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D.A.S.
01-12-2009, 11:38 PM
Maybe he is and maybe he ain't. I think we should take a QB with the first pick because it ain't worth the risk. We've seen this before and if he is we have another Huard situation on our hands and we need to prevent that. I still like Croyle but I know most of you won't like to hear that if Thigpen is a one season wonder than Croyle becomes the starter next year. Is that really what you want? Worst case scenario, Thigpen works out and we have a backup who is good (and with how much he runs the ball he'll get hurt sooner or later) or a player we can trade for a high pick or a good player from another team after it becomes aparent we don't need him.

11sjw
01-12-2009, 11:59 PM
Why not draft a guy like Crabtree or a big nasty O Lineman who'll play straight up?

Bike
01-13-2009, 12:02 AM
Maybe he is and maybe he ain't. I think we should take a QB with the first pick because it ain't worth the risk. We've seen this before and if he is we have another Huard situation on our hands and we need to prevent that. I still like Croyle but I know most of you won't like to hear that if Thigpen is a one season wonder than Croyle becomes the starter next year. Is that really what you want? Worst case scenario, Thigpen works out and we have a backup who is good (and with how much he runs the ball he'll get hurt sooner or later) or a player we can trade for a high pick or a good player from another team after it becomes aparent we don't need him.
Who's to say that taking Stafford wouldn't be a huge risk - and at HUGE dollars? We have so many needs that taking qb with 1st pick doesn't make sense. 3 out of 5 of our ol needs attention ASAP, not to mention our front 7 on defense. This is the year we need to build our lines..

jerhart
01-13-2009, 12:08 AM
I agree...do NOT take a QB with our first pick. I rattled off a list of first round QB's in a thread a while ago who proved to be all busts. Go for a QB in the 3rd round if anything. QB is not a priority on our team now. The defense needs all the help they can get. Thigpen can throw 20-30 pts up a game...but our defense can't protect a lead worth sh!t.

And Croyle can't finish a game. End of story.

Bike
01-13-2009, 12:15 AM
I agree...do NOT take a QB with our first pick. I rattled off a list of first round QB's in a thread a while ago who proved to be all busts. Go for a QB in the 3rd round if anything. QB is not a priority on our team now. The defense needs all the help they can get. Thigpen can throw 20-30 pts up a game...but our defense can't protect a lead worth sh!t.

And Croyle can't finish a game. End of story.
Not to mention he has yet to win a game the 3 years he has been here! Croyle was a bust, but at least we didn't draft him in the 1st round...:bananen_smilies046:

hardcorechiefsfan
01-13-2009, 12:49 AM
Maybe, maybe not...

Big Daddy Tek
01-13-2009, 12:54 AM
No way we select a quarterback with our first pick. Are you crazy? Even if we do, we cant block for him. We need a LT and pick up a LG in free agency or vice versa. If we dont get a LT in the first pick than we need a defensive play maker at LB or DE.

Hayvern
01-13-2009, 02:17 AM
Maybe he is and maybe he ain't. I think we should take a QB with the first pick because it ain't worth the risk. We've seen this before and if he is we have another Huard situation on our hands and we need to prevent that. I still like Croyle but I know most of you won't like to hear that if Thigpen is a one season wonder than Croyle becomes the starter next year. Is that really what you want? Worst case scenario, Thigpen works out and we have a backup who is good (and with how much he runs the ball he'll get hurt sooner or later) or a player we can trade for a high pick or a good player from another team after it becomes aparent we don't need him.

Dude seriously, OK, I have to be a jerk here, haven't we pretty much hammered this to death, I mean, go look at the tons of other posts from others who think we have to draft a QB in the first round.

There is no way we should take a QB this season, NO WAY! Perhaps pick up Dehlomme from Carolina, or stay with Thigpen another season. He performed well enough to get he nod for next year. Ultimately, we cannot afford a 12 million dollar a year stud that is going to get knocked out in the first game because our offensive line is like swiss cheese. Enough with the first round QB talk already.

Three7s
01-13-2009, 05:08 AM
No way we select a quarterback with our first pick. Are you crazy? Even if we do, we cant block for him. We need a LT and pick up a LG in free agency or vice versa. If we dont get a LT in the first pick than we need a defensive play maker at LB or DE.
We need an LT and LG? I'll agree that we MIGHT need an LG since we don't know how long Waters has, but did you even see Albert play? We need RT and RG the most.

windwalker
01-13-2009, 06:43 AM
I have an idea..

Why don't we beat this dead horse to death????

hometeam
01-13-2009, 09:09 AM
I donthink KC will go QB in first round.. it just doesn't make sense with all of the needs that KC has, and the fact that there are no super great Qb's coming out. We can draft a guy in the mid rounds and have him compete with Thigpen, or, pick someone up in FA that will compete for the starting job~

If we get Pioli hes gonna be scouring those mid/lower rounds for another Brady to make himself look like a genius... and I hope he pulls it off~

yashi
01-13-2009, 09:30 AM
QB was a strength this season.
DE was a weakness.
OL was a weakness.

Therefore we need to draft DE/OL, don't overthink things.

jmlamerson
01-13-2009, 09:57 AM
We need an LT and LG? I'll agree that we MIGHT need an LG since we don't know how long Waters has, but did you even see Albert play? We need RT and RG the most.

Albert did well in the spread, but he struggled heavily until we moved to the spread. Moving him to RT or RG isn't a terrible idea.

yashi
01-13-2009, 10:09 AM
Albert did well in the spread, but he struggled heavily until we moved to the spread. Moving him to RT or RG isn't a terrible idea.

He gave up 4.5 sacks this season which is pretty good (Gross gave up 3 in the same number of games). But I do remember him having problems before Thigpen took over and I'm positive that number would have been much higher had we not been in shotgun so much.

If you have the choice between possibly having both a pro bowl tackle (#3 pick) and guard (Albert), or having a "good" tackle (Albert) and terrible guard (Jones or whoever), the decision should be simple.

I don't see what we're hoping for by taking a QB. Realistically, what are the chances that Stafford puts up a 21 TD, 12 INT season in his 2nd year? Thigpen produced as a 24 year old in his 2nd season. I don't see what more you can ask for at the QB position.

Seek
01-13-2009, 12:51 PM
Unless you draft a Spread type of QB, there is no point in discussing a different QB until the offensive line is solid and the defense isn't ranked last in the NFL.

Thigpen single handily lost us two games this year. Until thigpen game in, the Chiefs looked like the worste team in the NFL.

There are much bigger issues that need to be addressed.

Starting with the last place HERM built Defense.

m0ef0e
01-13-2009, 02:30 PM
While we're at it, let's draft some corners too. Cuz nobody knows if Carr, Flowers, and Leggett will pan-out or not...

'Cmon with all this "QB in the first round" talk...

You really think so?

This team has enough to do already in order to right the ship that the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" would certainly apply here, IMO.

I agree with taking a QB in maybe round 3 or later but if we blow our first pick on one of the pretenders in this year's draft, I'm gonna be pissed.

josh1971
01-13-2009, 02:41 PM
So now we're going to break it down into how many games Thigpen single handedly lost? Ok- well how about the games lost by everyone else, then? Because if we're going to complain about 2 games lost by Thigpen, how about the 8 or 9 lost by the defense, and the one that Connor Barth lost?

It's impossible to say that Thigpen is a one season anything without having multiple seasons to judge that. Let's get a few more weapons around him, and get him the O-line that will not only protect him, but also give him a running game that will take heat off the passing game.

Let's get him a defense that will not make every game a high-scoring shoot out by failing to stop anyone.

When you have games with your "feature" running back gaining 2 yards, 8 yards, 10 yards, that's not helping anything.

Offensive line, defensive line, then linebackers.

The dead horse is now so beaten, it is unrecognizable.

jb

D.A.S.
01-13-2009, 02:48 PM
When Thigpen becomes the loser he was born to be, and we know he is because he can't play in an NFL offense, we have to mock a college offense just so he can play, and there's a reason NFL teams don't use college offenses, then you'll all look at the QB we passed up and complain about how stupid the Chiefs were. I remember listening to how Ryan and Flacco would never be franchise QBs or maybe not even starters. How they were a watse of a draft pick. Let's face the music, if you have a great QB you are a great team year after year, Marino, Manning, Elway, Montana, Young, Aikman, and on and on. When you don't you are never a consitently good team. Thigpen is NOT that QB and with how bad our enire team is the only way to turn it around quickly is to get a competant QB who can play in an NFL offense.

Canada
01-13-2009, 02:58 PM
When Thigpen becomes the loser he was born to be, and we know he is because he can't play in an NFL offense, we have to mock a college offense just so he can play, and there's a reason NFL teams don't use college offenses, then you'll all look at the QB we passed up and complain about how stupid the Chiefs were. I remember listening to how Ryan and Flacco would never be franchise QBs or maybe not even starters. How they were a watse of a draft pick. Let's face the music, if you have a great QB you are a great team year after year, Marino, Manning, Elway, Montana, Young, Aikman, and on and on. When you don't you are never a consitently good team. Thigpen is NOT that QB and with how bad our enire team is the only way to turn it around quickly is to get a competant QB who can play in an NFL offense.

If only that were the magic answer. Draft a QB and everything will get better. How about we worrk about all the guys around the QB first and let our competent QB show us what he can do in an NFL offense. As much as I would like to believe in your ability to evaluate talent, I would still like to see Thigpen have a chance and he totally deserves it. I love your faith in the players on the team. Your first quote is "When Thigpen become the loser he was born to be" "We have to have a college offense for his sake" Those might be the two most poorly thought out comments I have ever heard. Maybe the college offense was implemented for the rest of the offense. Maybe our poor O line play or RB play had something to do with it. I mean honestly, outside of this season (which was pretty good for Thigpen) when did u ever evaluate his talent on the field?? He now has some experience and will have an entire offseason to run with the first team Offense and you think it is time to take our third pick and spend it in a mediocre QB class with no improvement on the line and all of your problems are solved. If only we had you on staff for the Chiefs. We would have drafted a QB a couple of years ago with no O line and then everything would be fine. Unless he was a bust that turned out to be injured all the time...oh of course, you probably knew Croyle was a bust too right? :sign0098:

jmlamerson
01-13-2009, 03:26 PM
When Thigpen becomes the loser he was born to be, and we know he is because he can't play in an NFL offense, we have to mock a college offense just so he can play, and there's a reason NFL teams don't use college offenses, then you'll all look at the QB we passed up and complain about how stupid the Chiefs were. I remember listening to how Ryan and Flacco would never be franchise QBs or maybe not even starters. How they were a watse of a draft pick. Let's face the music, if you have a great QB you are a great team year after year, Marino, Manning, Elway, Montana, Young, Aikman, and on and on. When you don't you are never a consitently good team. Thigpen is NOT that QB and with how bad our enire team is the only way to turn it around quickly is to get a competant QB who can play in an NFL offense.

You're seriously making this argument? Who, exactly, do you think is a franchise QB in this draft? Stafford/Bradford are the next Carr/Harrington, Tim Coach/Akili Smith, JaMarcus Russell/Brady Quinn, Vince Young/Matt Leinert. Every draft could be second guessed. For each of the franchise QBs you listed above, there a five busts. And none of the QBs listed above ever did anything without sterling supporting casts.

The Chiefs, in hindsight, look like morons for passing on Clady or Flacco at the 5-spot instead of Dorsey. Bad picks are made. But drafting a rookie QB and throwing him to the wolves is only going to slow this team's progress. If Thigpen turns out to be a loser in 2009, there are actually good QBs coming out in 2010.

I don't know whether Thigpen is good enough to win a SB. Neither do you. He won as many games this year as any QB could have, given our OL and defense. He was a bright spot in a miserable year.

Chief Tyler
01-13-2009, 03:47 PM
You're seriously making this argument? Who, exactly, do you think is a franchise QB in this draft? Stafford/Bradford are the next Carr/Harrington, Tim Coach/Akili Smith, JaMarcus Russell/Brady Quinn, Vince Young/Matt Leinert. Every draft could be second guessed. For each of the franchise QBs you listed above, there a five busts. And none of the QBs listed above ever did anything without sterling supporting casts.

The Chiefs, in hindsight, look like morons for passing on Clady or Flacco at the 5-spot instead of Dorsey. Bad picks are made. But drafting a rookie QB and throwing him to the wolves is only going to slow this team's progress. If Thigpen turns out to be a loser in 2009, there are actually good QBs coming out in 2010.

I don't know whether Thigpen is good enough to win a SB. Neither do you. He won as many games this year as any QB could have, given our OL and defense. He was a bright spot in a miserable year.

To be fair I think the organization would have looked like morons had they taken somebody like Flacco over Dorsey. You said that no great QB would have done what they have done without a supporting cast, so I would assume that trend would hold true with the big rookies this season. They were drafted into the right organization at the right time. Maybe future hindsight might alter our opinions yet again about this draft. Dorsey has yet to develop, we have yet to see what Cottam can do, Albert and Charles have shown a lot of promise over the season and our backs look as solid as any team given how much they're on the field.


---------------Second half not directed at any person in particular.


And I don't know how people can call Thigpen a bust in an NFL offense without giving him the proper setting to try first. Our line was in shambles, Gaily gave us a chance to win games by adapting the offense to our strengths. For most of the season those strenghts didn't include a probowl line and a pound it in your face running game that can pick up 10 yards any given possesion. I'm not sure what people are trying to take away from his performance this season. He's proven to be a running threat, and with time a much better passing threat (as if 21 and 12 wasn't stellar enough from what is essentially a rookie season). I've heard too often that he targets Gonzo too much and it's easy for defenses to know where he's going. Correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe Bowe had over one thousand yards this season and something like 85 catches. Who else is he going to look to when our number two receiver was taken off of waivers partway through the season (and what a catch he's been). I've seen a few people say he is too small. So what? Some of the franchise QB's you have have mentioned have been on the small side. Montana is 6'2, as is Favre and Young. Starr, Unitas and Namath were smaller than that. Hell, our very own Len Dawson was barely six foot.

m0ef0e
01-13-2009, 03:55 PM
When Thigpen becomes the loser he was born to be, and we know he is because he can't play in an NFL offense, we have to mock a college offense just so he can play, and there's a reason NFL teams don't use college offenses, then you'll all look at the QB we passed up and complain about how stupid the Chiefs were. I remember listening to how Ryan and Flacco would never be franchise QBs or maybe not even starters. How they were a watse of a draft pick. Let's face the music, if you have a great QB you are a great team year after year, Marino, Manning, Elway, Montana, Young, Aikman, and on and on. When you don't you are never a consitently good team. Thigpen is NOT that QB and with how bad our enire team is the only way to turn it around quickly is to get a competant QB who can play in an NFL offense.

You really think that Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are so good that they carried their teams into the playoffs?

Quite the contrary. While they played well in their rookie seasons, much or most of their success can be credited to the rest of the team. Both were solid all season but neither guy had eye-popping numbers.

It's no secret that Flacco and the Ravens are where they are today because of their defense. Granted, Flacco did help that defense and that team get to the next level because he is not a TOTAL screw-up like Kyle Boller or a 400-year-old Steve Mcnair. Even the most flawed of diamonds will shine compared to a piece of coal. Flacco and Ryan both don't HAVE to be the next Montana, Elway, etc. All they have to do is not screw up horribly.

Great QB does not always equal great team, either. Kerry Collins has been to more superbowls than Dan Marino. Besides, anybody who even halfway watches football can take any of the great QB's from your list there and name several other key players/coaches that contributed to said team's successful era right off the top of their heads.

Just for comparison, though, let's look at how some of these guys did in their first year with significant playing time.

Marino - Did very well. 7 wins his first year (went on to break records in a 14-win season the following year).

Manning - 3 wins (13 wins the following season).

Elway - 9 wins.

Montana - 2 wins (played all 16 games).

Young - 6 wins (1991 season when Joe Montana was hurt, Young also missed some of the season due to injury).

Aikman - Finished 1989 with an 0-11 record as a starter, completing 155 of 293 passes for 1,749 yards, 9 TDs, 18 INTs.

So, of the guys listed, only half started their career with a winning record.

Don't be so quick to label Thig. By that reasoning, Manning, Montana, and Aikman were all wastes of space and should have been replaced by a #1 pick following their first season.

jmlamerson
01-13-2009, 04:07 PM
To be fair I think the organization would have looked like morons had they taken somebody like Flacco over Dorsey. You said that no great QB would have done what they have done without a supporting cast, so I would assume that trend would hold true with the big rookies this season. They were drafted into the right organization at the right time. Maybe future hindsight might alter our opinions yet again about this draft. Dorsey has yet to develop, we have yet to see what Cottam can do, Albert and Charles have shown a lot of promise over the season and our backs look as solid as any team given how much they're on the field.

True. My point was that many picks, in retrospect, could have been better. Many teams regret not getting Ryan and Flacco in 2008. Just as many are thankful they didn't pick Ryan Leaf or Tim Couch. That doesn't mean you reach for a QB this draft as some sort of panecea for all of our ills.

Seek
01-13-2009, 04:56 PM
So now we're going to break it down into how many games Thigpen single handedly lost? Ok- well how about the games lost by everyone else, then? Because if we're going to complain about 2 games lost by Thigpen, how about the 8 or 9 lost by the defense, and the one that Connor Barth lost?

It's impossible to say that Thigpen is a one season anything without having multiple seasons to judge that. Let's get a few more weapons around him, and get him the O-line that will not only protect him, but also give him a running game that will take heat off the passing game.

Let's get him a defense that will not make every game a high-scoring shoot out by failing to stop anyone.

When you have games with your "feature" running back gaining 2 yards, 8 yards, 10 yards, that's not helping anything.

Offensive line, defensive line, then linebackers.

The dead horse is now so beaten, it is unrecognizable.

jb


Please read my post again. You are basically agreeing with my post. I basically said there is only two games you can give any fault to Thigpen over. If it wasn't for Thigpen, the Chiefs looked like one of the worste teams in the NFL. There is much bigger issued to fix other than Thigpen.

kcmostwanted
01-13-2009, 05:08 PM
Well w/ all this debating going on you guys better hope that Sam Bradford stays in College.... I think if he does that, that'll make the decision that much easier for the Chiefs....

I mean the only legit QB coming out right now is Matthew Stafford (and I question whether he should even be a top 10 draft pick).
I know that Nate Davis looked awful in his bowl game but he's a guy that I really like coming out of the MAC. Maybe we can spend a 3rd round pick on someone like that.

Ultimately we need to sign FA's for at least 2 of the 3 positions in the offseason: tackle / DE / or LB.

jerhart
01-13-2009, 05:09 PM
Give it up already about gettin a new QB! Thigpen may not be the future of our organization...but he is not going to wreck our team. He was the one bright spot on our season this year. And remember...you are judging Thigpen under Herm's coaching...who is the worst at clock management. Who know's what Thigpen could do under a REAL coach. QB IS NOT PRIORITY.


Answer me this...what do all these guys have in common?

Akili Smith
Tim Couch
Cade Mcnown
Heath Shuler
Ryan Leaf
Chris Weinke
Tommy Maddux
Dave Brown
Jim Druckenmiller
Rick Mirer
Art Schlichter
Kelly Stouffe
Andre Ware
Rich Campbell
David Klingler
Todd Marinovich
Dan McGwire
Rick Mirer

...do you really feel comfortable in all our other skilled positions to GAMBLE a 1st round pick on a QB?

debearzz
01-13-2009, 05:15 PM
The big difference between a one season wonder and a legit starter is the learning curve. In watching each of Thigpen's games, I would say he usually adjusted well and made starter moves, like throwing the ball away when he didn't have an outlet. And yes, he did make rookie mistakes, but, amazingly, he basically is a rookie after being a 3rd string, 7th round pick at QB.

The most impressive thing I saw from him was leading the team down the field on a last minute drive from San Diego to set up a makeable field goal. That is the hardest thing to do for a quarterback, and he handled the pressure well.

slimdagreat
01-13-2009, 05:30 PM
The last thing we need to do is draft a QB with our 1st rouder. We have so many other holes, especially up front that we need to address first, and Thigpen even if he is a bust (which I don't think he is) is a nice stop gap.

I don't think Thigpen is the long term solution by any stretch, but if we can get Andre Smith, Aaron Curry, or Brian Orakpo we should take them 1st.

jmlamerson
01-13-2009, 05:39 PM
The last thing we need to do is draft a QB with our 1st rouder. We have so many other holes, especially up front that we need to address first, and Thigpen even if he is a bust (which I don't think he is) is a nice stop gap.

I don't think Thigpen is the long term solution by any stretch, but if we can get Andre Smith, Aaron Curry, or Brian Orakpo we should take them 1st.

Agreed, except for Orakpo. Our DL is small enough. We need someone with heft on the line next year.

slimdagreat
01-13-2009, 05:48 PM
Agreed, except for Orakpo. Our DL is small enough. We need someone with heft on the line next year.

@ 6'4 260 he's almost the same size as Jared Allen.

What they need is the ability to get to the QB, and stop the run. that won't get done until they get a pass rushing DE, and LBs that can actually tackle.

jmlamerson
01-13-2009, 05:55 PM
@ 6'4 260 he's almost the same size as Jared Allen.

What they need is the ability to get to the QB, and stop the run. that won't get done until they get a pass rushing DE, and LBs that can actually tackle.

JA's 6' 6", 270 lbs, which is a bit bigger. I agree as to the DE/LB. The Cards aren't going to re-franchise Dansby, nor the Saints Vilma, nor the Ravens Suggs (per Yahoo), and the Titans can't re-franchise Haynesworth. Those four signings would solve an awful, awful lot of problems.

Seek
01-13-2009, 06:01 PM
Give it up already about gettin a new QB! Thigpen may not be the future of our organization...but he is not going to wreck our team. He was the one bright spot on our season this year. And remember...you are judging Thigpen under Herm's coaching...who is the worst at clock management. Who know's what Thigpen could do under a REAL coach. QB IS NOT PRIORITY.


Answer me this...what do all these guys have in common?

Akili Smith
Tim Couch
Cade Mcnown
Heath Shuler
Ryan Leaf
Chris Weinke
Tommy Maddux
Dave Brown
Jim Druckenmiller
Rick Mirer
Art Schlichter
Kelly Stouffe
Andre Ware
Rich Campbell
David Klingler
Todd Marinovich
Dan McGwire
Rick Mirer

...do you really feel comfortable in all our other skilled positions to GAMBLE a 1st round pick on a QB?

Tommy Maddux was a stud in the XFL.

jerhart
01-13-2009, 06:05 PM
Tommy Maddux was a stud in the XFL.

Ha...you got me! :bananen_smilies046:

Vandelay
01-13-2009, 06:11 PM
Please dont spend the 1st rounder on a QB. We need to spend the early picks on the lines. Thigpen did a good job for getting thrown in a bad situation, with a horrible O-line. Just look at the improvement after the atlanta game. Give him the off-season and training camp, and I think Thigpen will lead this team to the playoffs next year.