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josh1971
10-26-2008, 11:32 PM
We keep hearing that as the reason our defense is so leaky against the run.

Could it actually be Gun control?

Anyone else tired of the genius of Gunther Cunningham, and his defenses that never live up to what they're supposed to do?

Maybe it would help us to have a defensive coordinator with some kind of innovation, or creativity, or who actually had some fire in his belly.

Just always seems like we get run over, and the only reaction is "Hmmm... well THAT didn't work"

jb

Darth CarlSatan
10-27-2008, 01:15 AM
We keep hearing that as the reason our defense is so leaky against the run.

Could it actually be Gun control?

Anyone else tired of the genius of Gunther Cunningham, and his defenses that never live up to what they're supposed to do?

Maybe it would help us to have a defensive coordinator with some kind of innovation, or creativity, or who actually had some fire in his belly.

Just always seems like we get run over, and the only reaction is "Hmmm... well THAT didn't work"

jb

Herm instituted the Cover 2. C-2 isn't what gun knows or does best.

The other half of the story is, excuse me for a moment...

"Honey, can you put that broken record on the turntable for me"?
"Thanks"...

The other half of the story is a weak D-Line coupled with Donnie Edwards, Jarred Page, and Pat Surtain.
With a good line draft, and the placement of Williams, Morgan, and Carr on the field; it's roll and go time, big-time.

Sn@keIze
10-27-2008, 08:05 AM
We keep hearing that as the reason our defense is so leaky against the run.

Could it actually be Gun control?

Anyone else tired of the genius of Gunther Cunningham, and his defenses that never live up to what they're supposed to do?

Maybe it would help us to have a defensive coordinator with some kind of innovation, or creativity, or who actually had some fire in his belly.

Just always seems like we get run over, and the only reaction is "Hmmm... well THAT didn't work"

jbI couldnt agree more!

I remember when the 2003 season was over and Greg Robinson resigned. CP said he would fix that by bringing the Gun back in.

I think its fair to say that Gunther has had his shot and needs to be sh!tcanned. As well as Herm.

Hell CP while your @ it..........FIRE YOURSELF!!!!!!!

jtandcrew
10-27-2008, 10:38 AM
I HAVE to disagree! The defensive problems are not Gunther's fault. He was told to design a defense around the cover 2 scheme. As I have stated in a earlier post, Herm needs to let Gunther do what he knows best. The cover 2 is no diffrent when they brought out the run and shoot offense and same as now with the spread offense. I think the defense would be better if Gunther was able to evaluate the defensive talent he has and make a defensive plan that will fit his players. Not make the players fit the defense that Herm wants. Gunther has proven he knows what hes doing with defense with, not only the Chiefs, but wherever hes been.

Darth CarlSatan
10-27-2008, 01:42 PM
I HAVE to disagree! The defensive problems are not Gunther's fault. He was told to design a defense around the cover 2 scheme. As I have stated in a earlier post, Herm needs to let Gunther do what he knows best. The cover 2 is no diffrent when they brought out the run and shoot offense and same as now with the spread offense. I think the defense would be better if Gunther was able to evaluate the defensive talent he has and make a defensive plan that will fit his players. Not make the players fit the defense that Herm wants. Gunther has proven he knows what hes doing with defense with, not only the Chiefs, but wherever hes been.

That's right. As I've said before, we the fans have gotten real comfyStupid about willingly letting proven Chiefs personnel hit the door.
When Herm and his hand-picked "Super Squad" can show me something as dominant as Gun's previous defenses before Edwards got here, THEN we can talk about letting him go if need be.

Seek
10-27-2008, 02:11 PM
I HAVE to disagree! The defensive problems are not Gunther's fault. He was told to design a defense around the cover 2 scheme. As I have stated in a earlier post, Herm needs to let Gunther do what he knows best. The cover 2 is no diffrent when they brought out the run and shoot offense and same as now with the spread offense. I think the defense would be better if Gunther was able to evaluate the defensive talent he has and make a defensive plan that will fit his players. Not make the players fit the defense that Herm wants. Gunther has proven he knows what hes doing with defense with, not only the Chiefs, but wherever hes been.

Gunther has proven that he can handle great talent. He has failed at working with unproven talent and rookies. Same could be said of Mike Solari, Al Saunders and well since Greg Robinson destroyed Syracuse, he just sucked all around.

Sn@keIze
10-27-2008, 08:43 PM
If I recall, when we brought in Gunther while Dick was still coaching, our D still sucked. Herm wasnt even on the team.

Gun needs to go.

texaschief
10-27-2008, 11:32 PM
This thread is a great example of why i don't waste my time posting here as much anymore. all you people who think the Chiefs are running a COVER-2, know absolutely NOTHING about football.

You've heard in the past that Herm Edwards likes that defense and all of a sudden, that's the defense we're running. It's true that the Chiefs have some C-2 elements, but not many. From ALL the games I've watched this season, the Chiefs have lined up and played C-2 MAYBE 2 or 3% of the time.

Before you start running your mouth about crap you know nothing about, please stop and do us all a favor and at the VERY least, do some research first. You people remind me of the liberals and democrats i know that try to have "serious" political conversations. You hear something on TV, not knowing how it ACTUALLY applies, and try to regurgitate it back into a discussion.

I really wouldn't have a problem talking about Gunther Cunningham's deficiencies as a DC if you actually knew what you were talking about. But it's not a conversation worth having with someone who thinks the Chiefs run a Cover-2 defense.

Darth CarlSatan
10-28-2008, 12:23 AM
This thread is a great example of why i don't waste my time posting here as much anymore. all you people who think the Chiefs are running a COVER-2, know absolutely NOTHING about football.

You've heard in the past that Herm Edwards likes that defense and all of a sudden, that's the defense we're running. It's true that the Chiefs have some C-2 elements, but not many. From ALL the games I've watched this season, the Chiefs have lined up and played C-2 MAYBE 2 or 3% of the time.

Before you start running your mouth about crap you know nothing about, please stop and do us all a favor and at the VERY least, do some research first. You people remind me of the liberals and democrats i know that try to have "serious" political conversations. You hear something on TV, not knowing how it ACTUALLY applies, and try to regurgitate it back into a discussion.

I really wouldn't have a problem talking about Gunther Cunningham's deficiencies as a DC if you actually knew what you were talking about. But it's not a conversation worth having with someone who thinks the Chiefs run a Cover-2 defense.

Just for the record, I've always referred to it as the Herm Edwards Kansas City Turd 2.
Except in this thread.

Where I got a little lazy.

My apologies for the confusion.

You see, the Edwards Turd 2 is a magnificent specimen.
Instead of pursuing an outside pass rush, you attempt to send an LB through the middle of a line that would have more luck parting the Red Sea. It's Awesome.
And when attempting to stop the run, you stack three behind the line who in turn, and working together, allow only 3 to 5 yards on a 32-Base.
Outstanding.

And instead of allowing your Corners to use their talent, instead of coming around the outside with your LB's to get in the QB's face and disrupt his timing to increase the odds of a pick by your Corners, put those LB's in pass coverage so you can watch them run 5 to 10 yards BEHIND your Corners, down the field, who DON'T NEED THEIR HELP.

It's Genius.

Sn@keIze
10-28-2008, 01:41 AM
error

Sn@keIze
10-28-2008, 01:48 AM
From ALL the games I've watched this season, the Chiefs have lined up and played C-2 MAYBE 2 or 3% of the time.

. From what Ive seen we do pretty much run a C-2. I rarely see Page, Pollard, (Mcgraw and Morgon)blits or do man to man so another CB can blits.


I've always referred to it as the Herm Edwards Kansas City Turd 2.

You see, the Edwards Turd 2 is a magnificent specimen.
Instead of pursuing an outside pass rush, you attempt to send an LB through the middle of a line that would have more luck parting the Red Sea. It's Awesome.
And when attempting to stop the run, you stack three behind the line who in turn, and working together, allow only 3 to 5 yards on a 32-Base.
Outstanding.

And instead of allowing your Corners to use their talent, instead of coming around the outside with your LB's to get in the QB's face and disrupt his timing to increase the odds of a pick by your Corners, put those LB's in pass coverage so you can watch them run 5 to 10 yards BEHIND your Corners, down the field, who DON'T NEED THEIR HELP.

It's Genius.Im gettin sick of trying to disect your dam post DarthCarl.

We dont speak Jedi/Cleenon whatever.

In English please.

texaschief
10-28-2008, 03:30 AM
From what Ive seen we do pretty much run a C-2. I rarely see Page, Pollard, (Mcgraw and Morgon)blits or do man to man so another CB can blits.



That's your basis on whether or not we run a C-2?

Sn@keIze
10-28-2008, 03:36 AM
That's your basis on whether or not we run a C-2?yep, if your not not playin man to man or blitzin, your playin zone in the 2ndary. 2 safeties. Cover 2. Pollard and Page are the 2 safeties.


http://espn.go.com/ncf/columns/davie/1437187.html

texaschief
10-28-2008, 03:41 AM
yep, if your not not playin man to man or blitzin, your playin zone in the 2ndary. 2 safeties.


http://espn.go.com/ncf/columns/davie/1437187.html

lol. i know what C-2 is, thanks. i'm just surprised you think the Chiefs run that defense as their base defense.

you do WATCH the games... right?

next week, count the number of plays that the Chiefs defense runs that coverage.

Sn@keIze
10-28-2008, 04:49 AM
lol. i know what C-2 is, thanks. i'm just surprised you think the Chiefs run that defense as their base defense.

you do WATCH the games... right?

next week, count the number of plays that the Chiefs defense runs that coverage.
Im not saying they play it every play, because they dont. But it is their base D.

How do you say otherwise when the HC flatout says that it is their base D.

Darth CarlSatan
10-28-2008, 11:42 AM
From what Ive seen we do pretty much run a C-2. I rarely see Page, Pollard, (Mcgraw and Morgon)blits or do man to man so another CB can blits.

Im gettin sick of trying to disect your dam post DarthCarl.

We dont speak Jedi/Cleenon whatever.

In English please.

It's called having a grasp of the English Language. If it's too much work to decipher, just let me know beforehand and I'll go with a more stripped down,
"Hannah Montana" version for ya'. M'kay?
:11::D

josh1971
10-28-2008, 05:43 PM
Well, I didn't quite mean to start such a heated discussion, but ultimately, shouldn't a D-Coordinator who is as supposedly awesome as Gun be able to run any kind of defense?

Our personnel is, admittedly, part of the problem. I have found Glenn Dorsey completely underwhelming, but I bet he'd be a heck of a lot more free to be imposing and dominating if say... Jared Allen was still on one of the ends. We're going to need better personnel in the front 7.

BUT- One of the things that's been missing all year is our ability to get to the QB. Run defense is another thing we're struggling to do, but while the personnel might not be ideal, I'm just saying some of it might be the scheme we're using.

jb

Darth CarlSatan
10-28-2008, 07:07 PM
Well, I didn't quite mean to start such a heated discussion,

When the Chiefs are losing, is there any other kind? Everybody's an Armchair( Insert Position Here ).
No biggie( with me, anyway ).

but ultimately, shouldn't a D-Coordinator who is as supposedly awesome as Gun be able to run any kind of defense?

It's my understanding that at the NFL level, Coords are brought in because of their ability to run a specific kind of defense. That said, if you are a "Super-Coord", you should be able to adjust and adapt to the overall program, and figure out which of your players can do what.

Our personnel is, admittedly, part of the problem. I have found Glenn Dorsey completely underwhelming, but I bet he'd be a heck of a lot more free to be imposing and dominating if say... Jared Allen was still on one of the ends. We're going to need better personnel in the front 7.

Remember how teams used double DT all day because he was such a threat? That's where Glenn finds himself most of the time. A certain colleague of mine and I feel that Hali can contribute, along with Glenn, if you replace the other two. If Thigpen shows he has the skills to get it done the rest of the season, our 2009 trip to New York is going to be( or should be )about building two brick walls on both sides of the football.

BUT- One of the things that's been missing all year is our ability to get to the QB. Run defense is another thing we're struggling to do, but while the personnel might not be ideal, I'm just saying some of it might be the scheme we're using.

My take on this is pretty straightforward; if you're gonna' rush up the middle, your line had better be GOD. And you better have two LB's who can help clear the road in tandem with your line to get your 'Hitman' in the backfield and get the sack. I don't like the odds, or the amount of bodies it takes to get that done.
You can get it done every now and then, but you won't be stacking up Lawrence Taylor or Derrick Thomas numbers doing it.
With the level of game that Carr and Flowers possess, it's time to start attacking from the outside. The problem is; we don't have ONE guy who can do it.
Every time they've tried to line Johnson and Thomas( Defensive Captain??? ) up on the outside, they get beat. Like red headed stepchildren.
And since they keep playing Surtain while keeping Carr on the bench, were not gonna' see anything even close to that scenario until some personnel are replaced or let go.
Personnel wise, it's time for Donnie( old ), and Jarred( erratic and inconsistent ), to hit the bricks.
I still have faith in Bernard, but I want Williams and Morgan( who hit HARD, and are better at stopping the run )back there with him.

jb

Happy-Happy, Joy-Joy

Sn@keIze
10-29-2008, 12:47 AM
Personally, I wouldnt mind seeing more of a 34 D. With Dorsey as DT. Our D-line isnt getting a pash rush anyway so lets just transport the talent to an extra linebacker.

Plus I think it harder for Offenses and QBs to read. Especially when the the Safeties crouch up a bit and the LBs are back a bit. You dont know which LB or DB is gonna blitz the gaps or fall back.

Of course, personnel is a prob. as we'll need more LBs.

Darth CarlSatan
10-29-2008, 01:12 AM
Personally, I wouldnt mind seeing more of a 34 D. With Dorsey as DT. Our D-line isnt getting a pash rush anyway so lets just transport the talent to an extra linebacker.

Plus I think it harder for Offenses and QBs to read. Especially when the the Safeties crouch up a bit and the LBs are back a bit. You dont know which LB or DB is gonna blitz the gaps or fall back.

Of course, personnel is a prob. as we'll need more LBs.

I'd back that. Glenn's pretty quick and fairly slim for his position. Plus, that's kind of his thing mentally; I bet he'd like to get back to wreaking some havoc.

If we could snag just ONE premium LB, who can work the middle and the outside equally well, we could finally stop playing 'Prevent', and get back to doing what we love about KC Defense On Fire:
Stuffing the run behind the line, and sweet, delicious, bone crushing SACKS!
WORD!
:bananen_smilies046:

Bike
10-29-2008, 09:07 AM
Well, I didn't quite mean to start such a heated discussion, but ultimately, shouldn't a D-Coordinator who is as supposedly awesome as Gun be able to run any kind of defense?

Our personnel is, admittedly, part of the problem. I have found Glenn Dorsey completely underwhelming, but I bet he'd be a heck of a lot more free to be imposing and dominating if say... Jared Allen was still on one of the ends. We're going to need better personnel in the front 7.

BUT- One of the things that's been missing all year is our ability to get to the QB. Run defense is another thing we're struggling to do, but while the personnel might not be ideal, I'm just saying some of it might be the scheme we're using.

jb
A defensive coordinater gets paid to stop the other team from scoring. I don't care how he does it. If Gun no longer can do this, put em in a box with Herm and ship em both outta here.

Sn@keIze
10-29-2008, 10:04 AM
A defensive coordinater gets paid to stop the other team from scoring. I don't care how he does it. If Gun no longer can do this, put em in a box with Herm and ship em both outta here.

Nice!

chief31
11-01-2008, 10:06 PM
Well, I didn't quite mean to start such a heated discussion, but ultimately, shouldn't a D-Coordinator who is as supposedly awesome as Gun be able to run any kind of defense?



It really isn't the same as a Billiards pro being able to shoot with any old stick.

It's more like trying to play chess with checkers, in place of Pauns, Rooks, Knights and Bishops.:D

Bike
11-03-2008, 11:31 AM
WORD!

Could someone enlighten me and tell me what this means? I always thought the word "word" was a term for putting letters together to form a coherent meaning of some sort - a task that NeverWrongEver has yet to accomplish.
I'm old and need help on this one. Thanks.:toast2:

Sn@keIze
11-03-2008, 03:31 PM
I think it may have been derived from "Word to your mutha." But that got to long and and people just started sayin "word."

Other than that I got nothing

Bike
11-03-2008, 04:07 PM
I think it may have been derived from "Word to your mutha." But that got to long and and people just started sayin "word."

Other than that I got nothing
Hmm. Thanks for responding. But still don't get it...