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View Full Version : Does Herm know how to evaluate talent, Looking at 2006 draft and FA



Seek
10-20-2008, 02:42 PM
Many people including myself have said that Herm is not a very HC but a great Scout.

Without making excuses or pointing blame at anyone else like DV, lets look at what Herm has done.

Everyone says you can't evaluate a draft effectively until after the first 3 years when the player have developed. So lets look at Herm's evaluation.

1. 20th pick Tamba Hali - Maybe moving him back to the otherside may help his career but he is certainly dissapointing this year. Teams are killing us by running at him and he is getting zero pressure. Based on his performance in year three this is a bust of a pick.

2. 54th pick Bernarnd Pollard - Great special teams player. Like to hit but won't wrap up creating many missed tackles. He is very poor in pass coverage. At this time, I would make him a low end Starter but high end back up. Not a bust, but not a great pick.

3. 85th Brodie Croyle - Hasn't won a game, can't finish a game. Huge Bust.

5. 154 Marcus Maxey - First CB Herm drafted for the team. Didn't even make the team. Huge bust.

6. 186 Tre Stallings. Did see him play to make judgement but since he is not on roster - Huge Bust

6. 190 Jeff Webb. - I don't know yet. The fact that they signed Devard Darling and keep playing him over Webb isn't good. Specially since Darling is horrible. - Bust

7. Jarrad Page - he compliments Pollard in the fact that he can cover, but he is even worse at tackling and can't support the run at all. Not a bust but not oustanding either.

Based on Herms first draft as a Chief. I can't see any argument to support the theory that he is a good at evaluating talent. Add in the horrific Free Agent Signing and I would give Herm a big fat F on the players that he has brought in his first year.

While it is not fair to grade his second year draft yet, there are really only two players that I would want to draft again and that is Bowe and Kolby Smith. Te free agents he signed was still horrific.

Any excuse that this team is in shambles becuase of DV has gone out the window in my opinion. Herm has plenty of fault as stated above.

Satch
10-20-2008, 04:37 PM
Watch out Seek. Telling the truth about this so called head coach will get you roundly booed by the local media. I hear this tripe all the time; Herm's eye for talent. Really? Can anyone tell me ONE single player he has ever been involved with drafting that has gone on to a pro bowl career? The closest he has come is Bowe and that may go south if he ruins this kid or gets him injured like he does QBs and RBs.

My favourite is; "this is all Dick Vermeil's fault. He didn't draft!" Okay, fair enough. But lets look a little deeper into his "bad" draft picks. Jared Allen, Derrick Johnson, Dustin Colquitt. So there are three that turned out pretty well. Now lets see what we got for those supposed bad draft trades. Trent Green, Priest Holmes, T.O. Richardson, Willie Roaf, Casey Wiegman, and the list goes on. LJ? So what? He turned out like many of us predicted. A couple of stellar years, then the league figured him out. And remember, CP bragged that he forced his pick in the draft. Vermeil was roundly criticized for not playing the kid and telling him to get the diaper off. The off the field antics speak for themselves. On the field I feel he won't block, lets his QB get clobbered, and then pouts if he doesn't put up 100+. Contrast that with Priest Holmes who threw himself into people to cover Trent Green. Look, Vermiel had his issues but I am sick and tired of people laying ALL the troubles of the Chefs on his shoulders about draft picks and then excusing the current "eye for talent" about his. Can we add Medlock to your list of busted draft picks by Herm?

See, it happens to all teams. Besides, Herm was going to make us a defensive powerhouse. We now have an ENTIRE defensive line picked by him. Over half the linebacking core by him. Most of the secondary by him. And what do we have? A doormat. Gunny will be next on the list to be purged since he is not smart enough to coordinate a defense. Oh yeah, never mind his championship defenses here in the 90's and then at the Titans. They had killer defenses when he was there. No one ever called him a dunce as a coordinator but just wait, he will be the media's next target. Even though he is being forced to coach this asinine cover two crap defense. And lets look at the inverse. Within two seasons Vermeil put a championship offense on the field. The only shortcoming of the team was defense and if they had literally had just two or three decent players on it this team would have been deep in the playoffs. NO ONE will ever accuse this current coaching staff of even sniffing that sort of success. I guess I just get tired of hearing the blame put on a guy who hasn't been here in three years. Herm has had three full drafts, three full off seasons, twelve pre season games, and now 38 regular season games to make his mark on this team. I think we see the brand clearly; injured players, uninspired coaching, losing records. I don't think this guy could carry Dick Vermeil's jock strap. Let alone coach alongside him.

m0ef0e
10-20-2008, 04:54 PM
Watch out Seek. Telling the truth about this so called head coach will get you roundly booed by the local media. I hear this tripe all the time; Herm's eye for talent. Really? Can anyone tell me ONE single player he has ever been involved with drafting that has gone on to a pro bowl career? The closest he has come is Bowe and that may go south if he ruins this kid or gets him injured like he does QBs and RBs.

My favourite is; "this is all Dick Vermeil's fault. He didn't draft!" Okay, fair enough. But lets look a little deeper into his "bad" draft picks. Jared Allen, Derrick Johnson, Dustin Colquitt. So there are three that turned out pretty well. Now lets see what we got for those supposed bad draft trades. Trent Green, Priest Holmes, T.O. Richardson, Willie Roaf, Casey Wiegman, and the list goes on. LJ? So what? He turned out like many of us predicted. A couple of stellar years, then the league figured him out. And remember, CP bragged that he forced his pick in the draft. Vermeil was roundly criticized for not playing the kid and telling him to get the diaper off. The off the field antics speak for themselves. On the field I feel he won't block, lets his QB get clobbered, and then pouts if he doesn't put up 100+. Contrast that with Priest Holmes who threw himself into people to cover Trent Green. Look, Vermiel had his issues but I am sick and tired of people laying ALL the troubles of the Chefs on his shoulders about draft picks and then excusing the current "eye for talent" about his. Can we add Medlock to your list of busted draft picks by Herm?

See, it happens to all teams. Besides, Herm was going to make us a defensive powerhouse. We now have an ENTIRE defensive line picked by him. Over half the linebacking core by him. Most of the secondary by him. And what do we have? A doormat. Gunny will be next on the list to be purged since he is not smart enough to coordinate a defense. Oh yeah, never mind his championship defenses here in the 90's and then at the Titans. They had killer defenses when he was there. No one ever called him a dunce as a coordinator but just wait, he will be the media's next target. Even though he is being forced to coach this asinine cover two crap defense. And lets look at the inverse. Within two seasons Vermeil put a championship offense on the field. The only shortcoming of the team was defense and if they had literally had just two or three decent players on it this team would have been deep in the playoffs. NO ONE will ever accuse this current coaching staff of even sniffing that sort of success. I guess I just get tired of hearing the blame put on a guy who hasn't been here in three years. Herm has had three full drafts, three full off seasons, twelve pre season games, and now 38 regular season games to make his mark on this team. I think we see the brand clearly; injured players, uninspired coaching, losing records. I don't think this guy could carry Dick Vermeil's jock strap. Let alone coach alongside him.

:sign0098: good post.

Carl is still an idiot for drafting LJ. Vermiel could have gotten us a playoff win.

Seek
10-20-2008, 05:28 PM
That is a great first post. Rep!

Drunker Hillbilly
10-20-2008, 05:59 PM
Watch out Seek. Telling the truth about this so called head coach will get you roundly booed by the local media. I hear this tripe all the time; Herm's eye for talent. Really? Can anyone tell me ONE single player he has ever been involved with drafting that has gone on to a pro bowl career? The closest he has come is Bowe and that may go south if he ruins this kid or gets him injured like he does QBs and RBs.

My favourite is; "this is all Dick Vermeil's fault. He didn't draft!" Okay, fair enough. But lets look a little deeper into his "bad" draft picks. Jared Allen, Derrick Johnson, Dustin Colquitt. So there are three that turned out pretty well. Now lets see what we got for those supposed bad draft trades. Trent Green, Priest Holmes, T.O. Richardson, Willie Roaf, Casey Wiegman, and the list goes on. LJ? So what? He turned out like many of us predicted. A couple of stellar years, then the league figured him out. And remember, CP bragged that he forced his pick in the draft. Vermeil was roundly criticized for not playing the kid and telling him to get the diaper off. The off the field antics speak for themselves. On the field I feel he won't block, lets his QB get clobbered, and then pouts if he doesn't put up 100+. Contrast that with Priest Holmes who threw himself into people to cover Trent Green. Look, Vermiel had his issues but I am sick and tired of people laying ALL the troubles of the Chefs on his shoulders about draft picks and then excusing the current "eye for talent" about his. Can we add Medlock to your list of busted draft picks by Herm?

See, it happens to all teams. Besides, Herm was going to make us a defensive powerhouse. We now have an ENTIRE defensive line picked by him. Over half the linebacking core by him. Most of the secondary by him. And what do we have? A doormat. Gunny will be next on the list to be purged since he is not smart enough to coordinate a defense. Oh yeah, never mind his championship defenses here in the 90's and then at the Titans. They had killer defenses when he was there. No one ever called him a dunce as a coordinator but just wait, he will be the media's next target. Even though he is being forced to coach this asinine cover two crap defense. And lets look at the inverse. Within two seasons Vermeil put a championship offense on the field. The only shortcoming of the team was defense and if they had literally had just two or three decent players on it this team would have been deep in the playoffs. NO ONE will ever accuse this current coaching staff of even sniffing that sort of success. I guess I just get tired of hearing the blame put on a guy who hasn't been here in three years. Herm has had three full drafts, three full off seasons, twelve pre season games, and now 38 regular season games to make his mark on this team. I think we see the brand clearly; injured players, uninspired coaching, losing records. I don't think this guy could carry Dick Vermeil's jock strap. Let alone coach alongside him.
Agree with everything said here. However, as much as it is Herm's fault, it is STILL ultimatley CP's fault for hiring his long time friend, Herm Edwards!!!!! CARL FRICKIN PETERSON is the Chiefs worst nightmare!!!

Three7s
10-21-2008, 02:07 AM
Agree with everything said here. However, as much as it is Herm's fault, it is STILL ultimatley CP's fault for hiring his long time friend, Herm Edwards!!!!! CARL FRICKIN PETERSON is the Chiefs worst nightmare!!!
I've said it for years! Like his father, Clark is too loyal to people!

chief31
10-21-2008, 02:16 AM
Watch out Seek. Telling the truth about this so called head coach will get you roundly booed by the local media. I hear this tripe all the time; Herm's eye for talent. Really? Can anyone tell me ONE single player he has ever been involved with drafting that has gone on to a pro bowl career? The closest he has come is Bowe and that may go south if he ruins this kid or gets him injured like he does QBs and RBs.

My favourite is; "this is all Dick Vermeil's fault. He didn't draft!" Okay, fair enough. But lets look a little deeper into his "bad" draft picks. Jared Allen, Derrick Johnson, Dustin Colquitt. So there are three that turned out pretty well. Now lets see what we got for those supposed bad draft trades. Trent Green, Priest Holmes, T.O. Richardson, Willie Roaf, Casey Wiegman, and the list goes on. LJ? So what? He turned out like many of us predicted. A couple of stellar years, then the league figured him out. And remember, CP bragged that he forced his pick in the draft. Vermeil was roundly criticized for not playing the kid and telling him to get the diaper off. The off the field antics speak for themselves. On the field I feel he won't block, lets his QB get clobbered, and then pouts if he doesn't put up 100+. Contrast that with Priest Holmes who threw himself into people to cover Trent Green. Look, Vermiel had his issues but I am sick and tired of people laying ALL the troubles of the Chefs on his shoulders about draft picks and then excusing the current "eye for talent" about his. Can we add Medlock to your list of busted draft picks by Herm?

See, it happens to all teams. Besides, Herm was going to make us a defensive powerhouse. We now have an ENTIRE defensive line picked by him. Over half the linebacking core by him. Most of the secondary by him. And what do we have? A doormat. Gunny will be next on the list to be purged since he is not smart enough to coordinate a defense. Oh yeah, never mind his championship defenses here in the 90's and then at the Titans. They had killer defenses when he was there. No one ever called him a dunce as a coordinator but just wait, he will be the media's next target. Even though he is being forced to coach this asinine cover two crap defense. And lets look at the inverse. Within two seasons Vermeil put a championship offense on the field. The only shortcoming of the team was defense and if they had literally had just two or three decent players on it this team would have been deep in the playoffs. NO ONE will ever accuse this current coaching staff of even sniffing that sort of success. I guess I just get tired of hearing the blame put on a guy who hasn't been here in three years. Herm has had three full drafts, three full off seasons, twelve pre season games, and now 38 regular season games to make his mark on this team. I think we see the brand clearly; injured players, uninspired coaching, losing records. I don't think this guy could carry Dick Vermeil's jock strap. Let alone coach alongside him.


Hell of a post! Rep added, and welcome to The Crowd!

Darth CarlSatan
10-21-2008, 02:25 AM
See, it happens to all teams. Besides, Herm was going to make us a defensive powerhouse. We now have an ENTIRE defensive line picked by him. Over half the linebacking core by him. Most of the secondary by him. And what do we have? A doormat. Gunny will be next on the list to be purged since he is not smart enough to coordinate a defense. Oh yeah, never mind his championship defenses here in the 90's and then at the Titans. They had killer defenses when he was there. No one ever called him a dunce as a coordinator but just wait, he will be the media's next target. Even though he is being forced to coach this asinine cover two crap defense

Thank-YOU!
I can't STAND the Herm Edwards, Kansas City Turd 2 D!
It's NOT Chiefs Defense, and it's NOT Gun's bread and butter; that s*it gots'ta GO!

And welcome to the Nut House!
:welcome:

Satch
10-21-2008, 08:50 AM
Hey fellas. Thanks for the kind words. You never know when you post on a forum how it will be received. You have a good forum here and the fans have to keep the heat on the management to get anything done. Even at that I don't know if they care what any fan thinks. It may take the entire team imploding to get the attention of the owner. Rock on guys.

jtandcrew
10-21-2008, 10:03 AM
:sign0098: good post.

Carl is still an idiot for drafting LJ. Vermiel could have gotten us a playoff win.


Who was it that Vermiel wanted to go with? I cant remember. I just remember we got LJ cause Carl wanted leverage against Priest

jtandcrew
10-21-2008, 10:09 AM
Hey fellas. Thanks for the kind words. You never know when you post on a forum how it will be received. You have a good forum here and the fans have to keep the heat on the management to get anything done. Even at that I don't know if they care what any fan thinks. It may take the entire team imploding to get the attention of the owner. Rock on guys.

Welcome to the forums! I agree except that the defense would be much better if Herm would let Gunther do what he wants to do! Gunther has proven himself before wherever he has been. I also think that the media will see that Gun's hands are tied to a point and prob hasnt gotten the respect he deserves in the draft room.

Seek
10-21-2008, 10:28 AM
Welcome to the forums! I agree except that the defense would be much better if Herm would let Gunther do what he wants to do! Gunther has proven himself before wherever he has been. I also think that the media will see that Gun's hands are tied to a point and prob hasnt gotten the respect he deserves in the draft room.

Gunther had a good defense when he had great talent.

DT, Neil Smith, Dale Carter, James Hasty, Dan Salameau, Joe Phillips, Tracy Simien, Mark Collins, Jerome Woods, Reggie Tongue.

I knew when we re-hired Gunther he would fail. We just didn't have the talent.

jtandcrew
10-21-2008, 10:30 AM
Gunther had a good defense when he had great talent.

DT, Neil Smith, Dale Carter, James Hasty, Dan Salameau, Joe Phillips, Tracy Simien, Mark Collins, Jerome Woods, Reggie Tongue.

I knew when we re-hired Gunther he would fail. We just didn't have the talent.

As I was saying...when he had the respect to place his own defense and had some respect in the draft room where they actually listened to him

Seek
10-21-2008, 10:34 AM
As I was saying...when he had the respect to place his own defense and had some respect in the draft room where they actually listened to him

I don't think his defense was all that good when he was HC. He was pretty much middle of the pack.

jtandcrew
10-21-2008, 10:48 AM
I don't think his defense was all that good when he was HC. He was pretty much middle of the pack.

I agree with you on that 1, he didnt have the best D. He also had to look at the entire team though. Why cant we get a coach that will let the coordinators coach their side of the ball and mostly stay out of the planning? Marty is a more defensive minded coach but mainly let Gunther have his say. Vermiel is a more offensive minded coach but let Saunders have his say. They both had a voice in the draft room and in the free agency. All im saying is that Gunther is not being able to implement his own defense. Herm told Gunther, here is the defense, this is what we are going to run since this worked for us back in Tampa almost 10 years ago. I just think the HC, DC, OC, SP and GM all have a say, not just the GM and HC.

Grey144
10-21-2008, 12:07 PM
Gunther had a good defense when he had great talent.

DT, Neil Smith, Dale Carter, James Hasty, Dan Salameau, Joe Phillips, Tracy Simien, Mark Collins, Jerome Woods, Reggie Tongue.

I knew when we re-hired Gunther he would fail. We just didn't have the talent.

Ahhh why did you have to list those guys now I am sad at all the talent this team used to have :(. But even though Gunther may be failing right now as DC I do not think it is because of him but rather the lack of talent on the defense.


I agree with you on that 1, he didnt have the best D. He also had to look at the entire team though. Why cant we get a coach that will let the coordinators coach their side of the ball and mostly stay out of the planning? Marty is a more defensive minded coach but mainly let Gunther have his say. Vermiel is a more offensive minded coach but let Saunders have his say. They both had a voice in the draft room and in the free agency. All im saying is that Gunther is not being able to implement his own defense. Herm told Gunther, here is the defense, this is what we are going to run since this worked for us back in Tampa almost 10 years ago. I just think the HC, DC, OC, SP and GM all have a say, not just the GM and HC.

I agree with this for the most part but the HC does have to tell the DC that here is my overall plan for the defense. Make it happen and create your defense around these base fundementals. That is how it should be you cannot have a DC coming in with thier own agenda and just give them free rein they have to flow with the HC's overall plan but you also have to make sure you give the DC the flexibilty to accomplish that and I do not think that is happening.