Scouts Inc. ranks our O line

[royalswin100games]

32. Kansas City Chiefs (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=kan)
Many commended the Chiefs for their selection of Branden Albert (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=11249) with the first-round pick they received in the Jared Allen (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6885) deal. This isn't meant to condemn that selection one bit, since Albert will fit in somewhere on this line and should help out immediately, but it is amazing that Kansas City didn't bring in more young O-line talent besides Albert in this past draft. Instead, the Chiefs made luxury selections to back up their present offensive stars. The thing to remember is those offensive stars can't realize their potential if the big boys up front are not doing their jobs, and asking an inexperienced quarterback to develop into a legitimate starter without adequate blocking is foolish. This is an offensive line that is going to really struggle to do its job in 2008. There just isn't much talent here, and at this point, the aging Brian Waters (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5349) is the only lineman who can be considered an above-average football player at this level. If Albert can make it at left tackle, Damion McIntosh (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5112) should be adequate at right tackle. He doesn't belong on the left side, where he played last year. Optimistically, that adds up to three acceptable starters, but obviously, more are needed.


Hope this turns out better than what they expect...

[milkman]

These guys are idiots anyway.

McIntosh has no business on the right side.

His only position is LT, because he's a finesse blocker with no base.

Trying to drive block generally larger, stronger LDE's, or holding his position as a pass blocker is going to be extremely difficult for him unless he hits the weight room and adds some strength to his legs.

[royalswin100games]

Do you think Albert will keep RDE's from getting to Croyle's blind side?

[milkman]

I think there'll be a learning curve, but I honestly feel he'll be better than McIntosh from the first game.

Mac is only adequate at LT.

He gave up, I believe, 6 sacks in 14 games last year, and has only one season in his career in which he's given up fewer.

I think Albert can match that in his first season, and he's a far better run blocker.

[texaschief]

If Barry Richardson is already pushing McIntosh for playing time at RT, perhaps we found two O-line starters in this past draft. In doing so, I think the line would be best suited if McIntosh were to move to RG. If that could happen, our line conceivably could take a monumental leap forward! But i too don't think McIntosh till make a good RT. It's either LT or guard for that guy.

[chief31]

These guys are idiots anyway.

McIntosh has no business on the right side.

His only position is LT, because he's a finesse blocker with no base.

Trying to drive block generally larger, stronger LDE's, or holding his position as a pass blocker is going to be extremely difficult for him unless he hits the weight room and adds some strength to his legs.

I think Tosh is better suited for RT, in this case, because he can't run-block. If Albert stays at LT, then we actually have a side to run toward, with Waters already over there.

Pass-protecting against the lesser of two pass-rushers, (generally, the better pass-rusher is at RDE) should play to his advantage.

But then, if a late-round rookie OT picked by Herm is challenging him there, then he must be looking like complete garbage.:D

[DrunkHillbilly]

I think Tosh is better suited for RT, in this case, because he can't run-block. If Albert stays at LT, then we actually have a side to run toward, with Waters already over there.

Pass-protecting against the lesser of two pass-rushers, (generally, the better pass-rusher is at RDE) should play to his advantage.

But then, if a late-round rookie OT picked by Herm is challenging him there, then he must be looking like complete garbage.:D
This is the problem!! We need someone who can protect as well as run block. Tosh has proven he is not that guy!! Not to mention our starting RB prefers to go left more than he does right!

[CHIEFCANNON]

At this time of year... that black hole void where we are starving for anything about the Chiefs... I guess this works. But, I have to agree, IMHO< that we should have picked some guys that were just sitting there in the third and fouth,fifth rounds that can play O-line center or guard and were nasty,scrappy players.

[Coach]

At this time of year... that black hole void where we are starving for anything about the Chiefs... I guess this works. But, I have to agree, IMHO< that we should have picked some guys that were just sitting there in the third and fouth,fifth rounds that can play O-line center or guard and were nasty,scrappy players.

This would have been the best strategy if we were trying to win a championship this year. But we're not. They are building and took the best players on the board. I like how our draft shaped up. I just wish they would have addressed some of the o-line issues in free agency. That is where they really screwed up and I think they would acknowledge that.

[Seek]

At this time of year... that black hole void where we are starving for anything about the Chiefs... I guess this works. But, I have to agree, IMHO< that we should have picked some guys that were just sitting there in the third and fouth,fifth rounds that can play O-line center or guard and were nasty,scrappy players.

That is when you start reaching for players. You have to pick the best players on your board. If it ends up you have to 2 pro-bowl running backs or QB's, you trade one for more picks.

There is a lot more holes on this team than OL. We also filled needs at other postions instead of reaching on players like Will Svitek who are projects.

We filled a need at TE with a blocking tight end to replace Jason Dunn, and also may have found a starter at WR, or at least a #3 receiver.

[milkman]

I think Tosh is better suited for RT, in this case, because he can't run-block. If Albert stays at LT, then we actually have a side to run toward, with Waters already over there.

Pass-protecting against the lesser of two pass-rushers, (generally, the better pass-rusher is at RDE) should play to his advantage.

But then, if a late-round rookie OT picked by Herm is challenging him there, then he must be looking like complete garbage.:D

I think that Herb Taylor would be better than MacIntosh at RT or RG.

This is a run oriented team, and we need run blockers all along the line.

MacIntosh would get owned BY DTs at guard.

At RT, not only is he a liability in the ground game, he'd also give up sacks because he can't hold his block against the more physical RDE.

Taylor showed me something in his limited opportunities last year.

He showed equal athleticism to Mac, and he showed he has a good base and he uses leverage really well.

I think, though, by mid season, we'll have Richardson starting at RT, and Chris McDuffie at RG.

[Chiefster]

I just want Croyle to get the protection necessary to have an opportunity to grow into the starting job.

[chief31]

I think that Herb Taylor would be better than MacIntosh at RT or RG.

This is a run oriented team, and we need run blockers all along the line.

MacIntosh would get owned BY DTs at guard.

At RT, not only is he a liability in the ground game, he'd also give up sacks because he can't hold his block against the more physical RDE.

Taylor showed me something in his limited opportunities last year.

He showed equal athleticism to Mac, and he showed he has a good base and he uses leverage really well.

I think, though, by mid season, we'll have Richardson starting at RT, and Chris McDuffie at RG.

Quite possible. Just shows me that we don't have anyone on the offensive line that is worth a ****.

Obviously, we have Waters. And we all hope that Albert can handle LT. But beyond that, we don't have much to hang our hats on. And I don't even trust Albert.

Even if Albert is the second-coming of Willie Roaf, we still have major issues all over the line.

But I am sure that "It'll be... O.K."

[Canada]

Quite possible. Just shows me that we don't have anyone on the offensive line that is worth a ****.

Obviously, we have Waters. And we all hope that Albert can handle LT. But beyond that, we don't have much to hang our hats on. And I don't even trust Albert.

Even if Albert is the second-coming of Willie Roaf, we still have major issues all over the line.

But I am sure that "It'll be... O.K."

Oh man, for a second there I thought you were gonna say our line was in trouble. Scared me a little!! :bananen_smilies046:

[milkman]

Quite possible. Just shows me that we don't have anyone on the offensive line that is worth a ****.

Obviously, we have Waters. And we all hope that Albert can handle LT. But beyond that, we don't have much to hang our hats on. And I don't even trust Albert.

Even if Albert is the second-coming of Willie Roaf, we still have major issues all over the line.

But I am sure that "It'll be... O.K."

We do have issues all over the line.

I, however, do have confidence in Albert.
I also have confidence in Niswanger, which takes care of the primary isues from LT to center.

The problem I see is on the right, at both RT and RG.
If McIntosh and Jones are starters, then quite frankly, from what I have seen, we're ****ed.

And for all this competition and "We're going to play the young guys" from the Chiefs, I don't trust them to actually follow through with that all along the O-Line.

I don't believe they have the balls to play 4 rookies or first year starters along the line, even if those young guys are head and shoulders better than the expeienced players they should be replacing.

[chief31]

We do have issues all over the line.

I, however, do have confidence in Albert.
I also have confidence in Niswanger, which takes care of the primary isues from LT to center.

The problem I see is on the right, at both RT and RG.
If McIntosh and Jones are starters, then quite frankly, from what I have seen, we're ****ed.

And for all this competition and "We're going to play the young guys" from the Chiefs, I don't trust them to actually follow through with that all along the O-Line.

I don't believe they have the balls to play 4 rookies or first year starters along the line, even if those young guys are head and shoulders better than the expeienced players they should be replacing.

We'll have to wait and see, but I don't trust them to start the best guy, either way. Not that I think we have the talent to cover the positions anyway. But I really haven't seen much of the younger guys.

By the way, glad to have you back here at the crowd. I like having folks to argue with.:D And you do a pretty good job of it.

[milkman]

We'll have to wait and see, but I don't trust them to start the best guy, either way. Not that I think we have the talent to cover the positions anyway. But I really haven't seen much of the younger guys.

By the way, glad to have you back here at the crowd. I like having folks to argue with.:D And you do a pretty good job of it.

A good argument is always enjoyable, as long as you don't take it personal.

I'm allowed to though.;)

[Chiefster]

A good argument is always enjoyable, as long as you don't take it personal.

I'm allowed to though.;)

Well personally I think you're wrong. :D

[rbedgood]

Well personally I think you're wrong. :D

But we all know you're a bit senile...so when did what you think start to really count? :lol:

[tornadospotter]

But we all know you're a bit senile...so when did what you think start to really count? :lol:
:wheelchair: :11: stop picking on the old farts, we will beat you down with our canes!!!! Wait I don't have a cane! :mob:

[Dyno-Mite]

Milkman is absolutely right because Damion completely has no business starting on the right side.The combination of Damion and B-dub was already a dominate force on the left side during last season.We need to sign a dominate right guard because we already have a answer at right tackle while have Prince Albert.Niswanger is continuosly showing everyone flashes of the talent that he has at center.I just don't agree with Damion on the right side.That sucks.

[royalswin100games]

Genius... pure genius.

[DrunkHillbilly]

Milkman is absolutely right because Damion completely has no business starting on the right side.The combination of Damion and B-dub was already a dominate force on the left side during last season.We need to sign a dominate right guard because we already have a answer at right tackle while have Prince Albert.Niswanger is continuosly showing everyone flashes of the talent that he has at center.I just don't agree with Damion on the right side.That sucks.
:sign0153: HUH??????? To say that we had ANYTHING dominant on last years Oline is ridiculous!!!!

[DMN]

"Dominant" is not the first word that comes to mind in last years blind side protection. With Cottam on the left side at TE and Albert and Waters at T and G maybe we will get a chance to see some big runs to the left. Not to mention if we utilize a fullback. Just that one guy to get to the second level to make the one block that turns a would be 5 yard run into a 12 yarder. Which I think that we will in the interest of playing manage the clock football. We can only hope that the amount of criticism that our o line is taking right now will fire them up to prove us wrong.





Milkman is absolutely right because Damion completely has no business starting on the right side.The combination of Damion and B-dub was already a dominate force on the left side during last season.We need to sign a dominate right guard because we already have a answer at right tackle while have Prince Albert.Niswanger is continuosly showing everyone flashes of the talent that he has at center.I just don't agree with Damion on the right side.That sucks.

[Three7s]

:sign0153: HUH??????? To say that we had ANYTHING dominant on last years Oline is ridiculous!!!!
You do realize that this is Grbac you're talking too?

[milkman]

:sign0153: HUH??????? To say that we had ANYTHING dominant on last years Oline is ridiculous!!!!

I hadn't seen GrBac before, and I thought he was going along great on that post when he stated I was right.

Then he had to go and put BA on the right side, and use the word "dominant" in reference to to any part of our O-Line.

[DrunkHillbilly]

You do realize that this is Grbac you're talking too?
The avatar say's it all!!!!!!!!:yahoo: :D

[milkman]

Well personally I think you're wrong. :D

Stop thinking.

You'll hurt yourself.

:D

[CHIEFCANNON]

Conceptually, I would agree with your comments... but, when talent is dropping down the board and was rated in the higher rounds ... you can't tell me that's reaching.
Richardson was rated to go higher than 6 did we reach for him? We had a good draft ... we settled with people who are OK! at Oline MCIntosh will be replaced IMHO.. and play back up and leave the team.
The talent was on the board... that's not reaching... it's filling a hole that made you suck as one of the worst teams offensively in the NFL.
Why do we have 3-4 fullbacks on the roster... isn't that reaching.

[Chief from the North]

:wheelchair: :11: stop picking on the old farts, we will beat you down with our canes!!!! Wait I don't have a cane! :mob:

Just use your walker as a battering ram :)

[milkman]

Conceptually, I would agree with your comments... but, when talent is dropping down the board and was rated in the higher rounds ... you can't tell me that's reaching.
Richardson was rated to go higher than 6 did we reach for him? We had a good draft ... we settled with people who are OK! at Oline MCIntosh will be replaced IMHO.. and play back up and leave the team.
The talent was on the board... that's not reaching... it's filling a hole that made you suck as one of the worst teams offensively in the NFL.
Why do we have 3-4 fullbacks on the roster... isn't that reaching.

No.

Reaching would be picking a player well ahead of players that are more talented than he is.

If we had picked Ryan Clady at 5, that would be reaching.

[chief31]

Conceptually, I would agree with your comments... but, when talent is dropping down the board and was rated in the higher rounds ... you can't tell me that's reaching.
Richardson was rated to go higher than 6 did we reach for him? We had a good draft ... we settled with people who are OK! at Oline MCIntosh will be replaced IMHO.. and play back up and leave the team.
The talent was on the board... that's not reaching... it's filling a hole that made you suck as one of the worst teams offensively in the NFL.
Why do we have 3-4 fullbacks on the roster... isn't that reaching.


Reaching can also be taking three backups in the third round, while there were several guys who were likely starters available. We had a sub-par draft, and got rid of our young team MVP to do it.

I'm psyched!

[DrunkHillbilly]

Reaching can also be taking three backups in the third round, while there were several guys who were likely starters available. We had a sub-par draft, and got rid of our young team MVP to do it.

I'm psyched!
:sign0153: Sub par draft?????? Your the first I've heard say this whether it be by fans, players or analysts!

[royalswin100games]

:sign0153: Sub par draft?????? Your the first I've heard say this whether it be by fans, players or analysts!

Would we have obtained the talent we did if we wouldn't have let go arguably the best DE in the league?

[DrunkHillbilly]

Would we have obtained the talent we did if we wouldn't have let go arguably the best DE in the league?
I'm not sure. Are you asking me if we would have drafted Dorsey at #5 if we still had Allen? If you are, my answer is YES!! What does this have to do with the quality of our overall draft this season?

[royalswin100games]

I'm not sure. Are you asking me if we would have drafted Dorsey at #5 if we still had Allen? If you are, my answer is YES!! What does this have to do with the quality of our overall draft this season?

We wouldn't have Albert if we didn't trade Allen. We also got the two third rounders and a sixth rounder. I can't remember off the top of my head what we did with those picks but they contributed to our draft success as well. I don't think that our draft would have been as hyped up if we didn't let him go, which is unfortunate IMO.

[DrunkHillbilly]

We wouldn't have Albert if we didn't trade Allen. We also got the two third rounders and a sixth rounder. I can't remember off the top of my head what we did with those picks but they contributed to our draft success as well. I don't think that our draft would have been as hyped up if we didn't let him go, which is unfortunate IMO.
Regardless of "why" we got who we got, our draft was good!! We addressed more than just the Allen position IMO. Allen did not want to be in KC any longer!! He had voiced his opinion on more than one occassion and to my knowledge, while he never said he wanted out for sure, he said enough to let it be known he wasn't happy! What's done is done and the draft made us younger and while I am not expecting anything much more than a repeat of last season, we helped our team for the future strictly from an on field perspective. If we could address the QB position now, we would be a much improved team even though the O line is still in need of some help!

[royalswin100games]

Regardless of "why" we got who we got, our draft was good!! We addressed more than just the Allen position IMO. Allen did not want to be in KC any longer!! He had voiced his opinion on more than one occassion and to my knowledge, while he never said he wanted out for sure, he said enough to let it be known he wasn't happy! What's done is done and the draft made us younger and while I am not expecting anything much more than a repeat of last season, we helped our team for the future strictly from an on field perspective. If we could address the QB position now, we would be a much improved team even though the O line is still in need of some help!

We'll see what Brodie does. I don't like the fact that he's going to be the fall guy with our swiss cheese O line. He has the physical capability to be good as long as he makes good decisions with the ball.

I agree with everything else you posted.

[DrunkHillbilly]

We'll see what Brodie does. I don't like the fact that he's going to be the fall guy with our swiss cheese O line. He has the physical capability to be good as long as he makes good decisions with the ball.

I agree with everything else you posted.
We'll see but that is part of my problem with him. He doesn't make good decisions!!! He let's the fact that he has a strong arm cloud his judgement therefore leading to bad decisions!!!

[Three7s]

We'll see but that is part of my problem with him. He doesn't make good decisions!!! He let's the fact that he has a strong arm cloud his judgement therefore leading to bad decisions!!!
From what I've heard, he still has that problem, though whether that's due to bad protection or what, I don't know. I'll give more of an opinion on it when I see him during pre-season.

[Chiefster]

:sign0153: Sub par draft?????? Your the first I've heard say this whether it be by fans, players or analysts!


That is the chief31 we've all come to know and love....well, to know. :D

[DrunkHillbilly]

That is the chief31 we've all come to know and love....well, to know. :D
As you well know, 31 and I had our share of heated conversations because I was so negative and pesamistic but to say we had a sub par draft is stretchin it a bit!!

[chief31]

:sign0153: Sub par draft?????? Your the first I've heard say this whether it be by fans, players or analysts!

It seems as simple as can be to me. Our outstanding need was all over the offensive line. With OT being the most glaring particular need.

We got the best OG in the draft class, (where OT was the position that was so full of talent) and we are going to play him out of position. What else did we do to improve the worst o-line in the NFL?

Beyond that, we got what should be a top-notch DT, for what was clearly a top-notch DE. At the absolute best, I call that a push.

So, we have a OG who probably won't reach full potential because he is going to play a much more difficult position, in a much more difficult league. And we got a starting CB. Everything else was basically a bunch of backups/long-shots.

All that the experts see in our draft is a pair of first round picks, that included the #5 overall pick.

[rbedgood]

Hey Eeyore...its the middle of the summer. It's not raining, it is sunshiney and beautiful. Smile a bit...ehhh?

Anyhow you are forgetting Flowers...and your completely writing off the later picks in the draft. Now I'm not saying Albert is going to work out as a Tackle. However for a team that only has 2 known quantities on offense (LJ & TG)...Bowe is still too early in career to be called a known quantity. Albert is a great pick for LJ. Even if he isn't a great tackle, he'll lead the way in the running game for years to come. With that being said the left side of the line should be dominate in the run game (Waters & Albert). The question then is the passing game. Well frankly it can't really be worse than last year?! So essentially if you called Dorsey for Allen a push (that's what I read above) and you can agree at the least Albert will help return the running game to glory, then the additional picks of Flowers and Charles have to make this better than a sub-par draft.

I wouldn't call it the best draft ever...personally I think they should've gone for another O-lineman instead of Charles, but that would be drafting based on needs. I don't think Kolby Smith was such a bad backup to LJ. I think the idea of drafting another RB because you can't keep them healthy is backwards...draft a better O-line so you can keep your top dawgs healthy.

Oh well...my team sucks at drafting for the past decade too...so misery loves company!!

[DrunkHillbilly]

It seems as simple as can be to me. Our outstanding need was all over the offensive line. With OT being the most glaring particular need.

We got the best OG in the draft class, (where OT was the position that was so full of talent) and we are going to play him out of position. What else did we do to improve the worst o-line in the NFL?

Beyond that, we got what should be a top-notch DT, for what was clearly a top-notch DE. At the absolute best, I call that a push.

So, we have a OG who probably won't reach full potential because he is going to play a much more difficult position, in a much more difficult league. And we got a starting CB. Everything else was basically a bunch of backups/long-shots.

All that the experts see in our draft is a pair of first round picks, that included the #5 overall pick.
The bottom line is that when you have a high draft pick, you either trade down with someone who you know is going to take a guy you want or you take the best players on the board! Like it or not, Allen is gone and Dorsey will fill that need in one way or another. As for the O line, they took who they felt was going to be able to step in right away. Picking O lineman later in the draft most of the time is just reaching to find a diamond in the rough. There are soooooo many FA lineman out there that have experience and could do every bit as well as any rookie. As I have said before, there are only a hand full of lineman whether it be offensive or defensive that stand apart from the rest. Some excell and the others, well, their all just players that could switch teams and nothing would change! Yea, time together as a unit and chemistry matter but for the most part, they are all the same guy. Your opinion is your opinion but I find it odd that other than you, I have yet to find anyone anywhere say our draft was "sub par".

[Three7s]

The bottom line is that when you have a high draft pick, you either trade down with someone who you know is going to take a guy you want or you take the best players on the board! Like it or not, Allen is gone and Dorsey will fill that need in one way or another. As for the O line, they took who they felt was going to be able to step in right away. Picking O lineman later in the draft most of the time is just reaching to find a diamond in the rough. There are soooooo many FA lineman out there that have experience and could do every bit as well as any rookie. As I have said before, there are only a hand full of lineman whether it be offensive or defensive that stand apart from the rest. Some excell and the others, well, their all just players that could switch teams and nothing would change! Yea, time together as a unit and chemistry matter but for the most part, they are all the same guy. Your opinion is your opinion but I find it odd that other than you, I have yet to find anyone anywhere say our draft was "sub par".
Don't worry about it, he just likes being pessimistic as a form of reverse psychology!

[hermhater]

I still don't understand peoples argument that we got Dorsey out of the JA trade.

He would have been at number five had we traded or not.

Please stop using this argument to justify the JA trade, it holds no water, and I am sick of hearing it from folks here in KC, I don't need to hear it from people in cyberspace as well.

[DrunkHillbilly]

I still don't understand peoples argument that we got Dorsey out of the JA trade.

He would have been at number five had we traded or not.

Please stop using this argument to justify the JA trade, it holds no water, and I am sick of hearing it from folks here in KC, I don't need to hear it from people in cyberspace as well.
Good point!!:sign0098: We were taking him regardless!!! Unless of course someone would have been willing to trade but that didn't happen.

[Seek]

I still don't understand peoples argument that we got Dorsey out of the JA trade.

He would have been at number five had we traded or not.

Please stop using this argument to justify the JA trade, it holds no water, and I am sick of hearing it from folks here in KC, I don't need to hear it from people in cyberspace as well.

I think the point people are trying to make is that Dorsey will now fill a need where we made a need on the defensive line.

Yes we would have drafted him at 5 regardless of Jared, but the hole Jared left is now more of a wash with Dorsey. Drafting Dorsey voided the hole by Jared and the Albert pick was getting back on track to filling other needs already there.

[chief31]

The bottom line is that when you have a high draft pick, you either trade down with someone who you know is going to take a guy you want or you take the best players on the board! Like it or not, Allen is gone and Dorsey will fill that need in one way or another. As for the O line, they took who they felt was going to be able to step in right away. Picking O lineman later in the draft most of the time is just reaching to find a diamond in the rough. There are soooooo many FA lineman out there that have experience and could do every bit as well as any rookie. As I have said before, there are only a hand full of lineman whether it be offensive or defensive that stand apart from the rest. Some excell and the others, well, their all just players that could switch teams and nothing would change! Yea, time together as a unit and chemistry matter but for the most part, they are all the same guy. Your opinion is your opinion but I find it odd that other than you, I have yet to find anyone anywhere say our draft was "sub par".

So the Patriots could have taken a QB with their first round pick, and as long as it was "the best player available", that would have been a great move?

There are variations to how sternly you stick to your boards. You don't just take the player that you feel is the best available, becuase if you already happen to have three great guys at his position, then there is a good chance that you will wind-up having to cut him, or one of the others. Meanwhile, you are left digging through the rest of the leagues garbage for starters at other positions. (Chiefs' new o-line)

They decided to address one of the three starting position holes on the o-line, (four, for those who hate Tosh) and really did nothing for the depth in any of those areas.

The fact is that every pick in the draft is a gamble. Year-in and year-out, it tends to look like every team was completely stupid, when evaluating draftees, as so many 3rd/4th/5th/6th round picks wind up being so much better than most of the top-ten picks in the draft.

If you are going to take that kind of gamble, and there is someone at the position that you need, who is close, why not gamble for something that you can use, instead of an area that you already have covered?

And we didn't move-down, nor just take the BPA in the first round, we moved up, to take the OG ahead of the OT in an attempt to fill the OT hole.

Sounds strange like that, doesn't it?:D

As for the later picks, they are late picks. How much better can the late picks look, than the next teams 5th/6th/7th rounders?

[hermhater]

I think the point people are trying to make is that Dorsey will now fill a need where we made a need on the defensive line.

Yes we would have drafted him at 5 regardless of Jared, but the hole Jared left is now more of a wash with Dorsey. Drafting Dorsey voided the hole by Jared and the Albert pick was getting back on track to filling other needs already there.

I agree with your first statement, sort of.

Dorsey will fill a hole (or two) on the defensive line.

But the second part doesn't make sense.

Drafting Dorsey didn't voided the hole by Jared and the Albert...

???

[Seek]

I agree with your first statement, sort of.

Dorsey will fill a hole (or two) on the defensive line.

But the second part doesn't make sense.

Drafting Dorsey didn't voided the hole by Jared and the Albert...

???

It didn't void it, but it did take some of the sting away from trading Jared.

[milkman]

It didn't void it, but it did take some of the sting away from trading Jared.

What Dorsey does is command double teams in the middle, allowing the DEs and LBs to make plays.

Allen didn't command double teams on every play, Dorsey will, and because of that, the rest of the defense enjoys the benefits.

I would love to have Allen lining up beside him, but if it came right down to it, I would've traded Allen straight up for the chance to draft Dorsey.

[milkman]

Reaching can also be taking three backups in the third round, while there were several guys who were likely starters available. We had a sub-par draft, and got rid of our young team MVP to do it.

I'm psyched!

Yeah you can grab starters, who are players that aren't as good as the "backups" that were picked.

Of course, that is the kind of draft that leads to mediocrity.

I'd rather pick "backups" who can be a part of a rebuilding project that eventually leads to making us actual SB compettitors.

[milkman]

I'm not sure. Are you asking me if we would have drafted Dorsey at #5 if we still had Allen? If you are, my answer is YES!! What does this have to do with the quality of our overall draft this season?

I disagree.

If we didn't have that 17th pick in the draft to go along with #5, we more than likely would have taken Ryan Clady or Albert at 5, unless we could have found a tradedown partner.

But with a tradedown, we wouldn't have been in position to take Dorsey.

[milkman]

From what I've heard, he still has that problem, though whether that's due to bad protection or what, I don't know. I'll give more of an opinion on it when I see him during pre-season.

Generally speaking, QBs with guns tend to be bad decision makers until they learn that the talent level in the NFL is too good for them to simply rely on their arm strength to make up for bad decisions.

[milkman]

It seems as simple as can be to me. Our outstanding need was all over the offensive line. With OT being the most glaring particular need.

We got the best OG in the draft class, (where OT was the position that was so full of talent) and we are going to play him out of position. What else did we do to improve the worst o-line in the NFL?

Bob Bicknell said it best.

Branden Albert has tackle's body who played guard in college.

An ideal LT is athletic (Albert was an all state BB player in high scchool), has quick feet (Mike Mayock said he has "Dancer's feet, an apt description, cause he looked like he could perform ballet), a long reach (Only Ryan Clady has longer arms among the O-Linemen in this draft), and can move well in space (This kid is really graceful and fluid in space).

And the tackle talent was more at RT than LT.
In this draft, the only players that will be successful LTs long term are Albert, Chris Williams, and maybe Ryan Clady (questionable, since that kid is dumber than a box of rocks), and I fully expect Albert to be the best of them.

I am not just saying this about Albert because we picked him, and because in the two weeks before the draft, draft "gurus" started talking him up.

I picked Albert as a tackle in a mock draft for the Steelers two months before the actual draft.


Beyond that, we got what should be a top-notch DT, for what was clearly a top-notch DE. At the absolute best, I call that a push.

Absolutely not a push.

Dorsey does more for the rest of the defense every snap that Allen ever could.

And, frankly, elite DTs are more rare than elite DEs.


So, we have a OG who probably won't reach full potential because he is going to play a much more difficult position, in a much more difficult league. And we got a starting CB. Everything else was basically a bunch of backups/long-shots.

All that the experts see in our draft is a pair of first round picks, that included the #5 overall pick.

Actually, moving Albert to LT is exactly what needed to be done in order for him to reach his full potential.

Again, you want to find players that can lead you back to mediocrity.

No thanks. we've done mediocrity, and I, for one, am sick of it.

[DrunkHillbilly]

So the Patriots could have taken a QB with their first round pick, and as long as it was "the best player available", that would have been a great move?

There are variations to how sternly you stick to your boards. You don't just take the player that you feel is the best available, becuase if you already happen to have three great guys at his position, then there is a good chance that you will wind-up having to cut him, or one of the others. Meanwhile, you are left digging through the rest of the leagues garbage for starters at other positions. (Chiefs' new o-line)

They decided to address one of the three starting position holes on the o-line, (four, for those who hate Tosh) and really did nothing for the depth in any of those areas.

The fact is that every pick in the draft is a gamble. Year-in and year-out, it tends to look like every team was completely stupid, when evaluating draftees, as so many 3rd/4th/5th/6th round picks wind up being so much better than most of the top-ten picks in the draft.

If you are going to take that kind of gamble, and there is someone at the position that you need, who is close, why not gamble for something that you can use, instead of an area that you already have covered?

And we didn't move-down, nor just take the BPA in the first round, we moved up, to take the OG ahead of the OT in an attempt to fill the OT hole.

Sounds strange like that, doesn't it?:D

As for the later picks, they are late picks. How much better can the late picks look, than the next teams 5th/6th/7th rounders?
Are you trying to tell me that if Allen was still here we wouldn't have drafted Dorsey? Regardless of who we had, Dorsey was getting drafted by the Chiefs because he was the best player on the board. By the way, who has three great players at any one position besides WR and that might be stretchin it.?? Also, we didn't move ANYWHERE with out 1st pick in the first round!

[DrunkHillbilly]

I disagree.

If we didn't have that 17th pick in the draft to go along with #5, we more than likely would have taken Ryan Clady or Albert at 5, unless we could have found a tradedown partner.

But with a tradedown, we wouldn't have been in position to take Dorsey.
I couldn't disagree more!!!! With Allen and Dorsey, the Chiefs would have had one, if not the most feared pass rushes in the game!!!! The only way we don't draft Dorsey under those circumstances is that if we had a trade partner.(another team)

[milkman]

I couldn't disagree more!!!! With Allen and Dorsey, the Chiefs would have had one, if not the most feared pass rushes in the game!!!! The only way we don't draft Dorsey under those circumstances is that if we had a trade partner.(another team)

I think this team had one priority going into thsi draft.

Get O-Line help in the first round.

We'll never agree on this, but I have no doubt that Dorsey would be a Saint right now if we didn't have that 2nd first round pick.

[DrunkHillbilly]

I think this team had one priority going into thsi draft.

Get O-Line help in the first round.

We'll never agree on this, but I have no doubt that Dorsey would be a Saint right now if we didn't have that 2nd first round pick.
Look, I don't like CP either but there is no way in hell that ANY GM takes Clady or Albert ahead of Dorsey regardless of how many first round picks they have. Personally, I think Clady would have been a reach. Albert, the jury is still out on him in my book but we'll see. Let's just say your scenario happened. IMO, they would have taken Gholston before Clady. By the way, it was the 15th pick not 17.:D Anyway, it's done and over with. Now we have to worry about a miriad of other things before the season starts. I sure hope they stock up that left side since that is where LJ likes to run. If they do that, we may be able to get a first down or two per game!!

[milkman]

Look, I don't like CP either but there is no way in hell that ANY GM takes Clady or Albert ahead of Dorsey regardless of how many first round picks they have. Personally, I think Clady would have been a reach. Albert, the jury is still out on him in my book but we'll see. Let's just say your scenario happened. IMO, they would have taken Gholston before Clady. By the way, it was the 15th pick not 17.:D Anyway, it's done and over with. Now we have to worry about a miriad of other things before the season starts. I sure hope they stock up that left side since that is where LJ likes to run. If they do that, we may be able to get a first down or two per game!!

Like I said, we'll never agree on this.

They went into the draft with the 17th pick, and had that sitting there when they used their 5th overall to select Dorsey.

They traded into the 15th pick later.

My post reflects what I believe their thought process was at the time they were making that selection of Dorsey.

[Dyno-Mite]

:sign0153: HUH??????? To say that we had ANYTHING dominant on last years Oline is ridiculous!!!!




I didn't mention that our O-line was dominant.I mentioned that B-dub and Damion formed a dominate force on the left side during last season.Herm's screws **** up now by moving Damion to the right side which will put Damion in a more worse situation.

[royalswin100games]

I didn't mention that our O-line was dominant.I mentioned that B-dub and Damion formed a dominate force on the left side during last season.Herm's screws **** up now by moving Damion to the right side which will put Damion in a more worse situation.

Explain yourself... if you can. Tell us why McIntosh would be a better LT.

[Dyno-Mite]

Explain yourself... if you can. Tell us why McIntosh would be a better LT.




There are many reasons.Damion and B-dub formed a strong friendship not only on the field but in the locker room and elsewhere.B-dub developed Damion into a better player.Damion has the potential to be another Willie Roaf if he stays on the left side.He does wear the number 77# of that in which Willie Roaf wore.Put it this way.Damion has more familiarty of the left side rather then the right side.He knows he scheme better and would just simply rather be suited to stay next to B-dub instead of playing by a...............who the F*** is our right guard?!!

[royalswin100games]

There are many reasons.Damion and B-dub formed a strong friendship not only on the field but in the locker room and elsewhere.B-dub developed Damion into a better player.

Where did you get this information?

Damion has the potential to be another Willie Roaf if he stays on the left side.He does wear the number 77# of that in which Willie Roaf wore.Put it this way.Damion has more familiarty of the left side rather then the right side.He knows he scheme better and would just simply rather be suited to stay next to B-dub instead of playing by a...............who the F*** is our right guard?!!

What scheme are you referring to? I guess the Roaf comment is an opinion.

[rbedgood]

What scheme are you referring to? I guess the Roaf comment is an opinion.

You're trying to have a rational debate with the court jester...

[milkman]

There are many reasons.Damion and B-dub formed a strong friendship not only on the field but in the locker room and elsewhere.B-dub developed Damion into a better player.Damion has the potential to be another Willie Roaf if he stays on the left side.He does wear the number 77# of that in which Willie Roaf wore.Put it this way.Damion has more familiarty of the left side rather then the right side.He knows he scheme better and would just simply rather be suited to stay next to B-dub instead of playing by a...............who the F*** is our right guard?!!

I want some of whatever you're smoking.

McIntosh gave up 7.5 sacks last year, and he missed time, as he does every year, because he clearly has a glass vagina.

As a run blocker, he could barely stay in the way of his man, or to be frank, so there there is no misunderstanding, he sucks ***.

And Waters played at a level below his normal standards, and I don't think it's a coincidence that he did it with McIntosh lined up alongside of him.

Nor do I think it's any coincidence that McIntosh has been part of some of the worst O-Lines in the NFL in the last ten years.

Top of the line LTs don't hit the FA market.
Teams pay them what they are worth.

There's a reason that McIntosh has been moved from LT to guard in the past, and that the Chiefs are now attempting to move him to RT, an experiment that seems destined for failure.

There's a reason that he's been a FA 3 times in his career.

He sucks ***.

[milkman]

You're trying to have a rational debate with the court jester...

I've just been reading some of his posts elsewhere, as well as in this thread, and I believe that you've just insulted court jesters everywhere.

[Dyno-Mite]

These guys are idiots anyway.

McIntosh has no business on the right side.

His only position is LT, because he's a finesse blocker with no base.

Trying to drive block generally larger, stronger LDE's, or holding his position as a pass blocker is going to be extremely difficult for him unless he hits the weight room and adds some strength to his legs.



Weren't you one of the bigtime supporters for Damion at left tackle?!:character0030:

[Chiefster]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I've said this in times past and it bears repeating: "I love this thread!" :D

[royalswin100games]

You're trying to have a rational debate with the court jester...

What was I thinking? :sign0153: :D


I've just been reading some of his posts elsewhere, as well as in this thread, and I believe that you've just insulted court jesters everywhere.

:bananen_smilies046:

[DrunkHillbilly]

There are many reasons.Damion and B-dub formed a strong friendship not only on the field but in the locker room and elsewhere.B-dub developed Damion into a better player.Damion has the potential to be another Willie Roaf if he stays on the left side.He does wear the number 77# of that in which Willie Roaf wore.Put it this way.Damion has more familiarty of the left side rather then the right side.He knows he scheme better and would just simply rather be suited to stay next to B-dub instead of playing by a...............who the F*** is our right guard?!!
WOW!!!!!!! Have another:drunkhb: !!!!!!!!!!!!

[chief31]

Yeah you can grab starters, who are players that aren't as good as the "backups" that were picked.

Of course, that is the kind of draft that leads to mediocrity.

I'd rather pick "backups" who can be a part of a rebuilding project that eventually leads to making us actual SB compettitors.

Yeah, lots of teams win Super Bowls without offensive linemen.

We're picking backups that could, one day, maybe, be something, if...

Instead odf guys who could be something right now and one day if...

If you'd rather have a team of RBs and no blockers, then you were in heaven last season, right?


Bob Bicknell said it best.

Branden Albert has tackle's body who played guard in college.

An ideal LT is athletic (Albert was an all state BB player in high scchool), has quick feet (Mike Mayock said he has "Dancer's feet, an apt description, cause he looked like he could perform ballet), a long reach (Only Ryan Clady has longer arms among the O-Linemen in this draft), and can move well in space (This kid is really graceful and fluid in space).

And the tackle talent was more at RT than LT.
In this draft, the only players that will be successful LTs long term are Albert, Chris Williams, and maybe Ryan Clady (questionable, since that kid is dumber than a box of rocks), and I fully expect Albert to be the best of them.

I am not just saying this about Albert because we picked him, and because in the two weeks before the draft, draft "gurus" started talking him up.

I picked Albert as a tackle in a mock draft for the Steelers two months before the actual draft.



Absolutely not a push.

Dorsey does more for the rest of the defense every snap that Allen ever could.

And, frankly, elite DTs are more rare than elite DEs.

No. They aren't. That's why the DEs get paid so much, is because nobody can find them.

Actually, moving Albert to LT is exactly what needed to be done in order for him to reach his full potential.

Again, you want to find players that can lead you back to mediocrity.

Nice. Just give up on reason and make-up some **** instead.

No thanks. we've done mediocrity, and I, for one, am sick of it.

Then again, I assume last year was your cup of tea.

Just because you have some fantasy of how dominant some guy could be at a position that he didn't really play, doesn't help one bit.

Just because a couple of 'experts' say he was made for the job, doesn't help.

Those experts have some soon-to-be wash-outs, ranked above soon-to-be perrenial Pro-Bowlers in every draft. And I am just going to trust that this one super-miracle player is going to be the best ever at something that he has hardly done?

When it happens.




Are you trying to tell me that if Allen was still here we wouldn't have drafted Dorsey? Regardless of who we had, Dorsey was getting drafted by the Chiefs because he was the best player on the board. By the way, who has three great players at any one position besides WR and that might be stretchin it.??

Also, we didn't move ANYWHERE with out 1st pick in the first round!

Read it again. It say...
"And we didn't move-down, nor just take the BPA in the first round, we moved up, to take the OG ahead of the OT in an attempt to fill the OT hole. "

So who are you telling about this first pick in the first round? Noone said that we traded that, Not that I saw.



And yeah it's a stretch to suggest that someone has three great talents at one single position. And do you know why nobody has that? Because they quit taking that position when they have enough.

That's the point I was making.

[rbedgood]

I've just been reading some of his posts elsewhere, as well as in this thread, and I believe that you've just insulted court jesters everywhere.

LOL...true that.

[DrunkHillbilly]

" becuase if you already happen to have three great guys at his position, then there is a good chance that you will wind-up having to cut him"

And yeah it's a stretch to suggest that someone has three great talents at one single position. And do you know why nobody has that? Because they quit taking that position when they have enough.

That's the point I was making.




This is what you said. I'm not sure where your point was? You don't think we all know that most teams don't have 3 deep?

The 1st round comment was to someone who said they didn't think we would have taken Dorsey had we not traded for the 15th pick. He thinks we would have taken Albert or Clady had that been the case. I totally disagree!!! Dorsey was the best on the board and that's why we took him! He doesn't play DE but he will help with the loss of Allen.

[chief31]

"




This is what you said. I'm not sure where your point was? You don't think we all know that most teams don't have 3 deep?

That's why going with the BPA is not always the best idea. If your team is already strong at a position, then how much do you improve by taking a player at that psoition? And how much will your team inprove if you take a similar talent (based on pure opinion of talent) that fills an opening on your team?

Hypothetical:

If the Vikings had been drafting second overall, in this draft, and they have Glen Dorsey rated a little higher than Chris Long, who should they draft? (Assuming that they hadn't traded for Jared Allen.)

Do they draft Dorsey, because he was the BPA, and force on of their top four players to the bench? Or do they take a guy who fills the needs of the team?


If they take the DT, then they really didn't improve. But if they take the DE, then they still have their great DT tandem, and add a DE to the mix.

And that is why most teams don't have three great DTs. Because they need other positions more than they need a backup.


The 1st round comment was to someone who said they didn't think we would have taken Dorsey had we not traded for the 15th pick. He thinks we would have taken Albert or Clady had that been the case. I totally disagree!!! Dorsey was the best on the board and that's why we took him! He doesn't play DE but he will help with the loss of Allen.

Oh. Well I was the one quoted there.

I said...

And we didn't move-down, nor just take the BPA in the first round, we moved up, to take the OG ahead of the OT in an attempt to fill the OT hole.

And you quoted that, and responded...

Also, we didn't move ANYWHERE with out 1st pick in the first round!

Obviously, just some simple confusion.

[DrunkHillbilly]

Oh. Well I was the one quoted there.

I said...


And you quoted that, and responded...


Obviously, just some simple confusion.
We could use those comparisons all day long. Apples and oranges!! NOBODY had Dorsey ahead of Long on their board!!! I understand what you mean but what if you have multiple picks in the 1st round and you take the best player in the draft with your 1st pick and then when your 2nd pick in the 1st round comes up, the best player on the board happens to be the same position? Are you saying you don't take him? It happens all the time!! Teams try to convert those players to other positions.

[chief31]

We could use those comparisons all day long. Apples and oranges!! NOBODY had Dorsey ahead of Long on their board!!! I understand what you mean but what if you have multiple picks in the 1st round and you take the best player in the draft with your 1st pick and then when your 2nd pick in the 1st round comes up, the best player on the board happens to be the same position? Are you saying you don't take him? It happens all the time!! Teams try to convert those players to other positions.

Yeah. You don't take him. It's really that simple.

That's how some players seem to fall from where everybody expected them to go. All of the teams had bigger needs than his position.

And to quote you..."It happens all the time!!!" But teams pass on what they believe to be the better player, because they don't need that position, far more often than forcing their first rounders to learn another position.

And how well does that work? Trying to force a guy to play some other position? Why waste the pick?

[DrunkHillbilly]

Yeah. You don't take him. It's really that simple.

That's how some players seem to fall from where everybody expected them to go. All of the teams had bigger needs than his position.

And to quote you..."It happens all the time!!!" But teams pass on what they believe to be the better player, because they don't need that position, far more often than forcing their first rounders to learn another position.

And how well does that work? Trying to force a guy to play some other position? Why waste the pick?
UHHHH.....It's going to happen AGAIN on our team this year!!!! O LINE!!!!!! They will switch a player from the position he is used to playing to a different position!


IMO, there are more teams and staffs that have the "take the best player available" theory than not.

[chief31]

UHHHH.....It's going to happen AGAIN on our team this year!!!! O LINE!!!!!! They will switch a player from the position he is used to playing to a different position!


IMO, there are more teams and staffs that have the "take the best player available" theory than not.

Well, as always, I pray that this 'experiment' works better than most.

And I will have no choice but to disagree with you on the 'more teams' comment. Because there is really no way to show anything as proof-positive in the matter.

Just seems wierd that teams that need a RB tend to take the RB, and teams that need a QB tend to take the QB, etc., etc. Mighty big coincidence.

[DrunkHillbilly]

Well, as always, I pray that this 'experiment' works better than most.

And I will have no choice but to disagree with you on the 'more teams' comment. Because there is really no way to show anything as proof-positive in the matter.

Just seems wierd that teams that need a RB tend to take the RB, and teams that need a QB tend to take the QB, etc., etc. Mighty big coincidence.
I didn't say it worked all the time I just believe that to be true.

If it seems weird to you, are you agreeing that it does happen? If so, why are we having this discussion?

[Chiefster]

I didn't say it worked all the time I just believe that to be true.

If it seems weird to you, are you agreeing that it does happen? If so, why are we having this discussion?


Because chief31 likes a good argument. Have you learned nothing in your time here? :D

[chief31]

Ahh! This fight kinda lost its pizazze when it started sounding like agreement. :lol:

[DrunkHillbilly]

Because chief31 likes a good argument. Have you learned nothing in your time here? :D
I have learned that it is hard to argue when someone agrees with you!!:11:

[Canada]

I have learned that it is hard to argue when someone agrees with you!!:11:

No its not....

[Chiefster]

No its not....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Chiefster]

Ahh! This fight kinda lost its pizazze when it started sounding like agreement. :lol:


I have learned that it is hard to argue when someone agrees with you!!:11:

You mean that's not the definition of a good argument? :D

[DrunkHillbilly]

No its not....
Do you agree or disagree?:D

[Canada]

Do you agree or disagree?:D

yes.

[DrunkHillbilly]

yes.
At least we agree!

[chief31]

At least we agree!
That's what you think!

But you tell the story however you want. :D

[Chiefster]

...Can't we all just get along and agree to disagree??? :p

[Seek]

You're all wrong. There was a shooter in the grassy Knoll.

[Chiefster]

You're all wrong. There was a shooter in the grassy Knoll.


YouTube - Shooter Trailer

[Canada]

There was no grassy knoll. It was just a hill.

[Seek]

I didn't watch the whole clip but I think I know where you were going. Best line in the movie. I still have the shovel.

[milkman]

Yeah, lots of teams win Super Bowls without offensive linemen.

We're picking backups that could, one day, maybe, be something, if...

Instead odf guys who could be something right now and one day if...

If you'd rather have a team of RBs and no blockers, then you were in heaven last season, right?

I get it.
You're one of those fix the O-Line at all costs guys, in spite of the fact that this team sucked *** everywhere.

Me, I'd rather pick players with the potential to be part of the long term growth of this team than guys who will only help us back to the days when we got our asses kicked in the playoffs.

That means if there's a better player at a another position, then I'm going to take that player.


Just because you have some fantasy of how dominant some guy could be at a position that he didn't really play, doesn't help one bit.

Just because a couple of 'experts' say he was made for the job, doesn't help.

Those experts have some soon-to-be wash-outs, ranked above soon-to-be perrenial Pro-Bowlers in every draft. And I am just going to trust that this one super-miracle player is going to be the best ever at something that he has hardly done?

Once again, my confidence in Albet's ability to play LT isn't derived from some expert's opinion.

I had him pegged as a LT, and drafted him as such in a mock draft long before the experts started that hype.

My confidence in Albert's ability is based solely on my own observations from his play and his combine workout.

As to your comment about elite DTs not being more rare that elite DEs, all you'd have to do is think about the players who you can think of and you'd realize that the list of Dts you'd come up with is far smaller than DEs.