PDA

View Full Version : Growing pains



texaschief
09-15-2008, 04:02 AM
There was quiet optimism among Chiefs fans this season with the big draft we had and the fact that they were handing the reigns over to Croyle and he was going to be THE GUY this season. Even with Croyle as the QB this season, everyone knew there was a chance that this season could be rough with as many rookies and 2nd or 3rd year players as we had on this team.

There is something to be said for building with and playing a young team. I'm sure i don't have to go over the benefits, but nobody seems to be patient enough to go thru some of the growing pains that come along with playing a young team. I've been right there with y'all this decade. I've seen us have a really good team in 2003 and have watched us get increasingly worse since then. I know every problem this team has. I get it.



I've seen it written a lot here that "major changes" need to happen on this team. But there's a problem with that logic, you can't get much more major than what they did this past offseason. Almost three quarters of this entire team is composed of players with less than 3 years experience. It's going to take some seasoning for these guys to play like a NFL team.

I'm guessing the "major changes" you are referring to are management. This whole mess is Peterson's fault. As the GM, you should never let your team get as old as it was the last two seasons. You should've drafted players who could eventually replace the guys who would be retiring. The problems with the Oline have nothing to do with the head coach. That problem lies at the feet of the GM.

No team should ever be in the position where two pro bowl linemen retire without anybody behind them pushing for playing time.

The failure of this team doesn't lie with the current head coach. This head coach is actually bringing some really good talent from the draft and rookie FA pool. If it's a head coach that you want to blame, it has to be Vermeil. Some of you may not understand this, but if you are blaming Herm for his personnel decisions, it's only fair to blame Vermeil for his.

I personally blame Vermeil for the hole the Chiefs currently find themselves in, aside from Peterson. Peterson is the type of GM who listens to his head coach when it comes to building his teams. You can see this evident by how good the teams were when Marty was here. Marty had a major say in personnel decisions. So did Vermeil. Vermeil made moves all over the place to bring in Roaf, Holmes, etc.

But, by the same token, Vermeil had a total of 38 draft picks from his time here in Kansas City:

2005
Player
1-LB Derrick Johnson (still with the team)
3 P Dustin Colquitt (still with the team)
4 WR Craphonso Thorpe (cut) (cut from chiefs 2005)
5 LB Boomer Grigsby (cut) (2007)
5 CB Alphonso Hodge (cut) (2006)
6 T Will Svitek (still with the team)
6 DE Khari Long (cut) (2005)
7 QB James Kilian (cut) (2006)
7 T Jeremy Parquet (Steelers DEV) (2005)

2004
Player
2 DT Junior Siavii (cut) (2005)
2 TE Kris Wilson (Carolina backup) (2007)
3 LB Keyaron Fox (Pittsburgh backup) (2007)
4 WR Samie Parker (cut) (2007)
4 DE Jared Allen (Minnesota Starter) (Traded 2008)
6 WR Jeris McIntyre (cut) (2005)
7 T Kevin Sampson (cut) (2006)

2003
Player
1 RB Larry Johnson (still with the team starter)
2 LB Kawika Mitchell (Buffalo starter) (2006)
3 DB Julian Battle (cut) (2004)
4 T Brett Williams (cut) (2004)
5 T Jordan Black (cut) (2006)
6 DE Jimmy Wilkerson (Tampa backup) (2007)
7 DT Montique Sharpe (cut) (2005)
7 S Willie Pile (cut) (2004)

2002
Player
1 DT Ryan Sims (Tampa backup) (traded 2006)
2 DT Eddie Freeman (cut) (2004)
4 RB Omar Easy (cut) (2004)
5 LB Scott Fujita (New Orleans starter) (2004)
7 LB Maurice Rodriguez (cut) (2002)

2001
Player
3 DT Eric Downing (cut) (2003)
3 WR Marvin Minnis (cut) (2002)
4 DE Monty Beisel (Arizona backup) (2004)
4 RB George Layne (cut) (2002)
5 TE Billy Baber (cut) (2003)
5 RB Derrick Blaylock (cut) (2004)
6 G Alex Sulfsted (cut) (2001)
7 DB Shaunard Harts (cut) (2004)
7 DT Terdell Sands (Oakland backup) (2001)

*(cut)-means they are no longer in the NFL
*(2001-07) indicates the year they were cut by the Chiefs

We see that only four of those players are actually still with the team. A further look into Vermeil's talent assessment shows that not only did they not make or stay with the Chiefs' team, MOST of them are no longer still in the league. 24/38 draft picks allotted to Dick Vermeil and Chiefs when he was a head coach were used on players who are no longer in the NFL. Of the 14 who are still in the league, six of them are still starters and again, only four of them are still with the team.

If you go back and look at all those picks, very few of them lasted two years with the Chiefs. If you look at Herm Edward's first draft with the Chiefs in 2006, all but one of his seven draft picks are still with the team and six of them are starters or playing VERY prominent roles on the team. Compare that with Vermeil's first draft when all but three of his picks had been cut before his third year with the team.

Also, don't forget that while Vermeil was building his juggernaut of an offense, his defense was a complete joke and didn't stop the Colts even once in their one playoff game in the Vermeil era.

Imagine how much better this team would've been if the Chiefs could've had just one third of those 38 picks to still be on the team for the past few years.

While, yes, the Chiefs probably should have drafted some O-linemen instead of maybe Hali or Bowe or Pollard, etc... you have to again remember that this defense was dead last in the league and the offense was still at the very least, respectable when Herm was hired. His first priority was to fix the defense. Other than MLB or perhaps maybe one CB spot, the defense is just about completely rebuilt.

It always makes me laugh when i hear people say Herm doesn't care about offense when the guy has gone out and drafted more offensive players than defensive ones since he's been here. The count is 15/11. Look it up.

I know this is frustrating. But you can only do so much with young players. The fact that we don't have a QB to lead this team doesn't help matters either. Everyone is still freakin out about the O-line too. If you look at that left side and even the center, those guys are pretty stout. If you watch that side of the line, those guys are doing a hell of a job over there. I know it looks like guys are pouring thru the line, but that's because teams are blitzing and bringing more guys than we have to block them.

The reason it's so successful is because we have young QB's who don't know what to do with that kind of pressure coming down on them and then they make mistakes with the ball or the rookie RBs make mistakes in coverage. Teams don't blitz this much against experienced teams who know how to exploit the blitz. (see Petyon Manning)

These are all growing pains. These are things that have to be endured if we want to build a long term contender and not some flash in the pan, one year wonder like what Vermeil gave us.

Just take a breath and look to the future. The Chiefs, believe it or not, are on the right path. Just know that good things are coming. I think Herm Edwards knows how to recognize talent and is building this team the right way.

Like i said before, i lay the blame firmly on Carl Peterson's shoulders. It is his responsibility to grow this team despite what the head coach may want. A hit rate of 6 for 38 is not the mark of a successful GM. I think he should remain as V.P. of operations because he has grown football in KC over the last 20 years, but he should no longer be the GM.

texaschief
09-15-2008, 04:16 AM
ok that is a pretty fair assessment. I still do not understand Herm Edward's gameplan. I think we need to run a "normal" offense. Not a run, run, pass, punt failing offense that gives us little chance to score points and to win.

I cannot argue his draft choices though.

He doesn't have the personnel to run a "normal" offense right now. Hell, the guy doesn't even have a QB. It still has nothing to do with the play calling.

I mean, i don't think we should be running dives every play, but there's little else we can do. If the Chiefs started throwing the ball over the place, it will end up as sacks because the other team is constantly bringing the house, or a pick because the young or statuesque QBs back there can't make good decisions under pressure. There are very few drawbacks for the defense bringing more players than the Chiefs can block because either A: They're going to run LJ or B: They're going to get to the QB or make him make a bad decision.

Right now, the coaching staff's hands are tied because of the personnel on the field... and that doesn't necessarily mean the O-line. Right now, the defenses aren't playing against a QB that can make them pay for the blitzes they are running.

texaschief
09-15-2008, 05:01 AM
this is the point where I disagree with you. I think Herm throughout his career has always ran a game losing game plan.

I think Thigpen has time to throw, especially when he rolls out of the pocket to buy him extra time.

Our O line is a little bit better than last year at least. Thigpen is at least able to move outside the pocket. Like I said in an earlier post, I think we need to live and die by Thigpen and get him throwing...ON FIRST DOWN! TO TONY...OR TO BOWE.

GET LJ OUT OF HERE. He is a bad apple and a virus that the team needs to not catch.

We need to run a risky gameplan, not this nasty, ugly conservative plan that herm has run throught his entire career, not just when he first got to kc.

i remember well what the game looked like last year when they tried to open the offense up. it resulted in a 41-7 loss to the Denver Broncos. What about the guys on offense (particularly the QBs) makes you think they are capable of running a more complex offense? Hell, even the package Brodie was going to run was pretty basic. These guys don't have the skills to read complex defense and blitz schemes yet and will continue to make REALLY poor decisions.

If you looked at the passes completed by Thig today, there were all timing patterns. They weren't progressive reads. Hell, the guy even almost had a screen picked off because he just runs the play as its called. How many times did you see him call an audible? not many if at all.

There is a very basic package that Thig can run as the #3 QB. That's why Herm didn't want him to start this game. He said in his press conferences that he didn't have time to prepare and it wouldn't be fair to him. He was right. But Huard is such a non-athlete, Herm didn't really have a choice.

I'm just sayin, this isn't a personnel package that can run plays to perfection like we saw just a few years ago. Just because they're wearing red, doesn't mean they're automatically great football players yet. it's gonna take a couple years.

Fastphilly
09-15-2008, 05:10 AM
If what the OP said is true of Carl Peterson leaving it up to the head coach on player personel issues, then what the hell is his role? Sounds to me like he's laughing all the way to the bank, since the GM on most teams have a big role in that process....IMO, after three years of rebuilding (and this is his third year) there should be some level of improvement, now I'm not saying we should be the number one seed in the AFC post season, but at least show signs of getting this team in the neighborhood of 8-8...My evaluation of the first two games, first being against a team with a qb that has 0 starts in regular season games (we lost that) and losing our home opener to a bad team playing one dimensional offence....does'nt look like we'll get anywhere near 500...Thats my beef...

texaschief
09-15-2008, 05:19 AM
If what the OP said is true of Carl Peterson leaving it up to the head coach on player personel issues, then what the hell is his role? Sounds to me like he's laughing all the way to the bank, since the GM on most teams have a big role in that process....IMO, after three years of rebuilding (and this is his third year) there should be some level of improvement, now I'm not saying we should be the number one seed in the AFC post season, but at least show signs of getting this team in the neighborhood of 8-8...My evaluation of the first two games, first being against a team with a qb that has 0 starts in regular season games (we lost that) and losing our home opener to a bad team playing one dimensional offence....does'nt look like we'll get anywhere near 500...Thats my beef...

We had 5 shots to tie the game from the five against the Patriots with our backup QB. Bowe dropped two passes and Huard just sucked on most of those passes. That game was not that bad... but we played most of that game with Croyle under center.

Now, we don't have Croyle. People seem to think this offense was built just to have anyone step in and be successful at the QB position. The offense was built around what Croyle can do best at the QB position. That was the primary reason they went with Thigpen today against the Raiders. That offense isn't suited for Huard. It's unfair to ask him to perform in a rollout style offense. He's not that kind of QB.

Before i start evaluating this team, I need to see Croyle under center. HE is the guy this entire offense is built around. That will leave us with maybe 12 games left to evaluate the team. I want to see how this team performs when Brodie is back under center before i start jumping conclusions about this team.

A QB is a big part of a pro football team. Most teams who don't have answers at the QB positions don't do too well. Things are just compounded when you have a team as young as the Chiefs.

texaschief
09-15-2008, 05:22 AM
I've gotta tell you. I think the Chiefs win that game if Croyle is under center. I don't think the Chiefs punt nearly that many times. The INTs might be the same, but i think the Chiefs at the very least, turn some of those punts into field goals and keep the defense off the field which helps them perform better... especially against the run.

Fastphilly
09-15-2008, 05:31 AM
We had 5 shots to tie the game from the five against the Patriots with our backup QB. Bowe dropped two passes and Huard just sucked on most of those passes. That game was not that bad... but we played most of that game with Croyle under center.

Now, we don't have Croyle. People seem to think this offense was built just to have anyone step in and be successful at the QB position. The offense was built around what Croyle can do best at the QB position. That was the primary reason they went with Thigpen today against the Raiders. That offense isn't suited for Huard. It's unfair to ask him to perform in a rollout style offense. He's not that kind of QB.

Before i start evaluating this team, I need to see Croyle under center. HE is the guy this entire offense is built around. That will leave us with maybe 12 games left to evaluate the team. I want to see how this team performs when Brodie is back under center before i start jumping conclusions about this team.

A QB is a big part of a pro football team. Most teams who don't have answers at the QB positions don't do too well. Things are just compounded when you have a team as young as the Chiefs.

Its because of Croyle's lack of good decision making that led to his separated shoulder....If you look at the game film you will notice that the Patriots overloaded one side with two blitzers and believe me, NE did not disguise it....There was one running back to block and only could engage one blitzer, and guess what, the other blitzer ran in unblocked and blasted him, now would'nt most qb's be able to read the defence before pre-snap, especially a formation that was'nt disguising it's blitz.....He clearly should have audibled out of that play or called time out....That was poor judgement on his part..

Three7s
09-15-2008, 06:17 AM
Its because of Croyle's lack of good decision making that led to his separated shoulder....If you look at the game film you will notice that the Patriots overloaded one side with two blitzers and believe me, NE did not disguise it....There was one running back to block and only could engage one blitzer, and guess what, the other blitzer ran in unblocked and blasted him, now would'nt most qb's be able to read the defence before pre-snap, especially a formation that was'nt disguising it's blitz.....He clearly should have audibled out of that play or called time out....That was poor judgement on his part..
That's was drives me nuts. It's not hard to tell if a team is blitzing, yet our QBs can't seem to tell for the life of them! They finally get the ability to call audibles, and they don't even use it when they need too.

texaschief
09-15-2008, 01:15 PM
Its because of Croyle's lack of good decision making that led to his separated shoulder....If you look at the game film you will notice that the Patriots overloaded one side with two blitzers and believe me, NE did not disguise it....There was one running back to block and only could engage one blitzer, and guess what, the other blitzer ran in unblocked and blasted him, now would'nt most qb's be able to read the defence before pre-snap, especially a formation that was'nt disguising it's blitz.....He clearly should have audibled out of that play or called time out....That was poor judgement on his part..

but.... BUT... he's the best one we've got right now.

nigeriannightmare
09-15-2008, 04:49 PM
It's at times like this when leaders, and future stars, are going to need to step up. They need to handle adversity and challenges like the paid professionals they are. These guys are in the NFL, whcih means they can play some football...hard to over come incompetent coaching though. I would hope that this is the worst the team can get, rock bottom to speak, so there is no where to go but up. I still have a strong dislike for HERM and CP!!!!!!!

ASDF
09-15-2008, 04:58 PM
It's been known for fans to blame the Head coach for such problems. I would stick with Herm for a few more years. But if it continues like this, players will get tired and could leave. Example? LJ.

LJ knows the team, just like any other player, and he senses that things are not going in the right direction because something internally is going wrong.
Anyhow, I am all for getting rid of LJ.

I think CP is the main problem. But again, Herm is not a coach who can win you games even if he had an experienced team. He is not just a good coach.

Seek
09-15-2008, 05:15 PM
I've seen it written a lot here that "major changes" need to happen on this team. But there's a problem with that logic, you can't get much more major than what they did this past offseason. Almost three quarters of this entire team is composed of players with less than 3 years experience. It's going to take some seasoning for these guys to play like a NFL team.

I'm guessing the "major changes" you are referring to are management. This whole mess is Peterson's fault. As the GM, you should never let your team get as old as it was the last two seasons. You should've drafted players who could eventually replace the guys who would be retiring. The problems with the Oline have nothing to do with the head coach. That problem lies at the feet of the GM.

No team should ever be in the position where two pro bowl linemen retire without anybody behind them pushing for playing time.

The failure of this team doesn't lie with the current head coach. This head coach is actually bringing some really good talent from the draft and rookie FA pool. If it's a head coach that you want to blame, it has to be Vermeil. Some of you may not understand this, but if you are blaming Herm for his personnel decisions, it's only fair to blame Vermeil for his.

I personally blame Vermeil for the hole the Chiefs currently find themselves in, aside from Peterson. Peterson is the type of GM who listens to his head coach when it comes to building his teams. You can see this evident by how good the teams were when Marty was here. Marty had a major say in personnel decisions. So did Vermeil. Vermeil made moves all over the place to bring in Roaf, Holmes, etc.
.

This statement is contradicting. In one sense you are giving Herm a free pass and blaming it all on CP, and then you turn around and then blame it all on DV because CP listens to his HC... HUH??????

Sorry but the offensive line is in shambles because Herm has done nothing to improve it other than signing crappy free agents hoping to get by, and drafting Albert.

Just as you blamed DV, Herm should have been drafting Lineman year one and two to fill those voids. Not two years later.

I am starting to seriously question a lot of Herm's picks. Starting with Tamba. Lets not even discuss Justin Medlock.

teamcool68
09-15-2008, 05:21 PM
great assessment, sums up how i feel about carl and everyone hating on herm edwards.

i will judge the guy's ability as a coach when i think he's been given his team and these players have experience. i think it's pointless to blame him for the situation that we're in now, and i hope that if by some miracle we are rid of peterson in the near future herm gets to see this team through. would definitely feel like a few seasons if he doesn't.

Bike
09-15-2008, 05:27 PM
great assessment, sums up how i feel about carl and everyone hating on herm edwards.

i will judge the guy's ability as a coach when i think he's been given a fair team to base that judgment off of. i think it's pointless to blame him for the situation that we're in now, and i hope that if by some miracle we are rid of peterson in the near future herm gets to see this team through. would definitely feel like a few seasons if he doesn't.
AH, this is Herms' 3rd draft. He built this team! Doink.

teamcool68
09-15-2008, 05:36 PM
yes, third draft but this is the first year everyone decided to come out of impatient denial and admit that this team required a COMPLETE overhaul, thanks to the bombed out and depleted husk you could call a team left to us by vermeil and co.

i guess i feel that it's not going to end well for herm but i don't want it to, i think he's better than how he's going to be remembered if he goes down with carl. especially if the team he's been building does turn out to be what we hope it can be.

Bike
09-15-2008, 05:59 PM
yes, third draft but this is the first year everyone decided to come out of impatient denial and admit that this team required a COMPLETE overhaul, thanks to the bombed out and depleted husk you could call a team left to us by vermeil and co.

i guess i feel that it's not going to end well for herm but i don't want it to, i think he's better than how he's going to be remembered if he goes down with carl. especially if the team he's been building does turn out to be what we hope it can be.
I have no ill will towards Herm. I just want him to start winning games. Man, his choice of OC looks to be a complete failure. Hermie, you might want to step up and do whats right for this team. Now.

texaschief
09-15-2008, 06:00 PM
yes, third draft but this is the first year everyone decided to come out of impatient denial and admit that this team required a COMPLETE overhaul, thanks to the bombed out and depleted husk you could call a team left to us by vermeil and co.

i guess i feel that it's not going to end well for herm but i don't want it to, i think he's better than how he's going to be remembered if he goes down with carl. especially if the team he's been building does turn out to be what we hope it can be.

what we are going to see is, another coach come in and take over this team just as all the talent that Herm has drafted and accumulated over his time here, seasons and actually becomes a solid NFL team.

It really is sad that more people can't see what this team was when Vermeil left.

Seek
09-15-2008, 06:00 PM
yes, third draft but this is the first year everyone decided to come out of impatient denial and admit that this team required a COMPLETE overhaul, thanks to the bombed out and depleted husk you could call a team left to us by vermeil and co.

i guess i feel that it's not going to end well for herm but i don't want it to, i think he's better than how he's going to be remembered if he goes down with carl. especially if the team he's been building does turn out to be what we hope it can be.

so you just said the last two years of drafting didn't count for Herm because it wasn't obvious that the team was on decline.

Why don't people look at this for what it really is. You are blaming DV for taking a crappy team and Horrible OFFENSE and rebuilding it within a year to an offensive powerhouse that won a lot of games and was fun to watch.

Herm takes an offensive power house, and kills the entire team in three years and we point the blame at the coach who realized there was holes and fixed them while he was coach. Then give a pass to a coach who had no idea there was holes, until it painfully slapped him the face after being HC for two years.

People quit making excuses, open your eyes and see reality.

Seek
09-15-2008, 06:04 PM
what we are going to see is, another coach come in and take over this team just as all the talent that Herm has drafted and accumulated over his time here, seasons and actually becomes a solid NFL team.

It really is sad that more people can't see what this team was when Vermeil left.

I saw it. I saw it the first year. It is sad that Herm didn't see it then or even last year and start fixing it then. There is no reason he should get a free pass.

texaschief
09-15-2008, 06:13 PM
so you just said the last two years of drafting didn't count for Herm because it wasn't obvious that the team was on decline.

Why don't people look at this for what it really is. You are blaming DV for taking a crappy team and Horrible OFFENSE and rebuilding it within a year to an offensive powerhouse that won a lot of games and was fun to watch.

Herm takes an offensive power house, and kills the entire team in three years and we point the blame at the coach who realized there was holes and fixed them while he was coach. Then give a pass to a coach who had no idea there was holes, until it painfully slapped him the face after being HC for two years.

People quit making excuses, open your eyes and see reality.

no, I'm blaming the coach who saw this team get really old and realized it was going to take a major overhaul like the one the Chiefs are going thru now, to get it back to respectability.

... WHY DO YOU THINK DICK LEFT?

How could you sit there and say this has nothing to do with Vermeil? The guy only gave us four guys who are still on this team from 38 picks. If we had more starters who could've stuck, like Jared Allen (a 4th round pick), this team would be a whole lot better.

I love this selective memory bud. You talk about how horrible the offense is now. Do you not remember what the defense looked like when Dick was here? That was pathetic.

If you went back and looked at what Vermeil did when he was here, he traded away good talent (Joe Horn) and draft picks left and right to bring in guys who only had four or five more years left in the tank. (Willie Roaf) If that's not poor personnel decision making, what is? That, along with 6/38 draft picks who are still starters, and you've got the mess that the Chiefs are in now.

texaschief
09-15-2008, 06:15 PM
I saw it. I saw it the first year. It is sad that Herm didn't see it then or even last year and start fixing it then. There is no reason he should get a free pass.

REALLY? wow. Because from his first draft, we still have 6 of his seven picks with at least 5 of them either starting or or playing a significant role. Compare that to even Vermeil's first TWO drafts and see how that stacks up.

teamcool68
09-15-2008, 06:17 PM
i know what you mean, and i know it sounds like i'm giving herm a free pass. i admit i'm more inclined to be critical of peterson, but come on, you talk as though herm inherited some sort of gift and then managed to piss it all away.

"Herm takes an offensive power house, and kills the entire team in three years and we point the blame at the coach who realized there was holes and fixed them while he was coach. Then give a pass to a coach who had no idea there was holes, until it painfully slapped him the face after being HC for two years."

do you seriously believe the offense that vermeil "built" (or do you mean bought?) was the same offense two years into herm's tenure here? and are you implying that herm had anything to do with it's complete disintegration? or do you believe that herm should have had a whole crop of players (re: o-lineman) somehow magically ready to step up that soon?

again, i don't really have that much hope that herm is going to make it any farther than carl peterson. i'm not going to be surprised if clark ditches peterson as soon as the season is over, but i also think he might give herm one more year to try unless new GM demands his own people. i'm just as disappointed in the chiefs as you guys are, but you guys need to wake up and send that rage to a place that it actually deserves to be.. i mean seriously, doesn't it piss you off to not easily remember a playoff victory? and my memory goes back a lot farther than herm's days here.

texaschief
09-15-2008, 06:22 PM
This statement is contradicting. In one sense you are giving Herm a free pass and blaming it all on CP, and then you turn around and then blame it all on DV because CP listens to his HC... HUH??????

Sorry but the offensive line is in shambles because Herm has done nothing to improve it other than signing crappy free agents hoping to get by, and drafting Albert.

Just as you blamed DV, Herm should have been drafting Lineman year one and two to fill those voids. Not two years later.

I am starting to seriously question a lot of Herm's picks. Starting with Tamba. Lets not even discuss Justin Medlock.

No, please. Let's discuss the 5th round kicker from UCLA. The University that CP has strong ties to. If you think that was Herm's decision, you're mistaken.

But, I'd much rather our coach be wrong about a 5th round kicker than a defensive tackle taken #6 OVERALL in the FIRST ROUND!!! You really don't want to get into a conversation about comparing Vermeil's draft history against Edward's. You'll make yourself look ridiculous.

Bike
09-15-2008, 06:36 PM
no, I'm blaming the coach who saw this team get really old and realized it was going to take a major overhaul like the one the Chiefs are going thru now, to get it back to respectability.

... WHY DO YOU THINK DICK LEFT?

How could you sit there and say this has nothing to do with Vermeil? The guy only gave us four guys who are still on this team from 38 picks. If we had more starters who could've stuck, like Jared Allen (a 4th round pick), this team would be a whole lot better.

I love this selective memory bud. You talk about how horrible the offense is now. Do you not remember what the defense looked like when Dick was here? That was pathetic.

If you went back and looked at what Vermeil did when he was here, he traded away good talent (Joe Horn) and draft picks left and right to bring in guys who only had four or five more years left in the tank. (Willie Roaf) If that's not poor personnel decision making, what is? That, along with 6/38 draft picks who are still starters, and you've got the mess that the Chiefs are in now.
I agree that Vermiel left us a mess. But place the blame where it should really go - Carl Peterson.
Peterson brought in the 62 year old Vermiel to win in 4 years or less. Everybody knew Vermiel was too old to last much longer than that.
Vermiel and Peterson drafted and traded for short-term success, not for the future.
You now see the results.

Seek
09-15-2008, 10:03 PM
No, please. Let's discuss the 5th round kicker from UCLA. The University that CP has strong ties to. If you think that was Herm's decision, you're mistaken.

But, I'd much rather our coach be wrong about a 5th round kicker than a defensive tackle taken #6 OVERALL in the FIRST ROUND!!! You really don't want to get into a conversation about comparing Vermeil's draft history against Edward's. You'll make yourself look ridiculous.

I am not talking about comparing Herm's draftees to DV's. I am talking about Herm's drafts not really panning out either.

If you are suggesting that Herm has not control over the draft, why is that DV did then. I refuse to believe that CP gave DV freedom to draft who he wanted and then hand cuffed Herm.

I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure DV didn't draft LJ.

My point is Herm is just as much to blame for this decline as CP or DV. He does not get a free pass. This rebuilding should have took place two years ago.

Seek
09-15-2008, 10:25 PM
REALLY? wow. Because from his first draft, we still have 6 of his seven picks with at least 5 of them either starting or or playing a significant role. Compare that to even Vermeil's first TWO drafts and see how that stacks up.

Before you go spouting praises for the 6 of seven picks. Lets see how they pan out after about 4 years. Just because they are starters dosen't mean jack right about now, when they can't win a game.

Right now. I am not sold on Tamba, Croyle, or Webb.

javarick
09-16-2008, 12:18 AM
We all understand that the Chiefs are in "rebuild" pattern and we will have no clue what we are going to be until at least 2 years from now.

We all can agree that the draft looked wonderful on paper, but we all know that papers do not win games.

We just need to look like we are moving in the right direction. Instead, we look like we are going to be rebuilding for the next 5 years.

Big Daddy Tek
09-16-2008, 01:43 AM
so you just said the last two years of drafting didn't count for Herm because it wasn't obvious that the team was on decline.

Why don't people look at this for what it really is. You are blaming DV for taking a crappy team and Horrible OFFENSE and rebuilding it within a year to an offensive powerhouse that won a lot of games and was fun to watch.

Herm takes an offensive power house, and kills the entire team in three years and we point the blame at the coach who realized there was holes and fixed them while he was coach. Then give a pass to a coach who had no idea there was holes, until it painfully slapped him the face after being HC for two years.

People quit making excuses, open your eyes and see reality.

I completly disagree with you Seek. Im with Texas all the way on this one Dick ruined this franchise big time.

Three7s
09-16-2008, 01:53 AM
Dick Vermeil completely ignored the defense, he didn't fix squat on that side of the ball. I can't give Herm a pass either, he could've drafted some linemen and other components before, but didn't.

Seek
09-16-2008, 10:05 AM
I completly disagree with you Seek. Im with Texas all the way on this one Dick ruined this franchise big time.

Sorry, I just don't see how signing Big Mac, Donnie Edwards, Ty Law , Nap Harris, James Reed, Ron Edwards is DV's fault. At least a portion of the players DV bought for the offense stuck.

Okay aside from building Herm's team. Do you feel that Herm had his team prepared for Oakland? If that is the case, do you think Herm had his team prepared the first two weeks of his three years in KC?

Big Daddy Tek
09-16-2008, 10:19 AM
No. We were not prepared for oakland. But Im not sure what else we could of done with having Thigpen as our only healthy QB. Thats not a pass for Herm.

Seek
09-16-2008, 02:05 PM
No. We were not prepared for oakland. But Im not sure what else we could of done with having Thigpen as our only healthy QB. Thats not a pass for Herm.

Our lack of defense, specifically in the runnig game, had nothing to do with Thigpen. Our Lack of offense including the interception by Huard in our first two drives had nothing to do with Thigpen. The mere 29 yards rushing on 12 plays by LJ was not Thigpen's fault.

I know you are not giving Herm a free pass, but I really can't see why people are pointing blame away from Herm. It has been three years since DV retired. Herm has done equally enough to hurt this team by signing other peoples trash in hopes to get something out of them.

Ty Law, Big Mac, Donnie Edwards, Ron Edwards, James Reed, Nap Harris, Adrian Jones, the kick return from the Lions whose name I already forgot, John McGraw ... I can't name one FA that Herm has signed that I think was a good signing.

I am hopefull that Pat Thomas or D. Williams will help this team. If some of those Free agents stuck, we could be competitive but instead he added to what DV started.

At least DV signed Free agents that were not big profile names to helped the team. Trent Green, Willie Roaf (he was high profile), Priest Holmes, Casey Wiegmann, Eddie Kennison, Damon Huard, Welbourne (at least for the first two years).

Falcon
09-16-2008, 08:53 PM
you guys think you guys have growing pains?
Matt Ryan had his whole body thrown around like a crash dummy last sunday
But...he held on, and only got better as the game took its course

Canada
09-16-2008, 08:58 PM
you guys think you guys have growing pains?
Matt Ryan had his whole body thrown around like a crash dummy last sunday
But...he held on, and only got better as the game took its course

He had a good Week 1, I think he will be alright. And at least you guys know who your QB is!! :lol:

Coach
09-16-2008, 09:17 PM
I love the opening comments from texas. DV didn't draft worth a crap and we are paying for it now. But Herm carries some blame with this team as well. This team could have focused more on the offensive line in the off-season. Especially considering they knew they would be trying to assess the talent of a rookie QB. Instead, every pass play leaves our QB's running for their life.

Regarding Thigpen and the interceptions, as someone stated earlier, they were a result of timing routes. They were not progression reads.

Seek
09-17-2008, 02:50 PM
you guys think you guys have growing pains?
Matt Ryan had his whole body thrown around like a crash dummy last sunday
But...he held on, and only got better as the game took its course

LOL we have already stareted two different QB's both got hurt.

Sn@keIze
09-17-2008, 11:43 PM
I love the opening comments from texas. DV didn't draft worth a crap and we are paying for it now. But Herm carries some blame with this team as well. This team could have focused more on the offensive line in the off-season. Especially considering they knew they would be trying to assess the talent of a rookie QB. Instead, every pass play leaves our QB's running for their life.

Regarding Thigpen and the interceptions, as someone stated earlier, they were a result of timing routes. They were not progression reads.
Yes but if I remember right, DV didnt want Larry Johnson. I think that was more CP.

At the time our offense was fine, we needed to improve on D but passed on somebody like Troy Polumaulu and got LJ anyway.

Check out these guys we could have gotten had we not taken LJ....Troy P., Nick Barnett, Nadi Asoumuha!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NFL_Draft