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jmlamerson
11-09-2008, 08:03 PM
This is my revised checklist of how to fix the Chiefs, given everything we've seen over the first half of the season. I've incorporated the (regrettable) fact that Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson will probably not be fired.

1. Draft offense, not defense.

Chan Gailey has the offense vastly overachieving. However, they are tiring out, especially on the o-line, in the second half. Our defense is underachieving, and is miserably coached. We need to draft young talent for an improving offense and sign in free agency established talent on a crumbling defense.

Draft, assuming no trades:

RT
QB
RG
C
RB
LG
WR

We need to draft a QB high. We need to sit him behind Thigpen for a year or two. If Thigpen turns out to be a great QB, then we have a wonderful problem of QB competition in 2009-2010. If Thigpen turns out not to be the guy, then we don't have to start from scratch in 2009-2010.

As for the LG, Waters won't play much longer, so draft his replacement now. The RT, RG, and C we draft should start immediately. We'll need a big RB in the later rounds as Charles isn't an every down back, Kolby's an injury risk, and LJ is as good as gone. Whatever WR we get in the last round will probably be better than Darling, Webb, Franklin, or the other WRs we've tried to start.

Let's fix what's fixable (the offense) through the draft. Don't waste those picks on defense.

2. Be very active in FA on defense.

With the exception of Brandon Flowers, there is not a single starting player on the defense that shouldn't be replaced. Carr is probably better served as a slot CB. I'll agree to wait and see on Pollard (SS) and DJ (LOLB). Dorsey is too high priced to do anything by wait and see. The rest need to go or be placed squarely in the backup positions.

Sign the following under-30 free agents:

LDE - Terrell Suggs
1DT - Albert Haynesworth
RDE - Julius Peppers
MLB - Jonathan Vilma
ROLB - Karlos Dansby
1CB - Nnamdi Asomugha
FS - Dawan Landry

We could make all of these the highest paid at their positions, and we'd still be under the cap next year, especially after step 3.

3. Cut people who need to be cut.

Boone, Surtain, Donnie Edwards, Page (who's a FA), MacIntosh, Albai Jones, Darling, Webb, Croyle, Huard (who will probably retire) and others who just haven't worked out need to be let go and chalked up to bad picks.

Which leads me to one guy seemingly left out for step 4.

4. Cut or trade LJ

I've come full circle on this. He's doing us no good either on or off the field. I don't think anyone will trade for his contract, so we'll probably have to cut him.

Blame Herm for running him into the ground.

5. Sign Thigpen and Bradley to extensions

Thigpen's better to tutor our draft pick QB than any free agency QB this year (it's a thin crop).

If he's a good enough QB to start (his second half malaises worry me), then we have a open competition between he and our draft pick in 2009 or 2010. If Thigpen's just a good backup, then we keep him as a backup and use him for gadget plays.

Either way, make sure everyone knows he's going to be a Chief long term.

As for Bradley, he's been a catalyst for this offense. Sign him long term and hope he and Bowe can remain a formidable tandem.

6. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

Same as at the beginning of the season.

7. Fire Gunther

He was a good DC once upon a time. He's a liability now, and he and Herm don't mesh at all.

8. Abandon the Cover 2

We don't have the personnel or coaches for it.

I think if we follow these steps, we finally will be rebuilding, and not just deconstructing.

tornadospotter
11-09-2008, 09:15 PM
Fire hermie, would be the best fix.

jmlamerson
11-09-2008, 09:18 PM
Fire hermie, would be the best fix.

I fully agree, but the gimps in the front office won't make it happen.

A real team would fire Edwards today and promote Gailey for at least the rest of the season.

jap1
11-09-2008, 10:19 PM
This is my revised checklist of how to fix the Chiefs, given everything we've seen over the first half of the season. I've incorporated the (regrettable) fact that Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson will probably not be fired.

1. Draft offense, not defense.

Chan Gailey has the offense vastly overachieving. However, they are tiring out, especially on the o-line, in the second half. Our defense is underachieving, and is miserably coached. We need to draft young talent for an improving offense and sign in free agency established talent on a crumbling defense.

Draft, assuming no trades:

RT
QB
RG
C
RB
LG
WR

We need to draft a QB high. We need to sit him behind Thigpen for a year or two. If Thigpen turns out to be a great QB, then we have a wonderful problem of QB competition in 2009-2010. If Thigpen turns out not to be the guy, then we don't have to start from scratch in 2009-2010.

As for the LG, Waters won't play much longer, so draft his replacement now. The RT, RG, and C we draft should start immediately. We'll need a big RB in the later rounds as Charles isn't an every down back, Kolby's an injury risk, and LJ is as good as gone. Whatever WR we get in the last round will probably be better than Darling, Webb, Franklin, or the other WRs we've tried to start.

Let's fix what's fixable (the offense) through the draft. Don't waste those picks on defense.

2. Be very active in FA on defense.

With the exception of Brandon Flowers, there is not a single starting player on the defense that shouldn't be replaced. Carr is probably better served as a slot CB. I'll agree to wait and see on Pollard (SS) and DJ (LOLB). Dorsey is too high priced to do anything by wait and see. The rest need to go or be placed squarely in the backup positions.

Sign the following under-30 free agents:

LDE - Terrell Suggs
1DT - Albert Haynesworth
RDE - Julius Peppers
MLB - Jonathan Vilma
ROLB - Karlos Dansby
1CB - Nnamdi Asomugha
FS - Dawan Landry

We could make all of these the highest paid at their positions, and we'd still be under the cap next year, especially after step 3.

3. Cut people who need to be cut.

Boone, Surtain, Donnie Edwards, Page (who's a FA), MacIntosh, Albai Jones, Darling, Webb, Croyle, Huard (who will probably retire) and others who just haven't worked out need to be let go and chalked up to bad picks.

Which leads me to one guy seemingly left out for step 4.

4. Cut or trade LJ

I've come full circle on this. He's doing us no good either on or off the field. I don't think anyone will trade for his contract, so we'll probably have to cut him.

Blame Herm for running him into the ground.

5. Sign Thigpen and Bradley to extensions

Thigpen's better to tutor our draft pick QB than any free agency QB this year (it's a thin crop).

If he's a good enough QB to start (his second half malaises worry me), then we have a open competition between he and our draft pick in 2009 or 2010. If Thigpen's just a good backup, then we keep him as a backup and use him for gadget plays.

Either way, make sure everyone knows he's going to be a Chief long term.

As for Bradley, he's been a catalyst for this offense. Sign him long term and hope he and Bowe can remain a formidable tandem.

6. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

Same as at the beginning of the season.

7. Fire Gunther

He was a good DC once upon a time. He's a liability now, and he and Herm don't mesh at all.

8. Abandon the Cover 2

We don't have the personnel or coaches for it.

I think if we follow these steps, we finally will be rebuilding, and not just deconstructing.

I disagree with a few points. Notably that most of those free agents will want to come here. Many play on competitive teams that will likely throw down big bucks (or will put a franchise tag on them) to keep them. I think Carr has some potential to be a good CB.

As far as LJ, I would never cut him (what good is it to the team to cut him). I am anxious to see if he has anything left in him this season. If he does he has some trade value (if he will accept a smaller contract), or we can probably negotiate a smaller contract (the fact that his agent quit is a sign that he probably can be forced into accepting a smaller contract). I am not going to outright disagree, but instead hold my decision for a few weeks.

I agree with the draft selection, except for the fact that it is hard to legitimize a top 10 (or 5) pick for a RT (a good solution I would like to see is to trade back to the middle/late 1st round for like another 3rd rounder or so).

KottkeKU
11-10-2008, 02:07 AM
i think its still too early to tell whether we need to waste a top 3 round pick on a QB...Thigpen is playing as well as Herm can ask from a QB...he loves to run it. So dont expect Herm to think QB is such a pressing need if Thigpen continues to play like this (not turning the ball over, throwing for 200-250 yards and a TD or two)

I still think we should go MLB or OL with our first pick, depending on the player. Pat Thomas and whoever plays opposite of DJ just wont cut it anymore...there are some good lb's coming out that should go high (Maualuga from USC whom i think would be a fantastic Chief and Laurinitis from Ohio St.)...and THEN, once our Defense finally has a leader, we can focus on rebuilding the offense and most notably the "offensive" (because thats what it is) line...i think a high 2nd round pick for a G or RT, he should be able to step in and play from Day 1....And ofcourse it would also be nice to trade LJ for another 1st rounder (possibly a QB, or another lineman) but i dont think anyone will give a 1st rounder for LJ...maybe a 2nd.

If we draft a couple solid OL in the first few rounds, and a MLB that can be a leader on this defense, we could really see this team be pretty good (wow!)....thats assuming Thigpen keeps the turnovers to a minimum and manages the offense...which is a BIG question..

texaschief
11-10-2008, 03:14 AM
Your list was upside down and backwards. I put your list in the order in which each decision should be addressed, then responded thereafter.
5. Sign Thigpen and Bradley to extensions

Thigpen's better to tutor our draft pick QB than any free agency QB this year (it's a thin crop).

If he's a good enough QB to start (his second half malaises worry me), then we have a open competition between he and our draft pick in 2009 or 2010. If Thigpen's just a good backup, then we keep him as a backup and use him for gadget plays.

Either way, make sure everyone knows he's going to be a Chief long term.

As for Bradley, he's been a catalyst for this offense. Sign him long term and hope he and Bowe can remain a formidable tandem.

A decision needs to be made if you're going to sign him to a long term contract. If you offer Thigpen a big, long-term contract, He needs to be your franchise QB. You don't give backups big contract extensions. I might extend him a year or two, but not offer him a big contract. So, I'd let him start next year and see if he's the guy. THEN, I'd take a look at a long-term contract if he's earned it.

Same with Bradley. I really like what he's done thus far, but i might think differently about his long-term future with this team after free agency and the draft. I'd look at his contract during the summer if anything. This particular decision doesn't need to be made this winter and is probably last on this list as far as importance is concerned.

6. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

Neither of these guys are going to retire, but you're right. The front office needs to sit down and discuss their futures.

Same as at the beginning of the season.

5.Cut or trade LJ

I've come full circle on this. He's doing us no good either on or off the field. I don't think anyone will trade for his contract, so we'll probably have to cut him.

Blame Herm for running him into the ground.

Johnson still has trade value and I don't think asking for a 2nd round pick for him would be asking too much. Although, I think he's more valuable to the Chiefs as a player than the return he'd bring back. The problem is, what is his personality doing to the chemistry of team and is it going to be detrimental?

As far as him being "run into the ground," I don't believe that. He's had 3 solid seasons being the load carrier. He still has plenty of game left in him. Just not 3-6 more seasons like we'd all like.

3. Cut people who need to be cut.

Boone, Surtain, Donnie Edwards, Page (who's a FA), MacIntosh, Albai Jones, Darling, Webb, Croyle, Huard (who will probably retire) and others who just haven't worked out need to be let go and chalked up to bad picks.

I'd keep Page and Croyle. They would serve as good backups at the very least. Most of the others are probably too old and the others haven't made an impact yet eventhough they've been given an opportunity this season.

The first round of Free Agency, where all the players you suggest will be is BEFORE the draft.

2. Be very active in FA on defense.

With the exception of Brandon Flowers, there is not a single starting player on the defense that shouldn't be replaced. Carr is probably better served as a slot CB. I'll agree to wait and see on Pollard (SS) and DJ (LOLB). Dorsey is too high priced to do anything by wait and see. The rest need to go or be placed squarely in the backup positions.

Sign the following under-30 free agents:

LDE - Terrell Suggs
wow. Absolutely THE most overrated LB in the league. While he WOULD be an upgrade over Edwards, I think there are WAY better options. The first would be drafting. But, let's say we sign him. Briggs got 6 years, 36 million last year. We'll just give him 4 years, 20 mil.
1DT - Albert Haynesworth
Honestly, you think the Titans will let the best DT in the league go? He'll get franchised. A 25 year old Shawn Rogers signed a 6 year, 42 mil. contract a couple years ago with a 14 mil. bonus. A 27 year old Haynesworth coming off a 2nd Pro Bowl will be asking for more. Let's say, 5 and 50.
RDE - Julius Peppers
will be 29 in January and is past his prime. He's got 7 sacks, 29 tkls and 4 FF. I do think he'd be an upgrade over what we already have. But, I doubt he'd be a player that we could build the defense around for the long-term. But, let's say we get him. Last year, a 28 year old Justin Smith signed a 6 year 45 mil. contract with a 20mil. signing bonus. Better believe Peppers will ask for comparable money. 5 years, 38 mil might do it. But you're gonna have to overpay to get him here, so bank on a little more.
MLB - Jonathan Vilma
First, he's not really a MLB. While he could play in the middle, I'd rather put him outside and agree with the signing. He's young and could be a cornerstone for this franchise. Again, you're looking at Briggs money. 6 years, 42 mil. might do it. Hell, we might get him at a discount since Herm drafted him with the Jets. Chances of the Saints letting him go are extremely remote. For every reason we want him, are exactly the reasons why the Saints won't let him go.
ROLB - Karlos Dansby
See Vilma
1CB - Nnamdi Asomugha
I like Carr as the CB opposite Flowers. But, if we could bring in Asomugha, that would be great. He's going to cost a lot though. Asanti Samuel got 6 and 54. So, lets give him that.
FS - Dawan Landry
I haven't watched the Ravens enough to know much about this guy. But looking over his first 3 years in the league, we could do better. Hell, Page would do better.
We could make all of these the highest paid at their positions, and we'd still be under the cap next year, especially after step 3.

1. Draft offense, not defense.

Chan Gailey has the offense vastly overachieving. However, they are tiring out, especially on the o-line, in the second half. Our defense is underachieving, and is miserably coached. We need to draft young talent for an improving offense and sign in free agency established talent on a crumbling defense.

Draft, assuming no trades:

RT (Should be a WR, OLB or DE) OLB if we can't get a FA.
QB (Should be a WR, RT or OLB)OLB if we can't get a FA.
RG (I could agree with RG here)
C (Pass. We have a center. Best player available)
RB (Best player available)
LG (Best player available)
WR (Best player available)

We need to draft a QB high. We need to sit him behind Thigpen for a year or two. If Thigpen turns out to be a great QB, then we have a wonderful problem of QB competition in 2009-2010. If Thigpen turns out not to be the guy, then we don't have to start from scratch in 2009-2010.

No. I don't want the problem the Cleveland Browns have. As soon as something goes bad, I don't want to hear about how the backup should be playing. The Chiefs need to approach Thigpen as the starter the way they did with Croyle. If he doesn't show promise to be the guy next year, then 2010 is the year we draft a QB high.

As for the LG, Waters won't play much longer, so draft his replacement now. The RT, RG, and C we draft should start immediately. We'll need a big RB in the later rounds as Charles isn't an every down back, Kolby's an injury risk, and LJ is as good as gone. Whatever WR we get in the last round will probably be better than Darling, Webb, Franklin, or the other WRs we've tried to start.

I would love to draft a replacement for Waters this spring, but there are too many holes to fill.

Let's fix what's fixable (the offense) through the draft. Don't waste those picks on defense.


7. Fire Gunther

He was a good DC once upon a time. He's a liability now, and he and Herm don't mesh at all.

Gunther is a great and passionate coach. He's not the problem. The problem is the talent, player experience and not being able to keep starters/players healthy

8. Abandon the Cover 2

We don't have the personnel or coaches for it.

I've never understood a quitter's mentality. Instead of fixing the problem, you'd rather quit playing the best defensive system in the league. Even a lack of talent shouldn't make you abandon a proven system. You fix whatever the problem is.

....

texaschief
11-10-2008, 03:18 AM
Overall, I'd like to keep Thigpen and commit to him as our QB for next season. Don't sign a FA QB. Don't draft a QB. Let him know he's the guy next season and for the foreseeable future if earns the job. If we take a high pick QB, then no matter WHAT Thigpen does from here on, it's never going to be enough to secure the starting spot for this team because that draft pick will be sitting there with his high contract and massive potential.

Again, just look at the Browns. Anderson made the Pro Bowl last season and it wasn't enough to keep his job this year. Doesn't matter that the whole team is awful and isn't playing like it did last year, Anderson still took the blame and now the Browns are losing with Quinn as well. Whoever the QB is, needs to feel secure in his position as the leader of the team and not be put in the position where he's looking over his shoulder after every play. If he can't earn the spot next season, then move in another direction. But, before you commit to Thigpen for next season, you have to watch him the rest of the year and decide if he's the guy you want to move forward with in 2009.

I wouldn't mind spending some money on fringe positions like WR. Bringing in Colston (25) or Henderson (26) from the Saints would be a good investment to be the #2 guy, pushing Bradley to #3. That wouldn't be awful.

There aren't too many offensive linemen in free agency worth signing. Jordan Gross would be nice, but he's a left tackle and i'm not sure if his game would translate well to RT because I haven't watched him much. Marc Colombo is a good guard for the Cowboys, but at 29, he'd be iffy as far as a building block. I think the Chiefs are stuck building the right side through the draft.

On defense, our core group is Dorsey, Tank, Hali, Johnson, Flowers, Pollard and perhaps Carr. That leaves the FS, OLB, DE, MLB and maybe a corner spot to fill. The OLB spot would be best filled with Vilma. The DE spot would be best filled with a high draft choice. The FS spot could be filled in the draft. There really just isn't a FS in Free Agency worth signing whose better than the guy we've got. The MLB spot looked solid at least for the next year with Thomas, but if his injury makes him lose significant time, it may hurt his long-term future here. I'd love to sign Asomugha. I just don't know how possible that is. I think Carr could play well enough to lock down that other CB spot at least for another season.

After we come out of the first phase of personnel moves, a best case scenario has the Chiefs looking like this going into the draft:

Offense:
QB-Thigpen, Croyle, Gray
RB-Johnson, Charles, Smith, Savage, Battle
WR-Bowe, Colston/Henderson, Bradley
TE-Gonzo, Cottam
LT-Albert
LG-Waters
C-Niswanger
RG-OPEN
RT-OPEN

Defense:
MLB-Thomas/OPEN
ROLB-Johnson
LOLB-Vilma
DT-Tank, Dorsey
DE-Hali, OPEN
FS-OPEN
SS-Pollard
CB-Asomugha, Flowers, Carr

So, best case scenario heading into the draft, we're going to need a DE, FS, RT, RG and maybe a MLB. So, knowing that, here's how the draft should go:

1-DE
2-RT/MLB
3-RT/RG
4-RG/FS
Then, the rest of the draft should be best available player or guys you've scouted who you think would be steals.

I honestly don't think the defense is in bad a condition as you think they are. There's no reason to go all "Al Davis" and buy another losing record. Let these players develop.

chief31
11-10-2008, 03:43 AM
I've never understood a quitter's mentality. Instead of fixing the problem, you'd rather quit playing the best defensive system in the league. Even a lack of talent shouldn't make you abandon a proven system. You fix whatever the problem is.

I agree, for the moment, with most of what you said.

But this is not right. It's not really even close. Have a look at Pittsburgh. That's the best defensive system in the NFL, and has been for a very long time.

sup3rdup3r
11-10-2008, 03:48 AM
I agree with texaschief on everything except I would push hard for Asomougha and move Carr to NB(NB are important too!).

Normally I don't like to prioritize a position like CB, as it can easily be disguised by a great d-line, but living in the bay area and watching Raider games every sunday(my GF has season tickets), this guy is as shut down as you will EVER get from a cornerback. He does it while playing man-to-man almost 100% of the snaps. Today I just saw him work steve smith like fiddle(he wasn't covering smith on his only reception). The only pass attempted his way today he intercepted. As far as big money FA go, I would focus on just Asomougha and Haynesworth and nobody else.

texaschief
11-10-2008, 03:50 AM
I agree, for the moment, with most of what you said.

But this is not right. It's not really even close. Have a look at Pittsburgh. That's the best defensive system in the NFL, and has been for a very long time.

Of the top ten defenses, half of them run the cover 2.

Also, http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_532381.html

Tomlin introducing the Cover 2 is what really set that defense off this season. They're playing a lot more this year. That article was from last year. They've been playing some C2 for a while.

texaschief
11-10-2008, 03:52 AM
I agree with texaschief on everything except I would push hard for Asomougha and move Carr to NB(NB are important too!).

Normally I don't like to prioritize a position like CB, as it can easily be disguised by a great d-line, but living in the bay area and watching Raider games every sunday(my GF has season tickets), this guy is as shut down as you will EVER get from a cornerback. He does it while playing man-to-man almost 100% of the snaps. Today I just saw him work steve smith like fiddle(he wasn't covering smith on his only reception). The only pass attempted his way today he intercepted. As far as big money FA go, I would focus on just Asomougha and Haynesworth and nobody else.

I think if the Chiefs are just patient and let Dorsey and Tank develop, they really don't need Haynesworth. Again, the guy made his first Pro Bowl last year in his 7th year in the league. It takes a while for DT's to develop.

chief31
11-10-2008, 03:56 AM
Of the top ten defenses, half of them run the cover 2.

That would make that a top-ten defensive system. Who is always at the top, for over fifteen years now? Pittsburgh.

texaschief
11-10-2008, 03:58 AM
Also, http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_532381.html

Tomlin introducing the Cover 2 is what really set that defense off this season. They're playing a lot more this year. That article was from last year. They've been playing some C2 for a while.

chief31
11-10-2008, 04:07 AM
Also, http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_532381.html

Tomlin introducing the Cover 2 is what really set that defense off this season. They're playing a lot more this year. That article was from last year. They've been playing some C2 for a while.

Funny you should bring this up, as I watched the Steelers today, since The Chiefs were being recorded for me, elsewhere.

Pssst. They didn't like that cover-2. It didn't work so well. They dropped that s*** quick. They still go with the 3-4 that Cowher made so popular there.

texaschief
11-10-2008, 04:11 AM
Funny you should bring this up, as I watched the Steelers today, since The Chiefs were being recorded for me, elsewhere.

Pssst. They didn't like that cover-2. It didn't work so well. They dropped that s*** quick. They still go with the 3-4 that Cowher made so popular there.

Psst. Cowher isn't there anymore and Tomlin is a Dungy C2 guy just like Herm and Lovie. Their defense isn't primarily C2, it's a hybrid 34/43. Trust me. They run the C2.

chief31
11-10-2008, 04:56 AM
Psst. Cowher isn't there anymore and Tomlin is a Dungy C2 guy just like Herm and Lovie. Their defense isn't primarily C2, it's a hybrid 34/43. Trust me. They run the C2.

I can't trust you. Because you give Herm credit for drafting Pennington, and blame Pennington for Herms career of losing, at the same time.

And Herm didn't draft Pennington.

That's the old Cowher/Lebeau 3-4 defense, rather you like it or not.

hardcorechiefsfan
11-10-2008, 08:09 AM
This is my revised checklist of how to fix the Chiefs, given everything we've seen over the first half of the season. I've incorporated the (regrettable) fact that Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson will probably not be fired.

1. Draft offense, not defense.

Chan Gailey has the offense vastly overachieving. However, they are tiring out, especially on the o-line, in the second half. Our defense is underachieving, and is miserably coached. We need to draft young talent for an improving offense and sign in free agency established talent on a crumbling defense.

Draft, assuming no trades:

RT
QB
RG
C
RB
LG
WR

We need to draft a QB high. We need to sit him behind Thigpen for a year or two. If Thigpen turns out to be a great QB, then we have a wonderful problem of QB competition in 2009-2010. If Thigpen turns out not to be the guy, then we don't have to start from scratch in 2009-2010.

As for the LG, Waters won't play much longer, so draft his replacement now. The RT, RG, and C we draft should start immediately. We'll need a big RB in the later rounds as Charles isn't an every down back, Kolby's an injury risk, and LJ is as good as gone. Whatever WR we get in the last round will probably be better than Darling, Webb, Franklin, or the other WRs we've tried to start.

Let's fix what's fixable (the offense) through the draft. Don't waste those picks on defense.

2. Be very active in FA on defense.

With the exception of Brandon Flowers, there is not a single starting player on the defense that shouldn't be replaced. Carr is probably better served as a slot CB. I'll agree to wait and see on Pollard (SS) and DJ (LOLB). Dorsey is too high priced to do anything by wait and see. The rest need to go or be placed squarely in the backup positions.

Sign the following under-30 free agents:

LDE - Terrell Suggs
1DT - Albert Haynesworth
RDE - Julius Peppers
MLB - Jonathan Vilma
ROLB - Karlos Dansby
1CB - Nnamdi Asomugha
FS - Dawan Landry

We could make all of these the highest paid at their positions, and we'd still be under the cap next year, especially after step 3.

3. Cut people who need to be cut.

Boone, Surtain, Donnie Edwards, Page (who's a FA), MacIntosh, Albai Jones, Darling, Webb, Croyle, Huard (who will probably retire) and others who just haven't worked out need to be let go and chalked up to bad picks.

Which leads me to one guy seemingly left out for step 4.

4. Cut or trade LJ

I've come full circle on this. He's doing us no good either on or off the field. I don't think anyone will trade for his contract, so we'll probably have to cut him.

Blame Herm for running him into the ground.

5. Sign Thigpen and Bradley to extensions

Thigpen's better to tutor our draft pick QB than any free agency QB this year (it's a thin crop).

If he's a good enough QB to start (his second half malaises worry me), then we have a open competition between he and our draft pick in 2009 or 2010. If Thigpen's just a good backup, then we keep him as a backup and use him for gadget plays.

Either way, make sure everyone knows he's going to be a Chief long term.

As for Bradley, he's been a catalyst for this offense. Sign him long term and hope he and Bowe can remain a formidable tandem.

6. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

Same as at the beginning of the season.

7. Fire Gunther

He was a good DC once upon a time. He's a liability now, and he and Herm don't mesh at all.

8. Abandon the Cover 2

We don't have the personnel or coaches for it.

I think if we follow these steps, we finally will be rebuilding, and not just deconstructing.
First off, you are right that Carl and Hermie will not be fired because unfortunately the chiefs have shown some improvement and though it is not rightful, Hermie will get the credit. And Carl will be congratulated for his faith in Hermie. I know it all sucks but they will be here another year.

I disagree on Charles, I feel that he has promise but we need a replacement for Kolby.

About a QB pick, remember that Thiggie doesn't have a win. Until he can get a win it would be a toss-up who the starter would be.

I don't quite understand what the Cover 2 is, please explain.

I think that the chiefs have a problem with staying with it after the halftime. They need someone to motivate the team during the halftime - Hermie seems to be putting them to sleep causing them to lose games they should of won.

jmlamerson
11-10-2008, 11:08 AM
Your list was upside down and backwards. I put your list in the order in which each decision should be addressed, then responded thereafter.
5. Sign Thigpen and Bradley to extensions

Thigpen's better to tutor our draft pick QB than any free agency QB this year (it's a thin crop).

If he's a good enough QB to start (his second half malaises worry me), then we have a open competition between he and our draft pick in 2009 or 2010. If Thigpen's just a good backup, then we keep him as a backup and use him for gadget plays.

Either way, make sure everyone knows he's going to be a Chief long term.

As for Bradley, he's been a catalyst for this offense. Sign him long term and hope he and Bowe can remain a formidable tandem.

A decision needs to be made if you're going to sign him to a long term contract. If you offer Thigpen a big, long-term contract, He needs to be your franchise QB. You don't give backups big contract extensions. I might extend him a year or two, but not offer him a big contract. So, I'd let him start next year and see if he's the guy. THEN, I'd take a look at a long-term contract if he's earned it.

Same with Bradley. I really like what he's done thus far, but i might think differently about his long-term future with this team after free agency and the draft. I'd look at his contract during the summer if anything. This particular decision doesn't need to be made this winter and is probably last on this list as far as importance is concerned.

6. Convince Gonzalez and Waters not to retire.

Neither of these guys are going to retire, but you're right. The front office needs to sit down and discuss their futures.

Same as at the beginning of the season.

5.Cut or trade LJ

I've come full circle on this. He's doing us no good either on or off the field. I don't think anyone will trade for his contract, so we'll probably have to cut him.

Blame Herm for running him into the ground.

Johnson still has trade value and I don't think asking for a 2nd round pick for him would be asking too much. Although, I think he's more valuable to the Chiefs as a player than the return he'd bring back. The problem is, what is his personality doing to the chemistry of team and is it going to be detrimental?

As far as him being "run into the ground," I don't believe that. He's had 3 solid seasons being the load carrier. He still has plenty of game left in him. Just not 3-6 more seasons like we'd all like.

3. Cut people who need to be cut.

Boone, Surtain, Donnie Edwards, Page (who's a FA), MacIntosh, Albai Jones, Darling, Webb, Croyle, Huard (who will probably retire) and others who just haven't worked out need to be let go and chalked up to bad picks.

I'd keep Page and Croyle. They would serve as good backups at the very least. Most of the others are probably too old and the others haven't made an impact yet eventhough they've been given an opportunity this season.

The first round of Free Agency, where all the players you suggest will be is BEFORE the draft.

2. Be very active in FA on defense.

With the exception of Brandon Flowers, there is not a single starting player on the defense that shouldn't be replaced. Carr is probably better served as a slot CB. I'll agree to wait and see on Pollard (SS) and DJ (LOLB). Dorsey is too high priced to do anything by wait and see. The rest need to go or be placed squarely in the backup positions.

1. Draft offense, not defense.


Chan Gailey has the offense vastly overachieving. However, they are tiring out, especially on the o-line, in the second half. Our defense is underachieving, and is miserably coached. We need to draft young talent for an improving offense and sign in free agency established talent on a crumbling defense.

Draft, assuming no trades:

RT (Should be a WR, OLB or DE) OLB if we can't get a FA.
QB (Should be a WR, RT or OLB)OLB if we can't get a FA.
RG (I could agree with RG here)
C (Pass. We have a center. Best player available)
RB (Best player available)
LG (Best player available)
WR (Best player available)

We need to draft a QB high. We need to sit him behind Thigpen for a year or two. If Thigpen turns out to be a great QB, then we have a wonderful problem of QB competition in 2009-2010. If Thigpen turns out not to be the guy, then we don't have to start from scratch in 2009-2010.

No. I don't want the problem the Cleveland Browns have. As soon as something goes bad, I don't want to hear about how the backup should be playing. The Chiefs need to approach Thigpen as the starter the way they did with Croyle. If he doesn't show promise to be the guy next year, then 2010 is the year we draft a QB high.

As for the LG, Waters won't play much longer, so draft his replacement now. The RT, RG, and C we draft should start immediately. We'll need a big RB in the later rounds as Charles isn't an every down back, Kolby's an injury risk, and LJ is as good as gone. Whatever WR we get in the last round will probably be better than Darling, Webb, Franklin, or the other WRs we've tried to start.

I would love to draft a replacement for Waters this spring, but there are too many holes to fill.

Let's fix what's fixable (the offense) through the draft. Don't waste those picks on defense.


7. Fire Gunther

He was a good DC once upon a time. He's a liability now, and he and Herm don't mesh at all.

Gunther is a great and passionate coach. He's not the problem. The problem is the talent, player experience and not being able to keep starters/players healthy

8. Abandon the Cover 2

We don't have the personnel or coaches for it.

I've never understood a quitter's mentality. Instead of fixing the problem, you'd rather quit playing the best defensive system in the league. Even a lack of talent shouldn't make you abandon a proven system. You fix whatever the problem is.


1. When I said to give Tihgpen and Bradley long-term extensions, I didn't say we needed to give them big long term extensions. Both players should come decently priced after this season. They won't if we wait until they are FAs.

2. No one is going to trade a 2nd rounder for LJ. He'll be 30-years-old with felony convictions, a big contract, and a history of injuries. We probably can't get a 5th rounder for him given his contract. We're probably going to have to cut him.

Do you really want this guy around impressionable rookies?

3. Why are you so in love with Page? He can't tackle or cover. He's regressing, not progressing over the past couple years.

And Croyle's as good as gone. The team isn't keeping him. Why waste a roster spot on him? He obviously cannot handle the physicality of the NFL game. It's sad, but true.

4. Why would we draft WR in the first three rounds?! We could use a speedy, slot guy (Franklin probably isn't it), but we have more pressing needs than WR right now.

We've blown way too many high picks on the DL over the past three years, and we have nothing to show for it. I don't trust Herm's/CP's DL scouting abilities.

We're never going to get a good team if we keep throwing rookies into every open slot. We need solid FAs on defense. We've given Herm three years to draft his defense. Three years into this project, we don't have a top-25 player at any position. I don't trust his ability to draft defense.

You said above that you want to wait a year before giving Thigpen a contract extension. If he turns out not to be the guy, and we haven't drafted a QB, then we wasted another year. Better to draft a QB high and sit him for a couple years. If nothing else, we would have a real backup if Thigpen got hurt, not Quinn Gray or Ingle Martin.

If we don't draft OL across the board, we'll always be behind. Everyone screamed at Vermeil for not drafting OL to replace his vets. Why would we make the same mistake twice?

5. Chiefs31 answered the Cover 2 argument better than I could. It's a great defense in the right hands. Herm/Gunther are not the right hands.

jmlamerson
11-10-2008, 11:18 AM
First off, you are right that Carl and Hermie will not be fired because unfortunately the chiefs have shown some improvement and though it is not rightful, Hermie will get the credit. And Carl will be congratulated for his faith in Hermie. I know it all sucks but they will be here another year.

I disagree on Charles, I feel that he has promise but we need a replacement for Kolby.

About a QB pick, remember that Thiggie doesn't have a win. Until he can get a win it would be a toss-up who the starter would be.

I don't quite understand what the Cover 2 is, please explain.

I think that the chiefs have a problem with staying with it after the halftime. They need someone to motivate the team during the halftime - Hermie seems to be putting them to sleep causing them to lose games they should of won.

The Cover 2 defense is a defense designed to prevent long gains against a defense by blitzing seldomly, playing mostly zone defense, having your Ss in coverage, and getting pressure on the QB with your front four. TB and the Colts both run a version of the Cover 2.

The benefit of the cover 2 is that, when run properly, it rarely gives up a sizable gain. The weakness is that when your front 4 can't get pressure, a good QB can pick it apart. The reason the Chiefs version of the Cover 2 is failing is because our front 4 are getting very little pressure on the QB, and they are picking apart our secondary.

Charles may become a fine 3rd down back, but he's too small (in frame, not height) to be an every down back in the NFL. He'll blow out various parts of his legs if the Ciefs try to run him 20+ times a game. We need a bigger, short yardage back to make sure this doesn't hapen.

I think the team has rallied behing Thigpen. His second half swoons worry me, though, and I don't know how he'll do if his team doesn't give him a +2 TO advantage. I think if we entrench Thigpen and groom someone behind him, we don't have to worry about the team mutinying, and we don't have to worry about getting a rookie killed.

Over the past three games, the Chiefs have held a sizable lead heading into the half. The Chiefs have a +9 turnover advantage. The Chiefs are 0-3. If that isn't symptomatic of bad coaching, I don't know what is.

balto
11-10-2008, 12:57 PM
I agree with a lot of you that I hope Thiggy is our man, but you have to agree that most of his success is because of the Spread O we have gone too. It gives more time for the QB, opens the field for our WR's and the most important thing is that it helps our Oline and makes it easier.

Yes we look a TON better BUT we still are not fuking winning games :mob:

If we keep with this spread Offense and stay with Thiggy we MUST go D with this draft and off season FA's we MUST!!!!!

I honestly don't see how we could get SO MANY FA's to come here and know way Hunt/CP puts out that much cash for it to happen either. Lets hope we CAN at least get a couple of good FA's

Here is what I think.

If Thiggy does well the rest of the season then we DO NOT draft a QB high this year, I agree with Texaschief in that if we drafted a QB high this would KILL our team and Thiggy!!!! Instead draft a QB like Harrell out of Texas Tech like in rounds 5 or 6.

Harrel is even more of a system QB then Chase from MU, but if we keep thiggy and the spread Harrel would be a steal for a backup/future starter with our O style.

Also, I'm guessing QB's like McCoy, Bradford and a couple other young QB's wont declare this year so IF thiggy does not pan out we will probably be high in the draft yet again so we take say Bradford in 2010, BUT if thiggy does become our man we will have no need for a QB and have Harrel as our backup!!!

This gives us the chance this year to either trade down and get a stud OL (maybe Duke OG from OK) and also get that stud MLB.

OR just take the best OL and either move Alberts to OG or put the new guy at RT (damn that would be a hell of a nice couple of bookends)

OR a crazy but in the long run a GREAT pick would be to take drum roll........ Crabtree!!!!!

Yes I know we need other spots, but if Thiggy is our man and we keep alberts/waters on left side we can get a good RT/OG in 3/4 rounds or FA and get our stud LB with our second pick.

That would give us Bowe and crabtree (maybe Gonzo still)as WR weaps (which the Spread is a PASSING O not a Running O like Herm likes to go with) How good would that be?

Also, if we stay with this style of O I say trade off LJ for maybe a 3rd? If our stars aline a 2nd? So we could have two 2nd rounders.

OR if we all hate Thiggy by years end and want to see him die in a fire we do this. Keep this new style of O and still draft either Crabtree/MLB in first. Then draft Teebow with one of our 2nd rounders.

I know Teebow??? but think about how good Thiggy has done because of his mobility? Teebow is BIG and runs great and he would be Better then thiggy in our O no question.

So draft could look like this. (If thiggy is our guy)

Round 1: Crabtree WR Texas Tech
Round 2: Best MLB/Brandon Spikes ILB Florida
Round 2: Best OT/OG/DE
Round 3: Best OT/OG/DE
Round 4: Best OT/OG/DE
Round 5: Harrell or best QB on board/Best CB
Round 6: Harrell or best QB on board/Best CB
Round 7: Someone we draft then release :yahoo:


OR if Thiggy sucks balls:

Round 1: Crabtree WR texas tech
Round 2: Brandon Spikes ILB/Teebow
Round 2: Brandon Spikes ILB/Teebow
Round 3: Best OT/OG/DE
Round 4: Best OT/OG/DE
Round 5: Best OT/OG/DE
Round 6: Best player on board
Round 7: Bill "the Chin" Cowher

OR we could go OL with our first pick BUT I really think in years to come the chiefs will benefit more from a Crabtree pick over a stud OL!!!! (and if we plan to put that stud OL at RT then its a no brainer)

And I think a top 3 pick is to high to take Rey Maualuga OR James Laurinaitis. We can get Brandon Spikes in the second.

Of course if we get our DE/RT/OG in FA then that would loosen our draft picks a lot. We really have to just wait and see who we pick up during FA.

But damn it would be nice if Thiggy is our man and we get him Crabtree then get Spikes in the 2nd. With say Peppers ANd vilma coming to us that would open up our draft a TON.

One more thing before I look at our Depht I have always been against Huard as our QB BUT I feel he is the guy you played Football or Basketball with in high school that honestly wasn't that great of a player BUT knew EVER play and worked harder then anyone, but just didn't have the ability to be great. If huad does retire I would love to get him as a QB coach or make him our 3rd QB to help the young guys (which we know from statements from Thiggy he rly does try to help)


Offense:
QB: Thigpen, Harrell, Huard
RB: Charles, Smith, Savage, Battle
WR: Bowe, Crabtree, Bradley, Franklin
TE: Gonzo, Cottam
LT: Albert
LG: Waters
C: Niswanger
RG: Draft/FA
RT: Draft/FA

Defense:
MLB: Spikes/Thomas
ROLB: Johnson
LOLB: Vilma
DT: Tank, Dorsey
DE: Peppers/Hali
FS: Draft/FA
SS: Pollard
CB: Flowers, Carr, Draft

Damn that would be SOO much better then this year. What else would put butts in the stands more then the Thiggy/Bowe/Crabtree SHOW?????

:lol: OR hell just pick up T.J. Houshmandzadeh and draft that stud OL you all want.

LOL my brain hurts no with all the great possibilities we could have this Off season we just rly have to wait and see who we get in FA.



It's funny, because we all know that CP is gonna screw up this years FA and Draft picks SOOO bad this year because last years was just too good :mob:

jmlamerson
11-10-2008, 01:16 PM
Offense:
QB: Thigpen, Harrell, Huard
RB: Charles, Smith, Savage, Battle
WR: Bowe, Crabtree, Bradley, Franklin
TE: Gonzo, Cottam
LT: Albert
LG: Waters
C: Niswanger
RG: Draft/FA
RT: Draft/FA

Defense:
MLB: Spikes/Thomas
ROLB: Johnson
LOLB: Vilma
DT: Tank, Dorsey
DE: Peppers/Hali
FS: Draft/FA
SS: Pollard
CB: Flowers, Carr, Draft

Damn that would be SOO much better then this year. What else would put butts in the stands more then the Thiggy/Bowe/Crabtree SHOW?????

:lol: OR hell just pick up T.J. Houshmandzadeh and draft that stud OL you all want.

LOL my brain hurts no with all the great possibilities we could have this Off season we just rly have to wait and see who we get in FA.



It's funny, because we all know that CP is gonna screw up this years FA and Draft picks SOOO bad this year because last years was just too good :mob:


I posted it on another thread, but I don't think Crabtree should be our guy in the 1st. I thnk this draft can set our offense for the next five years. We don't have much longer with Waters, and I'm not Niswanger's, Albai's, or MacIntosh's biggest fan. If we draft a bunch of OL, instead of plugging in more rookies on a defense that badly needs experience, we will actually be building our offense for the future, instead of hoping that our patchwork offense holds together for another year.

IMO, the following should be our team after draft/FA:

Offense:
QB: Thigpen, DRAFT PICK, Grey
RB: Charles, DRAFT PICK, Savage, Smith
WR: Bowe, Bradley, DRAFT PICK, FA
TE: Gonzo, Cottam
LT: Albert
LG: Waters, DRAFT PICK (Waters will only play a season or two more)
C: DRAFT PICK, Niswanger (battle it out in training camp)
RG: DRAFT PICK
RT: DRAFT PICK

This offense will grow together for the next few years. We'll actually be ahead of the curve on at least one side of the ball. As for defense,

Defense:
MLB: Best FA
ROLB: D. Johnson
LOLB: Vilma or Dansby, whichever we can get on the team
1DT: Best FA
2DT: Dorsey
LDE: Peppers
RDE: Suggs
FS: Best FA
SS: Pollard
1CB: Nnamdi Asomugha (overpay him, but get him here - my top FA I'd like on the Chiefs next year)
2CB: Flowers
3CB: Carr

We do not need any more rookies on our defense. I know some Herm-lovers disagree, but I have little faith in almost all of the personnel Herm has drafted for the defense (Carr and Flowers excluded). I don't want him drafting more rookies on defense. We'll (probably) be entering the 4th year of Herm Edwards next season. That's too long for him to keep complaining he hasn't had a chance to put his personnel in there.