (which our healthcare system needs reform) but it was a rather lame duck bill that will cost us billions, and in the long run will probably keep the healthcare industry just the same as it is today. The only thing I am proud to say that this president has done a good job at is ending the war in Iraq. This year will be my first year to vote in an election that isn't for just local candidates (When Obama won I was only 17) and I am looking forward to voting on who our Governor will be and congressional seat. But come 2012 I can't assure that I would vote for our president, things would have to change a lot. I don't agree with all the calls of "socialism" and "communism" that he gets and will say he has had a difficult presidency due to the economy, wars, BP and other situations. But it's not too late to turn around, or maybe it is?

But back to the topic.. I will say this in the house and senate we need to vote them all out and start over. Too bad the Federal government doesn't have a reset button. :sign0085:

[Hayvern]

Though this may be walking me into a battlefield here but here it goes..

In 2008 I worked for the Obama campaign to get him elected, and made phone calls for other democratic candidates to get into the office. I still support my president because he is the leader of my country, but he hasn't done much of what he said he would do while he was running for office. Sure he had a healthcare bill (which our healthcare system needs reform) but it was a rather lame duck bill that will cost us billions, and in the long run will probably keep the healthcare industry just the same as it is today. The only thing I am proud to say that this president has done a good job at is ending the war in Iraq. This year will be my first year to vote in an election that isn't for just local candidates (When Obama won I was only 17) and I am looking forward to voting on who our Governor will be and congressional seat. But come 2012 I can't assure that I would vote for our president, things would have to change a lot. I don't agree with all the calls of "socialism" and "communism" that he gets and will say he has had a difficult presidency due to the economy, wars, BP and other situations. But it's not too late to turn around, or maybe it is?

But back to the topic.. I will say this in the house and senate we need to vote them all out and start over. Too bad the Federal government doesn't have a reset button. :sign0085:

Communist? No. Socialist? Well about as close as you can get without actually using the title. I don't know how we got to this point that the Federal Government should pay for people's healthcare, homeloans, or how we got to this point that we should pay people for 99 weeks of being out of work. It is really sad that we have reached this point.

Obama did not get here alone though, yeah, it was his vision that took us here, but a very liberal, or dare I say, "socialist" congress has pushed us over the edge.

This is why the incumbants must go. And yes, incumbant republicans must go as well, at least many of them. They are the ones that spent like drunken sailors when Bush was in office.

We cannot sustain the spending, we have to pay all of this money back and where is that going to come from?

Bah, I hate politics!

[Chiefster]

Though this may be walking me into a battlefield here but here it goes..

In 2008 I worked for the Obama campaign to get him elected, and made phone calls for other democratic candidates to get into the office. I still support my president because he is the leader of my country, but he hasn't done much of what he said he would do while he was running for office. Sure he had a healthcare bill (which our healthcare system needs reform) but it was a rather lame duck bill that will cost us billions, and in the long run will probably keep the healthcare industry just the same as it is today. The only thing I am proud to say that this president has done a good job at is ending the war in Iraq. This year will be my first year to vote in an election that isn't for just local candidates (When Obama won I was only 17) and I am looking forward to voting on who our Governor will be and congressional seat. But come 2012 I can't assure that I would vote for our president, things would have to change a lot. I don't agree with all the calls of "socialism" and "communism" that he gets and will say he has had a difficult presidency due to the economy, wars, BP and other situations. But it's not too late to turn around, or maybe it is?

But back to the topic.. I will say this in the house and senate we need to vote them all out and start over. Too bad the Federal government doesn't have a reset button. :sign0085:

You and me both my friend.

[Chiefster]

Communist? No. Socialist? Well about as close as you can get without actually using the title. I don't know how we got to this point that the Federal Government should pay for people's healthcare, homeloans, or how we got to this point that we should pay people for 99 weeks of being out of work. It is really sad that we have reached this point.

Obama did not get here alone though, yeah, it was his vision that took us here, but a very liberal, or dare I say, "socialist" congress has pushed us over the edge.

This is why the incumbants must go. And yes, incumbant republicans must go as well, at least many of them. They are the ones that spent like drunken sailors when Bush was in office.

We cannot sustain the spending, we have to pay all of this money back and where is that going to come from?

Bah, I hate politics!

In these two statements lies the wisdom of the solution IMO.

[kcvet]

I support term limits. can't leave em in charge when they're senile. already told Kit Bond im voting his A** out. and all incumbants as well.

looks like the hope and change crowd has just about had it with Obama.

YouTube - Town Hall Questioner To Obama: 'I'm Exhausted Of Defending You'

she voted for the 08 model and now want's a refund

[Hayvern]

I support term limits. can't leave em in charge when they're senile. already told Kit Bond im voting his A** out. and all incumbants as well.

looks like the hope and change crowd has just about had it with Obama.

YouTube - Town Hall Questioner To Obama: 'I'm Exhausted Of Defending You' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHv1ENYAulY)

she voted for the 08 model and now want's a refund

I like the way Jon Stewart handled this, will try to find the You Tube of it if I can.

[kcvet]

I like the way Jon Stewart handled this, will try to find the You Tube of it if I can.

i can tell ya. he and liberal MSM are already screamin she was a tea party plant

[Hayvern]

i can tell ya. he and liberal MSM are already screamin she was a tea party plant

Well as far as Jon Stewart (I am not a huge fan btw). Anyway, Jon handled it pretty well.

Jon Stewart | CNBC Town Hall | Velma Hart Video | Mediaite (http://www.mediaite.com/online/jon-stewart-advises-president-on-town-hall-attendee-exhausted-of-defending-obama/)

The video is at the bottom of the page.

[kcvet]

Well as far as Jon Stewart (I am not a huge fan btw). Anyway, Jon handled it pretty well.

Jon Stewart | CNBC Town Hall | Velma Hart Video | Mediaite (http://www.mediaite.com/online/jon-stewart-advises-president-on-town-hall-attendee-exhausted-of-defending-obama/)

The video is at the bottom of the page.

oh he did a good job all right. as a comedian. that is his profession. is the laughter from a sound track???? he needs a sedative.

i heard this moron once say we can have a war without anyone getting killed.
next

[Hayvern]

oh he did a good job all right. as a comedian. that is his profession. is the laughter from a sound track???? he needs a sedative.

i heard this moron once say we can have a war without anyone getting killed.
next

I agree with you, I am not a fan of Stewart, I know a lot of people are, but I am not one of them. I just found it interesting that he bothered to talk about it at all and certainly to criticize "his guy" the way he did is uncharacteristic for him.

Of course, the part where he was saying that all of Obama's social programs is what Hart voted for turned my stomach, but at least there is now criticism for the "Great One". Maybe now we can move past the idea that Obama is somehow Holy and get on more with dealing with the issues.

[kcvet]

I agree with you, I am not a fan of Stewart, I know a lot of people are, but I am not one of them. I just found it interesting that he bothered to talk about it at all and certainly to criticize "his guy" the way he did is uncharacteristic for him.

Of course, the part where he was saying that all of Obama's social programs is what Hart voted for turned my stomach, but at least there is now criticism for the "Great One". Maybe now we can move past the idea that Obama is somehow Holy and get on more with dealing with the issues.


Maybe now we can move past the idea that Obama is somehow Holy and get on more with dealing with the issues

I knew this back in 08.

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2010/09/33.jpg



now if you say anything against him your branded as a racists. christ.

[kilobytes]

I knew this back in 08.

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2010/09/33.jpg



now if you say anything against him your branded as a racists. christ.

Well look at it the other way(no one ever does).

If you speak out against someone on the right you are labeled a Socialist or communist. This especially happened in the 20th century. No one even knew what these things truly were.

Liberals can't pull the Capitalist card BECAUSE EVERYONE JUST LOVES IT in this country, not realizing we have a bunch of socialist things that they like. So they just pull the racist card or something else

Both sides don't get it.

[kcvet]

Well look at it the other way(no one ever does).

If you speak out against someone on the right you are labeled a Socialist or communist. This especially happened in the 20th century. No one even knew what these things truly were.

Liberals can't pull the Capitalist card BECAUSE EVERYONE JUST LOVES IT in this country, not realizing we have a bunch of socialist things that they like. So they just pull the racist card or something else

Both sides don't get it.

long as ive lived ive never seen my country so divided on so many issues since he raised his left hand.

[tornadospotter]

I support term limits. can't leave em in charge when they're senile. already told Kit Bond im voting his A** out. and all incumbants as well.

looks like the hope and change crowd has just about had it with Obama.

YouTube - Town Hall Questioner To Obama: 'I'm Exhausted Of Defending You' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHv1ENYAulY)

she voted for the 08 model and now want's a refund
I never voted for or wanted. I rather like the idea of firing them all! Vote for none of the above!
YouTube - Vote None of the Above (Richard Pryor - Brewsters Millions)

[kilobytes]

Well it is mainly because of how magnified everything is these days with the media. Also the people on the right pulled the terrorist, muslim card which is quite ludicrous (and you shouldn't care if he was muslim or not). Also all that Joe the plumber nonsense which I would hardly call a moderate...more like american moderate which is still to the right.

And all that crap about his pastor and blah blah blah. The fact is, the president barely has any power. If you want to blame someone, blame yourself for voting for the people in congress. Everyone is to blame.

The right wing is all for big government with the military, defense, and strict laws.

The left wing is all for big government when they make you depend on them for everything.

Both wings spend lots of money one way or another. Reckless spending has nothing to do with left and right, it has to do with unwise politicians.

Find the center ground and stand there. Go to the grey area. Stop dealing in black and white.

Capitocialism.

Hmmm my new creation :)

We are actually almost there,its just the people in congress, for the past few decades, keep spending too much money

[kcvet]

remains of first politician found

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2010/09/34.jpg

[Chiefster]

I never voted for or wanted. I rather like the idea of firing them all! Vote for none of the above!
YouTube - Vote None of the Above (Richard Pryor - Brewsters Millions) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VQ8pgySec4)

A great big THIS!

[stricken721]

Don't worry guys. I'll run for president.

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2010/09/38.jpg

Looks good, huh?


I know what you're thinking.. yes my head is that big.

[Chiefster]

Don't worry guys. I'll run for president.

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2010/09/38.jpg

Looks good, huh?


I know what you're thinking.. yes my head is that big.

stricken!

stricken!

stricken!....

You have my vote!:D

[stricken721]

stricken!

stricken!

stricken!....

You have my vote!:D


1 vote down.. 50 million to go. :party-smiley-048:

[Chiefster]

1 vote down.. 50 million to go. :party-smiley-048:

Yeah, but I'm a political idiot. :efpge:

[Canada]

Can Canadians vote?

[GlennBree]

me too me too!

[kcvet]

NFL Flyovers


with a message

YouTube - NFL Flyovers

[Hayvern]

NFL Flyovers


with a message



YouTube - NFL Flyovers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc41WrV-qx8)


That one little act of defiance by Obama had very little made of it at the time, who would have thought it would have lead to what we have now?

[Chiefster]

Can Canadians vote?

Why not?

Dead people in Chicago do. :D

[stricken721]

Can Canadians vote?


Why not?

Dead people in Chicago do. :D

...and people that live in Florida have votes that never even get counted! We gotta make up those numbers somehow! :sFl_america2: