PDA

View Full Version : Bad move by the front office?



jaytray
03-01-2008, 11:46 PM
I just don't understand this move picking up Williams at all!

Here we have Jared Allen one of the best pass rushers in the NFL and we won't give him the time of day but we go out and throw money at Bell errrrrrrrr Williams.

I understand Donnie Edwards is getting older and probably won't be here much longer. But we have 10 draft picks. Edwards still has some life in him and we gave him this semi big contract last year. So why not draft a LB in the 3rd round and groom him to take Donnies place in a year or 2?? This move makes sense if we plan on releasing Donnie but won't that leave a big cap hit?

I just think this money could have gone to Allen right now and made him happy. I fear losing Allen is a GIANT step backwards for our defense. Plus we need a CB.... OL help DT help ectectect. The only spots i felt good about going into the off season were the LB's.

This just seems like another pointless move by Carl Peterson.

OK I'm done *****ing. Sigh.:fatlock:

royalswin100games
03-01-2008, 11:53 PM
You may be right in your opinion about this guy but I think we should see him play first. Maybe a different team will motivate him. He is coming from a much worse situation in ATL.

I HATE that JA got franchised. It seems that CP just doesn't like the guy. Hopefully this backfires in his face and he eventually loses his job for choices like this.

texaschief
03-01-2008, 11:55 PM
I just don't understand this move picking up Williams at all!

Here we have Jared Allen one of the best pass rushers in the NFL and we won't give him the time of day but we go out and throw money at Bell errrrrrrrr Williams.

I understand Donnie Edwards is getting older and probably won't be here much longer. But we have 10 draft picks. Edwards still has some life in him and we gave him this semi big contract last year. So why not draft a LB in the 3rd round and groom him to take Donnies place in a year or 2?? This move makes sense if we plan on releasing Donnie but won't that leave a big cap hit?

I just think this money could have gone to Allen right now and made him happy. I fear losing Allen is a GIANT step backwards for our defense. Plus we need a CB.... OL help DT help ectectect. The only spots i felt good about going into the off season were the LB's.

This just seems like another pointless move by Carl Peterson.

OK I'm done *****ing. Sigh.:fatlock:

Easy killer. This was a move to replace Harris more than anything. They're probably gonna move Edwards to the middle and put this guy on the outside if/when he signs.

royalswin100games
03-01-2008, 11:57 PM
Easy killer. This was a move to replace Harris more than anything. They're probably gonna move Edwards to the middle and put this guy on the outside if/when he signs.

I hope you're right. IMO, Donnie is a better fit in the middle.

jaytray
03-01-2008, 11:57 PM
I'm gonna give this guy a chance for sure. But for the first time I'm reallllllly thinking it's time for a new GM. This s*** is just getting old. I've been re living the same off season for 19 years now. urg.

DMN
03-02-2008, 12:06 AM
I definately like the idea of moving edwards to the middle. not that harris was bad. he just had to perform next to DJ and Edwards all year. edwards is just so smart.

in my opinion the allen situation will happen once the chiefs have to. right now he is on the back burner.

But one thing that I worry about is our lack of attempt at free agency. I know that i dont know **** about building a team. But I do know we have more needs than the draft can realistically solve. I know we are rebuilding but at least make an attempt to be competitive.

jaytray
03-02-2008, 12:10 AM
Agreed. We should have spent this money on a solid OL player and not a LB. If we continue to add players from the FA market over the next few days I can understand this move a whole lot better. But I have a feeling we won't see much more movement from CP.

Canada
03-02-2008, 12:12 AM
I think we need to send all the cap money and draft picks on offense and then cross our fingers and see if the defense can hold!! :sign0098:

texaschief
03-02-2008, 12:13 AM
i'm curious what they saw in Williams that made them think he was worth starting over the guys we already have. i'm looking at the numbers from Williams, Harris and Edwards.

Harris- 116TKLS 1.5SCK 1FF 1INT
Edwards- 104TKLS 2.0SCK 1FF 1INT
Williams- 78TKLS 0.0SCK 0FF 2INT

the more i look at this, the more i think this signing was more for backup than anything. I think we need to be comparing this guy to the LBs we lost. surely Williams will be an upgrade over Bell and Fox.

DMN
03-02-2008, 12:22 AM
What do you guys think about the WR spot? Webb surely isnt a #2. And though Tony G is an obvious weapon. Do you think that we need a legit second to avoid the double coverage of Bowe all season.

With our QB situation it seems we need all the options we can get to make a play.

Plus helping out our run game by proving we arent one dimentional by being able to pass. I am sure LJ would love to not look 8 defenders in the face at the start of every play.

tammietailgator
03-02-2008, 12:58 AM
In my opinion, we can MAKE a good receiver out of what we have. That is not difficult or shouldn't be - we need to focus elsewhere and not waste our picks as we have done in the past.

texaschief
03-02-2008, 01:11 AM
I'm also curious to know which over payed players that were in this year's Free Agent class you guys would like to have seen the Chiefs to go after.

Faneca will officially be the highest payed OL in the NFL. A player that old should not be included on THIS team for THAT kind of money.

So, who else? Lilja didn't even hit the market. Neither did Starks or Jake Scott, Floyd Womack

32 yr OT Flozell Adams? no
36 yr C Ethan Albright? hell no
36 yr G Larry Allen? hell no
30 yr OT Tom Ashworth? no
36 yr G Ruben Brown? no
26 yr C Jeff Faine? Would've been nice
30 yr P.J. Alexander (former Bronco)


There weren't too many GOOD Olinemen on the market to begin with and then the ones who were, most decided to re-up with their old team. Jeff Faine is the only guy out there who i saw that couldn've been a big signee for the Chiefs' Oline. The Chiefs weren't the only team to miss out on Faine btw.

There are STILL a few servicable Olinemen out there, but if they were linemen we could build our line around, their old team probably wouldn't have let them go.

People are acting like there is so much out there to go after and i think it's a vast overreaction.

texaschief
03-02-2008, 01:13 AM
I think Webb could be a solid #2. Sippio could be a good #3 as well. Webb is a big, fast guy. I think he just needs the opportunity.

hermhater
03-02-2008, 01:41 AM
It just seems like we should have spent the money already on FA O players.

If it doesn't get spent, why didn't they just give JA the contract he wanted?

Three7s
03-02-2008, 01:47 AM
i'm curious what they saw in Williams that made them think he was worth starting over the guys we already have. i'm looking at the numbers from Williams, Harris and Edwards.

Harris- 116TKLS 1.5SCK 1FF 1INT
Edwards- 104TKLS 2.0SCK 1FF 1INT
Williams- 78TKLS 0.0SCK 0FF 2INT

the more i look at this, the more i think this signing was more for backup than anything. I think we need to be comparing this guy to the LBs we lost. surely Williams will be an upgrade over Bell and Fox.
Judging by those stats last year, I'd say Williams is better at coverage than anything else. I remember that our LBs got burned a few times on pass plays, maybe that's what they want him for.

hermhater
03-02-2008, 02:11 AM
Judging by those stats last year, I'd say Williams is better at coverage than anything else. I remember that our LBs got burned a few times on pass plays, maybe that's what they want him for.

Agreed!

Hope he can double as a corner!

jaytray
03-02-2008, 05:39 AM
I'm also curious to know which over payed players that were in this year's Free Agent class you guys would like to have seen the Chiefs to go after.

Faneca will officially be the highest payed OL in the NFL. A player that old should not be included on THIS team for THAT kind of money.

So, who else? Lilja didn't even hit the market. Neither did Starks or Jake Scott, Floyd Womack

32 yr OT Flozell Adams? no
36 yr C Ethan Albright? hell no
36 yr G Larry Allen? hell no
30 yr OT Tom Ashworth? no
36 yr G Ruben Brown? no
26 yr C Jeff Faine? Would've been nice
30 yr P.J. Alexander (former Bronco)


There weren't too many GOOD Olinemen on the market to begin with and then the ones who were, most decided to re-up with their old team. Jeff Faine is the only guy out there who i saw that couldn've been a big signee for the Chiefs' Oline. The Chiefs weren't the only team to miss out on Faine btw.

There are STILL a few servicable Olinemen out there, but if they were linemen we could build our line around, their old team probably wouldn't have let them go.

People are acting like there is so much out there to go after and i think it's a vast overreaction.

"But if they were linemen we could build our line around. their old team probably wouldn't have let them go"

Could we have built our D around samuel? Yes. But NE let him go. Could we have built our OL with a 26 yr old Jeff Faine or the 26 yr old Justin Smiley?? Absolutely we could. But those guys are gone because we didnt jump on the ball. I do agree there are still some names out there in the OL FA that would fit our team.. My argument is this. Every year we ***** and moan about the weakness of our team and every year Carl doesn't make that big move to improve the team. If you remember when our offense was a joke and we went out and got vermil. What big name did we get? Can you name one? I can't. We took a chance on a busted up RB and a busted up QB. Lucky for us it worked out (for a few years) But our D was a piece of **** and we never did anything to fix it while we had a great offense. So I guess it's back to the drawing board again huh?

When do the royals start losing again? I can't wait:)

Canada
03-02-2008, 06:57 AM
uhhh.....Willie Roaf?

tornadospotter
03-02-2008, 07:42 AM
uhhh.....Willie Roaf?
Who!!! :D

wolfpack
03-02-2008, 10:36 AM
the chiefs are sure betting alot that are up and coming young lineman will pan out. maybe they should go and try to sign Scott for the guard opening. aleast get somemore experience on the line.

leaves
03-02-2008, 10:57 AM
I feel like the defense will be adequate no matter the works now that we have only-defensive herm edwards.

Nonetheless, this free agency is already KILLING me. I read somewhere that we didnt want any old vets.. that makes some sense, BUT we can't get a consistent year without some.
CB's gone, O-line gone, WR's running out (but dont worry, we'll ignore them too). Dunn and Wilson are on market.. so were really favoring T.Zales here cuz he's upcoming. Man I really hope the draft is magic, cuz this is ridiculous.

tornadospotter
03-02-2008, 11:30 AM
the chiefs are sure betting alot that are up and coming young lineman will pan out. maybe they should go and try to sign Scott for the guard opening. aleast get somemore experience on the line.
I am thinking that if herm and queen cp want to get younger, I say what the he77, build the o-line through the draft, but dammit sign Jared Allen to a good deal. Scew what we could get if we trade him! I would rather trade LJ, than let JA get away. If Jared is not happy being a Chief! Make him a fair offer, if he is still not happy! Well then he is not a true Chief!

DrunkHillbilly
03-02-2008, 12:58 PM
What do you guys think about the WR spot? Webb surely isnt a #2. And though Tony G is an obvious weapon. Do you think that we need a legit second to avoid the double coverage of Bowe all season.

With our QB situation it seems we need all the options we can get to make a play.

Plus helping out our run game by proving we arent one dimentional by being able to pass. I am sure LJ would love to not look 8 defenders in the face at the start of every play.
I've thought we needed another WR for two years. Kennison was old last year. What we have will not be sufficient again this year.

texaschief
03-02-2008, 01:28 PM
"But if they were linemen we could build our line around. their old team probably wouldn't have let them go"

Could we have built our D around samuel? Yes. But NE let him go. Could we have built our OL with a 26 yr old Jeff Faine or the 26 yr old Justin Smiley?? Absolutely we could. But those guys are gone because we didnt jump on the ball. I do agree there are still some names out there in the OL FA that would fit our team.. My argument is this. Every year we ***** and moan about the weakness of our team and every year Carl doesn't make that big move to improve the team. If you remember when our offense was a joke and we went out and got vermil. What big name did we get? Can you name one? I can't. We took a chance on a busted up RB and a busted up QB. Lucky for us it worked out (for a few years) But our D was a piece of **** and we never did anything to fix it while we had a great offense. So I guess it's back to the drawing board again huh?

When do the royals start losing again? I can't wait:)

First off, just because we want Samuel or Faine or Smiley doesn't mean they want to be here. Obviously Asante wanted to be in Philly and Faine didn't want to come here. Don't forget, 30 other teams missed out on those two players as well. But you're talking about 3 guys. ONLY 3.

I agree, it would've been nice to bring those guys in. In fact, i bet the organization tried hard to bring those guys in....as did several others around the league.

As for Vermeil, you're right, we didn't bring in too many big names other than Roaf, which was previously mentioned....which means what?....we built that offense primarily thru the draft. Most of the O-line was drafted here, as was LJ and a couple of the WRs.

I had been following Priest since his days at Texas and believe me, he was no "busted up" RB. He had 2 small injuries. The first, he missed some time and while he was out, some guy named Ricky Williams took his spot in the line up at Texas. The second injury came before he lost his job to some other guy named Jamal Lewis. Again, both were small injuries, but he just happened to have a pair of stud RBs behind him when they occured.

Trent Green wasn't "busted up" either. He had one injury and Kurt Warner decided to become the oldest phenom is league history.

jaytray
03-02-2008, 02:37 PM
Green was hurt when he signed with the chiefs remember? Remember how after the first year he was here and threw like 26 INT's vermeil openly said his knee was not 100% at the time?
and no we didn't build the OL through the draft when dick was here. Roaf, Wiegmann, Waters, Sampson, Black, Welbourn all FA. We drafted Tait but couldn't keep him because Carl pissed the guy off. Oh and doesn't the Allen Carl situation look a lot like the Tait Carl thing?

Name a WR Carl and Dick drafted that is still here... Please. Or even a WR that put up.... 800 + yards.
LJ was the best move they made while those 2 were together. AND Dick hated the fact we drafted LJ. I think he wanted to draft Ryan Sims JR.

I'm not saying we should have signed Samuel or any other big name free agent that's not my point. My point is we are not looking into the positions we need the most and OL is the most important area right now.
I know it's still early and I have my fingers crossed.But judging from past history with Carl.... It's going to be another long off season.

hermhater
03-02-2008, 02:47 PM
A whole lot of great analysis here guys!

Keep it up and maybe Carl will listen!

:biggrin:

Coach
03-02-2008, 02:56 PM
in my opinion the allen situation will happen once the chiefs have to. right now he is on the back burner.


I agree. Carl will see how much money is left after they sign their draft picks. If there is money, they will sign JA. If not, they have him franchised anyway.


What do you guys think about the WR spot? Webb surely isnt a #2. And though Tony G is an obvious weapon. Do you think that we need a legit second to avoid the double coverage of Bowe all season.

I think we still need a #2 WR. I know Javon Walker hit the market this week. Do you guys think there is any chance that we take a stab at him? D.Bowe/J.Walker/T.Gonzo. Now that's what I'm talking about!! You give the Qb some protection with that WR corp and suddenly Brodie looks decent. Especially considering the defense still has to stay honest to the run because of LJ. I think they should look at Walker.

Coach
03-02-2008, 02:58 PM
FYI, Carl has already said publicly that the Chiefs would not be active in the free agency market. The increase in cap means that many free agents will be getting much bigger deals than they deserve. The Chiefs are focused on drafting 10 people and getting them signed.

jaytray
03-02-2008, 03:03 PM
"I agree. Carl will see how much money is left after they sign their draft picks. If there is money, they will sign JA. If not, they have him franchised anyway."

You do understand that if we let Allen play 2008 under the franchise tag he will not return right? Then where are we? Back to the drawing board let again! If we don't re sign Allen it will be one of the biggest mistakes in CP term here.

I love the idea of walker coming in! I think it's a great fit on the other side of bowe.

If this happens... Or we do sign a solid number 2 guy then how do we protect Croyle?

Coach
03-02-2008, 03:13 PM
You do understand that if we let Allen play 2008 under the franchise tag he will not return right? Then where are we? Back to the drawing board let again! If we don't re sign Allen it will be one of the biggest mistakes in CP term here.

Not so fast. Briggs was franchised by the Bears last year. If you notice on the front page of our website, http://www.ChiefsCrowd.com , Briggs just signed a 6-yr deal.

I think the JA franchising tag deal will go down just like the LJ thing did last year. After the Chiefs got D Bowe signed, then they focused their efforts on getting LJ signed. Same thing will happen this year with JA after they get J. Long signed(fingers crossed).

hermhater
03-02-2008, 03:16 PM
I agree. Carl will see how much money is left after they sign their draft picks. If there is money, they will sign JA. If not, they have him franchised anyway.



I think we still need a #2 WR. I know Javon Walker hit the market this week. Do you guys think there is any chance that we take a stab at him? D.Bowe/J.Walker/T.Gonzo. Now that's what I'm talking about!! You give the Qb some protection with that WR corp and suddenly Brodie looks decent. Especially considering the defense still has to stay honest to the run because of LJ. I think they should look at Walker.

Plus he won't be burning us when we play in Denver!

:yahoo:

leaves
03-02-2008, 03:16 PM
I'm not convinced that Allen will leave w/out immediate money. I'm sure they'll give him his cash when its crunch time. Javon would be alright, but I'm thinkin he's goin to dallas (heard some talk). There's a lot of uncertains (WRs, OL, FB, even QB really), so this draft'll be exciting.

It's just gonna end up making or breaking our team.

jaytray
03-02-2008, 03:16 PM
Not so fast. Briggs was franchised by the Bears last year. If you notice on the front page of our website, http://www.ChiefsCrowd.com , Briggs just signed a 6-yr deal.

I think the JA franchising tag deal will go down just like the LJ thing did last year. After the Chiefs got D Bowe signed, then they focused their efforts on getting LJ signed. Same thing will happen this year with JA after they get J. Long signed(fingers crossed).


Maybe... I've thought of that as well. But LJ wasn't openly saying he wanted a trade or that he wouldn't re sigh if he played under the franchise tag.

I'm just worried that Carl will screw this thing up with Allen. I think he's top 3 DE in the league right now and he's still young. SO PAY THE MAN!

But I do agree it could turn out like the LJ for sure.

Loooooooooooord please send us Jake Long!

Coach
03-02-2008, 03:26 PM
Javon would be alright, but I'm thinkin he's goin to dallas (heard some talk).

I think the only way Javon would agree to be traded to the Chiefs anemic passing attack is if he got decent money. That's probably not gonna happen with Carl holding the purse strings considering Javon's injury history.

jaytray
03-02-2008, 05:51 PM
I think the only way Javon would agree to be traded to the Chiefs anemic passing attack is if he got decent money. That's probably not gonna happen with Carl holding the purse strings considering Javon's injury history.

I agree. A: We have a horrible passing attack on paper right now. B: Carl won't pay Walker enough money to come here.

Brandon Lloyd is on the market. He's had some issues with work ethic and stuff but I think it would be a good fit. Born and raised in KC. Great speed and good hands.

Any thoughts?

Coach
03-02-2008, 11:08 PM
I agree. A: We have a horrible passing attack on paper right now. B: Carl won't pay Walker enough money to come here.

Brandon Lloyd is on the market. He's had some issues with work ethic and stuff but I think it would be a good fit. Born and raised in KC. Great speed and good hands.

Any thoughts?

Don't know much about him. Didn't he play in SF? I seem to remeber a couple of good games. But SF's aerial attack wasn't much better than the Chiefs.

Coach
03-02-2008, 11:10 PM
check that. after looking it up, SF was the worst. But llod has spent the last 2 seasons in Washington.

http://www.nfl.com/players/brandonlloyd/profile?id=LLO154116

royalswin100games
03-02-2008, 11:13 PM
check that. after looking it up, SF was the worst. But llod has spent the last 2 seasons in Washington.

http://www.nfl.com/players/brandonlloyd/profile?id=LLO154116

I don't think the 'skins liked him much. He was hyped up after leaving SF.

hermhater
03-02-2008, 11:17 PM
Anyone who grew up in KC is gonna be a good football player!

BTW how much are we gonna have to pay all these rookies we draft?

Are we even gonna be able to afford anyone else after all these draft picks?

Coach
03-02-2008, 11:22 PM
Anyone who grew up in KC is gonna be a good football player!

BTW how much are we gonna have to pay all these rookies we draft?

Are we even gonna be able to afford anyone else after all these draft picks?

Now you are thinking like Carl.:sign0153: :drunkhb:

tammietailgator
03-02-2008, 11:34 PM
I was thinking that earlier - don't they only have $116 mil?

texaschief
03-02-2008, 11:48 PM
and no we didn't build the OL through the draft when dick was here. Roaf, Wiegmann, Waters, Sampson, Black, Welbourn all FA. We drafted Tait but couldn't keep him because Carl pissed the guy off. Oh and doesn't the Allen Carl situation look a lot like the Tait Carl thing?

Name a WR Carl and Dick drafted that is still here... Please. Or even a WR that put up.... 800 + yards.
LJ was the best move they made while those 2 were together. AND Dick hated the fact we drafted LJ. I think he wanted to draft Ryan Sims JR.



Shields, Tait, Gonzales were all drafted here. True, Waters wasn't drafted, but we signed him after the draft...so he might as well have been drafted by us. I've never said Vermeil drafted well. I'd say the two coaches before him did a better job and were the ones who set up Vermeil with that offense. The WR we DID draft was sent away for Willie Roaf...perhaps you heard of him...Joe Horn? Dante Hall wasn't the worst reciever in the world either. Seems like people on this board are still wanting him around.

hermhater
03-03-2008, 12:04 AM
Now you are thinking like Carl.:sign0153: :drunkhb:

How is that???

:sign0153: :bananen_smilies046:


I was thinking that earlier - don't they only have $116 mil?


That is a good question!

Mods get on it!

:bananen_smilies046:

jaytray
03-03-2008, 12:19 AM
Shields, Tait, Gonzales were all drafted here. True, Waters wasn't drafted, but we signed him after the draft...so he might as well have been drafted by us. I've never said Vermeil drafted well. I'd say the two coaches before him did a better job and were the ones who set up Vermeil with that offense. The WR we DID draft was sent away for Willie Roaf...perhaps you heard of him...Joe Horn? Dante Hall wasn't the worst reciever in the world either. Seems like people on this board are still wanting him around.

You are proving my point for me... Not only did we draft Tait but we let him go after only a few years. Not only did we draft Horn but we traded him because for some odd reason we saw zero value in him.

So lets recap... We had an all pro OL but we let him go. We had an all pro WR but we traded him. We HAVE a all pro DE... Will we let him go?

We drafted all 3 of those guys but it looks like we don't get to see the better years of any of them because we either don't know talent when we see it or we just like to stack other teams with good players.


Marty and Carl always had it out about draft picks. They rarely saw eye to eye on any player. But the reason we had such good teams was because Marty was able to get his guys. From what it sounds like Carl is letting Herm get his guys as well. But we just don't know anything about "his guys" Right now. So yeah maybe we are freaking out a little bit but we kind of have a good excuses to do so... I mean we re built with vermeil which got us nothing but heartache. Now we are re building with Herm.

Hopefully this whole thing gets worked out. Sigh.

*Edit* Like I said before. Name a WR over the past 10 years who put up 800+ yards for the cheifs. Not someone we got from FA but someone we drafted. Bowe did it this year. Horn never did I don't think. But he sure as hell did after we traded him. Sigh Sigh.

hermhater
03-03-2008, 12:31 AM
I would buy tickets to watch this fight!

Sweet!

:biggrin:

texaschief
03-03-2008, 12:59 AM
You are proving my point for me... Not only did we draft Tait but we let him go after only a few years. Not only did we draft Horn but we traded him because for some odd reason we saw zero value in him.

So lets recap... We had an all pro OL but we let him go. We had an all pro WR but we traded him. We HAVE a all pro DE... Will we let him go?

We drafted all 3 of those guys but it looks like we don't get to see the better years of any of them because we either don't know talent when we see it or we just like to stack other teams with good players.


Marty and Carl always had it out about draft picks. They rarely saw eye to eye on any player. But the reason we had such good teams was because Marty was able to get his guys. From what it sounds like Carl is letting Herm get his guys as well. But we just don't know anything about "his guys" Right now. So yeah maybe we are freaking out a little bit but we kind of have a good excuses to do so... I mean we re built with vermeil which got us nothing but heartache. Now we are re building with Herm.

Hopefully this whole thing gets worked out. Sigh.

*Edit* Like I said before. Name a WR over the past 10 years who put up 800+ yards for the cheifs. Not someone we got from FA but someone we drafted. Bowe did it this year. Horn never did I don't think. But he sure as hell did after we traded him. Sigh Sigh.

Do you really think we have the kind of offense we had without Roaf? The Horn for Roaf deal was probably the best deal made while Dick was here. There is no way Horn contributes as much as Roaf does over the same time period.

Trent Green had great years with plenty of yardage WITHOUT any of those WRs you say we needed. Who needs major WRs when you have a TE like Gonzo? There's only so many passes you're going to throw during a season. It's not like that lack of a 800+ yard reciever hurt the Chiefs' offense. They were among the best in the league for the most of this decade.

The lack of O-line talent didn't rest with DV though. You're new here, but i've said repeatedly that there are a few positions on a football team that are the GM's responsibility; the O-line and CB's are not to EVER get old without someone waiting in the wings to take over. Carl took his eye off the ball on this one and we're now paying the price.

Chiefster
03-03-2008, 01:24 AM
I just don't understand this move picking up Williams at all!

Here we have Jared Allen one of the best pass rushers in the NFL and we won't give him the time of day but we go out and throw money at Bell errrrrrrrr Williams.

I understand Donnie Edwards is getting older and probably won't be here much longer. But we have 10 draft picks. Edwards still has some life in him and we gave him this semi big contract last year. So why not draft a LB in the 3rd round and groom him to take Donnies place in a year or 2?? This move makes sense if we plan on releasing Donnie but won't that leave a big cap hit?

I just think this money could have gone to Allen right now and made him happy. I fear losing Allen is a GIANT step backwards for our defense. Plus we need a CB.... OL help DT help ectectect. The only spots i felt good about going into the off season were the LB's.

This just seems like another pointless move by Carl Peterson.

OK I'm done *****ing. Sigh.:fatlock:

Have you learned nothing of CP in his last 18 years with the organization?

hermhater
03-03-2008, 01:30 AM
I quit *****ing about Carl 5 years ago.

You should to.

Chiefster
03-03-2008, 01:32 AM
I quit *****ing about Carl 5 years ago.

You should to.

It does no good; Carl's a idiot.

hermhater
03-03-2008, 03:41 AM
I meant you should "also".

jaytray
03-03-2008, 04:32 AM
Do you really think we have the kind of offense we had without Roaf? The Horn for Roaf deal was probably the best deal made while Dick was here. There is no way Horn contributes as much as Roaf does over the same time period.

Trent Green had great years with plenty of yardage WITHOUT any of those WRs you say we needed. Who needs major WRs when you have a TE like Gonzo? There's only so many passes you're going to throw during a season. It's not like that lack of a 800+ yard reciever hurt the Chiefs' offense. They were among the best in the league for the most of this decade.

The lack of O-line talent didn't rest with DV though. You're new here, but i've said repeatedly that there are a few positions on a football team that are the GM's responsibility; the O-line and CB's are not to EVER get old without someone waiting in the wings to take over. Carl took his eye off the ball on this one and we're now paying the price.

I don't think you understand my point.

I bring up the Horn deal because you pointed out that we once had a good WR that we drafted and that we also built our OL from the draft. Well we traded that WR of Roaf which was a great move of course.

We didn't build our OL through the draft. We haven't built our WR... CB... QB...DT or OL From the draft. So why is this any different with herm?

Yeah green put up great numbers while he was here. But does anyone remember the Johnny Morton 3rd down drop on the 4 yard line a few years back in the playoffs vs the colts? I do. I know if Morton makes that catch then Holmes puts it in the end zone and it's a different ball game since.

How about all those other 3rd down drops eddie has made? It's amazing the numbers TG has put up over the years without any WR to his right or left.

And yes not having a "clutch" WR did hurt our team. If you think otherwise then i don't really know what to tell you.

chief31
03-03-2008, 04:40 AM
"I agree. Carl will see how much money is left after they sign their draft picks. If there is money, they will sign JA. If not, they have him franchised anyway."

You do understand that if we let Allen play 2008 under the franchise tag he will not return right? Then where are we? Back to the drawing board let again! If we don't re sign Allen it will be one of the biggest mistakes in CP term here.

I love the idea of walker coming in! I think it's a great fit on the other side of bowe.

If this happens... Or we do sign a solid number 2 guy then how do we protect Croyle?

A.) We can still franchise J.A. again next year. (Much rather not, but...)

B.) I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a quality no.2 WR brought in, but let's not forget that we do indeed have a second recieving threat. His name is Bowe. Our no.1 recieving threat is future HOFer Tony Gonzales.


I agree. A: We have a horrible passing attack on paper right now. B: Carl won't pay Walker enough money to come here.

Brandon Lloyd is on the market. He's had some issues with work ethic and stuff but I think it would be a good fit. Born and raised in KC. Great speed and good hands.

Any thoughts?

Brandon wa an Illini. I like him. I also think we might be able to get a bargain for him.


Shields, Tait, Gonzales were all drafted here. True, Waters wasn't drafted, but we signed him after the draft...so he might as well have been drafted by us. I've never said Vermeil drafted well. I'd say the two coaches before him did a better job and were the ones who set up Vermeil with that offense. The WR we DID draft was sent away for Willie Roaf...perhaps you heard of him...Joe Horn? Dante Hall wasn't the worst reciever in the world either. Seems like people on this board are still wanting him around.

I would gladly give you two Joe Horns for one Willie Roaf, any day of the week.

Although, Vermiel made a career of making great offenses wherever he went. But if you want to credit the offensive masterminding of Gunther and Marty, then feel free. :D

I say Vermiel was able to use a couple of the tools that were already here to create the offense. But...Trent Green, Jonnie Morton, Priest Holmes, Eddie Kennison, Willie Roaf...

texaschief
03-03-2008, 11:23 AM
A.) We can still franchise J.A. again next year. (Much rather not, but...)

B.) I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a quality no.2 WR brought in, but let's not forget that we do indeed have a second recieving threat. His name is Bowe. Our no.1 recieving threat is future HOFer Tony Gonzales.



Brandon wa an Illini. I like him. I also think we might be able to get a bargain for him.



I would gladly give you two Joe Horns for one Willie Roaf, any day of the week.

Although, Vermiel made a career of making great offenses wherever he went. But if you want to credit the offensive masterminding of Gunther and Marty, then feel free. :D

I say Vermiel was able to use a couple of the tools that were already here to create the offense. But...Trent Green, Jonnie Morton, Priest Holmes, Eddie Kennison, Willie Roaf...

Well, let's look at the record...over the past 2 decades, Marty built the Chiefs offense that Vermiel took advantage of. sure he added a couple FA's, but the foundatioons was layed by the drafting of Marty. Then he went and created the San Deigo offensive machine....so yeah, i would credit Marty for give Dick a great foundation to start from.

Right now, we don't even have a foundation from which we could add FAs to help build into a great offense. This is the season which we need to build the foundation thru the draft and follow up next year with a few FAs and another solid draft.

Signing big FAs right now would be like putting a bandaid on a hemorage.

DrunkHillbilly
03-03-2008, 11:32 AM
Well, let's look at the record...over the past 2 decades, Marty built the Chiefs offense that Vermiel took advantage of. sure he added a couple FA's, but the foundatioons was layed by the drafting of Marty. Then he went and created the San Deigo offensive machine....so yeah, i would credit Marty for give Dick a great foundation to start from.

Right now, we don't even have a foundation from which we could add FAs to help build into a great offense. This is the season which we need to build the foundation thru the draft and follow up next year with a few FAs and another solid draft.

Signing big FAs right now would be like putting a bandaid on a hemorage.
Not if the FA aquisitions were the right one's! You act like nothing good comes from free agency.

m0ef0e
03-03-2008, 11:56 AM
This is an awesome thread, guys. All of you put stuff out there that I felt really nailed it.

It is frustrating to wait around to see what will get done at the positions where help is obviously needed the most while we sign players to one of the most talented position-corps we have left on this team.

It's still too early to say that things are being ignored, though. Hopefully we have a miracle draft and can fill some holes afterward.

I saw a few ideas I liked at the receiver position. Walker could be good but I would like to get the home-town boy from Blue Springs-- Brandon Lloyd. I love the idea myself and think he could be a really good under-the-radar type acquisition for the Chiefs.

DrunkHillbilly
03-03-2008, 12:06 PM
This is an awesome thread, guys. All of you put stuff out there that I felt really nailed it.

It is frustrating to wait around to see what will get done at the positions where help is obviously needed the most while we sign players to one of the most talented position-corps we have left on this team.

It's still too early to say that things are being ignored, though. Hopefully we have a miracle draft and can fill some holes afterward.

I saw a few ideas I liked at the receiver position. Walker could be good but I would like to get the home-town boy from Blue Springs-- Brandon Lloyd. I love the idea myself and think he could be a really good under-the-radar type acquisition for the Chiefs.
Man, I would have totally agreed about Lloyd last season but I just don't know what to think about him now after the terrible season he had last year. As I said before though, I think it's a position that has needed to addressed for a few years now. TG is a staple but Bowe isn't a saviour. He will need help on the opposite side at some point and I don't think the guys we have now are worthy ofthat need. We need someone who can stretch the field. Teams are going to start to key on TG on the short routes over the middle I'm afraid.

texaschief
03-03-2008, 01:21 PM
Not if the FA aquisitions were the right one's! You act like nothing good comes from free agency.

no....I just don't think when you're trying to rebuild the entire offense, you should start with 30+ year old cast-offs from around the league. Free agents make impacts on teams that are contenders or close to contending....we're not even close to being close to contending.

DrunkHillbilly
03-03-2008, 01:37 PM
no....I just don't think when you're trying to rebuild the entire offense, you should start with 30+ year old cast-offs from around the league. Free agents make impacts on teams that are contenders or close to contending....we're not even close to being close to contending.
I agree for the most part but you can't build an entire team through the draft either! You have to have some veteran leadership that has actually been productive in the league. The few veterans we are going to field have done nothing for the most part! We might have the youngest team in the league this season. Yet another reason I believe it will be "another" rebuilding year!

texaschief
03-03-2008, 02:03 PM
I agree for the most part but you can't build an entire team through the draft either! You have to have some veteran leadership that has actually been productive in the league. The few veterans we are going to field have done nothing for the most part! We might have the youngest team in the league this season. Yet another reason I believe it will be "another" rebuilding year!

Who out there would be more productive than the guys we have? The entire O-line pool out there is full of Jordan Blacks....that's it. There is plenty of Vet leadership on this team already. Our LB corp is full of vets and no one else should really be talking on defense other than the LBs anyway.

Our offense COULD be young this year, but Huard is still one the team as is Gonzo and Waters...how much more leadership do you need on this team?

royalswin100games
03-03-2008, 02:12 PM
Who out there would be more productive than the guys we have? The entire O-line pool out there is full of Jordan Blacks....that's it. There is plenty of Vet leadership on this team already. Our LB corp is full of vets and no one else should really be talking on defense other than the LBs anyway.

Our offense COULD be young this year, but Huard is still one the team as is Gonzo and Waters...how much more leadership do you need on this team?

How deep have Huard, Gonzo, and Waters gone into the playoffs? Sure, they may be good as far as veteran leadership goes but isn't the whole reason for putting a team on the field is to get to the playoffs and maybe win a super bowl? Of course, Carl and Herm may not think so. I agree that we should concentrate our efforts on the draft but maybe getting a player that has had playoff experience will make everyone else on the team hungry for it. Maybe they'll all play that much harder. I think as fans we're getting screwed here. How much longer do I have to wait to see us at least win a playoff game?

DrunkHillbilly
03-03-2008, 02:20 PM
Who out there would be more productive than the guys we have? The entire O-line pool out there is full of Jordan Blacks....that's it. There is plenty of Vet leadership on this team already. Our LB corp is full of vets and no one else should really be talking on defense other than the LBs anyway.

Our offense COULD be young this year, but Huard is still one the team as is Gonzo and Waters...how much more leadership do you need on this team?
My post said veterans that have been productive! I guess I was speaking more about the offense than anything. Gonzo is the only productive one you mentioned! The other two......answer it yourself! Even Gonzo hasn't been anywhere! Like Royals said, playoff experience would be a plus! Most of our team has NO idea of what it means to win. If someone who has been there before can bring a little input to the team, it can only be a good thing! So to your question about how much more leadership........ A LOT!!!!!

Our offense will definetly be young and inexperienced this season unless something changes as far as free agency goes.

texaschief
03-03-2008, 02:58 PM
My post said veterans that have been productive! I guess I was speaking more about the offense than anything. Gonzo is the only productive one you mentioned! The other two......answer it yourself! Even Gonzo hasn't been anywhere! Like Royals said, playoff experience would be a plus! Most of our team has NO idea of what it means to win. If someone who has been there before can bring a little input to the team, it can only be a good thing! So to your question about how much more leadership........ A LOT!!!!!

Our offense will definetly be young and inexperienced this season unless something changes as far as free agency goes.

Are you kidding me? Huard took our team to the playoffs and Waters has made Pro Bowls...what is productive in your mind?

texaschief
03-03-2008, 02:59 PM
hell, who do you see in this Free Agent pool that would be more productive than Waters or Gonzo?

royalswin100games
03-03-2008, 03:00 PM
Are you kidding me? Huard took our team to the playoffs and Waters has made Pro Bowls...what is productive in your mind?

What did Waters do this season? Waters was a beneficiary of Roaf and Shields. That's why he has pro bowl appearances, IMO. Hopefully, he's a good center.

texaschief
03-03-2008, 03:02 PM
What did Waters do this season? Waters was a beneficiary of Roaf and Shields. That's why he has pro bowl appearances, IMO. Hopefully, he's a good center.

wow. i don't know what to say to that.

hermhater
03-03-2008, 03:05 PM
Are you kidding me? Huard took our team to the playoffs and Waters has made Pro Bowls...what is productive in your mind?

How about winning a playoff game?

And with that I'm off to work!

Play nice now!

:bananen_smilies046:

royalswin100games
03-03-2008, 03:06 PM
wow. i don't know what to say to that.

You've said in the past he's a good guy. I won't argue that fact. IMO, he's overrated. I think his pro bowls were a product of having two HOF around him.

DMN
03-03-2008, 03:24 PM
I dont think that Waters is overrated at all. The focus on the O line is building balance.... signing one pro bowler will not solve our problems. It will help... but a chain is as strong as its weakest link. and with defenses adjusting to blow that weak spot up Brodie will be throwing on the run way more than we can afford. It will be a sink or swim season for a group of o line players that the chiefs think MAY have potential, and then they will build from there. I think that we are going to see a lot more 2 TE sets this season, and I think that we will go after a TE in the draft. I am anxious to see how C. Gailey handles the few strengths that this offence has.

royalswin100games
03-03-2008, 03:32 PM
I dont think that Waters is overrated at all. The focus on the O line is building balance.... signing one pro bowler will not solve our problems. It will help... but a chain is as strong as its weakest link. and with defenses adjusting to blow that weak spot up Brodie will be throwing on the run way more than we can afford. It will be a sink or swim season for a group of o line players that the chiefs think MAY have potential, and then they will build from there. I think that we are going to see a lot more 2 TE sets this season, and I think that we will go after a TE in the draft. I am anxious to see how C. Gailey handles the few strengths that this offence has.

That's why I think his accolades are a product of the people he had around him. I don't think he's a bad player. I'm glad we didn't lose him with this house cleaning. I just think he's not as good as people think. I hope he goes in and is a pro bowl center this year if that is what is going to happen. I hope he helps us get to the playoffs and win. Hopefully everyone here does.

royalswin100games
03-03-2008, 03:40 PM
Oh, and I don't think we would have to go after a TE in the draft if we didn't cut the best blocking TE in the league in Jason Dunn. What the heck were they thinking there?

DrunkHillbilly
03-03-2008, 04:16 PM
Are you kidding me? Huard took our team to the playoffs and Waters has made Pro Bowls...what is productive in your mind?
If your going to make a case for Damon Freaking Huard being a proven productive veteran who brings leadership to the team, this conversation is OVER!!!!!!!!!

chief31
03-03-2008, 07:22 PM
Well, let's look at the record...over the past 2 decades, Marty built the Chiefs offense that Vermiel took advantage of. sure he added a couple FA's, but the foundatioons was layed by the drafting of Marty. Then he went and created the San Deigo offensive machine....so yeah, i would credit Marty for give Dick a great foundation to start from.

Right now, we don't even have a foundation from which we could add FAs to help build into a great offense. This is the season which we need to build the foundation thru the draft and follow up next year with a few FAs and another solid draft.

Signing big FAs right now would be like putting a bandaid on a hemorage.

That is silly. Marty had a long history of creating ho-hum offenses, then admitted to keeping his hands off of the Chargers' offense.

Whereas Vermiel had a history of creating high-powered offenses.

In fact, how was the Chiefs' offense before Vermiel arrived?


Man, I would have totally agreed about Lloyd last season but I just don't know what to think about him now after the terrible season he had last year. As I said before though, I think it's a position that has needed to addressed for a few years now. TG is a staple but Bowe isn't a saviour. He will need help on the opposite side at some point and I don't think the guys we have now are worthy ofthat need. We need someone who can stretch the field. Teams are going to start to key on TG on the short routes over the middle I'm afraid.

One thing about Brabdon last year is that he was on a team with Santana Moss and Antoine Randle-el. But he certainly had an opportunity.


What did Waters do this season? Waters was a beneficiary of Roaf and Shields. That's why he has pro bowl appearances, IMO. Hopefully, he's a good center.

Bold asumption. I don't know many o-linemen that can carry the other four o-line positions on his back.



If your going to make a case for Damon Freaking Huard being a proven productive veteran who brings leadership to the team, this conversation is OVER!!!!!!!!!

Then it is over. Huard has a Super Bowl ring, or two, doesn't he? You ask for veteran leadership.then, after that isn't enough, you say you need guys with playoff experience. But two Super Bowl rings isn't enough either.

Huard is a veteran who has had some success by getting the Chiefs into the playoffs, and has seen two Super Bowls.

No, he isn't Tom Brady, but it is unfair to discredit him as not bringing any veteran leadership to the team.

hermhater
03-03-2008, 07:48 PM
I said play nice!














That is all. :biggrin:

texaschief
03-03-2008, 07:49 PM
If your going to make a case for Damon Freaking Huard being a proven productive veteran who brings leadership to the team, this conversation is OVER!!!!!!!!!

You're right, he only has 12 years in the league backing up QBs like Marino, Brady and Green....what could he POSSIBLY lend to a team who will be nurturing young QBs? my bad....and what was that about players on the team who have been a part of a playoff game winner? Huard is the ONLY player left on this team with a Super Bowl ring. But, like you said, i'm sure he has nothing to contribute to this team.

DrunkHillbilly
03-03-2008, 09:51 PM
You're right, he only has 12 years in the league backing up QBs like Marino, Brady and Green....what could he POSSIBLY lend to a team who will be nurturing young QBs? my bad....and what was that about players on the team who have been a part of a playoff game winner? Huard is the ONLY player left on this team with a Super Bowl ring. But, like you said, i'm sure he has nothing to contribute to this team.
Now we are qualifying "productive and proven" Like I have said 85 times with a Superbowl ring huh??? You guys are joking right? You should add Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer to your list of guys that would be great leaders as well!!!!!!!!:yahoo: I love how you and others love to depend on career backups for your leadership roles. How about someone who has done something for a sustained period of time that might want to relish the role of teaching a young guy the ropes? No, instead, let's let a guy that rode the pine to a Superbowl ring and for some god forsaken reason, we gave the starting position to only to jerk it out of his hands the next year, be our guy we are going to let sculpt your guy Croyle to be the best he can be!!!! Yea right!! Good luck with that!:yahoo:

texaschief
03-03-2008, 10:06 PM
Now we are qualifying "productive and proven" Like I have said 85 times with a Superbowl ring huh??? You guys are joking right? You should add Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer to your list of guys that would be great leaders as well!!!!!!!!:yahoo: I love how you and others love to depend on career backups for your leadership roles. How about someone who has done something for a sustained period of time that might want to relish the role of teaching a young guy the ropes? No, instead, let's let a guy that rode the pine to a Superbowl ring and for some god forsaken reason, we gave the starting position to only to jerk it out of his hands the next year, be our guy we are going to let sculpt your guy Croyle to be the best he can be!!!! Yea right!! Good luck with that!:yahoo:

Sure....know of any in this year's Free Agent class? lmao. That's my point....these guys don't usually exist in free agency.

DrunkHillbilly
03-03-2008, 10:24 PM
Sure....know of any in this year's Free Agent class? lmao. That's my point....these guys don't usually exist in free agency.
My point has been over the last few years, we have known that Green was going to take a back seat. We, at that point gave the reigns to Huard. First mistake! Then, we draft Croyle, second mistake. IMO. So, let's see, we let one go to Miami this year. ( didn't even ask him to adopt that role. He may have declined but.....)
These have been available in the past 2 years I believe..

Kurt Warner was available... we didn't bother.

Brunell was available...didn't bother.

Garcia was available ( could have talked to as a starter ) didn't bother.

Brees ( could have talked to as a starter) didn't bother.

Garrard ( could have talked to as a starter ) didn't bother.

Culpepper ( very productive career. May have interest in a back up role) won't bother.

There are probably a few that I am missing. I don't want to have a guy who has basically done nothing but carry the clipboard trying to mold a guy we supposedly think is our future.

hermhater
03-04-2008, 01:39 AM
We will probably draft Matt Ryan with our first pick, so just let Herm destroy him and then we can all move on.

chief31
03-04-2008, 02:14 AM
My point has been over the last few years, we have known that Green was going to take a back seat. We, at that point gave the reigns to Huard. First mistake! Then, we draft Croyle, second mistake. IMO. So, let's see, we let one go to Miami this year. ( didn't even ask him to adopt that role. He may have declined but.....)
These have been available in the past 2 years I believe..

Kurt Warner was available... we didn't bother.

Brunell was available...didn't bother.

Garcia was available ( could have talked to as a starter ) didn't bother.

Brees ( could have talked to as a starter) didn't bother.

Garrard ( could have talked to as a starter ) didn't bother.

Culpepper ( very productive career. May have interest in a back up role) won't bother.

There are probably a few that I am missing. I don't want to have a guy who has basically done nothing but carry the clipboard trying to mold a guy we supposedly think is our future.

I'm fine with it, for this season.

hermhater
03-04-2008, 02:19 AM
I'm fine with it, for this season.

Where's the :biggrin:?

:yahoo:

chief31
03-04-2008, 02:22 AM
Where's the :biggrin:?

:yahoo:

Right... about... ^there! See him?

hermhater
03-04-2008, 02:25 AM
Where's the :biggrin:?

:yahoo:


Right... about... ^there! See him?

That there's just talent at killin' time!

:sign0098:

jaytray
03-04-2008, 03:25 AM
Let's be real here guys.... There is a reason Huard has been a life time back up. Just because the guy backed up Marino or Brady or who ever doesn't mean anything.

He might have something to offer Croyle but it isn't much. If we were to let Huard go I don't think I'd lose any sleep over it... Or even give it a second thought. We suck with Croyle we suck with Huard. But atleast Croyle can maybe turn into something good.

Hillbilly is right. Huard doesn't offer anything to this team.
If we had stepped up in FA a few years back i bet we could of had Brees pretty easy. But we wanted to go with the 59 year old Trent Green for 1 more year.

hermhater
03-04-2008, 03:29 AM
Let's be real here guys.... There is a reason Huard has been a life time back up. Just because the guy backed up Marino or Brady or who ever doesn't mean anything.

He might have something to offer Croyle but it isn't much. If we were to let Huard go I don't think I'd lose any sleep over it... Or even give it a second thought. We suck with Croyle we suck with Huard. But atleast Croyle can maybe turn into something good.

Hillbilly is right. Huard doesn't offer anything to this team.
If we had stepped up in FA a few years back i bet we could of had Brees pretty easy. But we wanted to go with the 59 year old Trent Green for 1 more year.

Trent was only 58!

Pay attention!

:biggrin:

jaytray
03-04-2008, 03:36 AM
Trent was only 58!

Pay attention!

:biggrin:

Damn... Nice catch. I almost googled it just to be sure. Arrrrrrg.

:yahoo:

hermhater
03-04-2008, 03:39 AM
Damn... Nice catch. I almost googled it just to be sure. Arrrrrrg.

:yahoo:

Hah!

Would you like to play some gentlemans poker?

Go to the Casino.

chief31
03-04-2008, 04:16 AM
Let's be real here guys.... There is a reason Huard has been a life time back up. Just because the guy backed up Marino or Brady or who ever doesn't mean anything.

He might have something to offer Croyle but it isn't much. If we were to let Huard go I don't think I'd lose any sleep over it... Or even give it a second thought. We suck with Croyle we suck with Huard. But atleast Croyle can maybe turn into something good.

Hillbilly is right. Huard doesn't offer anything to this team.
If we had stepped up in FA a few years back i bet we could of had Brees pretty easy. But we wanted to go with the 59 year old Trent Green for 1 more year.

That is presumptuous. Huard played very well when given the chance.

Was the "reason" he was a backup because he was behind Tom Brady and Trent Green, or because noone ever got to see what he could do because he was behind Brady and Green?

I hate assuming that way. From what I have seen with my own eyes of Huard, he has been very good. '07 he was forced to play with no help from the running game, no protection from his offensive line, an injury, and without his no.1 WR.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times... I don't think that any QB in the NFL would have done much better at all.

hermhater
03-04-2008, 04:27 AM
That is presumptuous. Huard played very well when given the chance.

Was the "reason" he was a backup because he was behind Tom Brady and Trent Green, or because noone ever got to see what he could do because he was behind Brady and Green?

I hate assuming that way. From what I have seen with my own eyes of Huard, he has been very good. '07 he was forced to play with no help from the running game, no protection from his offensive line, an injury, and without his no.1 WR.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times... I don't think that any QB in the NFL would have done much better at all.


You are right and wrong.

Good eyes though!

:bananen_smilies046:

DrunkHillbilly
03-04-2008, 08:57 AM
That is presumptuous. Huard played very well when given the chance.

Was the "reason" he was a backup because he was behind Tom Brady and Trent Green, or because noone ever got to see what he could do because he was behind Brady and Green?

I hate assuming that way. From what I have seen with my own eyes of Huard, he has been very good. '07 he was forced to play with no help from the running game, no protection from his offensive line, an injury, and without his no.1 WR.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times... I don't think that any QB in the NFL would have done much better at all.
Understood but the whole point of this is that he is back in the backup role! When your a backup and have 1 out of 15 years of on field experience, how do you number 1: expect to have any "real" advice when you haven't been in the position neccassary to know what it's like in certain circumstances on the field and #2: expect the kid your trying to teach to listen to you when you've been a fricken backup for 15 years?!?!!!!!!!

I agree, this year with the exception of possibly Culpepper, there aren't many viable veteran backups. However, what I have been preaching for as long as you have been on the Croyle bandwagon is that we haven't and could have brought someone (even a starter I.E. Brees or Garcia ) for the past several years but chose to go with an unproven, aging backup that is STILL a backup!

Chiefster
03-04-2008, 05:18 PM
Let's be real here guys.... There is a reason Huard has been a life time back up. Just because the guy backed up Marino or Brady or who ever doesn't mean anything.

He might have something to offer Croyle but it isn't much. If we were to let Huard go I don't think I'd lose any sleep over it... Or even give it a second thought. We suck with Croyle we suck with Huard. But atleast Croyle can maybe turn into something good.

Hillbilly is right. Huard doesn't offer anything to this team.
If we had stepped up in FA a few years back i bet we could of had Brees pretty easy. But we wanted to go with the 59 year old Trent Green for 1 more year.

With the O-line we had last year we'd suck with Tom Brady.

DrunkHillbilly
03-04-2008, 06:25 PM
With the O-line we had last year we'd suck with Tom Brady.
I would bet A LOT of money we would have won more than 4 games!!

texaschief
03-04-2008, 10:10 PM
I would bet A LOT of money we would have won more than 4 games!!

I'd take that bet. I saw what happened to Tom Brady when he was pressured in the Super Bowl. BTW, who won that game again? lol

chief31
03-04-2008, 10:22 PM
I would bet A LOT of money we would have won more than 4 games!!


I'd take that bet. I saw what happened to Tom Brady when he was pressured in the Super Bowl. BTW, who won that game again? lol

You beat me to the punch here TC.

texaschief
03-04-2008, 10:26 PM
You beat me to the punch here TC.

my bad. I've been gone for a couple days, get back and instead of having like 50 something "unread posts" i see almost 400!!!! What the hell happened in here? I'm still trying to catch up!!!


:lol: :lol:

Chiefster
03-04-2008, 10:29 PM
my bad. I've been gone for a couple days, get back and instead of having like 50 something "unread posts" i see almost 400!!!! What the hell happened in here? I'm still trying to catch up!!!


:lol: :lol:


It is never ending! :)

hermhater
03-05-2008, 04:47 AM
It is never ending! :)


How does that happen again? :yahoo:

chief31
03-05-2008, 05:46 AM
my bad. I've been gone for a couple days, get back and instead of having like 50 something "unread posts" i see almost 400!!!! What the hell happened in here? I'm still trying to catch up!!!


:lol: :lol:

I rarely miss a day, and still get surprised with a 200+ number of unread posts sometimes.

That's usually a day that you have been on here bickering with someone. :fan_wave2: (...Other than myself.)

:lol:

Canada
03-05-2008, 09:34 AM
Or when HH has a few :drunkhb:

Canada
03-05-2008, 09:35 AM
Or when I post a whole bunch of funny little short posts. :D

DrunkHillbilly
03-05-2008, 11:36 AM
I'd take that bet. I saw what happened to Tom Brady when he was pressured in the Super Bowl. BTW, who won that game again? lol
You and 31 honestly believe we wouldn't have won at least 5 games last season with Tom Brady as our QB???????????????????????????????????????????? You realize there's more to playing the position than just throwing the ball right? Get serious!!!! If you honestly believe this, you are definetly in the minority around the world! I guarrantee it!

hermhater
03-05-2008, 01:59 PM
400+ unread posts?

That means you haven't been doing your job! :sign0104:

:lol:

texaschief
03-05-2008, 03:21 PM
You and 31 honestly believe we wouldn't have won at least 5 games last season with Tom Brady as our QB???????????????????????????????????????????? You realize there's more to playing the position than just throwing the ball right? Get serious!!!! If you honestly believe this, you are definetly in the minority around the world! I guarrantee it!

I guess I am in the minority. While all you women swoon over him, I'm looking at Brady for what he is.

Please explain to me how an OG like Brian Waters benefits from Pro Bowl OLinemen like Shield and Roaf around him, but a QB who could absolutely do nothing without good linemen infront of him, could single handedly win more games with the guys we had last year....that just makes no sense what so ever.

Tom Brady is a great QB to be sure. He makes great decisions when he has all the time in the world and targets like Stallworth, Welker and Moss to throw to, but Brady is no "great athlete." Did you see his combine video? Right now, as i am sitting here, i could put up better numbers than what he put up at the combine. Homeboy ran the 40 in the mid 5's. I can't throw 70 yards, but i can hit 61 or 62.

Any QB looks like a super star when they have 7 seconds to sit in the pocket and not have to worry about getting hit.

royalswin100games
03-05-2008, 03:31 PM
I guess I am in the minority. While all you women swoon over him, I'm looking at Brady for what he is.

Please explain to me how an OG like Brian Waters benefits from Pro Bowl OLinemen like Shield and Roaf around him, but a QB who could absolutely do nothing without good linemen infront of him, could single handedly win more games with the guys we had last year....that just makes no sense what so ever.

You got me...

Tom Brady is a great QB to be sure. He makes great decisions when he has all the time in the world and targets like Stallworth, Welker and Moss to throw to, but Brady is no "great athlete." Did you see his combine video? Right now, as i am sitting here, i could put up better numbers than what he put up at the combine. Homeboy ran the 40 in the mid 5's. I can't throw 70 yards, but i can hit 61 or 62.

Are you a QB?

Any QB looks like a super star when they have 7 seconds to sit in the pocket and not have to worry about getting hit.

I disagree. Most NFL starters will look like super stars with 7 seconds in the pocket. Not any QB.

texaschief
03-05-2008, 03:37 PM
I disagree. Most NFL starters will look like super stars with 7 seconds in the pocket. Not any QB.

Really? Show me a poor QB with a great line.

royalswin100games
03-05-2008, 03:40 PM
Really? Show me a poor QB with a great line.

Phillip Rivers, Jay Cutler, Tavaris Jackson, Rex Grossman(or whomever the Bears choose to start).

texaschief
03-05-2008, 03:45 PM
Phillip Rivers, Jay Cutler, Tavaris Jackson, Rex Grossman(or whomever the Bears choose to start).

Rivers and Cutler...2nd year starters are poor QBs? I keep forgetting Rivers DIDN'T play with a torn ACL in the AFC championship game...my bad.

Tavaris Jackson has been in the league forever!!!! You'd think by now he'd get his crap together....oh wait.

The Bears O-line isn't that good btw.

but keep trying.

royalswin100games
03-05-2008, 03:54 PM
Rivers and Cutler...2nd year starters are poor QBs? I keep forgetting Rivers DIDN'T play with a torn ACL in the AFC championship game...my bad.

Tavaris Jackson has been in the league forever!!!! You'd think by now he'd get his crap together....oh wait.

The Bears O-line isn't that good btw.

but keep trying.

Allright expert.

You would think Rivers would do more with the offensive weapons and line he has wouldn't you? 277 completions in 460 attempts for 3152 yards, 21 TDs and 15 INTs. The fact is he doesn't have the composure to play the position.

Should I really go on even though your argument was that "Any QB looks like a super star when they have 7 seconds to sit in the pocket and not have to worry about getting hit."

Really, any QB?

Or do you want to argue about experience?

texaschief
03-05-2008, 04:08 PM
Allright expert.

You would think Rivers would do more with the offensive weapons and line he has wouldn't you? 277 completions in 460 attempts for 3152 yards, 21 TDs and 15 INTs. The fact is he doesn't have the composure to play the position.

Should I really go on even though your argument was that "Any QB looks like a super star when they have 7 seconds to sit in the pocket and not have to worry about getting hit."

Really, any QB?

Or do you want to argue about experience?

Well, let's see, on one hand, you've got the Patriots, who in Brady's second season were coming off a Super Bowl win in which Brady was named MVP. The following season, Brady throws 28 TDs and 14 INT's.

So, we can compare the two if you'd like, considering their numbers are simlar with equally talented teams. Last year, Rivers led the Chargers to the best record in the league while leading them to one fewer game than Brady led the Pats THIS season.

Yeah, Rivers sucks.

royalswin100games
03-05-2008, 04:15 PM
Well, let's see, on one hand, you've got the Patriots, who in Brady's second season were coming off a Super Bowl win in which Brady was named MVP. The following season, Brady throws 28 TDs and 14 INT's.


So, we can compare the two if you'd like, considering their numbers are simlar with equally talented teams. Last year, Rivers led the Chargers to the best record in the league while leading them to one fewer game than Brady led the Pats THIS season.

Yeah, Rivers sucks.

We can argue that Rivers led that team if you like.

I never said Rivers sucks, I said he lacks the composure to play the position. Maybe as he matures, he will get better but you didn't want to argue experience.

IMO, several other QBs in this league could walk into that position with those players and put up better numbers. Even rookies or second year QBs that have shown more maturity than Rivers.

rbedgood
03-05-2008, 04:21 PM
Or when HH has a few :drunkhb:

A few...??? Is HH building up a tolerance???

DrunkHillbilly
03-05-2008, 04:47 PM
Tom Brady sucks!!!! Funny!

royalswin100games
03-05-2008, 04:54 PM
Tom Brady sucks!!!! Funny!

Yep, pretty hilarious.

Coach
03-05-2008, 11:11 PM
If we were to let Huard go I don't think I'd lose any sleep over it... Or even give it a second thought. We suck with Croyle we suck with Huard. But at least Croyle can maybe turn into something good.


I would tend to agree with this assessment. I think Croyle should start every game this season regardless of how bad he is playing. At least at the end of the season the Chiefs can make an informed decision about the QB of the future for this franchise.


Any QB looks like a super star when they have 7 seconds to sit in the pocket and not have to worry about getting hit.

I'm calling bullsh*t on this one. Although it doesn't hurt. Brady definitely looks much better because of his offensive line. But so does every good QB. I still remember the Patriots play last year where Tom Brady acts like the snap went over his head, then turns his back to the line of scrimmage for 2-3 seconds, then turns back around, surveys the field for another 2-3 seconds, then throws a strike to Moss in the End Zone. If he tried that crap in KC, he would have been carried off on a stretcher.

Still, many QB's could screw up even if they had all day in the pocket. You also need WR's that can get open. Brady definitely has those.

chief31
03-06-2008, 04:35 AM
You and 31 honestly believe we wouldn't have won at least 5 games last season with Tom Brady as our QB???????????????????????????????????????????? You realize there's more to playing the position than just throwing the ball right? Get serious!!!! If you honestly believe this, you are definetly in the minority around the world! I guarrantee it!

Minority here. Although, the majority appearently voted for Bush last time around, so I feel pretty positive about not being in the majority. :D


Rivers and Cutler...2nd year starters are poor QBs? I keep forgetting Rivers DIDN'T play with a torn ACL in the AFC championship game...my bad.

Tavaris Jackson has been in the league forever!!!! You'd think by now he'd get his crap together....oh wait.

The Bears O-line isn't that good btw.

but keep trying.

Well, I would have to grant the Grossman argument. I have seen him have plenty of time, on a regular basis, only to throw a bunch of "ducks".

Tavaris Jackson has a great run-blocking o-line.

But Rivers?!?!?!? Let's look at this...

284 of 460, 61.7 pct., 3388 yards, 22 tds, 9 ints, 92.0 QBrating.


Hmm, somehow these numbers were neglected in the previous post. They look like superstar numbers from here.

Why show numbers from one season with a whole new offense, and not his numbers as a first-year starter?


Allright expert.

You would think Rivers would do more with the offensive weapons and line he has wouldn't you? 277 completions in 460 attempts for 3152 yards, 21 TDs and 15 INTs. The fact is he doesn't have the composure to play the position.

Wow. Those are actually some pretty good numbers. Aside from the previous seasons. Esp3ecially for such a young guy.

Should I really go on even though your argument was that "Any QB looks like a super star when they have 7 seconds to sit in the pocket and not have to worry about getting hit."

Really, any QB?

Or do you want to argue about experience?

Not quite any QB, but many that appear to be worthless now, would look like HOFers if they had the protection. In fact, I would guess most.

DrunkHillbilly
03-06-2008, 10:46 AM
I'm soooooooo glad we didn't draft Tom Brady!!!! He's terrible.

chief31
03-06-2008, 11:41 AM
I'm soooooooo glad we didn't draft Tom Brady!!!! He's terrible.

I am so glad that you decided not to exaggerate, or make wild insenuations in this thread.

:lol:

DrunkHillbilly
03-06-2008, 01:54 PM
I am so glad that you decided not to exaggerate, or make wild insenuations in this thread.

:lol:
I just find it hilarious how you think last years team would have been just as bad with Tom Brady at the QB position! Absolutely hilarious!!!!!:yahoo:

hermhater
03-06-2008, 01:59 PM
A few...??? Is HH building up a tolerance???

Meh.

:bananen_smilies046:

texaschief
03-06-2008, 06:17 PM
Minority here. Although, the majority appearently voted for Bush last time around, so I feel pretty positive about not being in the majority. :D



Well, I would have to grant the Grossman argument. I have seen him have plenty of time, on a regular basis, only to throw a bunch of "ducks".

Tavaris Jackson has a great run-blocking o-line.

But Rivers?!?!?!? Let's look at this...

284 of 460, 61.7 pct., 3388 yards, 22 tds, 9 ints, 92.0 QBrating.


Hmm, somehow these numbers were neglected in the previous post. They look like superstar numbers from here.

Why show numbers from one season with a whole new offense, and not his numbers as a first-year starter?



Not quite any QB, but many that appear to be worthless now, would look like HOFers if they had the protection. In fact, I would guess most.

I was comparing Brady's/Rivers' second years. I didn't feel like doing too much research on that.

hermhater
03-07-2008, 04:27 AM
I was comparing Brady's/Rivers' second years. I didn't feel like doing too much research on that.

Get a room...

:11:

chief31
03-07-2008, 06:00 AM
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times... I don't think that any QB in the NFL would have done much better at all.


I'm soooooooo glad we didn't draft Tom Brady!!!! He's terrible.


I am so glad that you decided not to exaggerate, or make wild insenuations in this thread.

:lol:


I just find it hilarious how you think last years team would have been just as bad with Tom Brady at the QB position! Absolutely hilarious!!!!!:yahoo:

Still on that shoving words in peoples mouth kick, ehh?

By the way, how well did Tom Brady do in the only game that he had to play without having top-notch protection? (Super Bowl)

If you ask me, he would have been out for the season behind our o-line, almost immediately in '07.

No Randy Moss, no Wes Welker, no running game, and no time to go through ones progression means that mistakes will be vastly more frequent.


I just find it hilarious how you think last years team would have been just as bad with Tom Brady at the QB position! Absolutely hilarious!!!!!

Let's see.... How did the Chiefs' running game do with, what you have said is one of the absolute best RBs in the league (L.J.)?

But surely if we had some "Centaur-like" beast of a RB, we would be able to run the ball effectively. Just like if we had some awesome super-stud of a QB, then we would have been championship-caliber, just like that. :character0079:

hermhater
03-07-2008, 02:35 PM
Did you convince him yet 31?

:lol:

DrunkHillbilly
03-07-2008, 07:26 PM
Still on that shoving words in peoples mouth kick, ehh?

By the way, how well did Tom Brady do in the only game that he had to play without having top-notch protection? (Super Bowl)

If you ask me, he would have been out for the season behind our o-line, almost immediately in '07.

No Randy Moss, no Wes Welker, no running game, and no time to go through ones progression means that mistakes will be vastly more frequent.



Let's see.... How did the Chiefs' running game do with, what you have said is one of the absolute best RBs in the league (L.J.)?

But surely if we had some "Centaur-like" beast of a RB, we would be able to run the ball effectively. Just like if we had some awesome super-stud of a QB, then we would have been championship-caliber, just like that. :character0079:
:funnypost: Brady sucks. Your right. Based on your theory of Brett Favre settin all those records makes him a great QB, doesn't that qualify Brady??? I guess Huard and Croyle are a lot tougher than he is. And better I guess? Never said win a championship. Said we would have won at least 5 games! LJ sucks. We should just cut him and let Smith play.

chief31
03-08-2008, 02:19 AM
:funnypost: Brady sucks. Your right. Based on your theory of Brett Favre settin all those records makes him a great QB, doesn't that qualify Brady??? I guess Huard and Croyle are a lot tougher than he is. And better I guess? Never said win a championship. Said we would have won at least 5 games! LJ sucks. We should just cut him and let Smith play.

What a riot! :lol: There really is no point in trying to discuss anything with you. I even pointed out where I said that any other QB wouldn't have done MUCH better, and highlighted it for you, just like that, and yet you persist with the absurd exaggerations.

So, anyway, what happened to L.J last season?

hermhater
03-08-2008, 02:58 AM
What a riot! :lol: There really is no point in trying to discuss anything with you. I even pointed out where I said that any other QB wouldn't have done MUCH better, and highlighted it for you, just like that, and yet you persist with the absurd exaggerations.

So, anyway, what happened to L.J last season?

Yaaaayyy!

I was able click on the Reply button!

.........................

Now that I've read your post:

What the hell are you doing talking sh!t on LF?

:sign0153:

DrunkHillbilly
03-08-2008, 09:56 AM
What a riot! :lol: There really is no point in trying to discuss anything with you. I even pointed out where I said that any other QB wouldn't have done MUCH better, and highlighted it for you, just like that, and yet you persist with the absurd exaggerations.

So, anyway, what happened to L.J last season?
You the one exaggerating!!!! Something like "If we would have had some awesom super stud QB we would have been championship calibur"!!!!! I said we would have won at least 5 games! Not a championship! You disagreed.

Your right! LJ sucks. You've been sayin it for ever! I just hope our line improves a little so he can shove his foot in your mouth!:sign0098:

chief31
03-09-2008, 12:18 AM
You the one exaggerating!!!! Something like "If we would have had some awesom super stud QB we would have been championship calibur"!!!!! I said we would have won at least 5 games! Not a championship! You disagreed.

Your right! LJ sucks. You've been sayin it for ever! I just hope our line improves a little so he can shove his foot in your mouth!:sign0098:

I didn't disagree. I have shown you the quote twice, where I said that no other QB would have done much better, with emboldened "much", and you still have trouble reading it.

As for LJ, I never said he sucked. You just keep impying that I said it.

The reason that LJs name was brought up, was to show how even a great player (your own opinion) at the "skill positions" can look like crap without a quality offensive line. I.E a comparison to having Brady at QB.

hermhater
03-09-2008, 12:28 AM
You the one exaggerating!!!! Something like "If we would have had some awesom super stud QB we would have been championship calibur"!!!!! I said we would have won at least 5 games! Not a championship! You disagreed.

Your right! LJ sucks. You've been sayin it for ever! I just hope our line improves a little so he can shove his foot in your mouth!:sign0098:


I didn't disagree. I have shown you the quote twice, where I said that no other QB would have done much better, with emboldened "much", and you still have trouble reading it.

As for LJ, I never said he sucked. You just keep impying that I said it.

The reason that LJs name was brought up, was to show how even a great player (your own opinion) at the "skill positions" can look like crap without a quality offensive line. I.E a comparison to having Brady at QB.

What are you both trying to say?

DrunkHillbilly
03-09-2008, 11:57 AM
I didn't disagree. I have shown you the quote twice, where I said that no other QB would have done much better, with emboldened "much", and you still have trouble reading it.

As for LJ, I never said he sucked. You just keep impying that I said it.

The reason that LJs name was brought up, was to show how even a great player (your own opinion) at the "skill positions" can look like crap without a quality offensive line. I.E a comparison to having Brady at QB.
I don't understand why your saying "no QB would have done MUCH better". I'm saying Brady would have! Your disagreeing with that right?

Canada
03-09-2008, 02:44 PM
I don't understand why your saying "no QB would have done MUCH better". I'm saying Brady would have! Your disagreeing with that right?

How about would Brady have made the playoffs with this team? Forget one win differences. Playoffs or no playoffs is a difference.

DrunkHillbilly
03-09-2008, 07:39 PM
How about would Brady have made the playoffs with this team? Forget one win differences. Playoffs or no playoffs is a difference.
The whole deal started when someone said Brady wouldn't have made the Chiefs a better team last year. I absolutely disagreed.....and here we are!!!

Canada
03-09-2008, 09:19 PM
The whole deal started when someone said Brady wouldn't have made the Chiefs a better team last year. I absolutely disagreed.....and here we are!!!

I know, I am just saying that he would not really have made us a better team in the aspect of there is no real difference between 5 wins and 4 wins. I don't think Brady would have changed the fact that the Chiefs would not have made the playoffs with him as out QB. That is really where this started and it got into arguing semantics. If he completed one more pass or gained one more yard then technically he would be better, bt the real issue is whether or not Brady would affect the outcome of or season. Even make the playoffs and lose would be an improvement, but 5 wins would not be any improvement at all.

hermhater
03-09-2008, 09:38 PM
I know, I am just saying that he would not really have made us a better team in the aspect of there is no real difference between 5 wins and 4 wins. I don't think Brady would have changed the fact that the Chiefs would not have made the playoffs with him as out QB. That is really where this started and it got into arguing semantics. If he completed one more pass or gained one more yard then technically he would be better, bt the real issue is whether or not Brady would affect the outcome of or season. Even make the playoffs and lose would be an improvement, but 5 wins would not be any improvement at all.

5 wins would guarantee Jake Long is unavailable.

DrunkHillbilly
03-09-2008, 10:23 PM
I know, I am just saying that he would not really have made us a better team in the aspect of there is no real difference between 5 wins and 4 wins. I don't think Brady would have changed the fact that the Chiefs would not have made the playoffs with him as out QB. That is really where this started and it got into arguing semantics. If he completed one more pass or gained one more yard then technically he would be better, bt the real issue is whether or not Brady would affect the outcome of or season. Even make the playoffs and lose would be an improvement, but 5 wins would not be any improvement at all.
Agreed. I don't think we would have made the playoffs either but my point when this whole deal started was that he definetly would have made our team a better team. Playoffs no but to say the team wouldn't have been better with a first ballot Hall of Famer running the show is just flat out crazy!!!!! No?

hermhater
03-09-2008, 10:28 PM
Agreed. I don't think we would have made the playoffs either but my point when this whole deal started was that he definetly would have made our team a better team. Playoffs no but to say the team wouldn't have been better with a first ballot Hall of Famer running the show is just flat out crazy!!!!! No?

Would Tom even have had the chance to impress with the play calling Herm was doing?

Chiefster
03-10-2008, 01:01 AM
Agreed. I don't think we would have made the playoffs either but my point when this whole deal started was that he definetly would have made our team a better team. Playoffs no but to say the team wouldn't have been better with a first ballot Hall of Famer running the show is just flat out crazy!!!!! No?


He would have faired no better behind our O-line. IMO

Canada
03-10-2008, 01:04 AM
Agreed. I don't think we would have made the playoffs either but my point when this whole deal started was that he definetly would have made our team a better team. Playoffs no but to say the team wouldn't have been better with a first ballot Hall of Famer running the show is just flat out crazy!!!!! No?

Like I said. Yeah he probably wins maybe a game or three more than Brodie, but really would have had no real effect on the outcome of last season. I assume we are talking just last season and not the long term upside of Brady vs Croyle. But a game or two difference without making the playoffs is about the same IMO. :bananen_smilies046:

chief31
03-10-2008, 06:15 AM
I don't understand why your saying "no QB would have done MUCH better". I'm saying Brady would have! Your disagreeing with that right?

Make up your mind. You have been saying we would have won five games. I see that as not much better. I would say that Brady wouldn't have been able to get us to 8-8. And would actually believe that 5-11 would have been most likely.

You have to remember, that he still would have been getting all the same pass-rush that he didn't have to deal with as a Patriot, and had a rokkie for his #1 WR.

That, plus the total absense of a running game, would spell trouble for any QB.

Exactly how well do you think Brady could have done?

DrunkHillbilly
03-10-2008, 10:03 AM
Make up your mind. You have been saying we would have won five games. I see that as not much better. I would say that Brady wouldn't have been able to get us to 8-8. And would actually believe that 5-11 would have been most likely.

You have to remember, that he still would have been getting all the same pass-rush that he didn't have to deal with as a Patriot, and had a rokkie for his #1 WR.

That, plus the total absense of a running game, would spell trouble for any QB.

Exactly how well do you think Brady could have done?
Man, you get up early to argue!!!!!!!
Ok, now that your agreeing with my original statement, can you stop????

How this started: Chiefster...with that O line we would have sucked with Tom Brady.

Drunk Hillbilly....I would bet A LOT of money we would have won more than 4 games!

Texaschief....I'd take that bet

31....You beat me to the punch TC.

So, now that you have agreed with my ORIGINAL statement about winning more than 4 games, are you still going to argue????

This is how these things get blown waaaaay out of proportion!!!!! Never said anything about a championship or 12 wins or 8 wins ect...... Just said I would bet A LOT of money that this team would have been better and won more than 4 games with a HOF QB!!!! Hard to argue with that statement in my mind!!!!!!!:beer: Geeeeeeez!

chief31
03-10-2008, 10:34 AM
Man, you get up early to argue!!!!!!!
Ok, now that your agreeing with my original statement, can you stop????

How this started: Chiefster...with that O line we would have sucked with Tom Brady.

Drunk Hillbilly....I would bet A LOT of money we would have won more than 4 games!

Texaschief....I'd take that bet

31....You beat me to the punch TC.

So, now that you have agreed with my ORIGINAL statement about winning more than 4 games, are you still going to argue????

This is how these things get blown waaaaay out of proportion!!!!! Never said anything about a championship or 12 wins or 8 wins ect...... Just said I would bet A LOT of money that this team would have been better and won more than 4 games with a HOF QB!!!! Hard to argue with that statement in my mind!!!!!!!:beer: Geeeeeeez!

I would take that bet. (With some odds.)

Considering that Brady was hurt all year with great protection, I doubt he would have made it to the fourth week of the season.

But the fact that I would make a certain bet certainly doesn't stick me in the "Brady sucks" camp.

You do that crap, and then the subject is changed. I wonder how anything could possibly get blown out of porportion.:D

DrunkHillbilly
03-10-2008, 11:47 AM
I would take that bet. (With some odds.)

Considering that Brady was hurt all year with great protection, I doubt he would have made it to the fourth week of the season.

But the fact that I would make a certain bet certainly doesn't stick me in the "Brady sucks" camp.

You do that crap, and then the subject is changed. I wonder how anything could possibly get blown out of porportion.:D
I do what crap? Say 'Your right, Brady sucks"? Is that what your talking about? OK, you didn't say he sucked! Feel better? However, when you make a ludacris statement like "you would bet on it", you have to expect some recourse!!! If your sooooo confident, why would you ask for odds? BTW, I would give them to you!!!!

I'd still like to figure out a way for us to bet. Ask 20 non Chiefs fans and I would bet better than half of them say the Chiefs would have been a better team and won more than 4 games last season with Tom Brady at the helm! Same team just replace Croyle with Brady!! Your out of your mind bro if you think they wouldn't have been!!!

If Brady performs like that when he's hurt all year long, I'll take it everyday and twice on Sundays over what we have at QB!!! Besides, isn't he on the injured list every game every year?? Now I understand why we disagree on so much!!! HA HA HA this is comical!! I've never typed a post with a bigger smile on my face!!!!!:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

chief31
03-10-2008, 12:04 PM
I do what crap? Say 'Your right, Brady sucks"? Is that what your talking about? OK, you didn't say he sucked! Feel better? However, when you make a ludacris statement like "you would bet on it", you have to expect some recourse!!! If your sooooo confident, why would you ask for odds? BTW, I would give them to you!!!!

I'd still like to figure out a way for us to bet. Ask 20 non Chiefs fans and I would bet better than half of them say the Chiefs would have been a better team and won more than 4 games last season with Tom Brady at the helm! Same team just replace Croyle with Brady!! Your out of your mind bro if you think they wouldn't have been!!!

If Brady performs like that when he's hurt all year long, I'll take it everyday and twice on Sundays over what we have at QB!!! Besides, isn't he on the injured list every game every year?? Now I understand why we disagree on so much!!! HA HA HA this is comical!! I've never typed a post with a bigger smile on my face!!!!!:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

Oh dear... You mean that I wouldn't be in the majority? How will I ever live with that?

Yes, Tom Brady is usually on the injured list. But without getting touched, for the most part. How long would it be before he was on IR if he was getting hit left and right?

And he only performs like that when he isn't getting pressured. Did you watch the Super Bowl? He isn't quite so wonderful without amazing protection.

Let's go back to the Brett Favre comparison...

First-ballot HOFer. But, when he had to play with a poor offensive line, (rookies) what exactly happened? How is it that with an all-world QB the Packers could possibly go 4-12?

It is absolutely mind-boggling to think that someone can do so well on a great team, and so poorly on a bad team, hunh? :D

But don't bother putting any actual thought into it. Just act smug. That sells your one-dimentional idea pretty well. :bananen_smilies046:

DrunkHillbilly
03-10-2008, 12:39 PM
Oh dear... You mean that I wouldn't be in the majority? How will I ever live with that?

Yes, Tom Brady is usually on the injured list. But without getting touched, for the most part. How long would it be before he was on IR if he was getting hit left and right?

And he only performs like that when he isn't getting pressured. Did you watch the Super Bowl? He isn't quite so wonderful without amazing protection.

Let's go back to the Brett Favre comparison...

First-ballot HOFer. But, when he had to play with a poor offensive line, (rookies) what exactly happened? How is it that with an all-world QB the Packers could possibly go 4-12?

It is absolutely mind-boggling to think that someone can do so well on a great team, and so poorly on a bad team, hunh? :D

But don't bother putting any actual thought into it. Just act smug. That sells your one-dimentional idea pretty well. :bananen_smilies046:
First of all, Tom Brady is always on the injured list because Belicheat puts him on it whether he is hurt or not!!! FACT!

Second, your off point again! Don't care about Favre or anyone else. I say the Chiefs win more than 4 games last year with Brady at QB. You disagreed and then agreed! What is it? That is the ONLY thing I have been talking about through out this entire thread since chiefster said they wouldn't have done any better with him. That's it!!!

So, the question is.......would have the Kansas City Chiefs won more games last season with Tom Brady at QB than they did with Croyle or Huard? They won 4 games! No comparisons, what ifs, never said anything about the playoffs or a championship or anything else. Just answer the question. Since that is what I have been talking about this whole time!

It all started with a simple response to chiefster about winning more games with Brady! That's it!

hermhater
03-10-2008, 01:00 PM
I guess the only way we will ever know is if we get a time machine and kidnap Tom, then go back in time to the beginning of the season and ask him real nice like to play for the Chiefs.

:yahoo:

texaschief
03-10-2008, 01:02 PM
If Brady could win one game BY HIMSELF, which one would it have been?

18 pts against the Texans?
11 pts against the Bears?
11 pts against the Jags?
12 pts against the Packers?
17 pts against the Broncos?
4 pts against the Colts?
4 pts against the Raiders?
15 pts against the Chargers?
35 pts against the Broncos?
10 pts against the Titans?
6 pts against the Lions?
3 pts against the Jets?

Let's just assume he's worth ONLY 1 TD by himself...that gives us an 8-8 record....not just one win.

Let's assume he's worth ONLY 2 TDs by himself....that puts us in the playoffs. With 12 wins.

So, you tell me....are we just one "Pro Bowl/First Ballot Hall of Fame QB" away from a 12 win season? If so, Brett Favre needs to be in camp this season.

This whole arguement is SO stupid. There's no way an immobile QB like Tom Brady is putting up another "W" with the protection the Chiefs were offering up last year. We saw those results the past 2 seasons when we lost Trent, Damon AND Brodie all to injuries. Do you honestly believe Brady would be around long enough to put another "W" on the board?

royalswin100games
03-10-2008, 01:16 PM
If Brady could win one game BY HIMSELF, which one would it have been?

18 pts against the Texans?
11 pts against the Bears?
11 pts against the Jags?
12 pts against the Packers?
17 pts against the Broncos?
4 pts against the Colts?
4 pts against the Raiders?
15 pts against the Chargers?
35 pts against the Broncos?
10 pts against the Titans?
6 pts against the Lions?
3 pts against the Jets?

Let's just assume he's worth ONLY 1 TD by himself...that gives us an 8-8 record....not just one win.

Let's assume he's worth ONLY 2 TDs by himself....that puts us in the playoffs. With 12 wins.

So, you tell me....are we just one "Pro Bowl/First Ballot Hall of Fame QB" away from a 12 win season? If so, Brett Favre needs to be in camp this season.

This whole arguement is SO stupid. There's no way an immobile QB like Tom Brady is putting up another "W" with the protection the Chiefs were offering up last year. We saw those results the past 2 seasons when we lost Trent, Damon AND Brodie all to injuries. Do you honestly believe Brady would be around long enough to put another "W" on the board?

Agreed, can't move around in the pocket when there's no pocket.

hermhater
03-10-2008, 01:20 PM
Agreed, can't move around in the pocket when there's no pocket.

And it's hard to throw down field when you're lying on your back!

:11:

DrunkHillbilly
03-10-2008, 01:30 PM
If Brady could win one game BY HIMSELF, which one would it have been?

18 pts against the Texans?
11 pts against the Bears?
11 pts against the Jags?
12 pts against the Packers?
17 pts against the Broncos?
4 pts against the Colts?
4 pts against the Raiders?
15 pts against the Chargers?
35 pts against the Broncos?
10 pts against the Titans?
6 pts against the Lions?
3 pts against the Jets?

Let's just assume he's worth ONLY 1 TD by himself...that gives us an 8-8 record....not just one win.

Let's assume he's worth ONLY 2 TDs by himself....that puts us in the playoffs. With 12 wins.

So, you tell me....are we just one "Pro Bowl/First Ballot Hall of Fame QB" away from a 12 win season? If so, Brett Favre needs to be in camp this season.

This whole arguement is SO stupid. There's no way an immobile QB like Tom Brady is putting up another "W" with the protection the Chiefs were offering up last year. We saw those results the past 2 seasons when we lost Trent, Damon AND Brodie all to injuries. Do you honestly believe Brady would be around long enough to put another "W" on the board?
Seriously????? One game? How about any of the single digit games listed? You guys keep bringing up the obvious things. How about decision making? Do you thinkhe would have thrown the INT's that Croyle would have? I have seen several posts about Croyle's decision making ability. Do you honestly believe not one of those games you just listed wouldn't have been won with Brady as QB? Unreal!

DrunkHillbilly
03-10-2008, 01:30 PM
If Brady could win one game BY HIMSELF, which one would it have been?

18 pts against the Texans?
11 pts against the Bears?
11 pts against the Jags?
12 pts against the Packers?
17 pts against the Broncos?
4 pts against the Colts?
4 pts against the Raiders?
15 pts against the Chargers?
35 pts against the Broncos?
10 pts against the Titans?
6 pts against the Lions?
3 pts against the Jets?

Let's just assume he's worth ONLY 1 TD by himself...that gives us an 8-8 record....not just one win.

Let's assume he's worth ONLY 2 TDs by himself....that puts us in the playoffs. With 12 wins.

So, you tell me....are we just one "Pro Bowl/First Ballot Hall of Fame QB" away from a 12 win season? If so, Brett Favre needs to be in camp this season.

This whole arguement is SO stupid. There's no way an immobile QB like Tom Brady is putting up another "W" with the protection the Chiefs were offering up last year. We saw those results the past 2 seasons when we lost Trent, Damon AND Brodie all to injuries. Do you honestly believe Brady would be around long enough to put another "W" on the board?
Seriously????? One game? How about any of the single digit games listed? You guys keep bringing up the obvious things. How about decision making? Do you think he would have thrown the INT's that Croyle did? I have seen several posts about Croyle's decision making ability. Do you honestly believe not one of those games you just listed wouldn't have been won with Brady as QB? Unreal!

DrunkHillbilly
03-10-2008, 01:33 PM
If Brady could win one game BY HIMSELF, which one would it have been?

18 pts against the Texans?
11 pts against the Bears?
11 pts against the Jags?
12 pts against the Packers?
17 pts against the Broncos?
4 pts against the Colts?
4 pts against the Raiders?
15 pts against the Chargers?
35 pts against the Broncos?
10 pts against the Titans?
6 pts against the Lions?
3 pts against the Jets?

Let's just assume he's worth ONLY 1 TD by himself...that gives us an 8-8 record....not just one win.

Let's assume he's worth ONLY 2 TDs by himself....that puts us in the playoffs. With 12 wins.

So, you tell me....are we just one "Pro Bowl/First Ballot Hall of Fame QB" away from a 12 win season? If so, Brett Favre needs to be in camp this season.

This whole arguement is SO stupid. There's no way an immobile QB like Tom Brady is putting up another "W" with the protection the Chiefs were offering up last year. We saw those results the past 2 seasons when we lost Trent, Damon AND Brodie all to injuries. Do you honestly believe Brady would be around long enough to put another "W" on the board?
Seriously????? One game? How about any of the single digit games listed? You guys keep bringing up the obvious things. I guess you guys must think that he is a bigger ***** than Green, Huard or Croyle huh since they were all banged up? How about decision making? Do you think he would have thrown the INT's that Croyle did? I have seen several posts about Croyle's decision making ability. Do you honestly believe not one of those games you just listed wouldn't have been won with Brady as QB? Unreal!

hermhater
03-10-2008, 01:37 PM
Seriously????? One game? How about any of the single digit games listed? You guys keep bringing up the obvious things. I guess you guys must think that he is a bigger ***** than Green, Huard or Croyle huh since they were all banged up? How about decision making? Do you think he would have thrown the INT's that Croyle did? I have seen several posts about Croyle's decision making ability. Do you honestly believe not one of those games you just listed wouldn't have been won with Brady as QB? Unreal!

Did you guys find that time machine yet?

This argument is moot until you do!

:11:

royalswin100games
03-10-2008, 01:42 PM
Seriously????? One game? How about any of the single digit games listed? You guys keep bringing up the obvious things. I guess you guys must think that he is a bigger ***** than Green, Huard or Croyle huh since they were all banged up? How about decision making? Do you think he would have thrown the INT's that Croyle did? I have seen several posts about Croyle's decision making ability. Do you honestly believe not one of those games you just listed wouldn't have been won with Brady as QB? Unreal!

I won't disagree with your statements about decision making either. Brady could have made better decisions than Croyle. I do think he would have been banged up behind our line. And if we're speaking of what ifs, don't you think Brady's check downs take a lot of pressure off of him too. It's a team game and he wouldn't have the same pieces in KC. Yes, we would have won more games. The guy's a pretty smart QB. But I don't think we would have made the playoffs, and if we did, we wouldn't have gotten far. Why are we talking what ifs anyway? We should talk about the team we have and how messed up we are right now. :D

hermhater
03-10-2008, 01:45 PM
I won't disagree with your statements about decision making either. Brady could have made better decisions than Croyle. I do think he would have been banged up behind our line. And if we're speaking of what ifs, don't you think Brady's check downs take a lot of pressure off of him too. It's a team game and he wouldn't have the same pieces in KC. Yes, we would have won more games. The guy's a pretty smart QB. But I don't think we would have made the playoffs, and if we did, we wouldn't have gotten far. Why are we talking what ifs anyway? We should talk about the team we have and how messed up we are right now. :D


Are you still playing poker?

royalswin100games
03-10-2008, 01:46 PM
Are you still playing poker?

You're a hoser. Don't hork my beer eh. :D

hermhater
03-10-2008, 01:48 PM
You're a hoser. Don't hork my beer eh. :D

You're a towel!

Go play poker!

chief31
03-10-2008, 01:54 PM
First of all, Tom Brady is always on the injured list because Belicheat puts him on it whether he is hurt or not!!! FACT!

Second, your off point again! Don't care about Favre or anyone else. I say the Chiefs win more than 4 games last year with Brady at QB. You disagreed and then agreed! What is it? That is the ONLY thing I have been talking about through out this entire thread since chiefster said they wouldn't have done any better with him. That's it!!!

So, the question is.......would have the Kansas City Chiefs won more games last season with Tom Brady at QB than they did with Croyle or Huard? They won 4 games! No comparisons, what ifs, never said anything about the playoffs or a championship or anything else. Just answer the question. Since that is what I have been talking about this whole time!

It all started with a simple response to chiefster about winning more games with Brady! That's it!

Oh, that is all? Now Tom Brady doesn't suck? You haven't strayed from that one single thought?

And if it were somehow concievable, I would gladly take that bet, with some odds. (Only because I know that I would get them.)

I would gladly bet money that Tom Brady, who has never had to play on a poor team, would struggle to win any games, and would most likely end his season before getting half way through it, starting for last years Chiefs.

But that doesn't mean that I am so incredibly certain of it that my whole world would come crashing down on me from disbelief if he managed to stay healthy and get to five wins.

Now go ahead and get all self-righteous on me, and laugh because I believe that a good players can look great with great a team, but look like garbage with garbage teams.

Have a blast.

Just remember, that L.J. is a player that you believe to be a great talent, and somehow he mangaed to look really bad in '07.

By the way, what do you you credit L.J.s statistacal '06-'07 differences to

[My damn shift key quit working. Can't get a question mark in there.]:D

hermhater
03-10-2008, 02:37 PM
Oh, that is all? Now Tom Brady doesn't suck? You haven't strayed from that one single thought?

And if it were somehow concievable, I would gladly take that bet, with some odds. (Only because I know that I would get them.)

I would gladly bet money that Tom Brady, who has never had to play on a poor team, would struggle to win any games, and would most likely end his season before getting half way through it, starting for last years Chiefs.

But that doesn't mean that I am so incredibly certain of it that my whole world would come crashing down on me from disbelief if he managed to stay healthy and get to five wins.

Now go ahead and get all self-righteous on me, and laugh because I believe that a good players can look great with great a team, but look like garbage with garbage teams.

Have a blast.

Just remember, that L.J. is a player that you believe to be a great talent, and somehow he mangaed to look really bad in '07.

By the way, what do you you credit L.J.s statistacal '06-'07 differences to

[My damn shift key quit working. Can't get a question mark in there.]:D

You got a question mark in at the top of your post, couldn't you copy and paste down at the bottom?

You're just looking for attention!

http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

DrunkHillbilly
03-10-2008, 03:27 PM
Oh, that is all? Now Tom Brady doesn't suck? You haven't strayed from that one single thought?

And if it were somehow concievable, I would gladly take that bet, with some odds. (Only because I know that I would get them.)

I would gladly bet money that Tom Brady, who has never had to play on a poor team, would struggle to win any games, and would most likely end his season before getting half way through it, starting for last years Chiefs.

But that doesn't mean that I am so incredibly certain of it that my whole world would come crashing down on me from disbelief if he managed to stay healthy and get to five wins.

Now go ahead and get all self-righteous on me, and laugh because I believe that a good players can look great with great a team, but look like garbage with garbage teams.

Have a blast.

Just remember, that L.J. is a player that you believe to be a great talent, and somehow he mangaed to look really bad in '07.

By the way, what do you you credit L.J.s statistacal '06-'07 differences to

[My damn shift key quit working. Can't get a question mark in there.]:D
:sign0153: Whatever!! If you can't grasp the concept of what I'm saying, oh well. One more win with Brady!! That's al I am saying. Period! Definetly would have happened!!!!!

DrunkHillbilly
03-10-2008, 03:33 PM
I won't disagree with your statements about decision making either. Brady could have made better decisions than Croyle. I do think he would have been banged up behind our line. And if we're speaking of what ifs, don't you think Brady's check downs take a lot of pressure off of him too. It's a team game and he wouldn't have the same pieces in KC. Yes, we would have won more games. The guy's a pretty smart QB. But I don't think we would have made the playoffs, and if we did, we wouldn't have gotten far. Why are we talking what ifs anyway? We should talk about the team we have and how messed up we are right now. :D
I agree with everything here. The point was I think we would have won more games. Not playoffs, championships or anything just at least one more game! Look at my original response to chiefster and it will all be more clear. It would have been a different game with him at the helm and yes, I believe his check downs would have been instrumental. Yes, it is all a moot point but I just made one simple comment and now we're here!! Weird!:D

hermhater
03-10-2008, 03:36 PM
:sign0153: Whatever!! If you can't grasp the concept of what I'm saying, oh well. One more win with Brady!! That's al I am saying. Period! Definetly would have happened!!!!!

Get him tiger!

:sign0098:

Canada
03-10-2008, 05:44 PM
Maybe it happens, maybe it dosen't. No one knows so we can all drop it. Or continue arguing in circles. Either or, I am not fussy. This is kinda funny to read.

DrunkHillbilly
03-10-2008, 05:46 PM
Maybe it happens, maybe it dosen't. No one knows so we can all drop it. Or continue arguing in circles. Either or, I am not fussy. This is kinda funny to read.
OK Great!

Canada
03-10-2008, 05:46 PM
:bananen_smilies046::bananen_smilies046:

hermhater
03-10-2008, 05:47 PM
Maybe it happens, maybe it dosen't. No one knows so we can all drop it. Or continue arguing in circles. Either or, I am not fussy. This is kinda funny to read.

I say they keep arguing, because you keep responding to them. You look funny and I laugh everytime I see your red head.

Canada
03-10-2008, 05:48 PM
There it is!

hermhater
03-10-2008, 05:49 PM
There it is!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:bananen_smilies046: :bananen_smilies046: :bananen_smilies046: :bananen_smilies046: :bananen_smilies046:

chief31
03-12-2008, 03:06 AM
:sign0153: Whatever!! If you can't grasp the concept of what I'm saying, oh well. One more win with Brady!! That's al I am saying. Period! Definetly would have happened!!!!!

O.K. then, way to go out on a limb there. :lol: Because that is such a completely unrealistic, impossible scenario. :D

And I'd still bet.

hermhater
03-12-2008, 03:59 AM
O.K. then, way to go out on a limb there. :lol: Because that is such a completely unrealistic, impossible scenario. :D

And I'd still bet.

Aren't you in charge of the Sports Book forum?

What happened to all the bets during FA?

I wasn't gonna bring it up, but now I'm low on Arrowcash and need to get some more of those insane odds you give, so I can be able to play Texas Hold in the Casino.


What's being done about this lack of bets lately?



http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

chief31
03-12-2008, 04:06 AM
Aren't you in charge of the Sports Book forum?

What happened to all the bets during FA?

I wasn't gonna bring it up, but now I'm low on Arrowcash and need to get some more of those insane odds you give, so I can be able to play Texas Hold in the Casino.


What's being done about this lack of bets lately?



http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif
I'll probably get something going for the draft, but free agency seemed too wishy-washy to me. But, now that you mention it, a Pac-Man betting thread might be good.

hermhater
03-12-2008, 04:18 AM
I'll probably get something going for the draft, but free agency seemed too wishy-washy to me. But, now that you mention it, a Pac-Man betting thread might be good.


You're serious?

Give me those odds dude, just bring it on!


:yahoo:

Chiefster
03-12-2008, 09:29 AM
There HH, I just gave you $100.00 Arrowcash. Don't lose it all in one hand. :lol:

DrunkHillbilly
03-12-2008, 11:16 AM
O.K. then, way to go out on a limb there. :lol: Because that is such a completely unrealistic, impossible scenario. :D

And I'd still bet.
You would lose!

hermhater
03-12-2008, 12:53 PM
There HH, I just gave you $100.00 Arrowcash. Don't lose it all in one hand. :lol:

Playing against you?


:lol: :lol:

Thanks man, I needed a good laugh!

:wink:

Chiefster
03-12-2008, 10:46 PM
Playing against you?


:lol::lol:

Thanks man, I needed a good laugh!

:wink:


Hmmmm, I wonder what the win/loss ratio is between us?

hermhater
03-14-2008, 04:28 PM
Hmmmm, I wonder what the win/loss ratio is between us?


Since I rarely even look at my cards, I would say that everyones win ratio is better than mine!

:bananen_smilies046:

Chiefster
03-15-2008, 08:18 PM
Since I rarely even look at my cards, I would say that everyones win ratio is better than mine!

:bananen_smilies046:

Yer a real Maverick there. :rolleyes:

hermhater
03-16-2008, 04:12 AM
Yer a real Maverick there. :rolleyes:

Yep!

No one can lose as much as me!

And yer a Maverick!

(Is that an insult or did you compliment me there?)

:bananen_smilies046:

Chiefster
03-17-2008, 08:33 PM
Yep!

No one can lose as much as me!

And yer a Maverick!

(Is that an insult or did you compliment me there?)

:bananen_smilies046:

YouTube - Amazing grace Maverick Choir