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marloweopatchiefs
02-02-2009, 02:35 PM
i see he is also a free agent. what do you people think of kansas city going after him? good or bad? this defense does need help. ray lewis or peppers could give them a big attitude adjustment

yashi
02-02-2009, 02:41 PM
There's already many threads talking about Peppers and Lewis. Search is your friend :)

Bike
02-02-2009, 02:57 PM
Anybody we could talk or wallet their way here would be an improvement over what we got now...

theaxeeffect4311
02-02-2009, 03:59 PM
You have to think that Pioli is thinking about Peppers, especially after Peppers said he wants out of Carolina. Peppers may be an older FA (29) but well worth it. We saw how well Strahan (I do not like him, but he played well) played until he was 35. I can see Peppers doing the same, which means he has at least 5 good years in him. Peppers is a beast, a dominating force on the D-line. He will improve any team he goes to. If the Chiefs grab him, he'll improve the play of the players around him. Dorsey will stop being double teamed. Tamba will get clean-up sacks. Who knows how Tyler will develop. Plus, Peppers does well in run support. He is the player the Chiefs are looking for at DE. Now, it's just a matter of Pioli luring him to KC.

jmlamerson
02-02-2009, 04:20 PM
We have to wait and see who we hire as HC and DC before we know who we're targeting in FA. Simply because guys like Peppers, Suggs, Haynesworth, Dansby, Vilma, etc. may only be effective in certain schemes. If we move to a 3-4, I don't see the value in spending 1DE money on Peppers. If we stay in the 3-4, I do.

The only top FA I want us to try for, regardless of scheme, is Nnamdi Asomugha - assuming Al Davis is too dumb to franchise him.

marloweopatchiefs
02-05-2009, 02:15 PM
well i hope we get mr peppers. I've seen him play and will say he was mighty good. Ray lewis is getting to old though for him to come here. We shall see though.

stevo1020
02-05-2009, 02:20 PM
All I have to say is that I hope Pioli moves a little faster in the FA market then in his coaching search or his firing of Herm if he wants to bring in some big name players or we will never see any of them here.

jmlamerson
02-05-2009, 02:49 PM
All I have to say is that I hope Pioli moves a little faster in the FA market then in his coaching search or his firing of Herm if he wants to bring in some big name players or we will never see any of them here.

FA doesn't start for three weeks. Don't worry about Pioli. He's got this whole thing worked out.

hermhater
02-05-2009, 03:50 PM
Peppers is just such a cool name.

Big Daddy Tek
02-05-2009, 03:58 PM
Peppers said that he wants to play in a 3-4 defense. At this rate, we wont even have a D-coordinator by the time free agency opens up. Who knows what we will be playing?

hermhater
02-05-2009, 03:58 PM
Would be nice to know if Haley is here or not.

Chiefster
02-06-2009, 12:17 AM
Would be nice to know if Haley is here or not.

??????

KristofLaw
02-06-2009, 01:12 AM
We have to wait and see who we hire as HC and DC before we know who we're targeting in FA. Simply because guys like Peppers, Suggs, Haynesworth, Dansby, Vilma, etc. may only be effective in certain schemes. If we move to a 3-4, I don't see the value in spending 1DE money on Peppers. If we stay in the 3-4, I do.

The only top FA I want us to try for, regardless of scheme, is Nnamdi Asomugha - assuming Al Davis is too dumb to franchise him.


I agree with this statement. He and Clark have been talking these things out since Petersen announced his resignation. They are just not bowing down to the media like most franchises do.
Extremely interesting watching the new regime work... just bring in the doubleU's.

johnNYchief
02-06-2009, 02:56 PM
You have to think that Pioli is thinking about Peppers, especially after Peppers said he wants out of Carolina. Peppers may be an older FA (29) but well worth it. We saw how well Strahan (I do not like him, but he played well) played until he was 35. I can see Peppers doing the same, which means he has at least 5 good years in him. Peppers is a beast, a dominating force on the D-line. He will improve any team he goes to. If the Chiefs grab him, he'll improve the play of the players around him. Dorsey will stop being double teamed. Tamba will get clean-up sacks. Who knows how Tyler will develop. Plus, Peppers does well in run support. He is the player the Chiefs are looking for at DE. Now, it's just a matter of Pioli luring him to KC.
he is a beast and I would love to see him in red and gold.

dbolan
02-06-2009, 03:08 PM
Big Deal on Peppers...He averages 10 sack a year, that's a little over 1/2 a sack per game plus he did not play with any slouches at Carolina.

I think we can find someone that can put some heat on the pass rush for less money and it a bit younger.

Bike
02-06-2009, 03:57 PM
Big Deal on Peppers...He averages 10 sack a year, that's a little over 1/2 a sack per game plus he did not play with any slouches at Carolina.

I think we can find someone that can put some heat on the pass rush for less money and it a bit younger.
Agreed. Lets get Vilma and Dansby. I want both.

yashi
02-06-2009, 04:01 PM
Big Deal on Peppers...He averages 10 sack a year, that's a little over 1/2 a sack per game plus he did not play with any slouches at Carolina.

I think we can find someone that can put some heat on the pass rush for less money and it a bit younger.
But, he had 14.5 sacks this season and our entire defense had what, 9?

He was tied for 2nd among 4-3 DEs this season and 4th in 2006.

theaxeeffect4311
02-07-2009, 05:30 AM
Big Deal on Peppers...He averages 10 sack a year, that's a little over 1/2 a sack per game plus he did not play with any slouches at Carolina.

I think we can find someone that can put some heat on the pass rush for less money and it a bit younger.

Who? That is the hard part. We need someone who is proven to fill that role. The only two free agents that have the kind of rep are Peppers and Suggs. I would like Suggs more but he wants to stay with the Ravens. Peppers wants out of Carolina which makes him a good candidate. Peppers is not done by any means. Plus, Peppers takes on the double team and still puts up good numbers. Dorsey needs time to develop and it will help if he's not being double teamed. I think that if we can get Peppers to handle the double team, then our other D-line players will look good.

marloweopatchiefs
02-09-2009, 02:29 PM
i wish they would go for julius peppers

dbolan
02-09-2009, 02:56 PM
But, he had 14.5 sacks this season and our entire defense had what, 9?

He was tied for 2nd among 4-3 DEs this season and 4th in 2006.

I think there are 4 or 5 DE's projected in the first that look good. They could slide to the second round.

He was 4th in 06 and tied for 2nd in 2008. So what. Another player going all out in a contract year that had SOLID players around him in every position.

Like I said...I would not spend it on him. I had rather get a couple of very good linebackers, or some DB's if we go defense and draft a DE.


For Offense, we do need at least 2 lineman and a WR that can stretch the other side of the field.

jmlamerson
02-09-2009, 03:04 PM
Who? That is the hard part. We need someone who is proven to fill that role. The only two free agents that have the kind of rep are Peppers and Suggs. I would like Suggs more but he wants to stay with the Ravens. Peppers wants out of Carolina which makes him a good candidate. Peppers is not done by any means. Plus, Peppers takes on the double team and still puts up good numbers. Dorsey needs time to develop and it will help if he's not being double teamed. I think that if we can get Peppers to handle the double team, then our other D-line players will look good.

Not to sound contrarian, but our DL will never improve until we get better DTs. It doesn't matter whether we get Peppers and Suggs to main our DE positions. So long as our defensive line can get blown up every running play, it will be ineffective. Not to be too hard on Dorsey or Tank, but having them as our full-time DTs was the main reason our DL was so terrible. Can/will they improve? Who knows. But unless they do, or unless we replace them, it doesn't matter who we bring in to be our DEs next year.

EDIT: And people need to stop trying to create the myth that Dorsey was double teamed most of last year. He wasn't. A single guard was usually enough to blow him off the line.

yashi
02-09-2009, 03:10 PM
I think there are 4 or 5 DE's projected in the first that look good. They could slide to the second round.

He was 4th in 06 and tied for 2nd in 2008. So what. Another player going all out in a contract year that had SOLID players around him in every position.

Like I said...I would not spend it on him. I had rather get a couple of very good linebackers, or some DB's if we go defense and draft a DE.


For Offense, we do need at least 2 lineman and a WR that can stretch the other side of the field.

All I know is that DE was our biggest weakness last season and should be the biggest acquisition this offseason. Somebody who is proven, not just another prospect who may or may not turn out to amount to anything. If our pass rush doesn't improve then 2009's defense will be a repeat of 2008's.

dbolan
02-09-2009, 03:11 PM
More first round hype....most are busts.

That is why I don't see Pioli splurging in the 1rst unless he has some damn good inside info. Period.

chief31
02-10-2009, 07:45 AM
I think there are 4 or 5 DE's projected in the first that look good. They could slide to the second round.

Just as long as we don't reach in the first round.

He was 4th in 06 and tied for 2nd in 2008. So what. Another player going all out in a contract year that had SOLID players around him in every position.

I don't care if he has three gods on the line with him. He gets pressure by beating Opponents' best pass protectors in one-on-one match-ups. That is what was missing from our D this season.

Like I said...I would not spend it on him. I had rather get a couple of very good linebackers, or some DB's if we go defense and draft a DE.


For Offense, we do need at least 2 lineman and a WR that can stretch the other side of the field.

This defense has shown themselves to be the worst ever recorded, for getting QB pressure. Something needs to be done about that.

I think Peppers would be a good fit.


Not to sound contrarian, but our DL will never improve until we get better DTs. It doesn't matter whether we get Peppers and Suggs to main our DE positions. So long as our defensive line can get blown up every running play, it will be ineffective. Not to be too hard on Dorsey or Tank, but having them as our full-time DTs was the main reason our DL was so terrible. Can/will they improve? Who knows. But unless they do, or unless we replace them, it doesn't matter who we bring in to be our DEs next year.

EDIT: And people need to stop trying to create the myth that Dorsey was double teamed most of last year. He wasn't. A single guard was usually enough to blow him off the line.

Of course a good pass-rushing DE would improve this line. It was better with JA. Much better in fact.

But I agree that the DT positions were not much beter than the DEs in '08.

balto
02-10-2009, 10:53 AM
DE, DE, DE .........

We HAVE to get our DE in FA no question about it!!!!!!

These are the FA's that would be better then ANY Draft Pick this year (In Order that I would like to see us get):
1) Terrell Suggs
2) Julius Peppers
3) Chris Canty
4) Antonio Smith


There is NO way we should not be able to get one of these guys.

Actually even if we don't get one of these guys we would be better off staying with what we have at DE and still not draft one in the high rounds. Whats the point of drafting someone that will not do any better then what we have?

jmlamerson
02-10-2009, 11:23 AM
Of course a good pass-rushing DE would improve this line. It was better with JA. Much better in fact.

But I agree that the DT positions were not much beter than the DEs in '08.

Everyone forgets that JA didn't have to play with Tank and Dorsey. He played with average vets in Edwards and Boone on the line. I don't think JA would have had a good season in 2008 on the Chiefs if Dorsey and Tank were his DTs. He'd have been double teamed every play as the rest of the DL got blown off the line.

And again, I'm not trying to mock Tank and Dorsey's potential. I'm only saying that it's a bad idea to invest a lot in a pass rusher if you're not going to upgrade the DT position.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 11:29 AM
Everyone forgets that JA didn't have to play with Tank and Dorsey. He played with average vets in Edwards and Boone on the line. I don't think JA would have had a good season in 2008 on the Chiefs if Dorsey and Tank were his DTs. He'd have been double teamed every play as the rest of the DL got blown off the line.

And again, I'm not trying to mock Tank and Dorsey's potential. I'm only saying that it's a bad idea to invest a lot in a pass rusher if you're not going to upgrade the DT position.

Really? He played with a pair of Pro Bowlers this season and did worse than he did last year when he missed games. DTs are not the problem. It takes time for DTs to develop. At least Tank and Dorsey can stay healthy.

jmlamerson
02-10-2009, 11:37 AM
Really? He played with a pair of Pro Bowlers this season and did worse than he did last year when he missed games. DTs are not the problem. It takes time for DTs to develop. At least Tank and Dorsey can stay healthy.

He was playing on a new team and a new system this year, and still ended up 14.5 sacks. I don't think anyone considers this a down year for him.

Edwards and Boone were healthy all through 2007. Dorsey and Tank were ineffective against the run and pass. Unless we get much better play from the DT position, this team will never be better than 30th against the run.

texaschief
02-10-2009, 11:44 AM
He was playing on a new team and a new system this year, and still ended up 14.5 sacks. I don't think anyone considers this a down year for him.

Edwards and Boone were healthy all through 2007. Dorsey and Tank were ineffective against the run and pass. Unless we get much better play from the DT position, this team will never be better than 30th against the run.

Doesn't happen overnight, bud. No matter how much you want it to. Throwing huge contracts at old players is just going to put us right back in the hole we're trying to climb out of.

jmlamerson
02-10-2009, 11:58 AM
Doesn't happen overnight, bud. No matter how much you want it to. Throwing huge contracts at old players is just going to put us right back in the hole we're trying to climb out of.

When did I suggest that we throw huge contracts at old players? I don't recall ever suggesting that we sign any player 30+.

And we can't draft our way out of this mess. We need people to start on defense next year. Our offseason plan shouldn't be based on the prayer that Hali, Tank, and Dorsey play massively better in 2009 than they did in 2008. Bud.

theaxeeffect4311
02-11-2009, 03:46 AM
When did I suggest that we throw huge contracts at old players? I don't recall ever suggesting that we sign any player 30+.

And we can't draft our way out of this mess. We need people to start on defense next year. Our offseason plan shouldn't be based on the prayer that Hali, Tank, and Dorsey play massively better in 2009 than they did in 2008. Bud.

Then who? You can talk about Chiefs need replacements. Tank and Dorsey are not starters. The draft will not fix the defensive line problems. And why do you think that Dorsey and Tank will not get better? So then what is your plan if you are going to shoot down everything else?

I can't wait to see how our defense looks with a real defensive coordinator and head coach.

Oregon_Chief
02-11-2009, 06:06 AM
The problem I see is that everyone wants the defense fixed. And fixed NOW, as if there's some grand illusion of the Chiefs competing for the playoffs next season.

I think whichever team gives Peppers the huge payday he's seeking, which will probably make him one of the top three highest paid defenders in football, is foolishly mortgaging their future for an inconsistent, aging player with chronic knee problems. I think Peppers would fit in better with a seasoned team in a "win now" situation, like, perhaps, Tennessee. I don't believe the Chiefs will be players in acquiring his services.

The Chiefs front seven on defense needs to be completely rebuilt. That takes time, and the answers are not in free agency. I see a couple of free agents that could help the Chiefs right away, such as LB Bart Scott, LB Carlos Dansby and DE Antonio Smith. And maybe Terrell Suggs if the Chiefs opt to start building a 3-4 defense under a new defensive coordinator. But none of those players is so good that he's going to turn around a horrible defense.

Pickings are slim. Free agency isn't what it used to be. You don't see Reggie Whites on the market these days. The Chiefs will need to build with smart drafting if they're ever going to get to the promised land. Building with the draft is how champions have always done it, even in the free agency era. If you look at every team that has won a Super Bowl over the last 16 years since free agency began, the core of their success has been to cultivate in the draft, with free agency serving as little more than a supplement.

If you want to summarize the demise of the Chiefs over the last three years in two words, it would be "bad drafting." The Chiefs have been horrible in the draft during the reign of King Carl. He milked the Derrick Thomas and Neil SMith picks as long as he could as evidence of his draft prowess, and gloried in unearthing Priest Holmes as a bargain basement free agent. But those were the exceptions. The hard truth was that the man was terrible at drafting talent. He could only attempt to plug holes with free agency and the occasional trade to keep the team afloat and competitive. But the ship finally capsized when there wasn't enough young competent talent coming in through the drafts to replace the aging, outgoing talent.

I think Pioli should use free agency to supply depth, and maybe two or three starters in areas of need without breaking the bank. But the draft is where we'll see this team rebuilt.

jmlamerson
02-11-2009, 11:01 AM
Then who? You can talk about Chiefs need replacements. Tank and Dorsey are not starters. The draft will not fix the defensive line problems. And why do you think that Dorsey and Tank will not get better? So then what is your plan if you are going to shoot down everything else?

I can't wait to see how our defense looks with a real defensive coordinator and head coach.

I didn't say Tank and Dorsey aren't starters. I said that they were liabilities on the DL last year. Does anyone disagree? And I didn't say they wouldn't get better. But we need some size in the middle of the field. Dorsey's not going to ever be a space eating sort of DT. Neither's Tank.

Everyone's hoping and praying that Herm didn't screw these draft picks up too and that we don't have to go back to the drawing board for our entire front four.
Everyone's gaga at the thought of getting a legitimate pass rusher like Peppers and Suggs, disregarding the fact that teams were able to run on us at will.

The Chiefs were ranked 30th against the run in 2008, and it would have been 32nd if teams like the Chargers and Bucs didn't have to play catch-up during the 2nd halves of games.

Is the solution to stick with undersized DTs and sign an undersized MLB (Vilma)? Because that seems to be most people's suggestion. Our DL was the worst in NFL history last year, and people want to draft one guy in the 2nd round to fix it. When that doesn't work, people will say we haven't given the young guys a fair shot.

Our new HC/DC are going to start replacing Herm's offense in the front seven, to a man. Watch and see.

My suggestion? Draft Raji with the 3rd pick and draft Michael Johnson in the 2nd round. Sign a good FA DE (Canty?) for the other side. Bench Hali, Boone, Turk, and Tank. That still won't be a great line, but it'll be a whole lot better.

jtandcrew
02-11-2009, 11:10 AM
ATM, I think we need quality but quantity but save a buck. I think Peppers will be to much of a hit to our cap. Yes, I know we have like, 30+ mil room but i think we would be better looking somewhere else. I say NO! Lets look for talent somewhere else

Bike
02-11-2009, 01:24 PM
I didn't say Tank and Dorsey aren't starters. I said that they were liabilities on the DL last year. Does anyone disagree? And I didn't say they wouldn't get better. But we need some size in the middle of the field. Dorsey's not going to ever be a space eating sort of DT. Neither's Tank.

Everyone's hoping and praying that Herm didn't screw these draft picks up too and that we don't have to go back to the drawing board for our entire front four.
Everyone's gaga at the thought of getting a legitimate pass rusher like Peppers and Suggs, disregarding the fact that teams were able to run on us at will.

The Chiefs were ranked 30th against the run in 2008, and it would have been 32nd if teams like the Chargers and Bucs didn't have to play catch-up during the 2nd halves of games.

Is the solution to stick with undersized DTs and sign an undersized MLB (Vilma)? Because that seems to be most people's suggestion. Our DL was the worst in NFL history last year, and people want to draft one guy in the 2nd round to fix it. When that doesn't work, people will say we haven't given the young guys a fair shot.

Our new HC/DC are going to start replacing Herm's offense in the front seven, to a man. Watch and see.

My suggestion? Draft Raji with the 3rd pick and draft Michael Johnson in the 2nd round. Sign a good FA DE (Canty?) for the other side. Bench Hali, Boone, Turk, and Tank. That still won't be a great line, but it'll be a whole lot better.
Thats well and good, but what about OL? No Monroe or Loadholt? Fix it in later rounds? FA?
We need at least 2 OL STARTERS this year.

jmlamerson
02-11-2009, 01:44 PM
Thats well and good, but what about OL? No Monroe or Loadholt? Fix it in later rounds? FA?
We need at least 2 OL STARTERS this year.

We need starters everywhere on our lines and on the team. The cupboard is bare.

I think its looiking like Andre Smith goes #1, and Monroe goes #2. Which makes Raji, Curry, or Crabtree the best #3. If Michael Johnson is available in the 2nd, it's worth the risk given his speed and athleticism.

We do need OL. And I'd go OL in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

But we have problems here that we can't draft our way out of. Our current DL isn't one player away from respectability. It's at least two, probably three, and maybe even four.

Bike
02-11-2009, 02:00 PM
We need starters everywhere on our lines and on the team. The cupboard is bare.

I think its looiking like Andre Smith goes #1, and Monroe goes #2. Which makes Raji, Curry, or Crabtree the best #3. If Michael Johnson is available in the 2nd, it's worth the risk given his speed and athleticism.

We do need OL. And I'd go OL in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

But we have problems here that we can't draft our way out of. Our current DL isn't one player away from respectability. It's at least two, probably three, and maybe even four.
I understand you can't overhaul this entire roster in 1 year. Herm and Carl screwed this thing up bad. But I do think Detroit gets Stafford and Monroe will be there for us...

yashi
02-11-2009, 02:09 PM
We need starters everywhere on our lines and on the team. The cupboard is bare.

I think its looiking like Andre Smith goes #1, and Monroe goes #2. Which makes Raji, Curry, or Crabtree the best #3. If Michael Johnson is available in the 2nd, it's worth the risk given his speed and athleticism.

We do need OL. And I'd go OL in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

But we have problems here that we can't draft our way out of. Our current DL isn't one player away from respectability. It's at least two, probably three, and maybe even four.

well.. it's way too early to tell how the OT and DE are going to rank up before the combine and interviews and such. I've even started hearing reports now that some are considering Jason Smith the best lineman in this draft.

I think OT and DE positions shift all over the mocks after the combine since there's no clear standout at either position. Hopefully 2-3 of the tackles separate themselves in a top tier so we don't have to maybe settle for "next best" like we would if there was 1 standout.

It would also be nice if one DE jumped up as a clear standout, assuming we can't get Peppers or Suggs.

Bike
02-11-2009, 02:31 PM
well.. it's way too early to tell how the OT and DE are going to rank up before the combine and interviews and such. I've even started hearing reports now that some are considering Jason Smith the best lineman in this draft.

I think OT and DE positions shift all over the mocks after the combine since there's no clear standout at either position. Hopefully 2-3 of the tackles separate themselves in a top tier so we don't have to maybe settle for "next best" like we would if there was 1 standout.

It would also be nice if one DE jumped up as a clear standout, assuming we can't get Peppers or Suggs.
Yeah I heard the same thing about Jason Smith.
And some Mocks even have Detroit taking Curry.
Thats why I think we absolutely can't go wrong with OL for our 1st pick. Monroe or Jason Smith will be there.

theaxeeffect4311
02-12-2009, 01:10 AM
I understand you can't overhaul this entire roster in 1 year. Herm and Carl screwed this thing up bad. But I do think Detroit gets Stafford and Monroe will be there for us...

I also think that this season will be mainly offense when it comes to the draft. With the number of offensive linemen in this year's draft, I have to think the O-line will be fixed before the D-line. The best way to fix the D-line is go grab good players through free agency who can start immediately. Julius Peppers would be a good addition because he is a DE. Plus, you cannot underestimate the importance of a DE in run defense. I remember Jared Allen making many tackles on running plays. I think DT will have to wait for this year. It is not a big need when we have two young players developing at the position right now. Give them time to develop. Run defense is all about gap control. Cover 2 defenses are known to be bad against the run. I think once the defense changes its look with a new coordinator, the defense will get better.

And Vilma would be a great linebacker to grab. He may be undersized, but he is a solid tackler and great in pass coverage. Just because a guy is undersized does not mean he will be run over all the time.

Coach
02-12-2009, 01:32 AM
I also think that this season will be mainly offense when it comes to the draft. With the number of offensive linemen in this year's draft, I have to think the O-line will be fixed before the D-line. The best way to fix the D-line is go grab good players through free agency who can start immediately. Julius Peppers would be a good addition because he is a DE. Plus, you cannot underestimate the importance of a DE in run defense. I remember Jared Allen making many tackles on running plays. I think DT will have to wait for this year. It is not a big need when we have two young players developing at the position right now. Give them time to develop. Run defense is all about gap control. Cover 2 defenses are known to be bad against the run. I think once the defense changes its look with a new coordinator, the defense will get better.

And Vilma would be a great linebacker to grab. He may be undersized, but he is a solid tackler and great in pass coverage. Just because a guy is undersized does not mean he will be run over all the time.

Vilma has already said that he would like to stay with the Saints. Saints mgmt has already stated that they would like to retain him. They are just waiting till free agency starts to get a deal done so that they don't have to pay the Jets a draft pick.

chief31
02-13-2009, 11:12 AM
We need starters everywhere on our lines and on the team. The cupboard is bare.

I think its looiking like Andre Smith goes #1, and Monroe goes #2. Which makes Raji, Curry, or Crabtree the best #3. If Michael Johnson is available in the 2nd, it's worth the risk given his speed and athleticism.

We do need OL. And I'd go OL in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

But we have problems here that we can't draft our way out of. Our current DL isn't one player away from respectability. It's at least two, probably three, and maybe even four.

Funny, Jared Allen and a bunch of this seasons backups made that line look pretty good in '07.

That is one player.

Sure, Tank and Dorsey started in '08. But if we can throw generic guys in front of our current DTs and have them do better, then replacing JA at RDE would do just fine at acquiring that respectability that you mentioned.

The difference looks like one player. You can point to Tank and Dorsey, but the DTs from '07 were still here, and they didn't do any better.

The one missing piece was at RDE.

By having a real pass rusher here, you tend to get opponents in alot more 3rd & long situations, and force many more punts. This instatnly makes the entire defense look better statistically.

With Jared here, the rest of the D-line was getting more sacks, just from JA forcing the QB off of his spot and into the other defenders' areas.

How can anyone belive that Donnie Edwards just started sucking *** afer a decade of top-notch play?

And, at the exact same time, Derrick Johnson regressed by leaps and bounds. Not to mention, that Napoleon Harris suddenly decided to become a loser, only to regain his form, after leaving the team and joining The Vikings.

How can we belive that all of these very good players decided to suck, all at once, when it was so obvious that JA was the heart and soul of our defense in '07, just to be sent packing before they all decided to become garbage?

Jared kept this defense going. He was always pumped-up and that attitude rubbed-off on his teammates. It was as plain as day, then.

He also made big plays. He was a league-leading sack-man, and fumble causer.

When he was taken away, there was nothing left.

Remove the spark plug, and the cylinder just won't fire.

I am quite confident that one player made that much of a difference, because I watched it happen.

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 11:27 AM
Funny, Jared Allen and a bunch of this seasons backups made that line look pretty good in '07.

That is one player.

Sure, Tank and Dorsey started in '08. But if we can throw generic guys in front of our current DTs and have them do better, then replacing JA at RDE would do just fine at acquiring that respectability that you mentioned.

The difference looks like one player. You can point to Tank and Dorsey, but the DTs from '07 were still here, and they didn't do any better.

The one missing piece was at RDE.

By having a real pass rusher here, you tend to get opponents in alot more 3rd & long situations, and force many more punts. This instatnly makes the entire defense look better statistically.

With Jared here, the rest of the D-line was getting more sacks, just from JA forcing the QB off of his spot and into the other defenders' areas.

How can anyone belive that Donnie Edwards just started sucking *** afer a decade of top-notch play?

And, at the exact same time, Derrick Johnson regressed by leaps and bounds. Not to mention, that Napoleon Harris suddenly decided to become a loser, only to regain his form, after leaving the team and joining The Vikings.

How can we belive that all of these very good players decided to suck, all at once, when it was so obvious that JA was the heart and soul of our defense in '07, just to be sent packing before they all decided to become garbage?

Jared kept this defense going. He was always pumped-up and that attitude rubbed-off on his teammates. It was as plain as day, then.

He also made big plays. He was a league-leading sack-man, and fumble causer.

When he was taken away, there was nothing left.

Remove the spark plug, and the cylinder just won't fire.

I am quite confident that one player made that much of a difference, because I watched it happen.

Our defense was 28th against the run in 2007. It was 30th last year. We clearly have bad, bad problems stopping the run - and no one is mentioning this because of our historic ineptitude in rushing the passer. Our DL is completely undersized and is getting clobbered year after year. We need big guys in the center of the field if we're ever going to start winning games.

I loved JA on this team, and the decision to trade him for spare parts will go down as one of the dumbest trades in NFL history, but he wouldn't have gotten 14.5 sacks on the Chiefs this year. He'd have been double teamed all year and ended up with less than 10. Then everyone would be b!tching about how he fell off after getting his big contract.

And don't blame Napo! He didn't regress anything. He wasn't allowed on the field by Herm/Gunther because either (1) they wanted to start a young guy at MLB; or (2) he explained to them that the defensive scheme and coaching was idiotic and was cut.

chief31
02-13-2009, 11:41 AM
Our defense was 28th against the run in 2007. It was 30th last year. We clearly have bad, bad problems stopping the run - and no one is mentioning this because of our historic ineptitude in rushing the passer. Our DL is completely undersized and is getting clobbered year after year. We need big guys in the center of the field if we're ever going to start winning games.

I loved JA on this team, and the decision to trade him for spare parts will go down as one of the dumbest trades in NFL history, but he wouldn't have gotten 14.5 sacks on the Chiefs this year. He'd have been double teamed all year and ended up with less than 10. Then everyone would be b!tching about how he fell off after getting his big contract.

And don't blame Napo! He didn't regress anything. He wasn't allowed on the field by Herm/Gunther because either (1) they wanted to start a young guy at MLB; or (2) he explained to them that the defensive scheme and coaching was idiotic and was cut.

I agree with almost all that you are saying, except the speculation of how much of a difference one player made.

Had Jared been here, getting steady double-teams, then that leaves the rest with fewer blockers. And Jared has a tendancy to beat those double-teams anyway.

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 11:56 AM
I agree with almost all that you are saying, except the speculation of how much of a difference one player made.

Had Jared been here, getting steady double-teams, then that leaves the rest with fewer blockers. And Jared has a tendancy to beat those double-teams anyway.

True. And I don't think we're disagreeing as much as we're saying the same thing from different angles.

What bothered me the most in 2008 wasn't our pass rush. Was it historically bad? Yes. But what bothered me most was our inability to stop the run in 2007 and 2008. Because that just wore our defense out. Where a guy like Dorsey will need a few years to become a legitimate pass rushing, Kevin Williams/Warren Sapp type, he shouldn't be getting blown off the line and run on his entire rookie year. Tank definitely shouldn't be getting blown off the line his second year. I just have the feeling that with those two as our DTs in 2008, it wouldn't matter if we had Reggie White and Michael Strahan in their primes as our DEs. Teams would just run it down our gut and wear us out all game.

I agree that it's ridiculuously short-sighted to write DTs off after a year or two. But we should be sitting here praying Tank and Dorsey get better - not saying that they're already good. Or we should be coming up with a plan to upgrade the position.

chief31
02-13-2009, 12:09 PM
True. And I don't think we're disagreeing as much as we're saying the same thing from different angles.

What bothered me the most in 2008 wasn't our pass rush. Was it historically bad? Yes. But what bothered me most was our inability to stop the run in 2007 and 2008. Because that just wore our defense out. Where a guy like Dorsey will need a few years to become a legitimate pass rushing, Kevin Williams/Warren Sapp type, he shouldn't be getting blown off the line and run on his entire rookie year. Tank definitely shouldn't be getting blown off the line his second year. I just have the feeling that with those two as our DTs in 2008, it wouldn't matter if we had Reggie White and Michael Strahan in their primes as our DEs. Teams would just run it down our gut and wear us out all game.

I agree that it's ridiculuously short-sighted to write DTs off after a year or two. But we should be sitting here praying Tank and Dorsey get better - not saying that they're already good. Or we should be coming up with a plan to upgrade the position.

I'll tell ya what I liked about our DTs in '08.

They actually had some pretty decent first halves of games in the second half of the season.

That is the only thing that gives me any optimism about Tank at all. And seems to be the one bright spot in an otherwise ugly debut season for Dorsey.

In '07, the reasons that the run defense looks that bad on paper seems to be two primary factors. The way they "gave-up" down the stretch of the season and the fact that they were on the field, and trailing, a ridiculous amount.

That's just a whole lot of pressure, as well as quantity of trying to defend the run, coupled with a very grim, late-season, attitude about it.

Codac
02-13-2009, 12:33 PM
You just love to talk about our DT's don't you jmlamerson? We get it you don't think they are any good. You want an upgrade yada yada. This post was about Peppers. Not them. Take that somewhere else, i'm sick of hearing of it.

About Peppers. Its not gonna happen. Plain and simple. WILL NOT HAPPEN. So quit thinking it. He will either be Tagged and sent to someplace for 1st or 2nd Rounder, or be a ridiculously expensive aquisition for someone who has a shot at winning the Super Bowl. Either way he is going to a CURRENT contender for the Super Bowl.

The Chiefs aren't that team. Not this year. Just another year of rebuilding. Except its the Front Office thats getting the makeover this year around.

chief31
02-13-2009, 12:53 PM
You just love to talk about our DT's don't you jmlamerson? We get it you don't think they are any good. You want an upgrade yada yada. This post was about Peppers. Not them. Take that somewhere else, i'm sick of hearing of it.

About Peppers. Its not gonna happen. Plain and simple. WILL NOT HAPPEN. So quit thinking it. He will either be Tagged and sent to someplace for 1st or 2nd Rounder, or be a ridiculously expensive aquisition for someone who has a shot at winning the Super Bowl. Either way he is going to a CURRENT contender for the Super Bowl.

The Chiefs aren't that team. Not this year. Just another year of rebuilding. Except its the Front Office thats getting the makeover this year around.

Seriously, if you don't understand how DTs are relative to discussions about DEs, then maybe you are in the wrong discussion.

Wait...


Big Deal on Peppers...He averages 10 sack a year, that's a little over 1/2 a sack per game plus he did not play with any slouches at Carolina.

I think we can find someone that can put some heat on the pass rush for less money and it a bit younger.

You actually brought this up on your own. The relation of one position to others.

So, why isn't anyone else allowed to discuss it?

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 01:13 PM
You just love to talk about our DT's don't you jmlamerson? We get it you don't think they are any good. You want an upgrade yada yada. This post was about Peppers. Not them. Take that somewhere else, i'm sick of hearing of it.

About Peppers. Its not gonna happen. Plain and simple. WILL NOT HAPPEN. So quit thinking it. He will either be Tagged and sent to someplace for 1st or 2nd Rounder, or be a ridiculously expensive aquisition for someone who has a shot at winning the Super Bowl. Either way he is going to a CURRENT contender for the Super Bowl.

The Chiefs aren't that team. Not this year. Just another year of rebuilding. Except its the Front Office thats getting the makeover this year around.

If you don't like reading what I post, put me on ignore or skip what I write. It isn't your thread, and I'll probably keep posting here.

The question is how to improve our pass rush. Some people want to improve it by improving our DEs. I don't think it will do any good until the DT unit is fixed. That we're so weak against the run that an elite pass rusher is just a waste of money right now.

FYI, I like reading your posts, because it gives me perspective on how truly ignorant a fan can be. Does it ever bother you that you've been wrong about . . . everything, so far?

Codac
02-13-2009, 03:17 PM
If you don't like reading what I post, put me on ignore or skip what I write. It isn't your thread, and I'll probably keep posting here.

The question is how to improve our pass rush. Some people want to improve it by improving our DEs. I don't think it will do any good until the DT unit is fixed. That we're so weak against the run that an elite pass rusher is just a waste of money right now.

FYI, I like reading your posts, because it gives me perspective on how truly ignorant a fan can be. Does it ever bother you that you've been wrong about . . . everything, so far?

Ok. One, i'm not ignorant. Two, I'm not wrong about everything. Three, I haven't been saying we need to get an expensive "elite" pass rusher. I'm actually against it, if you had been paying attention.

The Cover 2 is a scheme that is supposed to reduce the efficiency of the passing attack. With good coverage you give the DL more time to get to the QB. I know what the Cover 2 is. But most QB's will find a way to get rid of the ball before getting touched by one of the 4-5 guys rushing. Thats where the Cover 2's real scheme comes in. Its about pressure and coverage. Not sacks.

Codac
02-13-2009, 03:18 PM
Ok. One, i'm not ignorant. Two, I'm not wrong about everything. Three, I haven't been saying we need to get an expensive "elite" pass rusher. I'm actually against it, if you had been paying attention.

The Cover 2 is a scheme that is supposed to reduce the efficiency of the passing attack. With good coverage you give the DL more time to get to the QB. I know what the Cover 2 is. But most QB's will find a way to get rid of the ball before getting touched by one of the 4-5 guys rushing. Thats where the Cover 2's real scheme comes in. Its about pressure and coverage. Not sacks.

Ok the Cover 2 thing was supposed to go to another Thread. Sorry about that.

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 04:18 PM
Ok the Cover 2 thing was supposed to go to another Thread. Sorry about that.

Don't worry. I'm a nice guy. I forgive you for your rudeness, your mistakes, etc.

And I never wrote you wanted Peppers. I was explaining why a discussion of Peppers' value to the organziation necessarily entails a discussion of our DT situation. He'd only be valuable to a team with a big, established set of DTs.

Codac
02-13-2009, 05:01 PM
Don't worry. I'm a nice guy. I forgive you for your rudeness, your mistakes, etc.

And I never wrote you wanted Peppers. I was explaining why a discussion of Peppers' value to the organziation necessarily entails a discussion of our DT situation. He'd only be valuable to a team with a big, established set of DTs.

I'm not rude.

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 05:02 PM
I'm not rude.

Really? Do you forget posting:


You just love to talk about our DT's don't you jmlamerson? We get it you don't think they are any good. You want an upgrade yada yada. This post was about Peppers. Not them. Take that somewhere else, i'm sick of hearing of it.

I don't recall that being very polite. Or prevoked.

Canada
02-13-2009, 05:03 PM
Really? Do you forget posting:



I don't recall that being very polite. Or prevoked.

You don't recall provoking people? hmmmm.... funny how everyone seems to have it in for you.

jmlamerson
02-13-2009, 05:17 PM
You don't recall provoking people? hmmmm.... funny how everyone seems to have it in for you.

I've provoked several people. And they've provoked me.

I never provoked Codac.

And most people on here love me. How could they not?

marloweopatchiefs
02-14-2009, 02:12 PM
well i still hope they pursue peppers. I liked the guy. he's old but not as old as ray lewis

Chiefster
02-14-2009, 02:24 PM
well i still hope they pursue peppers. I liked the guy. he's old but not as old as ray lewis

Thank you for bringing the thread back on topic!

Rep! :bananen_smilies046:

kcmostwanted
02-15-2009, 01:07 AM
Well, Peppers is quoted as saying that if Carolina attempts to put the franchise tag on him he will deny it and request a out right trade, I think it's time we sprinkle some Peppers on the Chiefs D!!!!

OH everyone on here is hilarious... Julius Peppers will not be in a KC chiefs uniform!!!! You guys can quote me on that!

He has said that he wants to play in a 3-4 Defense and we're about 5 years away from bringing in the right personnel to play that scheme..

You heard it here first....I think he's going to end up in Denver!!!.. 1st reason: they're switching to the 3-4... 2nd reason: they have a butt load of cap space!..3rd Reason: The AFC west has been a joke lately so he'll have lots of opp. to play in the Playoffs.

DT14PRIEST
02-15-2009, 01:25 AM
OH everyone on here is hilarious... Julius Peppers will not be in a KC chiefs uniform!!!! You guys can quote me on that!

He has said that he wants to play in a 3-4 Defense and we're about 5 years away from bringing in the right personnel to play that scheme..

You heard it here first....I think he's going to end up in Denver!!!.. 1st reason: they're switching to the 3-4... 2nd reason: they have a butt load of cap space!..3rd Reason: The AFC west has been a joke lately so he'll have lots of opp. to play in the Playoffs.

I dont think he'll be in KC either but saying that Denver is anymore competent a team (personnel wise) at running a 3-4 than KC is ludicrous.

marloweopatchiefs
02-15-2009, 02:06 PM
OH everyone on here is hilarious... Julius Peppers will not be in a KC chiefs uniform!!!! You guys can quote me on that!

He has said that he wants to play in a 3-4 Defense and we're about 5 years away from bringing in the right personnel to play that scheme..

You heard it here first....I think he's going to end up in Denver!!!.. 1st reason: they're switching to the 3-4... 2nd reason: they have a butt load of cap space!..3rd Reason: The AFC west has been a joke lately so he'll have lots of opp. to play in the Playoffs.

how do you we are 5 years away from switching? WE don't even have a defensive coordinator yet. So switching is not out of the question and neither is peppers coming to kc. unlike you i have an open mind so i guess we shall see what happens. you are forgetting also we don't have edwareds and carl peterson anymore so don't be surprised if kc goes for big name players like peppers finally through FA.

jmlamerson
02-15-2009, 02:40 PM
how do you we are 5 years away from switching? WE don't even have a defensive coordinator yet. So switching is not out of the question and neither is peppers coming to kc. unlike you i have an open mind so i guess we shall see what happens. you are forgetting also we don't have edwareds and carl peterson anymore so don't be surprised if kc goes for big name players like peppers finally through FA.

Yeah, we have Pioli. Did Pioli ever sign a big name FA to either his OL or DL with the Pats? No. It isn't how he works. He'll get good, cheap players in FA for the lines while getting youth in the draft.

If he spends big money on defense, it will be at LB.

marloweopatchiefs
02-16-2009, 02:06 PM
Yeah, we have Pioli. Did Pioli ever sign a big name FA to either his OL or DL with the Pats? No. It isn't how he works. He'll get good, cheap players in FA for the lines while getting youth in the draft.

If he spends big money on defense, it will be at LB.


that is fine with me as well. I know it's not all about big name players but i still hope he goes for peppers. btw peppers is only 29..he's not that old!