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jmlamerson
11-16-2008, 08:09 PM
Given the Chiefs current predicament, I was given to wonder if we would be an improved team if we drafted better. Below is my redo of the Chiefs draft. I have taken into account all trades. I have assumed that all players we originally drafted would be there no matter my changes.

Round 1, pick 5 - Ryan Clady, LT (originally Glenn Dorsey, DT)
Rd 1, pk 15 - Brendan Albert, RG (same)
Rd 2, pk 4 - Brandan Flowers, CB (same)
Rd 3, pk 10 - Jeremy Zuttah, RT (originally Jamaal Charles, RB)
Rd 3, pk 13 - Mario Manningham, WR (originally Brad Cottam, TE)
Rd 3, pk 19 - Steve Slaton, RB (originally DuJuan Morgan, S)
Rd 4, pk 6 - Cody Wallace, C (originally Will Franklin, WR)
Rd 5, pk 5 - Brandon Carr, CB (same)
Rd 6, pk 4 - Geno Hayes, LB (originally Barry Richardson, RT)
Rd 6, pk 16 - Colt Brennan, QB (originally Kevin Robinson, WR)
Rd 7, pk 3 - Brian Johnston, DE (same)
Rd 7, pk 32 - Chis Horton, S (originally Mike Merritt, FB)

What do you think? Yes, there's a lot of armchair redoing, but they're the picks I wanted for the first three rounds at least at the time. For the rest, I went with what were obviously our needs that were not addressed in the draft. I didn't like Johnston still, but I won't pretend I knew of better DEs that low.

jerhart
11-16-2008, 08:15 PM
...whats the point of this? The draft is over? The question is who would you draft in the next draft?

jmlamerson
11-16-2008, 08:20 PM
...whats the point of this? The draft is over? The question is who would you draft in the next draft?

The point of it was just for fun. Also so people will stop saying that we had a great 2008 draft and I should respect Herm's drafting skills.

For the next draft, I would go: RT, QB, RG, C, RB, LG, WR - in that order (you can flip RG/QB if necessary). I don't trust our current brain trust with defensive picks, and we could use all of those players to keep our offense in the right direction.

We have as much youth as a team needs on defense. We need to let them grow, cut them, or sign vets. Not to add more youth.

jerhart
11-16-2008, 08:22 PM
Who are you looking at for RB out of curiousity...

jmlamerson
11-16-2008, 08:29 PM
Who are you looking at for RB out of curiousity...

I don't think we should draft a RB before the 5th, so the following 2 RBs are two I think will be available when we draft in the 5th.

Part of me wants Marcus Thigpen (Indiana), just so we can load up on Thigpens. He'd also be a great kick returner for us.

For a big back, I like Marlon Lucky (Nebraska). He'll be there in the 6th-7th.

slc chief
11-16-2008, 08:30 PM
The point of it was just for fun. Also so people will stop saying that we had a great 2008 draft and I should respect Herm's drafting skills.

For the next draft, I would go: RT, QB, RG, C, RB, LG, WR - in that order (you can flip RG/QB if necessary). I don't trust our current brain trust with defensive picks, and we could use all of those players to keep our offense in the right direction.

We have as much youth as a team needs on defense. We need to let them grow, cut them, or sign vets. Not to add more youth.

you can not say he did not have a good draft this year give these players some time and some of the players he did pick up are producing carr,flowers,albert,and cottam he is a good blocking tight end

jmlamerson
11-16-2008, 08:34 PM
you can not say he did not have a good draft this year give these players some time and some of the players he did pick up are producing carr,flowers,albert,and cottam he is a good blocking tight end

And you notice I kept Flowers, Carr, and Albert. Cottam isn't a bad player - he's just a luxury pick that we could have spend on a position of need.

My point, more than anything, is that we drafted players for positions we didn't need, or players that haven't produced. That we'd been a lot better off drafting our offensive line than pouring our picks into the defense. That our priorities are all screwed up. That we can learn from this history.

Also, it's just fun to play what-if.

Three7s
11-16-2008, 08:55 PM
And you notice I kept Flowers, Carr, and Albert. Cottam isn't a bad player - he's just a luxury pick that we could have spend on a position of need.

My point, more than anything, is that we drafted players for positions we didn't need, or players that haven't produced. That we'd been a lot better off drafting our offensive line than pouring our picks into the defense. That our priorities are all screwed up. That we can learn from this history.

Also, it's just fun to play what-if.
Cottam is a position of need. TG could retire at any time, and we had no one to take his place. A TE had to be drafted.

jmlamerson
11-16-2008, 09:09 PM
Cottam is a position of need. TG could retire at any time, and we had no one to take his place. A TE had to be drafted.

We have an all star we won't trade at the TE position for at least 2008. Grooming a TE would be a nice luxury, but a we needed a starting LB, RG, or RT in a much worse way than a TE.

I mean, if Tony G. retires, that's sad and I'll miss him. But TE is pretty low on the hierarchy of need positions.

TRB05
11-16-2008, 09:16 PM
How about some LBs?

I forgot Slaton went so late, but then again, there always seems to be quality RBs in the 3rd-5th rounds.

slc chief
11-16-2008, 09:20 PM
We have an all star we won't trade at the TE position for at least 2008. Grooming a TE would be a nice luxury, but a we needed a starting LB, RG, or RT in a much worse way than a TE.

I mean, if Tony G. retires, that's sad and I'll miss him. But TE is pretty low on the hierarchy of need positions.

agreed let him learn from tony for a year or two and i think he will be an above average te also keep an eye on robinson that we drafted out of utah st if given the chance he will return some kicks he tore it up in college he has the potential to bring back the dante hall type returns

jmlamerson
11-16-2008, 09:28 PM
How about some LBs?

I forgot Slaton went so late, but then again, there always seems to be quality RBs in the 3rd-5th rounds.

Well, I have one there, Geno Hayes in the 6th.

My problem with drafting defense, either in my redo or next draft, is that I don't think it will help much. That until we get a new HC, defensive scheme, and DC, we're pretty much just tossing those picks away. That's why, except for Flowers, I only started drafting defense in the 5th.

About Slaton, as much as I think Charles may turn out to be a good 3rd down back, even at the time he was drafted, no one thought he'd be an every down back. It seemed to be a waste to pick up a 3rd down back when we have so many other needs. Slaton was projected as a sleeper in every mock draft I saw, and everyone knew he was a more every down sort of back.

TRB05
11-16-2008, 09:30 PM
Well, I have one there, Geno Hayes in the 6th.



Oops...missed that.

jmlamerson
11-16-2008, 09:40 PM
Oops...missed that.

No biggie. If we had drafted like this, we'd have right now as our starters (assuming health):

QB: Tyler Thigpen
FB: Mike Cox
RB: Steve Slaton
WR1: Bowe
WR2: Bradley
WR3: Manningham
TE: Tony G.
LT: Clady
LG: Waters
C: Cody Wallace/Niswanger
RG: Albert
RT: Zuttah

LDE: McBride
RDE: Hali
1DT: Edwards
2DT: Tank
LOLB: DJ
MLB: Pat Thomas
ROLB: Geno Hayes
1CB: Flowers
2CB: Carr
SS: Pollard
FS: Horton

Is our offense much better? Yes. Is our defense much better? No, but it isn't worse either.

What this means to me - draft offense this upcoming year. Fix what's fixable in the early rounds.

chief31
11-17-2008, 10:27 AM
Given the Chiefs current predicament, I was given to wonder if we would be an improved team if we drafted better. Below is my redo of the Chiefs draft. I have taken into account all trades. I have assumed that all players we originally drafted would be there no matter my changes.

Round 1, pick 5 - Ryan Clady, LT (originally Glenn Dorsey, DT)
Rd 1, pk 15 - Brendan Albert, RG (same)
Rd 2, pk 4 - Brandan Flowers, CB (same)
Rd 3, pk 10 - Jeremy Zuttah, RT (originally Jamaal Charles, RB)
Rd 3, pk 13 - Mario Manningham, WR (originally Brad Cottam, TE)
Rd 3, pk 19 - Steve Slaton, RB (originally DuJuan Morgan, S)
Rd 4, pk 6 - Cody Wallace, C (originally Will Franklin, WR)
Rd 5, pk 5 - Brandon Carr, CB (same)
Rd 6, pk 4 - Geno Hayes, LB (originally Barry Richardson, RT)
Rd 6, pk 16 - Colt Brennan, QB (originally Kevin Robinson, WR)
Rd 7, pk 3 - Brian Johnston, DE (same)
Rd 7, pk 32 - Chis Horton, S (originally Mike Merritt, FB)

What do you think? Yes, there's a lot of armchair redoing, but they're the picks I wanted for the first three rounds at least at the time. For the rest, I went with what were obviously our needs that were not addressed in the draft. I didn't like Johnston still, but I won't pretend I knew of better DEs that low.

Round 1, pick 5 - Ryan Clady, LT (originally Glenn Dorsey, DT)
Rd 2, pk 4 - Brandan Flowers, CB (same)
Rd 3, pk 10 - Jeremy Zuttah, RT (originally Jamaal Charles, RB)
Rd 4, pk 6 - Cody Wallace, C (originally Will Franklin, WR)
Rd 5, pk 5 - Brandon Carr, CB (same)

That's as far as I need to go.

Oh, and the missing picks? There is no way possible that I trade away Jared Allen.

So my starting line-up looks like this...


OFFENSE


QB, Brodie Croyle (He would look a whole lot better if we hadn't made the commitment to end his career.)

HB, LJ (Only because I am not going to go back another year to do this.)

FB, Boomer Grigsby (He was doing just fine.)

WR #1, D-Bowe

WR #2, Dante Hall

TE, Gonzo

LT, Ryan Clady

RT, Zuttah/McIntosh

LG, Brian Waters

RG, Alan Faneca (Plenty of money to spend. So I am spending some.)

C, Niswanger/Wallace



DEFENSE

DT, Tank Tyler

DT, Alphonso Boone

RDE, Jared Allen

LDE, Tamba Hali (It was working for Tamba, when JA was on the other side.)

LOLB, Derrick Johnson

MLB, Napoleon Harris (Though I prefer to still have Kawika Mitchell, the guy played just fine.)

ROLB, Donnie Edwards (He'd do for another season, while I place OLB on my '09 to-do list.)

CB, Patrick Surtain

CB, Flowers

FS, Page

SS, Pollard


SPECIAL TEAMS


K, Lawrence Tynes

P, Dustin Colquitt

But Herm has still left me with plenty of work to do in '09.

But, let me go back just one more season, and IT'S ON!!!

Not enough time right now. I can't even remember all of the FAs that were available.

jerhart
11-17-2008, 10:43 AM
QB, Brodie Croyle (He would look a whole lot better if we hadn't made the commitment to end his career.)



[/LEFT]


I never ever want to see Brodie under center again...no matter what you say...I will respond with..."he is too fragile"

...I dont care if our O-line sucks...the Thig has been able to make it thru the past few games without gettin hurt. Yes we are running the spread...but still...Brodie showed nothing promising for the future when he was under center.

balto
11-17-2008, 11:18 AM
Ya thsi is FUN but there is NO WAY I mean NO WAY in hell that if we would of took Clady with our first pick teh Broncos would not of taken Albert (are you kidding me)

If we woudl of took Clady Albert would be picked up by teh Broncos at 12 (where Clady was taken). Then who would we of drafted?

Another LT? at 15 NOW WAY!!!! you do not draft a RT with your 15th pick thats stupid!!!! I can see drafting Albert for GUARD, but teh other top LT's on the board at 15 are NOT guards and would be a RT since we took Clady with our first pick.

I agree I like to do What if drafts and mock drafts for the future, but please make some sense, after the screw up with our second pick with your draft teh rest of teh draft would be different if Alberts wasn't on teh board AND HE WOULD NOT BE.

So you tell me,

Dorsey/Albert

or

Clady/RT

Dorsey is looking better and better and will be a beast once he gets soem reps and a Crazy new DE.

NOW since this is a What if knowing what we know now draft. I might be up for taking Flacco/Brohm/Matt Forte

Liek I said I don't be to be a dick, but you have to relize Albert coudl of gone higher then he did AND no way he gets past Denver if we draft Clady first.

jmlamerson
11-17-2008, 11:30 AM
Ya thsi is FUN but there is NO WAY I mean NO WAY in hell that if we would of took Clady with our first pick teh Broncos would not of taken Albert (are you kidding me)

If we woudl of took Clady Albert would be picked up by teh Broncos at 12 (where Clady was taken). Then who would we of drafted?

Another LT? at 15 NOW WAY!!!! you do not draft a RT with your 15th pick thats stupid!!!! I can see drafting Albert for GUARD, but teh other top LT's on the board at 15 are NOT guards and would be a RT since we took Clady with our first pick.

I agree I like to do What if drafts and mock drafts for the future, but please make some sense, after the screw up with our second pick with your draft teh rest of teh draft would be different if Alberts wasn't on teh board AND HE WOULD NOT BE.

So you tell me,

Dorsey/Albert

or

Clady/RT

Dorsey is looking better and better and will be a beast once he gets soem reps and a Crazy new DE.

NOW since this is a What if knowing what we know now draft. I might be up for taking Flacco/Brohm/Matt Forte

Liek I said I don't be to be a dick, but you have to relize Albert coudl of gone higher then he did AND no way he gets past Denver if we draft Clady first.

And I don't mean to be a dick, but I can't understand a word you wrote. Try putting your words in the correct order.

I think you're saying that the Broncos would have taken Albert at 12, and we couldn't have gotten him at 15. Yoiu forget that our not taking Dorsey screws up the picks after us. Assuming Davis takes McFadden still, the Saints prbably take Dorsey. That leaves Ellis freefalling to 12. Are you telling me the Broncos aren't taking Ellis or Mayo (if the Pats take Ellis) over Albert?

Our team valued Albert much higher than anyone else in the NFL, to the extent that we'd probably have taken him at 5 if not for the JA trade, assuming no one would have traded down with us.

Anyway, you can't possibly know what would would happen. That's why I assumed everyone would still be there.

And yes, I'd rather have bookend tackles than Dorsey, who's the next Ryan Sims. I'm sure he'll be successful on the next team he goes to.

balto
11-17-2008, 11:56 AM
Ya sorry about the last post (was in a hurry to get to a meeting)

I have to disagree about Denver taking ANYONE over teh best LT on the board.

In 2007 Denver drafted TWO DE's with there 1st and 2nd round picks, no way they go that way again. They also took a DT in the 4th.

Also if you look at what Denver took with 2008's draft you will see what I mean.

1st round= LT
2nd round= WR
3rd round= had no picks
4th round= C
4th round= CB
5th round= RB
5th round= DT
6th round= LB
7th round= S
7th round= FB

I remember looking at mocks last year and everyone knew that Denver was going to take a LT no matter what, and Albert would of been the best on the board

balto
11-17-2008, 12:09 PM
OR lets say Denver takes Chris Williams(drafted at 14th by the Bears). Who do you think the Bears would of taken?????????? Correct Alberts!!!!!!!!!!!

jmlamerson
11-17-2008, 12:40 PM
OR lets say Denver takes Chris Williams(drafted at 14th by the Bears). Who do you think the Bears would of taken?????????? Correct Alberts!!!!!!!!!!!

Very, very few teams believed that Albert could be moved from RG to LT. I still don't believe it. Neither the Bears not the Broncos are going to draft a RG that high. They'll draft other positions, they'd draft Otah, but we're getting Albert at 15.

And frankly, if it comes down to it, I'll take Clady at 5, Otah at 15, and keep the rest of my re-draft the same (Zuttah would play RG). If we get Cody in the 4th, we have our OL for the next ten years, rather than Dorsey. Sounds good to me.

balto
11-17-2008, 01:36 PM
I agree that would be GREAT

I'm all for drafting the best OL this year, but just because we want two TOP tackles doesn't mean the chiefs would of took a RT at 15 is what I'm saying.

Just like you said "Neither the Bears not the Broncos are going to draft a RG that high"

There is a 0% chance that we would of took a RT at 15th overall, I mean ZERO!!!!!

I guess we could of taken Chilo Rachal (drafted 39th by 49ners), but I don't think he was worth the 15th overall pick do you?

The more realistic pick would of been

1st(5th): Clady
2nd(17): Aqib Talib CB (Top Rookie CB, drafted 20th)
3rd(35): Chilo Rachal G (2nd top G, drafted 39th)

I just hate seeing us draft a RT with our 15th overall pick and really do not see how the chiefs would of went that way. Also, no way Brandon Albert makes it past Denver AND the Bears sorry.

ALSO, since we would not have to trade up 2 spots to pick alberts that would not be there we keep our 5th round pick and do not switch 3's with the Lions.

So that adds in an extra draft pick (5th round) and we would have the 66th pick instead of the 76th pick.

So you tell me.

Clady/Otah(RT)/Flowers

OR

Clady/Talib/Rachal AND 66th instead of 76th AND 5th round pick

Talib > Flowers
Rachal > Otah at Guard (cause we woldl never draft a RT at 15th let alone trade UP to get him LOL)

Honestly I like the way we drafted!!!

Dorsey/Albert/Flowers

rbedgood
11-17-2008, 01:38 PM
If we are re-doing the last draft can the 49ers have Joey Flacco? Please! ...and yes I was begging for him on draft day, but alas the idiots in our war room though JT O'Sullivan or Shaun Hill would be the answer. LOL

jmlamerson
11-17-2008, 01:46 PM
If we are re-doing the last draft can the 49ers have Joey Flacco? Please! ...and yes I was begging for him on draft day, but alas the idiots in our war room though JT O'Sullivan or Shaun Hill would be the answer. LOL

If it makes you feel better, I'd bet pretty heavily on Matt Cassel being the 49ers franchise QB starting next year. And Josh McDaniels (OC for the Pats) being the head coach.

jmlamerson
11-17-2008, 01:55 PM
I agree that would be GREAT

I'm all for drafting the best OL this year, but just because we want two TOP tackles doesn't mean the chiefs would of took a RT at 15 is what I'm saying.

Just like you said "Neither the Bears not the Broncos are going to draft a RG that high"

There is a 0% chance that we would of took a RT at 15th overall, I mean ZERO!!!!!

I guess we could of taken Chilo Rachal (drafted 39th by 49ners), but I don't think he was worth the 15th overall pick do you?

The more realistic pick would of been

1st(5th): Clady
2nd(17): Aqib Talib CB (Top Rookie CB, drafted 20th)
3rd(35): Chilo Rachal G (2nd top G, drafted 39th)

I just hate seeing us draft a RT with our 15th overall pick and really do not see how the chiefs would of went that way. Also, no way Brandon Albert makes it past Denver AND the Bears sorry.

ALSO, since we would not have to trade up 2 spots to pick alberts that would not be there we keep our 5th round pick and do not switch 3's with the Lions.

So that adds in an extra draft pick (5th round) and we would have the 66th pick instead of the 76th pick.

So you tell me.

Clady/Otah(RT)/Flowers

OR

Clady/Talib/Rachal AND 66th instead of 76th AND 5th round pick

Talib > Flowers
Rachal > Otah at Guard (cause we woldl never draft a RT at 15th let alone trade UP to get him LOL)

Honestly I like the way we drafted!!!

Dorsey/Albert/Flowers

What are you talking about? 15th isn't too early to draft a RT. Good teams do it all the time. It's more reasonable to draft a RT at 15 than a DT at 5, anyway.

Just because we wouldn't do it doesn't mean it wasn't the smart thing to do.

balto
11-17-2008, 03:07 PM
who/when was a Tackle drafted in the top 15 to be a RT?

Also,

Now that I think about it. (since Albert would be gone AND no RT is worth the top 15th)

Maybe we should of drafted

Derrick Harvey DE (Drafted 8th)

OR

Vernon Gholston LB (Drafted 6th)

THEN the best LT on the board. Hell with us taking a DE or LB we would of had a better chance of still getting Albert.

So lets say if we get lucky and get albert again.

Harvey/Albert/Flowers

BUT dammit I still like our pick

Dorsey/albert/Flowers

I say we did GREAT with our first 3 picks and could not of improved on that.

BUT "maybe" do our 3rd rounders different.

(73): Charles
(76): Cottman
(82): Morgan

We should of done this.

The same with Charles/Cottman, but took Jeremy Zuttah G at (82) instead of Morgan.

That would of given us Alberts and Zuttah for our line.

jmlamerson
11-17-2008, 05:05 PM
who/when was a Tackle drafted in the top 15 to be a RT?

Also,

Now that I think about it. (since Albert would be gone AND no RT is worth the top 15th)

Maybe we should of drafted

Derrick Harvey DE (Drafted 8th)

OR

Vernon Gholston LB (Drafted 6th)

THEN the best LT on the board. Hell with us taking a DE or LB we would of had a better chance of still getting Albert.

So lets say if we get lucky and get albert again.

Harvey/Albert/Flowers

BUT dammit I still like our pick

Dorsey/albert/Flowers

I say we did GREAT with our first 3 picks and could not of improved on that.

BUT "maybe" do our 3rd rounders different.

(73): Charles
(76): Cottman
(82): Morgan

We should of done this.

The same with Charles/Cottman, but took Jeremy Zuttah G at (82) instead of Morgan.

That would of given us Alberts and Zuttah for our line.

Why do you think RT is not a top-15 position? Look at Levi Brown. He was the 5th pick in 2007, and the Cardinals have turned their offense around in part because they rebuilt their line with him as a cornerstone. Would Otah have been a reach at 15 (as opposed to 19, where he went)?

I could much more easily say that DT is not a top-5 draft position, as the learning curve for DTs is so long. So how do you defend Dorsey with the 5th pick?

If you think Dorsey's been successful for us so far, you aren't watching Chiefs games. Maybe he'll turn it around next year, but he's been pitifully bad (along with the rest of the DL) in 2008.

balto
11-17-2008, 08:30 PM
:lol:

You know that Levi Brown was drafted to protect MATT LEINART!!!!! A "LEFT" handed QB, please try again!!!!

Levi Brown WAS drafted to be a BLIND side Tackle, most QB's in the NFL throw right handed SO that Blind side tackle is a LT, but if your QB is a lefty that same tackle that would be your blind side (LT) is now on the right side

:lol:

Please give me another example (and do research)

ALSO, since 2000 there have been MANY DT's drafted in the top 10 and top 5.

There has been

1-3rd pick
1-4th pick
1-5th pick (Dorsey)
4-6th pick
1-7th pick
1-9th pick
1-10th pick

I have tried my best to find a player that has been drafted to play RT(or non blind side) in the top 15, but I can find ZERO!!!!!! Please help me find one LOL

Yes I agree DT can take longer to get better then other positions, but hey by the time the Chiefs are contenders Dorsey will be a TOP DT in the NFL.

Just please get past this drafting a RT with 15th over all.

NOW that being said, I have no problem with us drafting a STUD LT this year and moving Albert to Guard then even picking up another guard in the draft to someday replace Waters.