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View Full Version : TRADE! TRADE! TRADE! Building for the Future



Cisco Kid
04-21-2007, 04:35 AM
It has been thirteen long seasons since the Kansas City Chiefs and fans have witnessed a playoff win.

Also, in the the past twenty NFL drafts, the Chiefs average selection in the first round has been an "average middle of the road" pick #15. Three of those twenty drafts were without a first round selection.

Respectable and average are getting rather old.

It just might be time to try a different appoach towards the draft. Submitted for your thinking is a somewhat "out of the box" attempt to change the face of this organization:

#1 TRADE: RB Larry Johnson to the Buffalo Bills for the following picks:
2/43, 3/74, 3/92 and a 2008 3rd round pick.

#2 TRADE: Pick #1/23 to San Francisco for the following picks:
3/76, 4/104, 4/110, 4/124 and a 2008 2nd round pick.

#3 TRADE: Pick #2/43 (Buffalo) to Washington for the following pick:
2008 1st round pick.

#4 TRADE: Pick #2/54 to Houston for the following pick:
2008 1st round pick.

2007 NFL DRAFT SELECTIONS/KANSAS CITY

3/74
3/76
3/84
3/92
4/104
4/110
4/124
5/160
6/
7/

2008 NFL DRAFT SELECTIONS/KANSAS CITY

1st (Washington)
1st (Houston)
1st (K.C.)

2nd (K.C)
2nd (San Francisco)

3rd (Buffalo)
3rd (K.C.)

chief31
04-21-2007, 09:05 AM
Not a terrible thought, but a coach in his second season, with a new team, has to do well, in the draft. His first two draft classes will make-up the, ever-important, third season team.

NFL coaches are given, somewhat of, a pass, during the first two seasons of their tenures. His third season, is the first season, that the teams accomplishments, or failures, rest, primarily, on the head coaches shoulders.

From a head coaches stanpoint, this would be a bad idea. From a team presidents stanpoint, maybe you allow your head coach an extra season, for evaluation and try this kind of scenario.

It's always fun, to hear somone elses ideas, about handling the franchise. However, we would be the "laughing-stock" of the NFL, if we fail to recieve a first-round pick, (plus) for L.J. Too bad, though, that we don't have this kind of creativity, in the front office.

Coach
04-21-2007, 12:40 PM
Too bad, though, that we don't have this kind of creativity, in the front office.

Hit the nail on the head with this comment.

Chiefster
04-21-2007, 01:04 PM
Hit the nail on the head with this comment.

Well if we are talking about the front office bear in mind that it is Queen Carl that we're talking about. :D

jgunn1966
04-21-2007, 10:16 PM
Front office,did someone say front office,are you kidding me front office

texaschief
04-22-2007, 12:39 AM
wait, what am i missing? why are the texans and redskins trading 1st rd. picks for 2nd rd. picks? why are we trading the second best RB for 3 3rd rd. picks? how many starters on average really come out of the 3rd rd? who do we replace him with? what kind of players would we be drafting for in the 3rd and 4th rounds, special teamers? we have solid players outside of a couple positions on the OL, DL, and CB. why push rebuilding another year? we can fill these needs this year, give these guys a year of experience with a brutal schedule this year and grab a starter or two in next year's draft and we could make a serious playoff run. there is no reason to push rebuilding back another year.

But that's just my opinion. If we could've done something like you suggested last year for this year's draft, I'd be all for it!!

Chiefster
04-22-2007, 12:42 AM
wait, what am i missing? why are the texans and redskins trading 1st rd. picks for 2nd rd. picks? why are we trading the second best RB for 3 3rd rd. picks? how many starters on average really come out of the 3rd rd? who do we replace him with? what kind of players would we be drafting for in the 3rd and 4th rounds, special teamers? we have solid players outside of a couple positions on the OL, DL, and CB. why push rebuilding another year? we can fill these needs this year, give these guys a year of experience with a brutal schedule this year and grab a starter or two in next year's draft and we could make a serious playoff run. there is no reason to push rebuilding back another year.

But that's just my opinion. If we could've done something like you suggested last year for this year's draft, I'd be all for it!!

He has actually slipped out of the number two spot with the retirement of Will Shields.

texaschief
04-22-2007, 12:46 AM
honestly, i thought he (shields) lost a step or two last year. Welborn might actually be an upgrade considering he's going back to his original position. i don't think the drop off, if there is any, will be that big of a deal. I know Shields is a god in K.C., but he was old. Fresher legs might help the big back this year.

Chiefster
04-22-2007, 12:54 AM
honestly, i thought he (shields) lost a step or two last year. Welborn might actually be an upgrade considering he's going back to his original position. i don't think the drop off, if there is any, will be that big of a deal. I know Shields is a god in K.C., but he was old. Fresher legs might help the big back this year.


Well not to disagree, and trust me I hope you're right, but 12 straight Pro Bowls out of a fourteen year career one would think has to account for something.

Nite Crowd!

texaschief
04-22-2007, 01:12 AM
at some point you have to realize that offensive lineman aren't the super stars the WRs, RBs, QB's are.You can vote on position players by numbers (stats). How do you base a vote on an offensive lineman? there are no numbers to show... so obviously, you vote for players who's name you recognize. While Shields was a great player, you can't tell me he earned EVERY SINGLE pro bowl nomination. Especially when fans are voting these players in. K.C. doesn't play in enough nationally televised games for casual fans to realize what an outstanding player Shields was. On the ballot, they see a 7,8,10,12 time pro bowler, obviously you're gonna vote for him... "he was on the ballot for a reason right?"

Show me a position player who made 12 straight Pro Bowls. It doesn't happen. Mainly because you see thier numbers and realize he had a down year, so you don't vote him in.

Chiefster
04-22-2007, 05:20 AM
at some point you have to realize that offensive lineman aren't the super stars the WRs, RBs, QB's are.You can vote on position players by numbers (stats). How do you base a vote on an offensive lineman? there are no numbers to show... so obviously, you vote for players who's name you recognize. While Shields was a great player, you can't tell me he earned EVERY SINGLE pro bowl nomination. Especially when fans are voting these players in. K.C. doesn't play in enough nationally televised games for casual fans to realize what an outstanding player Shields was. On the ballot, they see a 7,8,10,12 time pro bowler, obviously you're gonna vote for him... "he was on the ballot for a reason right?"

Show me a position player who made 12 straight Pro Bowls. It doesn't happen. Mainly because you see thier numbers and realize he had a down year, so you don't vote him in.


I have a reaction; ummmmm WHAT! j/k


Seriously, I really don't see how Shields is overrated here. The "stats" you look at for an offensive lineman are directly linked to how well those "super star players" perform. Will not only opened up holes in the running game, which is just one reason why the Chiefs are so prolific there, but he also gave up very few sacks in the passing game as well. Now, if the RB has nowhere to run the offensive lineman has not done his job. If the QB spends the majority of the season on his back looking up at the sky then he obviously either didn't get the pass off to the super star receiver, didn't throw a pass that was catch-able or was picked off.
Call me a homer, but I really don't see how Shields didn't earn his Pro Bowl appearances.

chief31
04-22-2007, 01:24 PM
at some point you have to realize that offensive lineman aren't the super stars the WRs, RBs, QB's are.You can vote on position players by numbers (stats). How do you base a vote on an offensive lineman? there are no numbers to show... so obviously, you vote for players who's name you recognize. While Shields was a great player, you can't tell me he earned EVERY SINGLE pro bowl nomination. Especially when fans are voting these players in. K.C. doesn't play in enough nationally televised games for casual fans to realize what an outstanding player Shields was. On the ballot, they see a 7,8,10,12 time pro bowler, obviously you're gonna vote for him... "he was on the ballot for a reason right?"

Show me a position player who made 12 straight Pro Bowls. It doesn't happen. Mainly because you see thier numbers and realize he had a down year, so you don't vote him in.

O-linemen make great "superstars" look bad. They make average "skill position" players look like superstars.

While I agree, that voters have no stats to evaluate a linemans performance, I requite, by saying that fans have no stats with which to evaluate O-linemen. That is why most fans believe that "skill position" players are "superstars", while linemen are extras.

How about Rhonda Moss? All the talent, in the world,( Hell, he made Duante Culpepper look good.) Yet, he has been unable to do anything for the Faiders.

How about Mike Anderson? Who?!?! Everyone knew him, for a season. or two, in Denver. But, put him behind another O-line........ Who is he now?

There are hundreds of players who appeared to play above, or below, their ability, due to the successes, or failures, of the offensive lines, that they played behind.

chief31
04-22-2007, 02:14 PM
at some point you have to realize that offensive lineman aren't the super stars the WRs, RBs, QB's are.You can vote on position players by numbers (stats). How do you base a vote on an offensive lineman? there are no numbers to show... so obviously, you vote for players who's name you recognize. While Shields was a great player, you can't tell me he earned EVERY SINGLE pro bowl nomination. Especially when fans are voting these players in. K.C. doesn't play in enough nationally televised games for casual fans to realize what an outstanding player Shields was. On the ballot, they see a 7,8,10,12 time pro bowler, obviously you're gonna vote for him... "he was on the ballot for a reason right?"

Show me a position player who made 12 straight Pro Bowls. It doesn't happen. Mainly because you see thier numbers and realize he had a down year, so you don't vote him in.


In his career, Will Shields made 223 consecutive starts. This is the third longest, in NFL history. Not to mention, he did it, playing a position that includes hitting and being hit, on nearly every play. (also, twice a year, against the cheap-shot Broncos.)

If you choose to percieve that he struggled last season, let me submit these facts, in his defense.

Will spent alot of his, on the field, time, trying to lean his coverage to the outside, in an attempt to assist some horrible play, from his right tackle. ( whoever that was, from game to game.) Thus, causing lapses in the overall pass blocking, on that side of the line.

He played, injured, through some portion of the season. It is difficult to assess the length of his injury, because, only Will knows when his health was an issue.

Larry Johnson rushed for 1800 yards. His favorite running plays, were those that went to the middle, where Will Shields is the dominant force. I believe that Larry Johnson is a talented runner, but do not believe that he is the second best runner, in the NFL. Nor, even in the top ten. The vast majority of his rushing yards, are those, created by the offensive line. (along with tight-ends and fullback.)

The fact is, that the only way to,properly, evaluate Will Shields' '06 season, is by watching his play, directly. Myself, I am a bit of an O-line enthusiast. I rewind plays, during the game, to watch several different linemen and see what they have done, on that play. More often, than not, I will do this after the game. While Will has lost a step, over the years, he makes up for that, with his knowledge of the game. His experience, gives him an edge, over the rest of the league.

Several times, last season, he had to make a choice, between allowing his man to beat him inside, to help with a defender, who was beating the OT, to the inside, or finish his block, himself and allow the OT to be beaten. This is a difficult decision to make. If you "cover your own ***" then you quarterback gets hit, sacked, maybe fumbles, maybe gets hurt, or throws an interception. Of course, if you allow your man to get away, the same results are at stake.

Will worked hard, last season, to balance these decisions. Often, he was able to slide his defender inside, to his center, for help, allowing him to move outside and aid his right tackle. Other times, you could see him waiting for the right time, to let his man free. Long enough to give his quarterback another second, in the pocket, yet soon enough to slow a blitzer, or defensive end, that has beaten the right tackle.

The offensive line is a team, within a team. One amazing O-lineman doesn't fair well, when the rest of that unit has a sub-par talent level. One poor lineman, can make an entire unit look bad. One has to understand the asignments of each individual lineman, to assess the performance of the indiviuals.

Canada
04-22-2007, 02:27 PM
Well not to disagree, and trust me I hope you're right, but 12 straight Pro Bowls out of a fourteen year career one would think has to account for something.

Nite Crowd!
His 12 Pro Bowls definitely account for something...HOF, but 14 years in the trenches is a long time and I agree that he may be losing a little bit (I do believe he is still one of the best in the league) but age takes its toll on even the great ones.

Canada
04-22-2007, 02:39 PM
Its usually not casual fans voting these guys in to the Pro Bowl...it is guys who know about football and watch football. My wife is a casual fan and has never voted for a Pro Bowl (except when I tell her to put some in and just vote for Chiefs players) The voters who spend the time to vote do it because the know and understand football and recognize what an outstanding player Shields is. I can honestly say that I believe that he earned EVERY SINGLE pro bowl that he was in. Positional players who make a lot of Pro Bowls do so because of guys like Shields...and u can't tell me that people don't vote for Manning and Brady every year because they see them on TV and all that anyone talks aobut on TV. I don't need to see the numbers to know that he is among the best at his position and that is what the Pro Bowl is for. I just wish he could keep it up until he was 58!

Chiefster
04-22-2007, 03:41 PM
All excellent points; I'd say this quoting you guys but I'll just preserve the screen real estate by saying: "Good job"! :)

chief31
04-22-2007, 04:30 PM
Yeah, I do have a tendancy to eat up some space.

wolfpack
04-22-2007, 05:50 PM
i cannot see the queen trading the best player he has ever drafted.

wolfpack
04-22-2007, 06:00 PM
a 6-10 year or worse will be hard to stomach. i dont think clark will let the queen make trades that this would happen. even if it does mean a better team 2 or 3 years down the road. season tickets are getting harder to sell now and there was at least 3 games last year that they gave big discounts to groups,ie,teachers,cops,ect. to keep from not selling out. kc wants winners now, mainly because they(we) have been told for the last 19 years we are the best. its like a nagging wife, at first you listen then you ignore it,blah,blah blah.

chief31
04-22-2007, 06:16 PM
i cannot see the queen trading the best player he has ever drafted.

While I agree, that LJ isn't going anywhere, didn't CP draft Will Shields?

Chiefster
04-22-2007, 11:19 PM
Yeah, I do have a tendancy to eat up some space.


Not that it is a bad thing; your posts are usually a pretty good read. :)

Cisco Kid
04-23-2007, 04:40 AM
He has actually slipped out of the number two spot with the retirement of Will Shields.

Thank you for pointing this out. Consideration should also be given to the cap savings the Chiefs will see with not needing to sign LJ to $80 million contract. Oh, and these moves won't bring a smile to Chiefs fans' faces next draft day?

2008 NFL DRAFT SELECTIONS/KANSAS CITY

1st (Washington)
1st (Houston)
1st (K.C.)

2nd (K.C)
2nd (San Francisco)

3rd (Buffalo)
3rd (K.C.)

Take the 2007 draft picks and team them with next year's and fill the holes.

kenny1937
04-23-2007, 02:34 PM
Not a terrible thought, but a coach in his second season, with a new team, has to do well, in the draft. His first two draft classes will make-up the, ever-important, third season team.

NFL coaches are given, somewhat of, a pass, during the first two seasons of their tenures. His third season, is the first season, that the teams accomplishments, or failures, rest, primarily, on the head coaches shoulders.

From a head coaches stanpoint, this would be a bad idea. From a team presidents stanpoint, maybe you allow your head coach an extra season, for evaluation and try this kind of scenario.

It's always fun, to hear somone elses ideas, about handling the franchise. However, we would be the "laughing-stock" of the NFL, if we fail to recieve a first-round pick, (plus) for L.J. Too bad, though, that we don't have this kind of creativity, in the front office.


Hee, Hee, nineteen years ago I couldn't spell general manager, now I are one, now you expect me to spell cratedtivity? (grin)

Chiefster
04-23-2007, 07:49 PM
Thank you for pointing this out...

Hey, it's what I do...sometimes. :D

Chiefsfan27
04-24-2007, 03:17 PM
Are you serious? your saying we can get more for a first round pick then for Larry Johnson? What the hell?

Chiefster
04-24-2007, 03:34 PM
Are you serious? your saying we can get more for a first round pick then for Larry Johnson? What the hell?


To whom are you replying to? Just wondering. :)

Chiefsfan27
04-24-2007, 03:40 PM
I'm replying to the original post with all the trades

timbok
04-24-2007, 07:42 PM
i doubt this 100%

Chiefster
04-24-2007, 07:43 PM
I'm replying to the original post with all the trades

Oh, ok; thanks for clarifying.

Cisco Kid
04-25-2007, 01:39 AM
Are you serious? your saying we can get more for a first round pick then for Larry Johnson? What the hell?

Well, for anyone who bothers to read my ramblings...it sure kind of looks as if there is some serious fire to this smoke. I won't "cloud" things up with much more than to say the breaking news is that the Chiefs have in fact been talking with six teams about a trade for LJ. The concern about trading LJ is that a team must be willing to sign him to a long term contract now. As for the low amount in return for LJ, this has a great deal to do with the direction the NFL is going regarding the RB position. Indy kind of helped move this along with their success after parting ways with E. James (Cardinals) and addressing their RB needs by using a rookie and RB by committee.

Johnson will be traded if not before or during the draft certainly after the 2007 season. K.C. can and will place the Franchise tag on LJ (if it gets that far, doubt it) and simply shop him from day one of free agency 2008. My best guess is that a trade will happen after the first round and involve some 2007 draft picks but more so the 2008.

Aside from Adrian Peterson there really isn't much in the way of quality at the RB position. Yes there are several backup types, but not much when it comes to game-backing runners. Once the teams have "missed out" on the runningbacks, they will be more open to trading for Johnson.

Chiefster
04-25-2007, 02:05 AM
Well, for anyone who bothers to read my ramblings...it sure kind of looks as if there is some serious fire to this smoke. I won't "cloud" things up with much more than to say the breaking news is that the Chiefs have in fact been talking with six teams about a trade for LJ. The concern about trading LJ is that a team must be willing to sign him to a long term contract now. As for the low amount in return for LJ, this has a great deal to do with the direction the NFL is going regarding the RB position. Indy kind of helped move this along with their success after parting ways with E. James (Cardinals) and addressing their RB needs by using a rookie and RB by committee.

Johnson will be traded if not before or during the draft certainly after the 2007 season. K.C. can and will place the Franchise tag on LJ (if it gets that far, doubt it) and simply shop him from day one of free agency 2008. My best guess is that a trade will happen after the first round and involve some 2007 draft picks but more so the 2008.

Aside from Adrian Peterson there really isn't much in the way of quality at the RB position. Yes there are several backup types, but not much when it comes to game-backing runners. Once the teams have "missed out" on the runningbacks, they will be more open to trading for Johnson.



This appears to be true as reported by Nick "the erroneous one" Athan.

Chiefs, LJ Playing Poker http://www.chiefscrowd.com/forums/images/imported/2007/04/4.jpg
Johnson headed out of KC?
By Nick Athan (http://javascript<b></b>:location.href='http://search.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=4&c=1&search=1&sskey=%22' + escape('Nick Athan') + '%22&sssiteid=115';)
Warpaint Illustrated Publisher
Posted Apr 24, 2007

As we first mentioned on our premium forum early in March, there was a possibility the Chiefs would shop All-Pro running back Larry Johnson. On Tuesday evening those reports became public, as the Chiefs have had preliminary discussions with at least four NFL teams. But will the Chiefs really trade LJ? And what is LJís end game?

Johnson is perfectly suited to excel in Herm Edwardsí offense. He does things between the tackles that few other running backs can. When he gets to the outside he thunders down the field as if shot out of a cannon. Johnson is tough, physical and runs with a chip on his shoulder as wide as the Grand Canyon.

But he doesnít block well and has had troubles catching the ball out of the backfield. Still, he does enough to make him dangerous and the Chiefs have overlooked these shortcomings, until now.

Thatís because Johnson wants to get paid. He wants to be the highest-paid running back in the NFL. He wants LaDainian Tomlinson (http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2980099) money. Two years ago, the San Diego Chargers signed Tomlinson to an eight-year contract with a street value of $65 million. In actual upfront dollars, Tomlinson received $25 million guaranteed, and it was appropriate compensation for the NFL's best running back.

What separates LT from LJ is obvious. He can run, catch, block and on occasion, throw touchdown passes. LJ can run, and in my opinion is better at it than Tomlinson. But LT earned that contract because of his versatility. LJ wants that paycheck and then some.

Does he deserve it?

To be honest, no. Especially when you factor in that he wants more money than Tomlinson. In fact, we hear that heís asked for the sun and the moon. The Chiefs are willing to pay him the moon, but reserve the right to give the sun to the rest of the players on the 53-man roster.

Once the Chiefs found out about Johnsonís latest contract demands they began spreading the word that he might be available via trade. In that time frame, according to the NFL Network, four teams have stepped up to bat - the Cleveland Browns, Tennessee Titans, Green Bay Packers and Buffalo Bills. Weíve also heard the New York Giants might be willing to talk turkey with the Chiefs.

Now the fun begins.

Chiefs President/General Manager Carl Peterson has some leverage in this deal. The Chiefs own Johnsonís rights for 2007 and will probably franchise him in 2008, when he will be 29 years old and on the downward cycle of his career.

At that point the Chiefs will have beaten him up with another 800-plus carries and received four great seasons from Johnson, all for only the value of his $8 million rookie contract. A portion of that has been voided thanks to the number of carries Johnson took last season, so letís call it $6 million instead

As a franchise running back, in 2008 Johnson will make somewhere in the neighborhood of $8 million. So for $14 million, the Chiefs get LJís prime NFL years. I call that a bargain.

Peterson knows that this weekendís NFL Draft is full of players that can fill virtually every hole on the roster if the Chiefs acquire a few more draft picks. Kansas City has needs along the offensive line, defensive line, at cornerback and wide receiver.

Imagine what the Chiefs could do if they were able to acquire three picks for Johnson - letís say a first and third this year and a second next year. They could do what the Chargers did two years ago when they traded the rights to Eli Manning (http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2984323).

The only problem is that other NFL teams arenít stupid. They know of LJís reputation and though heís beyond gifted, heís not a guy you lean on in the locker room. As long as he produces, most can live with his attitude, but sooner or later that rubs some the wrong way.

We donít know if the Chiefs have reached that point, but one thing is clear. Contract talks have taken a sharp turn, and now it appears the Chiefs will call LJís bluff.

The New England Patriots were in the same position a year ago with disgruntled wide receiver Deion Branch. They let him talk to NFL teams, and most passed, except for one. The Seattle Seahawks gave New England a first-round pick and then gave Branch $39 million and $13 million signing bonus.

The Chiefs have to hope that some team out there takes the bait on the trap theyíve set. They donít want to trade LJ, but if some other NFL team is so inclined to give the Chiefs a whopping deal in return, theyíll consider it a Royal Flush, cash in their chips and move on.

Nobody really knows what Johnson wants but one thing is certain - heís never really played things well in Kansas City. He didnít get along well with Dick Vermeil.

Once again heís misplayed his position - or has he? If he truly wants out of Kansas City as some believe, then heís playing the mega-contract card. Itís really his only play, if thatís his end game.

If he wants to remain a Chief while becoming the highest-paid back in the NFL, then I suggest he get out on the practice field with the blocking sled and push it around until he drives it into the turf every day.

When heís done with that he should catch 500 footballs every day. He wonít have to work on his running skills, because heís reached his peak in that area.

Iíve always supported Johnson, but maybe itís time he takes a long, hard look at himself and realizes that this is a team game. The only numbers that truly matter are on the scoreboard in the Super Bowl. If he canít understand that, it might be a foregone conclusion that heíll be playing for a new team sometime soon.

Maybe as soon as Saturday.

Cisco Kid
04-25-2007, 04:14 AM
Nick Athan?! I don't need his help to tell me 2 plus 2 is 4. I should charge him for reading my post!!!

Chiefster
04-25-2007, 08:42 AM
Nick Athan?! I don't need his help to tell me 2 plus 2 is 4. I should charge him for reading my post!!!


ROFL LOL!!!

That way we could fund my new contest idea. :D

wolfpack
04-25-2007, 10:17 AM
Well not to disagree, and trust me I hope you're right, but 12 straight Pro Bowls out of a fourteen year career one would think has to account for something.

Nite Crowd!
after awhile i think they,o-line, make it on their name. dont get me wrong, sheilds is good but i thought he lost a step or two last year too. i think welborn will do ok.

Chiefster
04-25-2007, 11:42 AM
after awhile i think they,o-line, make it on their name. dont get me wrong, sheilds is good but i thought he lost a step or two last year too. i think welborn will do ok.


Well you don't start all but one game in fourteen straight years in this league and do the job that Shields did without "losing a step". However, he makes up for it with experience. At least his retirement didn't just come out of nowhere like Roaf's did.

kenny1937
04-26-2007, 07:15 PM
Nick Athan?! I don't need his help to tell me 2 plus 2 is 4. I should charge him for reading my post!!!


Great post, (grin) go get him Kid, I totally agree with you!!


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