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View Full Version : O lineman, or best available at the time?



hermhater
01-15-2008, 01:10 AM
What should we do for the draft?

I have heard Holthus say we probably won't go for a O lineman until the 4th round.

If Long isn't available for our first rounder, do we get another, or just get the best available at any position?

Guru
01-15-2008, 01:27 AM
Both

hermhater
01-15-2008, 01:32 AM
I don't get it?

How do we do that?

You mean trade our 2nd and 3rd rounders for another first rounder?

Or get an O lineman no matter what the first round, then pick best player available in the later rounds?

Guru
01-15-2008, 01:37 AM
Easy, the best available player on the board WILL be an O lineman.

hermhater
01-15-2008, 01:42 AM
So you're saying O lineman for us no matter what?

If we fail to address the O line in FA then I agree.

Otherwise, we should get a CB or someone to plug up our friggin' rush D.

chief31
01-15-2008, 01:45 AM
The only thing I like about the "best player available" concept, is that by taking some high-ranking QB, we may be able to trade him to the team that really wanted to pick him. Basically, trading down.

Guru
01-15-2008, 01:47 AM
So you're saying O lineman for us no matter what?

If we fail to address the O line in FA then I agree.

Otherwise, we should get a CB or someone to plug up our friggin' rush D.

Well, according to Carl and Herm we won't be in the FA market.

Not that I believe that.

hermhater
01-15-2008, 02:00 AM
The only thing I like about the "best player available" concept, is that by taking some high-ranking QB, we may be able to trade him to the team that really wanted to pick him. Basically, trading down.

Trade him for who?

What team has a great LT, and will be willing to trade for a high-ranking (statistically I assume you mean) QB?

hermhater
01-15-2008, 02:01 AM
Well, according to Carl and Herm we won't be in the FA market.

Not that I believe that.

Do we even have the cap room for FA?

How much is a great O lineman going for?

Could we get Faneca for the same price we are paying McIntosh? (can't ever remember how to spell his damn name)

chief31
01-15-2008, 02:10 AM
Trade him for who?

What team has a great LT, and will be willing to trade for a high-ranking (statistically I assume you mean) QB?

Just getting a team that wants that player, to trade their draft pick(s) for him. Basically trading down in the draft.

We take the player that another team was hoping would drop to them, forcing them to deal with us, to get him. "We'll trade you the guy you were hoping to get, for your first and third round picks." Kind of deal.

hermhater
01-15-2008, 02:16 AM
Just getting a team that wants that player, to trade their draft pick(s) for him. Basically trading down in the draft.

We take the player that another team was hoping would drop to them, forcing them to deal with us, to get him. "We'll trade you the guy you were hoping to get, for your first and third round picks." Kind of deal.

Like Cleveland did with Dallas(?) for Quinn last year?

You're still talking about getting O linemen right?

chief31
01-15-2008, 05:46 AM
Like Cleveland did with Dallas(?) for Quinn last year?

You're still talking about getting O linemen right?

Well, more like San Diego did with Eli Manning a few years back. They picked Eli, who had stated that he didn't want to play for them, then made the Giants, who really wanted Eli, work out a deal for him. I'm not sure what the Chrgers got, aside from the Giants' first round pick, still early in the first round, but I know that the Giants were hoping that San Diego would not bother with drafting Eli, because of what Eli had said, so they could draft him themselves.

Once the Chargers drafted Eli, the Giants knew that they had to deal with them. Although I believe that the Chargers had already told the Giants that they were going to do that.

But, the Quinn deal was remotely similar. The Cowboys wound-up with the Browns' first round pick in this years draft, in addition to their second round pick in last years draft. In fact, I believe that they got a third draft pick from them too. But the Cowboys didn't draft Quinn, then deal. They made the deal before they selected.

Guru
01-15-2008, 06:26 AM
Do we even have the cap room for FA?

How much is a great O lineman going for?

Could we get Faneca for the same price we are paying McIntosh? (can't ever remember how to spell his damn name)

I don't know all the details but from what I have heard, we are in great cap shape right now.

AkChief49
01-15-2008, 07:08 PM
I hope we get Mcfadden, which could force J.Jones to give us both his other first round picks!!

Coach
01-15-2008, 10:29 PM
Could we get Faneca for the same price we are paying McIntosh? (can't ever remember how to spell his damn name)

Are you serious? Faneca will get top $ in free agency.

hermhater
01-15-2008, 10:31 PM
Are you serious? Faneca will get top $ in free agency.


What is top money for an O lineman?

Lazeye
01-15-2008, 10:36 PM
O lineman 1st round no matter what.

Lazeye
01-15-2008, 10:40 PM
We have LJ, I dont know what else more to say. It is time to give LJ a line like we gave holmes since we are rebuilding.

rbedgood
01-17-2008, 03:15 AM
What is top money for an O lineman?

NFL Deals are very convaluted to say the least, the signing bonus/base salary computations make a cap number which is the really relevant number. So using that number the top 5 Tackles in 2007 had cap numbers from $7.1 to $8.8 Million...the top 5 guards had numbers from $5.8 to $6.68 Million...Faneca was barely in this group, figure he'll get a contract for around 4 years and $27M, with $8-10 Million up front as a signing bonus.

hermhater
01-17-2008, 03:35 AM
NFL Deals are very convaluted to say the least, the signing bonus/base salary computations make a cap number which is the really relevant number. So using that number the top 5 Tackles in 2007 had cap numbers from $7.1 to $8.8 Million...the top 5 guards had numbers from $5.8 to $6.68 Million...Faneca was barely in this group, figure he'll get a contract for around 4 years and $27M, with $8-10 Million up front as a signing bonus.

So we paid top money for McIntosh?

That was my original thought.

How did that work out, whoever I was asking?

There are so many alter ego's running amok on this site it's hard to remember.

rbedgood
01-17-2008, 03:43 AM
So we paid top money for McIntosh?

That was my original thought.

How did that work out, whoever I was asking?

There are so many alter ego's running amok on this site it's hard to remember.

McIntosh had an original signing bonus of $3M, but a 2007 cap value of $1.5M (signing bonus is spread out over the term of the contract and base salary varies year to year in the contract)

hermhater
01-17-2008, 03:44 AM
McIntosh had an original signing bonus of $3M, but a 2007 cap value of $1.5M (signing bonus is spread out over the term of the contract and base salary varies year to year in the contract)

Top value for OUR line then.

rbedgood
01-17-2008, 04:02 AM
Here is the Chiefs 2007 Payroll with cap values...you can see which contracts are good, bad and ugly

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/teamdetail.aspx?team=16&year=2007

Good:
Croyle QB---$500,000 cap value
Colquitt P---$580,000 cap value
McIntosh T---$1.5M Cap value (low for position)
Hali DE---$1.4M cap value
Page S---$376,000 cap value

Bad:
Bell LB---$4.5M cap value
Law CB---$5M cap value

UGLY
Surtain CB---$9.4M cap value

The guys that I noticed are those with low or no signing bonuses...they can be cut with minimal cap penalties

Patrick Surtain (high salary, but no signing bonus)
Casey Weigman (avg. salary...NO signing bonus)
Eddie Drummond
There are more, but I'm getting tired....


Anyhow the situation is that the Chiefs have considerable cap room, and if they cut Kendrell Bell (as many expect) and a few others they may incur some 2009 cap penalties, but they'll have even more 2008 room. They could make a play for 2-3 good free agents and still sign Jared Allen and with a decent draft who knows?

DrunkHillbilly
01-17-2008, 11:14 AM
I hope we get Mcfadden, which could force J.Jones to give us both his other first round picks!!
McFadden will be gone in the first 4 picks. Likely to the Jets. Jake Long would be the guy we want but I'm not sold on the fact that he will still be there at #5.

rbedgood
01-17-2008, 11:32 AM
McFadden will be gone in the first 4 picks. Likely to the Jets. Jake Long would be the guy we want but I'm not sold on the fact that he will still be there at #5.

If Jake Long doesn't go #2 (Rams) he likely drops to #5.

The Raiders likely go after either DT or DE, the Falcons go QB...

DrunkHillbilly
01-17-2008, 11:34 AM
If Jake Long doesn't go #2 (Rams) he likely drops to #5.

The Raiders likely go after either DT or DE, the Falcons go QB...
Agreed. I have seen several mocks where they have the Rams going after Chris Long. Who knows though. It's a toss up until the name is called.

rbedgood
01-17-2008, 12:05 PM
Agreed. I have seen several mocks where they have the Rams going after Chris Long. Who knows though. It's a toss up until the name is called.

Most of the experts agree Dorsey is likely #1. He isn't a flash in the pan type risk like Bush and short of a major character/injury issue likely won't fall....he also fits Miami's need of a young defender to build around seeing as their top defenders (Thomas and Taylor) are aging quickly.

The #2 pick is much more of a mystery. The only given is that if STL keeps the pick they likely won't take McFadden as they have both Jackson and Leonard at RB. Their defense is in dire need of assistance, and although they have some great linemen, they're aging and had health issues this year. They could go with Long to bolster the Oline, or go with the other Long to bolster the defense. As a curveball, if they aren't thrilled with Bulger after a subpar year they could go QB...they also could be prime candidates to trade down if someone really wants McFadden or Chris/Jake Long.

The #3 or #4 pick being the Raiders leaves some mystery and intrigue, as long as Al Davis is breathing. He can get a liking to a certain player and over-ride all the pundits in his organiization and has done so before. However my guess is they have their QB in place (Russell), plenty of RBs including one for the future (Rhodes, Jordan, Fargas & Michael Bush), a young TE (Miller) and a decent O-line (Fargas looked like a legit RB this year)...I'm guessing they draft defense.

The Falcons (if they draft before the Chiefs) aren't a real concern as they likely take the top QB on the board...although they'd also be candidates to trade down as they have a plethora of needs (QB, O-line, DT, WR, etc.) and could use additional picks. I lean towards them taking QB Matt Ryan or QB Brian Brohm. I don't think they'll take a chance on the lesser developed QB Woodson, even though his upside may be higher, they've had an "upside" QB for the last 5-6 years (Vick)

The Chiefs have to take Jake Long if he is available...if he isn't I'd lean towards trying to trade down 3-4 spots and grab the top CB in the draft, and let Surtain go. Law could be a decent #2 CB for another year. Jenkins out of Ohio State is the top rated prospect, but there are 2-3 I like who may all be available in the 2nd round. McKelvin (Troy), Flowers (VT) and King (Penn State). If you can get these guys in the 2nd round, I'd say you have to look at another need in the 1st round (maybe even trading to around 20 or so in the 1st round and getting 2-3 other picks) and taking Devone Bess (Hawaii) to go along with Bowe and Gonzalez in the air game. Bess runs sharp routes, has great hands and good speed & quickness, and he's got size. Imagine Bowe with more experience in a pro-style system (Hawaii ran the run-shoot offense w/ June Jones)