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jmlamerson
10-19-2008, 04:37 PM
The Chiefs are one of more interesting teams in the league, and could be one of the easiest to rebuild. In my opinion, the following owould be the best way:

1. Be very, very active in free agency and fix your lines.

Sign free agents O-linemen Jordan Gross (LT) and Marc Colombo (RT) to long term deals. Both are under 30. Overpay both of them if you have to and you will). Make gross the highest paid o-lineman in the league if you have to (and you'll have to) - just get them signed. This will also allow you to move Albert back to his natural position at RG and shoudl give the Chiefs an above average o-line.

Then sign Julius Pepper, Terrell Suggs, and Albert Haynesworth to long term deals for your d-line. All are under 30. Overpay them if you have to. Keep Dorsey at DT. The Chiefs will have the cap room to do this, even if you ignore step 2.

2. Clear out the dead weight.

Cut Brodie Croyle, Tamba Hali, MacIntosh, Donnie Edwards, all WRs not named Bowe, Pollard, Tank, Turk, Surtain, and every other project player that hasn't worked out. Try to trade those tradable and cut the rest.

3. Fix the QB position

Sign JP Losman to a two-year deal for near the minimum. Draft Stafford out of Georgia with the overall number 1 pick (which KC probably will have). Sit Stafford for a year at least and don't get him killed.

4. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

This will be difficult, but a new regime committed to winning might be able to do it.

5. Don't cut or trade LJ

It makes no sense to cut him and eat his cap hit. Try to get 2-3 good years out of him. Behind a revamped line and with a good QB, he may become rejuvinated.

6. Draft well

Everyone needs to stop pretending Herm Edwards has drafted well. He hasn't, and most of his draft picks will be out of the league when their rookie contracts are up.

Even if the free agency plan above goes to plan, the Chiefs are still deficient at most positions. Stafford in the 1st round, and some mixture of WR, OL, LB, and CB over the rest. Do NOT draft any more DTs, RBs, TEs, or Ss.

7. Clean out the coaches and management personnel

Even if they weren't terrible at their jobs (and they are), you need to do this to rebuild faith in the franchise.

Cowher probably won't coach here (quit dreaming, people). Get Lane Kiffin (at least he'll care about Raiders games). Let him rebuild his staff. Throw a dumptruck of money at Scott Pioli to GM here.

What do you think?

Drunker Hillbilly
10-20-2008, 03:56 AM
I think the Chiefs have been rebuiding for the last 3 years. How many more do they need?

Three7s
10-20-2008, 04:01 AM
I think the Chiefs have been rebuiding for the last 3 years. How many more do they need?
Every year is a rebuilding year until Carl and Herm are gone.

slimdagreat
10-20-2008, 09:21 AM
Decent ideas, but there's no way Julius Pepper, Terrell Suggs, and Albert Haynesworth come to KC. At best of the three of them I only see Peppers leaving his current team, Haynesworth is the man-beast of the league's best team, and I'm sure they'll take care of him so he's not going anywhere, and B'More has so many old players on defense they'd be dumb to let a young stud like Suggs go.

As far as the draft goes, they need to shore up the OL first and foremost, and I'd rather they spend their 1st 2 picks on OL, than pay for vets that will be grossly overpaid and retired in 4 years (didn't we learn anything from the Vermeil era?).

Draft Oher or Andre Smith at LT and put Albert back in natural position (I agree with that part) w/ the 1st pick.

In the 2nd they should go after Alex Mack the center out of cal, or if somebody gets him in the 1st then they should get Marcus Freeman the LB out of OSU.

Remember outside of Detroit, us, maybe houston, and SF no other team is going to pick a QB before round 3, so if we are going to draft a QB, I'd rather get set at OL first and then take a QB in the 3rd.

jtandcrew
10-20-2008, 10:21 AM
The Chiefs are one of more interesting teams in the league, and could be one of the easiest to rebuild. In my opinion, the following owould be the best way:

1. Be very, very active in free agency and fix your lines.

Sign free agents O-linemen Jordan Gross (LT) and Marc Colombo (RT) to long term deals. Both are under 30. Overpay both of them if you have to and you will). Make gross the highest paid o-lineman in the league if you have to (and you'll have to) - just get them signed. This will also allow you to move Albert back to his natural position at RG and shoudl give the Chiefs an above average o-line.

Then sign Julius Pepper, Terrell Suggs, and Albert Haynesworth to long term deals for your d-line. All are under 30. Overpay them if you have to. Keep Dorsey at DT. The Chiefs will have the cap room to do this, even if you ignore step 2.

2. Clear out the dead weight.

Cut Brodie Croyle, Tamba Hali, MacIntosh, Donnie Edwards, all WRs not named Bowe, Pollard, Tank, Turk, Surtain, and every other project player that hasn't worked out. Try to trade those tradable and cut the rest.

3. Fix the QB position

Sign JP Losman to a two-year deal for near the minimum. Draft Stafford out of Georgia with the overall number 1 pick (which KC probably will have). Sit Stafford for a year at least and don't get him killed.

4. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

This will be difficult, but a new regime committed to winning might be able to do it.

5. Don't cut or trade LJ

It makes no sense to cut him and eat his cap hit. Try to get 2-3 good years out of him. Behind a revamped line and with a good QB, he may become rejuvinated.

6. Draft well

Everyone needs to stop pretending Herm Edwards has drafted well. He hasn't, and most of his draft picks will be out of the league when their rookie contracts are up.

Even if the free agency plan above goes to plan, the Chiefs are still deficient at most positions. Stafford in the 1st round, and some mixture of WR, OL, LB, and CB over the rest. Do NOT draft any more DTs, RBs, TEs, or Ss.

7. Clean out the coaches and management personnel

Even if they weren't terrible at their jobs (and they are), you need to do this to rebuild faith in the franchise.

Cowher probably won't coach here (quit dreaming, people). Get Lane Kiffin (at least he'll care about Raiders games). Let him rebuild his staff. Throw a dumptruck of money at Scott Pioli to GM here.

What do you think?

Very nice thought out plan! Although I disagree with cutting or trading Pollard. The Chiefs tried to trade Surtain and got no takers as in they didnt get any takers for Johnson either. Mark my word, eventually Johnson will either sit out later in his contract, he WILL get cut or the next GM will take a very low draft pick for him just to get rid of him. With 2 cases out on him for assault atm? The Chiefs (we) very well could be looking at a year long suspension for LJ. I dont put nothing past Goodell since he dont take crap off any player. I think the Chiefs are going to go back into free agency but depending on who's running the front office and coaching will decide where we get our O-linemen. ATM the O-line and QB position is #1 priority. Cowher will make a decision to coach again if the time is right and with his past the Chiefs should be the the running. I think Pioli is prob VERY happy where hes at. Kiffin would not be a bad choice but his stay in Oakland isnt that far diffrent than Herm's stay here.


Every year is a rebuilding year until Carl and Herm are gone.

Seems they have been rebuilding sumthin on this team for years! With Dick it was the offense. With Herm it was defense first then tried to do the whole team again at once!

Seek
10-20-2008, 10:27 AM
I think the Chiefs have been rebuiding for the last 3 years. How many more do they need?

I think the Chiefs have been stagnant the last two years signing crap for Free Agents, (none of which who are even worth a minimum vet contract) and now three years later is appears Herms first draft with the Chiefs was crap as well.

The so called rebuilding, is now an excuse to cover up the mistakes the first two years trying to stall an inevitable firing of both Carl and Herm.

jmlamerson
10-20-2008, 11:01 AM
Very nice thought out plan! Although I disagree with cutting or trading Pollard. The Chiefs tried to trade Surtain and got no takers as in they didnt get any takers for Johnson either. Mark my word, eventually Johnson will either sit out later in his contract, he WILL get cut or the next GM will take a very low draft pick for him just to get rid of him. With 2 cases out on him for assault atm? The Chiefs (we) very well could be looking at a year long suspension for LJ. I dont put nothing past Goodell since he dont take crap off any player. I think the Chiefs are going to go back into free agency but depending on who's running the front office and coaching will decide where we get our O-linemen. ATM the O-line and QB position is #1 priority. Cowher will make a decision to coach again if the time is right and with his past the Chiefs should be the the running. I think Pioli is prob VERY happy where hes at. Kiffin would not be a bad choice but his stay in Oakland isnt that far diffrent than Herm's stay here.



Seems they have been rebuilding sumthin on this team for years! With Dick it was the offense. With Herm it was defense first then tried to do the whole team again at once!

Pollard is a hard hitting, and is good against the run, but he is just too slow to be a coverage safety. He'd be fine coming off of the bench, but they need someone faster back there. I give him an A for effort, though.

Surtain and Johnson are both hard to trade because of salary, injury, and age concerns. They're hard to cut because of the salary cap hit.

It sucks to say "rebuilding," I know, but the below poster is exactly right - the Chiefs have been stagnating, not rebuilding. A rebuilding team selects a QB of the future, a coach of the future, and has good, young players. All the Chiefs have done is sign players too old, too young, or too bad to sign elsewhere.

jmlamerson
10-23-2008, 11:42 AM
Very nice thought out plan! Although I disagree with cutting or trading Pollard.

Thank you for the kind words. I do not understand why everyone here likes Pollard so much as a S. He is an excellent special teams player, and he might to OK as a backup, but he doesn't have the speed to be a proper S in this league. He'll always be a liability in coverage. I guess I'm for keeping him as a backup/special teams guy, but we need a legitimate SS who can defend against the pass.

And despite Pollard's obvious heart and work ethic, you can't teach speed.

Sn@keIze
10-23-2008, 12:11 PM
Thank you for the kind words. I do not understand why everyone here likes Pollard so much as a S. He is an excellent special teams player, and he might to OK as a backup, but he doesn't have the speed to be a proper S in this league. He'll always be a liability in coverage. I guess I'm for keeping him as a backup/special teams guy, but we need a legitimate SS who can defend against the pass.

And despite Pollard's obvious heart and work ethic, you can't teach speed.Pollards a stud. Hes young and will only get better.

jmlamerson
10-23-2008, 12:20 PM
Pollards a stud. Hes young and will only get better.

The only reason that Pollard hasn't been exposed more is that teams haven't felt the need to pass on us, not with our (lack of) run defense. Whenever a team has gone long, and Pollard has been in coverage, he has been burned (see the Falcons and Panthers games).

Look, he isn't a bad player, but he will never be an adequate safety in this league. And although he's far down the list of Chiefs problems, he isn't ever going to be the long-term solution at safety.

Dyno-Mite
10-23-2008, 01:34 PM
Lamerson,your post was good but there is no way I'd agree with drafting another quarterback.This is like starting all over while developing a QB into the Chiefs system.I'm positive that Brodie Croyle has learned plenty from Trent Green and Damon and gone veterans such as Will Shields during his first year with us.
He has been practicing against elite corners when Ty Law was with us.The new QB draftee will face young corners during practice and they have not been through what players such as Ty Law and Patrick Surtain been through.Colombo won't fit as a Chief but Gross will be a great fit.We basically need one major signing for an offensive lineman.Don't get rid of Tamba but get rid of Ron Edwards and fill it up with a better dominare run stuffer.Trade our 3 and 4th round pick for a dominate linebacker because we are already filled with so much youth.Secondary is fine.Definitely keep L.J. and Gonzo.

Seek
10-23-2008, 01:48 PM
Lamerson,your post was good but there is no way I'd agree with drafting another quarterback.This is like starting all over while developing a QB into the Chiefs system.I'm positive that Brodie Croyle has learned plenty from Trent Green and Damon and gone veterans such as Will Shields during his first year with us.
He has been practicing against elite corners when Ty Law was with us.The new QB draftee will face young corners during practice and they have not been through what players such as Ty Law and Patrick Surtain been through.Colombo won't fit as a Chief but Gross will be a great fit.We basically need one major signing for an offensive lineman.Don't get rid of Tamba but get rid of Ron Edwards and fill it up with a better dominare run stuffer.Trade our 3 and 4th round pick for a dominate linebacker because we are already filled with so much youth.Secondary is fine.Definitely keep L.J. and Gonzo.

I can't read you. I can't tell if you are being serious or sarcastic. I really hope you are joking.

jmlamerson
10-23-2008, 01:54 PM
Lamerson,your post was good but there is no way I'd agree with drafting another quarterback.This is like starting all over while developing a QB into the Chiefs system.I'm positive that Brodie Croyle has learned plenty from Trent Green and Damon and gone veterans such as Will Shields during his first year with us.
He has been practicing against elite corners when Ty Law was with us.The new QB draftee will face young corners during practice and they have not been through what players such as Ty Law and Patrick Surtain been through.Colombo won't fit as a Chief but Gross will be a great fit.We basically need one major signing for an offensive lineman.Don't get rid of Tamba but get rid of Ron Edwards and fill it up with a better dominare run stuffer.Trade our 3 and 4th round pick for a dominate linebacker because we are already filled with so much youth.Secondary is fine.Definitely keep L.J. and Gonzo.

Well, it *would* be starting all over.

You don't really think that Brodie Croyle will ever QB an NFL team again, do you? He's going to be out of the league come the end of this season. It doesn't matter what he learned, he doesn't have the sort of body that can hold up to the NFL game. The Chiefs will need a QB from somewhere, either FA or draft. And there aren't exactly a great group of FA QBs this year.

Also, neither Surtain nor Ty Law were ever at an elite level while Chiefs (although Surtain has been adequate).

What's wrong with Columbo as a RT? We need about three new linemen, as Waters will retire, McIntosh isn't an answer, Herb Taylor will be an adequate backup (at best), Adrian Jones is hopeless, and Albert needs to be put back in position at RG. Niswanger is fine at C, but that's about it.

What dominent LB could the Chiefs trade for with a 3rd or 4th rounder? I can't think of any.

Tamba will never be a good starting DE without a legitimate pass rusher on the other side. And he'll only be a good starter in pass situations - he's awful against the run. The Chiefs have poured many high picks into the line and it stinks - we need to sign the best FAs under 30 years old.

We may not have choices with LJ and Gonzo. Both may retire rather than play another year with Herm. LJ is young, but has been paid an awful lot of money. He'll never get a 3rd contract. Why come back?

Dyno-Mite
10-23-2008, 02:13 PM
Well, it *would* be starting all over.

You don't really think that Brodie Croyle will ever QB an NFL team again, do you? He's going to be out of the league come the end of this season. It doesn't matter what he learned, he doesn't have the sort of body that can hold up to the NFL game. The Chiefs will need a QB from somewhere, either FA or draft. And there aren't exactly a great group of FA QBs this year.

Also, neither Surtain nor Ty Law were ever at an elite level while Chiefs (although Surtain has been adequate).

What's wrong with Columbo as a RT? We need about three new linemen, as Waters will retire, McIntosh isn't an answer, Herb Taylor will be an adequate backup (at best), Adrian Jones is hopeless, and Albert needs to be put back in position at RG. Niswanger is fine at C, but that's about it.

What dominent LB could the Chiefs trade for with a 3rd or 4th rounder? I can't think of any.

Tamba will never be a good starting DE without a legitimate pass rusher on the other side. And he'll only be a good starter in pass situations - he's awful against the run. The Chiefs have poured many high picks into the line and it stinks - we need to sign the best FAs under 30 years old.

We may not have choices with LJ and Gonzo. Both may retire rather than play another year with Herm. LJ is young, but has been paid an awful lot of money. He'll never get a 3rd contract. Why come back?




L.J.,why come back.What?You're staring to not make sense.Just because Colombo's fits but plays well with the Cowboys doesn't mean that he fits as a Chief.Herb is better than you think and can contribute as a starter.Waters is not guaranteed to retire.I hope Prince Albert does go to right guard while Herb starts at left tackle next to B-dub.Sign a dominate right tackle next to Prince Albert.Niswanger is superb.

Seek
10-23-2008, 02:24 PM
Niswanger is superb.

Do you even watch the Chiefs. Niswanger is supber in hiking the ball. That is the end of his skill set.

jmlamerson
10-23-2008, 03:05 PM
L.J.,why come back.What?You're staring to not make sense.Just because Colombo's fits but plays well with the Cowboys doesn't mean that he fits as a Chief.Herb is better than you think and can contribute as a starter.Waters is not guaranteed to retire.I hope Prince Albert does go to right guard while Herb starts at left tackle next to B-dub.Sign a dominate right tackle next to Prince Albert.Niswanger is superb.

I'm saying that the chances of LJ suiting up next year as a Chief are very, very slim. I think he will either be cut, be traded, or retire. I think he would prefer any of those three options to returning to play for Herm.

Waters WILL retire. You're crazy to think he'll come back for another year of this. Herb is only good by comparison - he's shown nothing to show that he can be a legitimate LT for 16 games. He would be a service 6th OL, but given the chance, I'd rather have Gross at LT and Colombo (why the dislike for him?) at RT, with Herb backing both up. We need to sign an additional LG after Waters retires, and move Albert to RG. Niswanger is OK at C, but he's not in the top 10 by any means.

You can't really believe the crazy things you're saying, right? The Chiefs need a massive overhaul. Your plan of sticking with Croyle, keeping the current OL (+1), trading for LBs, and in general maintaining the status quo is pretty obviously not going to work.

It stinks that we've wasted the past two years on a failed "rebuilding" project, but that is the way it is. You can avoid reality, or you can admit that we need to fix what's broken.

yashi
10-23-2008, 04:56 PM
It's a good, but highly unrealistic plan.. we'd be lucky if one of those players wanted to come here, much less all of them.

Carl/Herm should obviously be gone. Get a coach who doesn't insist that a pass that travels more than 5 yards is a bad one.

The O-Line should be addressed (priority #1).

There needs to be a QB of the future in development next season.

LJ is overpaid and washed up, in my opinion.. and needs to be cut. Draft or sign a bruiser to complement Charles. Free a team typically known for its good character/chemistry of a bad apple.

Sign a veteran leader on defense. Don't draft defense, our defense is already young enough.

Dyno-Mite
10-23-2008, 05:47 PM
I'm saying that the chances of LJ suiting up next year as a Chief are very, very slim. I think he will either be cut, be traded, or retire. I think he would prefer any of those three options to returning to play for Herm.

Waters WILL retire. You're crazy to think he'll come back for another year of this. Herb is only good by comparison - he's shown nothing to show that he can be a legitimate LT for 16 games. He would be a service 6th OL, but given the chance, I'd rather have Gross at LT and Colombo (why the dislike for him?) at RT, with Herb backing both up. We need to sign an additional LG after Waters retires, and move Albert to RG. Niswanger is OK at C, but he's not in the top 10 by any means.

You can't really believe the crazy things you're saying, right? The Chiefs need a massive overhaul. Your plan of sticking with Croyle, keeping the current OL (+1), trading for LBs, and in general maintaining the status quo is pretty obviously not going to work.

It stinks that we've wasted the past two years on a failed "rebuilding" project, but that is the way it is. You can avoid reality, or you can admit that we need to fix what's broken.




If Waters retire then we can go after 2 offfensive lineman.That's "if" he retires.Put it this way,if Brian Waters,Damon,Gonzo,L.J.,Patrick Surtain and your assuming departure of Tamba Hali all leave then the Chiefs are still in the starter mode of rebuilding and that's another bad but also suck upcoming season for us.You basically have all of these guys not with us next year.That's awful.

texaschief
10-23-2008, 06:02 PM
[QUOTE=jmlamerson;102566]The Chiefs are one of more interesting teams in the league, and could be one of the easiest to rebuild. In my opinion, the following owould be the best way:

1. Be very, very active in free agency and fix your lines.

Sign free agents O-linemen Jordan Gross (LT) and Marc Colombo (RT) to long term deals. Both are under 30. Overpay both of them if you have to and you will). Make gross the highest paid o-lineman in the league if you have to (and you'll have to) - just get them signed. This will also allow you to move Albert back to his natural position at RG and shoudl give the Chiefs an above average o-line.

The Chiefs need a RT. So, Colombo would be an ok FA decision if you don't want to draft one in the 3rd round. The Chiefs don't need a LT. Albert's "natural position" IS LT. He was moved to OG in college because the coaching staff thought they had a better LT on their roster, which made moving Albert to OG feasible. Moving Albert to OG would be overkill at a position that doesn't require a top 15 pick to be successful. Think about this. How pissed would you be if the Chiefs spent a first round pick on an OG when they could've used it on to fill a position like DE or LB? A more efficient use of resources would be to draft a guard in the 3rd or 4th round. Guard in particular is a cheap position to fill and shouldn't be looked at as a position that you throw money at.

Then sign Julius Pepper, Terrell Suggs, and Albert Haynesworth to long term deals for your d-line. All are under 30. Overpay them if you have to. Keep Dorsey at DT. The Chiefs will have the cap room to do this, even if you ignore step 2.

Julius Peppers is a poor long-term investment. He isn't a player you can build around. He won't be in the league much longer and he won't come to KC to help in a rebuild when he'll have plenty on opportunities elsewhere to win a Super Bowl before his career ends. The Titans aren't letting their best player leave. Haynesworth will be franchised again. Terrell Suggs is one of THE MOST overrated OLBs in the league. He's been in the NFL since 2003 and has had only 1 season with at least 80 tackles. His tackle totals per season are as follows, 27, 60, 68, 64, 80 and 28 so far this season. Compare that to DJ who has been here since 2005, his tackle totals are 95, 75, 94 and 34 so far this season. If it's an OLB you want to sign as a FA, you need to look at someone like the 26 year old Jonathan Vilma who is coming off an injury last season, but his tackles totals per year since 2004 are 107, 169, 113, 43 and 63 so far this season. If you want to throw some big FA dollars around, this guy needs to be on top of your list.

2. Clear out the dead weight.

Cut Brodie Croyle, Tamba Hali, MacIntosh, Donnie Edwards, all WRs not named Bowe, Pollard, Tank, Turk, Surtain, and every other project player that hasn't worked out. Try to trade those tradable and cut the rest.

Brodie Croyle, Tamba Hali, ALL THE WR's, Bernard Pollar, Tank Tyler and Turk McBride are not "dead weight." Mac and Surtain, ok. But all the other guys you just listed are young projectable players with high value to this or ANY OTHER team for that matter. They are all young and need some playing time before they can be expected to start playing like the Pro Bowlers you think they should already be.

3. Fix the QB position

Sign JP Losman to a two-year deal for near the minimum. Draft Stafford out of Georgia with the overall number 1 pick (which KC probably will have). Sit Stafford for a year at least and don't get him killed.

Drafting a QB should be a priority for the Chiefs as long as they don't reach. Stafford isn't a top 5 talent and the Chiefs will/should have to trade down to pick him. JP Losman is not "fixing the problem." Croyle will serve as an above average backup if the Chiefs draft a QB. They should conserve their resources to spend it elsewhere besides a backup QB. Plus, we just signed Gray who is a lateral move to Losman.

4. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

This will be difficult, but a new regime committed to winning might be able to do it.

Neither are going to retire. But, if they do, we already have Cottam for Gonzo and if Waters decides to retire, then AND ONLY THEN, should the Chiefs look to Free Agency to fill the OG spot.

5. Don't cut or trade LJ

It makes no sense to cut him and eat his cap hit. Try to get 2-3 good years out of him. Behind a revamped line and with a good QB, he may become rejuvinated.

Agreed. Peterson was enamored with the playoff appearance in 2006 and went off the deep end by signing this guy to a long-term deal. The franchise made their bed, now they have to lie in it. His trade value is almost nothing.

6. Draft well

Everyone needs to stop pretending Herm Edwards has drafted well. He hasn't, and most of his draft picks will be out of the league when their rookie contracts are up.

Even if the free agency plan above goes to plan, the Chiefs are still deficient at most positions. Stafford in the 1st round, and some mixture of WR, OL, LB, and CB over the rest. Do NOT draft any more DTs, RBs, TEs, or Ss.

yeah, maybe we should get Vermeil back in here. He was a freaking genius in the draft. To say Edwards hasn't drafted well is just ridiculous. Page, Webb, Stallings, Croyle, Pollard, Hali, Taylor, Smith, Tyler, McBride, Bowe, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, Carr, Franklin, Morgan, Cottam, Charles, Flowers, Albert and Dorsey are all still with the team. That's 22/26 players.

You honestly think at least 14 (most) of those players won't be here after their rookie contracts are up? Seriously? Dorsy, Albert, Flowers, Charles, Cottam, Morgan, Carr, Bowe, Smith, Taylor, Tank, Hali, Pollard and Page will absolutely still be with this team after their rookie contracts. That's already 14. Webb, Stallings, Croyle, Turk, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, and Franklin are the others remaining. I think Richardson has the talent to be a RT in this league. Croyle will serve as a good backup. I think Turk has a bright future as well.

But also, to say that "most" of these players won't be here past their rookie contracts is a cop-out. Teams usually get more 2nd day picks than 1st day picks, so yeah, chances are, MOST won't turn out to be great players. But the key to drafting great players is at least hitting on your first day picks. LJ and DJ are the only 1st day picks from the Vermeil era that are even still with the team and if you add Mitchell and Sims to that list, they're the only first day picks still in the ENTIRE LEAGUE!!!

Hali isn't the pass rusher people want him to be, but that's not what he was drafted to be. He was drafted to be the bookend opposite Jarred Allen (the pass rusher). The Chiefs need to get Hali back to the other side to play his "natural position," not cut him as "dead weight." Pollard is a starter and isn't NEARLY as bad as most of you think he is. When I look at Pollard, I see a Bob Sanders in the making. Brodie Croyle... is Brodie Croyle. I didn't like the idea of building a franchise around a 3rd round QB in the first place. But he could be a good backup.

Dwayne Bowe is a Pro Bowl WR. Period. Turk is developing, but I think he was a reach in the 2nd round. I'd be much higher on him if he were a 4th or 5th round pick. But he should be doing more as a 2nd round pick. Tank Tyler is going to be a good DT next to Dorsey. I still can't believe we got him in the 3rd round!! He's going to be a special player.

Glenn Dorsey is going to be a Pro Bowl DT. Period. Albert is going to be a Pro Bowl LT. Period. That kid is spectacular as a rookie going against some of the best vets in the league. He's a keeper. Flowers is WAY too good to think he's going to wash out. Charles > Bush IMO. Just wait. Cottam is a faster, bigger Gonzo. Dajuan Morgan should be a starter in the league RIGHT NOW. But he's blocked by Pollard.

The key to good drafts is hitting on your first day picks. That is DEFINITELY something Herm has done in his tenure.

texaschief
10-23-2008, 06:03 PM
[/QUOTE]7. Clean out the coaches and management personnel

Even if they weren't terrible at their jobs (and they are), you need to do this to rebuild faith in the franchise.


Peterson needs to go. I agree. He's had 20 years. His negligence in the draft, on the offensive line, his big contracts to players like LJ are inexcusable. This mess is HIS fault. He allowed Vermeil to come in and sell off draft picks for rental players in order to give Lamar the trophy before his death. Now, we're stuck with this awful and incredibly young team. It's going to take a few years with this core group of players to be playoff contenders. But, when they DO mature and gain experience, you're going to be talking about the Chiefs like you have been talking about the Colts and Patriots. Those teams built thru the draft to establish their core group and then went to the free agent market to get players who can compliment those players.

I think Herm Edwards should be allowed to coach a team that he built when they're playing at their best in a couple seasons. Chan Gailey is a good OC. Gunther Cunningham is a good DC. These are the guys coming up with the schemes and calling the plays. The problem is execution from this VERY young team. The rushing defense is awful because the young Dline can't stay in their gaps and we only have one good LB.

The offense is awful because the QBs can't stay healthy. You can blame the Oline all you want, but when the defense brings more players than you have to block them, unless the QB makes a quick decision, he's going to get hit. It's football. QBs get hit. The good ones throw the ball or run before that happens. But we don't have a good QB. The Chiefs are allowing 3 sacks per game after 6 games currently ranked 23 in the league. The Chiefs have given up only 5 sacks to defensive linemen. The Chiefs' Oline has allowed few sacks than teams like the Patriots (30th 4SPG), Steelers (27th 3.3SPG) and the Bills (26th 3.3SPG).

The Patriots lost their QB even when they HAD enough players to block the blitzing Pollard. QB injuries happen. Matt Cassell has come in and been sacked 24 times this season and he's getting better! The Chiefs' QB's have no excuses for their poor play. Rothlisberger, Kitna, Russell, Trent Edwards, and the Palmer/Fitzgerald combo have ALL been sacked more than the Croyle/Huard/Thigpen combo.

Bottom line, the Chiefs' QBs are absolutely awful/fragile on their own and criticism of the Oline needs to be tempered at least somewhat. They're a young group who haven't played together...ever. They don't have the continuity regular Olines have. That being said, I don't know what to tell you about the Patriot's line. If ANYONE has a reason to complain about an offensive line, it's that Patriots. That whole line consists of Pro Bowlers and they've given up more sacks than almost anyone!!


Cowher probably won't coach here (quit dreaming, people). Get Lane Kiffin (at least he'll care about Raiders games). Let him rebuild his staff. Throw a dumptruck of money at Scott Pioli to GM here.
What do you think?[/QUOTE]

So, a retired Cowher is a dream, but a fully employed Pioli who is in charge of a perennial Super Bowl contender and who's hiring would require tampering... isn't a dream?

With all these big money suggestions and free agent pipe dream I'm either having flashbacks of the Raider's 2008 off season or the Dick Vermeil era of player acquisitions. Either way, it's a losing plan.

Dyno-Mite
10-23-2008, 06:12 PM
This Lamerson dude mentioned to sign J.P.Losman to a 2 year deal as a Chief.You need to get off this site because that was the worst comment I have ever heard on here.

slc chief
10-23-2008, 06:28 PM
This Lamerson dude mentioned to sign J.P.Losman to a 2 year deal as a Chief.You need to get off this site because that was the worst comment I have ever heard on here.

you are kicking people off now

Dyno-Mite
10-23-2008, 06:33 PM
SLC,who mentions something like that?Sign J.P. Losman to a 2 year deal as a Chief.:sign0153:

slc chief
10-23-2008, 06:39 PM
SLC,who mentions something like that?Sign J.P. Losman to a 2 year deal as a Chief.:sign0153:
uh you

Dyno-Mite
10-23-2008, 06:47 PM
uh you



If I did then I'd make Lamerson look smart.

Canada
10-23-2008, 07:24 PM
This Lamerson dude mentioned to sign J.P.Losman to a 2 year deal as a Chief.You need to get off this site because that was the worst comment I have ever heard on here.

I guess you don't read your own posts??

slc chief
10-23-2008, 07:43 PM
This Lamerson dude mentioned to sign J.P.Losman to a 2 year deal as a Chief.You need to get off this site because that was the worst comment I have ever heard on here.

dumbest comment i ever heard was comparing grbac to favre

Three7s
10-23-2008, 07:45 PM
dumbest comment i ever heard was comparing grbac to favre
Or saying Grbac got us to the playoffs! :lol:

jap1
10-23-2008, 11:09 PM
I think the biggest concern this off season is what do we do about qb. Do we sign a vet FA who can manage the game and wait for whomever we draft to develop, or do we draft a qb and throw him in the fire? By the way, I totally agree that we need to pick up at least 2 new OL men if we want to win more than 5 games next year. That is IF Brian Waters doesnt hang it up. McIntosh and Jones are trash, and im not sure if Taylor is starting RT material yet, he doesnt seem to have the angry streak a run blocker needs.

Here is the list of qbs who will be FAs next year according to ESPN:
Kurt Warner
Kerry Collins
Jeff Garcia
J.P. Losman
Rex Grossman
Kyle Boller
J.T. O'Sullivan
Byron Leftwich
Charlie Frye
Patrick Ramsey
Alex Smith (under contract but likely to be cut)

as well as Daunte Culpepper, Joey Harrington, and Chris Simms.

I think if we improve our OL (and thus regain a decent running game) a guy like garcia or leftwich makes sense. They are the only decent ones on that list in my opinion They only have a few good years left in the league while we develop next years 1st rd pick, and are good at managing and not throwing ints. We only need them to throw an occasional 3rd and long pass (which is all we ask of thigpen/huard/croyle this year which seems to be asking too much).

I prefer to go with developing a QB for a year or two. Usually starting a rookie leads to that guy getting burnt out or beaten into bad habits (David Carr). Any thoughts?

Three7s
10-24-2008, 02:05 AM
It's been proven that guys that are drafted and don't play right off do better, since they get to learn from the veteran starter. I say we do it like that. We signed Quinn Gray, and hopefully he can be that guy, so we don't have to sign another veteran, but if he isn't, then Kerry Collins is probably the best guy on the list. Jeff Garcia isn't bad, after that, it gets kind of ugly.

Guru
10-24-2008, 02:40 AM
How to fix the Chiefs?

Simple.

Blow up the front office completely. Fire them all. Truly start over from scratch.

PawnshopMarimba
10-24-2008, 02:41 AM
I don't agree. I think Herm HAS drafted well. I dislike the guy severely, but I'll give him that much credit. The guy would be a top notch scout. Tamba Hali has proved to be over rated, but you have to consider that these young guys aren't out there playing with vets. They're playing with other young guys. Page and Pollard will be solid. So will Flowers. Branden Albert has my confidence. So does Jamal Charles. These guys ARE still learning. They ARE young. Rookies that play well generally have a well founded supporting cast. The Chiefs don't. Simple as that.

Hayvern
10-24-2008, 02:55 AM
Thank you for the kind words. I do not understand why everyone here likes Pollard so much as a S. He is an excellent special teams player, and he might to OK as a backup, but he doesn't have the speed to be a proper S in this league. He'll always be a liability in coverage. I guess I'm for keeping him as a backup/special teams guy, but we need a legitimate SS who can defend against the pass.

And despite Pollard's obvious heart and work ethic, you can't teach speed.

Well, I am no coach, but what I do know is that a strong safety is really not meant to be keeping up with the speeder receivers, that is what you have speedy cornerbacks for. Strong safeties are primarily in coverage against the tight end, or plays that come over the middle of the field. They are also responsible for picking up those running plays that get through the linebackers.

That said, speed is not the main attribute for a strong safety. We need him to be strong and to be able to make the stop against those stronger running backs and tight ends.

Having said that, I have seen him seriously improve over the last couple of years. Up to even last year I would not have given you much for him, but this year he has really turned around and seems to be one of the shining members of this team. He has to stay right now.

In my opinion, right now he is the defensive MVP for this team.

jtandcrew
10-24-2008, 03:49 AM
Thank you for the kind words. I do not understand why everyone here likes Pollard so much as a S. He is an excellent special teams player, and he might to OK as a backup, but he doesn't have the speed to be a proper S in this league. He'll always be a liability in coverage. I guess I'm for keeping him as a backup/special teams guy, but we need a legitimate SS who can defend against the pass.

And despite Pollard's obvious heart and work ethic, you can't teach speed.


At the safety position I dont think you need spped as much as you need vision. At safety you are alot of times the last line of D before someone scores. You need more vision to take the right angle rather than taking someone head on so you can get the big hit. Angle to tackle saves touchdowns. If a reciever gets far enough for the safety to tackle him he already prob got the 1st down so whats a couple more yards to grab and tackle rather than laying the helmet flying off hit.

hardcorechiefsfan
10-24-2008, 04:02 AM
Are you sure that you really want to know how I'd fix the chiefs?
This season I wouldn't fix them since its a given that they are zip anyway. Fix them next season.

jtandcrew
10-24-2008, 04:12 AM
Are you sure that you really want to know how I'd fix the chiefs?
This season I wouldn't fix them since its a given that they are zip anyway. Fix them next season.


There is no way to fix them this year, ive stated that before. The only way to come even close is to change HC and GM now rather then after the year. If we wait till after the year and IF Clark does replace both then all he has to go on is video and not seeing their reactions and attitudes on sideline. That tells a coach alot about a player.Im fine with the players we have since i know we cant just go out and cut people without killing our cap room. Saying that, Clark CAN keep the seats filled by having balls enough to make a change now for the future and give the next 2 guys a headstart on what to do next year. Why did SF make a change in middle of year? Yes i know that the coach had more time than Herm to do what he wanted but lets just look at the inevitible (sp?)

Dyno-Mite
10-24-2008, 10:17 AM
Or saying Grbac got us to the playoffs! :lol:
I aint completely compare Grbac to FAvre.I mentioned that they were similiar in a way.

chief31
10-25-2008, 02:47 AM
I aint completely compare Grbac to FAvre.I mentioned that they were similiar in a way.

Both have two ears. But only one has anything in between.

Bike
10-25-2008, 03:02 AM
Both have two ears. But only one has anything in between.
yessirr:lol: :bananen_smilies046:

Sn@keIze
10-25-2008, 07:28 AM
This guy may help our run D. How come we aint picked him up yet?

YouTube - South Carolina vs. LSU Ref Forearm Shiver

milkman
10-25-2008, 07:00 PM
[quote=jmlamerson;102566]The Chiefs are one of more interesting teams in the league, and could be one of the easiest to rebuild. In my opinion, the following owould be the best way:

1. Be very, very active in free agency and fix your lines.

Sign free agents O-linemen Jordan Gross (LT) and Marc Colombo (RT) to long term deals. Both are under 30. Overpay both of them if you have to and you will). Make gross the highest paid o-lineman in the league if you have to (and you'll have to) - just get them signed. This will also allow you to move Albert back to his natural position at RG and shoudl give the Chiefs an above average o-line.

The Chiefs need a RT. So, Colombo would be an ok FA decision if you don't want to draft one in the 3rd round. The Chiefs don't need a LT. Albert's "natural position" IS LT. He was moved to OG in college because the coaching staff thought they had a better LT on their roster, which made moving Albert to OG feasible. Moving Albert to OG would be overkill at a position that doesn't require a top 15 pick to be successful. Think about this. How pissed would you be if the Chiefs spent a first round pick on an OG when they could've used it on to fill a position like DE or LB? A more efficient use of resources would be to draft a guard in the 3rd or 4th round. Guard in particular is a cheap position to fill and shouldn't be looked at as a position that you throw money at.

Then sign Julius Pepper, Terrell Suggs, and Albert Haynesworth to long term deals for your d-line. All are under 30. Overpay them if you have to. Keep Dorsey at DT. The Chiefs will have the cap room to do this, even if you ignore step 2.

Julius Peppers is a poor long-term investment. He isn't a player you can build around. He won't be in the league much longer and he won't come to KC to help in a rebuild when he'll have plenty on opportunities elsewhere to win a Super Bowl before his career ends. The Titans aren't letting their best player leave. Haynesworth will be franchised again. Terrell Suggs is one of THE MOST overrated OLBs in the league. He's been in the NFL since 2003 and has had only 1 season with at least 80 tackles. His tackle totals per season are as follows, 27, 60, 68, 64, 80 and 28 so far this season. Compare that to DJ who has been here since 2005, his tackle totals are 95, 75, 94 and 34 so far this season. If it's an OLB you want to sign as a FA, you need to look at someone like the 26 year old Jonathan Vilma who is coming off an injury last season, but his tackles totals per year since 2004 are 107, 169, 113, 43 and 63 so far this season. If you want to throw some big FA dollars around, this guy needs to be on top of your list.

2. Clear out the dead weight.

Cut Brodie Croyle, Tamba Hali, MacIntosh, Donnie Edwards, all WRs not named Bowe, Pollard, Tank, Turk, Surtain, and every other project player that hasn't worked out. Try to trade those tradable and cut the rest.

Brodie Croyle, Tamba Hali, ALL THE WR's, Bernard Pollar, Tank Tyler and Turk McBride are not "dead weight." Mac and Surtain, ok. But all the other guys you just listed are young projectable players with high value to this or ANY OTHER team for that matter. They are all young and need some playing time before they can be expected to start playing like the Pro Bowlers you think they should already be.

3. Fix the QB position

Sign JP Losman to a two-year deal for near the minimum. Draft Stafford out of Georgia with the overall number 1 pick (which KC probably will have). Sit Stafford for a year at least and don't get him killed.

Drafting a QB should be a priority for the Chiefs as long as they don't reach. Stafford isn't a top 5 talent and the Chiefs will/should have to trade down to pick him. JP Losman is not "fixing the problem." Croyle will serve as an above average backup if the Chiefs draft a QB. They should conserve their resources to spend it elsewhere besides a backup QB. Plus, we just signed Gray who is a lateral move to Losman.

4. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

This will be difficult, but a new regime committed to winning might be able to do it.

Neither are going to retire. But, if they do, we already have Cottam for Gonzo and if Waters decides to retire, then AND ONLY THEN, should the Chiefs look to Free Agency to fill the OG spot.

5. Don't cut or trade LJ

It makes no sense to cut him and eat his cap hit. Try to get 2-3 good years out of him. Behind a revamped line and with a good QB, he may become rejuvinated.

Agreed. Peterson was enamored with the playoff appearance in 2006 and went off the deep end by signing this guy to a long-term deal. The franchise made their bed, now they have to lie in it. His trade value is almost nothing.

6. Draft well

Everyone needs to stop pretending Herm Edwards has drafted well. He hasn't, and most of his draft picks will be out of the league when their rookie contracts are up.

Even if the free agency plan above goes to plan, the Chiefs are still deficient at most positions. Stafford in the 1st round, and some mixture of WR, OL, LB, and CB over the rest. Do NOT draft any more DTs, RBs, TEs, or Ss.

yeah, maybe we should get Vermeil back in here. He was a freaking genius in the draft. To say Edwards hasn't drafted well is just ridiculous. Page, Webb, Stallings, Croyle, Pollard, Hali, Taylor, Smith, Tyler, McBride, Bowe, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, Carr, Franklin, Morgan, Cottam, Charles, Flowers, Albert and Dorsey are all still with the team. That's 22/26 players.

You honestly think at least 14 (most) of those players won't be here after their rookie contracts are up? Seriously? Dorsy, Albert, Flowers, Charles, Cottam, Morgan, Carr, Bowe, Smith, Taylor, Tank, Hali, Pollard and Page will absolutely still be with this team after their rookie contracts. That's already 14. Webb, Stallings, Croyle, Turk, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, and Franklin are the others remaining. I think Richardson has the talent to be a RT in this league. Croyle will serve as a good backup. I think Turk has a bright future as well.

But also, to say that "most" of these players won't be here past their rookie contracts is a cop-out. Teams usually get more 2nd day picks than 1st day picks, so yeah, chances are, MOST won't turn out to be great players. But the key to drafting great players is at least hitting on your first day picks. LJ and DJ are the only 1st day picks from the Vermeil era that are even still with the team and if you add Mitchell and Sims to that list, they're the only first day picks still in the ENTIRE LEAGUE!!!

Hali isn't the pass rusher people want him to be, but that's not what he was drafted to be. He was drafted to be the bookend opposite Jarred Allen (the pass rusher). The Chiefs need to get Hali back to the other side to play his "natural position," not cut him as "dead weight." Pollard is a starter and isn't NEARLY as bad as most of you think he is. When I look at Pollard, I see a Bob Sanders in the making. Brodie Croyle... is Brodie Croyle. I didn't like the idea of building a franchise around a 3rd round QB in the first place. But he could be a good backup.

Dwayne Bowe is a Pro Bowl WR. Period. Turk is developing, but I think he was a reach in the 2nd round. I'd be much higher on him if he were a 4th or 5th round pick. But he should be doing more as a 2nd round pick. Tank Tyler is going to be a good DT next to Dorsey. I still can't believe we got him in the 3rd round!! He's going to be a special player.

Glenn Dorsey is going to be a Pro Bowl DT. Period. Albert is going to be a Pro Bowl LT. Period. That kid is spectacular as a rookie going against some of the best vets in the league. He's a keeper. Flowers is WAY too good to think he's going to wash out. Charles > Bush IMO. Just wait. Cottam is a faster, bigger Gonzo. Dajuan Morgan should be a starter in the league RIGHT NOW. But he's blocked by Pollard.

The key to good drafts is hitting on your first day picks. That is DEFINITELY something Herm has done in his tenure.

You were doing so well until you said that Stafford isn't a top 5 talent.

Couple of other things I disagreed with after, but overall, a good post.

milkman
10-25-2008, 07:02 PM
At the safety position I dont think you need spped as much as you need vision. At safety you are alot of times the last line of D before someone scores. You need more vision to take the right angle rather than taking someone head on so you can get the big hit. Angle to tackle saves touchdowns. If a reciever gets far enough for the safety to tackle him he already prob got the 1st down so whats a couple more yards to grab and tackle rather than laying the helmet flying off hit.

In a cover two, your SS needs the speed to cover the deep zone.

So, yes, speed is a necessary quiality.

jtandcrew
10-26-2008, 07:05 AM
In a cover two, your SS needs the speed to cover the deep zone.

So, yes, speed is a necessary quiality.

Well, then I guess either Gunther or Herm should go then. Gunther would rather have guys with adequte speed but more vision and knowledge. So with the cover 2 Herm so dearly loves, I guess we need more guys with speed rather than vision or knowledge. It would be nice to have a couple safeties that have all 3 but we dont. TBH, I have never liked the cover 2 after the teams started to figure out how to eat it up. The cover 2 worked for a couple 2-3 years but its past its time. Its time to scrap it and to go with what we know best and thats man to man blitz! Lets see what the corners and safeties can do.

milkman
10-26-2008, 09:42 AM
Well, then I guess either Gunther or Herm should go then. Gunther would rather have guys with adequte speed but more vision and knowledge. So with the cover 2 Herm so dearly loves, I guess we need more guys with speed rather than vision or knowledge. It would be nice to have a couple safeties that have all 3 but we dont. TBH, I have never liked the cover 2 after the teams started to figure out how to eat it up. The cover 2 worked for a couple 2-3 years but its past its time. Its time to scrap it and to go with what we know best and thats man to man blitz! Lets see what the corners and safeties can do.

Let's just take a giant enema to this whole organization and start fresh.

Then we can hire coaches that actually know how to utilize the talent available.

spiman
10-26-2008, 12:06 PM
As easy as 1,2,3..:sign0153: YouTube - mad tv-easy bake oven :11:

jtandcrew
10-27-2008, 11:28 AM
Let's just take a giant enema to this whole organization and start fresh.

Then we can hire coaches that actually know how to utilize the talent available.

I truely think that Gunther would put in a defense that would fit his players that he has. Only problem is that he is tied to try to run Herms defense. If you notice, Dungy doesnt even run it anymore! If he does, its not even close to what it was! Its a dirivitive of the original. Herm needs to let Gunther loose and do his own thing!

spiman
10-27-2008, 11:41 PM
I truely think that Gunther would put in a defense that would fit his players that he has. Only problem is that he is tied to try to run Herms defense. If you notice, Dungy doesnt even run it anymore! If he does, its not even close to what it was! Its a dirivitive of the original. Herm needs to let Gunther loose and do his own thing!


:bananen_smilies046: Could not hurt..Send an email to Herm with that idea!:sign0098:

texaschief
10-28-2008, 12:09 AM
ugh. the Chiefs don't run a Cover-2.

texaschief
10-28-2008, 12:11 AM
[quote=texaschief;103322]

You were doing so well until you said that Stafford isn't a top 5 talent.

Couple of other things I disagreed with after, but overall, a good post.

Don't get me wrong, Stafford will probably be the first QB taken, but it should be somewhere in the 6-10 range. Taking him before #6 would be reaching. If you really want to take Stafford with the appropriate draft value, it needs to be somewhere in the 6-10 range.

yashi
10-28-2008, 10:24 AM
Don't get me wrong, Stafford will probably be the first QB taken, but it should be somewhere in the 6-10 range. Taking him before #6 would be reaching. If you really want to take Stafford with the appropriate draft value, it needs to be somewhere in the 6-10 range.
Couldn't disagree more. I think the only QB that is possibly better and less of a risk running an NFL style offense is possibly Bradford, but he's only a sophomore and there's almost no chance of him coming out.

Stafford is big, he has a rocket of an arm, experience running an NFL style offense, and possibly most important of all... he is gaining experience in playing with a poor offensive line this year. Perfect fit for the Chiefs, eh?

jmlamerson
10-28-2008, 12:35 PM
ugh. the Chiefs don't run a Cover-2.

They are trying to run the cover 2, and they have specifically drafted and signed personnel for that defense (especially Hali, Dorsey, and Flowers).

The fact that the defense on the field is not a Tampa 2 defense stems from the utter lack of pass rush from the front 4, our subpar (except Johnson) LBs, and the slow safties.

You are all right that Pollard might work in a different system, but I don't see any way to view him as anything but a poor man's Roy Williams right now.

And people, stop pretending Brodie Croyle will be in the NFL next year. He's D-U-N. He is out of the eague. Any future plans for the Chiefs will not involve him. Stop pretending.

jmlamerson
10-28-2008, 12:38 PM
This Lamerson dude mentioned to sign J.P.Losman to a 2 year deal as a Chief.You need to get off this site because that was the worst comment I have ever heard on here.

Really? Losman is an average QB who will come cheap.

You in turn, have said Brodie Croyle should be our starter next year because he practiced against Ty Law and Patrick Surtain.

Grbac, are you really this , or are you just trolling?

jmlamerson
10-28-2008, 01:21 PM
yeah, maybe we should get Vermeil back in here. He was a freaking genius in the draft. To say Edwards hasn't drafted well is just ridiculous. Page, Webb, Stallings, Croyle, Pollard, Hali, Taylor, Smith, Tyler, McBride, Bowe, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, Carr, Franklin, Morgan, Cottam, Charles, Flowers, Albert and Dorsey are all still with the team. That's 22/26 players.

You honestly think at least 14 (most) of those players won't be here after their rookie contracts are up? Seriously? Dorsy, Albert, Flowers, Charles, Cottam, Morgan, Carr, Bowe, Smith, Taylor, Tank, Hali, Pollard and Page will absolutely still be with this team after their rookie contracts. That's already 14. Webb, Stallings, Croyle, Turk, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, and Franklin are the others remaining. I think Richardson has the talent to be a RT in this league. Croyle will serve as a good backup. I think Turk has a bright future as well.

But also, to say that "most" of these players won't be here past their rookie contracts is a cop-out. Teams usually get more 2nd day picks than 1st day picks, so yeah, chances are, MOST won't turn out to be great players. But the key to drafting great players is at least hitting on your first day picks. LJ and DJ are the only 1st day picks from the Vermeil era that are even still with the team and if you add Mitchell and Sims to that list, they're the only first day picks still in the ENTIRE LEAGUE!!!

Hali isn't the pass rusher people want him to be, but that's not what he was drafted to be. He was drafted to be the bookend opposite Jarred Allen (the pass rusher). The Chiefs need to get Hali back to the other side to play his "natural position," not cut him as "dead weight." Pollard is a starter and isn't NEARLY as bad as most of you think he is. When I look at Pollard, I see a Bob Sanders in the making. Brodie Croyle... is Brodie Croyle. I didn't like the idea of building a franchise around a 3rd round QB in the first place. But he could be a good backup.

Dwayne Bowe is a Pro Bowl WR. Period. Turk is developing, but I think he was a reach in the 2nd round. I'd be much higher on him if he were a 4th or 5th round pick. But he should be doing more as a 2nd round pick. Tank Tyler is going to be a good DT next to Dorsey. I still can't believe we got him in the 3rd round!! He's going to be a special player.

Glenn Dorsey is going to be a Pro Bowl DT. Period. Albert is going to be a Pro Bowl LT. Period. That kid is spectacular as a rookie going against some of the best vets in the league. He's a keeper. Flowers is WAY too good to think he's going to wash out. Charles > Bush IMO. Just wait. Cottam is a faster, bigger Gonzo. Dajuan Morgan should be a starter in the league RIGHT NOW. But he's blocked by Pollard.

The key to good drafts is hitting on your first day picks. That is DEFINITELY something Herm has done in his tenure.

I had to respond to this, and every other defense of Herm Edwards's drafting abilities.

1. I have never said Flowers would wash out. I have always said that was best KC pick over the past three years.

2. You're right - Page, Webb, Stallings, Croyle, Pollard, Hali, Taylor, Smith, Tyler, McBride, Bowe, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, Carr, Franklin, Morgan, Cottam, Charles, Flowers, Albert and Dorsey are all still on the team. Don't you think that is more of a sign that the Chiefs lack talent than how good of picks they were? How many of those do you really think will ever be legitimate starters?

Hali - A bust. Is getting run over every running play and is unable to rush the passer without a premier pass rusher taking up double teams.

Webb - A bust. Can't even crack the Chiefs 3rd WR spot despite the distinct lack of talent in the WR corps (outside Bowe).

Stallings - A bust. Can't crack the RG spot despite the immortal Adrian Jones stinking it up over there.

Croyle - Look, he is out of the league. He will never play another game. He won't be backing us (or anyone up) next year. He is a massive bust.

Pollard - I'll agree to disagree until he's in a coherent defensive scheme.

Hali - Hey, you listed him twice! I think you meant Page, who can't tackle or cover - bust.

Taylor - He's a servicable 6th OL, but he's shown nothing in the regular season yet to have me believe he's a 16-game starter on the OL.

Kolby Smith - A bust. If you want a 3/yd per carry runner, he's your guy. He's not a long-term solution at RB.

Tyler - A bust. Drafted way to high. Can't stop the run or rush the passer.

McBride - See Tyler.

Bowe - Great pick. Of course, one that Edwards fought.

Merritt - A non-factor this year. He's the Chiefs 4th TE or 2nd FB. Wasted pick either way.

Johnston - A bust. Can't start over Alfonso Boone despite Herm trying to give him the job.

Richardson - A bust. Can't start over McIntosh despite Herm trying to give him the job.

Carr - Solid slot CB.

Franklin - A bust. Injury prone and undersized.

Morgan - Undecided - will have to wait and see. Has done nothing yet this year.

Cottam - Undecided - will have to wait and see how he performs without Tony G.

Charles - Want to see if he can stand up to a real defense before declaring him anyhting more than a 3rd down back, but looked good against the Jets.

Flowers - Stud pick. See #1.

Albert - Injury prone and out of place as a LT. Yes, he played LT in high school. He is a better RG and should be moved there.

Dorsey - Is getting blown out so far this year. May turn into a stud, but at least not until his 2nd contract.

This isn't counting the four picks no longer on the team.

Look, few teams have drafted worse than the Chiefs these past three years. So many rookies have played for the Chiefs, not because they are so good, but because the Chiefs cannot (or will not) attract legitimate free agents.

For some reason, you think I'm defending Vermeil's drafting abilities. Vermiel, in the first three rounds of 2001 to 2005 drafted:

Derrick Johnson (2005)
Colquitt (2005)
Junior Siavii (2004)
Kris Wilson (2004)
Keyaron Fox (2004)
Larry Johnson (2003)
Kawika Mitchell (2003)
Julian Battle (2003)
Ryan Sims (2002)
Eddie Freeman (2002)
Eric Downing (2001)
Marvin Minnis (2001)

They also traded a 1st and 2nd for Trent Green, who turned out pretty well, and a 2nd for Surtain, who has been servicable as a CB.

D. Johnson, L. Johnson, Colquitt, Green, Surtain, and Mitchell were good picks/trades. That's 6 out of 15. It is not a good average (although JA in the 5th was a steal).

Edwards has busted on 16 picks. I'll call 5 undecided (Dorsey, Albert, Morgan, Charles, Cottam). Even giving you Pollard, Carr, Flowers, Taylor, and Bowe, that's only a 23% hit rate (5 out of 21, with 5 undecided). Only factoring in 1st to 3rd rounders, and even considering Pollard, that's only 3 hits, 5 undecided, and 4 busts. That isn't a good record. It's as bad as Vermeil's.

Edwards can't coach, scout talent, manage a game, manage a clock, win the loyalty of his own players, or do anything else. He's the worst coach in the NFL, and the Chiefs won't recover until he's gone. He's the Isiah Thomas of the NFL.

drstandley31
10-28-2008, 07:36 PM
I had to respond to this, and every other defense of Herm Edwards's drafting abilities.

1. I have never said Flowers would wash out. I have always said that was best KC pick over the past three years.

2. You're right - Page, Webb, Stallings, Croyle, Pollard, Hali, Taylor, Smith, Tyler, McBride, Bowe, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, Carr, Franklin, Morgan, Cottam, Charles, Flowers, Albert and Dorsey are all still on the team. Don't you think that is more of a sign that the Chiefs lack talent than how good of picks they were? How many of those do you really think will ever be legitimate starters?

Hali - A bust. Is getting run over every running play and is unable to rush the passer without a premier pass rusher taking up double teams.

Webb - A bust. Can't even crack the Chiefs 3rd WR spot despite the distinct lack of talent in the WR corps (outside Bowe).

Stallings - A bust. Can't crack the RG spot despite the immortal Adrian Jones stinking it up over there.

Croyle - Look, he is out of the league. He will never play another game. He won't be backing us (or anyone up) next year. He is a massive bust.

Pollard - I'll agree to disagree until he's in a coherent defensive scheme.

Hali - Hey, you listed him twice! I think you meant Page, who can't tackle or cover - bust.

Taylor - He's a servicable 6th OL, but he's shown nothing in the regular season yet to have me believe he's a 16-game starter on the OL.

Kolby Smith - A bust. If you want a 3/yd per carry runner, he's your guy. He's not a long-term solution at RB.

Tyler - A bust. Drafted way to high. Can't stop the run or rush the passer.

McBride - See Tyler.

Bowe - Great pick. Of course, one that Edwards fought.

Merritt - A non-factor this year. He's the Chiefs 4th TE or 2nd FB. Wasted pick either way.

Johnston - A bust. Can't start over Alfonso Boone despite Herm trying to give him the job.

Richardson - A bust. Can't start over McIntosh despite Herm trying to give him the job.

Carr - Solid slot CB.

Franklin - A bust. Injury prone and undersized.

Morgan - Undecided - will have to wait and see. Has done nothing yet this year.

Cottam - Undecided - will have to wait and see how he performs without Tony G.

Charles - Want to see if he can stand up to a real defense before declaring him anyhting more than a 3rd down back, but looked good against the Jets.

Flowers - Stud pick. See #1.

Albert - Injury prone and out of place as a LT. Yes, he played LT in high school. He is a better RG and should be moved there.

Dorsey - Is getting blown out so far this year. May turn into a stud, but at least not until his 2nd contract.

This isn't counting the four picks no longer on the team.

Look, few teams have drafted worse than the Chiefs these past three years. So many rookies have played for the Chiefs, not because they are so good, but because the Chiefs cannot (or will not) attract legitimate free agents.

For some reason, you think I'm defending Vermeil's drafting abilities. Vermiel, in the first three rounds of 2001 to 2005 drafted:

Derrick Johnson (2005)
Colquitt (2005)
Junior Siavii (2004)
Kris Wilson (2004)
Keyaron Fox (2004)
Larry Johnson (2003)
Kawika Mitchell (2003)
Julian Battle (2003)
Ryan Sims (2002)
Eddie Freeman (2002)
Eric Downing (2001)
Marvin Minnis (2001)

They also traded a 1st and 2nd for Trent Green, who turned out pretty well, and a 2nd for Surtain, who has been servicable as a CB.

D. Johnson, L. Johnson, Colquitt, Green, Surtain, and Mitchell were good picks/trades. That's 6 out of 15. It is not a good average (although JA in the 5th was a steal).

Edwards has busted on 16 picks. I'll call 5 undecided (Dorsey, Albert, Morgan, Charles, Cottam). Even giving you Pollard, Carr, Flowers, Taylor, and Bowe, that's only a 23% hit rate (5 out of 21, with 5 undecided). Only factoring in 1st to 3rd rounders, and even considering Pollard, that's only 3 hits, 5 undecided, and 4 busts. That isn't a good record. It's as bad as Vermeil's.

Edwards can't coach, scout talent, manage a game, manage a clock, win the loyalty of his own players, or do anything else. He's the worst coach in the NFL, and the Chiefs won't recover until he's gone. He's the Isiah Thomas of the NFL.


Wow, that took some effort. I have no idea if you're right or not, but you've put some serious thought into it. :toast2: Cheers.

m0ef0e
10-28-2008, 07:41 PM
I wouldn't label Franklin a bust yet.

Canada
10-28-2008, 08:43 PM
How is Kolby Smith a bust? Is LJ a bust cause he is also a 3 yd per carry guy behind this line.

jmlamerson
10-28-2008, 10:17 PM
I wouldn't label Franklin a bust yet.

It isn't nice to label guys eight weeks into thier careers as busts, I know, but Franklin's problems (size, injuries) won't be overcome with conditioning or training. He's too fragile to be the speed receiver they need. And MU doesn't exactly have a great WR tradition.

jmlamerson
10-28-2008, 10:19 PM
How is Kolby Smith a bust? Is LJ a bust cause he is also a 3 yd per carry guy behind this line.

LJ was fine until Herm Edwards decided to rush him 416 times in one season. No RB in today's NFL can survive that. The fact that he is having the occasional 100 yard game is amazing to me.

He wouldn't be great in his prime behind this line, but he'd be better than Kolby Smith.

Chiefster
10-28-2008, 11:17 PM
The Chiefs are one of more interesting teams in the league, and could be one of the easiest to rebuild. In my opinion, the following owould be the best way:

1. Be very, very active in free agency and fix your lines.

Sign free agents O-linemen Jordan Gross (LT) and Marc Colombo (RT) to long term deals. Both are under 30. Overpay both of them if you have to and you will). Make gross the highest paid o-lineman in the league if you have to (and you'll have to) - just get them signed. This will also allow you to move Albert back to his natural position at RG and shoudl give the Chiefs an above average o-line.

Then sign Julius Pepper, Terrell Suggs, and Albert Haynesworth to long term deals for your d-line. All are under 30. Overpay them if you have to. Keep Dorsey at DT. The Chiefs will have the cap room to do this, even if you ignore step 2.

2. Clear out the dead weight.

Cut Brodie Croyle, Tamba Hali, MacIntosh, Donnie Edwards, all WRs not named Bowe, Pollard, Tank, Turk, Surtain, and every other project player that hasn't worked out. Try to trade those tradable and cut the rest.

3. Fix the QB position

Sign JP Losman to a two-year deal for near the minimum. Draft Stafford out of Georgia with the overall number 1 pick (which KC probably will have). Sit Stafford for a year at least and don't get him killed.

4. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

This will be difficult, but a new regime committed to winning might be able to do it.

5. Don't cut or trade LJ

It makes no sense to cut him and eat his cap hit. Try to get 2-3 good years out of him. Behind a revamped line and with a good QB, he may become rejuvinated.

6. Draft well

Everyone needs to stop pretending Herm Edwards has drafted well. He hasn't, and most of his draft picks will be out of the league when their rookie contracts are up.

Even if the free agency plan above goes to plan, the Chiefs are still deficient at most positions. Stafford in the 1st round, and some mixture of WR, OL, LB, and CB over the rest. Do NOT draft any more DTs, RBs, TEs, or Ss.

7. Clean out the coaches and management personnel

Even if they weren't terrible at their jobs (and they are), you need to do this to rebuild faith in the franchise.

Cowher probably won't coach here (quit dreaming, people). Get Lane Kiffin (at least he'll care about Raiders games). Let him rebuild his staff. Throw a dumptruck of money at Scott Pioli to GM here.

What do you think?

I think number "7" should be number "1".

Sn@keIze
10-29-2008, 12:12 AM
I think number "7" should be number "1".Amen:bananen_smilies046:

Dyno-Mite
10-29-2008, 07:50 PM
Really? Losman is an average QB who will come cheap.

You in turn, have said Brodie Croyle should be our starter next year because he practiced against Ty Law and Patrick Surtain.

Grbac, are you really this , or are you just trolling?



Nobody would ever agree with you on here with signing J.P.Losman to a 2 year deal.Your just as as they come.Who agrees with this guy?!!?

jmlamerson
10-29-2008, 08:24 PM
Nobody would ever agree with you on here with signing J.P.Losman to a 2 year deal.Your just as dumb as they come.Who agrees with this guy?!!?

1. If you are going to call others dumb, you might first want to learn the difference between "your" and "you're."

2. You have fixated on this whole Losman thing. I suggested we sign the best FA QB next year while prepping our QB of the future. Losman is the best free agent QB next year. He'd be a better QB than any we have on the roster. Who's against this?

3. On the other hand, you have, apparently, not actually ever watched a Chiefs game as you think that Brodie Croyle is still the Chiefs QB of the future (because, you know, he practiced against Ty Law AND Patrick Surtain) and that Grbac compared favorably with Favre.

There may be other threads on other boards where you come across as anything but an idiot. This isn't one of them.

Dyno-Mite
10-29-2008, 08:38 PM
1. If you are going to call others dumb, you might first want to learn the difference between "your" and "you're."

2. You have fixated on this whole Losman thing. I suggested we sign the best FA QB next year while prepping our QB of the future. Losman is the best free agent QB next year. He'd be a better QB than any we have on the roster. Who's against this?

3. On the other hand, you have, apparently, not actually ever watched a Chiefs game as you think that Brodie Croyle is still the Chiefs QB of the future (because, you know, he practiced against Ty Law AND Patrick Surtain) and that Grbac compared favorably with Favre.

There may be other threads on other boards where you come across as anything but an idiot. This isn't one of them.



You don't make any sense.You've been a Chief fan for only 1 year and mentioning that my opinion on CRoyle as the future for us leads to not watching the Chiefs is you.Oh for the record,I not so sprung on watching CRoyle when he never won a game for us but also is never in a game.That's maybe how you figured I didn't watch him(Chiefs).Why are we still on this Losman thing.You really think he's worthy as the best QB FA pickup.He's not better than Huard,Croyle or Thig.Canada already straightened you out and embarassed you.Go away.

jmlamerson
10-29-2008, 08:41 PM
You don't make any sense.You've been a Chief fan for only 1 year and mentioning that my opinion on CRoyle as the future for us leads to not watching the Chiefs is dumb as you.Oh for the record,I not so sprung on watching CRoyle when he never won a game for us but also is never in a game.That's maybe how you figured I didn't watch him(Chiefs).Why are we still on this Losman thing.You really think he's worthy as the best QB FA pickup.He's not better than Huard,Croyle or Thig.Canada already straightened you out and embarassed you.Go away.

Were you drunk when you wrote this, did your meds wear off, or did you just forget how to write sentences? You might want to learn how to piece a sentence together before posting again.

Dyno-Mite
10-29-2008, 08:49 PM
Were you drunk when you wrote this, did your meds wear off, or did you just forget how to write sentences? You might want to learn how to piece a sentence together before posting again.



Why are you still commenting to a Pro on Chiefs Crowd?If your smart then you would recognize that my posts make sense.Canada,was drunk when he put you in check.I'm sober and you still don't make any sense.Canada can lift a glass of beer up and just spill it on your face.Please go away seriously this time.

tornadospotter
10-29-2008, 08:51 PM
I think number "7" should be number "1".


Amen:bananen_smilies046:
I agree!

jmlamerson
10-29-2008, 09:11 PM
Why are you still commenting to a Pro on Chiefs Crowd?If your smart then you would recognize that my posts make sense.Canada,was drunk when he put you in check.I'm sober and you still don't make any sense.Canada can lift a glass of beer up and just spill it on your face.Please go away seriously this time.

I started this thread. No one asked you to comment in it. You have contributed nothing to this or any other thread except increasingly nonsensical posts.

Have you even watched a football game, ever? Do you know that a QB needs to be able to complete passes to a receiver? That a QB (Croyle) who can't finish a game without injury won't do that? That a QB who will retire at the end of the year (Huard) won't do that? That a QB who can only play in a spread formation (Thigpen) can't do that? That a QB without any sort of accuracy (Grey) can't do that?

Did you know that an o-line requires five actual blockers? We have only three, and one of those is retiring. Just adding one player won't do it.

You have yet to make a single post on this thread that shows you are anything but a twelve year old who has no idea what he is talking about.

Canada
10-29-2008, 09:15 PM
2. You have fixated on this whole Losman thing. I suggested we sign the best FA QB next year while prepping our QB of the future. Losman is the best free agent QB next year. He'd be a better QB than any we have on the roster. Who's against this?



I am...Garcia will be the best free agent option next season. Losman sucks. He make terrible decisions, has a wet noodle for an arm and couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. :bananen_smilies046:

jmlamerson
10-29-2008, 09:19 PM
I am...Garcia will be the best free agent option next season. Losman sucks. He make terrible decisions, has a wet noodle for an arm and couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. :bananen_smilies046:
I thought about both Warner and Garcia, and rejected them because the odds of either (a) not retiring; (b) leaving their current teams, and (c) coming to play in KC, seemed very small.

As for the whole Losman thing, if you want, I'll readily agree that if a better FA QB is available, we should sign him and groom the rookie we draft. I just didn't see a better FA QB that would be available.

Canada
10-29-2008, 09:22 PM
I thought about both Warner and Garcia, and rejected them because the odds of either (a) not retiring; (b) leaving their current teams, and (c) coming to play in KC, seemed very small.

As for the whole Losman thing, if you want, I'll readily agree that if a better FA QB is available, we should sign him and groom the rookie we draft. I just didn't see a better FA QB that would be available.

I am biased cause I really hate the b_lls but I live in Niagara Falls and unfortunately had to see him play a lot (fubbalo is all they show in the bars around here) and I have never been impressed with anything I have ever seen him do. I agree we need a new QB but not Losman or our downhill slide will continue. He could not help Fubbalo win with half decent talent, he has no chance of winning here or teaching someone to win. JMHO:bananen_smilies046:

OTR Chiefs fan
10-30-2008, 01:28 AM
I am biased cause I really hate the b_lls but I live in Niagara Falls and unfortunately had to see him play a lot (fubbalo is all they show in the bars around here) and I have never been impressed with anything I have ever seen him do. I agree we need a new QB but not Losman or our downhill slide will continue. He could not help Fubbalo win with half decent talent, he has no chance of winning here or teaching someone to win. JMHO:bananen_smilies046:

I couldn't agree more. I don't think CP/HE will go FA to find a QB. I think what will happen is that if Thigpen is halfway decent the rest of this season they will keep him on and draft a QB and groom him to be the heir apparent. Management is not into the FA scene, they are totally into the build through the draft mode. :D

texaschief
10-30-2008, 04:55 AM
I had to respond to this, and every other defense of Herm Edwards's drafting abilities.

1. I have never said Flowers would wash out. I have always said that was best KC pick over the past three years.

Really? Flowers is the "best pick?" The 2nd RD CB? wow.

2. You're right - Page, Webb, Stallings, Croyle, Pollard, Hali, Taylor, Smith, Tyler, McBride, Bowe, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, Carr, Franklin, Morgan, Cottam, Charles, Flowers, Albert and Dorsey are all still on the team. Don't you think that is more of a sign that the Chiefs lack talent than how good of picks they were? How many of those do you really think will ever be legitimate starters?

All those will be "legitimate starters." Period.


Hali - A bust. Is getting run over every running play and is unable to rush the passer without a premier pass rusher taking up double teams.

a bust? are you kidding? what are you smoking? Is he a premier, rushing DE? no. that's not what he was drafted to be. he was drafted to be a bookend DE opposite a premier DE in Allen. He needs to go back to his original position.

Webb - A bust. Can't even crack the Chiefs 3rd WR spot despite the distinct lack of talent in the WR corps (outside Bowe).

Any player still in the league his 3rd year after being drafted in the 6th round can't be considered a "bust" until he's out of the league. Get a clue. Hell, any player taken after the 5th round that is still in the league their rookie season has passed the term "bust." To be labeled a "bust" you need to achieve Ryan Sims/Ryan Leaf notoriety. Webb was a 6th round WR who's still in the league.

Stallings - A bust. Can't crack the RG spot despite the immortal Adrian Jones stinking it up over there.

ANOTHER 6th rounder who is still in the league during their 3rd year. I'm sure everyone in Kansas City thought this guy was going to be a Pro Bowl caliber OG when we drafted him too. Again, for a 6th rounder to still be in the league three years later is an achievement. You really should go back and count how many of Vermeil's picks, rounds 1-7 even made it to their 3rd year.... it's ok... the list is short. It won't take long.

Croyle - Look, he is out of the league. He will never play another game. He won't be backing us (or anyone up) next year. He is a massive bust.

I'd say Croyle is a disappointment more than a "bust." Again, if we had drafted him in the first round, like (oh, i don't know, Ryan Leaf/Alex Smith/David Carr?) then maybe he'd be a bust. He's going to be the backup on this team next year because he has another year on his contract and he's definitely worth keeping as a backup. While i hoped he could be the QB of the future, i'm not shocked he couldn't be. But, I'll be happy to take him as the franchise backup. Higher picks than he aren't even in the league anymore.

Pollard - I'll agree to disagree until he's in a coherent defensive scheme.

Yeah, he's only becoming the leader of the defense.

Hali - Hey, you listed him twice! I think you meant Page, who can't tackle or cover - bust.

Page is a "bust?" How the hell is HE a bust? How the hell can you label ANY 7th rounder who made a NFL team a "bust?" Page trails only 17 people in the entire league in picks. You say he can't tackle, but he's not the SS. He's not the guy who should be supporting the run in the first place. I like 3 picks though.

Taylor - He's a servicable 6th OL, but he's shown nothing in the regular season yet to have me believe he's a 16-game starter on the OL.

yeah, Taylor is awful. Especially how he performed in Albert's absence... that was atrocious.

Kolby Smith - A bust. If you want a 3/yd per carry runner, he's your guy. He's not a long-term solution at RB.

wow. A 5th round bust. Kolby was awful last year too. Your player evaluations and judgments are some of the worst I've EVER seen from anybody.

Where's Medlock? Figured you'd throw him in here... although that was Peterson's pick. How else do you explain taking the UCLA K over the best kicker in the draft?


Tyler - A bust. Drafted way to high. Can't stop the run or rush the passer.

LMFAO... sorry.

McBride - See Tyler.

McBride IS NOT a "bust." Although, i do agree that he was drafted too high. He certainly hasn't produced the way a 2nd rounder should. But if he were producing at this level as a 5th round pick, he wouldn't be considered a disappointment at this point in his career.

Bowe - Great pick. Of course, one that Edwards fought.

One that Edwards fought, huh? Where did you hear that?

Merritt - A non-factor this year. He's the Chiefs 4th TE or 2nd FB. Wasted pick either way.

Wasted... unless TG retires in next couple years and we end up needing a blocking TE in the future.... oh, wait.

Johnston - A bust. Can't start over Alfonso Boone despite Herm trying to give him the job.

lol. another 7th round "bust" that still made a NFL team.

Richardson - A bust. Can't start over McIntosh despite Herm trying to give him the job.

Where do you get your info? Everything Edwards has said this year indicated that he wants his starting unit to play together for a while before he starts replacing people. Why does that count for everyone BUT Richardson. Nonetheless, ANOTHER 6th RD "bust" that made a NFL team.


Carr - Solid slot CB.

This is the "Jared Allen" of the past 3 years. He will be the other CB opposite Flowers.

Franklin - A bust. Injury prone and undersized.

Little early to label a guy who beat out some good competition for a roster spot, a "bust" in his first year... but whatever.

Morgan - Undecided - will have to wait and see. Has done nothing yet this year.

Agreed. So, he's OBVIOUSLY a "bust" right?

Cottam - Undecided - will have to wait and see how he performs without Tony G.

Why? He's bigger and faster with better hands.

Charles - Want to see if he can stand up to a real defense before declaring him anyhting more than a 3rd down back, but looked good against the Jets.

He's NOTHING MORE than a 3rd down back. He's a change of pace back to compliment a bruising RB like Johnson. He is what he is. He's our Reggie Bush. Except, we didn't waste a top 2 pick on him.

Flowers - Stud pick. See #1.

Albert - Injury prone and out of place as a LT. Yes, he played LT in high school. He is a better RG and should be moved there.

"injury prone and out of place?" for real guy, you need to figure your sh!# out.

Dorsey - Is getting blown out so far this year. May turn into a stud, but at least not until his 2nd contract.

Defensive Tackles take a couple years to develop. Albert Haynesworth is arguebly THE best DT in the league. He was taken with the 15th pick in 2002 and made his first Pro Bowl in 2007. That's why i haven't given up hope on Tank or Turk yet.

This isn't counting the four picks no longer on the team.

Look, few teams have drafted worse than the Chiefs these past three years. So many rookies have played for the Chiefs, not because they are so good, but because the Chiefs cannot (or will not) attract legitimate free agents.

Can you show me some statistics to back this claim up or are you just spouting more bullsh!#? I'd just like to see some comparison.

For some reason, you think I'm defending Vermeil's drafting abilities. Vermiel, in the first three rounds of 2001 to 2005 drafted:

Derrick Johnson (2005)starter
Colquitt (2005)starter
Junior Siavii (2004)Not in the league
Kris Wilson (2004)backup
Keyaron Fox (2004)backup in Pitt
Larry Johnson (2003)starter
Kawika Mitchell (2003)starter
Julian Battle (2003)not in the league
Ryan Sims (2002)backup in tampa
Eddie Freeman (2002)not in the league
Eric Downing (2001)not in the league
Marvin Minnis (2001)not in the league

3 starters and a punter... nice.

They also traded a 1st and 2nd for Trent Green, who turned out pretty well, and a 2nd for Surtain, who has been servicable as a CB.

Was Trent Green really worth a 1st and 2nd? Give me a break. If we got back P. Manning, MAYBE... but Trent Green? please.



The rest of your post is just random nonsense not worth my time. It's your AWFUL opinion and you're entitled to it. But you posted your player evaluations as if they were fact and you were flat out wrong on almost every single account.

just thought i'd help you out there buddy.

Three7s
10-30-2008, 06:48 AM
Texas, I agree with you on almost everything, just one thing. Albert has been injured twice since preseason, he may not be injury-prone yet, but he's gotta be close.

chief31
10-30-2008, 08:46 AM
Was Trent Green really worth a 1st and 2nd? Give me a break. If we got back P. Manning, MAYBE... but Trent Green? please.
.

Over 20,000 yards in five seasons, with a QB rating over 90? Yeah. That's well worth a 1st and a 2nd.

I'll leave the rest of that for you and jmlamerson to work out. But Green was awefully damn good here for five striaght seasons.

Maybe sometime soon, I will go over the likelihood of finding a 1st round QB that can match that productivity.

yashi
10-30-2008, 10:33 AM
How soon do people forget that Green was a top 3-4 quarterback in the league during his time in KC?

Drunker Hillbilly
10-30-2008, 10:52 AM
Over 20,000 yards in five seasons, with a QB rating over 90? Yeah. That's well worth a 1st and a 2nd.

I'll leave the rest of that for you and jmlamerson to work out. But Green was awefully damn good here for five striaght seasons.

Maybe sometime soon, I will go over the likelihood of finding a 1st round QB that can match that productivity.
I'm on the fence here with this one. While I agree that he was absolutely great while he was here, he was older and toward the end of his most productive days. 1st OR a second yes, first AND a second, just don't know.

jmlamerson
10-30-2008, 11:02 AM
The rest of your post is just random nonsense not worth my time. It's your AWFUL opinion and you're entitled to it. But you posted your player evaluations as if they were fact and you were flat out wrong on almost every single account.

just thought i'd help you out there buddy.

I don't see why you think you're making sense. You are equating being on the Herm Edwards Chiefs for three years to being on any other team in the NFL for three years. Herm Edwards has kept players on this team who could not get work elsewhere in the NFL (Richardson, Johnston, Stallings, Webb, etc.). He has also released those people who have done very well elsewhere (K. Mitchell, T. Richardson, J. Wilkerson). Herm has kept his picks on the team because he cannot attract the necessary free agents to play in those positions with a NFL level of skill. He also wants to keep up his image as a master talent evaluator. This is the way Isiah Thomas held onto his job for years with the Knicks.

None of these players I labeled busts would make the practice squad on most teams.

And yes, Flowers, a 2nd round CB, WAS the best pick made by the Chiefs over the past two years. Bowe was the 2nd best pick. Carr is probably the 3rd. Albert has been injured trying to play LT. He isn't right for it. Did we reach too high for a RG? Probably. But we and he would be much better off playing him there. Charles should be a great 3rd down back. Tell that to the people who claim he'll have success running the ball 20+ times a game.

A small point. It is idiotic for the Chiefs to keep pouring picks into RBs, SSs, and TEs to be backups in case of retirements/trades, when we have established players in front of them. If you are able, explain to me how it makes sense to draft Cottam in the 3rd, sign him to a three-year contract, and then refuse to trade Tony G. Explain to me how it makes sense to draft a SS (he's too slow for FS) in Morgan in the 3rd when you have 23-year-old Pollard cemented in the SS slot?

My point about Vermeil was that he drafted badly. I said it in my post. You chopped it up to make it seem otherwise. Do you think this helps or hurts your credibility?

I wrote that we need to wait and see for most of this year's draft, including Morgan, Charles, Dorsey, Albert, and the other you whined that I slighted. I'm not going to call them successes (or futur stars) before I actually see them do anything successfully.

In a way, I admire your utter committment to the current vision of the team. On the other hand, I'm pretty contemptuous of the fact that you don't know what you're talking about and that you're misstating what I've written.

Dyno-Mite
10-30-2008, 01:08 PM
That Lamerson dude gets pounded on by everybody.He just doesn't make any sense at all.

jmlamerson
10-30-2008, 01:41 PM
That Lamerson dude gets pounded on by everybody.He just doesn't make any sense at all.

I respect your opinion on this as much as I respect your opinion that Grbac was Favre's equal. And your opinion that Croyle is our QB of the future because he got to practice against Law and Surtain.

Really, don't you ever get tired of being wrong, all of the time?

And you insulted a lot of people by referring to you two idiots (you and Texaschief) as "everybody."

Sn@keIze
10-30-2008, 01:49 PM
Over 20,000 yards in five seasons, with a QB rating over 90? Yeah. That's well worth a 1st and a 2nd.

I'll leave the rest of that for you and jmlamerson to work out. But Green was awefully damn good here for five striaght seasons.

Maybe sometime soon, I will go over the likelihood of finding a 1st round QB that can match that productivity.
I agree. Green did what top tier QBs did w/o a stud WR core like a Harrison/Wayne or Bruce/Holt. All he had was TG. Yet he still had several 4000+ yard seasons.

After that Bengals hit tho, Trent never has been the same.

I do understand too bout how TexasChief says 1st and 2nd do to his age. But because of our draft ability goes, if we had to do that again and knew we would have a QB like that for the next 5 years. Id say GO FOR IT!

Dyno-Mite
10-30-2008, 01:52 PM
I respect your opinion on this as much as I respect your opinion that Grbac was Favre's equal. And your opinion that Croyle is our QB of the future because he got to practice against Law and Surtain.

Really, don't you ever get tired of being wrong, all of the time?



The case involving CRoyle practicing against Ty Law and Patrick Surtain was a suggesting towards leaning towards a positive involving him instead of drafting another quarterback instead of allowing CRoyle to get his shot.I'm tired of reading your suck post anyways.I should throw "eggs" at you being that it's Mischief Night.

jmlamerson
10-30-2008, 01:56 PM
The case involving CRoyle practicing against Ty Law and Patrick Surtain was a suggesting towards leaning towards a positive involving him instead of drafting another quarterback instead of allowing CRoyle to get his shot.I'm tired of reading your suck post anyways.I should throw "eggs" at you being that it's Mischief Night.

How old are you? Ten? Twelve?

Your point about Croyle is a bad one, and you should feel bad about it.

No one is making you post. Perhaps you should sit down, learn to read and write, watch some football games, and then come back and post more. You are doing no one any good right now, except me, who enjoys tearing you apart.

Sn@keIze
10-30-2008, 02:10 PM
Will you two lighten up?

JM Lamerson, its obvious you are at least passionate bout the Chiefs. And I dont disagree with some of your facts because they are dead on.

If I had to give you MY 2 cents tho it would be:

1) For the Rookies, give them time before you harp on them too much. Yes it is frustrating watching other rookies Like Chris Johnson, Daunte Avery, Matt Ryan etc. to take off. But there are plenty of other teams that are trying to get the wheels rolling for they're rookies.

2) Dick Vermiel, I do blame a lot of our bad drafting on Dick. But he didnt have a lot to say on others either. He didnt want LJ. We couldve gotten Troy P. LB Nick Barnett or stud CB Ndami Asoughma. Those guys just off the top of my head in that draft. (All pro bowlers).

3)Carl Peterson, every point you make has an influence by him. Fix him.....fix a lot of these problems.

Dyno-Mite
10-30-2008, 02:15 PM
How old are you? Ten? Twelve?

Your point about Croyle is a bad one, and you should feel bad about it.

No one is making you post. Perhaps you should sit down, learn to read and write, watch some football games, and then come back and post more. You are doing no one any good right now, except me, who enjoys tearing you apart.


How would you feel if dozens of eggs were thrown at you!!???!Consider me as the 1 that destroyed your career here on Chiefs Crowd.My mission with Chiefs Crowd is finished.Be safe on the streets tonight because "eggs" are coming your way.:borg:

jmlamerson
10-30-2008, 02:34 PM
How would you feel if dozens of eggs were thrown at you!!???!Consider me as the 1 that destroyed your career here on Chiefs Crowd.My mission with Chiefs Crowd is finished.Be safe on the streets tonight because "eggs" are coming your way.:borg:

It's too nice to say you have delusions of granduer.

You have delusions of mediocrity.

jmlamerson
10-30-2008, 02:43 PM
Will you two lighten up?

JM Lamerson, its obvious you are at least passionate bout the Chiefs. And I dont disagree with some of your facts because they are dead on.

If I had to give you MY 2 cents tho it would be:

1) For the Rookies, give them time before you harp on them too much. Yes it is frustrating watching other rookies Like Chris Johnson, Daunte Avery, Matt Ryan etc. to take off. But there are plenty of other teams that are trying to get the wheels rolling for they're rookies.

2) Dick Vermiel, I do blame a lot of our bad drafting on Dick. But he didnt have a lot to say on others either. He didnt want LJ. We couldve gotten Troy P. LB Nick Barnett or stud CB Ndami Asoughma. Those guys just off the top of my head in that draft. (All pro bowlers).

3)Carl Peterson, every point you make has an influence by him. Fix him.....fix a lot of these problems.

I am content to just post here about the Chiefs, unlike some idiots. Eggs? Can we ban the mentally challenged from the board, or at least his thread?

1. True about the rookies. And I'm not going after most of this year's class as players. I'm just saying that they were bad picks for our team. That we've drafted gluts of players at S, TE, DL, and RB in the first three rounds, and few at OL, LB, and QB in the first three rounds. That guys like Morgan, Charles, and Cottam may have Hall of Fame talent - but they won't do the Chiefs any good because they're deep on the depth chart behind players not leaving anytime soon.

We've ignored positions of need for players we don't need. We keep drafting players who won't help this team rebuild no matter how much talent they have.

2. Vermiel did not draft well at all. But he didn't draft worse than Herm. That's all I'm saying. And Vermeil, for all of his faults, could coach this team to a better record than 1-15 over the past 16 games.

3. I agree entirely.

Canada
10-30-2008, 03:21 PM
Why do you want to ban me?

jmlamerson
10-30-2008, 03:35 PM
Why do you want to ban me?

FINE! I'll drop the criteria to mentally disabled! Happy?

Seriously, some posters on this thread (not you, obviously) come off as dim ten-year-olds.

texaschief
10-30-2008, 03:43 PM
Over 20,000 yards in five seasons, with a QB rating over 90? Yeah. That's well worth a 1st and a 2nd.

I'll leave the rest of that for you and jmlamerson to work out. But Green was awefully damn good here for five striaght seasons.

Maybe sometime soon, I will go over the likelihood of finding a 1st round QB that can match that productivity.


How would Drew Brees sound on this team if we had taken a QB instead of trading our 1st and 2nd to the Rams? He's in his prime right now and wasn't exactly horrible in San Diego. Brees was the next QB taken after the the 12th pick.

Then, instead of trading another top pick in 2002 for Willie Roaf, we could've drafted Maurice Williams in the 2nd round. Imagine that.... ACTUALLY DEVELOPING talent instead of paying a high price for players with only 5 years left until retirement. Both Brees and Williams would be cornerstones of the team right now.

Then, because we wouldn't have to trade for Roaf, we'd have another high pick the following year in which to draft and develop.

But, knowing Vermeil's drafting ability, he probably would've drafted Freddie Mitchell in the first and Kendrell Bell in the 2nd. So, knowing that Vermeil was in charge of the draft board, trading our first two picks for Green, probably WAS the best option.


I don't see why you think you're making sense. You are equating being on the Herm Edwards Chiefs for three years to being on any other team in the NFL for three years. Herm Edwards has kept players on this team who could not get work elsewhere in the NFL (Richardson, Johnston, Stallings, Webb, etc.). He has also released those people who have done very well elsewhere (K. Mitchell, T. Richardson, J. Wilkerson).

Actually, Richardson left. Mitchell is average AT BEST and in what world is Wilkerson a good player?

Herm has kept his picks on the team because he cannot attract the necessary free agents to play in those positions with a NFL level of skill. He also wants to keep up his image as a master talent evaluator. This is the way Isiah Thomas held onto his job for years with the Knicks.

Actually, (I'm sorry I have to keep setting you straight), but Herm Edwards was voted 4th by players in term of who they would "most like to play for.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=5162207

" But, your random nonsense about "not being able to attract free agents" sounds so much better if you could have some kind of proof to support your theories. I guess you missed the part all off season when the franchise said they weren't going to pursue free agents.

None of these players I labeled busts would make the practice squad on most teams.

lmfao... yeah, ok.

And yes, Flowers, a 2nd round CB, WAS the best pick made by the Chiefs over the past two years. Bowe was the 2nd best pick. Carr is probably the 3rd. Albert has been injured trying to play LT. He isn't right for it. Did we reach too high for a RG? Probably. But we and he would be much better off playing him there. Charles should be a great 3rd down back. Tell that to the people who claim he'll have success running the ball 20+ times a game.

I'd love to. I watched him his entire collegiate career and can tell you that he's not a featured back in the NFL.

A small point. It is idiotic for the Chiefs to keep pouring picks into RBs, SSs, and TEs to be backups in case of retirements/trades, when we have established players in front of them.

yeah, i guess it's idiotic... if you don't NEED them. The Chiefs are bringing the KR into the RB rotation because LJ is out, Charles is hurt and we don't have anyone else to backup Smith.

If you are able, explain to me how it makes sense to draft Cottam in the 3rd, sign him to a three-year contract, and then refuse to trade Tony G. Explain to me how it makes sense to draft a SS (he's too slow for FS) in Morgan in the 3rd when you have 23-year-old Pollard cemented in the SS slot?

The fact is, Gonzo WILL be retiring soon and you don't wait until a player is retired to think about replacing him. *see Roaf/Shields. Cottam is a rookie. Like any rookie, if you're able to let him see an all-pro for a year or two before letting him play, then you do that... regardless of where you draft him. If you can afford to let him sit, let him sit. Also, if you don't receive what you're asking for, why would you trade one of your best players? You're telling me you would've been ok with a 3rd, 4th or 5th rounder for TG?

Who would've been the backup SS if Morgan wasn't drafted?

My point about Vermeil was that he drafted badly. I said it in my post. You chopped it up to make it seem otherwise. Do you think this helps or hurts your credibility?

I didn't chop anything up. Facts are facts. You seem to think it's ok for the Chiefs to have traded away 1st and 2nd round picks like they were going out of style for players who performed well.... but for only 4 or 5 years. That's NOT how you develop a team for long-term success. That's how you sell off all your long-term assets for short-term success. It didn't work, and now the Chiefs are paying a VERY hefty price and trying to lay ALL the blame on someone who at the VERY least understands that you can't build a long-term winner with other team's cast-offs.

I wrote that we need to wait and see for most of this year's draft, including Morgan, Charles, Dorsey, Albert, and the other you whined that I slighted. I'm not going to call them successes (or futur stars) before I actually see them do anything successfully.

In a way, I admire your utter committment to the current vision of the team. On the other hand, I'm pretty contemptuous of the fact that you don't know what you're talking about and that you're misstating what I've written.

In no way have i EVER changed ANYTHING you've written in your posts. So, if i've never touched your written words, it's impossible to "misstate" ANYTHING you've written. Your lack of football knowledge is staggering. Your talent evaluation is worse the Vermeil's and you're tying to call ME out on credibility? LMFAO!!! At least i can support my claims. You spout random bullsh!# like it's truth without any support, whatsoever.

I've been here talking about the Chiefs for two years now. My take on the Chiefs, my knowledge of football and writing ability has led me to the point where i've been asked to write commentaries on other websites, be a founding member on other websites and flat out kick your *** rhetorically whenever i feel like it.

My "credibility" as been well established. Get a clue. :sign0104:



I respect your opinion on this as much as I respect your opinion that Grbac was Favre's equal. And your opinion that Croyle is our QB of the future because he got to practice against Law and Surtain.

Really, don't you ever get tired of being wrong, all of the time?

And you insulted a lot of people by referring to you two idiots (you and Texaschief) as "everybody."

Really? :sign0098:

Sn@keIze
10-30-2008, 03:44 PM
Why do you want to ban me?
Canada, your not classified as "mentally disabled".

Your just classified as .....um, whats the technical term?..........oh yeah..."drunk." :bananen_smilies046:

jmlamerson
10-30-2008, 04:28 PM
I don't see why you think you're making sense. You are equating being on the Herm Edwards Chiefs for three years to being on any other team in the NFL for three years. Herm Edwards has kept players on this team who could not get work elsewhere in the NFL (Richardson, Johnston, Stallings, Webb, etc.). He has also released those people who have done very well elsewhere (K. Mitchell, T. Richardson, J. Wilkerson).

Actually, Richardson left. Mitchell is average AT BEST and in what world is Wilkerson a good player?

Herm has kept his picks on the team because he cannot attract the necessary free agents to play in those positions with a NFL level of skill. He also wants to keep up his image as a master talent evaluator. This is the way Isiah Thomas held onto his job for years with the Knicks.

Actually, (I'm sorry I have to keep setting you straight), but Herm Edwards was voted 4th by players in term of who they would "most like to play for.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=5162207 (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=5162207)

" But, your random nonsense about "not being able to attract free agents" sounds so much better if you could have some kind of proof to support your theories. I guess you missed the part all off season when the franchise said they weren't going to pursue free agents.

None of these players I labeled busts would make the practice squad on most teams.

lmfao... yeah, ok.

And yes, Flowers, a 2nd round CB, WAS the best pick made by the Chiefs over the past two years. Bowe was the 2nd best pick. Carr is probably the 3rd. Albert has been injured trying to play LT. He isn't right for it. Did we reach too high for a RG? Probably. But we and he would be much better off playing him there. Charles should be a great 3rd down back. Tell that to the people who claim he'll have success running the ball 20+ times a game.

I'd love to. I watched him his entire collegiate career and can tell you that he's not a featured back in the NFL.

A small point. It is idiotic for the Chiefs to keep pouring picks into RBs, SSs, and TEs to be backups in case of retirements/trades, when we have established players in front of them.

yeah, i guess it's idiotic... if you don't NEED them. The Chiefs are bringing the KR into the RB rotation because LJ is out, Charles is hurt and we don't have anyone else to backup Smith.

If you are able, explain to me how it makes sense to draft Cottam in the 3rd, sign him to a three-year contract, and then refuse to trade Tony G. Explain to me how it makes sense to draft a SS (he's too slow for FS) in Morgan in the 3rd when you have 23-year-old Pollard cemented in the SS slot?

The fact is, Gonzo WILL be retiring soon and you don't wait until a player is retired to think about replacing him. *see Roaf/Shields. Cottam is a rookie. Like any rookie, if you're able to let him see an all-pro for a year or two before letting him play, then you do that... regardless of where you draft him. If you can afford to let him sit, let him sit. Also, if you don't receive what you're asking for, why would you trade one of your best players? You're telling me you would've been ok with a 3rd, 4th or 5th rounder for TG?

Who would've been the backup SS if Morgan wasn't drafted?

My point about Vermeil was that he drafted badly. I said it in my post. You chopped it up to make it seem otherwise. Do you think this helps or hurts your credibility?

I didn't chop anything up. Facts are facts. You seem to think it's ok for the Chiefs to have traded away 1st and 2nd round picks like they were going out of style for players who performed well.... but for only 4 or 5 years. That's NOT how you develop a team for long-term success. That's how you sell off all your long-term assets for short-term success. It didn't work, and now the Chiefs are paying a VERY hefty price and trying to lay ALL the blame on someone who at the VERY least understands that you can't build a long-term winner with other team's cast-offs.

I wrote that we need to wait and see for most of this year's draft, including Morgan, Charles, Dorsey, Albert, and the other you whined that I slighted. I'm not going to call them successes (or futur stars) before I actually see them do anything successfully.

In a way, I admire your utter committment to the current vision of the team. On the other hand, I'm pretty contemptuous of the fact that you don't know what you're talking about and that you're misstating what I've written.

In no way have i EVER changed ANYTHING you've written in your posts. So, if i've never touched your written words, it's impossible to "misstate" ANYTHING you've written. Your lack of football knowledge is staggering. Your talent evaluation is worse the Vermeil's and you're tying to call ME out on credibility? LMFAO!!! At least i can support my claims. You spout random bullsh!# like it's truth without any support, whatsoever.

I've been here talking about the Chiefs for two years now. My take on the Chiefs, my knowledge of football and writing ability has led me to the point where i've been asked to write commentaries on other websites, be a founding member on other websites and flat out kick your *** rhetorically whenever i feel like it.

My "credibility" as been well established. Get a clue.

I wonder if you really believe what you write? You're qualifications are pathetic, and you don't seem to realize it. A founding member of websites? Commentaries? Big deal. No one cares. No one has any reason to care. They say a thousand chimps with a thousand typewriters would type the works of Shakespeare. One chimp with one typewriter could type the works of texaschief.

Richardson left for the same reason Tony wants out - they can't stand playing for a lousy coach/GM. Wilkerson would be our best defensive lineman right now. Mitchell was integral part of a SB winning team and is lighting it up in Buffalo. It was a terrible move to let him go in favor of the Williams/Thomas/Napo trifecta.

An acronym isn't the same as an argument. On what teams could any of the people I listed as busts actually start for?

If you need safeties, TEs, and RBs as insurance for injury, you sign cheap FAs. TEs, RBs, and Ss are the most replaceable players on the team. You don't draft them in the 3rd round when you have glaring holes at key positions. That's the difference between a good GM and a bad one.

You're missing the point on Cottam (and by extension Morgan and Charles). I'll simplify this:

Cottam was signed by the Chiefs from 2008 to 2010.
Cottam will not be a starting TE as long as Tony Gonzalez is starting.
Tony Gonzales is intended to be the starting TE for the next few years (at least until 2010).
The Chiefs refuse to trade Tony G.
Cottam has little value until Tony is not longer starting.
Cottam has little value as a pick.

Is Tony worth more than a low 3rd? Yep. Are you going to get more than a low 3rd for him? Nope. Why draft a TE of the future and then hold onto the veteren in front of him, especially if you don't plan to be competitive for the remaining years the veteran has?

The Chiefs traded one first rounder and two second rounders for Trent Green and Patrick Surtain. Those were good trades for a team looking to win now. There isn't a successful team out there that hasn't made much, much worse picks/trades with high picks. Both were contributors to a 13-3 team that (unfortunately) flamed out in a puntless (both sides) game. I don't regret those trades for even a second.

And, by the way, if a team is stupid to trade for a veteran with only a couple years left with a high pick, why do you think we could get a high pick for Tony G.?

If you can name one free agent of any worth who's willing to sign with KC to play for our head coach (all money being equal), I'll buy you a coke. Players see Edwards as a nice guy and soft touch. Not as a good coach. Otherwise, you wouldn't see every quality Chief in his prime trying to leave, and people retiring rather than play for him.

You develop a team for long term success by having:

1) A franchise QB
2) A good OL
3) A good DL
4) A good coach
5) A good GM

Those are the five things every rebuilding team needs. They are the five things EVERY successful team has. Atlanta now has them. Miami now has them. The Chiefs don't have ANY OF THEM. That's why the other two are rebuilding and the Chiefs aren't.

texaschief
10-30-2008, 05:01 PM
I wonder if you really believe what you write? You're qualifications are pathetic, and you don't seem to realize it. A founding member of websites? Commentaries? Big deal. No one cares. No one has any reason to care. They say a thousand chimps with a thousand typewriters would type the works of Shakespeare. One chimp with one typewriter could type the works of texaschief.

yawn

Richardson left for the same reason Tony wants out - they can't stand playing for a lousy coach/GM. Wilkerson would be our best defensive lineman right now. Mitchell was integral part of a SB winning team and is lighting it up in Buffalo. It was a terrible move to let him go in favor of the Williams/Thomas/Napo trifecta.

So, you think the Giants wouldn't have won the Super Bowl without Mitchell? LMAO. Whatever dude.

An acronym isn't the same as an argument. On what teams could any of the people I listed as busts actually start for?

If you need safeties, TEs, and RBs as insurance for injury, you sign cheap FAs. TEs, RBs, and Ss are the most replaceable players on the team. You don't draft them in the 3rd round when you have glaring holes at key positions. That's the difference between a good GM and a bad one.

safeties and TE's are easy to replace cheaply and effectively, huh? lol

You're missing the point on Cottam (and by extension Morgan and Charles). I'll simplify this:

Cottam was signed by the Chiefs from 2008 to 2010.
Cottam will not be a starting TE as long as Tony Gonzalez is starting.
Tony Gonzales is intended to be the starting TE for the next few years (at least until 2010).
The Chiefs refuse to trade Tony G.
Cottam has little value until Tony is not longer starting.
Cottam has little value as a pick.

TG will probably retire after '09. Cottam's contract is a rookie contract and will be extended before he gets to free agency. I'm getting bored with you. Could you at least pretend you know something about player development and the NFL before you start to ramble like this? good lord.

Is Tony worth more than a low 3rd? Yep. Are you going to get more than a low 3rd for him? Nope. Why draft a TE of the future and then hold onto the veteren in front of him, especially if you don't plan to be competitive for the remaining years the veteran has?
This is your ignorance summed up all in one sentence. This line of thinking is EXACTLY why the Chiefs are in the hole their in. There is absolutely no foresight in the franchise. You don't wait until you have a hole, to fill it. You DEVELOP players behind All-Pro's and then, when those All-Pro's retire, your players are ready to step in. See LJ/Holmes, Rogers/Favre, Bledsoe/Brady... etc.

The Chiefs traded one first rounder and two second rounders for Trent Green and Patrick Surtain. Those were good trades for a team looking to win now. There isn't a successful team out there that hasn't made much, much worse picks/trades with high picks. :sign0153: Both were contributors to a 13-3 team that (unfortunately) flamed out in a puntless (both sides) game. The Colts punted in that game. Look it up. A penalty on the Chiefs gave the Colts a first down. I don't regret those trades for even a second.

And, by the way, if a team is stupid to trade for a veteran with only a couple years left with a high pick, why do you think we could get a high pick for Tony G.?

Other franchises aren't fu@#$%# stupid like the Carl Peterson Chiefs. That's my point. YOU DON'T TRADE HIGH DRAFT PICKS FOR PLAYERS WHO ARE ABOUT TO RETIRE!!!! HELLLLOOOOO!!!! So, obviously, Gonzo has more value to the Chiefs as a player than a bargaining chip... SO.... YOU KEEP HIM. It doesn't matter if you have a highly regarded rookie or not.

If you can name one free agent of any worth who's willing to sign with KC to play for our head coach (all money being equal), I'll buy you a coke. Players see Edwards as a nice guy and soft touch. Not as a good coach. Otherwise, you wouldn't see every quality Chief in his prime trying to leave, and people retiring rather than play for him.

You develop a team for long term success by having:

1) A franchise QB- Don't have one
2) A good OL- Building one because we haven't drafted ANY this ENTIRE DECADE
3) A good DL- The Chiefs are developing one. it takes time.
4) A good coach- I've seen Herm coach ONE year with a solid, consistent QB. So, until i see him coach with a healthy QB, I'm reserving judgement.
5) A good GM- We need one

Those are the five things every rebuilding team needs. They are the five things EVERY successful team has. Atlanta now has them. Miami now has them. The Chiefs don't have ANY OF THEM. That's why the other two are rebuilding and the Chiefs aren't.

Atlanta has a QB
Miami has a QB
Cinci-Hurt QB
St. Louis-LOL no QB
KC- no QB
Detroit-no QB
SF- no QB

Maybe it's just me... but i see a pattern here. Maybe it's not ALL coaching... huh?

jmlamerson
10-30-2008, 05:15 PM
Atlanta has a QB
Miami has a QB
Cinci-Hurt QB
St. Louis-LOL no QB
KC- no QB
Detroit-no QB
SF- no QB

Maybe it's just me... but i see a pattern here. Maybe it's not ALL coaching... huh?

St. Louis has Bulger as it's QB of the present. They are a perfect example of a team held back by a coach. Watch them finish 7-9 with hope for next year bcause Haslett's coachin now.

Look at Miami. Are they respectable just because of Chad "Noodle Arm" Pennington? No. They are using him to prep Henne. They are winning because they got a real coach, a real GM, and rebuilt their lines.

Look at Atlanta and Baltimore. Both have rookie QBs. both are respectable because they have good coaches, GMs, and have rebuilt their lines.

Neither the Lions nor SF have a good coach (Singletery may turn out to be good), GM, OL, DL, or QB. That's my point.

Look at Chicago, where good lines and a good coach are making Kyle Orton look very good.

Look at MN, which is winning despite it's lousy QB play, because of their great lines.

The Chiefs aren't losing just because they lack a QB. They're losing because they lack talent in almost every vital spot on the lines and in management.

One last thing on Tony G. He will retire or be traded for less than a 3rd in the offseason. He is not playing for the Chiefs in 2009. Everyone who was against the trade will look like an idiot.

And you still have yet to say what player I referenced as a bust could start elsewhere in the NFL.

Canada
10-30-2008, 05:33 PM
Canada, your not classified as "mentally disabled".

Your just classified as .....um, whats the technical term?..........oh yeah..."drunk." :bananen_smilies046:

:drunkhb: :D :beer:

texaschief
10-30-2008, 06:23 PM
St. Louis has Bulger as it's QB of the present. They are a perfect example of a team held back by a coach. Watch them finish 7-9 with hope for next year bcause Haslett's coachin now.

Trent Green is their "QB of the future?" Bulger has been benched.

Look at Miami. Are they respectable just because of Chad "Noodle Arm" Pennington? No. They are using him to prep Henne. They are winning because they got a real coach, a real GM, and rebuilt their lines.

So, it's ok to use a player to "prep" another player or not? come on man, pick one side of the fence and stick with it. You think Miami would be this far along if Beck were at the helm like he was last year? How bout Lemon?

Look at Atlanta and Baltimore. Both have rookie QBs. both are respectable because they have good coaches, GMs, and have rebuilt their lines.

Baltimore has a good-great defense... THAT'S why they're "respectable." They're currently ranked #2 in the league in TOTAL DEFENSE. BTW, they're also ranked #5 in rushing offense. (usually a good combo) But, you go off the deep end and consider John Harbaugh a "real coach" who has coached them to their winning record. It had NOTHING to do with the coach that was there before him, right?

Atlanta ALREADY had a good team in place before Ryan came in. Go back a season. The Falcons were picked to contend for the Super Bowl before Vick had his episodes. Neither the Falcons nor Ravens can be compared to the Chiefs. btw, what has Mike Smith done during his career that makes you consider him a "real" coach?

The ONLY team who could be compared to the Chiefs right now is the Dolphins. They decided to build thru the draft, just like the Chiefs. The difference between the two teams is the QB spot. Sporano is a "real coach" in your opinion too, huh?

Neither the Lions nor SF have a good coach (Singletery may turn out to be good), GM, OL, DL, or QB. That's my point.

Look at Chicago, where good lines and a good coach are making Kyle Orton look very good.

Tell me, did Chicago build that team thru free agency or did they go ahead and build thru the draft? Do you REALLY think Lovie Smith and Herm Edwards are different coaches? Hell, throw Dungie in there as well. Those three coaches are exactly identicle. They all want to build thru the draft. It just takes time for these players to develop. Look how long its taken the Bears to get where they are. They had a great year two years ago, but they're still around. They have a good, young team that was built thru the draft. The Bears, Patriots, Chargers and Colts are EXACTLY the model this franchise is trying to follow. Again, it just takes time.

Look at MN, which is winning despite it's lousy QB play, because of their great lines.

Minnesota? They might have a good offensive line, but their defensive line is statistically worse than the Chiefs... so.... try again.

The Chiefs aren't losing just because they lack a QB. They're losing because they lack talent in almost every vital spot on the lines and in management.

says you. I DEFINITELY wouldn't take your word for it. ESPECIALLY after looking at your draft evaluations.

One last thing on Tony G. He will retire or be traded for less than a 3rd in the offseason. He is not playing for the Chiefs in 2009. Everyone who was against the trade will look like an idiot.

I wasn't against it. I suggested trading him before the season started. You'd know if you had been here for more than a week. I'm just not dumb enough to suggest/settle trading him for less than his worth.

And you still have yet to say what player I referenced as a bust could start elsewhere in the NFL.

Without going back and looking at your list, here's a couple off the top of my head:
Hali would be a starter.
Page would be a starter.
Kolby Smith would be a starter.

Your analysis of these players is slanted. If these young players were on other teams, they would be "stuck" behind other players, getting no experience. The problem you have with the Chiefs drafting Cottam and not trading TG, applies to these players who "wouldn't even start for another NFL team." Again, playing both sides of the fence.

The reason not many of these young players would start for other teams is the SAME reason Cottam doesn't start for the Chiefs. They would be learning behind more experienced and developed players. You sound like you expect these 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players to be playing like Pro Bowl caliber players straight out of college. That's just not a reasonable expectation.

Not EVERYONE is a Shawn Merriman.

jmlamerson
10-30-2008, 06:32 PM
Without going back and looking at your list, here's a couple off the top of my head:
Hali would be a starter.
Page would be a starter.
Kolby Smith would be a starter.

Your analysis of these players is slanted. If these young players were on other teams, they would be "stuck" behind other players, getting no experience. The problem you have with the Chiefs drafting Cottam and not trading TG, applies to these players who "wouldn't even start for another NFL team." Again, playing both sides of the fence.

The reason not many of these young players would start for other teams is the SAME reason Cottam doesn't start for the Chiefs. They would be learning behind more experienced and developed players. You sound like you expect these 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players to be playing like Pro Bowl caliber players straight out of college. That's just not a reasonable expectation.

Not EVERYONE is a Shawn Merriman.

I'll answer the rest of this later, but the proof of your absoulte ignorance of football is your statement that:

Trent Green is their "QB of the future?" Bulger has been benched.

You do not know what you are talking about. Linehan benched Bulger, lost with Green, and was fired. Haslett reinstated Bulger as the starter, and they're 2-1 since. Try to actually watch the games instead of just commenting on them.

nigeriannightmare
10-30-2008, 06:52 PM
Texas Chiefs-Herm sucks, give him Tom Brady and he'd find a way to lose. What more do you need to see from this guy. I understand you want to be optimistic and look to the future, but Herm isn't the answer. Great DB coach, scout, but HC he is not.

texaschief
10-30-2008, 07:22 PM
I'll answer the rest of this later, but the proof of your absoulte ignorance of football is your statement that:

Trent Green is their "QB of the future?" Bulger has been benched.

You do not know what you are talking about. Linehan benched Bulger, lost with Green, and was fired. Haslett reinstated Bulger as the starter, and they're 2-1 since. Try to actually watch the games instead of just commenting on them.

You're right. I wish we had 31 year old Bulger with his 79.5 passer rating to build on as our "QB of the future." The fact this guy was benched for T. Green should be enough to prove this guy is FAAAAAR from a franchise QB.

chief31
10-31-2008, 03:48 AM
That Lamerson dude gets pounded on by everybody.He just doesn't make any sense at all.

Haven't you ever noticed that you are easily considered the least respected member of this board?

Have a look at your 'Rep'. That really tells the story, and I don't think I have ever even given you neg-rep. That has been the rest of the site.


How old are you? Ten? Twelve?

Your point about Croyle is a bad one, and you should feel bad about it.

No one is making you post. Perhaps you should sit down, learn to read and write, watch some football games, and then come back and post more. You are doing no one any good right now, except me, who enjoys tearing you apart.

I never even bother with posts from Grbac, as it is just way too far-fetched to be a real opinion.


You're right. I wish we had 31 year old Bulger with his 79.5 passer rating to build on as our "QB of the future." The fact this guy was benched for T. Green should be enough to prove this guy is FAAAAAR from a franchise QB.

87.5 for his career. I'm just sayin'.

Peyton Manning currently has a passerr rating of 79 for the season. I'm just sayin'.

And showing that there were great picks that could have been used in place of getting Green and Roaf is futile.

But, if you want to, let's compare every pick that Herm took ahead of Jared Allen and Tom Brady, and say that he is a horrible talent evaluator.

My value for a 1st and a 2nd is gonna be a vague guess at the avreage production from them. Not the best possible pick that could have been made.

Anyway, (DT) Damione Lewis < http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5459/career;_ylt=AmSm0A2kTppTMyLAhOQzGnX.uLYF > is the player that was drafted with the Green-swap pick. And The Chiefs also gained a 5th round pick, which they used to select (HB)Derrick Blaylock. < http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5598/career;_ylt=AmSm0A2kTppTMyLAhOQzGnX.uLYF >

Looking at it like that, I'd say we did exceptionally well with that pick. You?

And the 4th round pick that went for Roaf was used to select (G) Montrae Holland < http://www.nfl.com/players/montraeho...e?id=HOL154433 (http://www.nfl.com/players/montraeholland/profile?id=HOL154433) >

I'd also say that we got the better end of that deal.

Trade compensation sources:
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2002/03...t_willie_roaf/ (http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2002/03/26/chiefs_trade_for_seventime_pro_bowl_t_willie_roaf/)
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2001/04...lmes__wr_horne (http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2001/04/21/kc_acquires_qb_trent_green_5th_round_pick_in_trade _with_rams_also_acquire_rb_holmes__wr_horne)

jmlamerson
10-31-2008, 04:31 PM
Look at Miami. Are they respectable just because of Chad "Noodle Arm" Pennington? No. They are using him to prep Henne. They are winning because they got a real coach, a real GM, and rebuilt their lines.

So, it's ok to use a player to "prep" another player or not? come on man, pick one side of the fence and stick with it. You think Miami would be this far along if Beck were at the helm like he was last year? How bout Lemon?

Look at Atlanta and Baltimore. Both have rookie QBs. both are respectable because they have good coaches, GMs, and have rebuilt their lines.

Baltimore has a good-great defense... THAT'S why they're "respectable." They're currently ranked #2 in the league in TOTAL DEFENSE. BTW, they're also ranked #5 in rushing offense. (usually a good combo) But, you go off the deep end and consider John Harbaugh a "real coach" who has coached them to their winning record. It had NOTHING to do with the coach that was there before him, right?

Atlanta ALREADY had a good team in place before Ryan came in. Go back a season. The Falcons were picked to contend for the Super Bowl before Vick had his episodes. Neither the Falcons nor Ravens can be compared to the Chiefs. btw, what has Mike Smith done during his career that makes you consider him a "real" coach?

The ONLY team who could be compared to the Chiefs right now is the Dolphins. They decided to build thru the draft, just like the Chiefs. The difference between the two teams is the QB spot. Sporano is a "real coach" in your opinion too, huh?

Neither the Lions nor SF have a good coach (Singletery may turn out to be good), GM, OL, DL, or QB. That's my point.

Look at Chicago, where good lines and a good coach are making Kyle Orton look very good.

Tell me, did Chicago build that team thru free agency or did they go ahead and build thru the draft? Do you REALLY think Lovie Smith and Herm Edwards are different coaches? Hell, throw Dungie in there as well. Those three coaches are exactly identicle. They all want to build thru the draft. It just takes time for these players to develop. Look how long its taken the Bears to get where they are. They had a great year two years ago, but they're still around. They have a good, young team that was built thru the draft. The Bears, Patriots, Chargers and Colts are EXACTLY the model this franchise is trying to follow. Again, it just takes time.

Look at MN, which is winning despite it's lousy QB play, because of their great lines.

Minnesota? They might have a good offensive line, but their defensive line is statistically worse than the Chiefs... so.... try again.

The Chiefs aren't losing just because they lack a QB. They're losing because they lack talent in almost every vital spot on the lines and in management.

says you. I DEFINITELY wouldn't take your word for it. ESPECIALLY after looking at your draft evaluations.

One last thing on Tony G. He will retire or be traded for less than a 3rd in the offseason. He is not playing for the Chiefs in 2009. Everyone who was against the trade will look like an idiot.

I wasn't against it. I suggested trading him before the season started. You'd know if you had been here for more than a week. I'm just not dumb enough to suggest/settle trading him for less than his worth.

And you still have yet to say what player I referenced as a bust could start elsewhere in the NFL.

Without going back and looking at your list, here's a couple off the top of my head:
Hali would be a starter.
Page would be a starter.
Kolby Smith would be a starter.

Your analysis of these players is slanted. If these young players were on other teams, they would be "stuck" behind other players, getting no experience. The problem you have with the Chiefs drafting Cottam and not trading TG, applies to these players who "wouldn't even start for another NFL team." Again, playing both sides of the fence.

The reason not many of these young players would start for other teams is the SAME reason Cottam doesn't start for the Chiefs. They would be learning behind more experienced and developed players. You sound like you expect these 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players to be playing like Pro Bowl caliber players straight out of college. That's just not a reasonable expectation.

Not EVERYONE is a Shawn Merriman.

OK, going through these one by one, just to put the final nails in your coffin:

1. Just be a man and admit you were wrong about Bulger. Linehan was fired for benching him.

2. What are you talking about, with regards to Miami? Pennington is an upgrade over Beck or Lemon (who isn't). He's still not a franchise (or top 15) QB. He'll be only playing for them for 2-3 years. His job is to keep Miami competitive and to tutor Beck. He's not their franchise QB.

It's fine to prep a player. In fact, everything being equal that would be ideal. It isn't OK to draft a guy in the third round in a position you're glutted in when you have massive holes in the OL.

3. Your points on Atlanta and Miami are poorly thought out.

Atlanta was not considered a championship caliber team before Vick's incarceration. They were a 3-13 team last year. They turned it around because they got a real coach and GM, got a franchise QB, signed a hard working young RB, and drafted their lines.

Mike Smith was an excellent coordinator who has the Falcons overachieving. He looks like he'll be a great head coach. Am I ready to anoint him the next Bill Walsh? No. Would I rather have him (or John Harbaugh) than Herm Edwards? Absolutely.

As for the Ravens, their D is good because they have consistently drafted good linemen (Ngata, Suggs, etc.). Their offense is usually their weakest spot, but their OL is keeping their new franchise QB upright. They have a great GM and Harbaugh looks like the real deal at coach. They have rebuilt in exactly the way the chiefs should have - draft lines, sign a good coach, and pick a franchise QB who can stand a NFL hit.

3. Chicago built its team through the draft and through FA. Indy built its team mostly through the draft, I'll fully admit. But when you have geniuses like Bill Polian/Tony Dungy drafting, you can do that. Tony Dungy is smart enough to leave his offense in capable hands (they don't play Dungyball). He drafts OL and DL constantly in the first three rounds. Herm and Carl draft TEs, Ss, and RBs in the first three rounds. They don't have the drafting abilities to build through the draft.

And if you think Herm Edwards is a tenth as good as Tony Dungy or Lovie Smith as a coach, you know less than I thought you did. Dungy is the greatest defensive coach of the modern era. Lovie is in the top 5. Herm's defense is as bad a Vermeil's.

4. If I wanted proof of your complete lack of knowledge about football, here it is:

Minnesota? They might have a good offensive line, but their defensive line is statistically worse than the Chiefs... so.... try again.

In what statistical area is the Vikings DL worse than the Chiefs DL? The Vikings DL has more tackles and sacks. The Vikings are 2nd in the league against the run.

Are you only ignorant, or did you just think no one would question this lie?

6. Why are you being dense about the Tony G. situation? We will not have Tony G. as a TE in 2009. He will retire or demand a trade. We will get less than the third we were offered in the middle of the season. We have no chance of winning this year. Cottam is supposed to be our TE of the future. How does it make sense to keep Tony?

If you don't understand this, you may want to get a CAT scan.

7. Where in this league would Tamba Hali, Page, or Smith start? I noticed you couldn't name a team. Nowhere, that is the answer.

Look, a 1st to 3rd year players doesn't need to play like a Pro Bowler to be legitimate starters. However, after watching a player for two to three years, you are usually able to determine whether that player will turn into a legitimate starter.

After two to three years of watching Page, Hali, and Smith start, I can say definitively that not only are they not Pro Bowl players, they are in the bottom 10% of players at their position in the NFL, and they do not show enough talent that I think they will improve upon that.

When you have a team with a lot of talent, like the Pats or Cowboys, you can draft for depth and bring players along slowly. When you have an average team, like the Eagles or Broncos, you use your early picks to fill needs, and then you draft for depth in the later rounds to bring around slowly. When you have a bad team, like the Chiefs or Lions, you draft people you think can help you now, and you sign FAs to fill in the most pressing gaps.

The Chiefs drafted like a great team instead of a bad one. Which is why they're a worse team than they were last year.

texaschief
10-31-2008, 05:32 PM
Haven't you ever noticed that you are easily considered the least respected member of this board?

Have a look at your 'Rep'. That really tells the story, and I don't think I have ever even given you neg-rep. That has been the rest of the site.



I never even bother with posts from Grbac, as it is just way too far-fetched to be a real opinion.



87.5 for his career. I'm just sayin'.

Peyton Manning currently has a passerr rating of 79 for the season. I'm just sayin'.

And showing that there were great picks that could have been used in place of getting Green and Roaf is futile.

But, if you want to, let's compare every pick that Herm took ahead of Jared Allen and Tom Brady, and say that he is a horrible talent evaluator.

My value for a 1st and a 2nd is gonna be a vague guess at the avreage production from them. Not the best possible pick that could have been made.

Anyway, (DT) Damione Lewis < http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5459/career;_ylt=AmSm0A2kTppTMyLAhOQzGnX.uLYF > is the player that was drafted with the Green-swap pick. And The Chiefs also gained a 5th round pick, which they used to select (HB)Derrick Blaylock. < http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5598/career;_ylt=AmSm0A2kTppTMyLAhOQzGnX.uLYF >

Looking at it like that, I'd say we did exceptionally well with that pick. You?

And the 4th round pick that went for Roaf was used to select (G) Montrae Holland < http://www.nfl.com/players/montraeho...e?id=HOL154433 (http://www.nfl.com/players/montraeholland/profile?id=HOL154433) >

I'd also say that we got the better end of that deal.

Trade compensation sources:
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2002/03...t_willie_roaf/ (http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2002/03/26/chiefs_trade_for_seventime_pro_bowl_t_willie_roaf/)
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2001/04...lmes__wr_horne (http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2001/04/21/kc_acquires_qb_trent_green_5th_round_pick_in_trade _with_rams_also_acquire_rb_holmes__wr_horne)

If you didn't trade a first and second for Green, you'd still have the same needs to fill. So, with that first round pick, the Chiefs could have either traded it for more picks OR draft the next QB. The next QB taken was Drew Brees. So, it not like i was just Cherry picking whoever i wanted.

So, after you draft a QB, the next hole to fill would be LT. That's why we traded for Roaf. If we had kept that 2nd round pick, we would've drafted to fill that LT spot and would've picked the best LT still available.

I'm not saying trading a 4th round pick for Roaf was a horrible decision. I'm saying it didn't help build the team for the future.

Btw, are you aware you compared Green's 87.5 CAREER PASSER RATING (which is actually 86.7) to Peyton Mannings current SEASON passer rating of 79?

Personally, I'd rather have 10 years of Peyton's 94.0 passer rating than 5 years of Green's 86.7.... I'M JUST SAYING.

texaschief
10-31-2008, 07:26 PM
OK, going through these one by one, just to put the final nails in your coffin:

1. Just be a man and admit you were wrong about Bulger. Linehan was fired for benching him.

I was NOT wrong. Linehan knew Bulger was NOT a good QB. His mistake was relying on your beloved Trent Green to bail him out.

2. What are you talking about, with regards to Miami? Pennington is an upgrade over Beck or Lemon (who isn't). He's still not a franchise (or top 15) QB. He'll be only playing for them for 2-3 years. His job is to keep Miami competitive and to tutor Beck. He's not their franchise QB.

I never said he was a franchise QB. I was telling you that QB's ACTUALLY DO make a difference in outcomes of games. You actually think EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM THIS TEAM HAS belongs to the head coach and that not having a QB, is just secondary. It's not. My example to prove this point was the Dolphins. Do you honestly think they'd have a win this year if the QBs they had last season were still leading this team? Those 2 QBs are better than what the Chiefs have had to this point in the season.

You can't expect a team to be consistently competitive if the QB is playing poorly. The three good games the Chiefs have had this season, their average QB rating is 97.16 with only 1 INT. In their five bad games this season, the avg. QB rating is 51.72 with 7 INTs. But, that's all bad play calling, right?



It's fine to prep a player. In fact, everything being equal that would be ideal. It isn't OK to draft a guy in the third round in a position you're glutted in when you have massive holes in the OL.

You DO realize Dunn retired, right? You do realize our running game and offense requires TWO TE's, right? So, could you point out who that other TE would be? What is this "glutton" you're talking about? Is Gonzo, (a single player who's one play away from being done for the year) the "glutton?" I'm confused. Seriously. If we hadn't drafted Cottam in the 3rd, who would be the other TE right now? Personally, I'm just happy they waited till the 3rd where they ACTUALLY HAD a relative glutton of picks to draft a TE.

You might have a point if they had taken a TE in the first or second round. But if you're going to take a player that you're going to rely on for the foreseeable future, he should be taken in the first three rounds. I think they got a steal in the 3rd by drafting Cottam there. He was slatted to be a 1st round pick his junior year until an injury his senior year. That's why he fell. Cottam was a good pick.

3. Your points on Atlanta and Miami are poorly thought out.

Atlanta was not considered a championship caliber team before Vick's incarceration. They were a 3-13 team last year. They turned it around because they got a real coach and GM, got a franchise QB, signed a hard working young RB, and drafted their lines.

wow. they did what? they drafted a guard in the 2nd round in 2006 they drafted an OT in the 5th. Their ONLY "LINE PICK" that year. They drafted an OG in 2007 in the 2nd RD, TE in the 4th and a DT in the 6th as their ONLY "LINE PICKS" and in 2008, they drafted OT Sam Baker in the 1st and DE in the 5th. That's 5 "line picks" of 27 in the past 3 years.

In 2006 they drafted OT Ojinnaka. He has started 7 games in 3 years.

In 2007 they drafted OG Justin Blalock. Started 21 games in 2 years... as a 2nd rounder should.

Also drafted TE Martrez Milner. On the NYG practice squad.

Also drafted DT Trey Lewis. Played 9 games in 2007. Not currently playing.

In 2008 they drafted OT Sam Baker. has played in 5 of 7 games this season.

Also drafted DE Kroy Brieman. Hasn't starter a game this season. But, has 7 tackles in 5 games.

Now, compare that to the Chiefs who have drafted 10 "line picks" over that same time period.

Hali, Taylor, Tyler, McBride, Merritt, Johnston, Richardson, Cottam, Albert and Dorsey are still with the team. So don't give me that, "the Falcons drafted on their lines" bullsh!#. The Chiefs have doubled their efforts on the line AND have had much more success.

You say they got a "real coach." Please define a "real coach," because Mike Smith would NOT be at the top of anyone's list as head coaches they want. In fact, the hiring of Mike Smith was a shock to everyone in the league. Smith has done nothing of note during his career.

But, yes! The did finally get that franchise QB and the team went from awful last year, to division contenders this year. But QBs are just secondary and aren't responsible for win, right?

Mike Smith was an excellent coordinator who has the Falcons overachieving. He looks like he'll be a great head coach. Am I ready to anoint him the next Bill Walsh? No. Would I rather have him (or John Harbaugh) than Herm Edwards? Absolutely.

why

As for the Ravens, their D is good because they have consistently drafted good linemen (Ngata, Suggs, etc.). Their offense is usually their weakest spot, but their OL is keeping their new franchise QB upright. They have a great GM and Harbaugh looks like the real deal at coach. They have rebuilt in exactly the way the chiefs should have - draft lines, sign a good coach, and pick a franchise QB who can stand a NFL hit.

First, Suggs is an OLB. Why does Harbaugh "look like the real deal?" What has he done? Ozzie Newsome is an OK GM. Hell, in the 90's everyone thought Peterson was a "great GM." The Ravens have gone to one Super Bowl and he has yet to build a long-term juggernaut team. Labeling him great is drinking the Kool-aid. But i wouldn't expect anything less from you.

Also, the Ravens have allowed 16 sacks this season. That's only 6 less than the Chiefs have allowed. Again, it would be nice if you actually did some research before you opened your mouth.

3. Chicago built its team through the draft and through FA. Indy built its team mostly through the draft, I'll fully admit. But when you have geniuses like Bill Polian/Tony Dungy drafting, you can do that. Tony Dungy is smart enough to leave his offense in capable hands (they don't play Dungyball). He drafts OL and DL constantly in the first three rounds. Herm and Carl draft TEs, Ss, and RBs in the first three rounds. They don't have the drafting abilities to build through the draft.

And if you think Herm Edwards is a tenth as good as Tony Dungy or Lovie Smith as a coach, you know less than I thought you did. Dungy is the greatest defensive coach of the modern era. Lovie is in the top 5. Herm's defense is as bad a Vermeil's.

Yes. Herm's/Gunther's defenses are bad. Not as bad as Vermeil's, but they're bad. BUT, this is the problem most Chief's fans have. They don't understand that the Chiefs' problems NOW are different than they were with Dick. Dick's problem was he was trying to build a team from FA cast offs who should've been backups. They didn't have talent.

NOW, the Chiefs have talent, but they just don't have experience. They make really bad mistakes that you'd expect from young players. The scheme isn't bad, they're just young players.

4. If I wanted proof of your complete lack of knowledge about football, here it is:

Minnesota? They might have a good offensive line, but their defensive line is statistically worse than the Chiefs... so.... try again.

In what statistical area is the Vikings DL worse than the Chiefs DL? The Vikings DL has more tackles and sacks. The Vikings are 2nd in the league against the run.

Are you only ignorant, or did you just think no one would question this lie?

Minnestoa
Allen -22 tkls
P. Williams-26 tkls
K. Williams-32 tkls
Edwards -20 tkls
100 tackles

KC
Hali -24 tkls 1 sack
Dorsey -19 tkls
Tyler -29 tkls
McBride-28 tkls
100 tackles

The last time i looked at the two lines statistically, the Chiefs were by far the better line. Now they're even. My bad. LMAO... you sure showed me.


....

texaschief
10-31-2008, 07:27 PM
6. Why are you being dense about the Tony G. situation? We will not have Tony G. as a TE in 2009. He will retire or demand a trade. We will get less than the third we were offered in the middle of the season. We have no chance of winning this year. Cottam is supposed to be our TE of the future. How does it make sense to keep Tony?

If you don't understand this, you may want to get a CAT scan.

sigh. I'm the one being dense, huh? Tony can "demand a trade" all he wants. If the team doesn't get what it wants in return, he's stuck. He signed a contract. That was his mistake. Gonzo won't retire this off season if he isn't traded. It's funny watching you running around like chicken little screaming "they sky is falling!!!!" lol

7. Where in this league would Tamba Hali, Page, or Smith start? I noticed you couldn't name a team. Nowhere, that is the answer.

Page would start for the Patriots.
Hali would start for the Texans.
Smith would start for the Jets.

I had been ignoring this question because you're dumb enough to try to argue this and i don't feel talking to a child who's knows nothing about talent evaluation more than is necessary.

Look, a 1st to 3rd year players doesn't need to play like a Pro Bowler to be legitimate starters. However, after watching a player for two to three years, you are usually able to determine whether that player will turn into a legitimate starter.

Are you kidding? You're willing to get rid of a first round pick after 3 years? That's just stupid.

After two to three years of watching Page, Hali, and Smith start, I can say definitively that not only are they not Pro Bowl players, they are in the bottom 10% of players at their position in the NFL, and they do not show enough talent that I think they will improve upon that.

Really? Could you show me some statistics to back this up? Again, you say all this crap without backing it up.

When you have a team with a lot of talent, like the Pats or Cowboys, you can draft for depth and bring players along slowly. When you have an average team, like the Eagles or Broncos, you use your early picks to fill needs, and then you draft for depth in the later rounds to bring around slowly. When you have a bad team, like the Chiefs or Lions, you draft people you think can help you now, and you sign FAs to fill in the most pressing gaps.

Or, you can develop player through the draft. There is more than just one way to get from point A to point B. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be a straight line. If you could show patience, player development is THE BEST way to establish a dominant long-term team. Have you ever thought that maybe the players who are playing right now on this team might actually be the backups later? You act like the Chiefs won't be drafting starters in the future. Some of the guys on this team will be backing up future draft picks. Believe it or not.

The Chiefs drafted like a great team instead of a bad one. Which is why they're a worse team than they were last year.

They're a worse team this year for different reasons. They're a bad team for the RIGHT reason. They're young and talented without a QB. Last year, they were bad because they were OLD and untalented without a QB.

Looks like those nails didn't hold there, hoss. :sign0104:

nigeriannightmare
10-31-2008, 08:14 PM
They're a worse team this year for different reasons. They're a bad team for the RIGHT reason. They're young and talented without a QB. Last year, they were bad because they were OLD and untalented without a QB.

Looks like those nails didn't hold there, hoss. :sign0104:

You forgot to mention our HC, and his wonderful record as one in the league, But hey, he won a couple of playoff games with a team Parcells built and when those contracts ran out, he ran that team into the ground.

texaschief
10-31-2008, 08:21 PM
You forgot to mention our HC, and his wonderful record as one in the league, But hey, he won a couple of playoff games with a team Parcells built and when those contracts ran out, he ran that team into the ground.

If Parcells built that team, like you say he did, then Herm wasn't responsible for his QB's injuries since it wasn't HIS players that let Pennington get hurt. Go back and look at Herm's record when his week 1 starter lasted the entire season. THOSE years are more of an indication of what he can do as a head coach. You can't have it both ways. Either Parcells built that team that went to the playoffs or Herm did. Either Parcells built that O-line or Herm did. You can't give all the credit to Parcells and all the blame to Herm.

That's dumb.

When you look at ANY NFL team, if they lose their week 1 starter, historically, they don't do too well. I can think of only three from recent years that did ok with the backup. Brady's Patriots and Rothlesberger's Steelers and Warner's Rams.

Seriously. Go back and look how many seasons Herm had his starter an entire season.

I know y'all don't want to hear it, but QBs actually DO make a difference.

okikcfan
10-31-2008, 08:29 PM
You know, I'm all for the rebuilding the Chiefs Team, but, did we have to completly clean house and start fresh? Most teams rebuild over a period of two to three years tops. Not us, that's why we are in the shape we are in. It all goes back to Herm and Carl

texaschief
10-31-2008, 08:45 PM
You know, I'm all for the rebuilding the Chiefs Team, but, did we have to completly clean house and start fresh? Most teams rebuild over a period of two to three years tops. Not us, that's why we are in the shape we are in. It all goes back to Herm and Carl

who was cut/left that you wish we still had? the only one i can think of that MIGHT qualify is Mitchell. But for what he just signed for, I'm happy with Thomas.

The only thing we've given up statistically this year is two sacks and a pick. When you compare the two players. Although, Thomas has made four more tackles and is the more athletic players. Not to mention younger by four seasons. If you were to tell me at the beginning of the season that we had the option to develop a player at MLB or sign Mitchell but still get the same production, I'd go with development.

But that just might be me.

Compare Thomas' stats to the best MLB in the game in Urlacher. Urlacher has 41 tackles. no sacks. no picks. no forced fumbles.

We're not exactly missing an average MLB at the very least. Anyone who can be compared to the best MLB in the league half way through the season isn't a bad player.

nigeriannightmare
10-31-2008, 10:17 PM
If Parcells built that team, like you say he did, then Herm wasn't responsible for his QB's injuries since it wasn't HIS players that let Pennington get hurt. Go back and look at Herm's record when his week 1 starter lasted the entire season. THOSE years are more of an indication of what he can do as a head coach. You can't have it both ways. Either Parcells built that team that went to the playoffs or Herm did. Either Parcells built that O-line or Herm did. You can't give all the credit to Parcells and all the blame to Herm.

That's dumb.

When you look at ANY NFL team, if they lose their week 1 starter, historically, they don't do too well. I can think of only three from recent years that did ok with the backup. Brady's Patriots and Rothlesberger's Steelers and Warner's Rams.

Seriously. Go back and look how many seasons Herm had his starter an entire season.

I know y'all don't want to hear it, but QBs actually DO make a difference.


A good coach handles adversity and rallies the team around it. Look at who was coaching those 3 teams (Vermeil, Cowher, Bilichek). According to you the only time Herm can be accountable is when his week 1 starter lasts the entire 16 game season, and you are calling me dumb.

Brodie was Herm's pick. knowing all of the injuries, and still drafts him. I lay that at Herm's feet. We are back to sqaure 1 at the QB position, not to mention all of the other needs this team has.

5-18 over the last 2 seasons, but only if his week 1 starter had lasted. He is a paid professional, handling adversity comes with the territory. The good coaches do it, the band ones say but only if....

texaschief
10-31-2008, 11:17 PM
A good coach handles adversity and rallies the team around it. Look at who was coaching those 3 teams (Vermeil, Cowher, Bilichek). According to you the only time Herm can be accountable is when his week 1 starter lasts the entire 16 game season, and you are calling me dumb.

Brodie was Herm's pick. knowing all of the injuries, and still drafts him. I lay that at Herm's feet. We are back to sqaure 1 at the QB position, not to mention all of the other needs this team has.

5-18 over the last 2 seasons, but only if his week 1 starter had lasted. He is a paid professional, handling adversity comes with the territory. The good coaches do it, the band ones say but only if....

lol. really? so, you're saying the reason Herm is a bad coach is because he didn't have a pro bowl QB behind Pennington and Croyle? Croyle set every passing record at Alabama. Croyle's injuries at Alabama were just like the one Tom Brady had this season. He was rolled up on twice. Coming out of college, Croyle had better numbers and was a much better athlete overall than Tom Brady. He was a better prospect than a lot of QBs over the past 3 years taken in the first 3 rounds of the draft. He wasn't a bad pick.

But, let's just say that Croyle was an AWFUL pick and a horrible decision by Herman Edwards alone. Let's say he WAS too small to be a franchise QB and he IS way too injury prone to be counted on at 6'2, 206. Why was drafting Chad Pennington a poor choice? His measurables are almost identicle to Tom Brady. But he was so good coming out of college, that he was taken 18th overall.

Pennington fractured a bone in his non throwing hand in the preseason on 2003. (But that was Herm's fault). Then, tore his rotator cuff in 2004 (three seasons after he was drafted, but that was Herm's fault too). The Jets GM saw an emerging star at the QB spot prior to this injury and gave him a huge contract. (but that was Herm's fault) He then, came back with his shoulder still injured and led that team to the playoffs. After the season, it was revealed that he still had a MAJOR tear in his shoulder and had it operated on.

Then, came back in 2005 too soon and re-injured the shoulder. Had his second surgery and was done for the year after a couple bad games.

In 2006, He redeemed himself, led the Jets to the playoffs with the team HERMAN EDWARDS BUILT and was labeled the "Comeback Player of the Year."

After a horrible start in 2007, Mangini decided to go ahead and start their QB of the future in Clemens. Now, Pennington is leading a surprising Miami team that won only 1 game last season.

As for Croyle, yeah. It was a bad decision to build your franchise around a guy with a history of knee injuries. I'm not arguing that. I didn't like the pick when they made it. But the fact that they built an entire team and offensive system around him plays HUGE into the success of this team. With him out, the offense doesn't work.

You're seeing Herm's decisions and adjustments right now with Thigpen. They've completely revamped the offense to the college style spread offense that just made Thigpen look better in his second start, than Bret Favre!!! Is that the kind of "overcoming adversity" you were talking about? He's putting a 7th round pick who's in his second year as a pro at the head of an NFL football team and just made him look like he's in the prime of his career and was drafted in the first round, and you don't see coaching adjustments?

Also, i didn't say he's only accountable during seasons where he had his week 1 starter the whole season. I said, those are the seasons where you can actually judge what he can do with a healthy team. That's a fact.

Drunker Hillbilly
11-01-2008, 12:10 AM
If Parcells built that team, like you say he did, then Herm wasn't responsible for his QB's injuries since it wasn't HIS players that let Pennington get hurt. Go back and look at Herm's record when his week 1 starter lasted the entire season. THOSE years are more of an indication of what he can do as a head coach. You can't have it both ways. Either Parcells built that team that went to the playoffs or Herm did. Either Parcells built that O-line or Herm did. You can't give all the credit to Parcells and all the blame to Herm.

That's dumb.

When you look at ANY NFL team, if they lose their week 1 starter, historically, they don't do too well. I can think of only three from recent years that did ok with the backup. Brady's Patriots and Rothlesberger's Steelers and Warner's Rams.

Seriously. Go back and look how many seasons Herm had his starter an entire season.

I know y'all don't want to hear it, but QBs actually DO make a difference.

"You can't give all the credit to Parcells and all the blame to Herm". You said this right?


Who gets the praise for the change in the Dolphins? They are still a bad tam but much better than last season. Bt your logic, it can't be Parcells because he is the new guy.

greg3564
11-01-2008, 12:18 AM
Herm Edwards is a disaster of a head coach. How can anyone defend a guy who's won 44 percent of his games going into his 8th year? And then only 35 percent as a Chiefs head coach going into his 3rd year? It can be blamed on the youth and inexperience, but a good coach finds ways to adapt. The fact that we're now 1-6, and just now Herm is deciding to mix it, up speaks volumes.

jmlamerson
11-01-2008, 01:36 PM
Look texaschief, ***********. Maybe not about everything in your "life," but at least about football.

You think a Minnesota line ranked 2nd against the run and with about a dozen more sacks is worse statistical unit than the Chiefs with their two sacks and ranked 31st against the run. The Vikings have an equal number of tackles because people don't want to run on the MIN DL. They love running on the Chiefs DL.

You thought Marc Bulger was still benched, and when proven wrong, you tried to turn the discussion as to whether Bulger's a good QB. The Rams are 2-1 with Bulger and without Linehan. Bulger has beaten Washington and Dallas (and nearly NE) with his arm. Who do you think was the problem there? Their franchise QB or their lousy coach?

"Glutted" means that there are too many people at the position. No need to thank me for teaching you a new word. It's called an education. The Chiefs drafted a second TE instead of an OL in the third round. As valuable as a 2TE in a two TE-set may be, RT and RG are still just a bit more valuable. The Chiefs could have used Merritt (their 7th round pick) or a cheap FA as their 2nd TE.

You think that Brodie Croyle has a future here in KC as a backup QB, or maybe even a starter. Grow up. He doesn't have a future in the NFL as a ballboy.

You think Page (?!) could start for the Pats, who even in their injury deprived state wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. They want tough players, not those who can't tackle or cover.

You think Hali (?!) could start for the Texans, despite Mario Williams and Anthony Weaver being actually able to defend against the run and rush the passer.

You think that Kolby Smith would start over Thomas Jones and Leon Washington in New York.

Why don't you take a break, watch some football, and actually try to be correct when you post from here on out?

tornadospotter
11-01-2008, 01:42 PM
Look texaschief, you're an idiot. Maybe not about everything in your "life," but at least about football.

You think a Minnesota line ranked 2nd against the run and with about a dozen more sacks is worse statistical unit than the Chiefs with their two sacks and ranked 31st against the run. The Vikings have an equal number of tackles because people don't want to run on the MIN DL. They love running on the Chiefs DL.

You thought Marc Bulger was still benched, and when proven wrong, you tried to turn the discussion as to whether Bulger's a good QB. The Rams are 2-1 with Bulger and without Linehan. Bulger has beaten Washington and Dallas (and nearly NE) with his arm. Who do you think was the problem there? Their franchise QB or their lousy coach?

"Glutted" means that there are too many people at the position. No need to thank me for teaching you a new word. It's called an education. The Chiefs drafted a second TE instead of an OL in the third round. As valuable as a 2TE in a two TE-set may be, RT and RG are still just a bit more valuable. The Chiefs could have used Merritt (their 7th round pick) or a cheap FA as their 2nd TE.

You think that Brodie Croyle has a future here in KC as a backup QB, or maybe even a starter. Grow up. He doesn't have a future in the NFL as a ballboy.

You think Page (?!) could start for the Pats, who even in their injury deprived state wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. They want tough players, not those who can't tackle or cover.

You think Hali (?!) could start for the Texans, despite Mario Williams and Anthony Weaver being actually able to defend against the run and rush the passer.

You think that Kolby Smith would start over Thomas Jones and Leon Washington in New York.

Why don't you take a break, watch some football, and actually try to be correct when you post from here on out?


This is going to be fun thread to read! :11: :yahoo:

nigeriannightmare
11-01-2008, 04:48 PM
lol. really? so, you're saying the reason Herm is a bad coach is because he didn't have a pro bowl QB behind Pennington and Croyle? Croyle set every passing record at Alabama. Croyle's injuries at Alabama were just like the one Tom Brady had this season. He was rolled up on twice. Coming out of college, Croyle had better numbers and was a much better athlete overall than Tom Brady. He was a better prospect than a lot of QBs over the past 3 years taken in the first 3 rounds of the draft. He wasn't a bad pick.

But, let's just say that Croyle was an AWFUL pick and a horrible decision by Herman Edwards alone. Let's say he WAS too small to be a franchise QB and he IS way too injury prone to be counted on at 6'2, 206. Why was drafting Chad Pennington a poor choice? His measurables are almost identicle to Tom Brady. But he was so good coming out of college, that he was taken 18th overall.

Pennington fractured a bone in his non throwing hand in the preseason on 2003. (But that was Herm's fault). Then, tore his rotator cuff in 2004 (three seasons after he was drafted, but that was Herm's fault too). The Jets GM saw an emerging star at the QB spot prior to this injury and gave him a huge contract. (but that was Herm's fault) He then, came back with his shoulder still injured and led that team to the playoffs. After the season, it was revealed that he still had a MAJOR tear in his shoulder and had it operated on.

Then, came back in 2005 too soon and re-injured the shoulder. Had his second surgery and was done for the year after a couple bad games.

In 2006, He redeemed himself, led the Jets to the playoffs with the team HERMAN EDWARDS BUILT and was labeled the "Comeback Player of the Year."

After a horrible start in 2007, Mangini decided to go ahead and start their QB of the future in Clemens. Now, Pennington is leading a surprising Miami team that won only 1 game last season.

As for Croyle, yeah. It was a bad decision to build your franchise around a guy with a history of knee injuries. I'm not arguing that. I didn't like the pick when they made it. But the fact that they built an entire team and offensive system around him plays HUGE into the success of this team. With him out, the offense doesn't work.

You're seeing Herm's decisions and adjustments right now with Thigpen. They've completely revamped the offense to the college style spread offense that just made Thigpen look better in his second start, than Bret Favre!!! Is that the kind of "overcoming adversity" you were talking about? He's putting a 7th round pick who's in his second year as a pro at the head of an NFL football team and just made him look like he's in the prime of his career and was drafted in the first round, and you don't see coaching adjustments?

Also, i didn't say he's only accountable during seasons where he had his week 1 starter the whole season. I said, those are the seasons where you can actually judge what he can do with a healthy team. That's a fact.

Dude you talk circles like Herm does. What team has Herm Edwards built. Oh I almost forgot the Cheifs and they are 5-18 /over the last 2 years. Are you sure you 2 aren't related. It's only taken HErm 6 games to realize he had to make changes, good coaches make in game adjustments, and then week to week. It took him 6 games. We'll see how thigpen does against a stout defese, especially one the defends the pass well. What will be your excuse then?

nigeriannightmare
11-01-2008, 04:54 PM
Texas Chiefs- Is your comparison of Brady to Pennington a real one or a joke. Are you saying that the Chiefs built this team around Croyle? I want what your are smoking. Hey I am gonna throw this out there. Herm Edwards is as good a coach as Bill Walsh expcept for his week 1 starter at the QB position kept getting hurt. You are out of your right mind.

chief31
11-01-2008, 07:50 PM
If you didn't trade a first and second for Green, you'd still have the same needs to fill. So, with that first round pick, the Chiefs could have either traded it for more picks OR draft the next QB. The next QB taken was Drew Brees. So, it not like i was just Cherry picking whoever i wanted.

I won't argue the logic too much. I'll just say that you can't believe that The Chiefs were going to take Brees at #12, when he actually went at #32, do you?

So, after you draft a QB, the next hole to fill would be LT. That's why we traded for Roaf. If we had kept that 2nd round pick, we would've drafted to fill that LT spot and would've picked the best LT still available.

There was no second round pick. The Chiefs gave only that 1st round pick and received Green and a fifth round pick (Blaylock)

I'm not saying trading a 4th round pick for Roaf was a horrible decision. I'm saying it didn't help build the team for the future.

I'd say they got a good value, with a few years of Roaf, over what they were likely to get from that 4th round pick.

I do get your point, but I think that you are over-estimating the value of a 4th round pick.

Btw, are you aware you compared Green's 87.5 CAREER PASSER RATING (which is actually 86.7) It was Bulgers QB Rating, not Greens. to Peyton Mannings current SEASON passer rating of 79?

You picked out Bulgers season QB rating and suggested that made him a poor QB. So I pointed out another QB with an almost identical season QB Rating. It just so happens that that QB was Peyton Manning.

If Bulgers' season Rating makes him a poor QB, then, the same should hold true of anyone else. But you seem unwilling to say that Manning is a bad QB, so I assume that you are stepping back from that suggestion?

Personally, I'd rather have 10 years of Peyton's 94.0 passer rating than 5 years of Green's 86.7.... I'M JUST SAYING.

Again, you missed what I was getting at, with the Bulger/Green confusion.

But with each Peyton Manning that gets drafted, (with the #1 overall pick, I might add) there is a Charlie Frye, J.P. Losman, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Michael Vick, Eli Mannning, Tim Couch, Duante Culpepper, Akili Smith, Cade Mcnown, Phillip Rivers, Ryan Leaf, or Alex Smith.

I know some of those guys are pretty decent, and I didn't include Roethlisberger, or Mcnabb. But Payton Manning and these guys are easily the exception to the rule, when it comes to 1st round QBs.

chief31
11-01-2008, 08:32 PM
If Parcells built that team, like you say he did, then Herm wasn't responsible for his QB's injuries since it wasn't HIS players that let Pennington get hurt.

Actually.....

Go back and look at Herm's record when his week 1 starter lasted the entire season.

That has only happened once in Herms HC career. It was his first season as a head coach. The one where all he really had was Parcells' guys there.:lol:

THOSE years (Ahem...year.)are (is) more of an indication of what he can do as a head coach.

How is the year he got to lead Parcells' team the only one that can be used to evaluate what Herm can do?

Are you sure there isn't another way?

You can't have it both ways. Either Parcells built that team that went to the playoffs or Herm did.

Parcells did.

Either Parcells built that O-line or Herm did.

Parcells did. Herm started removing those guys, without replacing them, immediately after that season. Hence, he has never since been able to get a QB to survive a season. Ryan Young, Kerry Jenkins and David Loverne wnet in that first off-season, and Randy Thomas went the next off-season.

You can't give all the credit to Parcells and all the blame to Herm.

I did. Parcells put the guys here, and herm kicked the guys out. Then he tried to replace them with 5th and 6th rounders.

That's dumb.

That fits there perfectly.

When you look at ANY NFL team, if they lose their week 1 starter, historically, they don't do too well. I can think of only three from recent years that did ok with the backup. Brady's Patriots and Rothlesberger's Steelers and Warner's Rams.

OK?!?!?!?!?!?

You can't be serious. All three of those teams won the Super Bowl by the next season. OK?

Seriously. Go back and look how many seasons Herm had his starter an entire season.

As long as you go back and explain who Herm replaced all of those o-linemen with.

I know y'all don't want to hear it, but QBs actually DO make a difference.

...especially when you protect them.

But I do find it amazing how you spend so much time telling us how much of a pansy Pennington is, (to defend Herms failure to protect him) then turn around and give all the credit for The Dolphins' rise to that same pansy. But then, you wouldn't want to admit that Parcells might know how to build a football team.

What was Parcells' first big personnel decision (Jake Long) with The 'Phins?

chief31
11-01-2008, 08:49 PM
P.S. I love this thread!

spiman
11-09-2008, 01:37 PM
:mob: This thread would be better if the Chiefs would hurry and get fixed..Well there is allways :toast2: To ease tha pain..:11: